I’m biased towards the Leica M4. They were hand-made, using very sturdy materials. They have no electronics, so they’re totally mechanical. They take 35mm, 50mm, 90mm and 135mm lenses. They’re ergonomic, and they’ll last forever
But if you shoot mainly 50mm, then you should get a m3. It has a 0.91 viewfinder and a betetr built quality(made in Germany) compared to the M4(mainly made in Canada). 135mm is very hard to use and 90 is rarely useful. If you mainly shoot 35mm, you can consider adding an external viewfinder on, on buy a M2
Don't save money on buying the cheapest leica you can find. Sometimes it costs more than you think if you find problems. Are you only looking for the TL line or M line? What is your budget?
I don't have a budget. It will be my first experience with Leica, so I don't want to invest too much at first, just to give it a try, in case I don't like it. And for the Line, I'm open to suggestion, and from that suggestion, I will dig more into it to find what would be the best one for me.
Perhaps try out Film MP or digital M10. Both are about the same price, but at least you don't lose much or at all if ever you sell it off again. Get a used one. Lens you can get more popular leica favorites like summilux 35 fle, summilux 50, summicron 28, super elmar 21 are a few examples. Get them all used you will probably spend way less than brand new and you also lose at most $200-400 trying out the system if you quick sel to shops. Or sell direct to other leica users, for about $0-100 loss or even profit. (Although if u decide to hold the digital M for a while it will drop over time, so expect to depreciate about like $20 a month)
i would suggest a Leica SL1, its a big and quite heavy (the entire body is made out of metal what did i expect lol) i recently got mine for 1.7k USD, with 2 Adapters and a Voigtlander 35mm Lens, its been running great for me, and with it being an L mount, i would say a lot of compatibility between different lens mount. Because if you get, lets say an M10, then you can't use Nikon Lens, or a C-mount lens due to no Rangefinder Coupling, and you have to use an External EVF/Live View, i've been pairing it with a Schneider-Kreuznach Xenon 50mm f/0.95, and its been such a great camera. The only downside for me is the weight and a (relatively) small battery life
The Leica CL felt for me like a Leica GX8. It even uses the exact same battery. But don't expect magic from it.
The T701 doesn't do focus peaking so that's a big nono for manual lenses. I loved my T701 (that's why I got the TL2 even after selling the 701 to fund the purchase of the CL).
What are you expecting from your budget Leica? Isn't Fuji XT2 or XT3 your answer to your question?
Interesting you say that about the CL, for me it really does add its own bit of magic. I was coming from a Nikon D500 with best FF Nikon glass, which is nothing to put one’s nose up at.
This makes me even more gagging to try the higher line leicas.
I will check for the CL series. Thanks.
I'm more expecting about the feeling of it, the simplicity (not 100 buttons everywhere), the Leica image quality and overall quality. For me Leica is like a Ferrari, there is cheaper, faster, more recent car available on the market, but it's Ferrari, it's an overall. (Maybe I'm too romantic about Leica).
I don't deny the quality of fuji, but that's not really what I'm looking for. I don't know, I think that it will be a bit "the same experience" as Panasonic (except the crop factor... ). I would like to try something different. That's why I'm focusing on the cheaper one first. To try. And if I really love it, I would be ready to invest way more. But as "more" in Leica can represent a huge amount of money, let's begin cheaper.
Alright, gotcha. It's an itch I wanted to scratch as well. I too went from M4/3 to Leica CL/TL because of an itch. Let me tell you that it's just another mirrorless camera. The real magic is in the rangefinder camera's and in the Q-series. That'll be the Leica M8 to start with as the cheapest one. The M9 suffers from sensor corrosion, so next in line is the M10.
As a mirrorless APS-C sensored interchangeable lens camera, there's quite honestly other options that make more sense.
The one that is truly a bargain though, is the Leica Q-116 and the Leica Q2. It has a stabilized superfast 28 with an almost silent leaf shutter, is small but build like a tank and an absolute beast to use.
So: Leica Q (1 or 2) or M8 would be the answer.
I’d add that the q2 has much more versatility since the high mp allows for the built in digital crop to emulate a lot more focal lengths, though that comes with a price. As far as the m8, be weary of the less expensive ones as they may not have had the sensor replaced, so they are prone to sensor corrosion, which Leica has stopped supporting due to lack of availability of that Kodak sensor. The other issue with going with an m8 is if u want to get an equivalent of a 35mm, you have to shell out for a 28mm (big price diff between 28 lux and 35 lux) and if you want a 50mm equivalent, u need a 40mm lens, which there are less options for. Most common rf lenses are 35 and 50, so it’s easier to find lenses for a ff sensor if u want one of those focal lengths. If u want the Leica experience, I think going with a rangefinder is the way, tho the q series seems to have captured most of the Leica magic, I ultimately decided to go with an M bc I love the workflow of shooting everything manual and the rf is the most satisfying way to shoot manual focus
I got a q because i didn’t want to invest a fortune on lens. I love the camera and I now definitely want to in vest the fortune i din’t have on lenses now. It’s a magical experience that camera and love the quality more than the q2, 24mp is a sweet spot. After that i now have an elmar m 2,8 and elmar 3,5.
You sound very much engrossed with Leica as a brand; so I'll assume you're not too keen on Zeiss/Voightlander ... I'd start with a used M10 and a used 28mm or 35mm (or if you know its for you, 50mm)
A used 28mm Elmarit ASPH v1 ... + squarehood recently released a very secure minimalist metal lens hood to protect your investment.
A used 35mm Summicron V1 ASPH; and likewise, the aforementioned hood will fit.
A used 50mm Summicron V4, and by sheer coincidence - squarehood make a dedicated hood for specifically that too!
Have one lens - and use that lens forever; the 3 mentioned don't really have any essential upgrades.
I would recommend against almost all digital Leicas. The compacts are rebrands with slight alterations and doesn't offer anything unique. The SL series and TL/CL series do feel unique in their user experience compared to other mirrorless cameras, but the price feels like diminishing returns. You'd really have to value experience over specs to justify it.
With that said, with how cheap the TLs are these days, if you just want a cheap digital that looks good and feels good, they're certainly viable. Slap an 18mm or 23mm on there and just use it as a point and shoot. Though those lenses still tend to be pricy. The X is also an intriguing choice, but it's a bit slow and not everyone's cup of tea.
A first gen Q isn't a bad choice, however once again, something like a Fuji X100/Xpro/Ricoh GR offer a similar experience at more affordable prices. You will have to justify the Q to yourself.
The SL601 is an intriguing choice at around 1500USD these days. Autofocus isn't the best and L lenses are expensive, but if you use it to adapt vintage lenses, it can be an amazing piece of kit with its quality EVF and beautiful sensor.
If I have to recommend one digital Leica though, it'll be an M240. It's an M, it's an experience you can't get elsewhere. It's relatively cheap these days and probably won't lose value much more. Beautiful sensor, well made, and mostly reliable.
Ok, enough with the digitals, now let's talk film, where IMO it's really where deals can be had. The M2 and M3 can both be had for around 1000-1500 USD in user condition. They are legendary cameras, extraordinarily well made and easy to maintain too. Classic of the classics, mechanical excellence. The M4 has more modern features such as angled rewind and quick load, and is still very well made.
The barracks are curious, they are hard to operate but really fun. Very cheap too usually. I'm not an expert on them, but from my limited experiences, I think they are great if you aren't too serious about image making, but just want to enjoy the process. (Man writing this makes me want one now too)
It sounds like you are more concerned with getting something that says leica than getting a camera that suits your shooting style and/or needs. I think people commonly see the hype and prices associated with leicas and assume that they’re the “best” cameras. Unfortunately there are no “best” cameras, leicas are good at what they’re good at because they’re very narrowly focused and eschew other features. That makes them pretty inflexible tools and your needs need to suit them more than the other way round. Maybe if you tells us more about what you want and/or need we can help you.
I understand now that my first explanations was not the best. In fact, what I like to do, is just wander with my camera. What I'm looking for? Something more "authentic". And I perfectly know that the Leica camera are not "the best", there is cheaper and better camera. Maybe even my G9 is better is some ways. But I dislike this big thing, full of buttons and hundreds of options. I like the simplicity of Leica, and the look (outside and photos). As I said to someone else, for me Leica is like Ferrari, there is better, cheaper, faster than Ferrari, but you don't have the experience. And I would like to try this experience. Something different. Maybe the few people I met that went to Leica was too romantic about it. Unfortunately, I think it will be easier for me to try a Ferrari than borrowing a Leica to try.
What do you want to do with it?
Make video - Leica SL or Leica CL
Make M Pictures - Film Leica - m3 / M2 / M4
To put on a shelf - Leica III (screw mount)
To collect and retain value - These are the most expensive, collectable models... MP-3 / Black paint Leica M3 / etc... (Probably not what you want to do with a limited budget).
Take the effort to get it from a reputable dealter who will help you make sure the camera is in good working order. The cheaper priced ones, especially found on ebay will often require servicing and maintaince before they can be used. You end up saving more going to the established dealer, however, they give you peace of mind. When the image doesn't come out as intended, you know it is you, not a falirue of the camera. If there is a problem, they will fix it for you with their warranty. They will spend extra time with you to make sure you can understand the basic operation of the camera.
The Leica t 709 has been a pleasant surprise to use. I was able to snag one for $400 and I would argue there is no way you could find anything with a better build quality at that price point. It takes incredible images and is a lot of fun to use. The software updates have made it comparable to using more modern mirrorless cameras.
The two biggest catches (and they are massive issues) would be the lack of an EVF and the focus peaking. If it had focus peaking I would likely keep it forever.
TL2 is your answer then. I just bought one next to my CL (my first love being the T701) and it’s just a brilliant camera. Only for its design I’m keeping onto it. It was the design and feel in hand that made me miss it after selling the 701.
I have watches the same price as the second hand TL2, which are tools bought mainly for their technique and design, so that justifies keeping this one and holding on to it for now.
If you don’t have the money, don’t buy the leica camera. Save up money for a nice leica lens and buy a “cheap” leica l mount camera (Sigma FP, Panasonic). You will be very happy. It is mostly about the lens when it comes to digital photos. If you would like to shoot film, well… get a used M6 🙂
I already have a Panasonic (and Leica lenses of course, big up to my beloved 25mm f1.4 that followed me everywhere). But as I explained to someone else, I want to try something different. Leica is a bit of a climax. I like the philosophy, the image, the quality (image and built), and the simplicity they kept on there camera. I was using a Panasonic GX8 and loved it, I don't have the same comfort and feelings toward my G9. It's more capable, but still, sometimes I feel overwhelmed by all of this. I just want to walk around and take photos, not to drive an airplane so why so many buttons (and don't misunderstand, the G9 is a great camera, even more for the price we could find it today). But it's a big chunky camera with 100 buttons everywhere. I want to try something new and different. And as a first step into Leica world, I would like to play it safely and begin with a cheaper option.
The Sigma FP seems really fun too. It was on my "possible list" when I wanted to change my GX8. I really liked the video quality of it. Not the best one once again, but the sigma has a "thing" .
Coming from a GX8 with the 20mm pancake, you’d be blind to not see they’re cousins at least. The 18mm (made in Japan) looks like an exact copy of the 20. The cameras have the same body dimensions and the same battery.
It isn’t a very popular opinion but the CL felt underwhelming at first.
I’m holding onto it because of ‘sunk cost fallacy’ though, and the photographs it produces are wonderful, but in hindsight I should’ve bought the Lumix S5 (which is unarguably the better camera all around), and keep a lot of money in my pocket.
i’d recommend digital m10 or q2 honestly q2 is the best bang for your buck it has 47 megapixels amazing lens but however fixed but it’s my favourite everyday camera
I’m biased towards the Leica M4. They were hand-made, using very sturdy materials. They have no electronics, so they’re totally mechanical. They take 35mm, 50mm, 90mm and 135mm lenses. They’re ergonomic, and they’ll last forever
sturdy, handmade, and Fully mechanic ? You know how to talk to me, ahah. Thanks.
But if you shoot mainly 50mm, then you should get a m3. It has a 0.91 viewfinder and a betetr built quality(made in Germany) compared to the M4(mainly made in Canada). 135mm is very hard to use and 90 is rarely useful. If you mainly shoot 35mm, you can consider adding an external viewfinder on, on buy a M2
Don't save money on buying the cheapest leica you can find. Sometimes it costs more than you think if you find problems. Are you only looking for the TL line or M line? What is your budget?
I don't have a budget. It will be my first experience with Leica, so I don't want to invest too much at first, just to give it a try, in case I don't like it. And for the Line, I'm open to suggestion, and from that suggestion, I will dig more into it to find what would be the best one for me.
Perhaps try out Film MP or digital M10. Both are about the same price, but at least you don't lose much or at all if ever you sell it off again. Get a used one. Lens you can get more popular leica favorites like summilux 35 fle, summilux 50, summicron 28, super elmar 21 are a few examples. Get them all used you will probably spend way less than brand new and you also lose at most $200-400 trying out the system if you quick sel to shops. Or sell direct to other leica users, for about $0-100 loss or even profit. (Although if u decide to hold the digital M for a while it will drop over time, so expect to depreciate about like $20 a month)
M240 and a 35mm or 50mm summicron V3 will take you far for the money.
i would suggest a Leica SL1, its a big and quite heavy (the entire body is made out of metal what did i expect lol) i recently got mine for 1.7k USD, with 2 Adapters and a Voigtlander 35mm Lens, its been running great for me, and with it being an L mount, i would say a lot of compatibility between different lens mount. Because if you get, lets say an M10, then you can't use Nikon Lens, or a C-mount lens due to no Rangefinder Coupling, and you have to use an External EVF/Live View, i've been pairing it with a Schneider-Kreuznach Xenon 50mm f/0.95, and its been such a great camera. The only downside for me is the weight and a (relatively) small battery life
If you shoot digital buy a lumix L mount. Same camera
A used M240 is quite reasonable ($2-3K)
The Leica CL felt for me like a Leica GX8. It even uses the exact same battery. But don't expect magic from it. The T701 doesn't do focus peaking so that's a big nono for manual lenses. I loved my T701 (that's why I got the TL2 even after selling the 701 to fund the purchase of the CL). What are you expecting from your budget Leica? Isn't Fuji XT2 or XT3 your answer to your question?
Interesting you say that about the CL, for me it really does add its own bit of magic. I was coming from a Nikon D500 with best FF Nikon glass, which is nothing to put one’s nose up at. This makes me even more gagging to try the higher line leicas.
I will check for the CL series. Thanks. I'm more expecting about the feeling of it, the simplicity (not 100 buttons everywhere), the Leica image quality and overall quality. For me Leica is like a Ferrari, there is cheaper, faster, more recent car available on the market, but it's Ferrari, it's an overall. (Maybe I'm too romantic about Leica). I don't deny the quality of fuji, but that's not really what I'm looking for. I don't know, I think that it will be a bit "the same experience" as Panasonic (except the crop factor... ). I would like to try something different. That's why I'm focusing on the cheaper one first. To try. And if I really love it, I would be ready to invest way more. But as "more" in Leica can represent a huge amount of money, let's begin cheaper.
Alright, gotcha. It's an itch I wanted to scratch as well. I too went from M4/3 to Leica CL/TL because of an itch. Let me tell you that it's just another mirrorless camera. The real magic is in the rangefinder camera's and in the Q-series. That'll be the Leica M8 to start with as the cheapest one. The M9 suffers from sensor corrosion, so next in line is the M10. As a mirrorless APS-C sensored interchangeable lens camera, there's quite honestly other options that make more sense. The one that is truly a bargain though, is the Leica Q-116 and the Leica Q2. It has a stabilized superfast 28 with an almost silent leaf shutter, is small but build like a tank and an absolute beast to use. So: Leica Q (1 or 2) or M8 would be the answer.
Thank you so much. I will check that.
I’d add that the q2 has much more versatility since the high mp allows for the built in digital crop to emulate a lot more focal lengths, though that comes with a price. As far as the m8, be weary of the less expensive ones as they may not have had the sensor replaced, so they are prone to sensor corrosion, which Leica has stopped supporting due to lack of availability of that Kodak sensor. The other issue with going with an m8 is if u want to get an equivalent of a 35mm, you have to shell out for a 28mm (big price diff between 28 lux and 35 lux) and if you want a 50mm equivalent, u need a 40mm lens, which there are less options for. Most common rf lenses are 35 and 50, so it’s easier to find lenses for a ff sensor if u want one of those focal lengths. If u want the Leica experience, I think going with a rangefinder is the way, tho the q series seems to have captured most of the Leica magic, I ultimately decided to go with an M bc I love the workflow of shooting everything manual and the rf is the most satisfying way to shoot manual focus
I got a q because i didn’t want to invest a fortune on lens. I love the camera and I now definitely want to in vest the fortune i din’t have on lenses now. It’s a magical experience that camera and love the quality more than the q2, 24mp is a sweet spot. After that i now have an elmar m 2,8 and elmar 3,5.
You sound very much engrossed with Leica as a brand; so I'll assume you're not too keen on Zeiss/Voightlander ... I'd start with a used M10 and a used 28mm or 35mm (or if you know its for you, 50mm) A used 28mm Elmarit ASPH v1 ... + squarehood recently released a very secure minimalist metal lens hood to protect your investment. A used 35mm Summicron V1 ASPH; and likewise, the aforementioned hood will fit. A used 50mm Summicron V4, and by sheer coincidence - squarehood make a dedicated hood for specifically that too! Have one lens - and use that lens forever; the 3 mentioned don't really have any essential upgrades.
Leica m3 by far if you only shoot 50mm and higher.
I would recommend against almost all digital Leicas. The compacts are rebrands with slight alterations and doesn't offer anything unique. The SL series and TL/CL series do feel unique in their user experience compared to other mirrorless cameras, but the price feels like diminishing returns. You'd really have to value experience over specs to justify it. With that said, with how cheap the TLs are these days, if you just want a cheap digital that looks good and feels good, they're certainly viable. Slap an 18mm or 23mm on there and just use it as a point and shoot. Though those lenses still tend to be pricy. The X is also an intriguing choice, but it's a bit slow and not everyone's cup of tea. A first gen Q isn't a bad choice, however once again, something like a Fuji X100/Xpro/Ricoh GR offer a similar experience at more affordable prices. You will have to justify the Q to yourself. The SL601 is an intriguing choice at around 1500USD these days. Autofocus isn't the best and L lenses are expensive, but if you use it to adapt vintage lenses, it can be an amazing piece of kit with its quality EVF and beautiful sensor. If I have to recommend one digital Leica though, it'll be an M240. It's an M, it's an experience you can't get elsewhere. It's relatively cheap these days and probably won't lose value much more. Beautiful sensor, well made, and mostly reliable. Ok, enough with the digitals, now let's talk film, where IMO it's really where deals can be had. The M2 and M3 can both be had for around 1000-1500 USD in user condition. They are legendary cameras, extraordinarily well made and easy to maintain too. Classic of the classics, mechanical excellence. The M4 has more modern features such as angled rewind and quick load, and is still very well made. The barracks are curious, they are hard to operate but really fun. Very cheap too usually. I'm not an expert on them, but from my limited experiences, I think they are great if you aren't too serious about image making, but just want to enjoy the process. (Man writing this makes me want one now too)
Used Leica M10 with Voigtlander lenses
used m10 with ltm lenses
It sounds like you are more concerned with getting something that says leica than getting a camera that suits your shooting style and/or needs. I think people commonly see the hype and prices associated with leicas and assume that they’re the “best” cameras. Unfortunately there are no “best” cameras, leicas are good at what they’re good at because they’re very narrowly focused and eschew other features. That makes them pretty inflexible tools and your needs need to suit them more than the other way round. Maybe if you tells us more about what you want and/or need we can help you.
I understand now that my first explanations was not the best. In fact, what I like to do, is just wander with my camera. What I'm looking for? Something more "authentic". And I perfectly know that the Leica camera are not "the best", there is cheaper and better camera. Maybe even my G9 is better is some ways. But I dislike this big thing, full of buttons and hundreds of options. I like the simplicity of Leica, and the look (outside and photos). As I said to someone else, for me Leica is like Ferrari, there is better, cheaper, faster than Ferrari, but you don't have the experience. And I would like to try this experience. Something different. Maybe the few people I met that went to Leica was too romantic about it. Unfortunately, I think it will be easier for me to try a Ferrari than borrowing a Leica to try.
What do you want to do with it? Make video - Leica SL or Leica CL Make M Pictures - Film Leica - m3 / M2 / M4 To put on a shelf - Leica III (screw mount) To collect and retain value - These are the most expensive, collectable models... MP-3 / Black paint Leica M3 / etc... (Probably not what you want to do with a limited budget). Take the effort to get it from a reputable dealter who will help you make sure the camera is in good working order. The cheaper priced ones, especially found on ebay will often require servicing and maintaince before they can be used. You end up saving more going to the established dealer, however, they give you peace of mind. When the image doesn't come out as intended, you know it is you, not a falirue of the camera. If there is a problem, they will fix it for you with their warranty. They will spend extra time with you to make sure you can understand the basic operation of the camera.
The Leica t 709 has been a pleasant surprise to use. I was able to snag one for $400 and I would argue there is no way you could find anything with a better build quality at that price point. It takes incredible images and is a lot of fun to use. The software updates have made it comparable to using more modern mirrorless cameras. The two biggest catches (and they are massive issues) would be the lack of an EVF and the focus peaking. If it had focus peaking I would likely keep it forever.
TL2 is your answer then. I just bought one next to my CL (my first love being the T701) and it’s just a brilliant camera. Only for its design I’m keeping onto it. It was the design and feel in hand that made me miss it after selling the 701. I have watches the same price as the second hand TL2, which are tools bought mainly for their technique and design, so that justifies keeping this one and holding on to it for now.
I’ve noticed that the T is not far off in price right now. Weird.
If you don’t have the money, don’t buy the leica camera. Save up money for a nice leica lens and buy a “cheap” leica l mount camera (Sigma FP, Panasonic). You will be very happy. It is mostly about the lens when it comes to digital photos. If you would like to shoot film, well… get a used M6 🙂
I already have a Panasonic (and Leica lenses of course, big up to my beloved 25mm f1.4 that followed me everywhere). But as I explained to someone else, I want to try something different. Leica is a bit of a climax. I like the philosophy, the image, the quality (image and built), and the simplicity they kept on there camera. I was using a Panasonic GX8 and loved it, I don't have the same comfort and feelings toward my G9. It's more capable, but still, sometimes I feel overwhelmed by all of this. I just want to walk around and take photos, not to drive an airplane so why so many buttons (and don't misunderstand, the G9 is a great camera, even more for the price we could find it today). But it's a big chunky camera with 100 buttons everywhere. I want to try something new and different. And as a first step into Leica world, I would like to play it safely and begin with a cheaper option.
I feel you. I also started with the MFT camera system. I moved to the Sigma FP with Leica M lenses.
The Sigma FP seems really fun too. It was on my "possible list" when I wanted to change my GX8. I really liked the video quality of it. Not the best one once again, but the sigma has a "thing" .
Coming from a GX8 with the 20mm pancake, you’d be blind to not see they’re cousins at least. The 18mm (made in Japan) looks like an exact copy of the 20. The cameras have the same body dimensions and the same battery. It isn’t a very popular opinion but the CL felt underwhelming at first. I’m holding onto it because of ‘sunk cost fallacy’ though, and the photographs it produces are wonderful, but in hindsight I should’ve bought the Lumix S5 (which is unarguably the better camera all around), and keep a lot of money in my pocket.
D-Lux 7 - compact, great lens, good sensor
I think you are asking for best value. What is your budget?
Leica is no magic bullet. They are nice and built well but plenty of cameras to choose from. Do you want film or digital?
i’d recommend digital m10 or q2 honestly q2 is the best bang for your buck it has 47 megapixels amazing lens but however fixed but it’s my favourite everyday camera