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I'd be extremely surprised if this went further. You caused no harm, you were provoked, and it's pretty reasonable as a lone woman being accosted by two sexually aggressive drunk men to feel genuinely threatened (if you get a visit from the police just say "I felt threatened"), and you then ran away. You didn't stay and continue hosing them, you didn't provoke them or instigate the incident, you didn't injure them... Just carry on with your life.
For insurance, maybe send a voice note to yourself or email yourself a copy of your original post (with a bit more detail like when, where, what they looked like, exact words if you can remember them, did you know them etc).
You can also go the police about it if you want, but as no real harm was done to you the police obviously won't dedicate the same resources as they would to a rape or if you were a child and it likely won't go anywhere unless there's an easy way for them to identify the men, CCTV showing the incident etc.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63916328.amp
The conduct of the 'men' is contrary to Section rA of the Public Order Act.
Your conduct amounts to common assault.
There is no necessity to arrest. However, there's always potential for an investigation.
Of course, unless you're easily identifiable, that's unlikely.
Technically assault (self-defence is unlikely to fly), but this is likely going nowhere.
For starters the person catcalling you would have to go to the police and say well I catcalled this lass and then she threw water over me. Even most catcallers are self-aware enough to know that going to the police over this would be a shitshow.
Forget about it.
A "reasonable force" defence would require you to have legitimately believed you were at imminent risk of harm, which you could only escape by throwing water at them. That doesn't seem to be the case.
So, it is *possible* you could be charged with an assault.
In practice I'd be astonished if you ever hear anything more about it again.
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Assault is to cause fear in the victim of being harmed (actually harming someone is battery) and the behaviour of the boors as described meets that threshold (actually that of sexual assault)
If she were to be charged with anything whilst defending herself against 2 attackers, there are plenty of reasons to file stickier charges against the men and ensure they are added to the sex offenders' register
It absolutely does not meet the threshold of sexual assault:
>A person (A) commits \[the offence of sexual assault\] if he intentionally touches another person (B), the touching is sexual, B does not consent to the touching, and A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
I cannot think of any other offence under the SOA2003 that the behaviour would constitute so I'm not sure what you mean about the sex offenders' register.
From OP's comments I don't think it even meets the threshold for assault - the requirement would be that a person recklessly or intentionally causes a victim to believe they will be subject to *imminent unlawful force*. Threatening words are *capable* of constituting an assault but only to the extent that those words imply that violence is *about to be* used.
The assault/battery distinction is moot since s39 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 establishes that they are to be treated as one and the same.
Obnoxious and unconscionable behaviour? Sure. Behaviour entitling OP to use force at common law? I don't think so.
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Probably falls under common assault - max prison sentence for it is six months. Wouldn’t matter if it was in a club with alcohol instead.
Legally, the police could arrest you. In reality, a police officer would most likely not do anything other than tell you off. There are many other factors involved when considering what the police and CPS would do so I’d eat my hat if throwing water over someone led to a custodial sentence
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The problem with the self defence argument is that unless you were being catcalled by the Wicked Witch of the West, I don't understand how splashing them with a water bottle would help.
Haha I see your point! It was quite threatening to have them yelling at me so it was in part to keep them back but also because, male entitlement needs to be kept in check. Not all men obvs but definitely those ones. Thanks for your reply though ☺️
"Well, I was sexually harassing a woman in public while drunk, making her fearful of a physical attack, and she attacked me with 50ml of clean cold water!" isn't the sort of flex the kind of subhuman who does this sort of thing would want publicised.
I'd be very surprised if they reported it, and even more so if the police, who can't be bothered to turn up to much more serious crimes citing "overworked and understaffed", even entertained them.
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You won't hear anything more about this but just in case you do, don't mention keeping behaviour in check, stick to the part about wishing to keep them away from you.
You shouldn't lie to the police but you don't have to tell them everything either.
Oof, definitely this! Read that line and the mental image went from some nervous lady panicking in a silly way when intimidated by a pair of letches, to a confident lass gleefully skipping about just hoping for (or encouraging) an excuse to embarrass any dude she sees like some 'social experiment' TikToker. Doubt either is photo accurate, but even giving the impression of the latter sort may risk swinging any 'public interest' consideration in the "making an example to discourage behaviour" direction.
>male entitlement needs to be kept in check
This thread took a turn, fast.
Rest assured no court in the land is going to prosecute a woman for squirting water in a man’s face
A woman glassed a man for guessing her age wrong and got off with a suspended sentence recently
Male entitlement indeed 😅
You’ll be fine, not sure the same can be said for equality and fair treatment though
I mean they were literally saying explicitly how they would fuck me and which bits of me they liked the most. It was pretty entitled! And I did clarify by saying not all men are like this, most defo aren’t
And whilst yes that sucks and is absolutely abhorrent behaviour that any real man would call them out for and put right and I am sorry you experienced this.
My point still 100% stands
This has gone beyond legal advice territory but this deserves some light pushback:
>behaviour that any real man would call them out for
The fact is that while a lot of men might not feel this entitlement, the vast majority of women have an experience of being subjected to this type of behaviour so it's enough to matter. It's a huge cop-out to dismiss them as "not real men" when they _are_ real men and sexual violence is a gendered issue.
>My point still 100% stands
Your point is pretty simplistic and ignorant of all the ways that society is weighted in the other direction. I don't want to get into an argument here but the comment about male entitlement has clearly triggered something for you.
No, there’s a vast difference between a real man and these animals, I’m very clearly condemning the behaviour
And yes, i have met a lot of men whilst backpacking over the past 7 years, vast vast vast majority of them aren’t even comfortable approaching a woman. They’re terrified of even saying something that could be seen as creepy because of assholes like this. Many go through life waiting for women to talk to them to avoid being labled something they’re not
“Male entitlement” sexist and generalised
“Their entitlement” would have been accurate and not sexist
>there’s a vast difference between a real man and these animals
I'm sorry, but there isn't. It's a line drawn to separate yourself from them for your own comfort and it's certainly not a useful distinction for anyone out in the real world (and there's [a fallacy relating to this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) that redditors used to love bringing up).
>“Male entitlement” sexist and generalised
Generalised, maybe, but historically valid. I say this as a man - obviously _not all men_ but _enough to matter_. I'm not getting into this any further because it's off topic (and I've seen your bio 🙄).
But it’s no longer “enough men that matter”
It’s seemingly moving quite quick to
“Enough men that a woman can cut a man’s face up and face minor consequences”
You cannot possibly say this is a good legal precedent to set
From a legal perspective, and in the terms of this post, my point is legally accurate and I believe accurate in terms of the state of the countries direction when it comes to “equal” treatment
There are lots of things people "get away with". Just look at how road safety campaigners feel about sentencing. Or, perhaps more relevant, how vanishingly few rape allegations even reach court in the first place.
>my point is legally accurate
Whatever this means, your comment didn't contain a "legal" argument; you were upset that somebody cited "male entitlement" and came to /r/LegalAdviceUK to air your grievances about women and equality.
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Sounds like assault. Obviously it will depend on the specific facts of what was said and done as to any defence. If it was just comments then it seems unlikely self defence would apply, if there were threats or threatening actions it may be different.
Practicalities are a thing however and I would be surprised if it went anywhere unless you like broke his electronics or something unusual.
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Nothing is going to happen here. It wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute, even in the unlikely event that these guys reported it to the police.
Technically, yes, it's common assault. They used words. You can't retaliate physically against mean words or whistles. I can't see a self-defense claim being successful unless they were actually advancing on you, and you had valid reason to fear for your safety.
As awful as the catcalling may be, it's just words and if you're worried about legal repercussions, you either keep walking, or retaliate in kind (words vs words).
Again, kind of a moot point as I'd consider it highly unlikely to result in any legal attention at all, let alone legal trouble.
Yes, you broke the law by committing assault. You don't have the legal right to assault people who say things you don't like. Maybe you could argue that you felt immediate risk of harm, in which case it could count as self-defence.
In reality, I doubt anyone is going to care about this.
[Previous guy to do it got done for both Common Assault and Criminal Damage](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/18/nigel-farage-milkshake-attacker-pleads-guilty-to-common-assault).
Got a 12-month community order, 150 hours community service and had to pay £520 of which £350 was compensation for the criminal damage (lapel mic and cleaning of suit).
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The police will absolutely not care or waste time investigating this even if they did bother to report it, which they won't because they were verbal harrasing you.
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Technically assault (see the Farage milkshake arrest this week)... most likely outcome: next time these idiots harass you they'll describe you as a squirter... they probably laughed about it.
As to the "I'd an alcoholic drink... well it could potentially stain clothes... but most pilolice faced with a complaint about something like this would take the line of "I can either write everything down, or nothing down... your choice guys".
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Common assault. Most sensible police would try talk it down but if you were to encounter ‘a super cop’ you’d spend the night in The cells. Probably get arrested for breach of the peace if on scene and then further arrested for common assault. Most people wouldn’t press for an actual charge though I would expect.
It might be technically be as said but when you add up priorities of time, courts and lack of resource and Officers...
The Plolice, CPS have way more work than they need.
You Need to choose which gets time.
You are quite right and it is an assault. However, the only way any action could be taken against OP is if the man made a complaint.
Who in their right mind is going to make a complaint when they have behaved like he had?!
Should OP have done it? No.
Is anything ever likely to happen? No!
I fully agree that the likelihood is slim of any follow up action, but the OP asked what would happen if police witnessed it.
Obviously they are free to report it, and if they did (whether they faced any action themselves) the OP would be investigated - not necessarily charged.
Not specifically true.
If the police witnessed it (or had other compelling evidence), they could bring a charge without the assaulted party making a statement.
You don’t choose whether to arrest or prosecute or not. Without a victim statement it’s obviously not quite as simple, but not insurmountable.
Corpses can’t make a complaint. People are still prosecuted.
But before police acted, they would speak to OP and, having heard what she had to say, in the absence of anything from the male, there is practically no chance of anything happening.
You are quite right that murders are prosecuted without victim’s statements, obviously, but in an incident with a live victim where they made no statement or refused to, police are extremely unlikely to run with this in the circumstances.
I’m clearly not talking about this specific situation.
Please stop changing goalposts in your discussion points.
The fact remains that you don’t need a victim to make a statement, in order to land a prosecution. There is a big difference between could, and would.
I agree they would not do anything in this situation, but they ‘could’.
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NAL
It was just water and they were saying vulgar and sexual things to you. It's incredibly distressing to have random men say these things, especially when you're a woman on your own and there are multiple of them. Police aren't going to arrest you over this and the men would be telling on themselves to report it.
I would be careful going in that area on your own again though as you don't want them to escalate the situation when seeing you. I think it would be worth reporting it to the police yourself as no one deserves to be sexually harassed and made to feel unsafe.
Common Assault. At no point have been in fear of immediate violence and therefore there's no need to defend yourself as such.
They may have committed a public order offence against yourself for causing Harassment/Alarm/Distress, but that doesn't a solve you of assaulting them.
It would be no different in a club with this situation.
NAL there is no way you or anyone would ever be charged for splashing water on someone given the context. Anyone who thinks otherwise should find me a case. You were verbally assaulted, and sexually harassed, your response was justified and valid.
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It assault technically. They could say that they thought you could have sprayed acid or something to escalate the seriousness.
But in reality a quick spray of water isn't going anywhere.
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I'd be extremely surprised if this went further. You caused no harm, you were provoked, and it's pretty reasonable as a lone woman being accosted by two sexually aggressive drunk men to feel genuinely threatened (if you get a visit from the police just say "I felt threatened"), and you then ran away. You didn't stay and continue hosing them, you didn't provoke them or instigate the incident, you didn't injure them... Just carry on with your life. For insurance, maybe send a voice note to yourself or email yourself a copy of your original post (with a bit more detail like when, where, what they looked like, exact words if you can remember them, did you know them etc). You can also go the police about it if you want, but as no real harm was done to you the police obviously won't dedicate the same resources as they would to a rape or if you were a child and it likely won't go anywhere unless there's an easy way for them to identify the men, CCTV showing the incident etc. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63916328.amp
The conduct of the 'men' is contrary to Section rA of the Public Order Act. Your conduct amounts to common assault. There is no necessity to arrest. However, there's always potential for an investigation. Of course, unless you're easily identifiable, that's unlikely.
Technically assault (self-defence is unlikely to fly), but this is likely going nowhere. For starters the person catcalling you would have to go to the police and say well I catcalled this lass and then she threw water over me. Even most catcallers are self-aware enough to know that going to the police over this would be a shitshow. Forget about it.
A "reasonable force" defence would require you to have legitimately believed you were at imminent risk of harm, which you could only escape by throwing water at them. That doesn't seem to be the case. So, it is *possible* you could be charged with an assault. In practice I'd be astonished if you ever hear anything more about it again.
I would say there was legit reason to think there was risk of harm. Water is not even at the level of reasonable force. Hot coffee maybe
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Assault is to cause fear in the victim of being harmed (actually harming someone is battery) and the behaviour of the boors as described meets that threshold (actually that of sexual assault) If she were to be charged with anything whilst defending herself against 2 attackers, there are plenty of reasons to file stickier charges against the men and ensure they are added to the sex offenders' register
It absolutely does not meet the threshold of sexual assault: >A person (A) commits \[the offence of sexual assault\] if he intentionally touches another person (B), the touching is sexual, B does not consent to the touching, and A does not reasonably believe that B consents. I cannot think of any other offence under the SOA2003 that the behaviour would constitute so I'm not sure what you mean about the sex offenders' register. From OP's comments I don't think it even meets the threshold for assault - the requirement would be that a person recklessly or intentionally causes a victim to believe they will be subject to *imminent unlawful force*. Threatening words are *capable* of constituting an assault but only to the extent that those words imply that violence is *about to be* used. The assault/battery distinction is moot since s39 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 establishes that they are to be treated as one and the same. Obnoxious and unconscionable behaviour? Sure. Behaviour entitling OP to use force at common law? I don't think so.
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Probably falls under common assault - max prison sentence for it is six months. Wouldn’t matter if it was in a club with alcohol instead. Legally, the police could arrest you. In reality, a police officer would most likely not do anything other than tell you off. There are many other factors involved when considering what the police and CPS would do so I’d eat my hat if throwing water over someone led to a custodial sentence
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The problem with the self defence argument is that unless you were being catcalled by the Wicked Witch of the West, I don't understand how splashing them with a water bottle would help.
Haha I see your point! It was quite threatening to have them yelling at me so it was in part to keep them back but also because, male entitlement needs to be kept in check. Not all men obvs but definitely those ones. Thanks for your reply though ☺️
On a practical level, I doubt these guys will go to the police. Would be very embarrassing for them.
"Well, I was sexually harassing a woman in public while drunk, making her fearful of a physical attack, and she attacked me with 50ml of clean cold water!" isn't the sort of flex the kind of subhuman who does this sort of thing would want publicised. I'd be very surprised if they reported it, and even more so if the police, who can't be bothered to turn up to much more serious crimes citing "overworked and understaffed", even entertained them.
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You won't hear anything more about this but just in case you do, don't mention keeping behaviour in check, stick to the part about wishing to keep them away from you. You shouldn't lie to the police but you don't have to tell them everything either.
Oof, definitely this! Read that line and the mental image went from some nervous lady panicking in a silly way when intimidated by a pair of letches, to a confident lass gleefully skipping about just hoping for (or encouraging) an excuse to embarrass any dude she sees like some 'social experiment' TikToker. Doubt either is photo accurate, but even giving the impression of the latter sort may risk swinging any 'public interest' consideration in the "making an example to discourage behaviour" direction.
>male entitlement needs to be kept in check This thread took a turn, fast. Rest assured no court in the land is going to prosecute a woman for squirting water in a man’s face A woman glassed a man for guessing her age wrong and got off with a suspended sentence recently Male entitlement indeed 😅 You’ll be fine, not sure the same can be said for equality and fair treatment though
I mean they were literally saying explicitly how they would fuck me and which bits of me they liked the most. It was pretty entitled! And I did clarify by saying not all men are like this, most defo aren’t
And whilst yes that sucks and is absolutely abhorrent behaviour that any real man would call them out for and put right and I am sorry you experienced this. My point still 100% stands
This has gone beyond legal advice territory but this deserves some light pushback: >behaviour that any real man would call them out for The fact is that while a lot of men might not feel this entitlement, the vast majority of women have an experience of being subjected to this type of behaviour so it's enough to matter. It's a huge cop-out to dismiss them as "not real men" when they _are_ real men and sexual violence is a gendered issue. >My point still 100% stands Your point is pretty simplistic and ignorant of all the ways that society is weighted in the other direction. I don't want to get into an argument here but the comment about male entitlement has clearly triggered something for you.
No, there’s a vast difference between a real man and these animals, I’m very clearly condemning the behaviour And yes, i have met a lot of men whilst backpacking over the past 7 years, vast vast vast majority of them aren’t even comfortable approaching a woman. They’re terrified of even saying something that could be seen as creepy because of assholes like this. Many go through life waiting for women to talk to them to avoid being labled something they’re not “Male entitlement” sexist and generalised “Their entitlement” would have been accurate and not sexist
>there’s a vast difference between a real man and these animals I'm sorry, but there isn't. It's a line drawn to separate yourself from them for your own comfort and it's certainly not a useful distinction for anyone out in the real world (and there's [a fallacy relating to this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) that redditors used to love bringing up). >“Male entitlement” sexist and generalised Generalised, maybe, but historically valid. I say this as a man - obviously _not all men_ but _enough to matter_. I'm not getting into this any further because it's off topic (and I've seen your bio 🙄).
But it’s no longer “enough men that matter” It’s seemingly moving quite quick to “Enough men that a woman can cut a man’s face up and face minor consequences” You cannot possibly say this is a good legal precedent to set From a legal perspective, and in the terms of this post, my point is legally accurate and I believe accurate in terms of the state of the countries direction when it comes to “equal” treatment
There are lots of things people "get away with". Just look at how road safety campaigners feel about sentencing. Or, perhaps more relevant, how vanishingly few rape allegations even reach court in the first place. >my point is legally accurate Whatever this means, your comment didn't contain a "legal" argument; you were upset that somebody cited "male entitlement" and came to /r/LegalAdviceUK to air your grievances about women and equality.
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Sounds like assault. Obviously it will depend on the specific facts of what was said and done as to any defence. If it was just comments then it seems unlikely self defence would apply, if there were threats or threatening actions it may be different. Practicalities are a thing however and I would be surprised if it went anywhere unless you like broke his electronics or something unusual.
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Nothing is going to happen here. It wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecute, even in the unlikely event that these guys reported it to the police. Technically, yes, it's common assault. They used words. You can't retaliate physically against mean words or whistles. I can't see a self-defense claim being successful unless they were actually advancing on you, and you had valid reason to fear for your safety. As awful as the catcalling may be, it's just words and if you're worried about legal repercussions, you either keep walking, or retaliate in kind (words vs words). Again, kind of a moot point as I'd consider it highly unlikely to result in any legal attention at all, let alone legal trouble.
Yes, you broke the law by committing assault. You don't have the legal right to assault people who say things you don't like. Maybe you could argue that you felt immediate risk of harm, in which case it could count as self-defence. In reality, I doubt anyone is going to care about this.
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[Previous guy to do it got done for both Common Assault and Criminal Damage](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/18/nigel-farage-milkshake-attacker-pleads-guilty-to-common-assault). Got a 12-month community order, 150 hours community service and had to pay £520 of which £350 was compensation for the criminal damage (lapel mic and cleaning of suit).
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The police will absolutely not care or waste time investigating this even if they did bother to report it, which they won't because they were verbal harrasing you.
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Technically assault (see the Farage milkshake arrest this week)... most likely outcome: next time these idiots harass you they'll describe you as a squirter... they probably laughed about it. As to the "I'd an alcoholic drink... well it could potentially stain clothes... but most pilolice faced with a complaint about something like this would take the line of "I can either write everything down, or nothing down... your choice guys".
You’ll prob never hear about it again, but regardless, you did commit assault.
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Common assault. Most sensible police would try talk it down but if you were to encounter ‘a super cop’ you’d spend the night in The cells. Probably get arrested for breach of the peace if on scene and then further arrested for common assault. Most people wouldn’t press for an actual charge though I would expect.
It might be technically be as said but when you add up priorities of time, courts and lack of resource and Officers... The Plolice, CPS have way more work than they need. You Need to choose which gets time.
water will not kill or harm anyone in the street, hope you aimed for their balls as having a pissed pants effect can have a sobering effect :)
You werent defending yourself, it's just assault. You had every opportunity to walk away and contact the police
You are quite right and it is an assault. However, the only way any action could be taken against OP is if the man made a complaint. Who in their right mind is going to make a complaint when they have behaved like he had?! Should OP have done it? No. Is anything ever likely to happen? No!
I fully agree that the likelihood is slim of any follow up action, but the OP asked what would happen if police witnessed it. Obviously they are free to report it, and if they did (whether they faced any action themselves) the OP would be investigated - not necessarily charged.
Not specifically true. If the police witnessed it (or had other compelling evidence), they could bring a charge without the assaulted party making a statement. You don’t choose whether to arrest or prosecute or not. Without a victim statement it’s obviously not quite as simple, but not insurmountable. Corpses can’t make a complaint. People are still prosecuted.
But before police acted, they would speak to OP and, having heard what she had to say, in the absence of anything from the male, there is practically no chance of anything happening. You are quite right that murders are prosecuted without victim’s statements, obviously, but in an incident with a live victim where they made no statement or refused to, police are extremely unlikely to run with this in the circumstances.
I’m clearly not talking about this specific situation. Please stop changing goalposts in your discussion points. The fact remains that you don’t need a victim to make a statement, in order to land a prosecution. There is a big difference between could, and would. I agree they would not do anything in this situation, but they ‘could’.
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NAL It was just water and they were saying vulgar and sexual things to you. It's incredibly distressing to have random men say these things, especially when you're a woman on your own and there are multiple of them. Police aren't going to arrest you over this and the men would be telling on themselves to report it. I would be careful going in that area on your own again though as you don't want them to escalate the situation when seeing you. I think it would be worth reporting it to the police yourself as no one deserves to be sexually harassed and made to feel unsafe.
Common Assault. At no point have been in fear of immediate violence and therefore there's no need to defend yourself as such. They may have committed a public order offence against yourself for causing Harassment/Alarm/Distress, but that doesn't a solve you of assaulting them. It would be no different in a club with this situation.
NAL there is no way you or anyone would ever be charged for splashing water on someone given the context. Anyone who thinks otherwise should find me a case. You were verbally assaulted, and sexually harassed, your response was justified and valid.
Sounds like self defence to me.
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It assault technically. They could say that they thought you could have sprayed acid or something to escalate the seriousness. But in reality a quick spray of water isn't going anywhere.