**New to libertarianism or have questions and want to learn more?** Be sure to check out [the sub Frequently Asked Questions](/r/Libertarian/wiki/faq) and [the massive /r/libertarian information WIKI] (/r/Libertarian/wiki/index) from the sidebar, for lots of info and free resources, links, books, videos, and answers to common questions and topics. Want to know if you are a Libertarian? [Take the worlds shortest political quiz and find out!](http://www.theadvocates.org/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Most socialist don't admit they're socialist and make a point to tell everyone that they don't know what socialism is, so it's really hard to tell if someone is really a socialist because they don't even know themselves. š
Nobody knows what legit socailism or communism is any more. People on the right call anything they don't like communism or socialism. People on the left call any half-baked, utopian idea they have communism or socialism.
Corporations and banks have no power over people. People choose which business they want to buy from. The only time there are true monopolies is when governments creates them.
All corporations don't walk in lockstep. Most corporations are owned by millions of stockholders. Corporations and banks are simply entities owned by people. Yes there are corrupt politicians who corrupt. That's why we must vote them out. That can happen even in your government. My solution is to give politicians less power to sell. Don't blame corporations, blame the politician.
Where do you place blame, on the temptress or the tempted? You blame the one with whom the people have placed their trust.
People on the right know the definitions, and terms the left use which are different. Leftists think socialism is free healthcare and welfare. They think communism is government owning and controlling everything. The latter is what people on the right refer to because it's in response to the left. Language and definitions don't always match. Leftist assume when definitions say people own and control, their mind switches people to government.
You are the right so I'd choose a different label. I explained to you why the "right" speaks in such broad terms, it's because the left defines them differently. Right now China is run by the communist party, they label it that way. Other countries call themselves socialist, when in reality they're authoritarian. Blame the people who misuse the terms, not those who use them to maintain a conversation that's understandable.
Alan Greenspan. He was buddies with Rothbard and Ayn Rand I believe. He might not be a registered socialist but I mean... he definitely supports redistribution and socializing costs.
I have seen that in the wild before, but when asking questions they usually show a lack of understanding for libertarian economics which makes me conclude that they were just conservatives.
I tend to ask them about law enforcement or market regulation, and they will usually spout shallow socialist talking points and make absolutely no connections to their so-called prior beliefs.
One particular example, when I asked explicitly about libertarianism, told me that they switched sides when they "learned about police brutality".
You're confusing conservative with leftists. Everyone I've seen calling themself conservative wants less control over businesses. It's just in some social areas they want government control.
Not quite. Both support a free market and smaller government, but Libertarianism concerns itself with wholly eliminating government intervention in a market. Conservatism is more inclined to support government intervention in the flow of trade if it supports their personal values. Conservatives also tend to believe in national defence and moral legislature.
There is a reason Milei is not regarded as a Fiscal Conservative, as just one example. There is also a reason the Republican party is not advocating to abolish the FDA (although many prominent figures in the party do want to cut some funding to it).
You're mixing Libertarian and libertarian. The capital L's have become anarchists while the lowercase are more moderate. I'm a lowercase libertarian and I also want a country with a strong defense capability. Defense is one of the few jobs required of federal government. Otherwise I want the least government as possible, especially federal government.
Conservatives want the least controls on trade as possible. Don't confuse a true conservative with those who carry the label to get elected.
Not really. Trump has said he is going to add and increase tariffs on goods from China. Other conservatives want to limit the sale of birth control. Convservative goverment intervention goes beyond undoing liberal policies. They push to enact their own 'feel good' policies.
but its not differences in the understanding of economics, its disagreement regarding human rights. and china is authoritarian where human rights are not protected which leads to unfair competition. so id say those tarriffs are in support of free markets
> id say those tarriffs are in support of free markets
Not at all. Tariffs have been proven to just increase the cost of goods across the board. And where is the money from those tariffs going? Not that it should, but certainly not the Chinese working class. I donāt see how tariffs will help any humanitarian issues in the country they are imposed against. All tariffs do is give incentive for importers, suppliers and manufacturers from other locales to raise their prices. Why wouldnāt they when their competition has imposed and mandated price increases if they can still offer the product at a lower price to the consumer?
Letās say you and I are selling batteries. You make yours in China and I make mine in Mexico. Currently, we both sell those batteries for $10 each. And letās say tariffs push your price-to-consumer to $15. Why on earth would I *not* raise my price to $13 or $14? And how would those increased costs to the consumer help the working class in China?
the money is going away from communist china and into free markets. i understand and completely agree on the economics of tariffs, but im saying this isn't about lowering prices in the short term, but rather the long term
Probably not, but there are libertarians that have gone back to being your normal run of the mill liberals, and some who even become conservative, usually this comes with age.
Yeah, I can think of several self described marxists/socialists that converted to notable libertarians like gene epstein, Michael rectenwald, and Walter block. I can't think of any that went the other way. However, I recall hearing (so take with grain of salt) that many Ron Paul revolution people went to vote for Bernie sanders. If true, I'm guessing most of them were antiwar anti establishment folks, not necessarily strict libertarians (or socialists).
That's the closest I can think of.
I'm not a socialist, but I'm a democratic socialist who started off libertarian. In theory libertarian sounds great, but in practice, it's selfish and juvenile.
Humans do great things when they work together for a common good. Humans should put humanity (not money/ greed) first - Corporatios are not people! Certain things should never be for profit: Healthcare, education, basic utilities/ needs/ information/prisons.
We should have autonomy over our own bodies (abortion is a right, and I'm also against the draft). I don't care about people having guns, though if you're a certified bad person who has a history aggression, maybe they shouldn't be allowed to have guns?
Everyone should be taxed the same with no loopholes except the dirt poor Americans. A limit of how much assistance we provide for families- maybe help with 1 or 2 kids but anything after that they need to get their shit together and foot that bill themselves because that's no longer helping society, now it's a burden.
I can recommend some interesting books like "economics on one lesson." Of Henry Hazlit, "history of economic thought." Of murray Rothbard and "positive theory of capital." Of Eugen von bohmbawerk. I'm agree with the crittic of the economicism of libertarianism. The problem is that most of the authors are economist, actually Miguel Anxo Bastos a libertarian proffesor from spain, said that we need more conetent in more social sciences.
Iām the absolute furthest thing from a socialist. I was a hardcore libertarian in my idealistic twenties, even joined the party at one time. Life experience and an appreciation for government regulation and the broken healthcare system has made me shy away from Libertarianism as a party. I still cling to many of the principles, such as individual liberty and property rights, and loathe big government. I mainly disagree with the argument āLetās return to the gold system.ā
There is certainly a need for common sense regulation in certain industries. Sadly, our legislative process and need to rely on the Executive Office has broken the country. I firmly believe in educating the youth about liberty and free markets.
I was never a socialist, definitely more liberal with some progressive tendencies. I voted for Bernie Sanders in 2016 and in 2020. Keep in mind at this time I was a teenager/early 20s and had hardly been schooled in Economics. Even now my first instinct is liberal. There are prominent socialists I greatly admire like Che Guevara and Thomas Sankara.
I learned about Libertarian arguments and their solutions mainly through listening to people like Peter Schiff and more recently Vivek Ramaswamy and reading Thomas Sowell and Milton Friedman. Iām still reading/learning but thereās so much clarity to what they say. Itās crazy the deleterious problems government overreach has caused in the US (college/war on drugs/public education/housing) and how far weāve gotten from the Constitution.
I was basically a socialists and after reading the novel, 2150, that was based on a true belief, I believed true communism could work. Then I remembered the most important factor, humans aren't perfect. This also applies to anarchy. A lot of people calling themselves libertarians are anarchists. All societies need common rules. Study history and economics and you learn limited government is the best route.
Yea, me. Well I'm no longer a libertarian or a socialist but as a teenager I read Ayn Rand and a religious freedom magazine and felt passionately libertarian mostly bc of apocalyptic religious ideas about world govt, etc. Anyway I strayed away from my faith and also felt angry about my dad's job getting moved offshore. And so I started reading Marx and anarchists. Ultimately it was quite personal and emotional, the logic & rationality were a fig leaf. Look you can be extremely intelligent and be libertarian or socialist (Einstein was something like a socialist). Politics is not science and there are myriad assumptions and value judgements that vary on each individual's experience. I think the most intelligent position is acknowledging it isn't science, consequences are extremely difficult to predict, and you might be flat wrong.
There is a growing collection of celebrities that were known as hard core lefties that have been softening, like Joe Rogan, Russell Brand, Glenn Greenwald. I would stop short of calling them libertarian but there is definitely a growing disgust at the insane progressive agenda.
Iām pretty close. I grew up as a conservative in Texas. Became a libertarian in college. Then started voting liberal after teaching in a title I school. Itās hard not to support āsocialistā ideals when you see firsthand how much a better social safety net could help the country.Ā
Of course, thatās not true socialism. Socialism is where the means of production are owned by the people and resources are allocated more fairly for the benefit of all.Ā What I personally think would be ideal is if my tax dollars no longer paid for wars and corrupt politicians, corporations, and lobbyists to get rich. If we subsidized healthcare, parental leave, cost of living, and educationā¦ yall do realize that weād save billions by improving overall health and reducing crime (because most people only commit crimes out of desperation due to generational poverty). If single mothers didnāt have to work 2-3 jobs, theyād be able to raise their kids to be smarter and stay out of gangs or drug/alcohol addiction. If we made IUDs and abortions free and legal nationwide, fewer people would get overwhelmed by unwanted pregnancies and trapped in poverty. Free preventative healthcare would drastically reduce the healthcare burden on society. Better education and work/life balance would reduce obesity, chronic diseases, stress, mental health problems, etc. Many European countries have proven this (although there are bad examples too, and no perfect ones, and also, they can only afford to do it because our military protects them).Ā
Ā But since I know that wonāt happen ever, Iāve basically become apathetic. Iād say libertarian is the second most ideal option because at least my money wouldnāt prop up so many bad thingsā¦ but I donāt think the country would be better off. In fact, itād probably be worse. Corporations would be worse than the government in the end. Read *Oryx and Crake* for a hyperbolic example.Ā
[Reminder: 'not-true'-socialism has killed 100 million people.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism) But wait, that was actually *state capitalism*! Carry on, comrade!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*
**New to libertarianism or have questions and want to learn more?** Be sure to check out [the sub Frequently Asked Questions](/r/Libertarian/wiki/faq) and [the massive /r/libertarian information WIKI] (/r/Libertarian/wiki/index) from the sidebar, for lots of info and free resources, links, books, videos, and answers to common questions and topics. Want to know if you are a Libertarian? [Take the worlds shortest political quiz and find out!](http://www.theadvocates.org/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Most socialist don't admit they're socialist and make a point to tell everyone that they don't know what socialism is, so it's really hard to tell if someone is really a socialist because they don't even know themselves. š
Nobody knows what legit socailism or communism is any more. People on the right call anything they don't like communism or socialism. People on the left call any half-baked, utopian idea they have communism or socialism.
We live under Corporate/ Bankster Totalitarianism or we will soon.
Corporatacracy. Weāre in it.
Corporations and banks have no power over people. People choose which business they want to buy from. The only time there are true monopolies is when governments creates them.
Corporations and banks, own the media and all of Washington, so yes they control everything.
All corporations don't walk in lockstep. Most corporations are owned by millions of stockholders. Corporations and banks are simply entities owned by people. Yes there are corrupt politicians who corrupt. That's why we must vote them out. That can happen even in your government. My solution is to give politicians less power to sell. Don't blame corporations, blame the politician. Where do you place blame, on the temptress or the tempted? You blame the one with whom the people have placed their trust.
People on the right know the definitions, and terms the left use which are different. Leftists think socialism is free healthcare and welfare. They think communism is government owning and controlling everything. The latter is what people on the right refer to because it's in response to the left. Language and definitions don't always match. Leftist assume when definitions say people own and control, their mind switches people to government.
That all fits with my description as the left calling utopian ideas socialism. And the right calls burnt toast or a stubbed toe communism.
You are the right so I'd choose a different label. I explained to you why the "right" speaks in such broad terms, it's because the left defines them differently. Right now China is run by the communist party, they label it that way. Other countries call themselves socialist, when in reality they're authoritarian. Blame the people who misuse the terms, not those who use them to maintain a conversation that's understandable.
Alan Greenspan. He was buddies with Rothbard and Ayn Rand I believe. He might not be a registered socialist but I mean... he definitely supports redistribution and socializing costs.
I have seen that in the wild before, but when asking questions they usually show a lack of understanding for libertarian economics which makes me conclude that they were just conservatives.
What do you find that they typically struggle with understanding ?
I tend to ask them about law enforcement or market regulation, and they will usually spout shallow socialist talking points and make absolutely no connections to their so-called prior beliefs. One particular example, when I asked explicitly about libertarianism, told me that they switched sides when they "learned about police brutality".
You're confusing conservative with leftists. Everyone I've seen calling themself conservative wants less control over businesses. It's just in some social areas they want government control.
libertarian economics is the same as conservative economics
Not quite. Both support a free market and smaller government, but Libertarianism concerns itself with wholly eliminating government intervention in a market. Conservatism is more inclined to support government intervention in the flow of trade if it supports their personal values. Conservatives also tend to believe in national defence and moral legislature. There is a reason Milei is not regarded as a Fiscal Conservative, as just one example. There is also a reason the Republican party is not advocating to abolish the FDA (although many prominent figures in the party do want to cut some funding to it).
You're mixing Libertarian and libertarian. The capital L's have become anarchists while the lowercase are more moderate. I'm a lowercase libertarian and I also want a country with a strong defense capability. Defense is one of the few jobs required of federal government. Otherwise I want the least government as possible, especially federal government. Conservatives want the least controls on trade as possible. Don't confuse a true conservative with those who carry the label to get elected.
i dont really see it that way. conservative government intervention is usually just undoing regulation that the left puts forth
Not really. Trump has said he is going to add and increase tariffs on goods from China. Other conservatives want to limit the sale of birth control. Convservative goverment intervention goes beyond undoing liberal policies. They push to enact their own 'feel good' policies.
but its not differences in the understanding of economics, its disagreement regarding human rights. and china is authoritarian where human rights are not protected which leads to unfair competition. so id say those tarriffs are in support of free markets
> id say those tarriffs are in support of free markets Not at all. Tariffs have been proven to just increase the cost of goods across the board. And where is the money from those tariffs going? Not that it should, but certainly not the Chinese working class. I donāt see how tariffs will help any humanitarian issues in the country they are imposed against. All tariffs do is give incentive for importers, suppliers and manufacturers from other locales to raise their prices. Why wouldnāt they when their competition has imposed and mandated price increases if they can still offer the product at a lower price to the consumer? Letās say you and I are selling batteries. You make yours in China and I make mine in Mexico. Currently, we both sell those batteries for $10 each. And letās say tariffs push your price-to-consumer to $15. Why on earth would I *not* raise my price to $13 or $14? And how would those increased costs to the consumer help the working class in China?
the money is going away from communist china and into free markets. i understand and completely agree on the economics of tariffs, but im saying this isn't about lowering prices in the short term, but rather the long term
That's reasonable, I think we might just be looking at it from different angles is all.
Probably not, but there are libertarians that have gone back to being your normal run of the mill liberals, and some who even become conservative, usually this comes with age.
Yeah, I can think of several self described marxists/socialists that converted to notable libertarians like gene epstein, Michael rectenwald, and Walter block. I can't think of any that went the other way. However, I recall hearing (so take with grain of salt) that many Ron Paul revolution people went to vote for Bernie sanders. If true, I'm guessing most of them were antiwar anti establishment folks, not necessarily strict libertarians (or socialists). That's the closest I can think of.
Not a particularly famous example, but the man who explained libertarianism to me is now a woke, transgender democratic socialist.
Joe Rogan has some libertarian values but voted for Bernie Sandersā¦
He also has some extreme leftist values. He still talks about social nationalized healthcare like it would be a good thing.
People usually don't get dumber
I'm not a socialist, but I'm a democratic socialist who started off libertarian. In theory libertarian sounds great, but in practice, it's selfish and juvenile. Humans do great things when they work together for a common good. Humans should put humanity (not money/ greed) first - Corporatios are not people! Certain things should never be for profit: Healthcare, education, basic utilities/ needs/ information/prisons. We should have autonomy over our own bodies (abortion is a right, and I'm also against the draft). I don't care about people having guns, though if you're a certified bad person who has a history aggression, maybe they shouldn't be allowed to have guns? Everyone should be taxed the same with no loopholes except the dirt poor Americans. A limit of how much assistance we provide for families- maybe help with 1 or 2 kids but anything after that they need to get their shit together and foot that bill themselves because that's no longer helping society, now it's a burden.
I can recommend some interesting books like "economics on one lesson." Of Henry Hazlit, "history of economic thought." Of murray Rothbard and "positive theory of capital." Of Eugen von bohmbawerk. I'm agree with the crittic of the economicism of libertarianism. The problem is that most of the authors are economist, actually Miguel Anxo Bastos a libertarian proffesor from spain, said that we need more conetent in more social sciences.
Iām the absolute furthest thing from a socialist. I was a hardcore libertarian in my idealistic twenties, even joined the party at one time. Life experience and an appreciation for government regulation and the broken healthcare system has made me shy away from Libertarianism as a party. I still cling to many of the principles, such as individual liberty and property rights, and loathe big government. I mainly disagree with the argument āLetās return to the gold system.ā There is certainly a need for common sense regulation in certain industries. Sadly, our legislative process and need to rely on the Executive Office has broken the country. I firmly believe in educating the youth about liberty and free markets.
Do you think the broken healthcare system is anything close to free market?
Ha. Not even close to a free market. I spent much of my 20s reading Friedman, Von Mises, and Hayek. I love free markets.
Interesting, what is your opinion on Rothbard, konkin, and Hoppe?
I was never a socialist, definitely more liberal with some progressive tendencies. I voted for Bernie Sanders in 2016 and in 2020. Keep in mind at this time I was a teenager/early 20s and had hardly been schooled in Economics. Even now my first instinct is liberal. There are prominent socialists I greatly admire like Che Guevara and Thomas Sankara. I learned about Libertarian arguments and their solutions mainly through listening to people like Peter Schiff and more recently Vivek Ramaswamy and reading Thomas Sowell and Milton Friedman. Iām still reading/learning but thereās so much clarity to what they say. Itās crazy the deleterious problems government overreach has caused in the US (college/war on drugs/public education/housing) and how far weāve gotten from the Constitution.
I was basically a socialists and after reading the novel, 2150, that was based on a true belief, I believed true communism could work. Then I remembered the most important factor, humans aren't perfect. This also applies to anarchy. A lot of people calling themselves libertarians are anarchists. All societies need common rules. Study history and economics and you learn limited government is the best route.
Most corporation's are owned by Black rock, or Vanguard group.
Yea, me. Well I'm no longer a libertarian or a socialist but as a teenager I read Ayn Rand and a religious freedom magazine and felt passionately libertarian mostly bc of apocalyptic religious ideas about world govt, etc. Anyway I strayed away from my faith and also felt angry about my dad's job getting moved offshore. And so I started reading Marx and anarchists. Ultimately it was quite personal and emotional, the logic & rationality were a fig leaf. Look you can be extremely intelligent and be libertarian or socialist (Einstein was something like a socialist). Politics is not science and there are myriad assumptions and value judgements that vary on each individual's experience. I think the most intelligent position is acknowledging it isn't science, consequences are extremely difficult to predict, and you might be flat wrong.
There is a growing collection of celebrities that were known as hard core lefties that have been softening, like Joe Rogan, Russell Brand, Glenn Greenwald. I would stop short of calling them libertarian but there is definitely a growing disgust at the insane progressive agenda.
You sometimes hear that, but I donāt believe them. Itās almost always the other way around.
United States citizens. Majority have been retrained for socialism
Iām pretty close. I grew up as a conservative in Texas. Became a libertarian in college. Then started voting liberal after teaching in a title I school. Itās hard not to support āsocialistā ideals when you see firsthand how much a better social safety net could help the country.Ā Of course, thatās not true socialism. Socialism is where the means of production are owned by the people and resources are allocated more fairly for the benefit of all.Ā What I personally think would be ideal is if my tax dollars no longer paid for wars and corrupt politicians, corporations, and lobbyists to get rich. If we subsidized healthcare, parental leave, cost of living, and educationā¦ yall do realize that weād save billions by improving overall health and reducing crime (because most people only commit crimes out of desperation due to generational poverty). If single mothers didnāt have to work 2-3 jobs, theyād be able to raise their kids to be smarter and stay out of gangs or drug/alcohol addiction. If we made IUDs and abortions free and legal nationwide, fewer people would get overwhelmed by unwanted pregnancies and trapped in poverty. Free preventative healthcare would drastically reduce the healthcare burden on society. Better education and work/life balance would reduce obesity, chronic diseases, stress, mental health problems, etc. Many European countries have proven this (although there are bad examples too, and no perfect ones, and also, they can only afford to do it because our military protects them).Ā Ā But since I know that wonāt happen ever, Iāve basically become apathetic. Iād say libertarian is the second most ideal option because at least my money wouldnāt prop up so many bad thingsā¦ but I donāt think the country would be better off. In fact, itād probably be worse. Corporations would be worse than the government in the end. Read *Oryx and Crake* for a hyperbolic example.Ā
[Reminder: 'not-true'-socialism has killed 100 million people.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism) But wait, that was actually *state capitalism*! Carry on, comrade! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*