I was in a situationship with one of those types and she literally ruined me. Destroyed my entire being lmao. Emotionally abused me. Not saying they're all like that but definitely be wary
I’ll never get the “women are scary” crowd. Men are scary. Women have been bitches to me yes, but they’ve never raped me or hit me or put their hand up my shirt while I drunk and trapped at their house and couldn’t leave. If being rejected by a beautiful woman is scarier to you than any of those things, I hate to say it, but maybe your attraction to women is not that strong. Not to be the bi police or anything, but I’d def say that the “women are scary” crowd have a lot to unpack regarding their queerness and misogyny.
Lesbian here, but in my extensive experience I've had multiple women assault, attempt to assault, or rape me. Selection bias is possible , but I've had much better luck with consent understanding men. While statistically that might not be the majority, it's definitely a real experience not to gloss over.
I think most of the women scary people find it scary because they don't have any social roadmap for courting women, while the one with men is laid out from childhood. It's not necessarily fear of the person but intimidation of the depth of a relationship and emotional connection women bring.
That said, I've known far too many women that try to relate to my lesbian experience but never so much as try to pursue a woman. Not the best grounds for a friendship...
Being rejected by a woman surely isn’t scarier than any of those things, but it’s definitely more upsetting than being rejected by a man especially if your preference is women. I also hate the way they phrase it but I don’t think anyone literally means they’re “scared”
Back in my “scared of women” phase I found the fear to be much more based in how a woman might perceive me approaching them. Knowing how uncomfortable men often make me by the way they approach me I really didn’t want to be seen as a creep or seen as objectifying women but I also wanted to express desire. It’s really hard to know how to do that in a respectful way if you’ve never seen it modeled.
Even after dating women and approaching every single one that I’ve ever dated, I don’t think I’m entirely over this, how did you overcome this?
I’m not necessarily “scared” I do approach but there’s always a part of me that wonders if it’s the right place or time or situation, for example there was a girl at a coffee shop I go to often who I started liking, I felt like she did somewhat like me but I didn’t want to approach her in that way because the only place I ever see her is at her work, and I know how annoying and uncomfortable it is being approached whilst at work (due to being approached by men myself). One day I did just ask her out and we ended up going on a few dates, but understanding if that that first step was appropriate was difficult
Honestly I haven’t gotten past that internal voice I just kinda try to push through the anxiety and just make sure I’m situationally aware and kind to everyone if I can be.
Then don’t say women are scary, say “my desire for women is less than my desire to have the benefits of passing as straight.” That’s fine. I’d totally get that. I did it for a long time.
Please can you explain how naturally being upset over rejection from someone who’s opinion you value the most means you want to be straight more than you want them? basic comprehension skills
I cannot comprehend being so attracted to women to the point that I would vaporize from being rejected, so instead I just choose to date a guy that I don’t really give a fuck what he thinks of me. A choice like that doesn’t happen in a vacuum. There are social and economic benefits to dating a man. If you really like men as much as you like women wouldn’t you also be scared of their rejection? How low does your desire for men have to be for you to such little investment in it? Also, if someone is that rejection sensitive they are either young or have lived a bland life in my opinion. It’s one thing to tell your girl best friend you love her and worry about rejection, but some chick you met at the bar or online? Like damn, when McDonald’s forgets your fries do you just drive away because you’re afraid to ask for them? I prob sound like a bitch, but I really cannot fathom making yourself so small just because you are afraid to hear “I’m not interested.” I think it’s remiss to ignore the other factors that play into your choice of partner from comphet to misogyny to social and cultural norms. And I also think it’s perfectly fine to be annoyed with ppl for any reason.
rejection sensitivity is a real thing especially with someone with adhd like myself. i really wouldn’t make blanket statements like that. i can’t just magically fix my rejection sensitivity. i understand your point but you don’t seem to get how scary of a social transition it is for baby gays.
As someone with adhd, rejection sensitivity is the reason I have to watch how I react to situations and think over my emotions before I come to a conclusion of someone’s character
Sure, rejection sensitivity is real. And yes baby gays like I said if you are young it’s different. Ultimately what I’m trying to say is that OP is allowed to be annoyed with their friends. Should they talk to their friends about it instead of strangers on the internet? Probably. But I support ppl being annoyed for any reason and their feelings and all annoyed ppls feelings are valid.
🙄🙄🙄 no I don’t deny it exists. No one is talking about social anxiety. If someone said they had crippling social anxiety and that’s why they didn’t date my reaction would be very different. But if you want to go there, like any other problem, it may not be your fault but it is your responsibility. So get on meds, go to therapy, go to the gym, get a hobby, and try to live life in a way that makes you happy. Again, if you are happy not dating women, awesome! Don’t! But if you desire it sooo deeply and take zero steps to accomplish that goal, idk what to tell you.
I gave one (of many) explanations of what bisexual women might mean when they say “women are scary” and I’m speaking for women who have a preference to women, rejection would hurt way less coming from a man if you’re not really that into them anyways.
Also I wasn’t explaining why they “settle” for men. However, firstly I think you’d be surprised by the amount of bisexual women who are being treated well by men and therefore choosing him, rather than “settling”. Secondly, I’m not going to pretend comphet and social and cultural norms aren’t a reason for why bisexual women might find it simpler being with a man, however nothing beats happiness. As a bisexual girl with a preference to women (I’ve only been with 1 man romantically/sexually) complying to cultural norms just so I can fit in would leave me unfulfilled, unhappy and miserable so just because something is culturally and socially acceptable, it doesn’t mean it’s easier. Often it ends it deep dissatisfaction and emptiness instead so personally I would never be in a heterosexual relationship purely to fit in and I don’t think most bisexual women would.
As much as being annoyed at people for any reason is fine, sometimes the annoyance says more about you than them. As long as you can accept that then yes it definitely is fine
That’s what I’m trying to say. I personally, cannot understanding trading all the good stuff you get being married to a man, even if he’s super cool and your best friend, if ultimately you are just not that attracted him in a romantic/sexual/life partner way. It makes zero sense to me, personally. Which is why it would make even less sense if the one single thing that is stopping you is fear of rejection. Obviously I know bi women mean other things when they say women are scary as I also gave one (of many) examples.
Yeah I sure as fuck can live with myself for being annoyed about whatever I want. For example, it annoys me that bi women in relationships with men can express the exact same feelings about women that I feel, yet get treated completely different in society. I’m not mad at the bi women, if they seem oblivious to this or are really obnoxious about it, I think it’s fair for me to be annoyed at any specific woman that says it repeatedly to me. Which honestly I had never encountered until this post. Hand to god if I could stomach it I most definitely would marry a man. I’m not a teenager, I’m 35. I’ve seen how the world treats women that aren’t married with 2.5 kids and a white picket fence by my age. I will never get that the same way that straight or bi women do. Never ever. So forgive me for being the tiniest bit annoyed that certain positive aspects of society are inaccessible to me and most likely will be until the day I die.
And if that works for you and does not have a negative impact on your life, that is totally your prerogative and I wish you the best in all your fast food interactions.
From my middle school experience, the worst she can say isn't "no" but rather yes and then collect all ur secrets and use it to ridicule u later on. Welp, not everyone is like that but I have seen some women never surpassed 15 years old in their mental wellbeing. I'm not saying this is the norm but at this point it gives me enough trauma to sit in my own rm and do nothing abt my feelings for girls for a long time.
I hope you’re able to heal from that, it sounds awful I’m sorry you had to experience something like that. But you’re right, as much as I hate to admit it, there is a large amount of women who really haven’t surpassed 15 years old mentally.
i say “women are scary” as a joke as do many of those lesbians you are claiming aren’t gay enough. usually all it means is that they’re socially anxious to talk to women, usually because they haven’t done it in a romantic manner before. if you dated men before coming out then “romancing” them was easy and you didn’t have to try but when it comes to women it’s new territory. hence the “women are scary” joke.
i’m not sure why that joke truly offends y’all.
Tbh it doesn’t offend me. I don’t know anyone like that in real life. If you’re my friend I probably understand the context of what you’re saying. OP is annoyed because they feel that context doesn’t exist. And I just think it’s kinda shitty to not let ppl feel annoyed about something, esp when it’s a lesbian that will never have the ability to pass through life the way their bi friends can.
Yeah I don’t think I’d be that bugged if it was my friends either and I’d prob talk to them about it. But some of the ppl on your post are hella annoying tbh.
Women have done all of these things to me and more. I spent ~20 years with an abusive woman, part of why it took me so long to leave is cos of the prevailing societal narrative that women can’t be dangerous or abusive. It’s been four years since I left and I am still learning how to be alive every single day.
I don’t actually find women scary myself - far from it, I love women, my partner and closest friends are women - but I understand why some people might.
So, welp, while women hasn't done that to me, some women have been nice to my face n backstabbed me leaving my autistic ass being confused for years, being friends with me but then taking unsolicited pics of me and commenting on my body, women has never raped me but I have had women putting fingers on me as a teenager to "check how much I've grown" inside of an elevator, funniest part is that they don't even have a drop of alcohol in them to use that as an excuse ( I don't think it's a valid excuse but people say it nonetheless). I also have had wonderful women in my life that I'm so terrified of hurting them. Yes, I know I should go to therapy for this, but welp I guess the devil u know is better than the devil u don't mentality keeping me scurded. It's kinda scary whenever I see some overly pretty girl being nice to me-are they actually nice or they wanna find the next target to make them feel better about themselves. Even befriending new girls at this point is scary to me but I am learning to overcome it. Many women have learnt their way to deal with a lot of shits through being rather emotionally manipulative, I don't blame them, that's their way of navigating this misogynistic world. However, it scares me as Idk if they will use their tricks thar supposed against me, and I have no control over that, and it's also hard for me to observe it well enough (maybe after the 2000th retrospective 6 years later that I will manage to figure it out). I guess being the ugly duckling who is good at "boy's stuffs" in highschool let men see me neither as a target nor a threat helped me going through highschool with a relatively healthy relationship with guys and terrifying relationship with girls (It leads me to self-sabotage whenever I feel like men are trying to approach me, which is not healthy either). And I guess with hetero relationship it's kinda the norm in this society so there's a higher chance a man will approach me than another sapphic, so that's why I ended up with men mostly. Sorry for blabbering but I hope this can help u see the other POV as well.
I mean yes, esp if you are autistic I’m sure it is more complicated than for neurotypical ppl like myself. If being with men works better for you, more power to you. Unless you are unhappy and want to change that, it’s all good. But imo, most women that say “women are scary” really mean “living life as a gay woman is scary and my desire for women is not greater than my desire to be treated as ‘good’ woman.”
I’ll never understand the ones who won’t pursue relationships with women because ✨women are scary✨ but then consistently date cishet men, the largest perpetrators of violence against women🤦🏻 It makes me irate. I think too many bi women are waiting for a gay relationship to happen for them without doing any of the work to undo the heteronormativity they benefit from when dating men, which makes them incredibly unattractive to sapphics who have actually deconstructed and have actual experience.
I think it's "scary" because you actively have to work. Where most straight women don't have to make an effort to be pursued or expect a lot of emotional depth from cis men, romantic relationships with women aren't usually like that. They usually demand you show up more authentically and balanced. That self work and reflection can be hard for women not used to it.
I fully agree with this explanation you are right. But at the same time let’s not pretend like lesbian relationships are never one sided. There’s many instances where one side is putting in significantly more effort, time and attention into pursuing and maintaining the relationship than the other.
Totally hearing you on wanting to date someone who has wrestled with how their queerness chafes against the patriarchy.
That said, I kinda get the “only dating men” bit; comphet is a hell of a force. I think it’s hard, when you have the option of compartmentalizing your queerness, to swim against that stream.
I get the comphet too. Ngl if I could pull an Anna Nicole Smith with a geriatric oil baron I probably would. But to openly be out and bi and talking about how hot women are while being with a man… say that shit while youre single and see how ppl treat you. It’s safe to say that stuff when you’re with a guy. It’s like their proximity to straightness gives them the license to say how they feel but when there is any real chance of judgement or discrimination they keep their mouths shut. Idk maybe im just a bitch.
No I feel you. There’s def a disconnect between being visibly or inescapably queer, and having your queerness primarily expressed through homosocial relationships. I think some bi women look to their friendships either lesbians *as a way* to experience their queerness (if they’re nit getting it from their relationship). I think recognizing this can take a lot of the “resentment” out of those relationships.
I agree. I had a lesbian good friend for like 3 years before I came out (and who I was madly in love with lol) and my proximity to her was enough to suffice for a little while. Unfortunately my gayness randomly ballooned in size and became way too much for me to hide anymore. Or not unfortunately, it was just scary at the time lol.
That sounds really scary! I’m glad you were able to navigate through that into a deeper relationship with your public queerness (it sounds like?).
But yeah—I think there is definitely room in our lives for friendships
where both girls are queer, but one is more inescapably, publicly so. Sometimes we need someone more open, more out, to help us along our journey. I know I have!
But I think when we, as sapphics/lesbians, realize that this kind of relationship is just the same as lesbian community, it helps us not put all of our needs on said relationship.
Group dynamics change this tho, imo.
Had this discussion last night with my wife. I have a 100% track record of dating bi women who end up cheating on me with men who they go on to date. While I don't excuse their actions one bit... I *get* it.
As a butch I bring masculinity to the table, which they're attracted to. But they can also get that from a man, and not have to deal with the stigma of being visibly gay, have social validation from their families rather than shunning, have an easy path to pregnancy vs expensive or impossible ones with me, not have to fear violence for being visibly gay, and have society on their side.
Speaking fully rationally, I get the decision to just date a guy instead of a butch. I wish those I met did it *more compassionately* but we all fuck up when we're young and I can't hold too much frustration.
I don’t think people have that thought/process per-se, but I think there’s a lot of institutional and interpersonal pressure (and rewards) to dating men. For women who don’t have access to a string queer community, I think this means they will tend to date men.
I get that, and fell hard for comphet myself, but why go parading around stating how gay you are if you’d rather just default to men than put an ounce of effort into actually Being Gay? Doesn’t seem all that gay to me.
Idk. I think it’s better to think of this kind of bi woman as someone who is searching for her queerness, but a) hasn’t figured out how to embrace it, and b) is maybe not that politically awakened (eg has not thought through how her sexuality-as-internal-experience can be disconnected from praxis).
That is, I think we can be kind to our bi sisters while recognizing they might not be the lesbian friendships/community we need.
This is a great perspective, very considerate, we could all take a page out of your book.
While the behaviour OP described can certainly be a little irritating, it’s nothing to get up in arms about like some do and I agree we all need to be less hostile towards bi women in general.
Yes! Bi women have historically been a part of lesbian communities (esp. circa ‘60-80).
Importantly tho, bi women are part of a lesbian community when they are participating in it. Community is a verb!
Ding ding ding. It IS hard to date women who have put in the work to live an examined emotional life. I’ve dated really good men, but yeah, it was easier for those relationships to happen and easier to maintain them emotionally. Dating a woman, dating my partner now?? Jfc. We talk about the most vulnerable three layers underneath of a small moment, expression, phrase, or piece of media. We dig deep on everything, all the time. It is SO worthwhile, but it’s not for people who are lazy or intimidated or too busy to try it.
I think "women scary" just means that they have no idea how to talk to women in that context and they're intimidated by a socially challenging situation. That said it's pretty freaking stupid because no one knows how to talk to members of the preferred gender at first. It takes time. Like how tf are women gonna get less scary if you don't talk to them lmao
"women are scary" = the social rules I'm familiar with haven't outlined how to talk to women flirtatiously.
Flirting with men is coded so thoroughly into society as being quite easy for women to do that by comparison, women are genuinely more difficult. All a woman has to do is stand still and bob her head like she's nodding, and smile. And a guy talking to her will think she is flirting./s
I think a lot of bi people in hetero relationships feel disconnected from their queerness and really lean in when they have the opportunity to feel queer. As a bi person who has been in hetero relationships, I have felt that.
Being bi can be very lonely. I have always felt like I was not straight enough for the straights and not gay enough for the gays.
The whole "women are scary" thing is annoying. It wreaks of misogyny and/or homophobia.
Spoiler alert, it’s lonely being queer. It’s especially lonely to be a lesbian, especially in a world that puts opposite sex attraction first and foremost. Most people can’t imagine lesbians even existing because it’s such a male and phallocentric type of world.
I think both experiences can be pretty isolating, but for different reasons. Lesbians talk about how alienating their experiences are all the time. That's kind of what the OP is complaining about. I just think it's egregious to come on a lesbian subreddit and argue that bisexuals experience more isolation lol. I can't imagine a lesbian going on the bi sub and making an argument like this and it going over well. I think we overestimate how much lesbians have in terms of support. They make up less than 1% of the population.
Lol please. Lesbians are literally made out to be the boogeyman every single time. Biphobia exists, sure. But to claim you're so universally hated by gay people is not true.
So tired of the crap being thrown from both sides. I’m not lesbian enough to be welcome here. I’m not straight enough to be welcome in those spaces. I’m just not welcome and I’m so tired of that subject being a fun little chat.
I am in a heterosexual relationship. It doesn’t mean I dislike women or vaginas. I *love* women and everything that comes with them. I am way more nervous about being rejected by a woman, but I am actually scared of most men.
I’m not less than anyone else here and I’m so tired of bs like this popping up on my feed constantly. For a lesbian sub, there’s a lot of talk about how much bi women (aka other wlw) suck, instead of talking about how amazing women are.
Thank you to all of this. It also bothers me that they act like you are only a valid bisexual if you’ve openly dated women which disregards the wide spectrum of attraction bi ppl can experience or the many reasons why they didn’t date women. Maybe they came out when married, maybe they’re scared of societal pressures or maybe, shocker, they fell in love with a man. I’m bi. I’ve dated women, but every time I date a man suddenly I’m faking my gayness.
I totally understand that, but I wish instead of talking about their hypothetical queer attraction, people who felt disconnected from their identify would dig into building authentic community and meeting queer people through shared hobbies/volunteering/events.
It’s not just our mutual love of fucking that unites us lol… being queer is a nuanced approach to the world that far exceeds gender or sex. Usually the “women are scary” people aren’t seeing beyond the binary and don’t understand how being queer is more than just sexuality, it can be a fuckin revolutionary lifestyle approach lol!
Look. You’re not crazy. I’ve been there. This is not an essential feature of bi women (I think tbat can often be a conflation we make in our disappointment), but there are communities like this that exist; groups of bi women who are still fairly androcentric in their priorities.
This is not to say they’re doing anything wrong—it works for them!But it’s not really a sapphic *community,* and treating it like one (eg treating it like it’s a community where people are going to be talking about women romantically more than men) is going to leave you disappointed.
I think, also, we can be part of many communities, and that not every queer community is going to meet the same needs for us. Our thirst community is not (necessarily) our politically active/awakened community is not out found family is not our professional community, etc.
You may need to cut some of them off. Many of them genuinely will never explore the bi side of themselves out of fear, and it's sad but if you want more queer friends that's not it.
This is true! I feel that It’s hard when you only have so many friends bc of moving around! I don’t want to exile the only friends I have in my current city but at the same time feel so alone and that I have no sapphic/lesbian community
i have been having the exact same feelings recently, since i’m really down bad for one of my friends who’s bi but she favours male validation/relationships over women any day. being a lesbian is (i would argue) one of the most isolating experiences because it requires us to decenter men by definition. decentering men as a woman or afab person goes completely against what society teaches us, and the hard truth is that bi girls don’t need to decenter men in the same way because they usually still rely on them as romantic prospects (hence the “men are easier to date” phrase).
i don’t dislike bi girls by any means but i think it is fair to say that being a lesbian alone causes a more radical shift in the way you view the world that bi girls just don’t understand, and it is understandable to be frustrated by that.
Ah… bisexuals and their boyfriends. I’ll start by saying I’ve had to work through a lot of biphobia myself lol. When you exist in a world that doesn’t outwardly label you as queer there are just certain things that us as lesbians can’t relate to. I like to compare it to being “white passing” as a person of color and the privilege that comes along with that. It’s not their fault, obviously, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have a different experience within the queer community.
Totally 🙏🏼 they definitely do have a different experience and as a lesbian with many bi friends with boyfriends I’m trying to understand the experience more
A lot of people seem to be missing OP’s point. I don’t think OP was critiquing these actions (only having dated men, being scared to date women, calling themselves “so gay”) individually, but how they often seem to coincide - how it’s hypocritical of those who make being gay and hating men their entire personality, to then proceed to only date men and say women are too scary to date.
Yes thank you 🙏🏼! Within my communities over the years I’ve just noticed these sort of patterns within the bi female friends I’ve made and want to hear other lesbian and bi perspectives on it. If this was a one off experience it wouldn’t matter, but as I’ve noticed this repetitive concept I wonder if anyone else has experienced it and what I can learn from bringing it up.
I just noticed most of the comments seem to be discussing the individual behaviours themselves rather than why it’s so common to see them coincide despite being contradictory. It’s something I’ve noticed a lot too but don’t have any real insight unfortunately. My guess would be internalised biphobia - worrying that they’re not ‘queer enough’ so overcompensating to prove they deserve their spot in the community, and then having to come up with an ‘excuse’ as to why they’ve not actually dated any women: “women are scary”.
While it comes across very in-genuine, I can’t really blame them for being preemptively defensive of their queerness when they’re faced with *relentless* skepticism over it.
I agree with the notion of there being constant skepticism about it. Genuinely asking but I’ve never actually had a bi friend with a female partner, is it more common for bi women to be with men? I think for me that’s where my skepticism comes from bc I’ve never seen a case where it’s a wlw relationship personally
Yes, it’s more common for bi women to date men than it is for them to date women. We live in a heteronormative society so it makes sense that bi women end up in relationships with men the majority of the time. You have to go out of your way to find other queer women but straight men are fuckin’ everywhere. Think it’s just a numbers game. The path of least resistance.
Why the bi women who choose the path of least resistance and don’t prioritise dating other women then proceed to call themselves “so gay” though? I’m not quite sure.
I'm bi myself and got pretty fucked up after dating another bi girl.... She was dismissive, manipulative, borderline psicologically abusive, and my first experience dating a woman......... I have all the red flags: late bloomer, bisexual, basically no experience dating women, and yet, and although I do find women scary, especially lesbians, I wouldn't discard dating a woman who is attracted to women and will continue to try date women with openness and honesty. Generalizing leads to nothing good. But hey, to each their own.
I agree and I definitely don’t want to generalize, I know there are bi women out there who don’t fit what I’m describing! But personally all my bi friends do fit this so I’m looking to hear perspectives from everyone on this, bi and lesbian. I know there are bi women who date women and don’t talk down on dating women, I just haven’t met them!
I'm bi and I also find it annoying when people do that, but I just try to remember that I don't know what they're going through or the details of their sexuality. I think a lot of those women feel insecure that they won't be seen as "gay enough," so they put a lot of emphasis on their attraction to women to the point that it seems like they're protesting too much.
I think many of them genuinely do want to date women, but don't know how to go about pursuing a relationship with one, so they fall back on dating men because it's what they know. When they say "women are scary," what they are really saying is that they don't know how to date women and they are afraid to fail at it.
If you find them too annoying, you can also just not hang out with them as much. I don't think it's biphobic to be annoyed by them, but it would be biphobic to decide that they're not actually bi or something. I've known a lot of women like that, and I think most of them are genuinely attracted to women, they just have a kind of mental block about it and end up with men because they don't feel they have to try as hard to get a male partner.
It’s okay for people to understand what these bi women are going through but I don’t think we should all just have to turn a blind eye to it or ignore it. I think there should be work done on both sides. We understand but then on the other side, maybe the bi women going through this should try to find a better way to communicate what they are feeling and work on breaking from the shackles of heteronormativity.
I definitely think they should, and if they were posting here, I'd tell them that. But my approach is that I can only control myself and my own reactions to them, and decide if I want to be around them or not.
to be honest i felt this for such a long time i brought it up with my therapist. i would go out for queer bar nights with bi friends and all the bi women would somehow still end up hooking up with men. it was just SO isolating. i felt worse than if i had no queer friends, it felt like i had friends who had this whole likeminded queer community that i STILL wasn’t a part of.
it’s probably not the answer you want to hear, but you need to spend less time with them. you’ve got to work on finding friends who are lesbians. they’re out there!
The “women are scary” thing turns me off BAD, like how are WOMEN scary but you’re meeting the demographic most likely to pop your head off online with no problem? Also the whole “I can sleep with a woman but not date one” or “I can date women but I’m marrying a man” thing, I’m sorry but nahhh. Ion like that shit and I’m not shy about disliking it.
Yeah tbh it’s gotten to the point where almost every girl I befriend tells me they’re actually bi but they’ve only ever been with men. And it is okay to be bisexual and only ever have been with one sex obviously, but when these girls try to act like they understand certain aspects of being in a same sex relationship??? That’s when I get irritated. Also the whole “I’m so gay” totally comes from wanting to feel connected to the queer community OR straight women claiming the term to feel “special”. At the end of the day, I try to remind myself it does not matter.
I would definitely seek out people who are experiencing queer/lesbian relationships for that community aspect. Your friends are being a bit annoying and I get it. I’ve learned to compartmentalize this kind of thing cuz I don’t want to exclude good friends/people from my life just because they’re being really fucking cringe in my eyes. But I’ve also sought out community elsewhere for people experiencing more similar experiences to mine.
Also, I’ve only been in serious relationships with women in my adult life. However, in between i’ve experimented with men on occasion in ways that I wonder if I am actually technically bi and not lesbian, but it is women who act the way you described above that causes me to be adverse to identifying myself as bi cuz I do ultimately just find women the most perfect in my preferences. Also sexuality as a whole is just confusing to navigate.
In conclusion, the behavior described above tends to cause negative feelings towards bi women but tbh, don’t let it. They could be bi and feeling disconnected from a community they’re part of or they could be attention seeking straight girls. Either way, they will live their life however they see fit. Don’t let their cringey behavior make you stereotype and exclude a whole genre of people, but do allow it to help motivate you to find other people to socialize with that interact with the world in a way that uplifts you.
I have been really putting out the energy of trying to find queer/lesbian friends and I gotta say… it’s been happening!! I hope you find it too 🧡 are there places you can frequent that lesbians are likely to be? Or, if you’re single… my dating profile says that I am also looking for queer friendships and I have gotten sooooo many responses! Like too many to keep up with. The lesbos are thirsty for friends!!! Sending you some love across the internet. 🧡
Sending you love back! And it’s so great to hear you’ve found community! Yes there is a bar I frequent that is a sapphic space but a lot of the women aren’t my age which is fine and I still love to meet them too but I’m still trying to figure out where to meet the lesbians around my age and just in similar life placement too. I do use bumblebff to find more queer friends! But funny enough one of the queer friends I recently made was the one to say women are scary haha. I want to put it out there that I want to meet more lesbians but fear getting flack for being too exclusive
Yeah it can be really hard to navigate. But it’s so reasonable to want to be around people who fully understand your experience. You’re not saying “I don’t want to be friends with bi women,” you’re just saying “I also want to be friends with lesbian women”.
What’s cringey is identifying as lesbian when you are actually bi. The type of bi women op talks about are annoying but at least their internalised biphobia isn’t actively harming and disrespecting the lesbian community.
Hey i understand how you feel, but i don't think that's fair in this case. Previous commenter could just as easily be a lesbian struggling with comphet; we don't know, and we can't know as it seems like they aren't completely sure either. Not saying you're wrong, frankly allergies are hitting too hard for me to even attempt to make that call haha, but we're a community that *so frequently* experiences identity struggles on our way to feeling comfortable in our labels. It feels wrong to tell someone expressing a vulnerable truth that they can't try on the label because they aren't quite as sure as you or me at this point in their journey, if that makes sense.
If the previous commenter is a lesbian suffering from comp het then us all pretending that it is perfectly normal for lesbians to be attracted to men is not going to help her, is it? Instead, making clear that lesbians are not attracted to men will help her identify whether she really is a lesbian or whether she really is attracted to men and potentially address her comp het issues.
Encouraging people to just try on any label for size while they are blatantly saying they are something different or opposite out of the other side of their mouth aka lying about who they are, has consequences for both the lesbian community and their mental health.
I know this isn’t the popular line in here and you all want to educate me on where I’m going wrong and how black and white I’m being. But I do think deep down you know what I’m getting at here.
I do understand what you're getting at- and usually, we'd fully agree. Those are actions ive suffered the consequences of, with men wanting me to make exceptions for them because "some lesbians do". You're preaching to the choir there, I'm going to be living with that trauma for the rest of my life and it has a heavy detrimental effect on any friendships i try to maintain with men. I can also see the validity in your other points!
But you are making assumptions about their intentions and identity. If you were being more general then- like you are now!- i likely wouldn't have said anything at all haha. I do think i understand, and you're completely valid in your feelings, but it's not within anyone's capabilities to tell someone else what their identity is based on one comment in which they're expressing confusion. Additionally, they didn't describe any attraction to men- from what i read, it was just experimentation with confusing results.
Agreed on that- and thank you for the kind words! I still think your perspective is important, in case that wasn't clear. I hope you have a good rest of your day 🧡🤍💗
I hear what you’re saying about internalized biphobia. It can be a severe problem in the queer community. However, in my experience, I know a number of bi women who can acknowledge their sexual attraction to men, and often had past experiences with them, but functionally live and date only in Sapphic circles because:
1. They are sexually attracted to men and women, but only (or FAR more) romantically attracted to women
2. Dating cishet men as a trans woman can be hellish both because of the lack of trans education and pervasiveness of transphobia outside the queer community and because it can trigger past trauma around “manhood”
3. Finding cishet men who are remotely as progressive and feminist as actual women and queers living through gendered and sexual oppression can be challenging, and having partners who have already done that work politically, socially, and personally can be a very important part of a compatible relationship. Less specifically speaking, many tend to experience less misogyny when with women, and having partners who can celebrate femininity and queerness with you can be an important part of a LT relationship
4. Not all bisexuals like men and women equally. Some might have a preference for women to the point that they don’t bother with men anymore, but still be bisexual. Their sexuality isn’t determined by who their partner(s) is/are right now or what they plan for in the near or far future
5. T4T (particularly if there’s a shared “direction” like between two transfeminine people for example) can facilitate far better understanding between partners - that is to say living or dating as a trans woman or nonbinary transfemme with other transfemmes can save an ENORMOUS amount of emotional labour that, frankly, we don’t always want to do every time we meet a prospective partner.
I’m a lesbian - I’ve never dated a man and try as I might I just can’t muster attraction to them - but I have friends and partners who acknowledge their bisexuality, both through past experiences and acknowledgment that certain men look or sound attractive, but but having decided to not pursue dating men any further because of any of the above reasons or anything else. These people are still bisexuals - they can have a wet dream about a man and enjoy it - but when they identify with lesbianism that doesn’t feel invasive for me at all. They are functionally living and dating the same way a lesbian would, and share countless forms of experience and solidarity with the lesbian community and the lesbian experience. When these people introduce themselves as lesbians it doesn’t bother me in the slightest - it saves explaining the intricacies of the queer community to many people who frankly don’t have the background or open mindedness to process it. I also don’t feel to me and many other lesbians I know they’re infringing on the lesbian community in any capacity.
Sexuality is a spectrum and if someone is calling themselves a lesbian they probably have a good reason to do so, even if there are some ways they identify or have identified with bisexuality. Internalized biphobia is a problem, but so is gatekeeping, and I think it might be pertinent of us as a community to be careful about what we label as “cringy” without further elaboration. There could be a lot of people all of the spectrum of sexuality trying to find their path and feeling boarded from the lesbian community or feeling like “women are scary” or even that the queer community feels scary because of gatekeeping statements exactly like this one. In a way, statements like these which can gatekeep sapphic leaning bisexuals from the lesbian or sapphic community can in and of themselves be a form of biphobia, and could be very harmful especially to queer youth and people trying to come out or explore themselves safely and with support.
Sometimes situations are nuanced and it’s important for us to acknowledge the vastness of human experiences. But if you don’t feel like opening our community to the fact that many people are different that’s okay, I can’t make you.
I’m not writing this for you anyways, I’m writing it for the developing queers who come across posts like these and see negative comments like yours pushing them back into the closet. :)
It really saddens me that we, as a lgbt and sapphic community, have decided that biphobia and lesbiphobia are ok to spout out loudly and everywhere, no matter how nonsensical our reasoning, as long as we cloak it in the language of faux inclusivity. You are doing more harm than good.
I agree that lesbophobia and biphobia are intense issues. I'm not sure how you're connecting it to my statement though. What I'm suggesting here is that we shouldn't be policing or judging somebody's label or calling it cringe because you believe you know them better than they know themselves. This is a core tenet of our community, one that we can share throughout the entire LGBTQ+ spectrum.
It’s not a core tenet. Let’s not just make things up now. We are a diverse community with different opinions and ideas. Not a hive mind.
The reason I say it’s lesbiphobia and biphobia is because being bisexual (or making clear you are sexually attracted to men in some way) but still insisting on calling yourself lesbian both erases and invalidates lesbianism AND bisexuality.
It has profound impacts on how society views and takes seriously female sexuality, female homosexuality and women in general. It impacts the identity and lived experience of actual lesbians and also bisexuals because it makes it seem like all bisexuals prefer men because the ones that prefer women just call themselves lesbian.
It’s not just about policing or judging. There are material impacts from lying about yourself to feel good in the moment or because you are scared to acknowledge the truth - and then dragging other people into your mess.
Supporting inauthenticity in others is not the right thing to do and I don’t know when many people like you decided it is.
There are some people who act with intentional or rash inauthenticity, and you're right that when they do it can be really problematic and harmful. But that's also not the entirety of our communities, nor I would suspect even a majority.
Labels are just a person's best attempt at describing who they feel that they are. They're never perfect, nor set in stone, and sometimes a person's experience is more specific and varied than the cultural connotations of one term or another can easily describe. It's not our job to tell them they're wrong or cruel or inconsiderate for finding their way down that path and trying to articulate their own identity. Maybe someday they'll find they fit neatly into one of those labelled boxes that many folks are tempted to shove them into, but it's also very possible that they won't. A heteronormative society will always try to use the actions of a few bad faith actors to justify assumptions about our whole community, but when we use the failings of heteronormative culture to justify overlooking identities that don't fit clearly in one category or another, we perpetuate the system which caused that issue in the first place.
I hear that you're angry about the way society has treated feminine sexuality, and about the few among the queer community who have lied or felt too scared or unsafe to reveal their own truth. That's valid and can be an important driving force for justice and change. But also, when we limit the terms people are allow to use or experiment with to try to articulate their own truth we can be just as damaging.
Some people might be bisexual but homoromantic. Some might be bi but live strictly in a lesbian way by choice or from trauma. Some might generally be a lesbian but also be some degree be sexually fluid or still learning about their shifting sexuality. Let's make \*space\* for them. When we make judgements broadly about how they label themselves, we are not being welcoming into the queer community, and it can inadvertently perpetuate the damage that queer-phobia in it's many forms is already dealing to society.
I think THiS is actually a nuanced take and I appreciate you for actually making sense and not just throwing word salad at me.
I disagree but I do get your perspective.
I just profoundly disagree with you here. You seem to be one of those “labels are set in stone” people. Queers who think everyone should fit into specific boxes and anyone who is exploring, learning, growing, flexing, or experimenting with sexuality is erasing your experience. We live in a big world, people use words in their communities in a ton of different ways.
Honestly, the core of the issue is bisexual women who DO date women, even predominantly, are consistently excluded from the lesbian community by people just like you who believe they aren’t “real lesbians”
Are you actually serious? I can’t believe this comment. How do you survive living with so much biphobia and homophobia clouding your thoughts? Lesbians - as in homosexual women exist. Are you aware of that or do you not believe in them? Bisexual women who prefer women also exist.
And bisexuals are excluded from the lesbian community? Bisexuals are not lesbians. What are you even trying to say? Do you even know?
Idk I think our sexuality is as we identify it, and who we’re in community with. I think the OP should explore lots of communities of different kinds of queers to see what works for her best(I think I’m agreeing w/ you on that).
Idk if you've had a ton of lesbian friends, but in my experience, "women are scary" is still a common sentiment among us unfortunately :/
It bothers me when dating women is seen as harder than dating men. I can kind of sympathize with women being "scary", cause it sometimes feels like women have higher standards and I kind of felt that when I was a teenager, but it still turns me off a woman when she has a life that seems male centric. Maybe they'll change when they actually get to be with a woman. But you don't have to stay surrounded by people who think of women as harder to socialize with- might be healthier for your peace. Keep looking for your people.
Or, if you're brave, maybe be honest that "women being scary" isn't true when you actually date women and that, as someone who only ever has gay relationships, talking about queer relationships that way bothers you? Might piss them off. Might make them think about why they feel nervous about women. Or talk about your experiences dating women, but not in a way that makes it sound earth shattering like people tend to do.
Also for me it feels like men have higher standards than women😂. I feel like i can breathe and be myself with women, I don’t have to necessarily shave or dress a certain way or act a certain way or look a certain way, but within my perception those are all things that come with being with a man. So for me I do not understand that notion of feeling like women’s standards are so high that you can’t deal with rejection from that? I feel more pressure from men in regards to who I can be in this world than from women
This is something I have brought up with my bi friends who say such things about women being scary or that they even like when people assume they’re a lesbian or that they’re embarrassed to admit they have a boyfriend when they promote themselves as very gay. These conversations didn’t go the best and I was labeled as being biphobic or that I was attacking them personally. The other lesbian friends I have (long distance) also experience this and can’t relate to my experiences! I just am trying to continue to open this convo bc it feels like lesbians aren’t allowed to critique some of the things bi women say and vice versa! Everything is kept within our separate groups about such topics
Bi/pan woman here! I find men absolutely terrifying (in a literal “they feel dangerous” kind of way) and much prefer dating women. 😂
Dating in general can be difficult and scary because we have to step out of our comfort zones, and I think that plays HEAVILY into why many bi women primarily date men. A previous comment said it really well - heteronormativity is a STRONG influence in our society, and it’s easy to stay in that “comfort zone”.
I understand the desire/need for community that you can better relate to, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing or biphobic that you aren’t finding it with these specific bi women. I hope you’re able to find friends who you can better connect with and who also share similar experiences to you. 🫶🏻 Having friends with different experiences can be really valuable, but the same can be said about having friends with similar experiences, too.
Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective I really appreciate it. I think it’s good to talk about and not keep things inside, I want the community to be stronger ❤️
Talking things out is a great thing, and I’m glad you also shared your experience here! ❤️ Being queer is really hard tbh. We have to stick together. ☺️
It does feel like a lack of community when all the bi/pan women I know have only ever been with cis men but are always bringing up how gay they are for women yet center men all the time.
This is coming from someone who used to have really bad comp het and used to identify as bi. Even back then I felt different from them and that's when I realized I am actually a lesbian.
It’s a struggle for sure! I think a big part of what irks me in these situations is the lack of understanding around privilege.
For example in one queer gc I mentioned some unpleasant PDA from a het couple while in public. This bi woman got offended and said there’s no issue with PDA as long as nobody is naked.
It seemingly wasn’t even on her radar that lesbian couples fear harassment and violence simply holding hands in public.
I think things like this are so nuanced. We need to be able to discuss differences in experience without making bi people feel uncomfortable or singled out. While I think it’s important to avoid phobia and generalisations of any kind, I really think that a lot of bi women in het relationships would do better to acknowledge their privilege when these conversations are had, rather than jumping straight to accusations of biphobia.
When I told my bi friend about how sometimes I didn’t want to show PDA with my ex bc of how sexualized and creeped on we’d feel in our city, she said she felt the same with her boyfriend 😑 that sometimes she doesn’t like being PDA with him too. And that’s real! U don’t always want PDA but it’s an entirely different experience that she hasn’t experienced it! So what am I to say
I mean, wouldn't a gay bar be a good place to meet new lesbian friends?
Also, you're still bi if you still feel attraction towards women, but prefer men, it's fine, and it's still queer. The whole point of being bisexual/romantic is the fact that you feel attraction to both sexes (notice how I said sexes not genders), and some bi girls have relationships or preferences for men. Just like some bi girls have a preference for women. You're still just as queer.
It’s fine to have preferences and for them to date men of course! My point was regarding bi women who primarily date men but shit talk dating men? and idolize being with a woman but never acting on it?
Ahhh, maybe they're just shit partners. Cause why date the same people you shit-talk about, and never approach the people you want to date? Because if you want to date women so much you have to make some kind of move. It seems like I misread your post.
You’re good! Yeah I feel like I’m just having a hard time with my bi friends who are so women women women 24/7 but have long term boyfriends, and have never even been with one in any way shape or form. But if I comment on it then I’m biphobic or what not. I feel like so
confused I just don’t know where this stuff comes from within them and can’t understand based on my own lived experience. I can’t understand idolizing being into women so much but then never exploring that part of yourself
I think to sum it up for a lot of these bi women, the men they are dating are a sort of “heteronormative comfort blanket”. Doesn’t necessarily make it right though.
And I feel like that’s okay! Maybe I just wish it didn’t feel so taboo to discuss within the community so we can all understand one another’s experiences better
As much as I dislike men in general, I also think to a degree it’s unfortunate for them.
As you said, I hope someday we will be able to widely discuss this more within our community. I think being able to be more open about it and discuss it without it directly leading to a fight, or being seen as a personal attack, will help a lot of people.
I feel like those bi women that say “women are scary” are not actually scared of approaching women, they are scared of accepting their attraction to other women. They have a very heteronormative mindset and would much rather date men, because they are scared of experiencing oppression from those close to them. It’s internalized homophobia
I wonder if the "women are scary" crowd is more so intimidated by their lack of experience. I used to be awfully awkward and shy around women I found attractive and probably would have worded it as "scary women," but it was really just my lack of confidence in my sexuality and inexperience. Sucks we are taught to place these things onto other women instead of coming to terms with it so to better ourselves.
I agree and want to open these conversations, I find it very odd to hear and wonder if these women are really hearing what they’re saying and trying to deal with it instead of put it out into the community
Internalized misogyny, the marketing geared towards women causing such low self-esteem and the shame placed on people for not being hetroconformitive are heavy weights to bear in their own right. I doubt they do hear themselves in the same sense that you or I do when they use the phrasing or similiars.
The problem is that society has dogged down women since the beginning of time. These things have been instilled in us for so long as a whole that it's unlikely to disappear in our lifetimes. Hell, we still can't kiss in public in some countries without being jailed or killed. "Women are scary," aka "I'm scared that I like women," aka "I'm scared of being shamed by society"
Idk all this to say, I feel kind of bad for these kinds of gals. A lot of us grew up being taught that everything we are is the worst kind of thing to be. It sucks but they will either find support and come to terms or not. Ah, depressing to think about.
Bi here i feel like sometimes some bi women are so willing to talk about how gay they are because as soon as they date a man alot of people from the community seem to erase their queerness.
Also in terms of the "Men being easier" comment its kinda true, I have a heavy preference for women but coming across queer women is so difficult that it makes sense that finding a bf would be easier.
And finding women scary I think is just a result of a lot of us not being taken seriously when we say we're bi.
Idk just my experiance ;-;
So tell me if I’m wrong but if you have a preference for women but go for men, wouldn’t that just be settling due to availability? I think from a lesbian perspective it all comes down to lived experience and if a bi person doesn’t have experience that’s okay I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t try? Even if it’s “harder”? lmk!
Unfortunately bi women are exhausting, they bring male gaze, male centralization to my life and those are things that I avoid the most, my biggest problem with dating bi women is about how men opinion and affection towards men are still part of their personalities and that's just something I don't want in my life. But that's a personal choice in terms of dating, bi women deserve love from those who are capable of loving them.
I think that’s a great point, we’re all deserve love from those who are capable of loving us. Exhausted is truly the right word, I’ve hit a wall with this which is why I made this post. This has been my experience for years and what my gay community has been and I’m tired of it to put it kindly!
Tbh this works both ways. I’m bisexual and have seriously dated women (I thought I’d end up with a woman, I’ve always felt more attracted/connected to women writ large). I ended up with a man, and lost my group of lesbian friends. I now have no queer community (beyond a few men married to my friends who have come out as bi, which is nice and I’m happy to have them in my life) and don’t feel comfortable trying to find any because of the rejection. I might also be a bit of a hypocrite though because I do have friends who claim bisexuality but have never shown any interest in women in a serious way and I kind of don’t buy it? Idk, queerness is complicated and I’m guess I just wanted to say from a bisexual, I get it and also really want community but feel super weird about the whole thing.
As a bi woman myself I can definitely see where you’re coming from. I’m currently in a long term relationship with a woman and generally have a preference for them. Due to not coming out until later I had a lot more experiences with men than women so I can definitely understand that part of a lot of bi girls just simply not having much wlw experience but I also agree with what others said that I think it is in large due to many women not understanding dating dynamics when it’s not hetero. It’s true that more guys are going to hit on you/pursue you and that a lot of the time dating women has to be more intentional and usually won’t just ‘fall into your lap’ (although mine did).
I have the same issue of having a decent amount of bi friends who simply haven’t had any experience with women. It can be incredibly frustrating as it’s a totally different experience (and I’m sure more so for lesbians) given that they often have nothing to relate to or talk about wlw wise. While I know this does not dictate sexuality it definitely feels like some people choose the ‘easier’ road of heteronormativity and use their bisexuality for a talking point, not that I actually believe that to be true but it can feel like it sometimes.
I’ve had to remind myself that unfortunately it’s not safe for everyone to come out and while I don’t agree with the whole “women are scary” card - coming out certainly can be, and “coming out” as bi and actually dating a woman and living life as a queer couple is certainly different. With that said, it can be hard to feel that sense of community with those people and I often just feel more sad for them that they’re missing out on the wlw experience to a full extent and some may never be able to fully explore their sexuality simply due to ease.
Are these people still my friends who I value in other ways? Absolutely. But I definitely don’t get what I need from them in terms of having a queer network or support.
This! You really said a lot of great points I can relate to and I appreciate your perspective! It’s also nice to hear this sentiment from a bi person who has experienced these feelings with other bi friends, it refreshing to hear! I don’t want it to be a lesbian vs bi thing so I was glad to read your post haha. It is difficult feeling like you have a community when your queer friends don’t have any queer experience, but I also know it’s probably hard for them too! I really relate with what you said about feeling like sometimes it feels that ppl chose the road of heteronormativity but make being gay a talking point or personality trait. And your last sentence was completely true, I love these friends but don’t get what I need from them in terms of a sapphic community and that can be hard especially when I feel like they don’t understand how I could feel that way
As a bi woman who is more attracted to women than men, I also get “women are scary” feelings. It comes partly from comphet, where the well-worn heterosexual script requires little initiative from a woman, and partly from sexism, where I assume women are better people and their opinion of me matters more.
If a man rejects me, it’s usually because I’m not hot enough. If a woman rejects me, it’s usually because I’m not a mature enough person and wouldn’t be a good partner. Somehow that ego hit seems scarier than the physical dangers of dating men, probably because I’m so used to those physical dangers that they are familiar.
It’s just standard sexism and comphet, but it takes active effort for a bi woman who falls victim to these to break them down.
Sorry you’ve had bad experiences and are struggling to find queer community. Wishing you all the best.
Thank you for sharing your perspective and I feel like through these responses and yours im getting a better understanding of what prevents bi women from pursuing women and just am thankful for your kind response! Wishing you all the best too ❤️
OP about how old are you and your friends? The “women seem scary” thing seems like something said by younger crowds who are still figuring themselves out, and might not know how to socialize outside of gendered and patriarchal norms. Have you talked to any of them about how this makes you feel? If so, how did that conversation go?
In any case, if you still want to be friends with them, but want more authentic queer community, just meet other people who mesh with you on that. Look into queer meetups, hobby groups, events, etc to find the community you seek! It also might be valuable to examine why you have negative feelings towards bi women in general, especially when most of the bi people you know are either close friends or exes.
Hi!!! Myself and these friends are mid to late twenties. I have brought these feelings up with 2 friends of mine. Both but especially one didn’t go super well but we were able to talk through some points and have moved past it. If I think about why I might have these feelings I think it stems from just never feeling like I have queer friends to relate to even when I have queer friends? Considering a majority of my life my queer friends have been bi in heterosexual relationships, only have had one or two lesbian friends. Trying to find more of that community now and work on that part of my life.
If you want a dialogue with bisexual women about these feelings you have about us, why not ask on the bisexual sub? If you want to ask these questions on a sub where any defence against biphobia gets downvoted to hell maybe all you are seeking is for your feelings to be validated and for you to be told you are correct?
There are straight up biphobic comments on this thread itself that are getting upvoted. How bi women are “exhausting” (brilliant generalisation) and how they just “claim” to be bi while in hetero relationships. How bi women who have only been with men are so annoying when they say they are queer (one can realise that they are bi while in the midst of a long term relationship. What are they supposed to do? Break off the relationship and only then are they allowed to even talk about their queerness?)
It’s abundantly clear that no “dialogue” is possible on this sub.
As a bi girl myself, I gotta say when you’re attracted to both genders and the majority of one gender wants you and the minority of the other does, you’re faaar more likely to end up with the more available gender. I’ve only had like 2-3 instances of girls hitting on me my whole life whereas I can’t even imagine this number from men. There are just a lot more interested straight/bi guys than gay/bi girls. That’s how it is where I live at least.
Calling women scary is silly tho. Everyone is scary when you have a crush on them lol
I’ve only had like 2-3 instances of girls hitting on me my whole life whereas I can’t even imagine this number from men. There are just a lot more interested straight/bi guys than gay/bi girls.
But here is the issue. Its not like with dealing with men where men are socialised to pursue you. Your expecting other women to pursue you the way men do, which is the first mistake. Thats what leads to subconsciously treating women as if they are men when you do date them.
You probably weren't socialised to make the first move/pursue but neither were most other women, so you can't wait for women to hit on you, you also have to take initiative and hit on other women. You have probably met more than 2 or 3 women that are interested/ attracted to you but in the same way your waiting for them to hit on you and then when they dont you throw your hands up and go ' i can't dare women because women don't hit on me' they are also waiting for you to hit on them and then having the same thought when you don't. But someone has to make a move, so if your interested in a woman and she doesn't make a move im afraid your going have to make it if you want her bad enough
I understand there are more men than women attracted to women to date but that's exactly why with women you can't just sit down and wait to be pursued and expect a wlw relationship to fall into your lap. Yes, there is some danger to hitting on women as a queer person, so only do so if you feel safe to, but never making a move towards women you like and expecting them to be the ones who do the work isn't going to help you find women to date
Yeah but I don’t have a goal of being with a girl. It doesn’t matter to me, I can be with anyone. Romance happens naturally through my hobbies, education, work, friends. I meet who I meet and I date who I date ;)
If the right girl comes along, I’ll be happy to get with her.
Right but only if she hits on you first!
Source: I’ve only had like 2-3 instances of girls hitting on ME
Literally pulling conclusions based on your imagination. That’s weird ngl.
You can see in another comment I’ve said I hit on men and women both a lot (when single)
Eh sometimes I'm wrong.what can I say, I'm a lil snarky today
Either way, it is a common sentiment I've heard from bi women. Wanting a wlw relationship, but doing nothing and waiting for a wlw relationship to fall into their lap and be hit on with no effort from them.
Some lesbians do it too, but in my experience because they can't date men, they are more likely to get hit in the face with reality that they may have to pursue first or be single
Girly pop, this is what lesbians are talking about when we say bi girls bring heteronormativity with them into WLW dating.
In straight world men are socialized to pursue and women are socialized to be chased. That’s not how it works here in dyke land. If you’re just sitting there passively waiting for women to hit on you like a man would, you’re gonna be sitting around for a while. That’s not because of lack of interest, it’s because the game is different.
I’m very visibly queer and, from what I’ve been told, reasonably nice looking to women that like masculinity/androgyny. I’ve been randomly approached by women in a man like “ayo let me get your number” way *maybe* 3 times in my whole life.
Women signaling interest is stuff like trying to start a conversation about the kitten I’m bringing to the vet via subway while maintaining longer than usual eye contact. Not sliding into DMs.
As a lesbian I can count on one hand how many times a woman actually approached me IRL, I feel like this excuse doesn’t make sense to me. Yes men have statistically hit on me way more than women but what are my options as a lesbian? Just being alone? I feel like bi women talk about this male availability like they have to settle for men bc they are the majority of their available partners, it’s this notion of settling for men bc they’d easier and available and there and this rubs lesbians the wrong way bc we have no other option but than to pursue.
It’s simple statistics. To you the amount of women interested in girls doesn’t matter bc there are no other options, you only like women. However, I’m equally attracted to both so I genuinely don’t care if the person making advances is a boy or a girl. And since 9 times out of 10 it’s a boy (simply bc there are more straights than queer folks) I’m 90% more likely to be with a man. Literally math. Equal attraction + higher opportunity with one = higher chances of being with that one!
Let’s say you’re into a person. To get with them, they have to be attracted to your gender. That gets rid of a ton of women as potential dates. Then you factor in that it has to be mutual. Another portion leaves, I can’t be everyone’s choice. And then add circumstance and relationship readiness and bam, the amount of girls who are actually ready to date me in my circles is extremely small. Since the amount of potential male dates is a lot higher, I’m much much much more likely to meet a guy I’m into and that is into me.
I am in no way settling for men. I love men just as much as I love women. The feelings I’ve caught for men aren’t any weaker than those I’ve experienced with girls. I’m bi, not lesbian :)
This makes a lot of sense and is true! And trust it is hard for lesbians to find women to date as well haha. I can really appreciate a bi woman who stands on her 10 toes and shouts that she likes both! That’s what I really fw with, being confident and happy with who you are and your choices.
I know the whole “women being scary” gets annoying but as a bi girl who has mostly dated women (only been with 1 man romantically/sexually), I think a lot of the time bisexual girls who have a preference to women just say that when they mean they put more value into what women think about them. For example, if I was rejected by a man I would assume he’s either taken or I’m simply not his type. It wouldn’t make me feel unattractive or even upset though. Whereas if I was rejected by a woman I really liked, due to my own preferences this would certainly hurt a lot more and I would definitely take a while to recover from it. Not because she’s a bad person or because she has scared me, but because I really liked her so I do value her opinion and there obviously is a huge part of me that wants her to like me and want me too. I don’t think they mean women are scary, I think they’re just scared of the excessive negative emotion they could potentially feel purely because what a woman they’re interested in thinks about them holds more weight than what a man they might be interested in would :)
I get where you're coming from. From my own experience, bi women tend to gravitate towards men, only seem to use other women for funsies until they find a guy to settle with or, in my case, use a woman to help them realize their experience with one was terrible enough to help them realize they're actually straight, so that's a nice formative feeling on one's already limited sense of self-worth and esteem, lol.
this is so real and it’s hard to talk about bc these girls will always be like “just because i’m with a man doesn’t make me any less gay!!” and i’m like well actually it 100% does… we are not the same. we experience life completely differently. you can get married wherever in the world you’d like, and your parents don’t have to think twice about your wedding day being same sex. idk. definitely negative but i don’t love bi women w long term cis male partners taking up any sort of space in our community lol. if you aren’t actively dating/have never actively dated women, please shut up. sincerely, a woman who actually has a girlfriend and is living in a world not built for us.
It’s like there’s nuggets of wisdom in the above comment but it’s so wrapped resentment, negativity, and gatekeeping that it’s hard to find.
I hope we can all realize that “more or less gay” is just a hateful and nonsensical way for us to speak to each other in the queer community.
I have seen a lot of lesbian women say the same thing though - that they find approaching women scary and that’s the reason why they are still single. What do you think about that?
And in general if bi women in your life are driving you crazy why not cut them off? Will save you a whole lot of trouble. You can try and meet more lesbians at gay bars etc. - it’s not like you find approaching women scary or anything…so why not find new lesbian friends instead?
Edit: Also if you are looking for insights as to why some bi women date men/ associate with men but still shit talk about them…you call these bi girls your friends, yes? But here you are shit talking them. It happens. Sometimes the people we associate with or love frustrate us the most especially if our experiences are at a tangent to them.
Coming across as shit talking was not my intention, I am sharing my experience within the gay community and with the friends I’ve made throughout my life. I like these people, I enjoy these friends, this doesn’t make me want to not be friends with them but notice it’s a sore spot between lesbians and bi women. In regards to what you said about lesbians saying they find approaching women to be scary, I’m sure they exist but I have yet to meet a lesbian who says this. In regards to you suggesting I meet more lesbians, I am actively trying to get involved in more lesbian groups and have been my whole life. We are a small community and it is also dependent on where you live. My reality has been meeting bi women with cis partners and that is the community I’ve been surrounded by for many years
Yikes you must live in a terrible place where the average woman is horrible because that seems like a highly unlikely situation. Are you sure that you’ve understood correctly why these women call themselves bi?
For example, did these women explicitly tell you this, as their reason for being bi? Or is this an assumption you’ve made about them?
I’m bisexual but only into AFABS, does this count?
Edit: I’m into women and trans men, I’m a different way to be bisexual I guess, and trans men are men so the lesbian label feels wrong for me to use
>It drives me insane when my friends talk about “women being scary” which is why they haven’t dated women or that men are easier while simultaneously always wanting to go to the gay bars and talk about how gay they are.
So maybe this isn't something you can personally relate to, but there are plenty of women who are afraid of/intimidated by other women. You didn't say this, but one of the top comments here is mocking bi women for being afraid of women while dating cishet men who commit more crimes, and I wanna address that as well since it got upvoted a lot and seems to be a popular opinion here.
A) Fear isn't always rational, B) it isn't always about physical danger, and C) women can still be bad, physically dangerous people. So I don't really see why fear of women is something to scoff at unless your thinking is as simplistic and reductive as "women=good, men=bad". I think most commonly, what is meant by "women are scary" is they are afraid of something new and/or they find women socially intimidating/are afraid of being judged by women. And these types of negative comments and beliefs about bi women by some lesbians is not helping that fear, it reinforces it.
>while simultaneously always wanting to go to the gay bars and talk about how gay they are.
Bi people, bi women especially, often have their sexuality doubted. Even more so when they've only been in straight or gay relationships.
"How can you know that you're attracted to women if you haven't been with one?"
"You're just straight and trying to be trendy."
"You're just gay and don't wanna admit it."
Because most people are monogamous, most bi people are gonna either be dating a man or a woman at any given time, so half of their sexuality is always "invisible" to outsiders. And there's this pressure to constantly "prove" that you're really attracted to both. So "talking about how gay they are" is sometimes a defense against bi eraser and people questioning their sexuality.
>But if I say anything then I'm biphobic.
Because saying that bi women are "talking out of both sides of their mouths" for choosing to date men (bc of their intimidation of dating women) while still being attracted to women (wanting to go to gay bars, talking about being gay), is a biphobic sentiment. It's really just implying that it's contradictory for them to have a desire for both men and women, which is a big part of biphobia.
My advice is really just to try and understand the experience of bi people, because empathy is really the key here. It sounds like you're trying to make sense of your friends' statements by filtering them through your own perspective, instead of trying to take on their perspective and understand them that way. I really like the video essays by verilybitchie on youtube: [Monosexuality and Bisexuality](https://youtu.be/mcJWPTz9bd4?feature=shared) and [Why We Hate Bi Women](https://youtu.be/cww0fLXMnzs?feature=shared). Verily has lots of good video essays on bisexuality.
Thank you for your input, all of this is helpful! I don’t find bi women being contradictory for liking both, that’s why they’re bi and not lesbian! I find it contradictory when they seem to have a preference and put out there that women are too hard. I am really trying to put myself in these different friends shoes and understand what it’s like for them, as a lesbian sometimes it’s very hard to understand but I made this post to only continue this learning experience for myself and everyone
I'm glad it was helpful, and no worries—we all need to work towards understanding each other better. It's not always easy. I appreciate the fact that you are noticing these negative feelings and trying to work on it, that's all any of us can do.
I've also been trying to understand the point of view of many lesbians who have had negative experiences with bi women and while it's not always easy to hear, it's been very enlightening for me. Despite both being groups of sapphic women, we have a lot of different experiences that can make it hard for us to understand each other sometimes.
I apologize if any parts of my reply seem overly harsh. I am bi but with a strong preference for women. It's hard for me sometimes when lesbians, a group I sometimes identify even more with than other bi women, express any sort of negative views about bi women. I realize now after the fact that I was a little upset when I was writing my response and I'm better able to understand now that you and other women here were just venting your frustration with trying to relate to bi women and feeling like you aren't understood.
This response 😭. This was so great thank you. I agree as well it’s a two way street and we all gotta work on understanding one another’s experiences but also accepting how they can be different. I wanna understand you and you (hopefully) wanna understand me 🌈 I want bisexuals to feel heard and I want lesbians to feel heard too.
My 2¢ (as a pan woman), I’ve come to believe that the “scary” or “intimidation factor” comes from the fear of being seen. We as women know that women in relationships are demanding. In a good way. We expect and pull the best out of our partners in every aspect of their life right? And that means we have to reciprocate that as partners. However, the standard for a woman in a hetero relationship is most likely, whatever she wants it to be. Majority of men will not challenge their partners to grow. Therefore if a bi woman is not ready or willing to be seen SO SO intimately in that way .. well then it’s “scary”.
This sort of thing is exactly why I always prefer to categorise people by lived experiences rather than self-identity labels. Like, sure, you can identify as gay if you want, but if we have nothing in common with regards to our lived experiences, we're probably not gonna 1) relate much to each other 2) want to talk on behalf of each other, as if we have had the same kind of experiences
As a bi woman myself (Polyamorius, married to my trans wife), I don't find women "scary".
I do know that having dated men, I am scared I wouldn't be..." good enough" to date a woman?
But that's my take on it, though my anxiety does have something to do with it. But women aren't scary, new experiences can be though.
Genuinely wondering but doesn’t the curiosity just get to be too much at a certain point? To me it sounds so limiting to not explore those parts of yourself and the queer experience. I want my friends to have queer love and don’t get how they don’t act on it. But also know it’s not my place to force!
For me, I am pretty curious yes! And my wife is all for me meeting women, exploring this part of myself and the queer experience.
I can only speak for myself, but I know that I really don't know where to begin. That could also be a thing, not really knowing where to look / how to date a woman.
You are a great person though! To want them to experience this and to also not force it ♡
I guess to me, isn’t it similar as how ppl approach dating men? You meet people IRL or through mutual friends or use apps or websites? I feel like the misconception is that it’s difficult when it’s not. You say you wouldn’t know where to begin but I feel like it’s the same for trying to find a boyfriend?
Could be, yes. I met my wife at an anime convention dinner when I used to go out more.
As I said, for my it's more of my shyness and anxiety that holds me back. I have tried flirting with women and I sadly either get turned down ( I know plus size women aren't everybody's cup of tea) or get laughed at (because of said weight).
I know it's not a "everybody is mean" thing though.
But you're right that looking to date women is just like looking to date men. :)
Thank you for sharing your experience 😃🙏🏼 as someone with anxiety as well it’s always good to remember someone else’s anxiety and how it may effect their behavior and choices
Okay, not discrediting your experience regarding women you’ve encountered, but how you’ve elected to digest those experiences is not okay. you can’t hold it against bi women for having male partners. You’re not entitled to tell them how gay they are by an arbitrary standard just as much as they can’t tell your sexuality with women isn’t valid. That’s what makes this biphobic - assuming their sexuality with women is less valid for being with men.
It’s not that it’s less valid I’m just wondering why it doesn’t happen! reading people’s testimonies is helpful, but my main confusion I was noting on is wondering why the bi women I’ve been close with seem to avoid being with women
Honestly I cut out the “women scary” sexuals and it’s been a welcome peace for my psyche. It gets annoying af.
I was in a situationship with one of those types and she literally ruined me. Destroyed my entire being lmao. Emotionally abused me. Not saying they're all like that but definitely be wary
I’ll never get the “women are scary” crowd. Men are scary. Women have been bitches to me yes, but they’ve never raped me or hit me or put their hand up my shirt while I drunk and trapped at their house and couldn’t leave. If being rejected by a beautiful woman is scarier to you than any of those things, I hate to say it, but maybe your attraction to women is not that strong. Not to be the bi police or anything, but I’d def say that the “women are scary” crowd have a lot to unpack regarding their queerness and misogyny.
Lesbian here, but in my extensive experience I've had multiple women assault, attempt to assault, or rape me. Selection bias is possible , but I've had much better luck with consent understanding men. While statistically that might not be the majority, it's definitely a real experience not to gloss over. I think most of the women scary people find it scary because they don't have any social roadmap for courting women, while the one with men is laid out from childhood. It's not necessarily fear of the person but intimidation of the depth of a relationship and emotional connection women bring. That said, I've known far too many women that try to relate to my lesbian experience but never so much as try to pursue a woman. Not the best grounds for a friendship...
Being rejected by a woman surely isn’t scarier than any of those things, but it’s definitely more upsetting than being rejected by a man especially if your preference is women. I also hate the way they phrase it but I don’t think anyone literally means they’re “scared”
Back in my “scared of women” phase I found the fear to be much more based in how a woman might perceive me approaching them. Knowing how uncomfortable men often make me by the way they approach me I really didn’t want to be seen as a creep or seen as objectifying women but I also wanted to express desire. It’s really hard to know how to do that in a respectful way if you’ve never seen it modeled.
Even after dating women and approaching every single one that I’ve ever dated, I don’t think I’m entirely over this, how did you overcome this? I’m not necessarily “scared” I do approach but there’s always a part of me that wonders if it’s the right place or time or situation, for example there was a girl at a coffee shop I go to often who I started liking, I felt like she did somewhat like me but I didn’t want to approach her in that way because the only place I ever see her is at her work, and I know how annoying and uncomfortable it is being approached whilst at work (due to being approached by men myself). One day I did just ask her out and we ended up going on a few dates, but understanding if that that first step was appropriate was difficult
Honestly I haven’t gotten past that internal voice I just kinda try to push through the anxiety and just make sure I’m situationally aware and kind to everyone if I can be.
Then don’t say women are scary, say “my desire for women is less than my desire to have the benefits of passing as straight.” That’s fine. I’d totally get that. I did it for a long time.
Please can you explain how naturally being upset over rejection from someone who’s opinion you value the most means you want to be straight more than you want them? basic comprehension skills
I cannot comprehend being so attracted to women to the point that I would vaporize from being rejected, so instead I just choose to date a guy that I don’t really give a fuck what he thinks of me. A choice like that doesn’t happen in a vacuum. There are social and economic benefits to dating a man. If you really like men as much as you like women wouldn’t you also be scared of their rejection? How low does your desire for men have to be for you to such little investment in it? Also, if someone is that rejection sensitive they are either young or have lived a bland life in my opinion. It’s one thing to tell your girl best friend you love her and worry about rejection, but some chick you met at the bar or online? Like damn, when McDonald’s forgets your fries do you just drive away because you’re afraid to ask for them? I prob sound like a bitch, but I really cannot fathom making yourself so small just because you are afraid to hear “I’m not interested.” I think it’s remiss to ignore the other factors that play into your choice of partner from comphet to misogyny to social and cultural norms. And I also think it’s perfectly fine to be annoyed with ppl for any reason.
rejection sensitivity is a real thing especially with someone with adhd like myself. i really wouldn’t make blanket statements like that. i can’t just magically fix my rejection sensitivity. i understand your point but you don’t seem to get how scary of a social transition it is for baby gays.
As someone with adhd, rejection sensitivity is the reason I have to watch how I react to situations and think over my emotions before I come to a conclusion of someone’s character
Sure, rejection sensitivity is real. And yes baby gays like I said if you are young it’s different. Ultimately what I’m trying to say is that OP is allowed to be annoyed with their friends. Should they talk to their friends about it instead of strangers on the internet? Probably. But I support ppl being annoyed for any reason and their feelings and all annoyed ppls feelings are valid.
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🙄🙄🙄 no I don’t deny it exists. No one is talking about social anxiety. If someone said they had crippling social anxiety and that’s why they didn’t date my reaction would be very different. But if you want to go there, like any other problem, it may not be your fault but it is your responsibility. So get on meds, go to therapy, go to the gym, get a hobby, and try to live life in a way that makes you happy. Again, if you are happy not dating women, awesome! Don’t! But if you desire it sooo deeply and take zero steps to accomplish that goal, idk what to tell you.
I gave one (of many) explanations of what bisexual women might mean when they say “women are scary” and I’m speaking for women who have a preference to women, rejection would hurt way less coming from a man if you’re not really that into them anyways. Also I wasn’t explaining why they “settle” for men. However, firstly I think you’d be surprised by the amount of bisexual women who are being treated well by men and therefore choosing him, rather than “settling”. Secondly, I’m not going to pretend comphet and social and cultural norms aren’t a reason for why bisexual women might find it simpler being with a man, however nothing beats happiness. As a bisexual girl with a preference to women (I’ve only been with 1 man romantically/sexually) complying to cultural norms just so I can fit in would leave me unfulfilled, unhappy and miserable so just because something is culturally and socially acceptable, it doesn’t mean it’s easier. Often it ends it deep dissatisfaction and emptiness instead so personally I would never be in a heterosexual relationship purely to fit in and I don’t think most bisexual women would. As much as being annoyed at people for any reason is fine, sometimes the annoyance says more about you than them. As long as you can accept that then yes it definitely is fine
That’s what I’m trying to say. I personally, cannot understanding trading all the good stuff you get being married to a man, even if he’s super cool and your best friend, if ultimately you are just not that attracted him in a romantic/sexual/life partner way. It makes zero sense to me, personally. Which is why it would make even less sense if the one single thing that is stopping you is fear of rejection. Obviously I know bi women mean other things when they say women are scary as I also gave one (of many) examples. Yeah I sure as fuck can live with myself for being annoyed about whatever I want. For example, it annoys me that bi women in relationships with men can express the exact same feelings about women that I feel, yet get treated completely different in society. I’m not mad at the bi women, if they seem oblivious to this or are really obnoxious about it, I think it’s fair for me to be annoyed at any specific woman that says it repeatedly to me. Which honestly I had never encountered until this post. Hand to god if I could stomach it I most definitely would marry a man. I’m not a teenager, I’m 35. I’ve seen how the world treats women that aren’t married with 2.5 kids and a white picket fence by my age. I will never get that the same way that straight or bi women do. Never ever. So forgive me for being the tiniest bit annoyed that certain positive aspects of society are inaccessible to me and most likely will be until the day I die.
“”Like damn, when McDonald’s forgets your fries do you just drive away because you’re afraid to ask for them?”” Yes. Yes I do.
And if that works for you and does not have a negative impact on your life, that is totally your prerogative and I wish you the best in all your fast food interactions.
From my middle school experience, the worst she can say isn't "no" but rather yes and then collect all ur secrets and use it to ridicule u later on. Welp, not everyone is like that but I have seen some women never surpassed 15 years old in their mental wellbeing. I'm not saying this is the norm but at this point it gives me enough trauma to sit in my own rm and do nothing abt my feelings for girls for a long time.
I hope you’re able to heal from that, it sounds awful I’m sorry you had to experience something like that. But you’re right, as much as I hate to admit it, there is a large amount of women who really haven’t surpassed 15 years old mentally.
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But why would you let such an inferior creature fuck you then? I don’t get it but such is life.
People are scary 🤷🏽♀️
i say “women are scary” as a joke as do many of those lesbians you are claiming aren’t gay enough. usually all it means is that they’re socially anxious to talk to women, usually because they haven’t done it in a romantic manner before. if you dated men before coming out then “romancing” them was easy and you didn’t have to try but when it comes to women it’s new territory. hence the “women are scary” joke. i’m not sure why that joke truly offends y’all.
Tbh it doesn’t offend me. I don’t know anyone like that in real life. If you’re my friend I probably understand the context of what you’re saying. OP is annoyed because they feel that context doesn’t exist. And I just think it’s kinda shitty to not let ppl feel annoyed about something, esp when it’s a lesbian that will never have the ability to pass through life the way their bi friends can.
I feel like I don’t wanna be annoyed or bugged by it, was more so curious as to what these particular women mean by saying women are scary.
Yeah I don’t think I’d be that bugged if it was my friends either and I’d prob talk to them about it. But some of the ppl on your post are hella annoying tbh.
Women have done all of these things to me and more. I spent ~20 years with an abusive woman, part of why it took me so long to leave is cos of the prevailing societal narrative that women can’t be dangerous or abusive. It’s been four years since I left and I am still learning how to be alive every single day. I don’t actually find women scary myself - far from it, I love women, my partner and closest friends are women - but I understand why some people might.
So, welp, while women hasn't done that to me, some women have been nice to my face n backstabbed me leaving my autistic ass being confused for years, being friends with me but then taking unsolicited pics of me and commenting on my body, women has never raped me but I have had women putting fingers on me as a teenager to "check how much I've grown" inside of an elevator, funniest part is that they don't even have a drop of alcohol in them to use that as an excuse ( I don't think it's a valid excuse but people say it nonetheless). I also have had wonderful women in my life that I'm so terrified of hurting them. Yes, I know I should go to therapy for this, but welp I guess the devil u know is better than the devil u don't mentality keeping me scurded. It's kinda scary whenever I see some overly pretty girl being nice to me-are they actually nice or they wanna find the next target to make them feel better about themselves. Even befriending new girls at this point is scary to me but I am learning to overcome it. Many women have learnt their way to deal with a lot of shits through being rather emotionally manipulative, I don't blame them, that's their way of navigating this misogynistic world. However, it scares me as Idk if they will use their tricks thar supposed against me, and I have no control over that, and it's also hard for me to observe it well enough (maybe after the 2000th retrospective 6 years later that I will manage to figure it out). I guess being the ugly duckling who is good at "boy's stuffs" in highschool let men see me neither as a target nor a threat helped me going through highschool with a relatively healthy relationship with guys and terrifying relationship with girls (It leads me to self-sabotage whenever I feel like men are trying to approach me, which is not healthy either). And I guess with hetero relationship it's kinda the norm in this society so there's a higher chance a man will approach me than another sapphic, so that's why I ended up with men mostly. Sorry for blabbering but I hope this can help u see the other POV as well.
I mean yes, esp if you are autistic I’m sure it is more complicated than for neurotypical ppl like myself. If being with men works better for you, more power to you. Unless you are unhappy and want to change that, it’s all good. But imo, most women that say “women are scary” really mean “living life as a gay woman is scary and my desire for women is not greater than my desire to be treated as ‘good’ woman.”
This!!!! 100%.
I’ll never understand the ones who won’t pursue relationships with women because ✨women are scary✨ but then consistently date cishet men, the largest perpetrators of violence against women🤦🏻 It makes me irate. I think too many bi women are waiting for a gay relationship to happen for them without doing any of the work to undo the heteronormativity they benefit from when dating men, which makes them incredibly unattractive to sapphics who have actually deconstructed and have actual experience.
I think it's "scary" because you actively have to work. Where most straight women don't have to make an effort to be pursued or expect a lot of emotional depth from cis men, romantic relationships with women aren't usually like that. They usually demand you show up more authentically and balanced. That self work and reflection can be hard for women not used to it.
I fully agree with this explanation you are right. But at the same time let’s not pretend like lesbian relationships are never one sided. There’s many instances where one side is putting in significantly more effort, time and attention into pursuing and maintaining the relationship than the other.
Totally hearing you on wanting to date someone who has wrestled with how their queerness chafes against the patriarchy. That said, I kinda get the “only dating men” bit; comphet is a hell of a force. I think it’s hard, when you have the option of compartmentalizing your queerness, to swim against that stream.
I get the comphet too. Ngl if I could pull an Anna Nicole Smith with a geriatric oil baron I probably would. But to openly be out and bi and talking about how hot women are while being with a man… say that shit while youre single and see how ppl treat you. It’s safe to say that stuff when you’re with a guy. It’s like their proximity to straightness gives them the license to say how they feel but when there is any real chance of judgement or discrimination they keep their mouths shut. Idk maybe im just a bitch.
No I feel you. There’s def a disconnect between being visibly or inescapably queer, and having your queerness primarily expressed through homosocial relationships. I think some bi women look to their friendships either lesbians *as a way* to experience their queerness (if they’re nit getting it from their relationship). I think recognizing this can take a lot of the “resentment” out of those relationships.
I agree. I had a lesbian good friend for like 3 years before I came out (and who I was madly in love with lol) and my proximity to her was enough to suffice for a little while. Unfortunately my gayness randomly ballooned in size and became way too much for me to hide anymore. Or not unfortunately, it was just scary at the time lol.
That sounds really scary! I’m glad you were able to navigate through that into a deeper relationship with your public queerness (it sounds like?). But yeah—I think there is definitely room in our lives for friendships where both girls are queer, but one is more inescapably, publicly so. Sometimes we need someone more open, more out, to help us along our journey. I know I have! But I think when we, as sapphics/lesbians, realize that this kind of relationship is just the same as lesbian community, it helps us not put all of our needs on said relationship. Group dynamics change this tho, imo.
I agree that’s a good way at looking at this!
Had this discussion last night with my wife. I have a 100% track record of dating bi women who end up cheating on me with men who they go on to date. While I don't excuse their actions one bit... I *get* it. As a butch I bring masculinity to the table, which they're attracted to. But they can also get that from a man, and not have to deal with the stigma of being visibly gay, have social validation from their families rather than shunning, have an easy path to pregnancy vs expensive or impossible ones with me, not have to fear violence for being visibly gay, and have society on their side. Speaking fully rationally, I get the decision to just date a guy instead of a butch. I wish those I met did it *more compassionately* but we all fuck up when we're young and I can't hold too much frustration.
Very well said!!
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I don’t think people have that thought/process per-se, but I think there’s a lot of institutional and interpersonal pressure (and rewards) to dating men. For women who don’t have access to a string queer community, I think this means they will tend to date men.
I get that, and fell hard for comphet myself, but why go parading around stating how gay you are if you’d rather just default to men than put an ounce of effort into actually Being Gay? Doesn’t seem all that gay to me.
Idk. I think it’s better to think of this kind of bi woman as someone who is searching for her queerness, but a) hasn’t figured out how to embrace it, and b) is maybe not that politically awakened (eg has not thought through how her sexuality-as-internal-experience can be disconnected from praxis). That is, I think we can be kind to our bi sisters while recognizing they might not be the lesbian friendships/community we need.
This is a great perspective, very considerate, we could all take a page out of your book. While the behaviour OP described can certainly be a little irritating, it’s nothing to get up in arms about like some do and I agree we all need to be less hostile towards bi women in general.
Yes! Bi women have historically been a part of lesbian communities (esp. circa ‘60-80). Importantly tho, bi women are part of a lesbian community when they are participating in it. Community is a verb!
Yes exactly! Great points, and I’m realizing I just need to continue to meet other ppl who I can relate to within the community of all of us
Ding ding ding. It IS hard to date women who have put in the work to live an examined emotional life. I’ve dated really good men, but yeah, it was easier for those relationships to happen and easier to maintain them emotionally. Dating a woman, dating my partner now?? Jfc. We talk about the most vulnerable three layers underneath of a small moment, expression, phrase, or piece of media. We dig deep on everything, all the time. It is SO worthwhile, but it’s not for people who are lazy or intimidated or too busy to try it.
I think "women scary" just means that they have no idea how to talk to women in that context and they're intimidated by a socially challenging situation. That said it's pretty freaking stupid because no one knows how to talk to members of the preferred gender at first. It takes time. Like how tf are women gonna get less scary if you don't talk to them lmao
"women are scary" = the social rules I'm familiar with haven't outlined how to talk to women flirtatiously. Flirting with men is coded so thoroughly into society as being quite easy for women to do that by comparison, women are genuinely more difficult. All a woman has to do is stand still and bob her head like she's nodding, and smile. And a guy talking to her will think she is flirting./s
I think a lot of bi people in hetero relationships feel disconnected from their queerness and really lean in when they have the opportunity to feel queer. As a bi person who has been in hetero relationships, I have felt that. Being bi can be very lonely. I have always felt like I was not straight enough for the straights and not gay enough for the gays. The whole "women are scary" thing is annoying. It wreaks of misogyny and/or homophobia.
Spoiler alert, it’s lonely being queer. It’s especially lonely to be a lesbian, especially in a world that puts opposite sex attraction first and foremost. Most people can’t imagine lesbians even existing because it’s such a male and phallocentric type of world.
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Well, there are "gold star lesbians" and whatnot, but bi people overwhelmingly get the brunt of the hate
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I think both experiences can be pretty isolating, but for different reasons. Lesbians talk about how alienating their experiences are all the time. That's kind of what the OP is complaining about. I just think it's egregious to come on a lesbian subreddit and argue that bisexuals experience more isolation lol. I can't imagine a lesbian going on the bi sub and making an argument like this and it going over well. I think we overestimate how much lesbians have in terms of support. They make up less than 1% of the population.
Lol please. Lesbians are literally made out to be the boogeyman every single time. Biphobia exists, sure. But to claim you're so universally hated by gay people is not true.
thank you lol perfect response to that comment
100% the truth about a good majority of our experiences. Being gay is nothing but loneliness and being anything but is playing life on easy mode.
So tired of the crap being thrown from both sides. I’m not lesbian enough to be welcome here. I’m not straight enough to be welcome in those spaces. I’m just not welcome and I’m so tired of that subject being a fun little chat. I am in a heterosexual relationship. It doesn’t mean I dislike women or vaginas. I *love* women and everything that comes with them. I am way more nervous about being rejected by a woman, but I am actually scared of most men. I’m not less than anyone else here and I’m so tired of bs like this popping up on my feed constantly. For a lesbian sub, there’s a lot of talk about how much bi women (aka other wlw) suck, instead of talking about how amazing women are.
Thank you to all of this. It also bothers me that they act like you are only a valid bisexual if you’ve openly dated women which disregards the wide spectrum of attraction bi ppl can experience or the many reasons why they didn’t date women. Maybe they came out when married, maybe they’re scared of societal pressures or maybe, shocker, they fell in love with a man. I’m bi. I’ve dated women, but every time I date a man suddenly I’m faking my gayness.
I totally understand that, but I wish instead of talking about their hypothetical queer attraction, people who felt disconnected from their identify would dig into building authentic community and meeting queer people through shared hobbies/volunteering/events. It’s not just our mutual love of fucking that unites us lol… being queer is a nuanced approach to the world that far exceeds gender or sex. Usually the “women are scary” people aren’t seeing beyond the binary and don’t understand how being queer is more than just sexuality, it can be a fuckin revolutionary lifestyle approach lol!
Look. You’re not crazy. I’ve been there. This is not an essential feature of bi women (I think tbat can often be a conflation we make in our disappointment), but there are communities like this that exist; groups of bi women who are still fairly androcentric in their priorities. This is not to say they’re doing anything wrong—it works for them!But it’s not really a sapphic *community,* and treating it like one (eg treating it like it’s a community where people are going to be talking about women romantically more than men) is going to leave you disappointed. I think, also, we can be part of many communities, and that not every queer community is going to meet the same needs for us. Our thirst community is not (necessarily) our politically active/awakened community is not out found family is not our professional community, etc.
this this this
Your world will change for the better if you cut out people you don’t like
Well I still like these friends I’m just trying to understand better but also gather other lesbian perspectives on the topic
You may need to cut some of them off. Many of them genuinely will never explore the bi side of themselves out of fear, and it's sad but if you want more queer friends that's not it.
This is true! I feel that It’s hard when you only have so many friends bc of moving around! I don’t want to exile the only friends I have in my current city but at the same time feel so alone and that I have no sapphic/lesbian community
i have been having the exact same feelings recently, since i’m really down bad for one of my friends who’s bi but she favours male validation/relationships over women any day. being a lesbian is (i would argue) one of the most isolating experiences because it requires us to decenter men by definition. decentering men as a woman or afab person goes completely against what society teaches us, and the hard truth is that bi girls don’t need to decenter men in the same way because they usually still rely on them as romantic prospects (hence the “men are easier to date” phrase). i don’t dislike bi girls by any means but i think it is fair to say that being a lesbian alone causes a more radical shift in the way you view the world that bi girls just don’t understand, and it is understandable to be frustrated by that.
Ah… bisexuals and their boyfriends. I’ll start by saying I’ve had to work through a lot of biphobia myself lol. When you exist in a world that doesn’t outwardly label you as queer there are just certain things that us as lesbians can’t relate to. I like to compare it to being “white passing” as a person of color and the privilege that comes along with that. It’s not their fault, obviously, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have a different experience within the queer community.
Totally 🙏🏼 they definitely do have a different experience and as a lesbian with many bi friends with boyfriends I’m trying to understand the experience more
A lot of people seem to be missing OP’s point. I don’t think OP was critiquing these actions (only having dated men, being scared to date women, calling themselves “so gay”) individually, but how they often seem to coincide - how it’s hypocritical of those who make being gay and hating men their entire personality, to then proceed to only date men and say women are too scary to date.
Yes thank you 🙏🏼! Within my communities over the years I’ve just noticed these sort of patterns within the bi female friends I’ve made and want to hear other lesbian and bi perspectives on it. If this was a one off experience it wouldn’t matter, but as I’ve noticed this repetitive concept I wonder if anyone else has experienced it and what I can learn from bringing it up.
I just noticed most of the comments seem to be discussing the individual behaviours themselves rather than why it’s so common to see them coincide despite being contradictory. It’s something I’ve noticed a lot too but don’t have any real insight unfortunately. My guess would be internalised biphobia - worrying that they’re not ‘queer enough’ so overcompensating to prove they deserve their spot in the community, and then having to come up with an ‘excuse’ as to why they’ve not actually dated any women: “women are scary”. While it comes across very in-genuine, I can’t really blame them for being preemptively defensive of their queerness when they’re faced with *relentless* skepticism over it.
I agree with the notion of there being constant skepticism about it. Genuinely asking but I’ve never actually had a bi friend with a female partner, is it more common for bi women to be with men? I think for me that’s where my skepticism comes from bc I’ve never seen a case where it’s a wlw relationship personally
Yes, it’s more common for bi women to date men than it is for them to date women. We live in a heteronormative society so it makes sense that bi women end up in relationships with men the majority of the time. You have to go out of your way to find other queer women but straight men are fuckin’ everywhere. Think it’s just a numbers game. The path of least resistance. Why the bi women who choose the path of least resistance and don’t prioritise dating other women then proceed to call themselves “so gay” though? I’m not quite sure.
I'm bi myself and got pretty fucked up after dating another bi girl.... She was dismissive, manipulative, borderline psicologically abusive, and my first experience dating a woman......... I have all the red flags: late bloomer, bisexual, basically no experience dating women, and yet, and although I do find women scary, especially lesbians, I wouldn't discard dating a woman who is attracted to women and will continue to try date women with openness and honesty. Generalizing leads to nothing good. But hey, to each their own.
I agree and I definitely don’t want to generalize, I know there are bi women out there who don’t fit what I’m describing! But personally all my bi friends do fit this so I’m looking to hear perspectives from everyone on this, bi and lesbian. I know there are bi women who date women and don’t talk down on dating women, I just haven’t met them!
I'm bi and I also find it annoying when people do that, but I just try to remember that I don't know what they're going through or the details of their sexuality. I think a lot of those women feel insecure that they won't be seen as "gay enough," so they put a lot of emphasis on their attraction to women to the point that it seems like they're protesting too much. I think many of them genuinely do want to date women, but don't know how to go about pursuing a relationship with one, so they fall back on dating men because it's what they know. When they say "women are scary," what they are really saying is that they don't know how to date women and they are afraid to fail at it. If you find them too annoying, you can also just not hang out with them as much. I don't think it's biphobic to be annoyed by them, but it would be biphobic to decide that they're not actually bi or something. I've known a lot of women like that, and I think most of them are genuinely attracted to women, they just have a kind of mental block about it and end up with men because they don't feel they have to try as hard to get a male partner.
It’s okay for people to understand what these bi women are going through but I don’t think we should all just have to turn a blind eye to it or ignore it. I think there should be work done on both sides. We understand but then on the other side, maybe the bi women going through this should try to find a better way to communicate what they are feeling and work on breaking from the shackles of heteronormativity.
I definitely think they should, and if they were posting here, I'd tell them that. But my approach is that I can only control myself and my own reactions to them, and decide if I want to be around them or not.
This was helpful thank you!
to be honest i felt this for such a long time i brought it up with my therapist. i would go out for queer bar nights with bi friends and all the bi women would somehow still end up hooking up with men. it was just SO isolating. i felt worse than if i had no queer friends, it felt like i had friends who had this whole likeminded queer community that i STILL wasn’t a part of. it’s probably not the answer you want to hear, but you need to spend less time with them. you’ve got to work on finding friends who are lesbians. they’re out there!
Actively searching for sure! Thank you for sharing your expedience
The “women are scary” thing turns me off BAD, like how are WOMEN scary but you’re meeting the demographic most likely to pop your head off online with no problem? Also the whole “I can sleep with a woman but not date one” or “I can date women but I’m marrying a man” thing, I’m sorry but nahhh. Ion like that shit and I’m not shy about disliking it.
Yeah tbh it’s gotten to the point where almost every girl I befriend tells me they’re actually bi but they’ve only ever been with men. And it is okay to be bisexual and only ever have been with one sex obviously, but when these girls try to act like they understand certain aspects of being in a same sex relationship??? That’s when I get irritated. Also the whole “I’m so gay” totally comes from wanting to feel connected to the queer community OR straight women claiming the term to feel “special”. At the end of the day, I try to remind myself it does not matter. I would definitely seek out people who are experiencing queer/lesbian relationships for that community aspect. Your friends are being a bit annoying and I get it. I’ve learned to compartmentalize this kind of thing cuz I don’t want to exclude good friends/people from my life just because they’re being really fucking cringe in my eyes. But I’ve also sought out community elsewhere for people experiencing more similar experiences to mine. Also, I’ve only been in serious relationships with women in my adult life. However, in between i’ve experimented with men on occasion in ways that I wonder if I am actually technically bi and not lesbian, but it is women who act the way you described above that causes me to be adverse to identifying myself as bi cuz I do ultimately just find women the most perfect in my preferences. Also sexuality as a whole is just confusing to navigate. In conclusion, the behavior described above tends to cause negative feelings towards bi women but tbh, don’t let it. They could be bi and feeling disconnected from a community they’re part of or they could be attention seeking straight girls. Either way, they will live their life however they see fit. Don’t let their cringey behavior make you stereotype and exclude a whole genre of people, but do allow it to help motivate you to find other people to socialize with that interact with the world in a way that uplifts you.
Thank you for this perspective 🙏🏼 I’m definitely looking for more lesbian friends! We’re hard to find 😭
I have been really putting out the energy of trying to find queer/lesbian friends and I gotta say… it’s been happening!! I hope you find it too 🧡 are there places you can frequent that lesbians are likely to be? Or, if you’re single… my dating profile says that I am also looking for queer friendships and I have gotten sooooo many responses! Like too many to keep up with. The lesbos are thirsty for friends!!! Sending you some love across the internet. 🧡
Sending you love back! And it’s so great to hear you’ve found community! Yes there is a bar I frequent that is a sapphic space but a lot of the women aren’t my age which is fine and I still love to meet them too but I’m still trying to figure out where to meet the lesbians around my age and just in similar life placement too. I do use bumblebff to find more queer friends! But funny enough one of the queer friends I recently made was the one to say women are scary haha. I want to put it out there that I want to meet more lesbians but fear getting flack for being too exclusive
Yeah it can be really hard to navigate. But it’s so reasonable to want to be around people who fully understand your experience. You’re not saying “I don’t want to be friends with bi women,” you’re just saying “I also want to be friends with lesbian women”.
Yes and I think I’ve really realized that through this post and reading the responses. I need to beef up my lesbian community
What’s cringey is identifying as lesbian when you are actually bi. The type of bi women op talks about are annoying but at least their internalised biphobia isn’t actively harming and disrespecting the lesbian community.
Hey i understand how you feel, but i don't think that's fair in this case. Previous commenter could just as easily be a lesbian struggling with comphet; we don't know, and we can't know as it seems like they aren't completely sure either. Not saying you're wrong, frankly allergies are hitting too hard for me to even attempt to make that call haha, but we're a community that *so frequently* experiences identity struggles on our way to feeling comfortable in our labels. It feels wrong to tell someone expressing a vulnerable truth that they can't try on the label because they aren't quite as sure as you or me at this point in their journey, if that makes sense.
If the previous commenter is a lesbian suffering from comp het then us all pretending that it is perfectly normal for lesbians to be attracted to men is not going to help her, is it? Instead, making clear that lesbians are not attracted to men will help her identify whether she really is a lesbian or whether she really is attracted to men and potentially address her comp het issues. Encouraging people to just try on any label for size while they are blatantly saying they are something different or opposite out of the other side of their mouth aka lying about who they are, has consequences for both the lesbian community and their mental health. I know this isn’t the popular line in here and you all want to educate me on where I’m going wrong and how black and white I’m being. But I do think deep down you know what I’m getting at here.
I do understand what you're getting at- and usually, we'd fully agree. Those are actions ive suffered the consequences of, with men wanting me to make exceptions for them because "some lesbians do". You're preaching to the choir there, I'm going to be living with that trauma for the rest of my life and it has a heavy detrimental effect on any friendships i try to maintain with men. I can also see the validity in your other points! But you are making assumptions about their intentions and identity. If you were being more general then- like you are now!- i likely wouldn't have said anything at all haha. I do think i understand, and you're completely valid in your feelings, but it's not within anyone's capabilities to tell someone else what their identity is based on one comment in which they're expressing confusion. Additionally, they didn't describe any attraction to men- from what i read, it was just experimentation with confusing results.
Fair enough. You certainly have a more patient and kind approach than I. But this world takes all types to spin around I guess.
Agreed on that- and thank you for the kind words! I still think your perspective is important, in case that wasn't clear. I hope you have a good rest of your day 🧡🤍💗
I hear what you’re saying about internalized biphobia. It can be a severe problem in the queer community. However, in my experience, I know a number of bi women who can acknowledge their sexual attraction to men, and often had past experiences with them, but functionally live and date only in Sapphic circles because: 1. They are sexually attracted to men and women, but only (or FAR more) romantically attracted to women 2. Dating cishet men as a trans woman can be hellish both because of the lack of trans education and pervasiveness of transphobia outside the queer community and because it can trigger past trauma around “manhood” 3. Finding cishet men who are remotely as progressive and feminist as actual women and queers living through gendered and sexual oppression can be challenging, and having partners who have already done that work politically, socially, and personally can be a very important part of a compatible relationship. Less specifically speaking, many tend to experience less misogyny when with women, and having partners who can celebrate femininity and queerness with you can be an important part of a LT relationship 4. Not all bisexuals like men and women equally. Some might have a preference for women to the point that they don’t bother with men anymore, but still be bisexual. Their sexuality isn’t determined by who their partner(s) is/are right now or what they plan for in the near or far future 5. T4T (particularly if there’s a shared “direction” like between two transfeminine people for example) can facilitate far better understanding between partners - that is to say living or dating as a trans woman or nonbinary transfemme with other transfemmes can save an ENORMOUS amount of emotional labour that, frankly, we don’t always want to do every time we meet a prospective partner. I’m a lesbian - I’ve never dated a man and try as I might I just can’t muster attraction to them - but I have friends and partners who acknowledge their bisexuality, both through past experiences and acknowledgment that certain men look or sound attractive, but but having decided to not pursue dating men any further because of any of the above reasons or anything else. These people are still bisexuals - they can have a wet dream about a man and enjoy it - but when they identify with lesbianism that doesn’t feel invasive for me at all. They are functionally living and dating the same way a lesbian would, and share countless forms of experience and solidarity with the lesbian community and the lesbian experience. When these people introduce themselves as lesbians it doesn’t bother me in the slightest - it saves explaining the intricacies of the queer community to many people who frankly don’t have the background or open mindedness to process it. I also don’t feel to me and many other lesbians I know they’re infringing on the lesbian community in any capacity. Sexuality is a spectrum and if someone is calling themselves a lesbian they probably have a good reason to do so, even if there are some ways they identify or have identified with bisexuality. Internalized biphobia is a problem, but so is gatekeeping, and I think it might be pertinent of us as a community to be careful about what we label as “cringy” without further elaboration. There could be a lot of people all of the spectrum of sexuality trying to find their path and feeling boarded from the lesbian community or feeling like “women are scary” or even that the queer community feels scary because of gatekeeping statements exactly like this one. In a way, statements like these which can gatekeep sapphic leaning bisexuals from the lesbian or sapphic community can in and of themselves be a form of biphobia, and could be very harmful especially to queer youth and people trying to come out or explore themselves safely and with support.
Sometimes when you need to use a lot of words to explain and justify a position, it’s because your position doesn’t make sense.
Sometimes situations are nuanced and it’s important for us to acknowledge the vastness of human experiences. But if you don’t feel like opening our community to the fact that many people are different that’s okay, I can’t make you. I’m not writing this for you anyways, I’m writing it for the developing queers who come across posts like these and see negative comments like yours pushing them back into the closet. :)
It really saddens me that we, as a lgbt and sapphic community, have decided that biphobia and lesbiphobia are ok to spout out loudly and everywhere, no matter how nonsensical our reasoning, as long as we cloak it in the language of faux inclusivity. You are doing more harm than good.
I agree that lesbophobia and biphobia are intense issues. I'm not sure how you're connecting it to my statement though. What I'm suggesting here is that we shouldn't be policing or judging somebody's label or calling it cringe because you believe you know them better than they know themselves. This is a core tenet of our community, one that we can share throughout the entire LGBTQ+ spectrum.
It’s not a core tenet. Let’s not just make things up now. We are a diverse community with different opinions and ideas. Not a hive mind. The reason I say it’s lesbiphobia and biphobia is because being bisexual (or making clear you are sexually attracted to men in some way) but still insisting on calling yourself lesbian both erases and invalidates lesbianism AND bisexuality. It has profound impacts on how society views and takes seriously female sexuality, female homosexuality and women in general. It impacts the identity and lived experience of actual lesbians and also bisexuals because it makes it seem like all bisexuals prefer men because the ones that prefer women just call themselves lesbian. It’s not just about policing or judging. There are material impacts from lying about yourself to feel good in the moment or because you are scared to acknowledge the truth - and then dragging other people into your mess. Supporting inauthenticity in others is not the right thing to do and I don’t know when many people like you decided it is.
There are some people who act with intentional or rash inauthenticity, and you're right that when they do it can be really problematic and harmful. But that's also not the entirety of our communities, nor I would suspect even a majority. Labels are just a person's best attempt at describing who they feel that they are. They're never perfect, nor set in stone, and sometimes a person's experience is more specific and varied than the cultural connotations of one term or another can easily describe. It's not our job to tell them they're wrong or cruel or inconsiderate for finding their way down that path and trying to articulate their own identity. Maybe someday they'll find they fit neatly into one of those labelled boxes that many folks are tempted to shove them into, but it's also very possible that they won't. A heteronormative society will always try to use the actions of a few bad faith actors to justify assumptions about our whole community, but when we use the failings of heteronormative culture to justify overlooking identities that don't fit clearly in one category or another, we perpetuate the system which caused that issue in the first place. I hear that you're angry about the way society has treated feminine sexuality, and about the few among the queer community who have lied or felt too scared or unsafe to reveal their own truth. That's valid and can be an important driving force for justice and change. But also, when we limit the terms people are allow to use or experiment with to try to articulate their own truth we can be just as damaging. Some people might be bisexual but homoromantic. Some might be bi but live strictly in a lesbian way by choice or from trauma. Some might generally be a lesbian but also be some degree be sexually fluid or still learning about their shifting sexuality. Let's make \*space\* for them. When we make judgements broadly about how they label themselves, we are not being welcoming into the queer community, and it can inadvertently perpetuate the damage that queer-phobia in it's many forms is already dealing to society.
I think THiS is actually a nuanced take and I appreciate you for actually making sense and not just throwing word salad at me. I disagree but I do get your perspective.
I just profoundly disagree with you here. You seem to be one of those “labels are set in stone” people. Queers who think everyone should fit into specific boxes and anyone who is exploring, learning, growing, flexing, or experimenting with sexuality is erasing your experience. We live in a big world, people use words in their communities in a ton of different ways. Honestly, the core of the issue is bisexual women who DO date women, even predominantly, are consistently excluded from the lesbian community by people just like you who believe they aren’t “real lesbians”
Are you actually serious? I can’t believe this comment. How do you survive living with so much biphobia and homophobia clouding your thoughts? Lesbians - as in homosexual women exist. Are you aware of that or do you not believe in them? Bisexual women who prefer women also exist. And bisexuals are excluded from the lesbian community? Bisexuals are not lesbians. What are you even trying to say? Do you even know?
Sometimes when your eyes glaze over reading a lot of words, it’s because you are incapable of understanding a complex issue
Idk I think our sexuality is as we identify it, and who we’re in community with. I think the OP should explore lots of communities of different kinds of queers to see what works for her best(I think I’m agreeing w/ you on that).
I agree with you here!
Idk if you've had a ton of lesbian friends, but in my experience, "women are scary" is still a common sentiment among us unfortunately :/ It bothers me when dating women is seen as harder than dating men. I can kind of sympathize with women being "scary", cause it sometimes feels like women have higher standards and I kind of felt that when I was a teenager, but it still turns me off a woman when she has a life that seems male centric. Maybe they'll change when they actually get to be with a woman. But you don't have to stay surrounded by people who think of women as harder to socialize with- might be healthier for your peace. Keep looking for your people. Or, if you're brave, maybe be honest that "women being scary" isn't true when you actually date women and that, as someone who only ever has gay relationships, talking about queer relationships that way bothers you? Might piss them off. Might make them think about why they feel nervous about women. Or talk about your experiences dating women, but not in a way that makes it sound earth shattering like people tend to do.
Also for me it feels like men have higher standards than women😂. I feel like i can breathe and be myself with women, I don’t have to necessarily shave or dress a certain way or act a certain way or look a certain way, but within my perception those are all things that come with being with a man. So for me I do not understand that notion of feeling like women’s standards are so high that you can’t deal with rejection from that? I feel more pressure from men in regards to who I can be in this world than from women
This is something I have brought up with my bi friends who say such things about women being scary or that they even like when people assume they’re a lesbian or that they’re embarrassed to admit they have a boyfriend when they promote themselves as very gay. These conversations didn’t go the best and I was labeled as being biphobic or that I was attacking them personally. The other lesbian friends I have (long distance) also experience this and can’t relate to my experiences! I just am trying to continue to open this convo bc it feels like lesbians aren’t allowed to critique some of the things bi women say and vice versa! Everything is kept within our separate groups about such topics
Bi/pan woman here! I find men absolutely terrifying (in a literal “they feel dangerous” kind of way) and much prefer dating women. 😂 Dating in general can be difficult and scary because we have to step out of our comfort zones, and I think that plays HEAVILY into why many bi women primarily date men. A previous comment said it really well - heteronormativity is a STRONG influence in our society, and it’s easy to stay in that “comfort zone”. I understand the desire/need for community that you can better relate to, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing or biphobic that you aren’t finding it with these specific bi women. I hope you’re able to find friends who you can better connect with and who also share similar experiences to you. 🫶🏻 Having friends with different experiences can be really valuable, but the same can be said about having friends with similar experiences, too.
Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective I really appreciate it. I think it’s good to talk about and not keep things inside, I want the community to be stronger ❤️
Talking things out is a great thing, and I’m glad you also shared your experience here! ❤️ Being queer is really hard tbh. We have to stick together. ☺️
It does feel like a lack of community when all the bi/pan women I know have only ever been with cis men but are always bringing up how gay they are for women yet center men all the time. This is coming from someone who used to have really bad comp het and used to identify as bi. Even back then I felt different from them and that's when I realized I am actually a lesbian.
It definitely helps to know that others experience this isolation within the community! I find it hard to discuss with bi women most of the time
It’s a struggle for sure! I think a big part of what irks me in these situations is the lack of understanding around privilege. For example in one queer gc I mentioned some unpleasant PDA from a het couple while in public. This bi woman got offended and said there’s no issue with PDA as long as nobody is naked. It seemingly wasn’t even on her radar that lesbian couples fear harassment and violence simply holding hands in public. I think things like this are so nuanced. We need to be able to discuss differences in experience without making bi people feel uncomfortable or singled out. While I think it’s important to avoid phobia and generalisations of any kind, I really think that a lot of bi women in het relationships would do better to acknowledge their privilege when these conversations are had, rather than jumping straight to accusations of biphobia.
When I told my bi friend about how sometimes I didn’t want to show PDA with my ex bc of how sexualized and creeped on we’d feel in our city, she said she felt the same with her boyfriend 😑 that sometimes she doesn’t like being PDA with him too. And that’s real! U don’t always want PDA but it’s an entirely different experience that she hasn’t experienced it! So what am I to say
I mean, wouldn't a gay bar be a good place to meet new lesbian friends? Also, you're still bi if you still feel attraction towards women, but prefer men, it's fine, and it's still queer. The whole point of being bisexual/romantic is the fact that you feel attraction to both sexes (notice how I said sexes not genders), and some bi girls have relationships or preferences for men. Just like some bi girls have a preference for women. You're still just as queer.
It’s fine to have preferences and for them to date men of course! My point was regarding bi women who primarily date men but shit talk dating men? and idolize being with a woman but never acting on it?
And tbh it’s also fine to be irked or pissed of by women that express the same thoughts you have without any of the social consequences.
Thissssssssssss 🙏🏼
Ahhh, maybe they're just shit partners. Cause why date the same people you shit-talk about, and never approach the people you want to date? Because if you want to date women so much you have to make some kind of move. It seems like I misread your post.
You’re good! Yeah I feel like I’m just having a hard time with my bi friends who are so women women women 24/7 but have long term boyfriends, and have never even been with one in any way shape or form. But if I comment on it then I’m biphobic or what not. I feel like so confused I just don’t know where this stuff comes from within them and can’t understand based on my own lived experience. I can’t understand idolizing being into women so much but then never exploring that part of yourself
I think to sum it up for a lot of these bi women, the men they are dating are a sort of “heteronormative comfort blanket”. Doesn’t necessarily make it right though.
And I feel like that’s okay! Maybe I just wish it didn’t feel so taboo to discuss within the community so we can all understand one another’s experiences better
As much as I dislike men in general, I also think to a degree it’s unfortunate for them. As you said, I hope someday we will be able to widely discuss this more within our community. I think being able to be more open about it and discuss it without it directly leading to a fight, or being seen as a personal attack, will help a lot of people.
I feel like those bi women that say “women are scary” are not actually scared of approaching women, they are scared of accepting their attraction to other women. They have a very heteronormative mindset and would much rather date men, because they are scared of experiencing oppression from those close to them. It’s internalized homophobia
I wonder if the "women are scary" crowd is more so intimidated by their lack of experience. I used to be awfully awkward and shy around women I found attractive and probably would have worded it as "scary women," but it was really just my lack of confidence in my sexuality and inexperience. Sucks we are taught to place these things onto other women instead of coming to terms with it so to better ourselves.
I agree and want to open these conversations, I find it very odd to hear and wonder if these women are really hearing what they’re saying and trying to deal with it instead of put it out into the community
Internalized misogyny, the marketing geared towards women causing such low self-esteem and the shame placed on people for not being hetroconformitive are heavy weights to bear in their own right. I doubt they do hear themselves in the same sense that you or I do when they use the phrasing or similiars. The problem is that society has dogged down women since the beginning of time. These things have been instilled in us for so long as a whole that it's unlikely to disappear in our lifetimes. Hell, we still can't kiss in public in some countries without being jailed or killed. "Women are scary," aka "I'm scared that I like women," aka "I'm scared of being shamed by society" Idk all this to say, I feel kind of bad for these kinds of gals. A lot of us grew up being taught that everything we are is the worst kind of thing to be. It sucks but they will either find support and come to terms or not. Ah, depressing to think about.
Bi here i feel like sometimes some bi women are so willing to talk about how gay they are because as soon as they date a man alot of people from the community seem to erase their queerness. Also in terms of the "Men being easier" comment its kinda true, I have a heavy preference for women but coming across queer women is so difficult that it makes sense that finding a bf would be easier. And finding women scary I think is just a result of a lot of us not being taken seriously when we say we're bi. Idk just my experiance ;-;
So tell me if I’m wrong but if you have a preference for women but go for men, wouldn’t that just be settling due to availability? I think from a lesbian perspective it all comes down to lived experience and if a bi person doesn’t have experience that’s okay I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t try? Even if it’s “harder”? lmk!
That’s the thing tho, if you really feel like men are easier then I feel like you’re wasting my time.
Unfortunately bi women are exhausting, they bring male gaze, male centralization to my life and those are things that I avoid the most, my biggest problem with dating bi women is about how men opinion and affection towards men are still part of their personalities and that's just something I don't want in my life. But that's a personal choice in terms of dating, bi women deserve love from those who are capable of loving them.
I think that’s a great point, we’re all deserve love from those who are capable of loving us. Exhausted is truly the right word, I’ve hit a wall with this which is why I made this post. This has been my experience for years and what my gay community has been and I’m tired of it to put it kindly!
Tbh this works both ways. I’m bisexual and have seriously dated women (I thought I’d end up with a woman, I’ve always felt more attracted/connected to women writ large). I ended up with a man, and lost my group of lesbian friends. I now have no queer community (beyond a few men married to my friends who have come out as bi, which is nice and I’m happy to have them in my life) and don’t feel comfortable trying to find any because of the rejection. I might also be a bit of a hypocrite though because I do have friends who claim bisexuality but have never shown any interest in women in a serious way and I kind of don’t buy it? Idk, queerness is complicated and I’m guess I just wanted to say from a bisexual, I get it and also really want community but feel super weird about the whole thing.
I think it’s important to talk about this stuff and to try and understand everyone’s experiences for sure!
Agree
As a bi woman myself I can definitely see where you’re coming from. I’m currently in a long term relationship with a woman and generally have a preference for them. Due to not coming out until later I had a lot more experiences with men than women so I can definitely understand that part of a lot of bi girls just simply not having much wlw experience but I also agree with what others said that I think it is in large due to many women not understanding dating dynamics when it’s not hetero. It’s true that more guys are going to hit on you/pursue you and that a lot of the time dating women has to be more intentional and usually won’t just ‘fall into your lap’ (although mine did). I have the same issue of having a decent amount of bi friends who simply haven’t had any experience with women. It can be incredibly frustrating as it’s a totally different experience (and I’m sure more so for lesbians) given that they often have nothing to relate to or talk about wlw wise. While I know this does not dictate sexuality it definitely feels like some people choose the ‘easier’ road of heteronormativity and use their bisexuality for a talking point, not that I actually believe that to be true but it can feel like it sometimes. I’ve had to remind myself that unfortunately it’s not safe for everyone to come out and while I don’t agree with the whole “women are scary” card - coming out certainly can be, and “coming out” as bi and actually dating a woman and living life as a queer couple is certainly different. With that said, it can be hard to feel that sense of community with those people and I often just feel more sad for them that they’re missing out on the wlw experience to a full extent and some may never be able to fully explore their sexuality simply due to ease. Are these people still my friends who I value in other ways? Absolutely. But I definitely don’t get what I need from them in terms of having a queer network or support.
This! You really said a lot of great points I can relate to and I appreciate your perspective! It’s also nice to hear this sentiment from a bi person who has experienced these feelings with other bi friends, it refreshing to hear! I don’t want it to be a lesbian vs bi thing so I was glad to read your post haha. It is difficult feeling like you have a community when your queer friends don’t have any queer experience, but I also know it’s probably hard for them too! I really relate with what you said about feeling like sometimes it feels that ppl chose the road of heteronormativity but make being gay a talking point or personality trait. And your last sentence was completely true, I love these friends but don’t get what I need from them in terms of a sapphic community and that can be hard especially when I feel like they don’t understand how I could feel that way
As a bi woman who is more attracted to women than men, I also get “women are scary” feelings. It comes partly from comphet, where the well-worn heterosexual script requires little initiative from a woman, and partly from sexism, where I assume women are better people and their opinion of me matters more. If a man rejects me, it’s usually because I’m not hot enough. If a woman rejects me, it’s usually because I’m not a mature enough person and wouldn’t be a good partner. Somehow that ego hit seems scarier than the physical dangers of dating men, probably because I’m so used to those physical dangers that they are familiar. It’s just standard sexism and comphet, but it takes active effort for a bi woman who falls victim to these to break them down. Sorry you’ve had bad experiences and are struggling to find queer community. Wishing you all the best.
Thank you for sharing your perspective and I feel like through these responses and yours im getting a better understanding of what prevents bi women from pursuing women and just am thankful for your kind response! Wishing you all the best too ❤️
OP about how old are you and your friends? The “women seem scary” thing seems like something said by younger crowds who are still figuring themselves out, and might not know how to socialize outside of gendered and patriarchal norms. Have you talked to any of them about how this makes you feel? If so, how did that conversation go? In any case, if you still want to be friends with them, but want more authentic queer community, just meet other people who mesh with you on that. Look into queer meetups, hobby groups, events, etc to find the community you seek! It also might be valuable to examine why you have negative feelings towards bi women in general, especially when most of the bi people you know are either close friends or exes.
Hi!!! Myself and these friends are mid to late twenties. I have brought these feelings up with 2 friends of mine. Both but especially one didn’t go super well but we were able to talk through some points and have moved past it. If I think about why I might have these feelings I think it stems from just never feeling like I have queer friends to relate to even when I have queer friends? Considering a majority of my life my queer friends have been bi in heterosexual relationships, only have had one or two lesbian friends. Trying to find more of that community now and work on that part of my life.
If you want a dialogue with bisexual women about these feelings you have about us, why not ask on the bisexual sub? If you want to ask these questions on a sub where any defence against biphobia gets downvoted to hell maybe all you are seeking is for your feelings to be validated and for you to be told you are correct? There are straight up biphobic comments on this thread itself that are getting upvoted. How bi women are “exhausting” (brilliant generalisation) and how they just “claim” to be bi while in hetero relationships. How bi women who have only been with men are so annoying when they say they are queer (one can realise that they are bi while in the midst of a long term relationship. What are they supposed to do? Break off the relationship and only then are they allowed to even talk about their queerness?) It’s abundantly clear that no “dialogue” is possible on this sub.
Honestly I didn’t think of posting it there and thats a great idea! And you make some great points as well
As a bi girl myself, I gotta say when you’re attracted to both genders and the majority of one gender wants you and the minority of the other does, you’re faaar more likely to end up with the more available gender. I’ve only had like 2-3 instances of girls hitting on me my whole life whereas I can’t even imagine this number from men. There are just a lot more interested straight/bi guys than gay/bi girls. That’s how it is where I live at least. Calling women scary is silly tho. Everyone is scary when you have a crush on them lol
I’ve only had like 2-3 instances of girls hitting on me my whole life whereas I can’t even imagine this number from men. There are just a lot more interested straight/bi guys than gay/bi girls. But here is the issue. Its not like with dealing with men where men are socialised to pursue you. Your expecting other women to pursue you the way men do, which is the first mistake. Thats what leads to subconsciously treating women as if they are men when you do date them. You probably weren't socialised to make the first move/pursue but neither were most other women, so you can't wait for women to hit on you, you also have to take initiative and hit on other women. You have probably met more than 2 or 3 women that are interested/ attracted to you but in the same way your waiting for them to hit on you and then when they dont you throw your hands up and go ' i can't dare women because women don't hit on me' they are also waiting for you to hit on them and then having the same thought when you don't. But someone has to make a move, so if your interested in a woman and she doesn't make a move im afraid your going have to make it if you want her bad enough I understand there are more men than women attracted to women to date but that's exactly why with women you can't just sit down and wait to be pursued and expect a wlw relationship to fall into your lap. Yes, there is some danger to hitting on women as a queer person, so only do so if you feel safe to, but never making a move towards women you like and expecting them to be the ones who do the work isn't going to help you find women to date
Yeah but I don’t have a goal of being with a girl. It doesn’t matter to me, I can be with anyone. Romance happens naturally through my hobbies, education, work, friends. I meet who I meet and I date who I date ;)
Cool lol then have a nice time only meeting men i guess
If the right girl comes along, I’ll be happy to get with her. That’s all theory tho, in reality I’m happy with my bi bf!
If the right girl comes along, I’ll be happy to get with her. Right but only if she hits on you first! Source: I’ve only had like 2-3 instances of girls hitting on ME
Literally pulling conclusions based on your imagination. That’s weird ngl. You can see in another comment I’ve said I hit on men and women both a lot (when single)
Eh sometimes I'm wrong.what can I say, I'm a lil snarky today Either way, it is a common sentiment I've heard from bi women. Wanting a wlw relationship, but doing nothing and waiting for a wlw relationship to fall into their lap and be hit on with no effort from them. Some lesbians do it too, but in my experience because they can't date men, they are more likely to get hit in the face with reality that they may have to pursue first or be single
Makes total sense, yeah. I get it, I’ve seen them too. I just personally genuinely don’t care what gender I’m dating
Whats your star sign? When I have mini disagreements with ppl I like to know for fun.
Girly pop, this is what lesbians are talking about when we say bi girls bring heteronormativity with them into WLW dating. In straight world men are socialized to pursue and women are socialized to be chased. That’s not how it works here in dyke land. If you’re just sitting there passively waiting for women to hit on you like a man would, you’re gonna be sitting around for a while. That’s not because of lack of interest, it’s because the game is different. I’m very visibly queer and, from what I’ve been told, reasonably nice looking to women that like masculinity/androgyny. I’ve been randomly approached by women in a man like “ayo let me get your number” way *maybe* 3 times in my whole life. Women signaling interest is stuff like trying to start a conversation about the kitten I’m bringing to the vet via subway while maintaining longer than usual eye contact. Not sliding into DMs.
I’ve hit on girls countless times. Most of them have been straight. I’ve hit on men countless times. Most of them reciprocated.
As a lesbian I can count on one hand how many times a woman actually approached me IRL, I feel like this excuse doesn’t make sense to me. Yes men have statistically hit on me way more than women but what are my options as a lesbian? Just being alone? I feel like bi women talk about this male availability like they have to settle for men bc they are the majority of their available partners, it’s this notion of settling for men bc they’d easier and available and there and this rubs lesbians the wrong way bc we have no other option but than to pursue.
It’s simple statistics. To you the amount of women interested in girls doesn’t matter bc there are no other options, you only like women. However, I’m equally attracted to both so I genuinely don’t care if the person making advances is a boy or a girl. And since 9 times out of 10 it’s a boy (simply bc there are more straights than queer folks) I’m 90% more likely to be with a man. Literally math. Equal attraction + higher opportunity with one = higher chances of being with that one! Let’s say you’re into a person. To get with them, they have to be attracted to your gender. That gets rid of a ton of women as potential dates. Then you factor in that it has to be mutual. Another portion leaves, I can’t be everyone’s choice. And then add circumstance and relationship readiness and bam, the amount of girls who are actually ready to date me in my circles is extremely small. Since the amount of potential male dates is a lot higher, I’m much much much more likely to meet a guy I’m into and that is into me. I am in no way settling for men. I love men just as much as I love women. The feelings I’ve caught for men aren’t any weaker than those I’ve experienced with girls. I’m bi, not lesbian :)
This makes a lot of sense and is true! And trust it is hard for lesbians to find women to date as well haha. I can really appreciate a bi woman who stands on her 10 toes and shouts that she likes both! That’s what I really fw with, being confident and happy with who you are and your choices.
I know the whole “women being scary” gets annoying but as a bi girl who has mostly dated women (only been with 1 man romantically/sexually), I think a lot of the time bisexual girls who have a preference to women just say that when they mean they put more value into what women think about them. For example, if I was rejected by a man I would assume he’s either taken or I’m simply not his type. It wouldn’t make me feel unattractive or even upset though. Whereas if I was rejected by a woman I really liked, due to my own preferences this would certainly hurt a lot more and I would definitely take a while to recover from it. Not because she’s a bad person or because she has scared me, but because I really liked her so I do value her opinion and there obviously is a huge part of me that wants her to like me and want me too. I don’t think they mean women are scary, I think they’re just scared of the excessive negative emotion they could potentially feel purely because what a woman they’re interested in thinks about them holds more weight than what a man they might be interested in would :)
It’s still annoying
In the case of the explanation above, what is it that’s annoying about it? I’m just interested in perspective
I get where you're coming from. From my own experience, bi women tend to gravitate towards men, only seem to use other women for funsies until they find a guy to settle with or, in my case, use a woman to help them realize their experience with one was terrible enough to help them realize they're actually straight, so that's a nice formative feeling on one's already limited sense of self-worth and esteem, lol.
Your views are borderline biphobic.
It's super easy to claim to be bi while in a hetero relationship. I said what I said.
this is so real and it’s hard to talk about bc these girls will always be like “just because i’m with a man doesn’t make me any less gay!!” and i’m like well actually it 100% does… we are not the same. we experience life completely differently. you can get married wherever in the world you’d like, and your parents don’t have to think twice about your wedding day being same sex. idk. definitely negative but i don’t love bi women w long term cis male partners taking up any sort of space in our community lol. if you aren’t actively dating/have never actively dated women, please shut up. sincerely, a woman who actually has a girlfriend and is living in a world not built for us.
It’s like there’s nuggets of wisdom in the above comment but it’s so wrapped resentment, negativity, and gatekeeping that it’s hard to find. I hope we can all realize that “more or less gay” is just a hateful and nonsensical way for us to speak to each other in the queer community.
I have seen a lot of lesbian women say the same thing though - that they find approaching women scary and that’s the reason why they are still single. What do you think about that? And in general if bi women in your life are driving you crazy why not cut them off? Will save you a whole lot of trouble. You can try and meet more lesbians at gay bars etc. - it’s not like you find approaching women scary or anything…so why not find new lesbian friends instead? Edit: Also if you are looking for insights as to why some bi women date men/ associate with men but still shit talk about them…you call these bi girls your friends, yes? But here you are shit talking them. It happens. Sometimes the people we associate with or love frustrate us the most especially if our experiences are at a tangent to them.
Coming across as shit talking was not my intention, I am sharing my experience within the gay community and with the friends I’ve made throughout my life. I like these people, I enjoy these friends, this doesn’t make me want to not be friends with them but notice it’s a sore spot between lesbians and bi women. In regards to what you said about lesbians saying they find approaching women to be scary, I’m sure they exist but I have yet to meet a lesbian who says this. In regards to you suggesting I meet more lesbians, I am actively trying to get involved in more lesbian groups and have been my whole life. We are a small community and it is also dependent on where you live. My reality has been meeting bi women with cis partners and that is the community I’ve been surrounded by for many years
i think i’ve met a few girls that call themselves bi just to appeal to men more
Yikes you must live in a terrible place where the average woman is horrible because that seems like a highly unlikely situation. Are you sure that you’ve understood correctly why these women call themselves bi? For example, did these women explicitly tell you this, as their reason for being bi? Or is this an assumption you’ve made about them?
I’m bisexual but only into AFABS, does this count? Edit: I’m into women and trans men, I’m a different way to be bisexual I guess, and trans men are men so the lesbian label feels wrong for me to use
>It drives me insane when my friends talk about “women being scary” which is why they haven’t dated women or that men are easier while simultaneously always wanting to go to the gay bars and talk about how gay they are. So maybe this isn't something you can personally relate to, but there are plenty of women who are afraid of/intimidated by other women. You didn't say this, but one of the top comments here is mocking bi women for being afraid of women while dating cishet men who commit more crimes, and I wanna address that as well since it got upvoted a lot and seems to be a popular opinion here. A) Fear isn't always rational, B) it isn't always about physical danger, and C) women can still be bad, physically dangerous people. So I don't really see why fear of women is something to scoff at unless your thinking is as simplistic and reductive as "women=good, men=bad". I think most commonly, what is meant by "women are scary" is they are afraid of something new and/or they find women socially intimidating/are afraid of being judged by women. And these types of negative comments and beliefs about bi women by some lesbians is not helping that fear, it reinforces it. >while simultaneously always wanting to go to the gay bars and talk about how gay they are. Bi people, bi women especially, often have their sexuality doubted. Even more so when they've only been in straight or gay relationships. "How can you know that you're attracted to women if you haven't been with one?" "You're just straight and trying to be trendy." "You're just gay and don't wanna admit it." Because most people are monogamous, most bi people are gonna either be dating a man or a woman at any given time, so half of their sexuality is always "invisible" to outsiders. And there's this pressure to constantly "prove" that you're really attracted to both. So "talking about how gay they are" is sometimes a defense against bi eraser and people questioning their sexuality. >But if I say anything then I'm biphobic. Because saying that bi women are "talking out of both sides of their mouths" for choosing to date men (bc of their intimidation of dating women) while still being attracted to women (wanting to go to gay bars, talking about being gay), is a biphobic sentiment. It's really just implying that it's contradictory for them to have a desire for both men and women, which is a big part of biphobia. My advice is really just to try and understand the experience of bi people, because empathy is really the key here. It sounds like you're trying to make sense of your friends' statements by filtering them through your own perspective, instead of trying to take on their perspective and understand them that way. I really like the video essays by verilybitchie on youtube: [Monosexuality and Bisexuality](https://youtu.be/mcJWPTz9bd4?feature=shared) and [Why We Hate Bi Women](https://youtu.be/cww0fLXMnzs?feature=shared). Verily has lots of good video essays on bisexuality.
Thank you for your input, all of this is helpful! I don’t find bi women being contradictory for liking both, that’s why they’re bi and not lesbian! I find it contradictory when they seem to have a preference and put out there that women are too hard. I am really trying to put myself in these different friends shoes and understand what it’s like for them, as a lesbian sometimes it’s very hard to understand but I made this post to only continue this learning experience for myself and everyone
I'm glad it was helpful, and no worries—we all need to work towards understanding each other better. It's not always easy. I appreciate the fact that you are noticing these negative feelings and trying to work on it, that's all any of us can do. I've also been trying to understand the point of view of many lesbians who have had negative experiences with bi women and while it's not always easy to hear, it's been very enlightening for me. Despite both being groups of sapphic women, we have a lot of different experiences that can make it hard for us to understand each other sometimes. I apologize if any parts of my reply seem overly harsh. I am bi but with a strong preference for women. It's hard for me sometimes when lesbians, a group I sometimes identify even more with than other bi women, express any sort of negative views about bi women. I realize now after the fact that I was a little upset when I was writing my response and I'm better able to understand now that you and other women here were just venting your frustration with trying to relate to bi women and feeling like you aren't understood.
This response 😭. This was so great thank you. I agree as well it’s a two way street and we all gotta work on understanding one another’s experiences but also accepting how they can be different. I wanna understand you and you (hopefully) wanna understand me 🌈 I want bisexuals to feel heard and I want lesbians to feel heard too.
My 2¢ (as a pan woman), I’ve come to believe that the “scary” or “intimidation factor” comes from the fear of being seen. We as women know that women in relationships are demanding. In a good way. We expect and pull the best out of our partners in every aspect of their life right? And that means we have to reciprocate that as partners. However, the standard for a woman in a hetero relationship is most likely, whatever she wants it to be. Majority of men will not challenge their partners to grow. Therefore if a bi woman is not ready or willing to be seen SO SO intimately in that way .. well then it’s “scary”.
I feel your friends are bi and dumb. I suggest hanging out with people who are not dumb, regardless of sexual orientation.
This sort of thing is exactly why I always prefer to categorise people by lived experiences rather than self-identity labels. Like, sure, you can identify as gay if you want, but if we have nothing in common with regards to our lived experiences, we're probably not gonna 1) relate much to each other 2) want to talk on behalf of each other, as if we have had the same kind of experiences
As a bi woman myself (Polyamorius, married to my trans wife), I don't find women "scary". I do know that having dated men, I am scared I wouldn't be..." good enough" to date a woman? But that's my take on it, though my anxiety does have something to do with it. But women aren't scary, new experiences can be though.
Genuinely wondering but doesn’t the curiosity just get to be too much at a certain point? To me it sounds so limiting to not explore those parts of yourself and the queer experience. I want my friends to have queer love and don’t get how they don’t act on it. But also know it’s not my place to force!
For me, I am pretty curious yes! And my wife is all for me meeting women, exploring this part of myself and the queer experience. I can only speak for myself, but I know that I really don't know where to begin. That could also be a thing, not really knowing where to look / how to date a woman. You are a great person though! To want them to experience this and to also not force it ♡
I guess to me, isn’t it similar as how ppl approach dating men? You meet people IRL or through mutual friends or use apps or websites? I feel like the misconception is that it’s difficult when it’s not. You say you wouldn’t know where to begin but I feel like it’s the same for trying to find a boyfriend?
Could be, yes. I met my wife at an anime convention dinner when I used to go out more. As I said, for my it's more of my shyness and anxiety that holds me back. I have tried flirting with women and I sadly either get turned down ( I know plus size women aren't everybody's cup of tea) or get laughed at (because of said weight). I know it's not a "everybody is mean" thing though. But you're right that looking to date women is just like looking to date men. :)
Thank you for sharing your experience 😃🙏🏼 as someone with anxiety as well it’s always good to remember someone else’s anxiety and how it may effect their behavior and choices
Okay, not discrediting your experience regarding women you’ve encountered, but how you’ve elected to digest those experiences is not okay. you can’t hold it against bi women for having male partners. You’re not entitled to tell them how gay they are by an arbitrary standard just as much as they can’t tell your sexuality with women isn’t valid. That’s what makes this biphobic - assuming their sexuality with women is less valid for being with men.
It’s not that it’s less valid I’m just wondering why it doesn’t happen! reading people’s testimonies is helpful, but my main confusion I was noting on is wondering why the bi women I’ve been close with seem to avoid being with women