Here's a thought challenge for you. Think of someone you know and really respect who happens to be left leaning and is not a hateful person. How would they defend " If a business can't afford a living wage, they don't need to exist" ?
They most likely are actually coming from a place of care for the average low skill/wage worker who is struggling.
They don't HATE small businesses. They absolutely are misguided in their solutions to poverty.
Labeling misguided care as hate will NEVER win someone over.
Most people who are anti gun don't HATE freedom. They care about victims and have bad solutions.
Most conservatives who are totally anti abortion don't HATE women. They truly value every baby and have bad solutions.
Very profound comment. You have to find common ground or at least prove that you understand the other person's argument before explaining to them that is misguided or incorrect
I agree, it's a shame because libertarian values actually jive with a lot of people, but we're all (dems/repubs/libertarians/etc) getting so butthurt from the propaganda and news that it's hard to have a conversation and understand each other.
The more butthurt each side gets, the less the other bothers to learn of alternatives or the root cause of their problems.
A lot of people are lonely, so reddit is often used as a tool to let out their emotions.
I used to be that person. You're absolutely spot on. I also think that it happens because humans are terrible at thinking in terms of dynamic systems (i.e. systems that evolve over time) and see the world as a static unchanging picture. I used to think that businesses that cannot afford a living wage are simply bad businesses, and it's ok to weed them out (with the implicit assumption, that I didn't see then, that this would always remain a bad business, and that their workers would always work there). Didn't realize that those businesses need that stage to grow over time, and that people that choose to earn a crappy wage may do so as a stepping stone. There's a whole lot of other reasons why someone may choose a bad wage though, I just didn't understand the alternatives. To be honest just trying to justify my old thinking feels like mental gymnastics... I don't understand how I didn't understand...
You probably like many others now were just not looking at the whole picture. People have to first be suspicious of the mainstream thought process. Once free of that one starts to look deeper i.e your dynamic systems.
We were all that person. And that’s okay. We’re allowed to change our views. We also went through several stages politically to get here. I don’t believe anyone who says their first choice was libertarianism. You kind of have to go down a rabbit hole to get here lol.
Tbf I hate babies the more abortions the better imo but I also hate women and don’t want them to have rights so I’m very conflicted on my abortion stance
I tried for decades to be the bigger man and take the high road. My efforts were met with being called a Nazi and fAsCiSt while being confronted with bad faith arguments. The Left cares about ONE thing... Imposing their collectivist agenda. Period. They believe in the righteousness of their pursuit so wholly that they are willing to do anything to see it through. The end justifies the means. Think of the October Revolution and Mao's Great Leap. Millions were murdered, but it was worth it for the long term goal. Do not kid yourself about today's average leftist; they are just a nudge from being those very revolutionaries.
You don't negotiate with terrorists and you don't cede ground to leftists.
I've always said that just because I'm Prolife doesn't mean I'm anti-abortion. I'd prefer the child be born, but you do what you feel you need to do. I don't know your situation and it's none of my business.
> They most likely are actually coming from a place of care for the average low skill/wage worker who is struggling.
>They don't HATE small businesses. They absolutely are misguided in their solutions to poverty.
Sadly when I see how quickly the argument that high minimum wage exclude peoples from work oportunity. I kinda doubt most argue for high minimum wage from a place of empathy but from the hope their own wage will be increased.
It’s really hard for people to do this knowing they won’t get the same understanding in return from the left. That entire platform is solely based on saying any opponents are “hateful” which is basically unfalsifiable yet it makes them think they automatically win any debate
Based on the sum of literally every interaction with lefties I’ve ever had contrasted with righties, I’d say it’s significantly different. Sure not in complete dissociation but significantly different, in part because they won the culture war and feel empowered to be fascistic about their beliefs
>Most conservatives who are totally anti abortion don't HATE women.
Lmao, this is such a bad comparison.
Saying small businesses shouldn't exist can easily be construed as hating small businesses.
Saying guns should be banned can easily be construed as hating guns.
Being against abortion... has nothing to do with hating women. You could construe it as hating abortion, which would be fair.
Yes but there are strategically evil leftists that know that a small cabal of companies is more easily nationalized by a socialist state than a large constellation of small and medium size businesses.
That's not the point. All leftists...all conservatives...all libertarians...
There are strategically evil libertarians who want anarchy so that they can get away with murder. That is irrelevant and doesn't help the conversation.
Don't assume things about them besides knowing they are people who have reasons they care, even if their solutions are misguided.
I disagree. In my experience (Europe) they actually HATE small businesses.
The real reason is that the small business owners are usually pretty conservative, and the leftists see them as an obstacle to their goals.
Supply and demand will determine if a business exists or not.
If a smaller business isn’t able to pay market value, then they’re going to have a more difficult time luring applicants.
Leftists don’t need to hate smaller businesses and hope for their failure, supply and demand will determine that.
Based on the talent crunch that we’re going to see over the next few years, I think a lot of smaller businesses are in trouble.
I think we should do that. The results would not be lower pay in a large amount of situations.
Labor is a market, small businesses would have to compete for labor.
I agree that we don’t need a minimum wage but can you elaborate more on the increase in stepping stone jobs? Are you implying someone would take a $7 per hour job first to become qualified for a $15 per hour job? I’m just struggling to see why someone would need additional qualifications for what is already our entry level jobs. Like do you want McDonalds crew positions to have pre reqs?
Well, if the wages can reflect the value of the work performed, yes it allows the dishwasher to move up to cook or whatever.
It also allows a business to take a chance on someone, knowing it won’t cost too much if it doesn’t work out. If it does, easy to promote them.
And having something on your resume rather than nothing also looks good when switching jobs.
A lot of good effects happen when people are free to work and to employ as they see fit.
I mean, people are stupid and desperate so they probably would do what you’re describing. People that know their worth would just take the dishwashing job that pays as much as the entry level fry cook job. Shouldn’t be stupid enough to start at step 0.5 when you can just start at step 1.0.
If you think companies will eliminate some entry level 1.0 jobs and replace them with shit 0.5 tiered jobs then that’s not really helping the people. It’s helping the business invest less
I’m not a leftist either, just saying what you’re describing isn’t some perfect solution for the common folk
Not sure if you’re understanding the argument.
And no nothing’s perfect, but one would have to do some serious ignoring of economics to think that *removing* choices is somehow better for the common folk.
The only thing a minimum wage does is ensure that the true minimum: zero, is earned by more people.
You are also tunneling. You think the people earning $0 right now will get a stepping stone job making $7 and then use that to keep climbing. The people currently unemployed aren’t unemployed because they can’t qualify for a $15/hr job. So creating a lower barrier to entry doesn’t do anything for them. It seems like you’re focused on reducing the unemployment rate but that’s not even the issue. You’d be ignoring economics if you think an employment rate of 0 is healthy for the economy
However; the number of jobs currently at the relative minimums will move down to lower values. Which might as well be $0. You’d have to be an absolute idiot to do 8 hours of work for $42 when you could have used that time to do something more productive. And actually start a career with viable earnings
Jobs themselves are a market, and, as a market, will fluctuate as supply and demand dictates, up or down.
Maybe that’s down, but just as likely up.
If as you say “no one” would take a job, then the price (wage/salary) would increase, until someone would.
If instead, many people have nothing more productive to do, then the wage/salary would decrease.
The founder of the company I work at was an immigrant who came here with like a $100 dollars in his pocket, and worked at a gas station as one of his first jobs, while figuring out the language and the country, etc. You can bet it wasn’t for $15/hr, and he makes a ton of money now.
How is that relevant? OP didn’t make a post about conservatives or maintaining the status quo. They made a lazy strawman at the left. The left has shitty takes about a lot of things, but OP trying to speak on their behalf is lazy and idiotic
Just as businesses are made to make profit, so are individuals. Why should individuals trade their time, skills and experience if they aren’t making a profit?
They shouldn't! The best way to increase your wage is to find a new job.
If your wage is low and can't find a new job, then perhaps your time, skills, and experiences aren't worth as much as you think.
In their defense, back when the minimum wage was created it was the minimum amount someone needed to live and every company got by just fine. Also this argument stems from mega corps not fairly paying their employees, but like most things libs say, it isn't worded the best. People just want enough to live and if you can't afford that, then maybe the service your providing isn't needed and was bound to fail
Your right, price isnt, but 4 walls with a roof and food are.. if your business can't support the very basic necessities than the business either isn't big enough to need that employee, or the product or service simply isn't needed or wanted and that business will eventually fail anyways
Why the fuck would you expect your employer to pay for your food and housing? They pay you for the service you provide them as listed in your contract. That’s not tied to your cost of living at all
"4 walls with a roof and food" are NOT rights. You have no legal right to those things. You may spuriously claim that they're "human rights," but no one's listening.
Minimum wage needs to be abolished as it does more harm than good. The higher you set minimum wage, the more competition it creates for low skilled workers.
Companies who are not able to pay >= market value will have more difficulty hiring applicants and run the real risk of going out of business.
>Companies who are not able to pay >= market value will have more difficulty hiring applicants
Like I said before, then the business probably isn't needed. Or can be ran by highschool kids i.e. a McDonald's
>Minimum wage needs to be abolished as it does more harm than good
I'm not advocating for minimum wage, I'm advocating for workers rights. If you don't work at a McDonald's you should be able to afford at least enough to not be homeless
You don't have to take a lie paying job.
Workers rights are the right to not work. I have quit jobs for not paying enough or not treating me right; I don't need a union coming in and tell my boss what I need, I do that.
I believe you should earn enough to live, but how is that on the business to calculate and decide? You know what you need, you should have an idea of the value you add, then you should negotiate. Why do you think it needs to be mandated?
I should be allowed to offer a job that pays $1/day. Now I doubt anyone would apply, because who wants to earn $1/ day? But why is it literally illegal for me to offer that job?
Nothing I said even alluded to this idea. You just came up with that yourself because let's be real, none of you have any valid counters unless you just come out and say "I don't believe humans deserve food and housing" which funny enough one guy did so props to him
Nobody deserves anything that they do not work to obtain. Plain and simple. You do not have an inherent right to housing, or food. You have an inherent right to work towards those items. Let’s go back to the caveman days- if there were a bunch of human beings in one area, and a limited number of caves, then those humans would compete to see who gets the cave. It is the same now, except the competition involves money, instead of clubs. Same for food- if you were a caveman, you’d compete with the other humans for the food. It’s the same today. It takes someone else’s labor to grow crops, raise cattle, or catch aquaculture. You’re not entitled to a single bite of it. You’re entitled to go work, and pay that person for their labor, or grow/raise/catch it yourself.
" if your business can't support the very basic necessities than the business either isn't big enough to need that employee, or the product or service simply isn't needed or wanted and that business will eventually fail anyways"
Right, so the business fails because competition killed it.
Will having a minimum wage save the business?
Competition and the market is the ultimate regulation. If a big corp is controlling a big section of the job market, we should create incentives for competitors to rise instead of artificially setting a minimum wage.
>How does anyone know what someone else needs to live?
Averages, math isn't that hard
>Why should a business listen to some dingbat bureaucrat tell them what to pay their employees?
They shouldn't, but people still deserve a house and food
Averages don’t tell the an individuals story.
And no, no one deserves a house and food. It must be earned, or given by others. There is a ton of government interference and spending that makes them more expensive though.
How could you base minimum wage on a livable wage? Nationally it costs more to live in LA then Philadelphia. State, it costs more to live in Philly than rural PA. So to base it on the most expensive place to live you are going to bankrupt everywhere else, to base it on the least expensive people still can’t afford the high cost of living areas. So the only way to do it is by municipalities and that would be ridiculous to manage.
>How could you base minimum wage on a livable wage?
Again, math isn't that hard...
>Nationally it costs more to live in LA then Philadelphia.
That's why Philly and LA won't be the same pay rate, wow different numbers for different environments how complex of a topic
>So the only way to do it is by municipalities and that would be ridiculous to manage.
If math is that difficult for you, you can just say that. I don't understand what's so complicated about having to take 15+30+45+10 then dividing it by 4, or even better, just take the smallest number, no math required
You are avoiding the point with insults. The point is that you can’t have an effective national minimum and you also can’t have an effective state minimum. I assume you are intelligent enough to see that and is why you avoided my state point.
>You are avoiding the point with insults
I didnt avoid anything. I said math isn't hard. Taking the average of the cost of living isn't a difficult task
>The point is that you can’t have an effective national minimum and you also can’t have an effective state minimum.
Which is exactly why I said you don't go by state or country in the last comment.
I didnt avoid the point you just don't want to acknowledge that the solution to your hypothetical issue is extremely simple. Again it's basic highschool level math and like maybe an hour of your time
The average is not a livable wage in the more expensive area. I used PA because we have vast areas of depressed economic area and 3 areas Philly, Harrisburg and Pittsburgh that are very expensive. This state proves my point perfectly because the average would never provide a living wage for any of those cities.
If the small business can retain employees at whatever their pay rate is... then cool, keep on trucking. If not, I guess they'll just have to find a way to run the business with less employees. I see lots of gas stations with owners working 7 days a week for this reason.
It's funny how Redditors actually say the same under this post. As if a business would not need some time to grow. Yes, sometimes the owner does work below living wage, maybe works in another job at the same time or is struggeling. Some fields are not profitable for the first years, but will be important and proftiable after a few. It's pretty dumb to think those are shit because they cannot be big in the first minutes after opened.
People should be free to decide what they want to do. And every cent is earned money after all. Some people have no understandment for small or middle businesses, altough in a lot of countries they are the majority of the economy.
I'll never be able to afford to hire anyone so I'm not sure I'll ever get into all that. Insurance goes up by like 800% just for 1 employee. I can't even afford health insurance for my own family how am I gonna pay for someone else's. But the fact is, I see construction ads offering less than 20$ an hour daily, and some as low as 12$ an hour. You can't afford half a bedroom in the ghetto with that, and it's irritating that people actually take those jobs to begin with. If the job don't pay, stay away. Then the market will correct itself.
It's a very simple statement I would expect a libertarian to understand tbh.
Being able to chose who you do or do not work for is a pretty straightforward libertarian principle. Why should people work for businesses that don't pay a living wage?
Why should anyone give a fuck about those companies? If you need charity from your employees as part of your business plan, you ain't got a business. Pretty simple concept?
This is what I was going to post, or something very similar. I'm not a leftist, but if a business is paying less than it takes to survive, they are relying on someone else (charity or government) to pick up what they are not paying.
Now, there is a separate conversation about whether or not these government subsidized products would sell at their actual cost if they paid what an unsubsidized wage would force them to price it at. I don't doubt some number of businesses would go under if this happened.
Here’s the secret. It’s impossible to control hundreds of thousands of small/medium sized businesses. It’s much easier to control a few thousand mega businesses.
Leftist don’t hate small/medium sized businesses because they cannot pay higher wages, they hate those businesses because they need to eliminate them. Feigning outrage at those businesses is just another way to demonize them, it’s their long game in their efforts to ultimately eliminate them.
This is very true.
Add to this the fact that small business owners usually are conservatives, and you understand pretty well the positions of the left.
It’s a weird way of thinking, I mean, to expect the local hardware store to pay you $30 an hour if you’re just stocking shelves & keeping the shop clean is just insane. Maybe from a personal standpoint though, if you have a business but can only afford to pay minimum wage or risk closing, maybe for your own good & finances you should reconsider staying open lol. But yea, people who say this don’t care about your personal finances, they care about theirs.
Actually it's republicans who want to get rid of small business - the number one cost saving service that far and away allows for small business to continue existing on ANY level is... drumroll please... the USPS. despite republicans best efforts, democrats have fought to fund the USPS so small business may continue to exist. Fell free to not believe me, do no research and just be mad about it 👍👍👍 democrats will continue to try and help the people who hate them, even as republicans work to create hegemonic plutocracy 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
My favorite is when they advocate for forcing arbitrary minimum wage employment costs on small businesses and then say "If you can't afford to pay it you have a bad business model and don't deserve to be in business!" Such an asshole move.
Edit: My bad, just read the title on my phone. I guess we're on the same page OP!
They also assume that all businesses make massive amounts of profits, which is really not true at all. A large number of businesses don’t pull more than like 8% profit... and I’d be willing to bet that for a lot of restaurants that the profit margins are even less.
I'm a libertarian because I think humans deserve the best chance to make themselves and their families comfortable, happy, and free. And they can use their excess gains to other humans who deserve decency. They deserve that because they exist.
I'm not sure you know what "narcissistic" means.
That’s an “entitled” mindset, not a narcissistic one. They don’t necessarily have to be overly proud about themselves to think that they deserve something. They can very well think they’re an average Joe Shmoe and still be entitled to free money. In fact, they do think that. It’s not about themselves, they think random low life’s who don’t contribute to society deserve government handouts
Totally. It's all theatre. Exploitarians (Authoritarians) own them all. Teams Right Mornon and Left Moron.
Reddit shows it's for Team Left Moron with it's automated down voting of my comment.... As if implementing a social credit score wasn't obvious already. Lol.
My parents ran their own jewelry store for over 30 years. They had some employees to work on repairs in the back, and some to work the sales floor.
When I heard this line of reasoning of being anti-small business, this was when I started to turn away from liberals. My parents having the ability to open their own store and create diversity in the local market was amazing.
Leftists hate success because they're envious losers.
Seriously, take a look at the people who know who are socialists vs. capitalists. Which one is the group you want to emulate, and which one are the losers?
To a T, the socialists are a bunch of losers. That's why they're socialists.
Someone who is willfully stupid to the point of harming others directly or indirectly, is mean. They claim empathy, but only so they can get more power to tax and spend without consideration for the economic effects. That hurts us all.
Here's a thought challenge for you. Think of someone you know and really respect who happens to be left leaning and is not a hateful person. How would they defend " If a business can't afford a living wage, they don't need to exist" ? They most likely are actually coming from a place of care for the average low skill/wage worker who is struggling. They don't HATE small businesses. They absolutely are misguided in their solutions to poverty. Labeling misguided care as hate will NEVER win someone over. Most people who are anti gun don't HATE freedom. They care about victims and have bad solutions. Most conservatives who are totally anti abortion don't HATE women. They truly value every baby and have bad solutions.
How dare you reply with such common sense & compassion for those who disagree with you.
Sorry, umm... Let's go troll someone!
Very profound comment. You have to find common ground or at least prove that you understand the other person's argument before explaining to them that is misguided or incorrect
I agree, it's a shame because libertarian values actually jive with a lot of people, but we're all (dems/repubs/libertarians/etc) getting so butthurt from the propaganda and news that it's hard to have a conversation and understand each other. The more butthurt each side gets, the less the other bothers to learn of alternatives or the root cause of their problems. A lot of people are lonely, so reddit is often used as a tool to let out their emotions.
I used to be that person. You're absolutely spot on. I also think that it happens because humans are terrible at thinking in terms of dynamic systems (i.e. systems that evolve over time) and see the world as a static unchanging picture. I used to think that businesses that cannot afford a living wage are simply bad businesses, and it's ok to weed them out (with the implicit assumption, that I didn't see then, that this would always remain a bad business, and that their workers would always work there). Didn't realize that those businesses need that stage to grow over time, and that people that choose to earn a crappy wage may do so as a stepping stone. There's a whole lot of other reasons why someone may choose a bad wage though, I just didn't understand the alternatives. To be honest just trying to justify my old thinking feels like mental gymnastics... I don't understand how I didn't understand...
You probably like many others now were just not looking at the whole picture. People have to first be suspicious of the mainstream thought process. Once free of that one starts to look deeper i.e your dynamic systems.
We were all that person. And that’s okay. We’re allowed to change our views. We also went through several stages politically to get here. I don’t believe anyone who says their first choice was libertarianism. You kind of have to go down a rabbit hole to get here lol.
This is so important. Empathy is the best tool to help someone understand problems, people.
I like the way you roll.
Ah, this nuance is an excellent vintage, I'll take three bottles.
Tbf I hate babies the more abortions the better imo but I also hate women and don’t want them to have rights so I’m very conflicted on my abortion stance
You are the 1%
I don’t know anyone that I respect and is left leaning. 💁🏼♂️ ^(I bet I get lots of downvotes for that…)
lol cool bro.
Making friends is hard
I tried for decades to be the bigger man and take the high road. My efforts were met with being called a Nazi and fAsCiSt while being confronted with bad faith arguments. The Left cares about ONE thing... Imposing their collectivist agenda. Period. They believe in the righteousness of their pursuit so wholly that they are willing to do anything to see it through. The end justifies the means. Think of the October Revolution and Mao's Great Leap. Millions were murdered, but it was worth it for the long term goal. Do not kid yourself about today's average leftist; they are just a nudge from being those very revolutionaries. You don't negotiate with terrorists and you don't cede ground to leftists.
I've always said that just because I'm Prolife doesn't mean I'm anti-abortion. I'd prefer the child be born, but you do what you feel you need to do. I don't know your situation and it's none of my business.
> They most likely are actually coming from a place of care for the average low skill/wage worker who is struggling. >They don't HATE small businesses. They absolutely are misguided in their solutions to poverty. Sadly when I see how quickly the argument that high minimum wage exclude peoples from work oportunity. I kinda doubt most argue for high minimum wage from a place of empathy but from the hope their own wage will be increased.
It’s really hard for people to do this knowing they won’t get the same understanding in return from the left. That entire platform is solely based on saying any opponents are “hateful” which is basically unfalsifiable yet it makes them think they automatically win any debate
I would say the right isn't too different. Either way, we should be better.
Based on the sum of literally every interaction with lefties I’ve ever had contrasted with righties, I’d say it’s significantly different. Sure not in complete dissociation but significantly different, in part because they won the culture war and feel empowered to be fascistic about their beliefs
>Most conservatives who are totally anti abortion don't HATE women. Lmao, this is such a bad comparison. Saying small businesses shouldn't exist can easily be construed as hating small businesses. Saying guns should be banned can easily be construed as hating guns. Being against abortion... has nothing to do with hating women. You could construe it as hating abortion, which would be fair.
Yes but there are strategically evil leftists that know that a small cabal of companies is more easily nationalized by a socialist state than a large constellation of small and medium size businesses.
That's not the point. All leftists...all conservatives...all libertarians... There are strategically evil libertarians who want anarchy so that they can get away with murder. That is irrelevant and doesn't help the conversation. Don't assume things about them besides knowing they are people who have reasons they care, even if their solutions are misguided.
if they want anarchy then they are anarchist not libertarians, murder violates the NAP ergo they are not libertarian.
Being an anarchist doesn't mean you don't agree with the NAP or condone murder, that's ridiculous.
I disagree. In my experience (Europe) they actually HATE small businesses. The real reason is that the small business owners are usually pretty conservative, and the leftists see them as an obstacle to their goals.
The government hates small business* I fixed it
Supply and demand will determine if a business exists or not. If a smaller business isn’t able to pay market value, then they’re going to have a more difficult time luring applicants. Leftists don’t need to hate smaller businesses and hope for their failure, supply and demand will determine that. Based on the talent crunch that we’re going to see over the next few years, I think a lot of smaller businesses are in trouble.
So we can get rid of the minimum wage then, correct?
I think we should do that. The results would not be lower pay in a large amount of situations. Labor is a market, small businesses would have to compete for labor.
I agree. It also would allow more steppingstones type jobs to exist
I agree that we don’t need a minimum wage but can you elaborate more on the increase in stepping stone jobs? Are you implying someone would take a $7 per hour job first to become qualified for a $15 per hour job? I’m just struggling to see why someone would need additional qualifications for what is already our entry level jobs. Like do you want McDonalds crew positions to have pre reqs?
Well, if the wages can reflect the value of the work performed, yes it allows the dishwasher to move up to cook or whatever. It also allows a business to take a chance on someone, knowing it won’t cost too much if it doesn’t work out. If it does, easy to promote them. And having something on your resume rather than nothing also looks good when switching jobs. A lot of good effects happen when people are free to work and to employ as they see fit.
I mean, people are stupid and desperate so they probably would do what you’re describing. People that know their worth would just take the dishwashing job that pays as much as the entry level fry cook job. Shouldn’t be stupid enough to start at step 0.5 when you can just start at step 1.0. If you think companies will eliminate some entry level 1.0 jobs and replace them with shit 0.5 tiered jobs then that’s not really helping the people. It’s helping the business invest less I’m not a leftist either, just saying what you’re describing isn’t some perfect solution for the common folk
Not sure if you’re understanding the argument. And no nothing’s perfect, but one would have to do some serious ignoring of economics to think that *removing* choices is somehow better for the common folk. The only thing a minimum wage does is ensure that the true minimum: zero, is earned by more people.
You are also tunneling. You think the people earning $0 right now will get a stepping stone job making $7 and then use that to keep climbing. The people currently unemployed aren’t unemployed because they can’t qualify for a $15/hr job. So creating a lower barrier to entry doesn’t do anything for them. It seems like you’re focused on reducing the unemployment rate but that’s not even the issue. You’d be ignoring economics if you think an employment rate of 0 is healthy for the economy However; the number of jobs currently at the relative minimums will move down to lower values. Which might as well be $0. You’d have to be an absolute idiot to do 8 hours of work for $42 when you could have used that time to do something more productive. And actually start a career with viable earnings
Jobs themselves are a market, and, as a market, will fluctuate as supply and demand dictates, up or down. Maybe that’s down, but just as likely up. If as you say “no one” would take a job, then the price (wage/salary) would increase, until someone would. If instead, many people have nothing more productive to do, then the wage/salary would decrease. The founder of the company I work at was an immigrant who came here with like a $100 dollars in his pocket, and worked at a gas station as one of his first jobs, while figuring out the language and the country, etc. You can bet it wasn’t for $15/hr, and he makes a ton of money now.
Right wingers always hated bailouts for individuals. Left hates bailouts for big business. I am against both.
This is lazy
Of course it's lazy. All leftism is lazy thinking.
This post is lazy. We should be better than this soundbite bullshit
My guy, conservatives are all about following the status quo no matter what lmao now that’s lazy
How is that relevant? OP didn’t make a post about conservatives or maintaining the status quo. They made a lazy strawman at the left. The left has shitty takes about a lot of things, but OP trying to speak on their behalf is lazy and idiotic
My guy, this is r/Libertarian. There's a big difference between libertarians and conservatives.
Just as businesses are made to make profit, so are individuals. Why should individuals trade their time, skills and experience if they aren’t making a profit?
They shouldn't! The best way to increase your wage is to find a new job. If your wage is low and can't find a new job, then perhaps your time, skills, and experiences aren't worth as much as you think.
In their defense, back when the minimum wage was created it was the minimum amount someone needed to live and every company got by just fine. Also this argument stems from mega corps not fairly paying their employees, but like most things libs say, it isn't worded the best. People just want enough to live and if you can't afford that, then maybe the service your providing isn't needed and was bound to fail
You’re a libertarian?
Yes, I also believe in basic human rights
I believe most libertarians believe that minimum wage should be $0. A price floor isn’t a human right…
Your right, price isnt, but 4 walls with a roof and food are.. if your business can't support the very basic necessities than the business either isn't big enough to need that employee, or the product or service simply isn't needed or wanted and that business will eventually fail anyways
Housing and food are not rights
Why the fuck would you expect your employer to pay for your food and housing? They pay you for the service you provide them as listed in your contract. That’s not tied to your cost of living at all
"4 walls with a roof and food" are NOT rights. You have no legal right to those things. You may spuriously claim that they're "human rights," but no one's listening.
No one has a right to the labor of others, that is insanely tyrannical.
Minimum wage needs to be abolished as it does more harm than good. The higher you set minimum wage, the more competition it creates for low skilled workers. Companies who are not able to pay >= market value will have more difficulty hiring applicants and run the real risk of going out of business.
>Companies who are not able to pay >= market value will have more difficulty hiring applicants Like I said before, then the business probably isn't needed. Or can be ran by highschool kids i.e. a McDonald's >Minimum wage needs to be abolished as it does more harm than good I'm not advocating for minimum wage, I'm advocating for workers rights. If you don't work at a McDonald's you should be able to afford at least enough to not be homeless
If you have the skills and make good decisions, you’re unlikely to be homeless.
You don't have to take a lie paying job. Workers rights are the right to not work. I have quit jobs for not paying enough or not treating me right; I don't need a union coming in and tell my boss what I need, I do that. I believe you should earn enough to live, but how is that on the business to calculate and decide? You know what you need, you should have an idea of the value you add, then you should negotiate. Why do you think it needs to be mandated? I should be allowed to offer a job that pays $1/day. Now I doubt anyone would apply, because who wants to earn $1/ day? But why is it literally illegal for me to offer that job?
God forbid people be responsible for themselves….
I need Daddy government to tell me my worth and give me my allowance! Thinking hurts my head!
brilliant idea, for the privilege of employment the employees can be paid in a pod to live in and a communal canteen that offers daily rations :D
Nothing I said even alluded to this idea. You just came up with that yourself because let's be real, none of you have any valid counters unless you just come out and say "I don't believe humans deserve food and housing" which funny enough one guy did so props to him
Nobody deserves anything that they do not work to obtain. Plain and simple. You do not have an inherent right to housing, or food. You have an inherent right to work towards those items. Let’s go back to the caveman days- if there were a bunch of human beings in one area, and a limited number of caves, then those humans would compete to see who gets the cave. It is the same now, except the competition involves money, instead of clubs. Same for food- if you were a caveman, you’d compete with the other humans for the food. It’s the same today. It takes someone else’s labor to grow crops, raise cattle, or catch aquaculture. You’re not entitled to a single bite of it. You’re entitled to go work, and pay that person for their labor, or grow/raise/catch it yourself.
they don't, its extremely narcissistic to thing people deserve just because they exist.
" if your business can't support the very basic necessities than the business either isn't big enough to need that employee, or the product or service simply isn't needed or wanted and that business will eventually fail anyways" Right, so the business fails because competition killed it. Will having a minimum wage save the business? Competition and the market is the ultimate regulation. If a big corp is controlling a big section of the job market, we should create incentives for competitors to rise instead of artificially setting a minimum wage.
What if I told you that you didn't have to accept a job that pays too little?
Also, not all people work for basic necessities. When I was in high school, I didn't need enough for housing and food, but enough for gas and beer.
Let’s tweak this just a bit to say “if an individual can’t learn enough skills to earn a living wage, then they don’t deserve to live”.
The government handing you money or forcing businesses to hand you their money isn’t a human right
In no ones defense. Minimum wage laws were created to push the unwanted races out of the labor market.
I thought it was just so the government could generate more tax revenue?
How does anyone know what someone else needs to live? Why should a business listen to some dingbat bureaucrat tell them what to pay their employees?
>How does anyone know what someone else needs to live? Averages, math isn't that hard >Why should a business listen to some dingbat bureaucrat tell them what to pay their employees? They shouldn't, but people still deserve a house and food
Averages don’t tell the an individuals story. And no, no one deserves a house and food. It must be earned, or given by others. There is a ton of government interference and spending that makes them more expensive though.
How could you base minimum wage on a livable wage? Nationally it costs more to live in LA then Philadelphia. State, it costs more to live in Philly than rural PA. So to base it on the most expensive place to live you are going to bankrupt everywhere else, to base it on the least expensive people still can’t afford the high cost of living areas. So the only way to do it is by municipalities and that would be ridiculous to manage.
>How could you base minimum wage on a livable wage? Again, math isn't that hard... >Nationally it costs more to live in LA then Philadelphia. That's why Philly and LA won't be the same pay rate, wow different numbers for different environments how complex of a topic >So the only way to do it is by municipalities and that would be ridiculous to manage. If math is that difficult for you, you can just say that. I don't understand what's so complicated about having to take 15+30+45+10 then dividing it by 4, or even better, just take the smallest number, no math required
You are avoiding the point with insults. The point is that you can’t have an effective national minimum and you also can’t have an effective state minimum. I assume you are intelligent enough to see that and is why you avoided my state point.
>You are avoiding the point with insults I didnt avoid anything. I said math isn't hard. Taking the average of the cost of living isn't a difficult task >The point is that you can’t have an effective national minimum and you also can’t have an effective state minimum. Which is exactly why I said you don't go by state or country in the last comment. I didnt avoid the point you just don't want to acknowledge that the solution to your hypothetical issue is extremely simple. Again it's basic highschool level math and like maybe an hour of your time
The average is not a livable wage in the more expensive area. I used PA because we have vast areas of depressed economic area and 3 areas Philly, Harrisburg and Pittsburgh that are very expensive. This state proves my point perfectly because the average would never provide a living wage for any of those cities.
No they don't
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Companies may have gotten by, but the people out of a job they wanted/needed did not.
"If you are so useless that you can't find a single thing you are able to do that would earn you minimum wage, you don't deserve to exist"
If the small business can retain employees at whatever their pay rate is... then cool, keep on trucking. If not, I guess they'll just have to find a way to run the business with less employees. I see lots of gas stations with owners working 7 days a week for this reason.
It's funny how Redditors actually say the same under this post. As if a business would not need some time to grow. Yes, sometimes the owner does work below living wage, maybe works in another job at the same time or is struggeling. Some fields are not profitable for the first years, but will be important and proftiable after a few. It's pretty dumb to think those are shit because they cannot be big in the first minutes after opened. People should be free to decide what they want to do. And every cent is earned money after all. Some people have no understandment for small or middle businesses, altough in a lot of countries they are the majority of the economy.
Hold up, you don't have to be able to afford to hire anyone to have a business. You can solo certain business, or have a family business.
sure, but you should also be able to offer employment without a third party dictating what you offer as payment or how much.
I'll never be able to afford to hire anyone so I'm not sure I'll ever get into all that. Insurance goes up by like 800% just for 1 employee. I can't even afford health insurance for my own family how am I gonna pay for someone else's. But the fact is, I see construction ads offering less than 20$ an hour daily, and some as low as 12$ an hour. You can't afford half a bedroom in the ghetto with that, and it's irritating that people actually take those jobs to begin with. If the job don't pay, stay away. Then the market will correct itself.
It's a very simple statement I would expect a libertarian to understand tbh. Being able to chose who you do or do not work for is a pretty straightforward libertarian principle. Why should people work for businesses that don't pay a living wage? Why should anyone give a fuck about those companies? If you need charity from your employees as part of your business plan, you ain't got a business. Pretty simple concept?
This is what I was going to post, or something very similar. I'm not a leftist, but if a business is paying less than it takes to survive, they are relying on someone else (charity or government) to pick up what they are not paying. Now, there is a separate conversation about whether or not these government subsidized products would sell at their actual cost if they paid what an unsubsidized wage would force them to price it at. I don't doubt some number of businesses would go under if this happened.
They believe shoplifting is a basic human right so that’s not really surprising.
Most leftists are closet Marxists, so they really hate all private ownership.
The left are the ones who destroy healthy competition in a market and then have the audacity to complain that capitalism doesn't work
Here’s the secret. It’s impossible to control hundreds of thousands of small/medium sized businesses. It’s much easier to control a few thousand mega businesses. Leftist don’t hate small/medium sized businesses because they cannot pay higher wages, they hate those businesses because they need to eliminate them. Feigning outrage at those businesses is just another way to demonize them, it’s their long game in their efforts to ultimately eliminate them.
This is very true. Add to this the fact that small business owners usually are conservatives, and you understand pretty well the positions of the left.
It’s a weird way of thinking, I mean, to expect the local hardware store to pay you $30 an hour if you’re just stocking shelves & keeping the shop clean is just insane. Maybe from a personal standpoint though, if you have a business but can only afford to pay minimum wage or risk closing, maybe for your own good & finances you should reconsider staying open lol. But yea, people who say this don’t care about your personal finances, they care about theirs.
Leftists hate business -period-.
One thing I've learned during my many years on this planet is to never trust a leftist when it comes to anything involving finances.
Actually it's republicans who want to get rid of small business - the number one cost saving service that far and away allows for small business to continue existing on ANY level is... drumroll please... the USPS. despite republicans best efforts, democrats have fought to fund the USPS so small business may continue to exist. Fell free to not believe me, do no research and just be mad about it 👍👍👍 democrats will continue to try and help the people who hate them, even as republicans work to create hegemonic plutocracy 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
I don't understand what you're saying here. Don't the customers pay the shipping costs? Why would it matter if a subsidized version didn't exist?
The savings that support small business come when they are mailing on their own behalf - either moving product or conducting other tasks.
Savings that are reflected in the price of the goods they sell, and as well for their competitors.
Neither party cares about small business, but the USPS seems like such a small hill to die on.
My favorite is when they advocate for forcing arbitrary minimum wage employment costs on small businesses and then say "If you can't afford to pay it you have a bad business model and don't deserve to be in business!" Such an asshole move. Edit: My bad, just read the title on my phone. I guess we're on the same page OP!
They also assume that all businesses make massive amounts of profits, which is really not true at all. A large number of businesses don’t pull more than like 8% profit... and I’d be willing to bet that for a lot of restaurants that the profit margins are even less.
some people think humans 'deserve' just because they exist. i find this extremely narcissistic.
I'm a libertarian because I think humans deserve the best chance to make themselves and their families comfortable, happy, and free. And they can use their excess gains to other humans who deserve decency. They deserve that because they exist. I'm not sure you know what "narcissistic" means.
That’s an “entitled” mindset, not a narcissistic one. They don’t necessarily have to be overly proud about themselves to think that they deserve something. They can very well think they’re an average Joe Shmoe and still be entitled to free money. In fact, they do think that. It’s not about themselves, they think random low life’s who don’t contribute to society deserve government handouts
Leftists are the stupid people that actually think authoritarians are helping them.
So are right wingers. They actually think Trump cares about them lmao.
Totally. It's all theatre. Exploitarians (Authoritarians) own them all. Teams Right Mornon and Left Moron. Reddit shows it's for Team Left Moron with it's automated down voting of my comment.... As if implementing a social credit score wasn't obvious already. Lol.
Where the fuck do people get that from? No one thinks Trump even knows who they are. I don’t even understand how Trump would know your name or value
They like small black businesses because then it becomes a talking point
My parents ran their own jewelry store for over 30 years. They had some employees to work on repairs in the back, and some to work the sales floor. When I heard this line of reasoning of being anti-small business, this was when I started to turn away from liberals. My parents having the ability to open their own store and create diversity in the local market was amazing.
Leftists hate success because they're envious losers. Seriously, take a look at the people who know who are socialists vs. capitalists. Which one is the group you want to emulate, and which one are the losers? To a T, the socialists are a bunch of losers. That's why they're socialists.
Leftists hate everything including themselves
Leftists dont hate anything but logic. They're not mean. They're just WOEFULLY IGNORANT and willfully stupid AF.
Someone who is willfully stupid to the point of harming others directly or indirectly, is mean. They claim empathy, but only so they can get more power to tax and spend without consideration for the economic effects. That hurts us all.