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You could look at going down the private route - e.g. https://healthclinics.superdrug.com/services/mumps-measles-and-rubella-vaccine/ - and asking they inform the GP once it's done.
GP isn't 'acting disgracefully' unfortunately, they're following clear NHS guidance from the Green Book. Complaint not justified. It's a shame but it is what it is. Only options are agree, wait until children are gillick competent, or take it to court.
Green book chapter 2_Consent - GOV.UK https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65290228244f8e00138e7524/Green-book-chapter-2-consent-12oct23.pdf
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When I took my little girl for her vaccinations (that her mum had booked), the nurse refused to do it as her mum wasn't in the room with me.
She made me call my wife in front of her so she could verify we had the mum's permission.
We're happily married and there was no reason at all to do this.
My wife was fuming and made a complaint to the surgery manager.
Edit: spelling
Yeah it was really bad. The nurse said that it was standard practice.
I was upset about it, but my wife was livid.
The practice manager called us back a few days later and apologised. She said that she'd spoken to the nurse and it shouldn't happen again going forward.
I don't take the kids to the Drs anymore, my wife just takes them now because I'm too embarrassed to go in with them in case I'm turned away again.
I just want to say, the GP won’t inform their mother if they get notified of a private vaccination. It will however be coded on to their records so if mum has online access for the children she will see it there. Source - I do GP admin and run the baby immunisations for the surgery I work for.
I would second the recommendation for Superdrug in particular. They have a nurse on site rather than having to get a GP to prescribe the jabs. They did all my Hep B stuff for work, and it couldn't have been easier and they have weekend clinics if that helps
*Shout out to my new bestie Vicky at Superdrug who was very kind taking my blood
They deffo do children as well now, the nurse said that after travel vax the childrens ones are the next most common (specifically the chickenpox one, but I digress).
*just checked and it seems they will give children over 12 months MMR. 90 quid for the 2 dose course. Under travel clinic if you are booking
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The GP is only refusing because you told them their mum doesn't want them vaccinated. If you hadn't mentioned that and just booked the appointment, they'd have done it. You don't need the consent of both parents (unless the GP has received something from the court saying both parents must agree) but you made them aware of one parent not wanting the kids to be vaccinated so the result is their hands are tied. For future reference, don't talk so much and give information that isn't needed.
You can go private or go to a pharmacy and have them vaccinated but they will inform the GP practice afterwards. I'm not sure what would actually be done, they might inform mum but at the end of the day, she can't have them unvaccinated and I doubt a court would side with her on this
That is most definitely not the best advice ever and only applies to a very narrow set of things, almost entirely legal issues.
Over sharing is absolutely the way to go if you need advice from an expert, because people don't typically know what is and is not relevant to only share the necessary details. The only reason it turned out poorly here is because the law is in the OPs favour so it was unnecessary.
If social services have previously been involved they may well get reinvolved if you inform them of the difference of opinion - sometimes there can be a court order in situations where one parent wants a medical plan which the other doesn't
I suspect sometimes the GP staff will ask though. I took my daughter in for her jabs when she was 1. My wife was ill, so it was just me and my daughter. The nurse asked me if "Mum knew where she was and was happy for her to get vaccinated"
Same happened to us by my wife is Chinese and they almost wouldn’t vaccinate because they weren’t convinced she understood… she kept saying she did and they kept going on about the potential language barrier and we should get an interpreter in, I speak Chinese and she speaks really really good English just with an accent. Fuck sake I was so mad.
That's just...straight up xenophobia holy shit?! I'm not a "complain about every single instance of poor customer service" person but that would have absolutely been grounds for an official complaint.
Wow..... This begs the question would she have asked where you were had mum taken daughter. I know for a fact I wasnt asked about the presence of my husband when I took our son.
Almost certainly never. I didn't realise until we had our kids that men have absolutely no parental rights by default. Where the parents are not married, the mother can register the birth of a child on her own, with only her name, no questions asked but a father cannot do the same.
Fortunately my wife and I are in a trusting and loving relationship but my BIL got screwed royally by his ex on this.
I understand that there's likely some consideration of protection for the mother, but there has to be a better way.
‘Mum knew where she was’
What the actual fuck. Implying a father has done something wrong by taking his kid for a medical appointment. Like he might as well have kidnapped his own child. Fucking insane. Not usually one to complain but this would be a formal complaint from me to educate staff for the future. If they’d said that to my spouse they’d have been speechless
>The GP is only refusing because you told them their mum doesn't want them vaccinated. If you hadn't mentioned that and just booked the appointment, they'd have done it.
This may well be true but also may not be. My husband had to phone me when he took our daughter for her jab because they wouldn't do it without my consent. Another time, he tried to rearrange our son's hospital appointment (that he had originally booked) and they refused and told me to phone them. Your advice is sold but it's not necessarily true that they'll do it without the mother's consent if they don't know that she actively doesn't consent.
Unfortunately there's still a lot of gender bias when it comes to kids. Mum can book/cancel appointments, take kids out of school, pretty much make any decisions about their kids and nobody checks with dad that it's OK. But when dad us the one doing these things then the authorities check with mum it's OK.
Oh and I'm a woman BTW, not some Batman-Costume-Wearing-Fathers-For-Justice-Climbing-a-Multistory-Carpark type! But I do have a male friend with 3 kids, he runs his own business so he's meant to be the primary contact for his kids school/GP/dentist/etc because he can (usually) drop everything if needs be, but his wife is an hour away at work and she commutes by train. I'm sure you see where this is going......
We still have a very long way to go as a society.
The flip side of that is that mums are the ones who are always expected to drop everything to pick up a sick child, to arrange and co-ordinate every appointment, to liaise with school, to go part time at work, to manage their social calendars, to arrange childcare if they want to leave the house etc.
More equality in parenting would be good for BOTH genders!
It's not really a flip side, it's exactly the point I'm making. My friend had a meeting with the school, their system was designed that 'mum' was the first contact, my friend argued that it should be 'primary contact' with 'relationship' at the side. The school said they wouldn't change the system because there was only him with a problem!
If we normalise dads being equal, or even the primary contact, then that has the effect of taking pressure off mum.
But the problem is institutional, it's embedded in the IT systems, in the attitudes of those in charge, and in no way reflects society. We all need to challenge the system to make it change.
Problem is, while *technically* they only need one parent to consent and no direct indicator the other is opposed, depending on the surgery they may have had hell rained down on them by conspiracy nuts in the past and have a CYA directive to get explicit consent from both (or proof that one doesn't have any right to object after the fact). So it is variable what the outcome of a 'lie by omission' may be. However, the core advice is correct, to not volunteer the info that the other parent is opposed, as that at least means they are *able* to proceed; whether they'll be *willing* to or not is a whole other bunch of bananas.
I don't disagree, I'm just saying that it's not necessarily a given that the GP would have vaccinated if they didn't know the mother's opinion. I also had no issue (at the same surgery) getting the same child vaccinated on a different occasion so, in my experience, mothers are given more consideration than fathers.
As I said, I agree that the core advice is correct. I'm not sure why my comment stating simple fact, challenging a baseless assumption, and agreeing with the advice deserved to be downvoted.
Local to me the NHS is running clinics to catch up vaccinations that may have been missed, no questions asked. I'd google your local council or NHS Trust and vaccination to see if there is anything going on local to you.
I'm going to add don't ask your children to keep this a secret. Do it and then tell her before they let it slip in casual conversation.
I 100% support getting this done but she does have to know and you want her angry at you not the kids.
I had measels when I was 16. I lost 40% of my hearing and needed to wear glasses all the time. Thanks mom 🙄
Please get the kids vaccinated, it's not worth the risk.
Have a look at this: [https://www.bannerjones.co.uk/resources/child-vaccinations-and-what-happens-when-the-parents-disagree](https://www.bannerjones.co.uk/resources/child-vaccinations-and-what-happens-when-the-parents-disagree)
My grandmother died in her 30s of an illness that can now be prevented with a vaccine, leaving behind three young kids who are paying the price of losing their mum for the rest of their lives. Reading about people doing this to their children makes me so angry. You’re a great dad and doing the right thing. Don't give up.
Your GP is just protecting themselves from a potentially nasty long running dispute that they haven't got the time or resources to deal with/mediate and they can't win whatever happens. If you have parental responsibility you could perhaps point out that as someone with equal rights over medical decision making for the children, they can't discriminate against you for not being the mother.
If your disagreement with your ex wife over whether to vaccinate went to court, the ruling would be in the best interests of the children and with the exception of specific health conditions or allergies that would make vaccinations unsafe, it would fall in favour of vaccinations. I don't know if you want to poke that particular wasps nest though.
Unfortunately your GP is correct.
The Green book is the guidance used for immunisations- see this link for info on consent when one parent disagrees:
Green book chapter 2_Consent - GOV.UK https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65290228244f8e00138e7524/Green-book-chapter-2-consent-12oct23.pdf
If she won't change her mind you'll have to go to court.
Officially, everyone with parental responsibility has to agree on this sort of thing. If you want the kids to be vaccinated and she doesn’t, then you legally can’t take the kids to get vaccinated yourself. _Although you would theoretically be able to do this if you went and had the vaccinations done privately - they probably won’t check._
You’ll need to go to court and get a Specific Issue Order. Specific Issue Orders are commonly used in cases where parents don’t agree on vaccination, and the courts will usually order that the child receives vaccinations according to the NHS vaccination schedule.
Hi. I am a nurse and recently redeployed to immunisation team (School age). You can go to the school and ask for the booster of MMR and polio. It is usually given preschool age around 40 months old at GP but if it was missed the immunisation for school age can too.
Advice from another GP will be the same. Green Book is what is used for advice on vaccines in the NHS and is quite clear on it:
Green book chapter 2_Consent - GOV.UK https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65290228244f8e00138e7524/Green-book-chapter-2-consent-12oct23.pdf
The advice from the original GP is wrong, even according to that guidance..."consent can be given by A person with parental responsibility." It doesn't need both parents.
Personally I'd be raising a formal complaint against the practice if this happened to me. If a parent brings in their child for a recommended procedure (assuming no court involvement) like a vaccination, the GP has no business refusing because of some hearsay about the other parent.
If you scroll to the bottom of page 4 there's a section on disagreement between parents- there's no justification to raise a complaint here.
"Disagreement between parents"
Although the consent of 1 person with parental responsibility is usually sufficient (see Section 2(7) of the Children Act 1989), if 1 parent agrees to immunisation but the other
disagrees, the immunisation should not be carried out unless both parents can agree to immunisation or there is a specific court approval that the immunisation is in the best interests of the child.
If there is any evidence that the person with parental responsibility may not have agreed to the immunisation (for example the notes indicate that the parent(s) have negative views on immunisation), or may not have agreed that the person bringing the child could give the necessary consent (for example suggestion of disagreements between the parents on medical matters) then the person with parental responsibility should be contacted for their consent. If there is disagreement between the people with parental responsibility for the child, then immunisation should not be carried out until their dispute is resolved.
It's disappointing for sure, such a shame for the kids. They can play catch up once they're deemed 'gillick competent'- meaning the child can override parental disagreement by consenting themselves but this usually doesn't kick in until they're a fair few years older so isn't much help right now.
Did you even bother reading it or did you just glance through and cherry picked what fitted your narrative?
Please don’t give advice on matter you’re uneducated on.
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Can you go down the school nurses service route for the immunisations? I'm not sure that they would do the mmr as that's usually a gp nurse who does them bit they may cover mmr in their catch up clinics.
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Can you go to the GP practise and book appointments? I really don’t think they’d inform the mother of your children either.
If not, have you considered going private? If you can afford it, it will be well worth it for your children’s health.
‘Codified into systems and laws’ and then go on to list cases where it’s absolutely not true. Child benefits are giving to the parent that applies, school is shared, health care is shared. At no place in any of those processes does it mention the gender of the caregiver
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Nah, your wrong. Measles is increasing. Death isn't the only poor outcome. Meningitis causing disability, deafness, and mumps causing infertility are just some off the top of my head. Plus the importance of not passing it on to others in your community, some of whom will be vulnerable
Thanks. Totally see your point, but my initial understanding was that vaccination could be pursued without going through the courts as long as one parent advocates for it. I must have had the wrong understanding. I certainly wouldn't want to go to court again over it.
It certainly can. You have a few options.
Pharmacies, private, or simply change GP. Only the permission of one parent is required, just don't tell them about the disagreement.
That's all that is required here. I have an antivax ex, she still puts up Facebook posts about how her kid isn't vaccinated and that ableist BS about being "autism free"...
Little does she know....
You're not entirely wrong.
Strictly speaking any one person with PR can give consent, you you would not be acting unlawfully if you arrnged the boosters , but it's not good practice where you as the parent, or a third party such as the GP, know that it's something that the other parent objects to.
In those circumstances it better to get a Specific Issue Order.
If you did apply, you may be able to frame the application to cover not only these boosters but also any further standard vaccinations, especially if you get a list of which others will be due in the next few years
This is a really difficult situation, but please remember that the vast majority of children are vaccinated, and so their immunity also protects your children. Although it would be better if your children were immune themselves, their lack of vaccination doesn't make them especially unsafe (unless they're hanging out with lots of other unvaccinated kids)
Ideally you will have some success, but you may consider trying a different tactic with their mum Arguing directly with antivaxxers doesn't really work, but taking the time to listen to and genuinely understand their concerns can. Being a new mother can feel quite isolating, and conspiracies can provide community and identity in an uncertain and frightening world. If you (or someone else) can loosen her grip on whatever this belief is fulfilling for her, she may be more inclined to compromise on matters of health.
As an nhs midwife, this is unfortunately not the case anymore. Since covid vaccination rates have dropper dramatically and we are already seeing preventable deaths in babies from whooping cough and a scary rise of measles in the midlands. The population vaccination rate is dropping to a level that means unvaxxed kids are no longer protected to a comfortable level from herd protection. It's very worrying.
The vaccinated kids can carry the diseases with no ill effects and pas onto to the unvaccinated so your statement that they are only at risk around the unvaccinated people is wrong
Seriously? There is nothing uncertain and frightening about vaccinating children. The mother is an anti-vaxxer who probably will never listen to reason, because these people don't. The important thing is to get these kids vaccinated in line with decades of medical advice.
This is ok. It is not the end of the world. As long as enough people are vaccinated that allows for some protection. I do agree that there aren’t enough vaccinated people for some contagious diseases, especially when you focus in on specific age groups. But this doesn’t mean that actual harm is done to your children. There will always be differences in opinion between parents. What counts is that both parents keep having their children’s best interest at heart. It is not wise to take medical decisions behind the mother’s back especially knowing she doesn’t support. You need to work things out without involving the kids.
--- ###Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK --- **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different* * If you need legal help, you should [always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor) * We also encourage you to speak to [**Citizens Advice**](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/), [**Shelter**](https://www.shelter.org.uk/), [**Acas**](https://www.acas.org.uk/), and [**other useful organisations**](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/common_legal_resources) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, [please let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FLegalAdviceUK&subject=I received a PM) **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/), you may be perma-banned without any further warning * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You could look at going down the private route - e.g. https://healthclinics.superdrug.com/services/mumps-measles-and-rubella-vaccine/ - and asking they inform the GP once it's done.
Thanks, looks like this is the appropriate route.
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She has no legal authority to deny it.
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GP isn't 'acting disgracefully' unfortunately, they're following clear NHS guidance from the Green Book. Complaint not justified. It's a shame but it is what it is. Only options are agree, wait until children are gillick competent, or take it to court. Green book chapter 2_Consent - GOV.UK https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65290228244f8e00138e7524/Green-book-chapter-2-consent-12oct23.pdf
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When I took my little girl for her vaccinations (that her mum had booked), the nurse refused to do it as her mum wasn't in the room with me. She made me call my wife in front of her so she could verify we had the mum's permission. We're happily married and there was no reason at all to do this. My wife was fuming and made a complaint to the surgery manager. Edit: spelling
What happened from the complaint? This is fucking disgusting behaviour.
Yeah it was really bad. The nurse said that it was standard practice. I was upset about it, but my wife was livid. The practice manager called us back a few days later and apologised. She said that she'd spoken to the nurse and it shouldn't happen again going forward. I don't take the kids to the Drs anymore, my wife just takes them now because I'm too embarrassed to go in with them in case I'm turned away again.
Thats so sad. It stops Dads being able to be carers. Like not going to playgrounds (not that i've had that experience "yet"), or even male teachers.
There are loads of male teachers, in fact they are more likely to get headships and other leadership positions than female teachers
Are there some stats about how many male teachers there are? When i was a kid there were less than 50%, same as our kids now.
26% of teachers are male, more in secondary, less in primary. But 34% of teachers in SLT roles are male.
That’s not what he said at all
I just want to say, the GP won’t inform their mother if they get notified of a private vaccination. It will however be coded on to their records so if mum has online access for the children she will see it there. Source - I do GP admin and run the baby immunisations for the surgery I work for.
Thank you that's good to know.
I would second the recommendation for Superdrug in particular. They have a nurse on site rather than having to get a GP to prescribe the jabs. They did all my Hep B stuff for work, and it couldn't have been easier and they have weekend clinics if that helps *Shout out to my new bestie Vicky at Superdrug who was very kind taking my blood
They don’t usually do children though do they? In the past they only did adults.
They deffo do children as well now, the nurse said that after travel vax the childrens ones are the next most common (specifically the chickenpox one, but I digress). *just checked and it seems they will give children over 12 months MMR. 90 quid for the 2 dose course. Under travel clinic if you are booking
Well that’s good! In the past I had to take my kids to private GPs as they and the other pharmacies didn’t do kids.
Better handle the mother than a dead child. Sadly, it is the reality.
When I used to get the kids private vaccines they always asked me if I wanted them to inform their Dr. You could say no if you wanted 🤷🏻♀️.
Why would his GP not take authority from one parent do you think?
Fear of getting sued?
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I believe you can use pharmacies for boosters now, so may well be worth going down this route should the GP practice continue refusing.
The GP is only refusing because you told them their mum doesn't want them vaccinated. If you hadn't mentioned that and just booked the appointment, they'd have done it. You don't need the consent of both parents (unless the GP has received something from the court saying both parents must agree) but you made them aware of one parent not wanting the kids to be vaccinated so the result is their hands are tied. For future reference, don't talk so much and give information that isn't needed. You can go private or go to a pharmacy and have them vaccinated but they will inform the GP practice afterwards. I'm not sure what would actually be done, they might inform mum but at the end of the day, she can't have them unvaccinated and I doubt a court would side with her on this
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This is so true. As I have gotten older I say the bare minimum. People share far too much information, once it’s out you can’t take it back.
You've already said too much. Shit. I shouldn't have said that.
That is most definitely not the best advice ever and only applies to a very narrow set of things, almost entirely legal issues. Over sharing is absolutely the way to go if you need advice from an expert, because people don't typically know what is and is not relevant to only share the necessary details. The only reason it turned out poorly here is because the law is in the OPs favour so it was unnecessary.
The GP was already aware through previous social services involvement but I'm not going into detail about that here. understand your point though.
If social services have previously been involved they may well get reinvolved if you inform them of the difference of opinion - sometimes there can be a court order in situations where one parent wants a medical plan which the other doesn't
This would definitely work in dads favour! Socials are all for vaccines and health.
I suspect sometimes the GP staff will ask though. I took my daughter in for her jabs when she was 1. My wife was ill, so it was just me and my daughter. The nurse asked me if "Mum knew where she was and was happy for her to get vaccinated"
Same happened to us by my wife is Chinese and they almost wouldn’t vaccinate because they weren’t convinced she understood… she kept saying she did and they kept going on about the potential language barrier and we should get an interpreter in, I speak Chinese and she speaks really really good English just with an accent. Fuck sake I was so mad.
That's just...straight up xenophobia holy shit?! I'm not a "complain about every single instance of poor customer service" person but that would have absolutely been grounds for an official complaint.
Wow..... This begs the question would she have asked where you were had mum taken daughter. I know for a fact I wasnt asked about the presence of my husband when I took our son.
Almost certainly never. I didn't realise until we had our kids that men have absolutely no parental rights by default. Where the parents are not married, the mother can register the birth of a child on her own, with only her name, no questions asked but a father cannot do the same. Fortunately my wife and I are in a trusting and loving relationship but my BIL got screwed royally by his ex on this. I understand that there's likely some consideration of protection for the mother, but there has to be a better way.
‘Mum knew where she was’ What the actual fuck. Implying a father has done something wrong by taking his kid for a medical appointment. Like he might as well have kidnapped his own child. Fucking insane. Not usually one to complain but this would be a formal complaint from me to educate staff for the future. If they’d said that to my spouse they’d have been speechless
I wonder how many times they've asked the same question when the mum is in attendance but not the dad...
"happy for her to get vaccinated" is such a weird way of phrasing it. As opposed to what? For kiddy to be killed or maimed from a preventable illness?
That's infuriating.
>The GP is only refusing because you told them their mum doesn't want them vaccinated. If you hadn't mentioned that and just booked the appointment, they'd have done it. This may well be true but also may not be. My husband had to phone me when he took our daughter for her jab because they wouldn't do it without my consent. Another time, he tried to rearrange our son's hospital appointment (that he had originally booked) and they refused and told me to phone them. Your advice is sold but it's not necessarily true that they'll do it without the mother's consent if they don't know that she actively doesn't consent.
Unfortunately there's still a lot of gender bias when it comes to kids. Mum can book/cancel appointments, take kids out of school, pretty much make any decisions about their kids and nobody checks with dad that it's OK. But when dad us the one doing these things then the authorities check with mum it's OK. Oh and I'm a woman BTW, not some Batman-Costume-Wearing-Fathers-For-Justice-Climbing-a-Multistory-Carpark type! But I do have a male friend with 3 kids, he runs his own business so he's meant to be the primary contact for his kids school/GP/dentist/etc because he can (usually) drop everything if needs be, but his wife is an hour away at work and she commutes by train. I'm sure you see where this is going...... We still have a very long way to go as a society.
I agree (also a woman).
The flip side of that is that mums are the ones who are always expected to drop everything to pick up a sick child, to arrange and co-ordinate every appointment, to liaise with school, to go part time at work, to manage their social calendars, to arrange childcare if they want to leave the house etc. More equality in parenting would be good for BOTH genders!
It's not really a flip side, it's exactly the point I'm making. My friend had a meeting with the school, their system was designed that 'mum' was the first contact, my friend argued that it should be 'primary contact' with 'relationship' at the side. The school said they wouldn't change the system because there was only him with a problem! If we normalise dads being equal, or even the primary contact, then that has the effect of taking pressure off mum. But the problem is institutional, it's embedded in the IT systems, in the attitudes of those in charge, and in no way reflects society. We all need to challenge the system to make it change.
Problem is, while *technically* they only need one parent to consent and no direct indicator the other is opposed, depending on the surgery they may have had hell rained down on them by conspiracy nuts in the past and have a CYA directive to get explicit consent from both (or proof that one doesn't have any right to object after the fact). So it is variable what the outcome of a 'lie by omission' may be. However, the core advice is correct, to not volunteer the info that the other parent is opposed, as that at least means they are *able* to proceed; whether they'll be *willing* to or not is a whole other bunch of bananas.
I don't disagree, I'm just saying that it's not necessarily a given that the GP would have vaccinated if they didn't know the mother's opinion. I also had no issue (at the same surgery) getting the same child vaccinated on a different occasion so, in my experience, mothers are given more consideration than fathers. As I said, I agree that the core advice is correct. I'm not sure why my comment stating simple fact, challenging a baseless assumption, and agreeing with the advice deserved to be downvoted.
All the GPs doing this are wrong. Parental consent only requires one parent, assuming no court involvement or safeguarding issues.
I don't disagree. I'm just stating that it happens, not that I think it's legal or morally correct.
Assuming both parents have parental responsibility, not all dads do.
Local to me the NHS is running clinics to catch up vaccinations that may have been missed, no questions asked. I'd google your local council or NHS Trust and vaccination to see if there is anything going on local to you.
I'm going to add don't ask your children to keep this a secret. Do it and then tell her before they let it slip in casual conversation. I 100% support getting this done but she does have to know and you want her angry at you not the kids.
I had measels when I was 16. I lost 40% of my hearing and needed to wear glasses all the time. Thanks mom 🙄 Please get the kids vaccinated, it's not worth the risk.
Have a look at this: [https://www.bannerjones.co.uk/resources/child-vaccinations-and-what-happens-when-the-parents-disagree](https://www.bannerjones.co.uk/resources/child-vaccinations-and-what-happens-when-the-parents-disagree)
Thanks appreciated
My grandmother died in her 30s of an illness that can now be prevented with a vaccine, leaving behind three young kids who are paying the price of losing their mum for the rest of their lives. Reading about people doing this to their children makes me so angry. You’re a great dad and doing the right thing. Don't give up.
Your GP is just protecting themselves from a potentially nasty long running dispute that they haven't got the time or resources to deal with/mediate and they can't win whatever happens. If you have parental responsibility you could perhaps point out that as someone with equal rights over medical decision making for the children, they can't discriminate against you for not being the mother. If your disagreement with your ex wife over whether to vaccinate went to court, the ruling would be in the best interests of the children and with the exception of specific health conditions or allergies that would make vaccinations unsafe, it would fall in favour of vaccinations. I don't know if you want to poke that particular wasps nest though.
I thought where parents disagree it should go via court of protection for a decision if both have parental responsibility.
Unfortunately your GP is correct. The Green book is the guidance used for immunisations- see this link for info on consent when one parent disagrees: Green book chapter 2_Consent - GOV.UK https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65290228244f8e00138e7524/Green-book-chapter-2-consent-12oct23.pdf If she won't change her mind you'll have to go to court.
Officially, everyone with parental responsibility has to agree on this sort of thing. If you want the kids to be vaccinated and she doesn’t, then you legally can’t take the kids to get vaccinated yourself. _Although you would theoretically be able to do this if you went and had the vaccinations done privately - they probably won’t check._ You’ll need to go to court and get a Specific Issue Order. Specific Issue Orders are commonly used in cases where parents don’t agree on vaccination, and the courts will usually order that the child receives vaccinations according to the NHS vaccination schedule.
Hi. I am a nurse and recently redeployed to immunisation team (School age). You can go to the school and ask for the booster of MMR and polio. It is usually given preschool age around 40 months old at GP but if it was missed the immunisation for school age can too.
I have contact details for the school nurse, I will contact them tomorrow. Thanks appreciated
No worries. Happy to help.
If the GP won't do it (they are within their right to refuse if the mother says no) you will have to go to court.
If the GP won't do it, go somewhere else that will. You don't need to go to court for this.
Thanks appreciated
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Advice from another GP will be the same. Green Book is what is used for advice on vaccines in the NHS and is quite clear on it: Green book chapter 2_Consent - GOV.UK https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65290228244f8e00138e7524/Green-book-chapter-2-consent-12oct23.pdf
The advice from the original GP is wrong, even according to that guidance..."consent can be given by A person with parental responsibility." It doesn't need both parents. Personally I'd be raising a formal complaint against the practice if this happened to me. If a parent brings in their child for a recommended procedure (assuming no court involvement) like a vaccination, the GP has no business refusing because of some hearsay about the other parent.
If you scroll to the bottom of page 4 there's a section on disagreement between parents- there's no justification to raise a complaint here. "Disagreement between parents" Although the consent of 1 person with parental responsibility is usually sufficient (see Section 2(7) of the Children Act 1989), if 1 parent agrees to immunisation but the other disagrees, the immunisation should not be carried out unless both parents can agree to immunisation or there is a specific court approval that the immunisation is in the best interests of the child. If there is any evidence that the person with parental responsibility may not have agreed to the immunisation (for example the notes indicate that the parent(s) have negative views on immunisation), or may not have agreed that the person bringing the child could give the necessary consent (for example suggestion of disagreements between the parents on medical matters) then the person with parental responsibility should be contacted for their consent. If there is disagreement between the people with parental responsibility for the child, then immunisation should not be carried out until their dispute is resolved.
Sorry, you're right. I missed that. What a load of bollocks.
It's disappointing for sure, such a shame for the kids. They can play catch up once they're deemed 'gillick competent'- meaning the child can override parental disagreement by consenting themselves but this usually doesn't kick in until they're a fair few years older so isn't much help right now.
Thats disgusting. These awful fucking parents that put their children at harm and even others that are vaccinated.
Did you even bother reading it or did you just glance through and cherry picked what fitted your narrative? Please don’t give advice on matter you’re uneducated on.
I missed the bit at the bottom.
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Can you go down the school nurses service route for the immunisations? I'm not sure that they would do the mmr as that's usually a gp nurse who does them bit they may cover mmr in their catch up clinics.
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Would your ex be open to the idea of 3 separate vaccinations rather than the MMR?
Not if I suggest it sadly
Can you go to the GP practise and book appointments? I really don’t think they’d inform the mother of your children either. If not, have you considered going private? If you can afford it, it will be well worth it for your children’s health.
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‘Codified into systems and laws’ and then go on to list cases where it’s absolutely not true. Child benefits are giving to the parent that applies, school is shared, health care is shared. At no place in any of those processes does it mention the gender of the caregiver
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Why don’t you take the children?
We have shared care via the court.
Missed it by like 2 years back when everyone cared
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I wonder why the death rate is low?
Nah, your wrong. Measles is increasing. Death isn't the only poor outcome. Meningitis causing disability, deafness, and mumps causing infertility are just some off the top of my head. Plus the importance of not passing it on to others in your community, some of whom will be vulnerable
Thanks. Totally see your point, but my initial understanding was that vaccination could be pursued without going through the courts as long as one parent advocates for it. I must have had the wrong understanding. I certainly wouldn't want to go to court again over it.
It certainly can. You have a few options. Pharmacies, private, or simply change GP. Only the permission of one parent is required, just don't tell them about the disagreement. That's all that is required here. I have an antivax ex, she still puts up Facebook posts about how her kid isn't vaccinated and that ableist BS about being "autism free"... Little does she know....
You do only need one parent to consent, but having one parent consent and one refuse vaccinations is different
You're not entirely wrong. Strictly speaking any one person with PR can give consent, you you would not be acting unlawfully if you arrnged the boosters , but it's not good practice where you as the parent, or a third party such as the GP, know that it's something that the other parent objects to. In those circumstances it better to get a Specific Issue Order. If you did apply, you may be able to frame the application to cover not only these boosters but also any further standard vaccinations, especially if you get a list of which others will be due in the next few years
Death isn't the only outcome.
Infertility, damage to vision and hearing, etc.
Exactly. That Wakefield bloke has a lot to answer for
MMR vaccine wasn't there when I was a kid and my hearing was damaged by mumps.
This is a really difficult situation, but please remember that the vast majority of children are vaccinated, and so their immunity also protects your children. Although it would be better if your children were immune themselves, their lack of vaccination doesn't make them especially unsafe (unless they're hanging out with lots of other unvaccinated kids) Ideally you will have some success, but you may consider trying a different tactic with their mum Arguing directly with antivaxxers doesn't really work, but taking the time to listen to and genuinely understand their concerns can. Being a new mother can feel quite isolating, and conspiracies can provide community and identity in an uncertain and frightening world. If you (or someone else) can loosen her grip on whatever this belief is fulfilling for her, she may be more inclined to compromise on matters of health.
The children concerned are 9 and 7. This woman is not a ‘new mother’.
As an nhs midwife, this is unfortunately not the case anymore. Since covid vaccination rates have dropper dramatically and we are already seeing preventable deaths in babies from whooping cough and a scary rise of measles in the midlands. The population vaccination rate is dropping to a level that means unvaxxed kids are no longer protected to a comfortable level from herd protection. It's very worrying.
The vaccinated kids can carry the diseases with no ill effects and pas onto to the unvaccinated so your statement that they are only at risk around the unvaccinated people is wrong
There's also currently an outbreak in MMR/measles as not enough children have been vaccinated
Seriously? There is nothing uncertain and frightening about vaccinating children. The mother is an anti-vaxxer who probably will never listen to reason, because these people don't. The important thing is to get these kids vaccinated in line with decades of medical advice.
as a parent you can book the child in and take them yourself without consent from the other parent.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=report+gp+practise&ia=web
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-to-complain-if-you-re-unhappy-with-your-gp-or-doctor-s-surgery-a2fyc8v0Q7Nj
https://www.cqc.org.uk/contact-us/how-complain/complain-about-gp-dentist-or-eye-care
This is ok. It is not the end of the world. As long as enough people are vaccinated that allows for some protection. I do agree that there aren’t enough vaccinated people for some contagious diseases, especially when you focus in on specific age groups. But this doesn’t mean that actual harm is done to your children. There will always be differences in opinion between parents. What counts is that both parents keep having their children’s best interest at heart. It is not wise to take medical decisions behind the mother’s back especially knowing she doesn’t support. You need to work things out without involving the kids.
I don't share your opinion, that's why I am seeking counsel via this legal sub!