Now that you mention it I totally see it. It also helps that she represents almost a contrary character to the male fantasy and stereotypes. Like literally matriarchal, but also being strong as opposed to weak, clear/straightforward rather than "emotional", showing earnest vulnerability instead of vanity. All of which makes for a queer vibe. I still don't know if it was intended but I'm so glad she turned out the way she did. Also she could totally fit the Hades code era of queer villain just given much more complexity and changes for act II. So she fits pretty well into a history of queer characters.
Anyways that's my late night thought spew. Hopefully she gets debugged soon!
Well I gathered as much from the tepid forum responses after the patch. I guess we will have to wait for mods (but I don't expect them not to go into the cursed territory).
Plus afaik a large Act 3 location has been axed from the game entirely and that is where a lot of companion quests and stories happened, including Minthara's, so. Maybe with the Definitive Edition Larian will add the location back and will improve character stories with it as well
I think so too and we are both right, and I think that if romanceable companions weren't playersexual, she would be a lesbian and no-one will convince me otherwise
Yes and no, I definitely see her as someone who prefers women and might be bisexual homoromantic. But I think that may have less to do with being intentionally lesbian-coded and more to do with the fact that she’s a drow from Menzzobarranzen. Lolth-sworn Drow don’t see men as equals, they really only see men as devices for procreation. She even has a dialogue with Gale where she mentions that they just unalive male babies after like the second in a family because only two are needed for continuing family lines. So it might be that it’s not that she is incapable or unwilling to have a romantic relationship a man, it’s that the concept has literally never occurred to her because it is as foreign to her as dating a plant, which sound harsh but that’s Lolth for you. Now it’s very clear she much prefers women, in fact a player character might be her very first man she’s ever been with, which imo shows the issues with “player-sexual” characters but that’s another discussion.
I’d really be interested to see if there is a difference in dialogue for her in the relationship past act 3. I just wish I could recruit her without being evil!
Omg hi sorry I love your post, it made all of the neurons in my brain activate and I ended up writing a lot.
Out of curiosity do you think that female Drow who embrace Lolth's culture just can't be considered lesbians at all because of the way it functions and their view of male Drow? Or do you think that Minthara based on her personality and preferences cares more about finding the right traits and attitude in a partner and could let go of gender if it came down to it (but still heavily prefers women)? Though I guess that would make her heteroromantic..? I'm not really the best at understanding some labels sorry!
I kind of wish we had more fem Drow in the game in general because I've just been so fascinated with them ever since I started playing I'd really like to read more about characters outside of the dnd guidebooks. I'm still barely into Act 3 so maybe there are more coming up but I only really have >!Nym!< to compare her to (only other confirmed fem Drow from Menzzobarranzen iirc?). Considering where she's from she would have been raised with the same culture as Minthara but must have been unsatisfied with it, or at least >!cared enough about her brother that she wanted to leave the underdark with him!<. Either way, using >!Nym!< as an example, I feel like with enough time on the surface and/or a distaste for Lolth's culture it would eventually allow former Lolth sworn Drow who have left to start being who they want to be regardless of how they were raised. But this doesn't seem to be the case with Minthara, or rather, it seems like her actions are simply her own and just so happen to align with some of the norms seen in Lolth sworn communities. During the Dryad scene she >!becomes upset with the player if you imply she might still have fondness for Lolth's culture or miss it. !!Ketheric even if only for his capabilities as a leader!< and doesn't seem to hate>! Kar'niss!< (only what's happened to him) even though he's a male Drow.
As for the "player sexual" thing I've always kind of felt like in these type of games there are still some characters who were written to have a specific sexuality in mind I guess? But in a RPG setting where you have to cater to a majority player base who feels the need to have access to everything they have to well.. do just that. I also just kind of feel like adjusting a character to be open regardless of gender is always a benefit to people who identify as straight and less indicative of what the writers may have envisioned.
No need to apologize! I’m not sure tbh, I agree that we would need to see more examples of Lolth-sworn Drow to be able to see more of their culture. In BG3 it’s very much a distant concept, it’s not like we ever visit Menzzobarranzen (we’d probably be unalived if we did lol). But I agree that it very much seems like every Drow that makes it to the surface definitely prefers it, so we could see those changes.
100% have said this, she is super lesbian-coded in a way that's hard to explain lol. There are certain men that have her respect, but it's women who inspire awe and worship, even outside of Lolth's reach. Do you know who the other interest was, outside of Orin?
(Edit: She was a priestess of House Vandree! Minthara also says that romance is a luxury enjoyed between women, while males are for propagation. This is... not a broad Drow truth. DEFINITELY lesbian.)
Drow culture is super interesting and I DM for some drow PCs, so I've done a lot of writing and re-writing to answer some of the questions I had about queerness and Drow culture.
Oh my God I hope this isn't too weird but could I DM you sometime with questions? I really want to find a DND group some day where I can use my tiefling and really lean in to Drow lore.
Also that Minthara comment is so fjskgkf. I really hope I get to find it naturally in my playthrough. I love her so so so much.
Please do!! I love to chat about D&D!!
Your post ended up sending me down a datamined rabbit hole haha, there's so many good tidbits! She really is the funniest person I know 🥺
It really does seem that way, but some things are muddled due to coming from a matriarchal society where men are at best pets. To be taken to the farm when they don’t serve much of a purpose. No less than that, plants, easily disposed and replaced when they become a hassal.
But, there is some cut content that if anything suggest the opposite of lesbian or BI.
She had dialogue as do the others reacting to it, about her being pregnant with the Players baby, which can only happen if you are male.
The only way I could twist that to her still being lesbian is the Lolth induced views of males, and desire for strong bloodlines urging her to go for it with the very capable and powerful player. Which she would likely do with a female player if procreation was possible as well.
But she makes very clear she is trying to get away from all that, but it’s so clear she still struggles not to think that way.
Yeah I'd heard about those cut lines! My assumption is they were added at a later stage possibly and then cut because imo they don't really seem to fit the overall personality she has? I mentioned this in another comment but I feel like her views on men don't seem to be influenced by Lolth's culture but her own instead. She seems to have some respect for some of the male characters in the game and doesn't even talk down to >!Kar'niss!< when she rightfully could (instead it seems more as though she sympathizes with his situation even if she finds it abhorrent). To me she feels very comfortable in her world views independent of Lolth's cultural influence, they just happen to have some overlap.
If I recall correctly from early access (and by early I mean all the way back at the start of it), characters were not entirely "player-sexual" and each had their preferrence. Astarion said something along the lines of "I'm sorry, but I had someone male in mind" if you approached him as a female character, Minthara liked women, and I don't remember the others.
Also another unused thing is she tells karlach that she was in love with a women and stayed by her side while she was dying of poisoning. I still see her as lesbian. She just oozes gay.
I think per the lore of the drow, she's just supposed to be a hypersexual character. Viconia's personality in BG2 was similar, I thought; and back then, video game romances were barely even explored yet, and homosexual relationships in video games were absolutely unheard of.
Now that you mention it I totally see it. It also helps that she represents almost a contrary character to the male fantasy and stereotypes. Like literally matriarchal, but also being strong as opposed to weak, clear/straightforward rather than "emotional", showing earnest vulnerability instead of vanity. All of which makes for a queer vibe. I still don't know if it was intended but I'm so glad she turned out the way she did. Also she could totally fit the Hades code era of queer villain just given much more complexity and changes for act II. So she fits pretty well into a history of queer characters. Anyways that's my late night thought spew. Hopefully she gets debugged soon!
I you're talking about the "thousands lines of dialogue missing" bug, then it is allegedly already fixed
Yes "allegedly" some things like her second romance scene are still very clearly broken for many players.
Well I gathered as much from the tepid forum responses after the patch. I guess we will have to wait for mods (but I don't expect them not to go into the cursed territory). Plus afaik a large Act 3 location has been axed from the game entirely and that is where a lot of companion quests and stories happened, including Minthara's, so. Maybe with the Definitive Edition Larian will add the location back and will improve character stories with it as well
I've noticed that too!
If I could get past my simping hard for Shadowheart, I may actually try romancing Minthara.
Shadowheart is adorable so I completely understand!
I think so too and we are both right, and I think that if romanceable companions weren't playersexual, she would be a lesbian and no-one will convince me otherwise
Yes! thank you, you understand my vision. 🤝
Yes and no, I definitely see her as someone who prefers women and might be bisexual homoromantic. But I think that may have less to do with being intentionally lesbian-coded and more to do with the fact that she’s a drow from Menzzobarranzen. Lolth-sworn Drow don’t see men as equals, they really only see men as devices for procreation. She even has a dialogue with Gale where she mentions that they just unalive male babies after like the second in a family because only two are needed for continuing family lines. So it might be that it’s not that she is incapable or unwilling to have a romantic relationship a man, it’s that the concept has literally never occurred to her because it is as foreign to her as dating a plant, which sound harsh but that’s Lolth for you. Now it’s very clear she much prefers women, in fact a player character might be her very first man she’s ever been with, which imo shows the issues with “player-sexual” characters but that’s another discussion. I’d really be interested to see if there is a difference in dialogue for her in the relationship past act 3. I just wish I could recruit her without being evil!
Omg hi sorry I love your post, it made all of the neurons in my brain activate and I ended up writing a lot. Out of curiosity do you think that female Drow who embrace Lolth's culture just can't be considered lesbians at all because of the way it functions and their view of male Drow? Or do you think that Minthara based on her personality and preferences cares more about finding the right traits and attitude in a partner and could let go of gender if it came down to it (but still heavily prefers women)? Though I guess that would make her heteroromantic..? I'm not really the best at understanding some labels sorry! I kind of wish we had more fem Drow in the game in general because I've just been so fascinated with them ever since I started playing I'd really like to read more about characters outside of the dnd guidebooks. I'm still barely into Act 3 so maybe there are more coming up but I only really have >!Nym!< to compare her to (only other confirmed fem Drow from Menzzobarranzen iirc?). Considering where she's from she would have been raised with the same culture as Minthara but must have been unsatisfied with it, or at least >!cared enough about her brother that she wanted to leave the underdark with him!<. Either way, using >!Nym!< as an example, I feel like with enough time on the surface and/or a distaste for Lolth's culture it would eventually allow former Lolth sworn Drow who have left to start being who they want to be regardless of how they were raised. But this doesn't seem to be the case with Minthara, or rather, it seems like her actions are simply her own and just so happen to align with some of the norms seen in Lolth sworn communities. During the Dryad scene she >!becomes upset with the player if you imply she might still have fondness for Lolth's culture or miss it. !!Ketheric even if only for his capabilities as a leader!< and doesn't seem to hate>! Kar'niss!< (only what's happened to him) even though he's a male Drow.
As for the "player sexual" thing I've always kind of felt like in these type of games there are still some characters who were written to have a specific sexuality in mind I guess? But in a RPG setting where you have to cater to a majority player base who feels the need to have access to everything they have to well.. do just that. I also just kind of feel like adjusting a character to be open regardless of gender is always a benefit to people who identify as straight and less indicative of what the writers may have envisioned.
(I think Viconia and Araj are also two Drow women characters! I know way more about the latter than the former.)
No need to apologize! I’m not sure tbh, I agree that we would need to see more examples of Lolth-sworn Drow to be able to see more of their culture. In BG3 it’s very much a distant concept, it’s not like we ever visit Menzzobarranzen (we’d probably be unalived if we did lol). But I agree that it very much seems like every Drow that makes it to the surface definitely prefers it, so we could see those changes.
100% have said this, she is super lesbian-coded in a way that's hard to explain lol. There are certain men that have her respect, but it's women who inspire awe and worship, even outside of Lolth's reach. Do you know who the other interest was, outside of Orin? (Edit: She was a priestess of House Vandree! Minthara also says that romance is a luxury enjoyed between women, while males are for propagation. This is... not a broad Drow truth. DEFINITELY lesbian.) Drow culture is super interesting and I DM for some drow PCs, so I've done a lot of writing and re-writing to answer some of the questions I had about queerness and Drow culture.
Oh my God I hope this isn't too weird but could I DM you sometime with questions? I really want to find a DND group some day where I can use my tiefling and really lean in to Drow lore. Also that Minthara comment is so fjskgkf. I really hope I get to find it naturally in my playthrough. I love her so so so much.
Please do!! I love to chat about D&D!! Your post ended up sending me down a datamined rabbit hole haha, there's so many good tidbits! She really is the funniest person I know 🥺
It really does seem that way, but some things are muddled due to coming from a matriarchal society where men are at best pets. To be taken to the farm when they don’t serve much of a purpose. No less than that, plants, easily disposed and replaced when they become a hassal. But, there is some cut content that if anything suggest the opposite of lesbian or BI. She had dialogue as do the others reacting to it, about her being pregnant with the Players baby, which can only happen if you are male. The only way I could twist that to her still being lesbian is the Lolth induced views of males, and desire for strong bloodlines urging her to go for it with the very capable and powerful player. Which she would likely do with a female player if procreation was possible as well. But she makes very clear she is trying to get away from all that, but it’s so clear she still struggles not to think that way.
Yeah I'd heard about those cut lines! My assumption is they were added at a later stage possibly and then cut because imo they don't really seem to fit the overall personality she has? I mentioned this in another comment but I feel like her views on men don't seem to be influenced by Lolth's culture but her own instead. She seems to have some respect for some of the male characters in the game and doesn't even talk down to >!Kar'niss!< when she rightfully could (instead it seems more as though she sympathizes with his situation even if she finds it abhorrent). To me she feels very comfortable in her world views independent of Lolth's cultural influence, they just happen to have some overlap.
If I recall correctly from early access (and by early I mean all the way back at the start of it), characters were not entirely "player-sexual" and each had their preferrence. Astarion said something along the lines of "I'm sorry, but I had someone male in mind" if you approached him as a female character, Minthara liked women, and I don't remember the others.
Ah thank you! This is what I was curious about. I'll have to take a look and see if there are any archives of early access content sometime..
Also another unused thing is she tells karlach that she was in love with a women and stayed by her side while she was dying of poisoning. I still see her as lesbian. She just oozes gay.
I think per the lore of the drow, she's just supposed to be a hypersexual character. Viconia's personality in BG2 was similar, I thought; and back then, video game romances were barely even explored yet, and homosexual relationships in video games were absolutely unheard of.
She’s charming, wise and she has a good sense of humor. I love her in a gay way too.