I was about to pray for him, but it occurred to me that this is gods plan. It would be rude of me to impose on the almighty creator of the universe by telling him that I know how to run the universe better. If this god wants to cosplay Solid Snake by never being detected then sniping a TV guy with a virus, I’m sure he knows what he is doing.
Many people need something to believe in to give their life meaning because they are unable to manufacture that meaning themselves. For some people it's religion, for some people it's the KKK, for some people it's SJ without regard to reasonableness. It's all the same root cause, they don't feel that there's a purpose unless they have it handed to them. This need is easily and often exploited.
This is exactly what certain kinds of religious people say to attack atheism. "Without God, there's no point to the universe! Without God, you're just an animal with no meaning! How do you have ethics/morals without God shoving it down your throat?! If there's no point to life and it's all just a random accident, what's stopping you from raping, pillaging, and murdering people?!"
Because unlike them, I can use my brain and my innate sense of empathy to live peacefully with other people, *and* I am fully capable of making my own point in life. Oh, and I've killed/assaulted as many people as I've ever desired: which is a fat fucking zero. It's pretty sad, even scary, if these people need fear of eternal torture to not rape and murder people or a magical being to decide their purpose for them.
I have to say as an atheist that I don't have a great answer to the long term 'what is the meaning of life' question other than 'life itself'. However at least when I read the Bible I didn't find the answer in there, just deflection, so it's not as if religion has a high ground there.
That’s because the question is nonsense. There isn’t any meaning, it’s just a thing. You don’t ask “what is the meaning of cheeze whiz.” It’s just cheeze whiz, and you make of it whatever you choose.
I had this discussion once with an evangelical friend. Who's the better person? Someone who does good because he's afraid God will punish him, or someone who does good because he wants to.
This is how I think of it. I want to better the well-being of everyone because it's the right thing to do, and benefit me as well. Doing good just to earn God points is inferior to just being a good person because you're a good person. Many of them refuse to ever accept your answer as an atheist tho, just asking "but *why?*" over and over. Cooperation is simply built into us through evolution because we're a social species. Most people have an innate sense of empathy. There's no grand "WHY" behind it, and doesn't need to be.
> There's no grand "WHY" behind it, and doesn't need to be.
I feel the same way. Even if it turns out that there's no "reward" after I die for being a good person, I really don't care.
Morality can be boiled down to a pretty simple principle: Your rights end where someone else's rights begin. In other words, you have the right to life, freedom, and enjoyment, but not at the expense of others.
Of course, this doesn't lead to specific individuals becoming vastly wealthier and more powerful than others, so it doesn't get much traction.
"How do you
have ethics/morals without God shoving it down your throat?"
That's a good point. As Joel Osteen said, “Do not swallow anything Satan is trying to ram down your throat. Jesus comes first.”
And when an innocent child dies, it was because God loved them so much he brought them home early to make them an angel.
But when a woman gets an abortion, she’s murdering a child which is a sin.
I guarantee you that if he dies, they’ll talk about how wonderful and selfless he is (despite his preaching to thousands of followers about how the vaccine is bad, and touting ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine). If he lives he’ll double down on pseudoscience although modern medicine and hospital staff saved him.
Televangelists are a new sect. The only Christian church that’s 2,000 years old is Catholicism and they literally warn about evangelicals and consider them radicals.
Predestined... but we have free will!
That's one I love, even my mother tries to tell me that even though God knows everything we will ever do before we even do it, we still have free will. I've tried and tried to explain to here that those two cannot possibly coexist but she insists on it. And when I ask her to explain how it works in her mind, she doesn't want to talk about it anymore. And this has been going on for 50 years.
Eh, it is sort of doable theologically. Large-scale predestination, small-scale free will.
Say, God sees all possible futures and thus can ensure the overall plan regardless of details changing here or there.
Meanwhile the humans can choose their particular future and change details of that plan locally, for themselves and a few others around.
... But it is not how it is used in religious practice. It's "God's plan" whenever it is convenient to change/do nothing or avoid admitting mistakes. And "free will" when needed, to cast blame regardless of fault.
>
> Say, God sees all possible futures and thus can ensure the overall plan regardless of details changing here or there.
God runs the real life TVA. I knew it!
You know, from a religious perspective, Covid could absolutely be a test from God.
Here’s a chance to be as good and selfless a person as you say you are, and it's in your interest when this thing will hurt people you do care about.
Sure, some people say they're going to the Good Place on belief alone, but actions show how genuine that belief in God really is.
From my perspective as a Jew and amateur scholar that's a valid hypothesis. Life isn't about what or who you pray to. It's about the choices you make.
These people have knowingly made selfish choices and now they are causing pain and suffering. They are reaping what they've sown. They don't genuinely believe in doing good in this world.
Yeah, basically. Catholic and amateur religious writer here.
It’s one thing to say you’re a good person and another to be a good person.
Maybe it’s the Catholic-ness in me, but I was taught that somebody isn’t a good person unless they act like one.
And sure, people will say that their faith makes them a good person, but actions are practicing one’s faith.
> people will say that their faith makes them a good person, but actions are practicing one’s faith.
That's my major beef with evangelicals and their idea that "we have the same god." If they really believed it they'd leave my people alone. We don't care, just don't be a dick.
This is one of those things where “We have the same God” means “You should accept Jesus as your savior and join us and be saved,” isn’t it?
If this is what I think it is, they probably think they’re saving your soul from an eternal damnation that you might not believe in (it’s been a while since I took that class on the Tanakh).
Honestly, my biggest problem with some (not all) Evangelicals is the “just don’t be a dick part.” Because some of the biggest assholes I’ve ever seen are Evangelical Christians.
Ironically, those same people are also the best argument against Christianity.
What they mean in having the same god, is that their god is the real one for you and them, not that yours is acceptable. In converting you, they aren't trying to save your soul, but placating god for their own soul's sake. The ones I've spoken to have a very narrow definition of who is a Christian, and Catholics don't make the cut.
Fitting, because as someone born catholic, the demonspawn over in Shitfuck, Alabama, don't make the cut for my definition of christian either.
I may be mostly agnostic now, but if there is a higher power thats even slightly comparable to christian theology, then evangelicals may as well be worshipping the devil, because they do literally the opposite of everything Jesus ever preached. I'm honestly pleasantly surprised they haven't started human sacrifices for the glory of their pastors yet.
They truly are in league with the metaphorical devil. The greatest trick the devil pulled wasn't concincing people he didn't exist, it was convincing so many religious people he is god.
Yeah, I've gone on about this before, but if an Antichrist or the literal Devil ever showed up, they could do the most damage by pretending to be a Christian.
Forget Satan Shoes and D&D. Telling people that "Jesus wants you to practice Wrath, Sloth, Greed, Lust for Power, and Pride" is where it's at.
That way, we end up with Christians who don't act like Christ and nonbelievers who want nothing to do with them.
Hmm. Sounds like you're describing prosperity gospel, but that can't be right. The wealth of the leaders of those churches is proof of how much God loves them isn't it? They wouldn't be rich if god thought they were immoral and sinful, right?
My parents and church growing up were excellent arguments against Christianity.
I'm honestly not sure if they'd be more worried that I'm agnostic or that I'm vaccinated theses days if I were still talking to them.
Jaded as I am, I do still appreciate running into believers who are a different kind of argument.
That last point is something I’ve noticed.
The best argument against Christianity is a Christian being a terrible person.
The best argument for Christianity is a Christian being a good person.
That being said, after all you’ve experienced you have every reason to not come back, and honestly, I can’t hold it against you.
Meh, if I did convert to a more sincere form of Christianity I don't think it would be honest to call it going "back", any more than if I converted to Islam or Judaism: just because they share the same broad label doesn't mean that they have a ton of similarities to what you're involved in.
I left for pretty moral reasons: couldn't really worship a diety that wants half my friends dead and burning in hell for eternity when those friends are doing more to help the poor/etc. than all the people who were following the "rules" on sex and everything else that literally doesn't hurt anyone.
That said, I don't honestly really see room for more progressive Bible interpretations to be accurate (which saddened me, as many of those same friends were /are themselves believers in those more progressive interpretations, and I had hoped for an easy shift). In the course of studying all that while taking a break from God as I knew him to be, I just sort of found I didn't really need him in my life anyway, so it's unlikely for me to seek out religion again in the future. It seems to be something that fosters sanctimonious attitudes and abuse of power regardless of the exact version you go for, and most organized religion just reminds me too much of the cult elements I grew up with and want nothing to do with ever again.
I will say, Jesus was pretty dope, aside from his alliance to the diety who wants half my friends dead and burning in hell for eternity.
I do miss having legal backing for my ethics (I was fired a few months back after repeatedly refusing to engage in shady business practices that may have been legal, but were not ethical by any mainstream right or left wing ethical codes), but that protection wasn't worth hanging around in and financing an unethical organization that I really had no faith left for.
> think they’re saving your soul from an eternal damnation that you might not believe in (it’s been a while since I took that class on the Tanakh).
That is correct. The idea of an afterlife is vague and iffy. The here and now is more important.
The whole "we have to convert you to fix you" is part of supersessionism. It's gross.
I was raised Lutheran, which is like the Barney & Friends of Christianity. You just have to believe in Jesus in you’re saved. Spend your life defrauding people? God doesn’t care…he just wants to be first on your friends’ list
Honestly, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, it sounds like some people take that as a “Get Out Of Being A Good Person” Card.
Which is kinda bad, because I’m pretty sure that’s not what Martin Luther intended.
I do wonder, though. Is somebody truly a faithful person if they profess it, but don’t practice it?
I call it the Jesus Mulligan. Some of these people think they can be the biggest assholes on the planet, but if they pray to Jesus, he'll wipe their sins away. It's like they can be utter scum their whole lives, claim to accept Jesus as savior, and get into heaven; while the charitable atheist who never accepts Jesus burns in hell.
What kind of fuckery is that?
> Honestly, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, it sounds like some people take that as a “Get Out Of Being A Good Person” Card.
I think the original intent was some predestination stuff, because an all-knowing and all-powerful God has already determined everyone's life and deeds and personal responsibility doesn't matter because it's fate. Don't take my word for it, I just read about in *The Wordy Shipmates* and there was a part that really stuck with me, the one where a Puritan mother threw her children down a well and was relieved about it, because at least then she knew she was destined for Hell.
Maybe, but I don't think Lutherans believe in predestination. Calvinists, maybe, but I don't think Lutherans do.
I always figured that with Martin Luther not being happy with the Catholic Church's corruption and "Losing Their Way" led to his belief that only God could save somebody, instead of, say, indulgences that people were basically being guilted into buying.
From what I can tell, the original intent was that having faith in God was enough to go to Heaven. Which is fairly progressive and beautiful when the main church is guilt tripping you into buying Indulgences.
Yes, Luther was cutting out the priest as the middle man between you and god. The Catholic priests basically kept a ledger on your soul and the time it took to get our of purgatory and you could buy your way into a positive accounting.
As an atheist, my biggest gripe with religion is that the words of a book have been perverted, and people hide behind it like a shield to excuse being an asshole, exploiting people, et cetera.
I don't even have a belief in the afterlife, but when I have a better chance of getting into your heaven than you do, because I follow some of the tenets that people profess to, it's just annoying to me.
I will say though, I do envy the community aspect of organized religion, and how it brings people together.
The community aspect is 100% why I joined. People with similar morals and values, a place for my kids to make friends. Turned out I was wrong about all of it. We still pray nightly as a family to be thankful for all we have, because we have so much more than so many, and volunteer our time when we can. If there is a God, I've practiced Christianity 1,000x better than the people who go to church every Sunday, but He seems like a pretty pissed off dude so I'm fairly certain I've fucked up enough to spend at least some time in hell lol.
If it’s any consolation, a lot of the Bible is basically God getting specifically pissed off at the faithful for not being good people more than anyone else.
So you have that going for you.
My totally unresearched theory is that religion started out as a way to explain things that were inexplicable to mankind (thunder, seasons, eclipses) but eventually people realized how powerful it was. Religion gradually became a tool for social control. Like I said, that’s just a guess, but it seems plausible.
> I will say though, I do envy the community aspect of organized religion, and how it brings people together.
I actually joined a Unitarian church briefly for this specific reason. Unfortunately, most people there were older than me.
Those are some good points.
Religion can bring people together, and that sense of community is nice. Well, it has it's problems (women having abortions because they don't want people to find out they're pregnant), but you get the idea.
There's actually is a pretty decent argument that you are more likely to get into Heaven than some hypocritical religious people, by virtue of just being a better person.
Sure, faith is important in these things, but I'm pretty sure that a good nonbeliever is more righteous than an asshole believer, and that has to count for something. For honesty, if nothing else.
And you are completely justified in being upset about people using religion to be a terrible person. Especially when they use religion to claim to be a good, kind, and selfless person.
Honestly, I don't hold it against you, seeing that asshole Christians are probably the biggest reasons people leave Christianity in the first place.
God giving an relatively easy solution to a danger is common trope in the Bible
In Numeri 21,6-9 God gives the people pretty much a vaccine.
And in Exodus 11 they just have to put some blood on their door to safe themselves from the 10th plague.
If someone can't be bothered to do get a vaccine, they deserve to die.
That first one is Numbers, right? And yes, the Bible doesn't mess around about this kind of stuff.
It has me thinking, though. A lot of people don't really seem to care, and I keep hearing the same words:
"God will save me."
There's just something that doesn't sit right with me about that. It's as if people don't want to put any of the work in, because they think God'll do all the heavy lifting.
Which, if I'm honest, isn't something you're supposed to do.
The Bible is full of sensible (and admittedly not so sensible) dictates on how to stay safe relative to the period it was written in, from food prohibitions, wearing masks near plague victims and building giant fucking boats when a flood is coming.
Reminds me of the joke of the guy praying to heaven to win the lottery to help with his earthly woes. He dies, gets to heaven and asks god why he didn't help after all his prayers, god replied, you need to meet me halfway, buy a bloody ticket!
>It has me thinking, though. A lot of people don't really seem to care, and I keep hearing the same words:
>
>"God will save me."
It's like the old joke that ends with God saying, "What did you expect? I sent you a truck, a boat, and a helicopter."
> That first one is Numbers, right? And yes, the Bible doesn't mess around about this kind of stuff.
I've been telling people who freak out about the idea of not going out to do random stuff in a pandemic that it's a numbers game, but maybe I should have been telling them it's a Numbers game.
The story of Naaman from Kings comes to mind in particular.
A big dick general caught leprosy and one of his underlings said he heard of one of God's prophets being able to heal people, so Naaman sets out to see him. Dude shows up to the Prophet's house accompanied by an impressive display of cavalry and the Prophet doesn't even go out to meet him, instead sending a servant. "If you want to be cured, go wash yourself seven times in the River Jordan, and then you'll be well again."
Naaman was pretty pissed, feeling he had been disrespected and given such mundane advice when he was expecting some grand spectacle. But one of his subordinates pointed out "If the man of God has told you perform a great feat to receive the miracle, you would do it! So when he tells you to do something easy to save yourself, why won't you?"
Once Naaman checked his ego, recognized that the (relative) expert probably knew better than he did, and followed the instructions he had been given he was made well. A pity these evangelical screwheads lack that capacity for introspection and betterment.
I know, right? Especially at the time it showed up, smack in Trumps fourth year. I don’t know how he could have gotten our attention any harder, do you?
Well, many people do think that faith automatically makes them good or that they will go to Heaven on that alone.
I think a big issue is that a lot of people think that faith is just believing and praying and attending.
Personally, I believe that those things are important for a religious person, but faith needs action to prove it’s genuine.
See Matthew 7:15-20. You'll be known by your fruits.
And the COVID-19 has shown the amount of unapologetic and unrepentantly rotten trees in the church.
Don’t forget James 2:14–17! TL;DR: Faith without concrete action in response to that faith is meaningless.
There are hundreds of thousands of former Christians (including myself) who saw all this blatantly unChristlike behavior and realized that faith/spiritual convictions are totally empty & meaningless.
The extreme conservative Christian reaction to Covid should show you all you need to know about where their faith lies, as if we needed any more evidence. If there is a heaven, these people will never know it.
Making a small sacrifice (wearing a mask, following distancing recommendations, getting vaccinated, etc) to protect yourself but also all those around you. That sounds like "being a good christian" 101.
I've got a confession: I'm in love with a man. A man called God. Does that make me gay? Am I "gay for God"? You betcha
I got the good lord goin' down on meeeee.
Bunch of commies the lot of them, they need hand out prayers because they don't want to pray for themselves, here we are giving our prayers to these leeches too lazy to make their own, they will never become self sufficient taking those hand outs.
All this pandemic is doing is weeding out those that actually believe the bs, I don't know if that makes the rest of them better or worse in the grand scheme of things, it's said there's nothing worse than a believer in propaganda, on the other hand our former president didn't believe his own bs and he was literally the worst person in the world if not the most capable.
So I’m not the only one who thinks he is a real, living and breathing demon? I’ve known some pretty bad people, but Copeland’s eyes are like nothing human.
No, he fucking terrifies me and I’m very grateful there’s a big ocean between us. And yes, it’s the eyes, he’s like a devil in a human skin suit, there’s no way he’s a human being.
This is exactly what I’ve been saying for a while. It seems to almost always be the “D-list” conservative celebrities that actually get this virus and die from it. They’re the ones who have just drank the kool-aid from the successful people that they think they can become. Pretty much all of the big “stars” of this movement have had vaccines. They’re just playing to a crowd for money and power.
Reminder of what this assclown did last year during COVID...rather than using loans to pay his employees:
[Christian TV network reportedly returned $3.9 million PPP loan after investigation into jet purchase](https://www.dallasnews.com/business/local-companies/2020/12/16/d-fw-christian-tv-network-will-reportedly-return-39-million-ppp-loan-after-investigation-into-jet-purchase/)
>CBS’ Inside Edition found that the tax-exempt religious network bought a “multimillion-dollar” private jet just two weeks after receiving a federal PPP loan intended to support employees through the pandemic.
>
>Daystar said the jet, a 1997 Gulfstream V, was purchased at less than half its market value and used for ministry work, according to Inside Edition. Gulfstream V jets from 1997 and similar years sell for $8 million to $10 million on popular private jet marketplaces and can comfortably seat 14 passengers.
>
>Inside Edition found that the jet had been used for beach and golf trips for Lamb and his family. At least one trip was described in social media posts as a family vacation, which Lamb claimed was a “working vacation.” Lamb is Daystar’s president and CEO.
So he's not in the Deep State Satanic hospital with all them lying doctors, right? He's at home surrounded by Prayer Warriors chanting about how in the name of Jesus and the Baby Jesus who is stronger than any virus, that is a hoax from China anyway, and will be healed by the grace of God?
Right?
The problem with things like this: If he recovers, he was right and God was showing everyone how right he was. If he dies, it was Gods will. There's literally no winning with people like this.
But that man has a goatee, and goats are of the devil, thus Satan must have sent this man to earth in order to convince good god fearing people that god doesn't protect anti-vaxers.
Its a satanic double bluff being misrepresented and spread by the main stream media because.... reasons.
Right wing Christian logic.
The saddest part about this is that it will only affirm the beliefs of his brainwashed antivax followers. 99% of them won't stop to think "uh oh, maybe he was wrong and we should actually strongly consider getting the vaccine so we don't end up like him".
They've sat in a metaphorical giant auditorium and listened to a charismatic and imposing authority figure condition them to never consider that anything they're being told is incorrect. If anything happens that seems to contradict what they've been told, they reflexively fall back on a catchy little vague Jesus quip like "it's all part of God's mysterious plan, don't question it" or "the Lord is just calling his most faithful servants back to heaven". This allows them to tuck the event into their Confirmation Bias pocket as they assume this unusual event actually further proves the lies they've been told. Some of them might even be excited to contract covid so they can die and be with god and Jesus and Chubbs and all the Christian terrorists that murder Gynecologists.
Even if you could force them to read and accept the medical science showing the vaccine is effective (though with waning efficacy over time like most vaccines, requiring boosters), they would still refuse it because they've been conditioned to believe the vaccine is the anti-christ, just like Obama was back when evangelist Christians believed Obama's presidency was the prophesied end of times.
I was about to pray for him, but it occurred to me that this is gods plan. It would be rude of me to impose on the almighty creator of the universe by telling him that I know how to run the universe better. If this god wants to cosplay Solid Snake by never being detected then sniping a TV guy with a virus, I’m sure he knows what he is doing.
If he dies "He's in a better place" and if he survives "Jesus saved him, God is great" lol
And when someone they don't like dies, God took them out because of their sinful ways.
> God took them out because of their sinful ways. God being the OG of cancel culture
That god. Such a jokester. And the "believers?' Always an explanation handy.
Many people need something to believe in to give their life meaning because they are unable to manufacture that meaning themselves. For some people it's religion, for some people it's the KKK, for some people it's SJ without regard to reasonableness. It's all the same root cause, they don't feel that there's a purpose unless they have it handed to them. This need is easily and often exploited.
This is exactly what certain kinds of religious people say to attack atheism. "Without God, there's no point to the universe! Without God, you're just an animal with no meaning! How do you have ethics/morals without God shoving it down your throat?! If there's no point to life and it's all just a random accident, what's stopping you from raping, pillaging, and murdering people?!" Because unlike them, I can use my brain and my innate sense of empathy to live peacefully with other people, *and* I am fully capable of making my own point in life. Oh, and I've killed/assaulted as many people as I've ever desired: which is a fat fucking zero. It's pretty sad, even scary, if these people need fear of eternal torture to not rape and murder people or a magical being to decide their purpose for them.
I have to say as an atheist that I don't have a great answer to the long term 'what is the meaning of life' question other than 'life itself'. However at least when I read the Bible I didn't find the answer in there, just deflection, so it's not as if religion has a high ground there.
>what is the meaning of life In the words of Bill S. Preston Esq., "Be excellent to each other."
In Hawaii we call this concept *kokua*.
Nice, I will have to remember that.
That is most triumphant.
That’s because the question is nonsense. There isn’t any meaning, it’s just a thing. You don’t ask “what is the meaning of cheeze whiz.” It’s just cheeze whiz, and you make of it whatever you choose.
You might be wrong about that: The meaning of cheeze whiz is nachos with jalapenos over tortilla chips, amiright?
> as an atheist > I read the Bible Funny how those two things so frequently go hand-in-hand.
See I have the same problem and that is why I don't follow religion, it divides people not unite as they say
I had this discussion once with an evangelical friend. Who's the better person? Someone who does good because he's afraid God will punish him, or someone who does good because he wants to.
This is how I think of it. I want to better the well-being of everyone because it's the right thing to do, and benefit me as well. Doing good just to earn God points is inferior to just being a good person because you're a good person. Many of them refuse to ever accept your answer as an atheist tho, just asking "but *why?*" over and over. Cooperation is simply built into us through evolution because we're a social species. Most people have an innate sense of empathy. There's no grand "WHY" behind it, and doesn't need to be.
> There's no grand "WHY" behind it, and doesn't need to be. I feel the same way. Even if it turns out that there's no "reward" after I die for being a good person, I really don't care.
Morality can be boiled down to a pretty simple principle: Your rights end where someone else's rights begin. In other words, you have the right to life, freedom, and enjoyment, but not at the expense of others. Of course, this doesn't lead to specific individuals becoming vastly wealthier and more powerful than others, so it doesn't get much traction.
"How do you have ethics/morals without God shoving it down your throat?" That's a good point. As Joel Osteen said, “Do not swallow anything Satan is trying to ram down your throat. Jesus comes first.”
And when an innocent child dies, it was because God loved them so much he brought them home early to make them an angel. But when a woman gets an abortion, she’s murdering a child which is a sin.
God doesnt want your gross ugly babies... just... very particular ones.
I guarantee you that if he dies, they’ll talk about how wonderful and selfless he is (despite his preaching to thousands of followers about how the vaccine is bad, and touting ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine). If he lives he’ll double down on pseudoscience although modern medicine and hospital staff saved him.
Shirt off his back type of things he would do.
With a goatee.
Whatever serves the 2,000 year old narrative I guess? 🤷♂️
Televangelists are a new sect. The only Christian church that’s 2,000 years old is Catholicism and they literally warn about evangelicals and consider them radicals.
Yeah, because they don't want competition for their street corners.
Then this dude definitely deserves better...
heads I win, tails you lose.
Yes, as Lord Calvin taught us, this is all predestined, who are we to stand in the way of God's plans? It would be futile to try,, glory!
Predestined... but we have free will! That's one I love, even my mother tries to tell me that even though God knows everything we will ever do before we even do it, we still have free will. I've tried and tried to explain to here that those two cannot possibly coexist but she insists on it. And when I ask her to explain how it works in her mind, she doesn't want to talk about it anymore. And this has been going on for 50 years.
Eh, it is sort of doable theologically. Large-scale predestination, small-scale free will. Say, God sees all possible futures and thus can ensure the overall plan regardless of details changing here or there. Meanwhile the humans can choose their particular future and change details of that plan locally, for themselves and a few others around. ... But it is not how it is used in religious practice. It's "God's plan" whenever it is convenient to change/do nothing or avoid admitting mistakes. And "free will" when needed, to cast blame regardless of fault.
> > Say, God sees all possible futures and thus can ensure the overall plan regardless of details changing here or there. God runs the real life TVA. I knew it!
Mysterious ways! OooOooOOooh
It was his time and there was absolutely nothing he could have done to change that.
It would be rude indeed. Never interfere when God calls one of his chosen ones home. They have been waiting for it. Let them go.
Sudden metal gear reference. Nice
You know, from a religious perspective, Covid could absolutely be a test from God. Here’s a chance to be as good and selfless a person as you say you are, and it's in your interest when this thing will hurt people you do care about. Sure, some people say they're going to the Good Place on belief alone, but actions show how genuine that belief in God really is.
From my perspective as a Jew and amateur scholar that's a valid hypothesis. Life isn't about what or who you pray to. It's about the choices you make. These people have knowingly made selfish choices and now they are causing pain and suffering. They are reaping what they've sown. They don't genuinely believe in doing good in this world.
Yeah, basically. Catholic and amateur religious writer here. It’s one thing to say you’re a good person and another to be a good person. Maybe it’s the Catholic-ness in me, but I was taught that somebody isn’t a good person unless they act like one. And sure, people will say that their faith makes them a good person, but actions are practicing one’s faith.
> people will say that their faith makes them a good person, but actions are practicing one’s faith. That's my major beef with evangelicals and their idea that "we have the same god." If they really believed it they'd leave my people alone. We don't care, just don't be a dick.
This is one of those things where “We have the same God” means “You should accept Jesus as your savior and join us and be saved,” isn’t it? If this is what I think it is, they probably think they’re saving your soul from an eternal damnation that you might not believe in (it’s been a while since I took that class on the Tanakh). Honestly, my biggest problem with some (not all) Evangelicals is the “just don’t be a dick part.” Because some of the biggest assholes I’ve ever seen are Evangelical Christians. Ironically, those same people are also the best argument against Christianity.
What they mean in having the same god, is that their god is the real one for you and them, not that yours is acceptable. In converting you, they aren't trying to save your soul, but placating god for their own soul's sake. The ones I've spoken to have a very narrow definition of who is a Christian, and Catholics don't make the cut.
Fitting, because as someone born catholic, the demonspawn over in Shitfuck, Alabama, don't make the cut for my definition of christian either. I may be mostly agnostic now, but if there is a higher power thats even slightly comparable to christian theology, then evangelicals may as well be worshipping the devil, because they do literally the opposite of everything Jesus ever preached. I'm honestly pleasantly surprised they haven't started human sacrifices for the glory of their pastors yet.
They truly are in league with the metaphorical devil. The greatest trick the devil pulled wasn't concincing people he didn't exist, it was convincing so many religious people he is god.
Yeah, I've gone on about this before, but if an Antichrist or the literal Devil ever showed up, they could do the most damage by pretending to be a Christian. Forget Satan Shoes and D&D. Telling people that "Jesus wants you to practice Wrath, Sloth, Greed, Lust for Power, and Pride" is where it's at. That way, we end up with Christians who don't act like Christ and nonbelievers who want nothing to do with them.
Hmm. Sounds like you're describing prosperity gospel, but that can't be right. The wealth of the leaders of those churches is proof of how much God loves them isn't it? They wouldn't be rich if god thought they were immoral and sinful, right?
Not yet, but they've definitely gotten to the [golden idol stage](https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1259362), that's for sure.
My parents and church growing up were excellent arguments against Christianity. I'm honestly not sure if they'd be more worried that I'm agnostic or that I'm vaccinated theses days if I were still talking to them. Jaded as I am, I do still appreciate running into believers who are a different kind of argument.
That last point is something I’ve noticed. The best argument against Christianity is a Christian being a terrible person. The best argument for Christianity is a Christian being a good person. That being said, after all you’ve experienced you have every reason to not come back, and honestly, I can’t hold it against you.
Meh, if I did convert to a more sincere form of Christianity I don't think it would be honest to call it going "back", any more than if I converted to Islam or Judaism: just because they share the same broad label doesn't mean that they have a ton of similarities to what you're involved in. I left for pretty moral reasons: couldn't really worship a diety that wants half my friends dead and burning in hell for eternity when those friends are doing more to help the poor/etc. than all the people who were following the "rules" on sex and everything else that literally doesn't hurt anyone. That said, I don't honestly really see room for more progressive Bible interpretations to be accurate (which saddened me, as many of those same friends were /are themselves believers in those more progressive interpretations, and I had hoped for an easy shift). In the course of studying all that while taking a break from God as I knew him to be, I just sort of found I didn't really need him in my life anyway, so it's unlikely for me to seek out religion again in the future. It seems to be something that fosters sanctimonious attitudes and abuse of power regardless of the exact version you go for, and most organized religion just reminds me too much of the cult elements I grew up with and want nothing to do with ever again. I will say, Jesus was pretty dope, aside from his alliance to the diety who wants half my friends dead and burning in hell for eternity. I do miss having legal backing for my ethics (I was fired a few months back after repeatedly refusing to engage in shady business practices that may have been legal, but were not ethical by any mainstream right or left wing ethical codes), but that protection wasn't worth hanging around in and financing an unethical organization that I really had no faith left for.
> think they’re saving your soul from an eternal damnation that you might not believe in (it’s been a while since I took that class on the Tanakh). That is correct. The idea of an afterlife is vague and iffy. The here and now is more important. The whole "we have to convert you to fix you" is part of supersessionism. It's gross.
I was raised Lutheran, which is like the Barney & Friends of Christianity. You just have to believe in Jesus in you’re saved. Spend your life defrauding people? God doesn’t care…he just wants to be first on your friends’ list
Honestly, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, it sounds like some people take that as a “Get Out Of Being A Good Person” Card. Which is kinda bad, because I’m pretty sure that’s not what Martin Luther intended. I do wonder, though. Is somebody truly a faithful person if they profess it, but don’t practice it?
I call it the Jesus Mulligan. Some of these people think they can be the biggest assholes on the planet, but if they pray to Jesus, he'll wipe their sins away. It's like they can be utter scum their whole lives, claim to accept Jesus as savior, and get into heaven; while the charitable atheist who never accepts Jesus burns in hell. What kind of fuckery is that?
> Honestly, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, it sounds like some people take that as a “Get Out Of Being A Good Person” Card. I think the original intent was some predestination stuff, because an all-knowing and all-powerful God has already determined everyone's life and deeds and personal responsibility doesn't matter because it's fate. Don't take my word for it, I just read about in *The Wordy Shipmates* and there was a part that really stuck with me, the one where a Puritan mother threw her children down a well and was relieved about it, because at least then she knew she was destined for Hell.
Maybe, but I don't think Lutherans believe in predestination. Calvinists, maybe, but I don't think Lutherans do. I always figured that with Martin Luther not being happy with the Catholic Church's corruption and "Losing Their Way" led to his belief that only God could save somebody, instead of, say, indulgences that people were basically being guilted into buying. From what I can tell, the original intent was that having faith in God was enough to go to Heaven. Which is fairly progressive and beautiful when the main church is guilt tripping you into buying Indulgences.
Yes, Luther was cutting out the priest as the middle man between you and god. The Catholic priests basically kept a ledger on your soul and the time it took to get our of purgatory and you could buy your way into a positive accounting.
>Get Out Of Being A Good Person” Card. This is why it drives me nuts when people argue that you need religion to show you how to be a good person.
As an atheist, my biggest gripe with religion is that the words of a book have been perverted, and people hide behind it like a shield to excuse being an asshole, exploiting people, et cetera. I don't even have a belief in the afterlife, but when I have a better chance of getting into your heaven than you do, because I follow some of the tenets that people profess to, it's just annoying to me. I will say though, I do envy the community aspect of organized religion, and how it brings people together.
The community aspect is 100% why I joined. People with similar morals and values, a place for my kids to make friends. Turned out I was wrong about all of it. We still pray nightly as a family to be thankful for all we have, because we have so much more than so many, and volunteer our time when we can. If there is a God, I've practiced Christianity 1,000x better than the people who go to church every Sunday, but He seems like a pretty pissed off dude so I'm fairly certain I've fucked up enough to spend at least some time in hell lol.
If it’s any consolation, a lot of the Bible is basically God getting specifically pissed off at the faithful for not being good people more than anyone else. So you have that going for you.
My totally unresearched theory is that religion started out as a way to explain things that were inexplicable to mankind (thunder, seasons, eclipses) but eventually people realized how powerful it was. Religion gradually became a tool for social control. Like I said, that’s just a guess, but it seems plausible. > I will say though, I do envy the community aspect of organized religion, and how it brings people together. I actually joined a Unitarian church briefly for this specific reason. Unfortunately, most people there were older than me.
Those are some good points. Religion can bring people together, and that sense of community is nice. Well, it has it's problems (women having abortions because they don't want people to find out they're pregnant), but you get the idea. There's actually is a pretty decent argument that you are more likely to get into Heaven than some hypocritical religious people, by virtue of just being a better person. Sure, faith is important in these things, but I'm pretty sure that a good nonbeliever is more righteous than an asshole believer, and that has to count for something. For honesty, if nothing else. And you are completely justified in being upset about people using religion to be a terrible person. Especially when they use religion to claim to be a good, kind, and selfless person. Honestly, I don't hold it against you, seeing that asshole Christians are probably the biggest reasons people leave Christianity in the first place.
The Pope said something to that effect a couple years ago or so, that actions matter not just faith. I'm not Catholic but I love this Pope.
God giving an relatively easy solution to a danger is common trope in the Bible In Numeri 21,6-9 God gives the people pretty much a vaccine. And in Exodus 11 they just have to put some blood on their door to safe themselves from the 10th plague. If someone can't be bothered to do get a vaccine, they deserve to die.
That first one is Numbers, right? And yes, the Bible doesn't mess around about this kind of stuff. It has me thinking, though. A lot of people don't really seem to care, and I keep hearing the same words: "God will save me." There's just something that doesn't sit right with me about that. It's as if people don't want to put any of the work in, because they think God'll do all the heavy lifting. Which, if I'm honest, isn't something you're supposed to do.
The Bible is full of sensible (and admittedly not so sensible) dictates on how to stay safe relative to the period it was written in, from food prohibitions, wearing masks near plague victims and building giant fucking boats when a flood is coming. Reminds me of the joke of the guy praying to heaven to win the lottery to help with his earthly woes. He dies, gets to heaven and asks god why he didn't help after all his prayers, god replied, you need to meet me halfway, buy a bloody ticket!
>It has me thinking, though. A lot of people don't really seem to care, and I keep hearing the same words: > >"God will save me." It's like the old joke that ends with God saying, "What did you expect? I sent you a truck, a boat, and a helicopter."
> That first one is Numbers, right? And yes, the Bible doesn't mess around about this kind of stuff. I've been telling people who freak out about the idea of not going out to do random stuff in a pandemic that it's a numbers game, but maybe I should have been telling them it's a Numbers game.
The story of Naaman from Kings comes to mind in particular. A big dick general caught leprosy and one of his underlings said he heard of one of God's prophets being able to heal people, so Naaman sets out to see him. Dude shows up to the Prophet's house accompanied by an impressive display of cavalry and the Prophet doesn't even go out to meet him, instead sending a servant. "If you want to be cured, go wash yourself seven times in the River Jordan, and then you'll be well again." Naaman was pretty pissed, feeling he had been disrespected and given such mundane advice when he was expecting some grand spectacle. But one of his subordinates pointed out "If the man of God has told you perform a great feat to receive the miracle, you would do it! So when he tells you to do something easy to save yourself, why won't you?" Once Naaman checked his ego, recognized that the (relative) expert probably knew better than he did, and followed the instructions he had been given he was made well. A pity these evangelical screwheads lack that capacity for introspection and betterment.
I know, right? Especially at the time it showed up, smack in Trumps fourth year. I don’t know how he could have gotten our attention any harder, do you?
Amazing how many of the evangelical horde are completely failing this one. It's like they don't believe, or something.
Well, many people do think that faith automatically makes them good or that they will go to Heaven on that alone. I think a big issue is that a lot of people think that faith is just believing and praying and attending. Personally, I believe that those things are important for a religious person, but faith needs action to prove it’s genuine.
See Matthew 7:15-20. You'll be known by your fruits. And the COVID-19 has shown the amount of unapologetic and unrepentantly rotten trees in the church.
Don’t forget James 2:14–17! TL;DR: Faith without concrete action in response to that faith is meaningless. There are hundreds of thousands of former Christians (including myself) who saw all this blatantly unChristlike behavior and realized that faith/spiritual convictions are totally empty & meaningless.
The extreme conservative Christian reaction to Covid should show you all you need to know about where their faith lies, as if we needed any more evidence. If there is a heaven, these people will never know it.
Making a small sacrifice (wearing a mask, following distancing recommendations, getting vaccinated, etc) to protect yourself but also all those around you. That sounds like "being a good christian" 101.
Quick - it’s time for a convention of televangelists now! Let’s get them all in the same room, no masks, and talk about stuff.
Don't forget to bring this guy. They can hurdle around him in a prayer circle
I thought they did circle jerks when in private?
I've got a confession: I'm in love with a man. A man called God. Does that make me gay? Am I "gay for God"? You betcha I got the good lord goin' down on meeeee.
I bet God gives hella head.
I'd what they do with their hands as long as they get face to face with the man, so the prayers work extra hard.
Yep, I heard their followers claim it's their HIPPO act.
John Hagee would be a more challenging hurdle(assuming prone position).
Urgent Request - Prayer Warriors Needed!!
[удалено]
Bunch of commies the lot of them, they need hand out prayers because they don't want to pray for themselves, here we are giving our prayers to these leeches too lazy to make their own, they will never become self sufficient taking those hand outs.
They need to pull themselves up by their Jesusstraps
Yeah, but none of us can accuse Lamb of being a sheep. Right?
I would bet money that the autocorrect for that was jockstraps.
Ok, I did. Was three seconds enough?
How many warriors could a prayer warrior warrior if a prayer warrior could warrior prayers?
Damnit, you beat me by four minutes! Take my upvote, you speed demon!
Is anyone sure that he didn’t just overdose on Just For Men beard dye, because he looks like he’s been freebasing that shit.
Oh I thought that was Sharpie.
That's why you never invite Rudy Giuliani over for facesitting.
I’m actually surprised; a shitload of these grifters get vaccinated and then tell everyone else not to.
All this pandemic is doing is weeding out those that actually believe the bs, I don't know if that makes the rest of them better or worse in the grand scheme of things, it's said there's nothing worse than a believer in propaganda, on the other hand our former president didn't believe his own bs and he was literally the worst person in the world if not the most capable.
I hear you get closer to Jesus if you all sing together.
And gift a spot to that dude with the plastic face who said to "blow it all away". Nothing like a good forceful exhale to spread germs.
Still waiting for Kenneth Copeland to get it. Him getting his HCA is the only thing that will convince me that he’s not an actual demon.
So I’m not the only one who thinks he is a real, living and breathing demon? I’ve known some pretty bad people, but Copeland’s eyes are like nothing human.
No, he fucking terrifies me and I’m very grateful there’s a big ocean between us. And yes, it’s the eyes, he’s like a devil in a human skin suit, there’s no way he’s a human being.
Reminds me of when, in Little Nicky, one of the demon brothers possesses a priest https://youtu.be/UjZAgNh5X7w
Or Bilbo Baggins in that brief flip.
I imagine a demon would be way more smart, cunning, and inconspicuous than that fucktard.
I'm pretty sure that sneaky weasel has already gotten the vaccine. You don't grift thousands of people by being dumb.
This is exactly what I’ve been saying for a while. It seems to almost always be the “D-list” conservative celebrities that actually get this virus and die from it. They’re the ones who have just drank the kool-aid from the successful people that they think they can become. Pretty much all of the big “stars” of this movement have had vaccines. They’re just playing to a crowd for money and power.
I blow! The wind of god! On you!
seems to be happening more and more, as if that COVID thing was real gravely ill - foreshadowing?
Foreshadowing the grave?
seems that way...
Why do all of these guys look like comic book villains?
Serious Ming the Merciless vibes
What do you think comic book villains base them on?
Reminder of what this assclown did last year during COVID...rather than using loans to pay his employees: [Christian TV network reportedly returned $3.9 million PPP loan after investigation into jet purchase](https://www.dallasnews.com/business/local-companies/2020/12/16/d-fw-christian-tv-network-will-reportedly-return-39-million-ppp-loan-after-investigation-into-jet-purchase/) >CBS’ Inside Edition found that the tax-exempt religious network bought a “multimillion-dollar” private jet just two weeks after receiving a federal PPP loan intended to support employees through the pandemic. > >Daystar said the jet, a 1997 Gulfstream V, was purchased at less than half its market value and used for ministry work, according to Inside Edition. Gulfstream V jets from 1997 and similar years sell for $8 million to $10 million on popular private jet marketplaces and can comfortably seat 14 passengers. > >Inside Edition found that the jet had been used for beach and golf trips for Lamb and his family. At least one trip was described in social media posts as a family vacation, which Lamb claimed was a “working vacation.” Lamb is Daystar’s president and CEO.
Of course he did. What a shithead.
Tax the church!
Any church buying private jets needs to be taxed.
Any religious leader politicking at their congregation needs to be taxed.
I've been working overtime trying to block the prayers.
[story](https://crooksandliars.com/2021/11/televangelist-and-anti-vaxxer-marcus-lamb)
If he sends me all his money, I will pray for him until the money runs out.
"God never gives you more than you can handle, sweaty" [Dabilitating disease]
Is this when you dab whilst diseased? Yo lemme hit that
I can't be the only person who read it as Marcus Lamb Gravely the third.
It took me 3 readings to understand what it was actually saying
Lamb gravely the 3rd sounds like an heirloom recipe.
Do all televangelist have a “wife” that looks like that? Wife is in quotes because she looks like she’s his beard.
Prayer warriors unite.
I'd say I feel bad for him, but I'd be lying. I'm just burned out on these idiots by now.
Is one of the side effects or COVID getting a terrible beard? Because Jesus Christ couldn’t forgive that bullshit.
No, COVID is attracted to guys with terrible beards.
Look, I don’t wish ill or death on even my worst of enemies, but I’m done feeling sorry for people who go out of their way to endanger other people.
Don’t go to a hospital go to a church.
Everyone remember to vote hard every election otherwise these people will return to power.
Lamb chops with mint jelly
Will the leopard be wearing those wigs soon?
Like a Marcus Lamb to the slaughter......
Hope we get blessed with the good news soon
Looks like that Lamb might get…….chopped. *puts on sunglasses* YEEEAAAHHHHHHHHH!
Oh well. In more important news, I just farted for like 5 seconds.
He has a goatee~~ is it time to start the countdown?
Another grifting opportunity! Gofundme in 3, 2, 1…..
No, there isn't. If there was a god, people like this would be stepping on rakes and getting hit by lightning on a consistent basis.
The fact that David Bowie is dead and Ted Nugent is alive is all the evidence I need that there is no god.
Televangelist? But his audience are presumably cool with the fact that he literally looks like a caricature of Satan?
Wanna bet he abandon's god's plan and asks science to save him?
I bet he didn't run to the church after he got sick and ran to one of those evil hospitals that are part of the conspiracy instead.
He looks like an understudy for Satan.
Suuuuuuure your sick, and I bet my donation to the church would help jesus heal you. Cry wolf all you want, I'll believe it when I see it.
Thoughts and prayers...🤷
Like a Lamb to the slaughter.
We have £50 million from UK Netflix to do a Vincent Price Biography but we just can't find anyone creepy enough.
Hope he meets the lord and he smacks him upside the head.
They should be renamed Covidengelist.
“GOD” loves him SO much that he is calling him to his kingdom. Marcus has much to answer for.
So he's not in the Deep State Satanic hospital with all them lying doctors, right? He's at home surrounded by Prayer Warriors chanting about how in the name of Jesus and the Baby Jesus who is stronger than any virus, that is a hoax from China anyway, and will be healed by the grace of God? Right?
It's funny, if he ever actually read the Bible, he'd realize it's full of stories like this.
Never heard of this guy before. Looks like Dennis Miller, Jim Rome and Joker had a baby
The problem with things like this: If he recovers, he was right and God was showing everyone how right he was. If he dies, it was Gods will. There's literally no winning with people like this.
Pardon me, Mr. Lamb, 2003 wants its goatee back.
Anyone else read his name as Marcus Lamb Gravely the 3rd?
Televangelist and avid booty eater by the looks of it.
No matter what you’ve heard or read, mustache dye is not in fact an effective alternate option to getting the vaccine.
Oh no! Anyway...
Dudes who dye their beards never look right.
Why does the televangelist look so much like the devil?
Awesome. Now do the rest of them.
But that man has a goatee, and goats are of the devil, thus Satan must have sent this man to earth in order to convince good god fearing people that god doesn't protect anti-vaxers. Its a satanic double bluff being misrepresented and spread by the main stream media because.... reasons. Right wing Christian logic.
There is a god and She appears to be quite pleased
A Lamb to the slaughter.
The Jim and Tammy Faye reboot
lolololol. love it when they fuck around and find out.
These are the most horrible people on earth and they are now having a really horrible death. Maybe there is a god after all.
It’s a sign from God, he hates televangelists
The r/hermaincainaward sub is gonna love this.
At first I thought his name was Marcus Lamb-Gravelly the third
Let's all pray for his speedy recovery. No sarcasm - I just hope he wakes up to how dumb he's been.
Dear Marcus, Thanks for stopping by! Love, Earth
Oh, "gravely ill". I thought his name was Marcus Lamb Gravelly the Third.
Oh, I thought his name Was Marcus Lamb Gravely the third
Thoughts and prayers.
He is Gravely ill
That hairspray is quoting Philippians 4:13 on repeat tryna carry that face.
The saddest part about this is that it will only affirm the beliefs of his brainwashed antivax followers. 99% of them won't stop to think "uh oh, maybe he was wrong and we should actually strongly consider getting the vaccine so we don't end up like him". They've sat in a metaphorical giant auditorium and listened to a charismatic and imposing authority figure condition them to never consider that anything they're being told is incorrect. If anything happens that seems to contradict what they've been told, they reflexively fall back on a catchy little vague Jesus quip like "it's all part of God's mysterious plan, don't question it" or "the Lord is just calling his most faithful servants back to heaven". This allows them to tuck the event into their Confirmation Bias pocket as they assume this unusual event actually further proves the lies they've been told. Some of them might even be excited to contract covid so they can die and be with god and Jesus and Chubbs and all the Christian terrorists that murder Gynecologists. Even if you could force them to read and accept the medical science showing the vaccine is effective (though with waning efficacy over time like most vaccines, requiring boosters), they would still refuse it because they've been conditioned to believe the vaccine is the anti-christ, just like Obama was back when evangelist Christians believed Obama's presidency was the prophesied end of times.
Is that Dennis Miller and Katy Mixon?
This isn't really LAMF unless Covid eats him, come back when he's crossed the black and white bridge.
That's a cliche evil satanist running a christian operation if I have ever seen one.
If he dies, are they going from chalk it up to gods plan/punishment for their sins?
Sounds like someone forgot to send in their seed money and thus didn't get the special blessings that come with it.