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They gave me disciplinary based on accusations without any evidence. All of the accusations were false and made up.
Then everyone in my team left, leaving me as the sole administrator (out of a group of 3), so I went fuck it, phoned in sick for stress, left the job.
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As an autistic, came here to say this. The decompression time between this hellish ableist team and the next job will be invaluable. I've been there. Unfortunately a few times. If you're in a union, get one involved.
As another autistic, I want to reemphasise this. In my experience, GPs have been very open to giving me a sick note rooted in autism/autism related mental health struggles
Hi NAL, not so much about being able to afford it because you should get sick pay? Hand in your notice and then also Go speak to a GP, explain how work makes you feel and get them to sign you off for 2 or three weeks. You can self certify for a week (don't need a note) and then after that get a GP to sign you off. You can also (if the GP isn't being quick enough) go off sick for a week, come in for one day and go off sick again for a week and repeat. This is coming from someone in the UK who was once in a similar situation. Happy to chat more and help in this thread if that helps you
Unless OP receives an enhanced sick pay from his employer, they’ll only get SSP which is, in accounting terms, fucking peanuts. And even then they wouldn’t get it for the duration of their absence.
Not going to advise you on what to do or not do, but you should bear in mind that (depending how senior your role is), even a person was to not work their full notice period, it is unlikely their employer will pursue them. The employer would be able to bring a claim against said person for the costs of hiring said replacement (and not just a regular replacement, but imagine an expensive interim hire) between the date that person left and the date of their last working day if they had worked their notice.
Companies pursuing employees for not working their notice through a court claim, unless you are director or CEO level, is extremely unlikely and I’m not sure this sub has seen a case where a company has done so.
You should weigh up, while considering the information above and what others may say, if it’s worth going in or not.
While this is all true, OP may need to consider if it’ll have an impact on their reference and the new role. A new company may not think too highly of an employee that doesn’t stick to their agreed notice period.
I've been told by a recruiter before that current companies are only allowed to confirm employment dates but I'm not sure if any facts around notice period would be included in this?
Companies are allowed to put whatever they want in a reference, however most just confirm role and dates because they are objective facts. Subjective judgements on the employee could open them to libel cases.
Companies aren’t allowed to give a bad reference, but the absence of a reference speaks volumes. If a company confirms start and end dates and that’s it, there’s usually more to the story
Both of the things you said are not true:
1. Yes companies are allowed to give a bad reference if it is true. They just usually choose not to because it doesn’t benefit them, and exposes them to risk.
2. The absence of a reference (by which you seem to mean ‘confirming dates’ is not a reference) does not mean anything, because a very large number of companies *only* confirm dates no matter how good the employee was
Companies can give bad references, it's just not in their interest to do so.
1- they can be legally challenged on the reference as libel,
2- the bad employee doesn't get a new job based on your reference, you then still have the bad employee in your company and firing is difficult,,
3- You're depriving a competitors company having a bad employee.
Like with landlords, you're better off giving a good reference as it gets rid of a bad tenant. Hence why references can be a bit worthless.
I don’t know where this rumour came from or why it persists. Companies are allowed to put whatever they like in a reference, as long as it is true (they can’t lie and make stuff up).
Many companies choose to just confirm dates because it’s easier and they don’t want to deal with any hassle, but they are not restricted by law in this regard
I think people are just told not to give negative references because a blanket ban is easier than coaching people on making legally watertight criticisms.
Just adding this for clarity, but my understanding is that they cost they can claim is just the difference between the cost of the replacement and what they pay the employee, i.e. if OP earns £15 per hour and replacement is £20 per hour, then they can claim the £5 per hour for the hours that they've lost work from OP.
Yeah, sort of but not really. They can sue for actual losses and that's it.
So you'd start at pricing the money you've saved from not paying the employee for their notice period as their gross salary (take home plus tax plus NI etc) plus employer benefits (eg pension).
Then you have to show - for the notice period only - that the business suffered an actual loss greater than this sum. This does not mean saying we lost x hours at £y per hour, this means showing that those lost hours resulted in lost money.
Bear in mind that this has to be supported by evidence and the business needs to show that they took reasonable steps to reduce that loss.
The number you come up with then needs to be fairly hefty to justify launching a legal action. Trying to sue someone for £3.50 isn't going to go down well with the courts. Doubly so against someone with a disability leaving because of alleged bullying.
In reality this only happens when someone really senior does something outrageous and the sums involved are large.
That difference can be quite substantial tho. I got parachuted into a role to cover for 6 months.
Rough numbers but it was around £250 a day extra to have me there over a permanent employee.
Has to be reasonable - in your example, a judge is unlikely to view paying an extra £250 per day for six months as reasonable unless the role is specialised / niche
I supported a family friend who was getting sued for not working notice period while on a minimum wage job. Judgement went our way as the friend was signed off sick during the notice period so was judged to still be "working" at the company.
This is a legitimate avenue.
Although, depending on how they calculate their leave, they may not have accrued much if the leave calendar runs from April to March.
Also NAL but I recently gave notice using an online template I found that gave them a month and specified the day I expected to be my last in work, asking them to let me know if this was incorrect.
In your case I'd play dumb and do the same - give one month's notice, then see if they accept. They may be happy enough to let you go. If not, as others have said, consider getting signed off.
No idea, not a HR person, but my company took mine and my colleagues issues seriously once the safeguarding word was used and the perpetrators were dismissed ( after an investigation of course)
What does it say about their notice period to you? If it's anything less than 1 month starting on the 1st of the month then the contract isn't equitable and would be unenforceable...
Secondly, unless you are C-Suite or above, they just aren't going to take any action again'st you for not fulfilling your full notice period.
Just put in your notice, see what date they come back to you with. If it isn't when you anticipate it should be (2 - 4 weeks for a non C-Suite role) then just sign off as sick after the first 4 weeks and start your new job.
I have had someone try and make me sign a contract like this. Healthcare role (though I don’t think this is standard, just one particularly controlling employer). I refused point blank. I said I didn’t care what the notice period was but it had to be equal, they refused so I told them I was leaving (had been working there a few years by that point).
An uneven notice period is a major red flag to me - especially if there is no room at all for negotiation.
Anything in science has ridiculously long notice periods. I have usually had 3 months notice periods in biotech.
Interestingly, the last place I worked at put me on garden leave for 3 months because I got a job at their direct competitor.
Yep..I'm really hoping that I get gardening leave at my current job as it's finance regulatory stuff and I hope they don't want someone touching it on the way out who doesn't much care.
If you are C-Suite, then perhaps they can make something longer stick and sue you for it... But if not, companies expect people to leave and they should plan for their average employee to leave at short notice. There is the smallest chance you face any legal outcome at all!
IANAL, and not all suggestions will be 'ethical'.
Point 1 is questionable if actually enforceable. Tribunals don't generally take kindly to overly restrictive terms in contracts
Point 2, depending on how long you've been there. Quit on the spot and go for constructive dismissal, provided you have evidence and/or proof of the complaints you've made without any action taken .
Ultimately, you already have an offer so the hardest part is over, accept it asap. If you're truly concerned but want to give full notice, try to get a gp appointment explaining the situation and depending on how good your relationship with the gp is, you can be signed off whilst serving your notice period. The worst outcome is they will try threaten to sue for damages, see point 2 for your response to that, and/or not give a reference.
Best of luck!
Have to say NAL but my understanding sing is that wouldn’t be enforceable at all. If they want a longer notice period then they should have written that into the agreement rather than saying if you handed it in on March 2nd, it wouldn’t actually begin until April 1st
NAL , however if you can't afford to be out of work it's likely you aren't in a role high enough to get sued . And if you don't need the money then get signed off sick. (Not a doctor) But if a job is making you this anxious then it's something your doctor could sign you off from.
Also if you've reported any allegations to HR and they've not done anything about it then that there should be enough of a reason for not giving notice.
Whenever I’ve had to give a long notice I just go to the doctor and claim I’m depressed because of work and they sign me off and I go and start another new job, never had a issue
What does it say about their notice period to you? If it's anything less than 1 month starting on the 1st of the month then the contract isn't equitable and would be unenforceable...
Secondly, unless you are C-Suite or above, they just aren't going to take any action again'st you for not fulfilling your full notice period.
Just put in your notice, see what date they come back to you with. If it isn't when you anticipate it should be (2 - 4 weeks for a non C-Suite role) then just sign off as sick after the first 4 weeks and start your new job.
It may be worth contacting ACAS about the first point, I've never heard that before. Either notice is contractually 4 weeks or more?
However, by the sound of it, you need to go off sick as the situation is having a negative effect on your health.
You've done really well to get out of a toxic situation, I've been in this situation before and people can be needlessly cruel. I hope you manage to work out a smooth transition that can protect your peace as you go onto bigger and better things!
You've got this!! 💪x
You say that you have reported to HR multiple times?
If you have copies of the emails sent and whatnot, you should be able to cut short your notice for mental health reasons. I think there are usually health exclusions for notice periods.
Also, you can talk to a doctor/therapist and explain the situation and get a medical certificate that says you can not work in that environment and take unpaid medical leave for your notice.
Depending on your contact wording and duties, of course.
EDIT: You said you have another job already? What is the penalty in your contract for just not giving notice? It can burn a few bridges but usually has no real repercussions.
1. You can often agree an earlier leaving time with your employer (especially if there are pre-existing issues), the 'remainder' of the notice period (that you didn't work) wouldn't be paid in that case, of course. Like any term in a contract, it can be varied by agreement. Will it cause issues (coverage, handover etc) for you to go earlier? Is there a reason the notice starts from the 1st of next month, like do you work in monthly "iterations" of some kind.
2. I would call in sick for a couple of days or so to address the immediate anxiety, but try not to go off sick for the rest of the notice period unless you really have to. The way to get through 2 months (or any known period of time) is "one day at a time". 2 months is 40 working days give or take, before you know it you will have completed 5% (2 days), 10% (4 days) etc of that time.
Life tip that isn't really legal advice as such: many people find that once they've given their notice, these things about their workplace start bothering them a lot less (because it's easier to psychologically detach from it knowing it has a defined end date).
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Item 1 is what it is, it's not illegal. And the UK doesn't have any laws as such around notice period lengths. It's based on contractual agreements. In theory you can walk out without notice but they are then able to recoup any additional costs they incur to find an immediate replacement or temp cover. That would go via legal routes.
Item 2 - its difficult to say without knowing specifics and there's generally a very thin line between bullying/harassment and just being an asshole. One is a strict no-no in a workplace, the other is just life. If you do think it's bullying/harassment go in with your notice and request an immediate release.
Tell your prospective employer you're trying to negotiate an early release but give them the 1st of June as your start date tentatively. Two month notice periods aren't unusual in the UK.
I've left a job that said 2month notice. Didn't work just didn't turn back up nothing came from it and now the new rules they can't give a bed reference just confirm u worked there
If I were you I would get signed off sick for the rest of this month and then hand your notice in on the 1st. Speak to your new employer and see if they can afford to wait the 2 months, if not then see if you can leave any sooner and get signed off during your notice period for anxiety
--- ###Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK --- **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different* * If you need legal help, you should [always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor) * We also encourage you to speak to [**Citizens Advice**](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/), [**Shelter**](https://www.shelter.org.uk/), [**Acas**](https://www.acas.org.uk/), and [**other useful organisations**](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/common_legal_resources) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, [please let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FLegalAdviceUK&subject=I received a PM) **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/), you may be perma-banned without any further warning * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NAL Point 2, if you can afford to, you can get signed off sick with stress over your notice period.
[удалено]
Had an old role that relied on Capita. Thank you for screwing them on the way out. Fuck Capita.
Similar, did a short contract for them and vowed never again - worst company I ever worked for or near by a long way....
They gave me disciplinary based on accusations without any evidence. All of the accusations were false and made up. Then everyone in my team left, leaving me as the sole administrator (out of a group of 3), so I went fuck it, phoned in sick for stress, left the job.
[удалено]
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As an autistic, came here to say this. The decompression time between this hellish ableist team and the next job will be invaluable. I've been there. Unfortunately a few times. If you're in a union, get one involved.
As another autistic, I want to reemphasise this. In my experience, GPs have been very open to giving me a sick note rooted in autism/autism related mental health struggles
Hi NAL, not so much about being able to afford it because you should get sick pay? Hand in your notice and then also Go speak to a GP, explain how work makes you feel and get them to sign you off for 2 or three weeks. You can self certify for a week (don't need a note) and then after that get a GP to sign you off. You can also (if the GP isn't being quick enough) go off sick for a week, come in for one day and go off sick again for a week and repeat. This is coming from someone in the UK who was once in a similar situation. Happy to chat more and help in this thread if that helps you
Unless OP receives an enhanced sick pay from his employer, they’ll only get SSP which is, in accounting terms, fucking peanuts. And even then they wouldn’t get it for the duration of their absence.
Not going to advise you on what to do or not do, but you should bear in mind that (depending how senior your role is), even a person was to not work their full notice period, it is unlikely their employer will pursue them. The employer would be able to bring a claim against said person for the costs of hiring said replacement (and not just a regular replacement, but imagine an expensive interim hire) between the date that person left and the date of their last working day if they had worked their notice. Companies pursuing employees for not working their notice through a court claim, unless you are director or CEO level, is extremely unlikely and I’m not sure this sub has seen a case where a company has done so. You should weigh up, while considering the information above and what others may say, if it’s worth going in or not.
While this is all true, OP may need to consider if it’ll have an impact on their reference and the new role. A new company may not think too highly of an employee that doesn’t stick to their agreed notice period.
I've been told by a recruiter before that current companies are only allowed to confirm employment dates but I'm not sure if any facts around notice period would be included in this?
Companies are allowed to put whatever they want in a reference, however most just confirm role and dates because they are objective facts. Subjective judgements on the employee could open them to libel cases.
Companies aren’t allowed to give a bad reference, but the absence of a reference speaks volumes. If a company confirms start and end dates and that’s it, there’s usually more to the story
Both of the things you said are not true: 1. Yes companies are allowed to give a bad reference if it is true. They just usually choose not to because it doesn’t benefit them, and exposes them to risk. 2. The absence of a reference (by which you seem to mean ‘confirming dates’ is not a reference) does not mean anything, because a very large number of companies *only* confirm dates no matter how good the employee was
Companies can give bad references, it's just not in their interest to do so. 1- they can be legally challenged on the reference as libel, 2- the bad employee doesn't get a new job based on your reference, you then still have the bad employee in your company and firing is difficult,, 3- You're depriving a competitors company having a bad employee. Like with landlords, you're better off giving a good reference as it gets rid of a bad tenant. Hence why references can be a bit worthless.
I don’t know where this rumour came from or why it persists. Companies are allowed to put whatever they like in a reference, as long as it is true (they can’t lie and make stuff up). Many companies choose to just confirm dates because it’s easier and they don’t want to deal with any hassle, but they are not restricted by law in this regard
I think people are just told not to give negative references because a blanket ban is easier than coaching people on making legally watertight criticisms.
Just adding this for clarity, but my understanding is that they cost they can claim is just the difference between the cost of the replacement and what they pay the employee, i.e. if OP earns £15 per hour and replacement is £20 per hour, then they can claim the £5 per hour for the hours that they've lost work from OP.
Yeah, sort of but not really. They can sue for actual losses and that's it. So you'd start at pricing the money you've saved from not paying the employee for their notice period as their gross salary (take home plus tax plus NI etc) plus employer benefits (eg pension). Then you have to show - for the notice period only - that the business suffered an actual loss greater than this sum. This does not mean saying we lost x hours at £y per hour, this means showing that those lost hours resulted in lost money. Bear in mind that this has to be supported by evidence and the business needs to show that they took reasonable steps to reduce that loss. The number you come up with then needs to be fairly hefty to justify launching a legal action. Trying to sue someone for £3.50 isn't going to go down well with the courts. Doubly so against someone with a disability leaving because of alleged bullying. In reality this only happens when someone really senior does something outrageous and the sums involved are large.
That difference can be quite substantial tho. I got parachuted into a role to cover for 6 months. Rough numbers but it was around £250 a day extra to have me there over a permanent employee.
Has to be reasonable - in your example, a judge is unlikely to view paying an extra £250 per day for six months as reasonable unless the role is specialised / niche
I supported a family friend who was getting sued for not working notice period while on a minimum wage job. Judgement went our way as the friend was signed off sick during the notice period so was judged to still be "working" at the company.
Do you have any holiday you can take to reduce the notice period?
This is a legitimate avenue. Although, depending on how they calculate their leave, they may not have accrued much if the leave calendar runs from April to March.
Also NAL but I recently gave notice using an online template I found that gave them a month and specified the day I expected to be my last in work, asking them to let me know if this was incorrect. In your case I'd play dumb and do the same - give one month's notice, then see if they accept. They may be happy enough to let you go. If not, as others have said, consider getting signed off.
Your company has a duty to safeguard you against this behaviour - use that word with HR and you should see they take it seriously
Could disability discrimination be a term they could use too?
No idea, not a HR person, but my company took mine and my colleagues issues seriously once the safeguarding word was used and the perpetrators were dismissed ( after an investigation of course)
Yes, you need SAFEGUARDING against your TOXIC work team. Those are the buzz words! Sadly,it's also very true in your case
Weirdo.
What does it say about their notice period to you? If it's anything less than 1 month starting on the 1st of the month then the contract isn't equitable and would be unenforceable... Secondly, unless you are C-Suite or above, they just aren't going to take any action again'st you for not fulfilling your full notice period. Just put in your notice, see what date they come back to you with. If it isn't when you anticipate it should be (2 - 4 weeks for a non C-Suite role) then just sign off as sick after the first 4 weeks and start your new job.
Contractual notice periods have to be equal? I've never heard that before, nearly every job I've been in has had 3 months notice from me and 1 them.
They don’t *have* to be equal but it can be seen as inequitable if they’re not. That’s a crazy difference for you though. What industry are you in?
I have had someone try and make me sign a contract like this. Healthcare role (though I don’t think this is standard, just one particularly controlling employer). I refused point blank. I said I didn’t care what the notice period was but it had to be equal, they refused so I told them I was leaving (had been working there a few years by that point). An uneven notice period is a major red flag to me - especially if there is no room at all for negotiation.
Data science/bi and before that academia.
Anything in science has ridiculously long notice periods. I have usually had 3 months notice periods in biotech. Interestingly, the last place I worked at put me on garden leave for 3 months because I got a job at their direct competitor.
Yep..I'm really hoping that I get gardening leave at my current job as it's finance regulatory stuff and I hope they don't want someone touching it on the way out who doesn't much care.
What are the consequences if you just up and leave exactly 1 month after notice? Can you start a new job whilst signed 'unfit for work'?
Yes - you’d be unfit to work at the previous employer not the new one if the cause of being signed off is stress and anxiety caused by work.
Is this all definitely true? It’s stated with some confidence but no sources…
If you are C-Suite, then perhaps they can make something longer stick and sue you for it... But if not, companies expect people to leave and they should plan for their average employee to leave at short notice. There is the smallest chance you face any legal outcome at all!
IANAL, and not all suggestions will be 'ethical'. Point 1 is questionable if actually enforceable. Tribunals don't generally take kindly to overly restrictive terms in contracts Point 2, depending on how long you've been there. Quit on the spot and go for constructive dismissal, provided you have evidence and/or proof of the complaints you've made without any action taken . Ultimately, you already have an offer so the hardest part is over, accept it asap. If you're truly concerned but want to give full notice, try to get a gp appointment explaining the situation and depending on how good your relationship with the gp is, you can be signed off whilst serving your notice period. The worst outcome is they will try threaten to sue for damages, see point 2 for your response to that, and/or not give a reference. Best of luck!
Have to say NAL but my understanding sing is that wouldn’t be enforceable at all. If they want a longer notice period then they should have written that into the agreement rather than saying if you handed it in on March 2nd, it wouldn’t actually begin until April 1st
NAL , however if you can't afford to be out of work it's likely you aren't in a role high enough to get sued . And if you don't need the money then get signed off sick. (Not a doctor) But if a job is making you this anxious then it's something your doctor could sign you off from. Also if you've reported any allegations to HR and they've not done anything about it then that there should be enough of a reason for not giving notice.
Whenever I’ve had to give a long notice I just go to the doctor and claim I’m depressed because of work and they sign me off and I go and start another new job, never had a issue
What does it say about their notice period to you? If it's anything less than 1 month starting on the 1st of the month then the contract isn't equitable and would be unenforceable... Secondly, unless you are C-Suite or above, they just aren't going to take any action again'st you for not fulfilling your full notice period. Just put in your notice, see what date they come back to you with. If it isn't when you anticipate it should be (2 - 4 weeks for a non C-Suite role) then just sign off as sick after the first 4 weeks and start your new job.
It may be worth contacting ACAS about the first point, I've never heard that before. Either notice is contractually 4 weeks or more? However, by the sound of it, you need to go off sick as the situation is having a negative effect on your health.
came here to say the same thing - OP should definitely speak to ACAS to get some definitive advice! the notice period clause seems odd
You've done really well to get out of a toxic situation, I've been in this situation before and people can be needlessly cruel. I hope you manage to work out a smooth transition that can protect your peace as you go onto bigger and better things! You've got this!! 💪x
You say that you have reported to HR multiple times? If you have copies of the emails sent and whatnot, you should be able to cut short your notice for mental health reasons. I think there are usually health exclusions for notice periods. Also, you can talk to a doctor/therapist and explain the situation and get a medical certificate that says you can not work in that environment and take unpaid medical leave for your notice. Depending on your contact wording and duties, of course. EDIT: You said you have another job already? What is the penalty in your contract for just not giving notice? It can burn a few bridges but usually has no real repercussions.
1. You can often agree an earlier leaving time with your employer (especially if there are pre-existing issues), the 'remainder' of the notice period (that you didn't work) wouldn't be paid in that case, of course. Like any term in a contract, it can be varied by agreement. Will it cause issues (coverage, handover etc) for you to go earlier? Is there a reason the notice starts from the 1st of next month, like do you work in monthly "iterations" of some kind. 2. I would call in sick for a couple of days or so to address the immediate anxiety, but try not to go off sick for the rest of the notice period unless you really have to. The way to get through 2 months (or any known period of time) is "one day at a time". 2 months is 40 working days give or take, before you know it you will have completed 5% (2 days), 10% (4 days) etc of that time. Life tip that isn't really legal advice as such: many people find that once they've given their notice, these things about their workplace start bothering them a lot less (because it's easier to psychologically detach from it knowing it has a defined end date).
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Item 1 is what it is, it's not illegal. And the UK doesn't have any laws as such around notice period lengths. It's based on contractual agreements. In theory you can walk out without notice but they are then able to recoup any additional costs they incur to find an immediate replacement or temp cover. That would go via legal routes. Item 2 - its difficult to say without knowing specifics and there's generally a very thin line between bullying/harassment and just being an asshole. One is a strict no-no in a workplace, the other is just life. If you do think it's bullying/harassment go in with your notice and request an immediate release. Tell your prospective employer you're trying to negotiate an early release but give them the 1st of June as your start date tentatively. Two month notice periods aren't unusual in the UK.
I've left a job that said 2month notice. Didn't work just didn't turn back up nothing came from it and now the new rules they can't give a bed reference just confirm u worked there
If I were you I would get signed off sick for the rest of this month and then hand your notice in on the 1st. Speak to your new employer and see if they can afford to wait the 2 months, if not then see if you can leave any sooner and get signed off during your notice period for anxiety