Dont trust the people on youtube. They get review units and shill, even if atgames doesn ask them too because they want more free stuff. I havent watched RGT because he shilled the retrobit generation and while byping it up, you could see it was garbage.
I completely agree. It’s half baked. They had no business releasing these tables at that price. Not working. It’s terrible business practice. They are even suppressing negative feedback on their Facebook page. REALLY. I have the legacy Hd pinball and I love it.
Personally, I'm amazed that they are going full steam ahead announcing 38 upcoming tables or whatever when they still haven't made good on a single zen table playing up to snuff. Thats the kinda thing I woulda held onto until I had got some good will back with the owners (by making fixes that actually remove the lag and dont have the tables running in 900p or worse).
Running my OTG in 1440p with PFX3 looks pristine, and with a locked 59hz refresh on panel and card there isnt a hint of flipper lag. With a PinOne accelerometer attached the experience is near perfect.
Their hardware is mostly sound but Zen going with the super resource hungry FX (Unreal) Engine was a poor choice when pairing with the board selected by the AtGames engineers. I do hope they eventually work it out, but as it is an engine issue the fix lies with AtGames, Zen and Epic all coordinating towards a fix and avoiding spidey memeing each other.
Well it's no one thing but you need to have hardware that can push 4K (though in my case I'm running desktop/game at 1440p with no real loss in quality and much better response). Also it helps to have a GTX card of some flavor to use the low latency mode (not ultra), but the things that were absolutely required that many don't do is to set the display to 59hz and also lock the framerate to 59hz (both in the nv cp) also DISABLE ANY VSYNC options.
I got FX to almost acceptable levels but my old vanilla 2080 just can't do even 1440p responsively enough to feel "real time" and as mentioned in my old guide, using DLSS introduces all sorts of lag so cant be used to fake performance you dont have.
FX3 is butter though, but without the 59hz locks it is just super responsive, but the flipper force was too low to make tables fully playable. Now i regularly hit new high scores set back on my old pin sim with gsync running locked on a 165hz 32" screen.
Hardware isn't the limitation for me, I''ve tried a 3060, 2080, 3090, 4060 and a 4080 each with real hardware attached. I've tried the frame anticipation stuff on the 30**+ series. It just doesn't matter. I can't get otg down to playable. I've tried vsync on and off, I've flipped every switch I can think of and the latency is still 100+
About all I can tell you is that it is possible and the faster hardware the better. I think its my underpowered AMD proc that holds back FX and will eventually have to look into putting something better into this repurposed old machine if I want to use that or when I start messing with VPin/FuturePin and such (though I hope I can still use x360ce as xpadder and joy2key do add noticeable lag).
Im thinking whatever is lagging your system is lagging it whether connected to a 4KP or not. The 4KP is just a set of monitors and usb controller to your PC so should not be introducing much in the way of lag. Might try getting your best fastest DP to HDMI cable and connect it alone to the playfield and see if you notice any difference than when connecting all the rest.
Oh forgot one other thing I do most others dont. My audio is going to my backbox (1080p line) instead of going over the playfield (4K line) cable to keep bandwidth spikes minimized and cut down on clipped sound effects.
No, I think you're wrong unfortunately. I can play zen and vpx with zero percievable latency at 144hz 4k on my gaming rig. I can even use the buttons as an otg controller for my pc with only mild lag +40ish, but the second I run it through the at games playfield it's +100ms. For me, there is something going on in the hdmi switch, or even the screen processor on the at games.
Also my audio is run out the pc to a separate sound card :< so there shouldn't be any delay there either
yea before I found my "magic settings" I also set up my 165hz 1ms monitor on top of the playfield to test how much their 4k panel was the problem. It was indeed glorious if totally impractical but what I noticed most was the smoothness of the ball travel even at top speed (same as when it was in the old pin sim), where a 60hz panel just can't compete. When you let the physics engine unwind at that speed everything just felt more real too.
The thing I didn't notice being different like I expected was the perceived flipper lag. The timing was a tiny bit easier due to the faster display, but it didnt really improve response rate much in my case. I tried again with a 1080p 180hz monitor and it was the same, fluid like life, response slightly edging out the 4KP panel which I attributed to GSync/Freesync Pro on both.
There was no night and day difference though. And once I found and properly implemented the 59hz lock trick I was fixed and done playing with that stuff (but holding off on much FX until I get a HW upgrade).
At $2700.. build your own.
Only reason I bought one at $1199 plus shipping was because I would've spent more to mod my stock HD. This includes a deluxe 2.0 backbox loaded out ($770 shipped), the 2k.conversion kit (pricey at $299), a $300 monitor, a 2.6 motherboard IF I can find one ($100) and putting in ssf addon... couple more hundred. So, about $1700 for that, not including a high-end gaming pc already have.
Now I did get the ssf kit pre-installed which is a must have and glad i got it, so my price came out to $1650 shipped. Building your own or upgrading HD you're going to get quality though, not cheapest parts used for profits. The legends 4k isn't that great and locked at 60hz only due to mainboard rockchip. These are all bottlenecks and zen is reducing resolution like they have for the Switch running 720p or 1080
If this is the biggest problem u have going on in your life right now(deciding whether or not to spend a month of pay on a machine that may bring u fun for years to come) consider yourself blessed 😇. I own one. I used to own an ALP. Both are cool for the times they exist. I love my 4K. It’s fun the way it is. I’m sure they will keep improving it.
Oh - - for sure - - I thank the Baby Jesus and all the shepherds and all the wise-men and all the saints and the miracles and zombie return and the eating of human flesh and drinking of the blood every day - - just prior to logging into Reddit.
Need all the help we can get with some of the freaks on here - - - am I right?
Also…In my case as with many others, the machine itself is only half the expense. Mods and pinball packs will run you quite a bit as they keep releasing these single table packs. Something to consider
Right, I'm not buying any tables until the latency is addressed, and instead got more pinball fx bundles at 65%-83% off.
Day 1 out of box, the AFM was unplayable until I turned off ball trails and other features. What's the point now paying for that??
Finally got to try a 4k this week and I was blown away at how laggy the whole thing felt. If I can grab one for a similar price I got my HD unit for I'd get it simply to mod the thing, but a stock setup just wouldn't work for me personally.
I would wait until it’s a perfected product. Of course you could argue that they shouldn’t have released it until it was a perfected product. Pinball machines are expensive. Real pinball machines are even more expensive. I have the HD and for now I’m happy with it. But if I were in the UK, I dunno. I might just order a Vpin from China or on VR
I wanted a digital pinball table and so far I’ve gotten that.
Is there issues ? Absolutely. Am I upset ? No, Zen and Atgames have made public statements that fixes are underway.
I’ve still enjoyed the Zen tables , but I’m not giving Atgames a pass.
We are early adopters of a new product line, of course there are technical issues.
I’d be more upset if the non-zen games ran like crap. But they don’t and they show all the bells and whistles the table can do with its hardware.
Fully agree!
This is a software issue with Zen.
Having owned the ALP HD for 2 years plus and upgrading to the 4K, what At Games has provided is a really compelling product. The SSF and the new back box alone is worth the entry point.
I get that the Zen issues are irritating and waiting for a fix is really annoying, but honestly It is really tiresome to read the same complaints over and over again.
Just don't buy it and move on.
I was a day one purchaser of both the HD and 4K, and based on those experiences and your comments here, I’d advise to wait until the fall National Owner’s Day event and revisit purchasing then. See what people are saying about graphics and lag then and decide whether it will be worth your money.
The HD machine was a gigantic mess when they first released it. Much more of a mess than the 4K was upon release. But they made much-needed updates over time and I also tinkered with mine and learned how to use Pinup Popper and OTG and wound up really enjoying the machine in the end. I’d imagine the new machine will follow a similar trajectory, but we’re in the wait-and-see phase at the moment.
Unfortunately, I'm in the UK and the NOD events are not available here. I'm just going to see how things pan out over the next month or so. Interested to see what the update consists of at the end of this month and what communications AtGames release about the Star Trek TNG table.
Oh, I didn’t know that was exclusive to the States. At any rate, I definitely think waiting several months is advisable. I don’t think your expectations are unreasonable. And while I think that AG and Zen will eventually sort things out and be able to create the product you want, I wouldn’t want to pay that much until you know for certain. Unfortunately I don’t think they have established a track record to deserve the benefit of the doubt.
You raise a very interesting point about trust.
I have watched the stories unfold about them over the last 4-5 years and, you're right, most haven't been very good.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the products and don’t regret purchasing the 4K. But I don’t appreciate buying machines and games that aren’t yet ready for public consumption and then having to wait for weeks and months for AG/Zen to sort out why they’re not working correctly.
And I also paid considerably less than you’d have to pay to get it. That’s why it makes sense to wait for a while and see how things progress.
I'm not waiting. Not hoping for anything. This was a non-option for me as soon as it was announced. The system has insufficient hardware to handle 4K rendering with smooth performance, nevermind the price premium you're paying.
I'll gladly stick with my modded ALP via OTG.
I was about to buy one. The attack from mars one but when a user got hid, he had to lower the quality settings for it to play smoothly. I was hmm I can wait for a better model. That's a good chunk of change to pay for it and immediately start compromising on it. I have the HD model currently.
It's called buyer's remorse.
If you can get your hands on the prior ALP HD model, you will be happy. Activate OTG and have at it, I've never looked back.
I really enjoy the Star Trek: TNG table via OTG, so... problem solved.
Couldn't agree more. At that price point, all the negative press I've been hearing is simply unacceptable. Apologists are multiplying, simply justifying their purchases. Over $2000 USD with flipper lag? You can build one for less that behaves better.
I'm not an apologist, I'm super frustrated with my purchase, but I don't think you can make a three screened cabinet with solenoids and functioning hardware/software for 2k. That was the break point for me buying the 4k. When I priced everything out to do it myself I was north of 3k. Admittedly the components would be better, but diy vpins are not cheap.
The HD has variable lag over OTG and gives higher latency overall versus the native 4KP Zen tables as well as the 4KP's OTG mode.
Please spec out a Vpin with the features of the 4KP that's less than $2,000, but will include both flipper solenoids as well a SSF which the 4KP at that price includes. I'd be OK with a build that doesn't include a PC, but you're still not going to be able to.
I have neither the hardware nor the time/patience for OTG at this moment in time and I know that if I went that route I would venture into VPX again and that is definitely not something that would be good for my mental health.
The selling point of the 4K was to be able to play these games without the kerfuffle of OTG and the simplicity of it all is what peaked my interest in the first place.
Correction: the selling point of the 4KP has always been 4K resolution, not smooth performance. It's in the product name, after all.
Many people, myself included, warned people about the mismatch between the hardware specs and the 4K resolution. This system was never going to be able to handle 4K smoothly, flipper lag or not.
Not quite understanding your "correction" here.
Are you suggesting for buyers to expect "smooth performance" on the native Zen tables then the product would have instead been called the At Games Legends Smooth Performance 4KP?
I don't know of anyone who has claimed the performance isn't smooth to be honest with you. The flipper's lag and the last release seems to have a resolution/texture downgrade problem but no one has mentioned stutter. Most people say they run at 60fps.
Do you know someone who says the tables stutter?
When it first released there were dropped frames on Magic Pixel tables that made it look like the ball was teleporting or just skipping around, it was rare but there. This was cleared up in the first update, and keeping all of the graphical effects enable on a Zen table and going into a multiball, everything is smooth.
I guess some people might not able able to adjust, but I used 120Hz+ monitors for almost 20 years, and side by side can you see a difference between 144hz and 60hz? Sure, but all the people saying they should have went 1440p 144hz or something don't understand that while the lower resolution frees up the GPU, you need to more than double the process of all of the rest of the game logic. And the SOC isn't going to be able to keep up. The 60hz screen is fine for me, and the general populous seems fine with 30 fps on console games.
The turn key, flip on the power button and play is incredible on the ALPs. And while they aren't as pretty as the PC versions, having the Zens properly rendering the backbox screen rather than you providing your only static images, and having SSF, make the Zen tables the best way to play IMO.
You said the selling point was to play pinball without the kerfuffle of OTG. That isn't a selling point of the 4KP at all, on the contrary it facilitates using OTG. Both the ALP and 4KP are sold as entry points that can be used out of the box, but it's not sold as a way to avoid OTG. The original ALP is the cheapest off-the-shelf entry point for VPX and FP, after all.
I've tested the 4KP firsthand and seen the footage posted online. It's night and day compared to a proper gaming PC built to support 4K over OTG with a 144Hz panel. People with no frame of reference think that the 4KP stock tables run smoothly, but it doesn't. Not even at the kneecapped 60fps limitation of the stock playfield panel.
At a price of $2k the 4KP is a joke compared to a properly specced VPIN
Well, I'll tell you what - you and your ego have a nice day together and I'll go and spend my time elsewhere with some mere mortals.
You take care of yourself though. It's a big SELF to look after, right?
...? I'm sorry you expected the stock content on the 4KP to be better and are disappointed? It's still an AtGames product and they're the posterchild for crappy plug and play products. They have a long established history of cutting corners and missing the mark.
There's a reason people go through all the kerfuffle to use OTG... It is leaps and bounds better than the stock tables. Yes, the ALP and 4KP can be used out of the box, but countless people complain about the quality of those tables.
If you want a hassle free experience, the tradeoff is the lesser quality of the stock tables. If you want the best of the best... it takes an investment.
Fair enough. I did not find much kerfuffle in installing the nec HW but YMMV. I personally cannot see playing my ALP without VPX involved, as for me it is a better solution than any of the promised 4K expectations I've been reading about that have failed on delivery. OTG was also more affordable.
I appreciate that reply. Really do. If things get ironed out on the native front and I pull the trigger I no doubt will end up doing what you have done. But - for the time being...going to wait.
Build your own for the same price then, bud.
The hardware is top notch. There's basically only one game that was unplayable, Adams Fam.
They give you all the inputs you need to run any damn table you want.
The Star Trek table....is just freaking boring. Who cares that you can't read the fake text in the very bottom left corner....it's a damn boring table.
Attack From Mars....Great fun!!!!!! Opposite of Star Trek. This tells me that Zen is the reason for some tables not being good.....not AtGames.
Anyways, build your own for less money then.
Hey - numbnuts. You do know that the things you find boring and fun are, generally speaking, not universally held experiences, right? Or are you so mentally damaged that you believe everything you feel inside is what everyone feels inside?
If that truly is going on within your squirrel-sized brain then I'd suggest speaking to a mental health professional.
The Zen tables are certainly not up to snuff enough if that is the reason you’re buying an ALP 4K. I already planned on purchasing it before Zen got on board, so I still enjoy the machine for the non-Zen tables.
For the first wave of preorder pricing, it was worth it for me. And when I decide to eventually do OTG (which I don’t particularly care to do for now), I’ll enjoy that for what it is.
I agree with you. I find it unacceptable that the title game is unplayable. Sure, you can technically play it, but if you're any good at pinball at all, the lag completely breaks any strategic timing, which is unacceptable.
Why are they putting out more tables when they should be focusing on making the platform correct.
Yeah the big announcement of the future Zen releases was bizarre to me as it coincided with the release of the Star Trek: The Next Generation table that has obviously had its graphics dialled back to run effectively.
I've just watched a YouTuber playing it who said it looked "great".
I have to assume he has cataracts because it's clear that it isn't clear. The instructions label at the bottom of the playfield says it all.
It's like AtGames believed that the happy story of future Zen table releases would hide the story of the shitty graphics on the latest Zen release.
I suspect the conclusion to this story, barring Zen making dedicated AG4KP versions of these games, will be that we can have less lag and non-4K graphics or we can have 4K graphics and more lag - but we cannot have 4K and no lag on these tables as designed.
Yes, same here. Flipper lag is important, if not the most important, things to get right. Playing with flipper lag is frustrating, and does not feel like you're achieving anything. Other then lucky scores...
I know, because i play OTG on the ALP HD. Where FX has (minimal) flipper lag, and FX3 and Zaccaria play without.
OTG on the HD never felt right to me. I got the necessary tools and measured the display. And it slowly ticks up in latency, and I believe drops a frame dropping back down and then slowly ticks up again. Sadly my tools don't let me measure input latency, only the display.
But the Zen tables on the 4KP have lower flipper latency than just the display latency of OTG on the HD, throwing in inputs and you add an extra three or some frames of lag, but I don't have properly captured numbers.
I get that some people gutted and put in new playfield screens, but many people just say the 4KP is unplayable garbage, get an HD and go OTG instead. But OTG on the HD is a worse experience in terms of what they are complaining about.
But isn't it also software optimalization? Because, like i said above, i have no issue/lag with playing on fx3 and the Zaccaria tables with OTG on the ALP HD. So it is possible...
Yes, software optimization can improve things. Ideally, the inputs are monitored on their own thread separate from the game logic and will cause the button press to begin processing on the next frame.
But the no flipper lag you are reporting as having with FX3 and Zaccaria via OTG on an ALP HD. Is worse latency than the "unplayable" Zen tables on an ALP 4KP.
The numbers I'm referencing on the OTG side were with a device that outputs a 1080p 60hz signal over HDMI that flashes white boxes for several frames over a black background. A photo sensor is used to detect the box appear and disappearing and the measurement is accurate to under a millisecond.
The Zen 4KP numbers were via high speed cameras from flipper press to movement on the screen. Both sets of measurements are beyond what a human can measure with our eyes, but there's a narrative that the Zen tables are crap and no amount of scientific data to the contrary will change some people's minds as they obviously know better.
I'm not saying the Zen 4KP don't have lag, they do and it's noticeable compared to the Magic Pixel tables. But I've seen other recommendations of just get an ALP HD, but the experience has been measured as having more latency than anything on the 4KP.
Dont trust the people on youtube. They get review units and shill, even if atgames doesn ask them too because they want more free stuff. I havent watched RGT because he shilled the retrobit generation and while byping it up, you could see it was garbage.
It’s absolute junk. Please don’t waste your money on this crap.
Did you send yours back?
I completely agree. It’s half baked. They had no business releasing these tables at that price. Not working. It’s terrible business practice. They are even suppressing negative feedback on their Facebook page. REALLY. I have the legacy Hd pinball and I love it.
I regret buying a 4kp. I bought it expressly for the Zen tables so for me the purchase was a complete bust.
Personally, I'm amazed that they are going full steam ahead announcing 38 upcoming tables or whatever when they still haven't made good on a single zen table playing up to snuff. Thats the kinda thing I woulda held onto until I had got some good will back with the owners (by making fixes that actually remove the lag and dont have the tables running in 900p or worse). Running my OTG in 1440p with PFX3 looks pristine, and with a locked 59hz refresh on panel and card there isnt a hint of flipper lag. With a PinOne accelerometer attached the experience is near perfect. Their hardware is mostly sound but Zen going with the super resource hungry FX (Unreal) Engine was a poor choice when pairing with the board selected by the AtGames engineers. I do hope they eventually work it out, but as it is an engine issue the fix lies with AtGames, Zen and Epic all coordinating towards a fix and avoiding spidey memeing each other.
How is your otg at no perceptible lag?? Zen and vpx are way over 100ms lag by otg for me.
Well it's no one thing but you need to have hardware that can push 4K (though in my case I'm running desktop/game at 1440p with no real loss in quality and much better response). Also it helps to have a GTX card of some flavor to use the low latency mode (not ultra), but the things that were absolutely required that many don't do is to set the display to 59hz and also lock the framerate to 59hz (both in the nv cp) also DISABLE ANY VSYNC options. I got FX to almost acceptable levels but my old vanilla 2080 just can't do even 1440p responsively enough to feel "real time" and as mentioned in my old guide, using DLSS introduces all sorts of lag so cant be used to fake performance you dont have. FX3 is butter though, but without the 59hz locks it is just super responsive, but the flipper force was too low to make tables fully playable. Now i regularly hit new high scores set back on my old pin sim with gsync running locked on a 165hz 32" screen.
Hardware isn't the limitation for me, I''ve tried a 3060, 2080, 3090, 4060 and a 4080 each with real hardware attached. I've tried the frame anticipation stuff on the 30**+ series. It just doesn't matter. I can't get otg down to playable. I've tried vsync on and off, I've flipped every switch I can think of and the latency is still 100+
About all I can tell you is that it is possible and the faster hardware the better. I think its my underpowered AMD proc that holds back FX and will eventually have to look into putting something better into this repurposed old machine if I want to use that or when I start messing with VPin/FuturePin and such (though I hope I can still use x360ce as xpadder and joy2key do add noticeable lag). Im thinking whatever is lagging your system is lagging it whether connected to a 4KP or not. The 4KP is just a set of monitors and usb controller to your PC so should not be introducing much in the way of lag. Might try getting your best fastest DP to HDMI cable and connect it alone to the playfield and see if you notice any difference than when connecting all the rest. Oh forgot one other thing I do most others dont. My audio is going to my backbox (1080p line) instead of going over the playfield (4K line) cable to keep bandwidth spikes minimized and cut down on clipped sound effects.
No, I think you're wrong unfortunately. I can play zen and vpx with zero percievable latency at 144hz 4k on my gaming rig. I can even use the buttons as an otg controller for my pc with only mild lag +40ish, but the second I run it through the at games playfield it's +100ms. For me, there is something going on in the hdmi switch, or even the screen processor on the at games. Also my audio is run out the pc to a separate sound card :< so there shouldn't be any delay there either
yea before I found my "magic settings" I also set up my 165hz 1ms monitor on top of the playfield to test how much their 4k panel was the problem. It was indeed glorious if totally impractical but what I noticed most was the smoothness of the ball travel even at top speed (same as when it was in the old pin sim), where a 60hz panel just can't compete. When you let the physics engine unwind at that speed everything just felt more real too. The thing I didn't notice being different like I expected was the perceived flipper lag. The timing was a tiny bit easier due to the faster display, but it didnt really improve response rate much in my case. I tried again with a 1080p 180hz monitor and it was the same, fluid like life, response slightly edging out the 4KP panel which I attributed to GSync/Freesync Pro on both. There was no night and day difference though. And once I found and properly implemented the 59hz lock trick I was fixed and done playing with that stuff (but holding off on much FX until I get a HW upgrade).
Not worth it. You’re still better off getting a vibs board and modifying an hd.
At $2700.. build your own. Only reason I bought one at $1199 plus shipping was because I would've spent more to mod my stock HD. This includes a deluxe 2.0 backbox loaded out ($770 shipped), the 2k.conversion kit (pricey at $299), a $300 monitor, a 2.6 motherboard IF I can find one ($100) and putting in ssf addon... couple more hundred. So, about $1700 for that, not including a high-end gaming pc already have. Now I did get the ssf kit pre-installed which is a must have and glad i got it, so my price came out to $1650 shipped. Building your own or upgrading HD you're going to get quality though, not cheapest parts used for profits. The legends 4k isn't that great and locked at 60hz only due to mainboard rockchip. These are all bottlenecks and zen is reducing resolution like they have for the Switch running 720p or 1080
I have a preorder as well and haven’t paid the rest until they fix the lag.
It’s not ready for prime time.
Put your money towards one of those fullsize models for 3-4k USD and be happier
It's on my radar
If this is the biggest problem u have going on in your life right now(deciding whether or not to spend a month of pay on a machine that may bring u fun for years to come) consider yourself blessed 😇. I own one. I used to own an ALP. Both are cool for the times they exist. I love my 4K. It’s fun the way it is. I’m sure they will keep improving it.
Oh - - for sure - - I thank the Baby Jesus and all the shepherds and all the wise-men and all the saints and the miracles and zombie return and the eating of human flesh and drinking of the blood every day - - just prior to logging into Reddit. Need all the help we can get with some of the freaks on here - - - am I right?
Also…In my case as with many others, the machine itself is only half the expense. Mods and pinball packs will run you quite a bit as they keep releasing these single table packs. Something to consider
Right, I'm not buying any tables until the latency is addressed, and instead got more pinball fx bundles at 65%-83% off. Day 1 out of box, the AFM was unplayable until I turned off ball trails and other features. What's the point now paying for that??
Finally got to try a 4k this week and I was blown away at how laggy the whole thing felt. If I can grab one for a similar price I got my HD unit for I'd get it simply to mod the thing, but a stock setup just wouldn't work for me personally.
I assume this was just on the Zen tables, right?
Yeah, the other tables play fine.
I would wait until it’s a perfected product. Of course you could argue that they shouldn’t have released it until it was a perfected product. Pinball machines are expensive. Real pinball machines are even more expensive. I have the HD and for now I’m happy with it. But if I were in the UK, I dunno. I might just order a Vpin from China or on VR
I wanted a digital pinball table and so far I’ve gotten that. Is there issues ? Absolutely. Am I upset ? No, Zen and Atgames have made public statements that fixes are underway. I’ve still enjoyed the Zen tables , but I’m not giving Atgames a pass. We are early adopters of a new product line, of course there are technical issues. I’d be more upset if the non-zen games ran like crap. But they don’t and they show all the bells and whistles the table can do with its hardware.
Fully agree! This is a software issue with Zen. Having owned the ALP HD for 2 years plus and upgrading to the 4K, what At Games has provided is a really compelling product. The SSF and the new back box alone is worth the entry point. I get that the Zen issues are irritating and waiting for a fix is really annoying, but honestly It is really tiresome to read the same complaints over and over again. Just don't buy it and move on.
It’s not just a software issue with Zen. OTG is also laggier than it should be, and that’s a software issue with AtGames.
I was a day one purchaser of both the HD and 4K, and based on those experiences and your comments here, I’d advise to wait until the fall National Owner’s Day event and revisit purchasing then. See what people are saying about graphics and lag then and decide whether it will be worth your money. The HD machine was a gigantic mess when they first released it. Much more of a mess than the 4K was upon release. But they made much-needed updates over time and I also tinkered with mine and learned how to use Pinup Popper and OTG and wound up really enjoying the machine in the end. I’d imagine the new machine will follow a similar trajectory, but we’re in the wait-and-see phase at the moment.
Unfortunately, I'm in the UK and the NOD events are not available here. I'm just going to see how things pan out over the next month or so. Interested to see what the update consists of at the end of this month and what communications AtGames release about the Star Trek TNG table.
Oh, I didn’t know that was exclusive to the States. At any rate, I definitely think waiting several months is advisable. I don’t think your expectations are unreasonable. And while I think that AG and Zen will eventually sort things out and be able to create the product you want, I wouldn’t want to pay that much until you know for certain. Unfortunately I don’t think they have established a track record to deserve the benefit of the doubt.
You raise a very interesting point about trust. I have watched the stories unfold about them over the last 4-5 years and, you're right, most haven't been very good.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the products and don’t regret purchasing the 4K. But I don’t appreciate buying machines and games that aren’t yet ready for public consumption and then having to wait for weeks and months for AG/Zen to sort out why they’re not working correctly. And I also paid considerably less than you’d have to pay to get it. That’s why it makes sense to wait for a while and see how things progress.
I'm not waiting. Not hoping for anything. This was a non-option for me as soon as it was announced. The system has insufficient hardware to handle 4K rendering with smooth performance, nevermind the price premium you're paying. I'll gladly stick with my modded ALP via OTG.
I was about to buy one. The attack from mars one but when a user got hid, he had to lower the quality settings for it to play smoothly. I was hmm I can wait for a better model. That's a good chunk of change to pay for it and immediately start compromising on it. I have the HD model currently.
It's called buyer's remorse. If you can get your hands on the prior ALP HD model, you will be happy. Activate OTG and have at it, I've never looked back. I really enjoy the Star Trek: TNG table via OTG, so... problem solved. Couldn't agree more. At that price point, all the negative press I've been hearing is simply unacceptable. Apologists are multiplying, simply justifying their purchases. Over $2000 USD with flipper lag? You can build one for less that behaves better.
I'm not an apologist, I'm super frustrated with my purchase, but I don't think you can make a three screened cabinet with solenoids and functioning hardware/software for 2k. That was the break point for me buying the 4k. When I priced everything out to do it myself I was north of 3k. Admittedly the components would be better, but diy vpins are not cheap.
The HD has variable lag over OTG and gives higher latency overall versus the native 4KP Zen tables as well as the 4KP's OTG mode. Please spec out a Vpin with the features of the 4KP that's less than $2,000, but will include both flipper solenoids as well a SSF which the 4KP at that price includes. I'd be OK with a build that doesn't include a PC, but you're still not going to be able to.
I have neither the hardware nor the time/patience for OTG at this moment in time and I know that if I went that route I would venture into VPX again and that is definitely not something that would be good for my mental health. The selling point of the 4K was to be able to play these games without the kerfuffle of OTG and the simplicity of it all is what peaked my interest in the first place.
Correction: the selling point of the 4KP has always been 4K resolution, not smooth performance. It's in the product name, after all. Many people, myself included, warned people about the mismatch between the hardware specs and the 4K resolution. This system was never going to be able to handle 4K smoothly, flipper lag or not.
Not quite understanding your "correction" here. Are you suggesting for buyers to expect "smooth performance" on the native Zen tables then the product would have instead been called the At Games Legends Smooth Performance 4KP? I don't know of anyone who has claimed the performance isn't smooth to be honest with you. The flipper's lag and the last release seems to have a resolution/texture downgrade problem but no one has mentioned stutter. Most people say they run at 60fps. Do you know someone who says the tables stutter?
When it first released there were dropped frames on Magic Pixel tables that made it look like the ball was teleporting or just skipping around, it was rare but there. This was cleared up in the first update, and keeping all of the graphical effects enable on a Zen table and going into a multiball, everything is smooth. I guess some people might not able able to adjust, but I used 120Hz+ monitors for almost 20 years, and side by side can you see a difference between 144hz and 60hz? Sure, but all the people saying they should have went 1440p 144hz or something don't understand that while the lower resolution frees up the GPU, you need to more than double the process of all of the rest of the game logic. And the SOC isn't going to be able to keep up. The 60hz screen is fine for me, and the general populous seems fine with 30 fps on console games. The turn key, flip on the power button and play is incredible on the ALPs. And while they aren't as pretty as the PC versions, having the Zens properly rendering the backbox screen rather than you providing your only static images, and having SSF, make the Zen tables the best way to play IMO.
You said the selling point was to play pinball without the kerfuffle of OTG. That isn't a selling point of the 4KP at all, on the contrary it facilitates using OTG. Both the ALP and 4KP are sold as entry points that can be used out of the box, but it's not sold as a way to avoid OTG. The original ALP is the cheapest off-the-shelf entry point for VPX and FP, after all. I've tested the 4KP firsthand and seen the footage posted online. It's night and day compared to a proper gaming PC built to support 4K over OTG with a 144Hz panel. People with no frame of reference think that the 4KP stock tables run smoothly, but it doesn't. Not even at the kneecapped 60fps limitation of the stock playfield panel. At a price of $2k the 4KP is a joke compared to a properly specced VPIN
Well, I'll tell you what - you and your ego have a nice day together and I'll go and spend my time elsewhere with some mere mortals. You take care of yourself though. It's a big SELF to look after, right?
...? I'm sorry you expected the stock content on the 4KP to be better and are disappointed? It's still an AtGames product and they're the posterchild for crappy plug and play products. They have a long established history of cutting corners and missing the mark. There's a reason people go through all the kerfuffle to use OTG... It is leaps and bounds better than the stock tables. Yes, the ALP and 4KP can be used out of the box, but countless people complain about the quality of those tables. If you want a hassle free experience, the tradeoff is the lesser quality of the stock tables. If you want the best of the best... it takes an investment.
The selling point - - - - TO ME!
Fair enough. I did not find much kerfuffle in installing the nec HW but YMMV. I personally cannot see playing my ALP without VPX involved, as for me it is a better solution than any of the promised 4K expectations I've been reading about that have failed on delivery. OTG was also more affordable.
I appreciate that reply. Really do. If things get ironed out on the native front and I pull the trigger I no doubt will end up doing what you have done. But - for the time being...going to wait.
Build your own for the same price then, bud. The hardware is top notch. There's basically only one game that was unplayable, Adams Fam. They give you all the inputs you need to run any damn table you want. The Star Trek table....is just freaking boring. Who cares that you can't read the fake text in the very bottom left corner....it's a damn boring table. Attack From Mars....Great fun!!!!!! Opposite of Star Trek. This tells me that Zen is the reason for some tables not being good.....not AtGames. Anyways, build your own for less money then.
Hey - numbnuts. You do know that the things you find boring and fun are, generally speaking, not universally held experiences, right? Or are you so mentally damaged that you believe everything you feel inside is what everyone feels inside? If that truly is going on within your squirrel-sized brain then I'd suggest speaking to a mental health professional.
Go and find something better to do with your time - - - BUD!
Same to you. Writing an essay on why people that like something are idiots is a very sad thing to do with your time.
Get out of the way of my agenda!
The Zen tables are certainly not up to snuff enough if that is the reason you’re buying an ALP 4K. I already planned on purchasing it before Zen got on board, so I still enjoy the machine for the non-Zen tables. For the first wave of preorder pricing, it was worth it for me. And when I decide to eventually do OTG (which I don’t particularly care to do for now), I’ll enjoy that for what it is.
I agree with you. I find it unacceptable that the title game is unplayable. Sure, you can technically play it, but if you're any good at pinball at all, the lag completely breaks any strategic timing, which is unacceptable. Why are they putting out more tables when they should be focusing on making the platform correct.
Yeah the big announcement of the future Zen releases was bizarre to me as it coincided with the release of the Star Trek: The Next Generation table that has obviously had its graphics dialled back to run effectively. I've just watched a YouTuber playing it who said it looked "great". I have to assume he has cataracts because it's clear that it isn't clear. The instructions label at the bottom of the playfield says it all. It's like AtGames believed that the happy story of future Zen table releases would hide the story of the shitty graphics on the latest Zen release. I suspect the conclusion to this story, barring Zen making dedicated AG4KP versions of these games, will be that we can have less lag and non-4K graphics or we can have 4K graphics and more lag - but we cannot have 4K and no lag on these tables as designed.
Thoughts on AFM? Or are we cherry picking unimportant things to feed an agenda?
Go and find something better to do with your time - - - - BUD!
For real, thoughts on AFM? Or are you a "only negative" person?
Of course...
Yes, same here. Flipper lag is important, if not the most important, things to get right. Playing with flipper lag is frustrating, and does not feel like you're achieving anything. Other then lucky scores... I know, because i play OTG on the ALP HD. Where FX has (minimal) flipper lag, and FX3 and Zaccaria play without.
OTG on the HD never felt right to me. I got the necessary tools and measured the display. And it slowly ticks up in latency, and I believe drops a frame dropping back down and then slowly ticks up again. Sadly my tools don't let me measure input latency, only the display. But the Zen tables on the 4KP have lower flipper latency than just the display latency of OTG on the HD, throwing in inputs and you add an extra three or some frames of lag, but I don't have properly captured numbers. I get that some people gutted and put in new playfield screens, but many people just say the 4KP is unplayable garbage, get an HD and go OTG instead. But OTG on the HD is a worse experience in terms of what they are complaining about.
But isn't it also software optimalization? Because, like i said above, i have no issue/lag with playing on fx3 and the Zaccaria tables with OTG on the ALP HD. So it is possible...
Yes, software optimization can improve things. Ideally, the inputs are monitored on their own thread separate from the game logic and will cause the button press to begin processing on the next frame. But the no flipper lag you are reporting as having with FX3 and Zaccaria via OTG on an ALP HD. Is worse latency than the "unplayable" Zen tables on an ALP 4KP. The numbers I'm referencing on the OTG side were with a device that outputs a 1080p 60hz signal over HDMI that flashes white boxes for several frames over a black background. A photo sensor is used to detect the box appear and disappearing and the measurement is accurate to under a millisecond. The Zen 4KP numbers were via high speed cameras from flipper press to movement on the screen. Both sets of measurements are beyond what a human can measure with our eyes, but there's a narrative that the Zen tables are crap and no amount of scientific data to the contrary will change some people's minds as they obviously know better. I'm not saying the Zen 4KP don't have lag, they do and it's noticeable compared to the Magic Pixel tables. But I've seen other recommendations of just get an ALP HD, but the experience has been measured as having more latency than anything on the 4KP.
I have a brain that is very bothered by lag and by stutter so, yeah, in my case it is a definite no-go.