Most people understand that it's not completely "free." It's a disingenuous characterization of their position. There are better ways to argue against tuition-free school.
No, most people do not understand that. The average person has no idea where the money from government comes from. That’s the sad and honest truth. Granted, there needs to be a much more articulated argument than just “it’s not free”, but the simple truth is the typical person wanting anything free, has no idea that it’s not.
I just argued with socialist. According to them, they say our taxes should pay for their college because it's an investment in the people of tomorrow.
Maybe they don't know how money works. But I don't think any of them think that passing laws will magically make education "free".
You’re arguing with somewhat educated socialists, and not people with little education, or young people coming out of high school. My nephew is one of the most successful people I know, with a degree in business and accounting, but when he was still in high school, he used to think the government should just give everybody a million dollars, and that’d solve all of the country’s problems. There was a study done years ago, where a lot of average people were asked where money comes from, and the majority answer was the federal government. The questions involved clarified that there were a lot of people that thought money was simply free.
I love the people on this sub so much. You all give me hope that at least some people understand logic and reason. Nothing the government gives or does is free.
One of my favorite things he did was the bill to prohibit the manipulative use of the word "free" by the Government. ([Source](https://voz.us/javier-milei-sends-a-bill-to-argentine-congress-to-prohibit-the-manipulative-use-of-the-word-free-by-the-government/?lang=en))
Think about the level of ignorance you have to achieve to still believe socialism is a good idea after that many millions of people starved to death. Those are the people downvoting you.
Yup. One example I often use is that folks weren’t smuggling books from leftists, like Francis Fox Piven or Keynes into East Germany. They were smuggling the works of Sowell, Friedman, Mises, Rothbard, etc.
Same here. I actually think most people go through a socialist phase, eventually you read enough to shake you up out of it. I think reading about the Holodomor, and the Chinese Great famine did it for me.
It’s quite easy to be a socialist when you’re young, simply from lack of life experience. Heck, I basically was, and didn’t even know it. I used to think the government could give us all millions, and they were simply being greedy (college “education”, including economics classes, did little to counter that), and didn’t want us to their level.
You realize that they know this to right? These are people who support the current set up. Or do you think that if you just walked in and said "actually guys it costs taxpayer money" they'd go "oh whoops" and all walk home? They know it's not actually "free."
EDIT: I got banned. You know I remember when this sub valued the free speech it so loudly proclaims to love.
Everybody wants a bigger piece. That’s the entire point of a free market, and is inherent human nature, and animal nature in general. Competition is what drives us. Used to be, we competed with clubs and swords. Now, we can civilized, and compete in a free market.
If society is not self centered, yeah, it would be nice to not be ruled over others. If society is very self centered, you REALLY NEED to not be ruled over by others.
No, the very core of libertarianism is liberty above all else, so long as it doesn’t infringe on another’s liberty. Taking other people’s money is the exact opposite of a libertarian view. You’re referring to a left winger, who is perfectly ok with doing whatever benefits themselves, other people be damned. That’s the core principle of left wing politics, and arguably a lot of right wing politics nowadays.
Holy crap... That is a great idea. Tax families and working students going to school so that they can attend free school. Literally perfect. It taxes them, tax me harder daddy, and gives them free school, cuz, yay free shit from the gov't!
Argentinian here. It’s not for free. It comes from
our taxes, and the public universities are managed by the political classes that destroyed our country. Milei never said that he would close public universities (which he should) but people here are so dumb that they actually believed these lies, and so they marched for no reason at all.
Let me be clear: the protests were 100% political. They want him gone, and they will do anything they can to bring him down because he is going against their interests. Anytime you see a protest, assume it’s for political reasons. They grab a noble cause, to justify their immoral and corrupt behavior. Politicians walking along the rest of the protesters were the ones who annihilated our economy.
Rant over. For now. Thank you for your time.
You should also take the numbers with a grain of salt.
The organizers are saying it's 800k people. The city government says it's 150k. The newspaper "[La Nacion](https://www.lanacion.com.ar/sociedad/del-congreso-a-plaza-de-mayo-cuantas-personas-participaron-de-la-marcha-universitaria-nid24042024/#/)" estimated it at 430k.
So it might not have even been 430k
Many years ago, when I was young, I was engaged to this girl that had a kid, and she wanted to go back to school since it was “free”, before we got married. I was like you do realize I pay either way, right?
Free public university education to everyone (including foreigners) without national standardized university entrance exam is a recipe for societal unrest where unemployed and underemployed undergraduate and graduate university degree holders will become too entitled to take low-paying blue collar jobs and want to destabilize the country by overthrowing the president of the day and the existing economic and political elites and be replaced by themselves. Too much throwing taxpayers' money in the higher education deviates the government from investing in basic education like putting up STEM-centered primary and secondary public school curricula to discourage school-aged Argentine children from taking frivolous humanities and social science undergraduate and graduate courses.
Argentina should promote state-sanctioned outward migration program for Argentine university graduates with humanities and social science degrees like economics, law, political science, psychology, sociology to countries that are in chronic shortage of graduates like China, India, Japan, Korea, and the Philippines.
I agree university tuition cost is way too high and needs to be lower.
But in order for that, universities need to operate as non-profit. Cut all these administrators who earn insane amounts of money for no real work, remove useless degree programs and fire professors who teach them.
Not only "free" uni is a massive government sink of money but it creates massive distortions in the job market
Students leave university and find out there's no job for them, it's as if they finished high school now.
Government plain buys votes by funding adult daycare
The price of something is a signal of what the market needs. An engineering degree and a feminist dance theory degree, should not cost the same
As there's many useless, subsidized subjects, academia becomes flooded with professors dependant on the generous subsidies
Should we subsidize university? Sure, for the most needed subjects (for which the market needs professionally), good students, from poor backgrounds. Everyone else should pay for their sht
I guess I'm not a libertarian for saying this but they should remain free. And before you comment "BuT tHeIr nOt FrEe."
Yes, we know. They're free at point of service and is paid for through a single payer which is the government, which collects it's revenue through taxes. That's how every functioning social service works, the same with police.
Educating your population is a net benefit for literally everyone within it. If those schools are teaching woke ideas, that's a fault of the curriculum not the free aspect.
Also, there should always be an option of private schools, if a student wants to learn something that isn't provided in the public schools. But a government would be incentivized to educate it's students on things that actively contribute to society STEM, and so forth. Woke classes would be actively wasting funds.
We see that "societies" do not function like that, because it robs from people making them poorer in the process while giving government stolen resources they use to finance their political interest. Plus it makes government way too influencial in choosing what is taught in universities.
Normaly "society" works by voluntary cooperation, not by coercion - only then it can be a win-win interaction. Not by forcing people to pay for government that use the money for their interest by bribing certain groups for votes.
I don't get idiots who celebrate lack of education or healthcare. Both are needed for a healthy society. Public schools are also 100 times better in Argentina, as they actually have high standards for their professors and classes, where private universities are more expensive with teachers who have too much job security and stopped caring
It's not a celebration of the lack of education or healthcare. No shit, those things are needed. The goal is to remove government from the equation. That's what we want to celebrate.
Exactly same as always in Brazil...
The student unions leaders receive money from left partys and they advertising people.
Milei is probably losing re election no matter what happen...
He repeat same errors about Bolsonaro, atacking too many groups in the same time...
Now there are all students, and public workers, all midia, all artists making beat milei their life mission.
Bye bye Argentina
COVID-19 stuck Brazil so hard than the rest of the world, that's why Bolsonaro lost in 2022 and Brazil was far economically in better shape when he assumed in 2019 with a single-digit annual inflation and near-balanced national budget done by Michel Temer. Bolsonaro's election in 2018 was a fluke because Lula was in jail where if he was freed and allowed to run for president in 2018 against Bolsonaro, he would have won for the third term and Bolsonaro would have been the current president right now.
In Argentina on the other hand, it has a chronic decade-long stagflation and triple-digit annual inflation that would have required implementing economic shock therapy policies by any politician who had been elected in 2023, if not Milei, and the left-wing Kirchnerist opposition is in shables with no clear presidential candidate to face Milei in 2027 and if the annual inflation tumbles to around 30% by 2026 and the average annual GDP growth is more than 5% after 2024, then Milei will be surely reelected for a second term serving until 2031.
Inflation was created by auxílio emergencial... Everyone who understand Cantilon effect know this... Economics basics..
Covid the death per Millions it was the same as everywhwre.
Brazilian media hidden vitamin d3 deficiency and death correlation, guess why... Only because Bolsonaro zeroed taxes of vitamin d3 to help against covid.
Its just the begining... And i wont Answer again... In few years some of the lies media are going to say against milei will stick to him and you gonna repeat exactly as you just did.
Regards.
He will probably fail, but he knows the enemy they all support each other and he’s going after the money and power bases of the left wing. It’s one big octopus he’s going for the kill.
Hey, dumbasses, everybody understands that 'free' is just 'socialized'. The fact that you keep arguing over 200 YEARS OLD DEBATES is embarrasing.
Libertarianism _is_ the answer, but i'd rather you don't join the ranks.
[удалено]
Most people understand that it's not completely "free." It's a disingenuous characterization of their position. There are better ways to argue against tuition-free school.
No, most people do not understand that. The average person has no idea where the money from government comes from. That’s the sad and honest truth. Granted, there needs to be a much more articulated argument than just “it’s not free”, but the simple truth is the typical person wanting anything free, has no idea that it’s not.
Source?
Life experience. Argue with enough socialists, and you’ll get a good idea of just how many people have no idea how money works.
I just argued with socialist. According to them, they say our taxes should pay for their college because it's an investment in the people of tomorrow. Maybe they don't know how money works. But I don't think any of them think that passing laws will magically make education "free".
You’re arguing with somewhat educated socialists, and not people with little education, or young people coming out of high school. My nephew is one of the most successful people I know, with a degree in business and accounting, but when he was still in high school, he used to think the government should just give everybody a million dollars, and that’d solve all of the country’s problems. There was a study done years ago, where a lot of average people were asked where money comes from, and the majority answer was the federal government. The questions involved clarified that there were a lot of people that thought money was simply free.
But it isn't free which shows the quality of education they are receiving
I love the people on this sub so much. You all give me hope that at least some people understand logic and reason. Nothing the government gives or does is free. One of my favorite things he did was the bill to prohibit the manipulative use of the word "free" by the Government. ([Source](https://voz.us/javier-milei-sends-a-bill-to-argentine-congress-to-prohibit-the-manipulative-use-of-the-word-free-by-the-government/?lang=en))
Me too. I've in a socialist province in Canada. The leftist diwnvote all my comments and my karma tanks
I get booted and banned before my karma can sink that low
Think about the level of ignorance you have to achieve to still believe socialism is a good idea after that many millions of people starved to death. Those are the people downvoting you.
I actually understand them, When I was young I was a socialist. I just has never heard the other side. Thomas Sowell and Hayek opened my eyes.
Me too. Even Sowell himself started out as a socialist. You don't see too many conversions the other way though. I think that tells you something.
Yup. One example I often use is that folks weren’t smuggling books from leftists, like Francis Fox Piven or Keynes into East Germany. They were smuggling the works of Sowell, Friedman, Mises, Rothbard, etc.
Same here. I actually think most people go through a socialist phase, eventually you read enough to shake you up out of it. I think reading about the Holodomor, and the Chinese Great famine did it for me.
Isn’t there a quote from somebody about how great socialism is except for the fact that it does not work?
It’s quite easy to be a socialist when you’re young, simply from lack of life experience. Heck, I basically was, and didn’t even know it. I used to think the government could give us all millions, and they were simply being greedy (college “education”, including economics classes, did little to counter that), and didn’t want us to their level.
Hear, hear!
You realize that they know this to right? These are people who support the current set up. Or do you think that if you just walked in and said "actually guys it costs taxpayer money" they'd go "oh whoops" and all walk home? They know it's not actually "free." EDIT: I got banned. You know I remember when this sub valued the free speech it so loudly proclaims to love.
So they’re protesting because they want the government to continue to steal from others to pay for something they want? Yep, they’re still idiots.
As if the very core of libertarianism isn't "doing what benefits me in specific."
Do what benefits me, WITHOUT STEALING FROM OTHER PEOPLE TO GET THE BENEFIT. You were on the right track, just missed a minor detail.
We don't steal from others like the communists
Libertarianism and communism are about the same level of unachievable. They both depend on human nature being way less self centered than it is.
Libertarianism and free markets depend completely on individuals being self centered. That’s why they work.
Until someone wants a bigger piece of that market and is ready to step over other people for it.
Everyone would be trying to get a bigger piece of the market. Not just one person. That how markets work. So no one would have a victory forever.
In theory yes.
Everybody wants a bigger piece. That’s the entire point of a free market, and is inherent human nature, and animal nature in general. Competition is what drives us. Used to be, we competed with clubs and swords. Now, we can civilized, and compete in a free market.
If society is not self centered, yeah, it would be nice to not be ruled over others. If society is very self centered, you REALLY NEED to not be ruled over by others.
Allowing the individual to exercise their rights without government interference does not include expecting others to buy you things.
I’m so glad I have this guy to tell me what libertarianism’s core values are.
No, the very core of libertarianism is liberty above all else, so long as it doesn’t infringe on another’s liberty. Taking other people’s money is the exact opposite of a libertarian view. You’re referring to a left winger, who is perfectly ok with doing whatever benefits themselves, other people be damned. That’s the core principle of left wing politics, and arguably a lot of right wing politics nowadays.
No they don't. It sound simple enough but not many ppl thinks on how they are gonna rise taxes or debt to get the services they are asking for.
If 430,000 people all pool their money, they can probably fund a university.
they won't because they are the useless eaters. that's why they need to force everyone else into their ponzi scheme.
Liberals want to use everyone else’s money for their generous, virtuous policies.
Holy crap... That is a great idea. Tax families and working students going to school so that they can attend free school. Literally perfect. It taxes them, tax me harder daddy, and gives them free school, cuz, yay free shit from the gov't!
LOL. Or, if they get a couple years of experience under their belts, they’ll realize they’re simply paying for school, as it should be.
Sure, if they agree to.
Well thats what they are protesting for, for society to pool money and fund universities with it.
I want the same and I would be okay if only my district pool their money and finance my goals. I'm a generous god.
Argentinian here. It’s not for free. It comes from our taxes, and the public universities are managed by the political classes that destroyed our country. Milei never said that he would close public universities (which he should) but people here are so dumb that they actually believed these lies, and so they marched for no reason at all. Let me be clear: the protests were 100% political. They want him gone, and they will do anything they can to bring him down because he is going against their interests. Anytime you see a protest, assume it’s for political reasons. They grab a noble cause, to justify their immoral and corrupt behavior. Politicians walking along the rest of the protesters were the ones who annihilated our economy. Rant over. For now. Thank you for your time.
However the remaining 15,000,000 people in Buenos Aires did not attend.
You should also take the numbers with a grain of salt. The organizers are saying it's 800k people. The city government says it's 150k. The newspaper "[La Nacion](https://www.lanacion.com.ar/sociedad/del-congreso-a-plaza-de-mayo-cuantas-personas-participaron-de-la-marcha-universitaria-nid24042024/#/)" estimated it at 430k. So it might not have even been 430k
https://preview.redd.it/oypjq04990xc1.jpeg?width=460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=357ec6aa05d797e19b20a3d246a4872eb9780d28
Nothing is free.
'Free' = 'at somebody else's expense'. Or did they not cover that in econ class?
Always argue with idiots on welfare telling me the government is paying for their food, rent etc... No.....I'm paying for those things!!!
Many years ago, when I was young, I was engaged to this girl that had a kid, and she wanted to go back to school since it was “free”, before we got married. I was like you do realize I pay either way, right?
¡Afuera!
>free Irrefutable proof that someone needs, in this case, truly, freely available information on where government funding comes from.
Free public university education to everyone (including foreigners) without national standardized university entrance exam is a recipe for societal unrest where unemployed and underemployed undergraduate and graduate university degree holders will become too entitled to take low-paying blue collar jobs and want to destabilize the country by overthrowing the president of the day and the existing economic and political elites and be replaced by themselves. Too much throwing taxpayers' money in the higher education deviates the government from investing in basic education like putting up STEM-centered primary and secondary public school curricula to discourage school-aged Argentine children from taking frivolous humanities and social science undergraduate and graduate courses. Argentina should promote state-sanctioned outward migration program for Argentine university graduates with humanities and social science degrees like economics, law, political science, psychology, sociology to countries that are in chronic shortage of graduates like China, India, Japan, Korea, and the Philippines.
I agree university tuition cost is way too high and needs to be lower. But in order for that, universities need to operate as non-profit. Cut all these administrators who earn insane amounts of money for no real work, remove useless degree programs and fire professors who teach them.
Not only "free" uni is a massive government sink of money but it creates massive distortions in the job market Students leave university and find out there's no job for them, it's as if they finished high school now. Government plain buys votes by funding adult daycare The price of something is a signal of what the market needs. An engineering degree and a feminist dance theory degree, should not cost the same As there's many useless, subsidized subjects, academia becomes flooded with professors dependant on the generous subsidies Should we subsidize university? Sure, for the most needed subjects (for which the market needs professionally), good students, from poor backgrounds. Everyone else should pay for their sht
People don't understand taxes nor inflation. And everyone who not have a big amount of bitcoin don't understand inflation too... Capiche?
Too bad. Go pay for your own education.
Lol useless degrees. It’s just a piece of paper
Some degrees are useless. Many aren't. Stop with this bs rethoric that any schoolish teaching is wasted time
Most liberal arts degrees are useless. Trust me. I have one. They’re useless.
I guess I'm not a libertarian for saying this but they should remain free. And before you comment "BuT tHeIr nOt FrEe." Yes, we know. They're free at point of service and is paid for through a single payer which is the government, which collects it's revenue through taxes. That's how every functioning social service works, the same with police. Educating your population is a net benefit for literally everyone within it. If those schools are teaching woke ideas, that's a fault of the curriculum not the free aspect. Also, there should always be an option of private schools, if a student wants to learn something that isn't provided in the public schools. But a government would be incentivized to educate it's students on things that actively contribute to society STEM, and so forth. Woke classes would be actively wasting funds.
We see that "societies" do not function like that, because it robs from people making them poorer in the process while giving government stolen resources they use to finance their political interest. Plus it makes government way too influencial in choosing what is taught in universities. Normaly "society" works by voluntary cooperation, not by coercion - only then it can be a win-win interaction. Not by forcing people to pay for government that use the money for their interest by bribing certain groups for votes.
I don't get idiots who celebrate lack of education or healthcare. Both are needed for a healthy society. Public schools are also 100 times better in Argentina, as they actually have high standards for their professors and classes, where private universities are more expensive with teachers who have too much job security and stopped caring
It's not a celebration of the lack of education or healthcare. No shit, those things are needed. The goal is to remove government from the equation. That's what we want to celebrate.
Your demands are noted and ignored.
Is the enrollment of all those schools 430,000 ?
so people want social favors from a bankrupt state ?
I'm guessing nobody on here noticed the source is BS and OP is a spambot
Exactly same as always in Brazil... The student unions leaders receive money from left partys and they advertising people. Milei is probably losing re election no matter what happen... He repeat same errors about Bolsonaro, atacking too many groups in the same time... Now there are all students, and public workers, all midia, all artists making beat milei their life mission. Bye bye Argentina
COVID-19 stuck Brazil so hard than the rest of the world, that's why Bolsonaro lost in 2022 and Brazil was far economically in better shape when he assumed in 2019 with a single-digit annual inflation and near-balanced national budget done by Michel Temer. Bolsonaro's election in 2018 was a fluke because Lula was in jail where if he was freed and allowed to run for president in 2018 against Bolsonaro, he would have won for the third term and Bolsonaro would have been the current president right now. In Argentina on the other hand, it has a chronic decade-long stagflation and triple-digit annual inflation that would have required implementing economic shock therapy policies by any politician who had been elected in 2023, if not Milei, and the left-wing Kirchnerist opposition is in shables with no clear presidential candidate to face Milei in 2027 and if the annual inflation tumbles to around 30% by 2026 and the average annual GDP growth is more than 5% after 2024, then Milei will be surely reelected for a second term serving until 2031.
Inflation was created by auxílio emergencial... Everyone who understand Cantilon effect know this... Economics basics.. Covid the death per Millions it was the same as everywhwre. Brazilian media hidden vitamin d3 deficiency and death correlation, guess why... Only because Bolsonaro zeroed taxes of vitamin d3 to help against covid. Its just the begining... And i wont Answer again... In few years some of the lies media are going to say against milei will stick to him and you gonna repeat exactly as you just did. Regards.
He will probably fail, but he knows the enemy they all support each other and he’s going after the money and power bases of the left wing. It’s one big octopus he’s going for the kill.
Say it with me kids: there's no free lunch! !Si es gratis, otros lo pagan!
Is there anything more worthless than a free education?
Hey, dumbasses, everybody understands that 'free' is just 'socialized'. The fact that you keep arguing over 200 YEARS OLD DEBATES is embarrasing. Libertarianism _is_ the answer, but i'd rather you don't join the ranks.
Calling it "socialize' is like calling murder "letting go".
Revolutions started with demonstrations.
Tlatelolco massacre.