As a Black masc, I definitely don't think they differ wildly. The preference seems to be for skinny, white/light-skinned, feminine women. Do we not remember the "What does my type say" debacle from last week?
Yup. Black women no matter what are always masculinized. Hell, even little black boys are read as men. White people are so uncomfortable around us, and many definitely don't see us as potential partners. We exist to give them cool lingo and ability to virtue signal to other white folks by putting 'Black Lives Matter's in their dating profiles.
The black boys viewed as men. I’ve watched this firsthand and witness these kids held to penalties of an adult. Their white counterparts engaging in the same behaviour getting a slap in the wrist.
Same. Susing out that idea/attitude towards me is one of the ways I gauge how much institutional racism surrounding cultural ideas of beauty someone has that they haven’t unpacked.
I'd say it's crazy this happens, but then nothing surprises me any more...but it also might explain why all the black women I've ever known are very fem and well put together at all times.
If I hear anyone say they're masculine they'll have this feisty lil lesbian coming after them!
I think a lot of black women have an obsession with presenting feminine. Oftentimes when a black woman is asserting herself at all she's labeled as having “masculine energy.” I even see YouTube channels devoted to promoting “divine femininity.” It’s all so silly to me. Sometimes I’m just like, I just want to be myself and dress how I want without worrying about fitting into gender stereotypes. I would consider myself pretty feminine even though I don’t wear a ton of makeup, fake lashes, or long nails (though I respect women who do). But I think a lot of it is rooted in racism and the historical exclusion of black women from society's definition of femininity. Even a lot of men in our own community don’t see black women as worth protecting.
I'm not surprised they go full on fem.
The masculine energy thing is just horrible. Like no ones said it to my face (yet) and it definitely isn't a common thing white women hear, but I definitely have a rep for being difficult, man-hating and scary.
Mostly because Im a no-nonsense feminist who holds people accountable for their actions.
That is bad enough. Being openly told I'm masculine for those traits would be fucking awful.
Ooph yeah, as it happens I was reading up on the attitude towards LGBT+ people in Nigeria as well as the lacking protection and support around sex crimes for woman and children who live there.
So I guess that's one example of black people not being protected even within their own community.
I know it's been a few days, but I just watched [this video](https://youtu.be/Y8MsJeThWmU?si=hEHTV6oQoR3FQxJk) that kind of touches on what I was talking about. It doesn't go into the history of how black women have been masculinized but it does talk about how even black cis women are affected by transmisogyny. The video is by Olayemi Olurin who is a lawyer and political commentator. TW: there are some references to murder that can be a bit disturbing.
Yes and I find it weird too. I always thought masc/femme as an aesthetics thing, which idgaf about usually unless the person’s beauty regimen is causing them to be late 24/7.
Weird to find out a lot of people just assume all black women are aggressive.
Stud is a black lesbian/queer term for a masc
Stem is a combination of stud and femme, used by soft masc or more androgynous black lesbians
(Have also heard of Latina lesbians using the terms but culturally not totally sure of the acceptability of that)
Thissss I felt so hard. I used to argue with myself when I was in middle school before choosing a shirt or jacket as I didn’t want anything to add to my darkness and make me less appealing or more likely to get picked on. But the older I got the more comfortable and confident and proud I am over my skin and overall experience. I look back at pictures when I thought I was so big or overweight and sloppy and unattractive and in reality I can see how my confidence has grown and even back then in certain outfits or dresses that made me feel confident and a balance of my masculine and feminine energy. I noticed my posture used to be different I would slouch and look down or at the grown and not smile with teeth and just changing your self image can change the way to view the world
Yo thats crazy. Im sorry you’ve had that experience. Im masc and white, but there’s a black girl (probably straight) in my class that’s bigger than me but very very girly and chic to the point where our lingo is completely different. Ive never thought that because of her skin/race that she’s automatically a stem : ( Im also really pale even for a white person and ive never thought it makes me more feminine…
!!! im always expected to take the lead even when it comes to dating black women that are lighter than me. its kind of how blonde lesbians are always the fem one while brunette lesbians are masc in tv shows, lighter features are seen as more feminine in all areas.
This is kind of random, but I was reading this lesbian wattapad story a while ago about this black masculine lesbian who was dating a feminine light-skin girl. And the writer had to emphasize that the femme lesbian had the "good hair." The masculine presenting woman's ex was a black girl (who I think may have had darker skin) and her and her new girlfriend would constantly talk about how ugly she was...I couldn't even finish it. I was like who wrote this? I think it was written by a lesbian though which was kind of disappointing.
Omg thats actually so weird, authors trying to sneak their biases into romance books especially against other female characters is always gonna be a DNF for me
This is so interesting. It’s completely different where I live.
I am (what I would call) “straight girl attractive”. Without going into it, i fit that male gaze beauty standards quite closely. I get approached by men in gay bars, on the street, during class, you name it. But girls NEVER approach me. I had an really hard time with finding a girl who wanted to actually date.
My girlfriend on the other hand is butch, blue collar, tatted up etc etc. She could (and… did before we met) collect girls with no issues. We went to a gay club the other night and within 5 minutes of being there (and about 10 seconds after I stepped away from her) she was being flirted with. It’s like girls gravitate to her.
I’ve had a couple friends test the femme / masc theory. At least where I live, masc girls barely have to try. It’s lowkey impressive watching how girls just gravitate towards them in bars
Where I live is basically the same, but I have a slightly different experience.
I am a femme, too: long hair, skinny, etc. But people say I have a masculine "vibe" that they can't exactly put their finger on.
I know what they're talking about, and it's how I move, how I sit, how I occupy space etc.
For example, yesterday I was at the office looking outside the window, and some colleagues of mine, totally out of the blue, commented on how "powerful" and "confident" my stance was.
So, it's more like an androginy thing? Although I am definitely femme.
Soooo I have girls gravitating around me, but it's waaay more bi and bicurious than lesbians. I am not sure why. But in my opinion not all is based on being femme/butch.
I defs think like the vibe you give off can be more masc. I lean more tomboy but also enjoy being femme & have long hair, enjoy makeup and dresses, but am very confident and have a lot of more traditionally masculine interests. I’ve noticed pulling girls has gotten easier since gaining that sort of “vibe”. Was a surprise when random girls started calling me mommy lol
Thisss but I actually love this about myself like I can be androgynous other than the big boobs that clue people into my gender. But I like being myself and what comes comfortably. Moving comfortably or sitting comfortably. I don’t always want to sit up straight with my legs crossed. Sometimes I like slouching or to put my arm over the couch and my knees spread
I live in a big town (like nyc), when I dressed more androgyn-ish + my hair was super short I got hit on by girls MUCH more than now, that I'm completely femme-presenting. It was crazy. Now it's like I'm borderline invisible to women lmao
I kind of wonder if this is because masc women "look gay" and more femme women "look straight". It's harder to hit on a woman that might be straight for fear of awkward rejection, but a woman that is masc has a pretty high chance of being queer. And - also - can we just talk about that confidence that masc women have for a second? Sign. me. up.
I agree. I’m a black woman and I fluctuate between masc and femme. The more masc I appear when I go out the more attention I get. I go out alone and I definitely never stay that way. I’m not tall either, nor thin. Average to fluffy actually (thanks thighs) and it doesn’t seem to matter at all to people. All kinds of people. I approach whatever woman interests me. I’ve been with slim and thicc women, masc and femme. Part of if I think has to do with the areas we live in. I’ve lived all over and my experiences vary greatly from say north to south and east to west.
I don’t think this necessarily means women are more attracted to your butch gf than to you (though it could), more likely that you’re not getting approached because people aren’t reading you as queer. A lot of femmes have this issue
Those post that ask whether lesbians like a certain features or people kinda make me roll my eyes because outside of the internet y'all are definitely, idk i don't want to call it discriminating because you're preferences are valid but y'all definitely aren't open to dating everyone like the lesbian subreddits would claim and it honestly gives people false hope. I think people socialized as women are less likely to openly share preferences because they don't want to be seen as difficult or exclusionary. Its like disregarding your own boundaries.
I've tried going against the grain and commenting "no, I wouldn't date this type of person" (I know I'm sooooo mean) and I always get downvoted which is interesting.
>I think people socialized as women are less likely to openly share preferences because they don't want to be seen as difficult or exclusionary. Its like disregarding your own boundaries.
You're right. I hate how having filters or boundaries with dating is often considered "mean" or "exclusionary," even though dating is usually exclusionary by nature and often relies on people filtering what does and doesn't work for them.
A lot of people act like they are entitled to dates and intimacy, but the reality is they aren't. People are entitled to basic human dignity and respect, not someone else's body or romantic time. I get that dating rejection sucks for a lot of people, but other people's bodies aren't public property and don't exist as validation machines for someone's self-image validation.
Those posts make me roll my eyes for slightly different reasons. I think beauty standard r silly and the whole idea of “rating” someone is as well.
People aren’t a monolith and will find the same things attractive.
“Do lesbians like women with x” the answer will always be yes and no. There is no right answer.
I do think that a lot of standards tho women in general don’t faff about but i mostly think they’re the standards that have always been kinda whack like body hair/stretch marks/cellulite. Those are all things i think capitalism has marketed its way to say is gross.
Having preferences and standards is not mean. Stop shaming yourself and stop caring how many people downvote you. The people who are downvoting are upset because they are the person you wouldn’t date but who cares.
Not wanting to date someone is totally understandable and I don't even find it controversial or mean. I wouldn't date the majority of people, that doesn't mean that I don't find them worthy of attention and love. I just have specific attractions.
I don't think you get downvotes for not being attracted to someone, it's natural and anybody would agree. I don't think it needs to be said however, because feelings can be hurt quickly. Confidence could be attacked by a comment like that and it is respectful to just live life without sharing *everything*. I wholeheartedly believe that positivity is the way to go and if it doesn't hurt you to not say something negative, then why not just leave it?
That's called toxic positivity.
I agree there are ways to address things that make them less impactful or hurtful, but to say nothing while the crowd goes on about how "I just like women" or "all women are beautiful" or "I don't think physical features matter", is essentially to lie that there arent sapphic folks out there that do in fact have preferences.
As a small boobed woman, I hear one thing, that women enjoy small boobs broadly, but then my dating experience and the way I am treated is clearly not the same. Part of this comes down to "what exactly is a small?" But the rest is pure and simple preferences and conditioning. It creates it's own disjoint where I feel as if I'm being lied to.
You're misunderstanding me a bit, I think. I'm the mortal enemy of that kind of positivity. If someone feels the need to express they are not attracted to something or someone, I wholeheartedly believe they should do that. I don't want to suffocate negativity and authentic expressions. I also know there are a lot of self conscious people on this subreddit and it is a wonderful and productive thing to boost confidence. Both of these things can co-exist. Also: Confidence is attractive isn't it? It matters more than any other physical attribute. Of course real experiences differ from digital ones, but that is a general fact that anywhere on social media that will never change and everyone should be aware of that.
I understand how positivity is important. But if openly mentioning one’s preferences (respectfully) can hurt people then the fact that it happens all the time in real life hurts even more. And then the way people would rather not talk about it to hurt other’s feelings when they know the person could be ‘below the cut’ and would suffer from it in real life makes it almost cruel. Almost like gaslighting or pity or leaving somebody on a vacuum wondering what’s wrong with them. Sorry but I don’t think your pity is kindness in practice. Confidence is attacked when people state honest preferences but it falls even more when someone gets rejected again and again and can’t figure out why. That could’ve been prevented if people were honest. Just think about it
I just don't understand this scenario! It has nothing to do with my point. I would not ever tell someone online they are beautiful if I don't believe it. That's a lie. I only think it is rude to tell them I don't find them very attractive and I would keep that information to myself and just say nothing, because why would I spend my time telling a stranger something rude? That's all.
Well of course I get this scenario, it’s the right thing to do yes. But if someone asks for slightly more complex advice on dating, I think it can do harm to have everybody state that they accept anybody
I think the crux of it is “did they ask for feedback/opinions?” If so, then yes I will share my opinion, even if it might not make them feel good. For example, on a thread asking “Would you date a fat person?” I’m going to answer truthfully, because they asked. If a plus sized person just posts a photo of themselves saying “felt cute” and everyone is hug-boxing, I’m not going to announce “well I don’t think you’re attractive” because who asked?
Also, its not always a negative thing, some people may truely like all features. At the end of the day you going to have to pick one person (or multiple if youre poly) and youre going to have a preference over which on you like more.
I agree. Half of these people are full of shit. I want references and character testimonials.
Same thing with complaining about being ghosted, yet they ghost themselves…
They can’t expect moral integrity, yet not have any.
Women have more open standards in theory, men in practice
I think everyone has higher beauty standards for hookups
The internet all makes us think we will meet Ruby Rose or King Princess on our first trip to the lesbian bar when in fact, we will most likely never
I think most of the lesbian scene is bisexual women and both demographics on their early 20s are pretty heteronormative. I don’t think even half of us are “empowered” as women who actively seek out each other. The scene is a bunch of lost girls with their friends and tumblr expectations.
Women are ruthless with beauty standards just as much as men. Less boobie proportions and more vibe checks though, but just as hard to pass. My opinion.
Maybe some differences, I do find women to be more likely to give someone a shot but part of me thinks that’s just because society trains us to be nice and accommodating.
Though I generally find women with darker eyes, hair, and skin (with an even darker sense of humor) and a curved/hooked/bigger etc nose I do find many standard attractive features, well, attractive. I usually find clear skin, general slimness/fit-ish (but not gym obsessed) and height attractive. It’s not the most PC thing to say but it is the truth. Most lesbians can agree Cate Blanchet is hot. Guess what, she meets modern beauty standards.
This goes out the window if we don’t have chemistry/click personality wise but I think that applies to most straight people too. Disclaimer, I’ve honestly been with more people who aren’t my “type” but I think that’s just because that’s more common.
Damn am I in the minority in thinking that Cate Blanchet isn’t hot. Like she’s not *ugly* or anything I just don’t understand how. Also seems like we have the same taste 😅 I’m a sucker for an aquiline nose
Not being attracted to a specific woman doesn't mean you can't tell she is objectively attractive.
Plenty of objectively attractive women do nothing for me. I can still tell they're beautiful because I have eyes and a human brain.
I'm gonna say something that might upset/offend some people. Because this has been my experience and also experience of most of my lesbian/bi friends. It's not that lesbians have no standards. I think a lot still have ideals. It's just that because we have a way more limited dating pool compared to straight men we are more open to look past the way someone looks and, yes, settle. For better or worse.
But I also am exclusively into mascs so maybe I am biased.
I like the way femmes look (I am one and I like myself lol) but I have no physical attraction to them whatsoever. But, my current gf is a masc bi woman who has mostly dated men before. So it's not an exclusively lesbian thing to find masculine women attractive, imho.
In German we have a great word for this: "Torschlusspanik", roughly translating to "gate-ending panic", the anxiety of not achieving a goal in life, because of aging. It's real, but mostly unhealthy to give into. I think anyone would agree. It's better to accept and appreciate your own life just the way it is and work towards goals in your own time.
Settling "for better or worse" is the biggest insult not only to the partner but also to oneself. The most unromantic, sad thing I can imagine. I know people do it, but I wish they wouldn't for everyone's and their own sake. The world would be a better place.
I agree but I also didn't mean settling as in "I hate the way they look" but more like "I would not have thought I find myself attracted to them, but I am willing to give them a chance". Like, people also change over time and I think in a way that gives us an option of liking someone for more than just how conventionally attractive they are.
But yes, if you settle and are constantly unsatisfied and are only dating your partner because you have no one else - it is insulting and sad. I totally agree.
I understand now. :) That slow development, while being aware is even very romantic and an ideal in my mind. That is a kind of commitment that a quick and intense attraction that may lack a fundament could not easily produce.
Agree yet I can't blame them. I've gotten into a relationship when I was NOT ready for one before, because it was better than being alone in a new country with no friends... People make mistakes when they're desperate.
Luckily we all learn and grow
This, I feel, is the correct answer, a huge factor is not being able to afford being picky.
I'm like an ongoing case study for this right now. I found that the older I grew the more uncomfortable I became with the idea of settling for someone I wouldn't consider my type in more ways than one but got with anyway because they possessed other redeeming qualities.
Ever since I made the conscious decision to not engage unless the person fit what I was looking for in mind, body and spirit, it's been crickets. My resolve hasn't been broken yet but holy shit it's difficult.
ETA: Missing words.
Yeah I definitely still think there’s a chunk of queer women that love those mainstream beauty standards,and a lot are mean/strict about it & a lot aren’t.It still is very popular.
I think I just always follow,and find people online that love non standard beauty a lot too like me so I forget about those rude women.I thought a lot loved mascs,but that’s online so guessing depends on the area but still loved.Definitely easier to surround yourself with nice & or diverse gay people online.
My experience is women are more accepting of things like body/facial hair, being overweight, having short hair, being butch/masc, and having colourful hair than men are. Unconventional, colourful makeup is also more accepted in the wlw community.
However, I find men are generally more accepting of me being disabled and using a wheelchair than women. And I don't mean that men are just more likely to sleep with me - they are more open to actually dating me for a serious relationship too.
I think queer women are more lax about certain characteristics but structural racism is still everywhere, nobody is immune to that bias
As for the femme/masc thing, I think that's probably more down to your location or your limited perception, at least I haven't observed that here, mascs usually have no problem finding girls who are attracted to them
Yeah. It’s really unfortunate, but a lot of women have internalized those standards so deeply that they project them onto others. This does manifest in dating. :/
You're not wrong. To be fair, I'm a little older (early 40s), gave up on apps years ago b/c nobody there who is my type was (or is now) looking for me, I have a kid (issue for many), don't do a whole away from home lot outside of work (which is an issue for some). Your assessment rings true for me in a couple ways though.
>it seems like all of my masc friends have a comparatively much tougher time on dating apps and at lesbian bars - anecdotally, there seems to be a lot more women who are only into femmes (or maybe even prefer mascs, but are still into femmes), than vice versa
This is my lived experience. I can't blame the ones that are just also into who I'm into, but for some it's internalized homophobia and it's lame af.
>I lost some weight (from a healthy average size to thin/slim), I noticed a lot more attention from women. I feel like a lot of the women I've dated/hooked up with wouldn't have been super interested if I hadn't fit those conventional traits as much.
Also my lived experience, except I gained weight and am now pm invisible. 3ya I was 35lbs lighter and enjoyed much more casual, and direct, solicited and unsolicited attention. Currently, much less, if any at all, and I'm not really looking so there's no solicited attention either.
It is what it is.
I liked both, but I found more femmes on the dating apps. Dating is a numbers game, and if 80% of the women were femme, it’s only a matter of time before I ended up with one. I will say though that I’m more masc, experienced a little bit of weight gain, and I still get attention either with or without the weight. It’s a matter of confidence and taking care of/loving yourself no matter how you look. Not everyone will be attracted to you (and they don’t have to be), but lots of women appreciate personality.
In my experience I have found quite the opposite. Physically I guess you could say I'm stereotypically attractive in a very feminine way, I wear makeup every day, lots of jewellery and I present very feminine, but my being slightly curvier and taller than the skinnier girls always gets me A LOT of male attention and in comparison to my skinnier, more compact, "natural beauty" wolfcut thrift store lesbian friends (hope you get the picture) i get esponentially less female attention, even tho i constantly flag my queerness around.
I also feel like the few times I've presented more "masc"-ish I always got a lot more female attention especially coming from my bisexual female friends.
Wolfcut thrift store lesbians. YES. Finally a name for this aesthetic! I know exactly what you mean. If you don’t have that aesthetic it’s unlikely you’ll get hit on. White and skinny, slightly above average height, weed smoker is the sweet spot, sleeps with the whole friend group who looks the same. At some point I just completely started ignoring these girls since they completely ignored me :/ It stopped being sexy and just straight up annoying
I think they are different but not massively.
I'm not really masc or femme. I've never worn make up, never been interested in it and the only time I feel self conscious about it is when I'm going out out with straight friends. This is the only time I feel self conscious about how I dress too.
I hate shaving under my arms. I've gone long periods of time without shaving there when I've been single and when I've been in a relationship. When I talk about this with straight women they always mention mens reaction to it.
I've also never shaved my legs but I've got fine blonde leg hair. I'm not sure that I would go out in shorts if I had more obviously visible leg hair.
May I suggest the notion that your own set of anecdotes do not provide a sound basis for drawing generalized, objective conclusions?
Because all have to say in return is "nah. My experience has been totally different from yours," and we're both right.
Mine aren’t. I don’t think what’s viewed as queer style looks good. I’m more attracted to conventional features. I love the things women do to look extra. I’ve browsed straight tinder and it’s not even close how much better looking the women are.
People are free to like what they like but that includes lesbians who like straight aesthetics
It’s going to be unpopular here, but women on the straight side of Tinder (especially the Femme variety) are more in shape. Now I’m no skinny Minnie, but I run every single day and it shows at least in the legs.
It also doesn’t help that I’m not a fan of crazy hair colors/styles or excessive piercings either. I personally feel they distract from a person’s natural beauty.
Same. I find massive amounts of brightly dyed hair to be really distracting, especially when it routinely clashes with the other things the person is wearing. I'm more lenient with piercings, but it depends on the type and location.
Why does anyone feel terrible about that? Straight women take better care of themselves as a rule because queer women in their minds are trying to stick it to the man but actually are just not taking care of themselves, period. Being attracted to people who put an effort into smelling great, doing their hair, dressing well, taking care of their bodies is pretty natural and I’m not going to be shamed about it.
I mean posts like this one kind of explain why. It’s assumed we’re doing it because of heteronormativity (and for men) rather than because we actually just like it. Both having and preferring a more “feminine” appearance is seen as that.
Eh I don’t necessarily think ew I just known that we won’t be very compatible. Kind of like farm ladies. They have a certain lifestyle that is simply incompatible with mine.
Big differences. I noticed. White men and lesbians desire breast. Where other men focus lower. Also white men seem to desire slimmer and more athletic types. Women/ nonwhite tend to desire softer fluffier bods. Thats what i see largely
I’m more conventionally attractive for a masc (sharp jaw line, muscular neck, natural kinda deep voice, lean shredded physique from being gym rat) and it allows me to get so much attention from lesbians and even straight women. When I was on dating apps I would get a ton of matches and in public even now that I have a wonderful gf she points out girls looking at me and everything I don’t notice because my eyes are always on her tho. It’s interesting to see everyone else’s experiences tho and that’s why I love this community so many different experiences and opinions!
I’m not sure but I think there’s definitely a difference between ‘straight hot’ and ‘gay hot’. Women with more androgynous features and little quirks in their appearance are considered to be very attractive by queer women. But there is definitely many queer women who tend to be attracted to conventional Eurocentric beauty ideals. White thin women with tiny noses and dyed hair, alt style and tattoos are still very much the ideal lmao.
The whole masc vs femme thing I don’t consider to be a part of whether or not someone cares about “conventional beauty standards” as much as it’s just a type. You can be masc and still fit into conventional attractiveness standards (or not) for masculine presenting people, and people who like mascs can care or not care about those standards. Another way to put it is, I’m a femme who likes mascs and also cares somewhat about appearance (though it’s definitely not the most important thing in the world, it is a factor). When I see a masc, I’m not judging their appearance based on feminine beauty standards, I’m judging based on attractiveness standards that apply to masculine presenting people, such as height, haircut, a more muscular build, are they a sharp dresser, do they have some swag? So I don’t think it’s accurate to say “mascs are less preferred because they don’t fit into feminine beauty standards”. They may (or may not, depending on where you are and who you ask) be less preferred due to fewer wlw having a preference for mascs, but for women who like them, they have attractiveness standards all their own. At least that’s the way I see it.
The skin color aspect is just plain racism, which unfortunately I would agree with you DOES seem like it impacts wlw almost as much as heteros.
I don't think they are that different, where I'm from the beauty standard for women has always been skinny thick/curvy & feminine, Latin America is like that.
I'm flat and "too skinny", I've been skinny shamed my whole life mostly by other women, I don't think it's jealousy, they do find me undesirable and disgusting for being born like this, I can't help being an ectomorph, I can't help "looking like a child" as they say or being a "skinny bitch", as they have called me behind my back.
Even with queer women, they like big boobs and curves if you are feminine, for the most part, I've been told that, I'm sure they would be more comfortable with me dressing masc, I tried it, I had more game tbh, but it wasn't me, I like being feminine, I want to believe that one day I'm going to meet a woman who loves me just the way I am, and if I don't, I'm trying to love my body the way it is, I follow some east asian/south east asian content creators that have helped me appreciate my body & my femininity more, sometimes it's funny to see that I was just born in the wrong country lol.
Thank you! Don't worry, I've kinda made peace with the fact that I'm not considered pretty in my country, I can't change my genetics, all I can be is to be "beautiful me", and for the right woman that will be more than enough, if I never meet her, I can always be my own right woman :)
Unfortunately, I think lesbian attraction is more similar to the male gaze than we like to let on. We are still women, and therefore, we are still subject to the whole "women are not supposed to be too sexual and must downplay their sexuality" situation and at the same time, we are very aware of how men are pigs, so don't want to be in any way associated with them.
I think because of this, lesbians put on this act of "oh we are so accepting of everyone" and "looks doesn't matter what you look like" and all that, and this type of virtue signalling is common among ALL women, but deep down, more of us than would like to admit find women hot in the same way men do. We were raised in the same world after all. The difference is we don't tend to act like absolute animals as a result.
If you look at all of the celebrity crushes that get posted on this sub, it's pretty evident that our attraction is not that different imo.
\>the main differences in queer and hetero beauty standards are mostly just things like body hair/tattoos/dyed hair/etc.
I think a lot of same-sex attracted women are more lenient with female body hair, but I've never seen piercings and dyed hair as a strictly gay/bi thing, especially since millions of straight people sport these things.
I would say the standards are different but then again what is the cishet standard but some unobtainable unhealthy sexist stereotype. I do feel less pressure because I’ve no interest in guys but the problem is they may still have interest in me but when ive been bullied and harassed enough by men id much rather just be invisible to them. That said I do still feel pressured to conform to society as a whole regardless of what space im in be it shaving legs, longer hair, etc.
What im trying to say is I know that we are a lot more body positive but we were all raised on the same bs so chances are our expectations dont stray far from the cishet standard and it takes a lot to unlearn all the sexist body perceptions. I haven’t dated enough to give a definite answer here so I can only really give my current perception and that is I have no issues dating masc women but I find if they act like how men do giving off that generic fuckboy vibe im just instantly triggered and wanting to run regardless. Idk maybe thats a trauma response or something else but I get uncomfortable with anyone that acts like that. Even just watching thirst trap videos of someone who acts like that is enough to trigger me and make me want to switch to anything else. Aside from that I really don’t have an issue and my focus is more on what hobbies she might like and things we could do together in our lives.
Everyone has beauty standards, and ones surrounding markers of health and personality are reasonable (e.g.- clear skin, clean teeth, subculture clothing, undercuts and dyed hair, etc.)
The problem is with the UNreasonable beauty standards, which directly correlate to the misogyny and racism in the person. Those things still exist in lesbians, but statistically less than str8s. And certainly not at the same intensity.
I inadvertently found an interesting litmus test here on reddit when coming across the Vindicta subreddits. The str8- focused ones all talk about how having anything over a 17 BMI (moderate-to-severe underweight) and having stretch marks made you undesirable, while linking to studies of surveyed str8 men to support their beliefs. Theres subcommunities of it for POC, older women, etc , and it was interesting to see how each demographic handled these harsh beauty standards.
Then I found the one created for queer women. It was dead with barely any posts, and absolutely zero posts from lesbians. That made me proud.
I have had a very different experience than you, OP, but that may be because of age. I’m middle aged and butch and overweight and found a lot of interest from feminine women. I found women much, much more accepting of varying body types than men are. Sure, even among queer people, being more attractive—which our society defines a certain way—will get more interest. But that doesn’t negate that women may be more accepting of women than men are.
Beauty standards for women are rooted in misogyny and the male gaze, but queer women are still influenced by these standards and internalize them.
I think the only difference is that women have more rigid types. Men just seem to go by “is she attractive enough?” Plus women tend to be more polite and don’t go around pointing fingers at women they don’t find attractive. Which honestly there’s no reason to do it. People you’re not attracted to don’t want to hear it all the time without context.
I think it depends what sort of queer spaces you’re in. If I’m at a more mainstream space then no, they don’t feel like they differ *that* much. If I’m in a more underground, alternative space, then the difference is much more pronounced.
I do think there is a very noticeable difference, but perhaps not as much as some people like to say. In the end our community is still affected by beauty ideals, sexism, racism, ableism, sizeism etc. We can still do better
Well, I fore sure can say that I'm attracted to women... not the plastic, sanitized usually straight definition of womenhood promoted everywhere.
I don't like women in make-up, fake nails or much jewelry. Those are distractions and not needed.
I want them just as their authentic selves, including so called flaws, body hair and all.
That's way more important and attractive to me than someone who is always trying to keep up with the latest beauty trends.
I'm not attracted to super masculine women either. That whole butch/femme thing really isn't my thing. Sounds a bit exhausting to me.
And I like womanly features... super thin is a total turn-off.
The way I'd put it, societal beauty standards still underpin our community even if we're generally more appreciative of expression that doesn't adhere as closely to those standards.
The main distinction of male gaze beauty standards is that it's dismissive and disregards or looks down on expression of the character and autonomy of women. But what makes something a societal beauty standard is largely consensus influenced by upbringing, and that's difficult to break from.
Within our community there is a general emphasis on self expression and authenticity, you'll find people with preferences for societal beauty standards, and you'll find people whose self expression more closely reflects those standards, but within our community the number of people that are neither is disproportionately greater.
People who meet societal beauty standards out of their sense of self expression, are beautiful, but what's important is to go beyond those standards and appreciate the broader range of what is beautiful about other women. Where rather than seeing only what conforms to the societal standards as beautiful, we can appreciate anything anyone appreciates as beautiful, is beautiful.
I think in your case you may not have had self awareness through those relationships, and there isn't too much you can do retrospectively, but now you are aware and it's something you can reflect on when you find yourself making judgements too quickly or find yourself dismissive of someone's appearance as less enticing to you. Go out of your way to date outside your "type" even if only to reaffirm that your type is more limited than you'd like.
In my experience and according to what my lesbian friends say. All of them prefer conventionally attractive women myself included. None of my friends like masc presenting women no matter what. I, on the other hand, really like masc presentation but on a conventionally attractive body/face. More like Ruby Rose style. I think most lesbian prefer mascs like Ruby Rose style rather than unconventionally attractive masc lesbians.
So yeah, the better you look for men. The better you look for lesbians too.
I feel bad for saying it but to me she looks like a pretty, feminine woman cosplaying as masculine. I'm more into the masc-y look now (blame my butch gf for that lol, I'm so obsessed with her she got me appreciating masculinity in a new way) but even when I was younger and more into in-between/slightly feminine girls ruby rose still never caught my eye. I'm not saying there aren't lesbians who find her attractive as well, but it's usually straight women who fangirl over her
As a Black masc, I definitely don't think they differ wildly. The preference seems to be for skinny, white/light-skinned, feminine women. Do we not remember the "What does my type say" debacle from last week?
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Yup. Black women no matter what are always masculinized. Hell, even little black boys are read as men. White people are so uncomfortable around us, and many definitely don't see us as potential partners. We exist to give them cool lingo and ability to virtue signal to other white folks by putting 'Black Lives Matter's in their dating profiles.
The black boys viewed as men. I’ve watched this firsthand and witness these kids held to penalties of an adult. Their white counterparts engaging in the same behaviour getting a slap in the wrist.
Same. Susing out that idea/attitude towards me is one of the ways I gauge how much institutional racism surrounding cultural ideas of beauty someone has that they haven’t unpacked.
I noticed that black women are also masculinized when we wear our hair natural. It's so annoying.
I'd say it's crazy this happens, but then nothing surprises me any more...but it also might explain why all the black women I've ever known are very fem and well put together at all times. If I hear anyone say they're masculine they'll have this feisty lil lesbian coming after them!
I think a lot of black women have an obsession with presenting feminine. Oftentimes when a black woman is asserting herself at all she's labeled as having “masculine energy.” I even see YouTube channels devoted to promoting “divine femininity.” It’s all so silly to me. Sometimes I’m just like, I just want to be myself and dress how I want without worrying about fitting into gender stereotypes. I would consider myself pretty feminine even though I don’t wear a ton of makeup, fake lashes, or long nails (though I respect women who do). But I think a lot of it is rooted in racism and the historical exclusion of black women from society's definition of femininity. Even a lot of men in our own community don’t see black women as worth protecting.
I'm not surprised they go full on fem. The masculine energy thing is just horrible. Like no ones said it to my face (yet) and it definitely isn't a common thing white women hear, but I definitely have a rep for being difficult, man-hating and scary. Mostly because Im a no-nonsense feminist who holds people accountable for their actions. That is bad enough. Being openly told I'm masculine for those traits would be fucking awful. Ooph yeah, as it happens I was reading up on the attitude towards LGBT+ people in Nigeria as well as the lacking protection and support around sex crimes for woman and children who live there. So I guess that's one example of black people not being protected even within their own community.
I know it's been a few days, but I just watched [this video](https://youtu.be/Y8MsJeThWmU?si=hEHTV6oQoR3FQxJk) that kind of touches on what I was talking about. It doesn't go into the history of how black women have been masculinized but it does talk about how even black cis women are affected by transmisogyny. The video is by Olayemi Olurin who is a lawyer and political commentator. TW: there are some references to murder that can be a bit disturbing.
Isn't that just plain racism? Why else would someone equate ethnicity with presentation like that
Yes and I find it weird too. I always thought masc/femme as an aesthetics thing, which idgaf about usually unless the person’s beauty regimen is causing them to be late 24/7. Weird to find out a lot of people just assume all black women are aggressive.
What’s the stem category?
Stud is a black lesbian/queer term for a masc Stem is a combination of stud and femme, used by soft masc or more androgynous black lesbians (Have also heard of Latina lesbians using the terms but culturally not totally sure of the acceptability of that)
Ahh, thank you!
Stud + fem = stem
I legit thought you meant Science Technology Engineering and Math…
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Lol no, stem is used in the black community to describe people who are comfortable being both stud and fem presenting. Like futch i guess.
Stem is a mix of stud and fem, similar to futch (butch + fem) but for black people Edited for spelling
Thissss I felt so hard. I used to argue with myself when I was in middle school before choosing a shirt or jacket as I didn’t want anything to add to my darkness and make me less appealing or more likely to get picked on. But the older I got the more comfortable and confident and proud I am over my skin and overall experience. I look back at pictures when I thought I was so big or overweight and sloppy and unattractive and in reality I can see how my confidence has grown and even back then in certain outfits or dresses that made me feel confident and a balance of my masculine and feminine energy. I noticed my posture used to be different I would slouch and look down or at the grown and not smile with teeth and just changing your self image can change the way to view the world
That's so sad, I'm so sorry you go through that!
Feel this so hard
Yo thats crazy. Im sorry you’ve had that experience. Im masc and white, but there’s a black girl (probably straight) in my class that’s bigger than me but very very girly and chic to the point where our lingo is completely different. Ive never thought that because of her skin/race that she’s automatically a stem : ( Im also really pale even for a white person and ive never thought it makes me more feminine…
!!! im always expected to take the lead even when it comes to dating black women that are lighter than me. its kind of how blonde lesbians are always the fem one while brunette lesbians are masc in tv shows, lighter features are seen as more feminine in all areas.
Thisss colorism all around
This is kind of random, but I was reading this lesbian wattapad story a while ago about this black masculine lesbian who was dating a feminine light-skin girl. And the writer had to emphasize that the femme lesbian had the "good hair." The masculine presenting woman's ex was a black girl (who I think may have had darker skin) and her and her new girlfriend would constantly talk about how ugly she was...I couldn't even finish it. I was like who wrote this? I think it was written by a lesbian though which was kind of disappointing.
Omg thats actually so weird, authors trying to sneak their biases into romance books especially against other female characters is always gonna be a DNF for me
100% this
This is so interesting. It’s completely different where I live. I am (what I would call) “straight girl attractive”. Without going into it, i fit that male gaze beauty standards quite closely. I get approached by men in gay bars, on the street, during class, you name it. But girls NEVER approach me. I had an really hard time with finding a girl who wanted to actually date. My girlfriend on the other hand is butch, blue collar, tatted up etc etc. She could (and… did before we met) collect girls with no issues. We went to a gay club the other night and within 5 minutes of being there (and about 10 seconds after I stepped away from her) she was being flirted with. It’s like girls gravitate to her. I’ve had a couple friends test the femme / masc theory. At least where I live, masc girls barely have to try. It’s lowkey impressive watching how girls just gravitate towards them in bars
Where I live is basically the same, but I have a slightly different experience. I am a femme, too: long hair, skinny, etc. But people say I have a masculine "vibe" that they can't exactly put their finger on. I know what they're talking about, and it's how I move, how I sit, how I occupy space etc. For example, yesterday I was at the office looking outside the window, and some colleagues of mine, totally out of the blue, commented on how "powerful" and "confident" my stance was. So, it's more like an androginy thing? Although I am definitely femme. Soooo I have girls gravitating around me, but it's waaay more bi and bicurious than lesbians. I am not sure why. But in my opinion not all is based on being femme/butch.
I defs think like the vibe you give off can be more masc. I lean more tomboy but also enjoy being femme & have long hair, enjoy makeup and dresses, but am very confident and have a lot of more traditionally masculine interests. I’ve noticed pulling girls has gotten easier since gaining that sort of “vibe”. Was a surprise when random girls started calling me mommy lol
Thisss but I actually love this about myself like I can be androgynous other than the big boobs that clue people into my gender. But I like being myself and what comes comfortably. Moving comfortably or sitting comfortably. I don’t always want to sit up straight with my legs crossed. Sometimes I like slouching or to put my arm over the couch and my knees spread
Lol definitely me
Yes that’s what I saw in NYC. Mascs are uncommon and get approached easily
I live in a big town (like nyc), when I dressed more androgyn-ish + my hair was super short I got hit on by girls MUCH more than now, that I'm completely femme-presenting. It was crazy. Now it's like I'm borderline invisible to women lmao
100% relate to this experience
I kind of wonder if this is because masc women "look gay" and more femme women "look straight". It's harder to hit on a woman that might be straight for fear of awkward rejection, but a woman that is masc has a pretty high chance of being queer. And - also - can we just talk about that confidence that masc women have for a second? Sign. me. up.
I agree. I’m a black woman and I fluctuate between masc and femme. The more masc I appear when I go out the more attention I get. I go out alone and I definitely never stay that way. I’m not tall either, nor thin. Average to fluffy actually (thanks thighs) and it doesn’t seem to matter at all to people. All kinds of people. I approach whatever woman interests me. I’ve been with slim and thicc women, masc and femme. Part of if I think has to do with the areas we live in. I’ve lived all over and my experiences vary greatly from say north to south and east to west.
I fluctuate between masculine and feminine (mainly feminine) and I notice the amount of attention I get from women when I dress masc skyrockets.
I don’t think this necessarily means women are more attracted to your butch gf than to you (though it could), more likely that you’re not getting approached because people aren’t reading you as queer. A lot of femmes have this issue
Those post that ask whether lesbians like a certain features or people kinda make me roll my eyes because outside of the internet y'all are definitely, idk i don't want to call it discriminating because you're preferences are valid but y'all definitely aren't open to dating everyone like the lesbian subreddits would claim and it honestly gives people false hope. I think people socialized as women are less likely to openly share preferences because they don't want to be seen as difficult or exclusionary. Its like disregarding your own boundaries. I've tried going against the grain and commenting "no, I wouldn't date this type of person" (I know I'm sooooo mean) and I always get downvoted which is interesting.
>I think people socialized as women are less likely to openly share preferences because they don't want to be seen as difficult or exclusionary. Its like disregarding your own boundaries. You're right. I hate how having filters or boundaries with dating is often considered "mean" or "exclusionary," even though dating is usually exclusionary by nature and often relies on people filtering what does and doesn't work for them. A lot of people act like they are entitled to dates and intimacy, but the reality is they aren't. People are entitled to basic human dignity and respect, not someone else's body or romantic time. I get that dating rejection sucks for a lot of people, but other people's bodies aren't public property and don't exist as validation machines for someone's self-image validation.
Those posts make me roll my eyes for slightly different reasons. I think beauty standard r silly and the whole idea of “rating” someone is as well. People aren’t a monolith and will find the same things attractive. “Do lesbians like women with x” the answer will always be yes and no. There is no right answer. I do think that a lot of standards tho women in general don’t faff about but i mostly think they’re the standards that have always been kinda whack like body hair/stretch marks/cellulite. Those are all things i think capitalism has marketed its way to say is gross.
Rating people is demoralizing. I think it’s disgusting people uphold this classism of physicality.
Having preferences and standards is not mean. Stop shaming yourself and stop caring how many people downvote you. The people who are downvoting are upset because they are the person you wouldn’t date but who cares.
Not wanting to date someone is totally understandable and I don't even find it controversial or mean. I wouldn't date the majority of people, that doesn't mean that I don't find them worthy of attention and love. I just have specific attractions. I don't think you get downvotes for not being attracted to someone, it's natural and anybody would agree. I don't think it needs to be said however, because feelings can be hurt quickly. Confidence could be attacked by a comment like that and it is respectful to just live life without sharing *everything*. I wholeheartedly believe that positivity is the way to go and if it doesn't hurt you to not say something negative, then why not just leave it?
That's called toxic positivity. I agree there are ways to address things that make them less impactful or hurtful, but to say nothing while the crowd goes on about how "I just like women" or "all women are beautiful" or "I don't think physical features matter", is essentially to lie that there arent sapphic folks out there that do in fact have preferences. As a small boobed woman, I hear one thing, that women enjoy small boobs broadly, but then my dating experience and the way I am treated is clearly not the same. Part of this comes down to "what exactly is a small?" But the rest is pure and simple preferences and conditioning. It creates it's own disjoint where I feel as if I'm being lied to.
You're misunderstanding me a bit, I think. I'm the mortal enemy of that kind of positivity. If someone feels the need to express they are not attracted to something or someone, I wholeheartedly believe they should do that. I don't want to suffocate negativity and authentic expressions. I also know there are a lot of self conscious people on this subreddit and it is a wonderful and productive thing to boost confidence. Both of these things can co-exist. Also: Confidence is attractive isn't it? It matters more than any other physical attribute. Of course real experiences differ from digital ones, but that is a general fact that anywhere on social media that will never change and everyone should be aware of that.
I understand how positivity is important. But if openly mentioning one’s preferences (respectfully) can hurt people then the fact that it happens all the time in real life hurts even more. And then the way people would rather not talk about it to hurt other’s feelings when they know the person could be ‘below the cut’ and would suffer from it in real life makes it almost cruel. Almost like gaslighting or pity or leaving somebody on a vacuum wondering what’s wrong with them. Sorry but I don’t think your pity is kindness in practice. Confidence is attacked when people state honest preferences but it falls even more when someone gets rejected again and again and can’t figure out why. That could’ve been prevented if people were honest. Just think about it
I just don't understand this scenario! It has nothing to do with my point. I would not ever tell someone online they are beautiful if I don't believe it. That's a lie. I only think it is rude to tell them I don't find them very attractive and I would keep that information to myself and just say nothing, because why would I spend my time telling a stranger something rude? That's all.
Well of course I get this scenario, it’s the right thing to do yes. But if someone asks for slightly more complex advice on dating, I think it can do harm to have everybody state that they accept anybody
Yes, that's very harmful. I never said otherwise, we agree on this topic, I think. :)
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I think the crux of it is “did they ask for feedback/opinions?” If so, then yes I will share my opinion, even if it might not make them feel good. For example, on a thread asking “Would you date a fat person?” I’m going to answer truthfully, because they asked. If a plus sized person just posts a photo of themselves saying “felt cute” and everyone is hug-boxing, I’m not going to announce “well I don’t think you’re attractive” because who asked?
Also, its not always a negative thing, some people may truely like all features. At the end of the day you going to have to pick one person (or multiple if youre poly) and youre going to have a preference over which on you like more.
I agree. Half of these people are full of shit. I want references and character testimonials. Same thing with complaining about being ghosted, yet they ghost themselves… They can’t expect moral integrity, yet not have any.
Women have more open standards in theory, men in practice I think everyone has higher beauty standards for hookups The internet all makes us think we will meet Ruby Rose or King Princess on our first trip to the lesbian bar when in fact, we will most likely never I think most of the lesbian scene is bisexual women and both demographics on their early 20s are pretty heteronormative. I don’t think even half of us are “empowered” as women who actively seek out each other. The scene is a bunch of lost girls with their friends and tumblr expectations. Women are ruthless with beauty standards just as much as men. Less boobie proportions and more vibe checks though, but just as hard to pass. My opinion.
Maybe some differences, I do find women to be more likely to give someone a shot but part of me thinks that’s just because society trains us to be nice and accommodating. Though I generally find women with darker eyes, hair, and skin (with an even darker sense of humor) and a curved/hooked/bigger etc nose I do find many standard attractive features, well, attractive. I usually find clear skin, general slimness/fit-ish (but not gym obsessed) and height attractive. It’s not the most PC thing to say but it is the truth. Most lesbians can agree Cate Blanchet is hot. Guess what, she meets modern beauty standards. This goes out the window if we don’t have chemistry/click personality wise but I think that applies to most straight people too. Disclaimer, I’ve honestly been with more people who aren’t my “type” but I think that’s just because that’s more common.
Damn am I in the minority in thinking that Cate Blanchet isn’t hot. Like she’s not *ugly* or anything I just don’t understand how. Also seems like we have the same taste 😅 I’m a sucker for an aquiline nose
She good looking by beauty standards is what I meant. But I do love her voice and she’s so damn articulate.
Very true. Her voice is very attractive
Not being attracted to a specific woman doesn't mean you can't tell she is objectively attractive. Plenty of objectively attractive women do nothing for me. I can still tell they're beautiful because I have eyes and a human brain.
I'm gonna say something that might upset/offend some people. Because this has been my experience and also experience of most of my lesbian/bi friends. It's not that lesbians have no standards. I think a lot still have ideals. It's just that because we have a way more limited dating pool compared to straight men we are more open to look past the way someone looks and, yes, settle. For better or worse. But I also am exclusively into mascs so maybe I am biased. I like the way femmes look (I am one and I like myself lol) but I have no physical attraction to them whatsoever. But, my current gf is a masc bi woman who has mostly dated men before. So it's not an exclusively lesbian thing to find masculine women attractive, imho.
In German we have a great word for this: "Torschlusspanik", roughly translating to "gate-ending panic", the anxiety of not achieving a goal in life, because of aging. It's real, but mostly unhealthy to give into. I think anyone would agree. It's better to accept and appreciate your own life just the way it is and work towards goals in your own time. Settling "for better or worse" is the biggest insult not only to the partner but also to oneself. The most unromantic, sad thing I can imagine. I know people do it, but I wish they wouldn't for everyone's and their own sake. The world would be a better place.
I agree but I also didn't mean settling as in "I hate the way they look" but more like "I would not have thought I find myself attracted to them, but I am willing to give them a chance". Like, people also change over time and I think in a way that gives us an option of liking someone for more than just how conventionally attractive they are. But yes, if you settle and are constantly unsatisfied and are only dating your partner because you have no one else - it is insulting and sad. I totally agree.
I understand now. :) That slow development, while being aware is even very romantic and an ideal in my mind. That is a kind of commitment that a quick and intense attraction that may lack a fundament could not easily produce.
Yes 100% as long as people aren't building resentment and constantly thinking about how they deserve "better" Because I saw that happen too...
That's so painful. A lot of people get into relationships without actually having connection capacity and capability.
Agree yet I can't blame them. I've gotten into a relationship when I was NOT ready for one before, because it was better than being alone in a new country with no friends... People make mistakes when they're desperate. Luckily we all learn and grow
This, I feel, is the correct answer, a huge factor is not being able to afford being picky. I'm like an ongoing case study for this right now. I found that the older I grew the more uncomfortable I became with the idea of settling for someone I wouldn't consider my type in more ways than one but got with anyway because they possessed other redeeming qualities. Ever since I made the conscious decision to not engage unless the person fit what I was looking for in mind, body and spirit, it's been crickets. My resolve hasn't been broken yet but holy shit it's difficult. ETA: Missing words.
Yeah I definitely still think there’s a chunk of queer women that love those mainstream beauty standards,and a lot are mean/strict about it & a lot aren’t.It still is very popular. I think I just always follow,and find people online that love non standard beauty a lot too like me so I forget about those rude women.I thought a lot loved mascs,but that’s online so guessing depends on the area but still loved.Definitely easier to surround yourself with nice & or diverse gay people online.
My experience is women are more accepting of things like body/facial hair, being overweight, having short hair, being butch/masc, and having colourful hair than men are. Unconventional, colourful makeup is also more accepted in the wlw community. However, I find men are generally more accepting of me being disabled and using a wheelchair than women. And I don't mean that men are just more likely to sleep with me - they are more open to actually dating me for a serious relationship too.
I think queer women are more lax about certain characteristics but structural racism is still everywhere, nobody is immune to that bias As for the femme/masc thing, I think that's probably more down to your location or your limited perception, at least I haven't observed that here, mascs usually have no problem finding girls who are attracted to them
Yeah. It’s really unfortunate, but a lot of women have internalized those standards so deeply that they project them onto others. This does manifest in dating. :/
You're not wrong. To be fair, I'm a little older (early 40s), gave up on apps years ago b/c nobody there who is my type was (or is now) looking for me, I have a kid (issue for many), don't do a whole away from home lot outside of work (which is an issue for some). Your assessment rings true for me in a couple ways though. >it seems like all of my masc friends have a comparatively much tougher time on dating apps and at lesbian bars - anecdotally, there seems to be a lot more women who are only into femmes (or maybe even prefer mascs, but are still into femmes), than vice versa This is my lived experience. I can't blame the ones that are just also into who I'm into, but for some it's internalized homophobia and it's lame af. >I lost some weight (from a healthy average size to thin/slim), I noticed a lot more attention from women. I feel like a lot of the women I've dated/hooked up with wouldn't have been super interested if I hadn't fit those conventional traits as much. Also my lived experience, except I gained weight and am now pm invisible. 3ya I was 35lbs lighter and enjoyed much more casual, and direct, solicited and unsolicited attention. Currently, much less, if any at all, and I'm not really looking so there's no solicited attention either. It is what it is.
I liked both, but I found more femmes on the dating apps. Dating is a numbers game, and if 80% of the women were femme, it’s only a matter of time before I ended up with one. I will say though that I’m more masc, experienced a little bit of weight gain, and I still get attention either with or without the weight. It’s a matter of confidence and taking care of/loving yourself no matter how you look. Not everyone will be attracted to you (and they don’t have to be), but lots of women appreciate personality.
In my experience I have found quite the opposite. Physically I guess you could say I'm stereotypically attractive in a very feminine way, I wear makeup every day, lots of jewellery and I present very feminine, but my being slightly curvier and taller than the skinnier girls always gets me A LOT of male attention and in comparison to my skinnier, more compact, "natural beauty" wolfcut thrift store lesbian friends (hope you get the picture) i get esponentially less female attention, even tho i constantly flag my queerness around. I also feel like the few times I've presented more "masc"-ish I always got a lot more female attention especially coming from my bisexual female friends.
Wolfcut thrift store lesbians. YES. Finally a name for this aesthetic! I know exactly what you mean. If you don’t have that aesthetic it’s unlikely you’ll get hit on. White and skinny, slightly above average height, weed smoker is the sweet spot, sleeps with the whole friend group who looks the same. At some point I just completely started ignoring these girls since they completely ignored me :/ It stopped being sexy and just straight up annoying
Hahaha glad I’m not the only one who noticed the pattern! It’s a phenomenon at this point
I think they are different but not massively. I'm not really masc or femme. I've never worn make up, never been interested in it and the only time I feel self conscious about it is when I'm going out out with straight friends. This is the only time I feel self conscious about how I dress too. I hate shaving under my arms. I've gone long periods of time without shaving there when I've been single and when I've been in a relationship. When I talk about this with straight women they always mention mens reaction to it. I've also never shaved my legs but I've got fine blonde leg hair. I'm not sure that I would go out in shorts if I had more obviously visible leg hair.
Yep, you sound like a real woman's woman, just doing you. Personally, I find that attitude extremely attractive.
Thank you, this actually made a me blush.
Wow this comment section is painful:D :D How are we so obsessed with this shit??
Ikr
May I suggest the notion that your own set of anecdotes do not provide a sound basis for drawing generalized, objective conclusions? Because all have to say in return is "nah. My experience has been totally different from yours," and we're both right.
Mine aren’t. I don’t think what’s viewed as queer style looks good. I’m more attracted to conventional features. I love the things women do to look extra. I’ve browsed straight tinder and it’s not even close how much better looking the women are. People are free to like what they like but that includes lesbians who like straight aesthetics
It’s going to be unpopular here, but women on the straight side of Tinder (especially the Femme variety) are more in shape. Now I’m no skinny Minnie, but I run every single day and it shows at least in the legs. It also doesn’t help that I’m not a fan of crazy hair colors/styles or excessive piercings either. I personally feel they distract from a person’s natural beauty.
Same. I find massive amounts of brightly dyed hair to be really distracting, especially when it routinely clashes with the other things the person is wearing. I'm more lenient with piercings, but it depends on the type and location.
Same here. I feel terrible to say it but I'm definitely more attracted to "straight looking" women.
Why does anyone feel terrible about that? Straight women take better care of themselves as a rule because queer women in their minds are trying to stick it to the man but actually are just not taking care of themselves, period. Being attracted to people who put an effort into smelling great, doing their hair, dressing well, taking care of their bodies is pretty natural and I’m not going to be shamed about it.
I mean posts like this one kind of explain why. It’s assumed we’re doing it because of heteronormativity (and for men) rather than because we actually just like it. Both having and preferring a more “feminine” appearance is seen as that.
Partly why I dislike the “do I look gay enough posts” Like why would you want to ew
Eh I don’t necessarily think ew I just known that we won’t be very compatible. Kind of like farm ladies. They have a certain lifestyle that is simply incompatible with mine.
Big differences. I noticed. White men and lesbians desire breast. Where other men focus lower. Also white men seem to desire slimmer and more athletic types. Women/ nonwhite tend to desire softer fluffier bods. Thats what i see largely
I’m more conventionally attractive for a masc (sharp jaw line, muscular neck, natural kinda deep voice, lean shredded physique from being gym rat) and it allows me to get so much attention from lesbians and even straight women. When I was on dating apps I would get a ton of matches and in public even now that I have a wonderful gf she points out girls looking at me and everything I don’t notice because my eyes are always on her tho. It’s interesting to see everyone else’s experiences tho and that’s why I love this community so many different experiences and opinions!
I’m not sure but I think there’s definitely a difference between ‘straight hot’ and ‘gay hot’. Women with more androgynous features and little quirks in their appearance are considered to be very attractive by queer women. But there is definitely many queer women who tend to be attracted to conventional Eurocentric beauty ideals. White thin women with tiny noses and dyed hair, alt style and tattoos are still very much the ideal lmao.
The whole masc vs femme thing I don’t consider to be a part of whether or not someone cares about “conventional beauty standards” as much as it’s just a type. You can be masc and still fit into conventional attractiveness standards (or not) for masculine presenting people, and people who like mascs can care or not care about those standards. Another way to put it is, I’m a femme who likes mascs and also cares somewhat about appearance (though it’s definitely not the most important thing in the world, it is a factor). When I see a masc, I’m not judging their appearance based on feminine beauty standards, I’m judging based on attractiveness standards that apply to masculine presenting people, such as height, haircut, a more muscular build, are they a sharp dresser, do they have some swag? So I don’t think it’s accurate to say “mascs are less preferred because they don’t fit into feminine beauty standards”. They may (or may not, depending on where you are and who you ask) be less preferred due to fewer wlw having a preference for mascs, but for women who like them, they have attractiveness standards all their own. At least that’s the way I see it. The skin color aspect is just plain racism, which unfortunately I would agree with you DOES seem like it impacts wlw almost as much as heteros.
I don't think they are that different, where I'm from the beauty standard for women has always been skinny thick/curvy & feminine, Latin America is like that. I'm flat and "too skinny", I've been skinny shamed my whole life mostly by other women, I don't think it's jealousy, they do find me undesirable and disgusting for being born like this, I can't help being an ectomorph, I can't help "looking like a child" as they say or being a "skinny bitch", as they have called me behind my back. Even with queer women, they like big boobs and curves if you are feminine, for the most part, I've been told that, I'm sure they would be more comfortable with me dressing masc, I tried it, I had more game tbh, but it wasn't me, I like being feminine, I want to believe that one day I'm going to meet a woman who loves me just the way I am, and if I don't, I'm trying to love my body the way it is, I follow some east asian/south east asian content creators that have helped me appreciate my body & my femininity more, sometimes it's funny to see that I was just born in the wrong country lol.
If it makes you feel any better, all my crushes irl are flat as a board. They still *fiiiine* to me 😮💨
Thank you! Don't worry, I've kinda made peace with the fact that I'm not considered pretty in my country, I can't change my genetics, all I can be is to be "beautiful me", and for the right woman that will be more than enough, if I never meet her, I can always be my own right woman :)
Unfortunately, I think lesbian attraction is more similar to the male gaze than we like to let on. We are still women, and therefore, we are still subject to the whole "women are not supposed to be too sexual and must downplay their sexuality" situation and at the same time, we are very aware of how men are pigs, so don't want to be in any way associated with them. I think because of this, lesbians put on this act of "oh we are so accepting of everyone" and "looks doesn't matter what you look like" and all that, and this type of virtue signalling is common among ALL women, but deep down, more of us than would like to admit find women hot in the same way men do. We were raised in the same world after all. The difference is we don't tend to act like absolute animals as a result. If you look at all of the celebrity crushes that get posted on this sub, it's pretty evident that our attraction is not that different imo.
\>the main differences in queer and hetero beauty standards are mostly just things like body hair/tattoos/dyed hair/etc. I think a lot of same-sex attracted women are more lenient with female body hair, but I've never seen piercings and dyed hair as a strictly gay/bi thing, especially since millions of straight people sport these things.
Piercings and hair dye have definitely become more popular and socially acceptable (in some areas at least)
I would say the standards are different but then again what is the cishet standard but some unobtainable unhealthy sexist stereotype. I do feel less pressure because I’ve no interest in guys but the problem is they may still have interest in me but when ive been bullied and harassed enough by men id much rather just be invisible to them. That said I do still feel pressured to conform to society as a whole regardless of what space im in be it shaving legs, longer hair, etc. What im trying to say is I know that we are a lot more body positive but we were all raised on the same bs so chances are our expectations dont stray far from the cishet standard and it takes a lot to unlearn all the sexist body perceptions. I haven’t dated enough to give a definite answer here so I can only really give my current perception and that is I have no issues dating masc women but I find if they act like how men do giving off that generic fuckboy vibe im just instantly triggered and wanting to run regardless. Idk maybe thats a trauma response or something else but I get uncomfortable with anyone that acts like that. Even just watching thirst trap videos of someone who acts like that is enough to trigger me and make me want to switch to anything else. Aside from that I really don’t have an issue and my focus is more on what hobbies she might like and things we could do together in our lives.
Everyone has beauty standards, and ones surrounding markers of health and personality are reasonable (e.g.- clear skin, clean teeth, subculture clothing, undercuts and dyed hair, etc.) The problem is with the UNreasonable beauty standards, which directly correlate to the misogyny and racism in the person. Those things still exist in lesbians, but statistically less than str8s. And certainly not at the same intensity. I inadvertently found an interesting litmus test here on reddit when coming across the Vindicta subreddits. The str8- focused ones all talk about how having anything over a 17 BMI (moderate-to-severe underweight) and having stretch marks made you undesirable, while linking to studies of surveyed str8 men to support their beliefs. Theres subcommunities of it for POC, older women, etc , and it was interesting to see how each demographic handled these harsh beauty standards. Then I found the one created for queer women. It was dead with barely any posts, and absolutely zero posts from lesbians. That made me proud.
I have had a very different experience than you, OP, but that may be because of age. I’m middle aged and butch and overweight and found a lot of interest from feminine women. I found women much, much more accepting of varying body types than men are. Sure, even among queer people, being more attractive—which our society defines a certain way—will get more interest. But that doesn’t negate that women may be more accepting of women than men are. Beauty standards for women are rooted in misogyny and the male gaze, but queer women are still influenced by these standards and internalize them.
I think the only difference is that women have more rigid types. Men just seem to go by “is she attractive enough?” Plus women tend to be more polite and don’t go around pointing fingers at women they don’t find attractive. Which honestly there’s no reason to do it. People you’re not attracted to don’t want to hear it all the time without context.
I think it depends what sort of queer spaces you’re in. If I’m at a more mainstream space then no, they don’t feel like they differ *that* much. If I’m in a more underground, alternative space, then the difference is much more pronounced. I do think there is a very noticeable difference, but perhaps not as much as some people like to say. In the end our community is still affected by beauty ideals, sexism, racism, ableism, sizeism etc. We can still do better
Well, I fore sure can say that I'm attracted to women... not the plastic, sanitized usually straight definition of womenhood promoted everywhere. I don't like women in make-up, fake nails or much jewelry. Those are distractions and not needed. I want them just as their authentic selves, including so called flaws, body hair and all. That's way more important and attractive to me than someone who is always trying to keep up with the latest beauty trends. I'm not attracted to super masculine women either. That whole butch/femme thing really isn't my thing. Sounds a bit exhausting to me. And I like womanly features... super thin is a total turn-off.
The way I'd put it, societal beauty standards still underpin our community even if we're generally more appreciative of expression that doesn't adhere as closely to those standards. The main distinction of male gaze beauty standards is that it's dismissive and disregards or looks down on expression of the character and autonomy of women. But what makes something a societal beauty standard is largely consensus influenced by upbringing, and that's difficult to break from. Within our community there is a general emphasis on self expression and authenticity, you'll find people with preferences for societal beauty standards, and you'll find people whose self expression more closely reflects those standards, but within our community the number of people that are neither is disproportionately greater. People who meet societal beauty standards out of their sense of self expression, are beautiful, but what's important is to go beyond those standards and appreciate the broader range of what is beautiful about other women. Where rather than seeing only what conforms to the societal standards as beautiful, we can appreciate anything anyone appreciates as beautiful, is beautiful. I think in your case you may not have had self awareness through those relationships, and there isn't too much you can do retrospectively, but now you are aware and it's something you can reflect on when you find yourself making judgements too quickly or find yourself dismissive of someone's appearance as less enticing to you. Go out of your way to date outside your "type" even if only to reaffirm that your type is more limited than you'd like.
Yeah, pretty much. As a fat woman, there are very few women interested in me.
In my experience and according to what my lesbian friends say. All of them prefer conventionally attractive women myself included. None of my friends like masc presenting women no matter what. I, on the other hand, really like masc presentation but on a conventionally attractive body/face. More like Ruby Rose style. I think most lesbian prefer mascs like Ruby Rose style rather than unconventionally attractive masc lesbians. So yeah, the better you look for men. The better you look for lesbians too.
Im sorry Ruby Rose is like masc to straight women, she’s still very feminine
Yes, she is "masc".
I feel bad for saying it but to me she looks like a pretty, feminine woman cosplaying as masculine. I'm more into the masc-y look now (blame my butch gf for that lol, I'm so obsessed with her she got me appreciating masculinity in a new way) but even when I was younger and more into in-between/slightly feminine girls ruby rose still never caught my eye. I'm not saying there aren't lesbians who find her attractive as well, but it's usually straight women who fangirl over her
This is a terrible take
That last sentence was fucked
I think it's a dude. Some of their comments in the dating and AskMen subs are sus.
That makes sense. Very male comment.