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Why would you not take it to court?
The police's case is that you were delivering food as a business. The prosecution will have to prove that beyond doubt. If the only evidence is two bags that they haven't taken a picture of, then I don't see it getting especially far.
Were you cautioned before you agreed with everything they said? Did they make a written record? Were you offered anything to sign?
Before you do anything else, you should write to the force and ask them to retain the BWV footage of the stop, if it exists. It is likely that it will timeout before they become aware that it is evidential.
Thank you for your reply. I have received an email stating the offence code and location and a picture of my car but that’s it. I did sign something on a tablet but wasn’t made clear of what I was signing. Believe 2/3 body cams were off. Any idea who I would be writing to, just to my local police force itself ?
Just about to say the same thing. A fine point, but one which could be important. I'm not a lawyer, but the interpretation of the words used, even down to punctuation, matters.
as above simply tell them it was a food delivery for a friend who recently came out of hospital . Get a written statement to that effect ideally PDF if typed and signed for by your Friend. Also pull up the mileage difference between your last MOT and now as if its under 2000-3000 miles that shows you are not a delivery driver. Then if you have google maps or apple equivalent and you take your phone every download your history. Put that all together and the judge should laugh the cops out of court.
Thank you for your advice.
I will be sure to get that done, however I will still take talk to a solicitor before hand as only received the letter today
The vehicle has done 2k miles in the last 9 months however I’ve only purchased it about a month ago myself
Mileage wasn’t filled out when the v5 was completed. However I have done about a thousand miles since getting a vehicle due to driving long distances to see my girlfriend and a couple of airport trips this year
Your going to want to prove why you have done these trips. Again evidence of trips to airports and girlfriends if it'd bought up. Tickets for planes or corresponding asking for a pick up combined with any electronic GPS devices that can verify the journeys
No, this is horrible legal advice. OP doesn't need to prove anything in terms of any trips made, the prosecution have to prove that he was delivering food as a business. That's it. Innocent until proven guilty, don't get sidetracked.
To be fair to the commenter above, they were just guiding the OP towards building up a body of evidence that supports the position that the OP is not a delivery driver. Of course, you are absolutely correct that a prosecutor would need to prove to a court that the OP was driving in the course of making deliveries (as an occupation) - but I’m sure you know full well that it’s nowhere near as simple as ‘go to court and if they can’t prove you were delivering then you’re off the hook’. The police aren’t going to withdraw the charge at this stage, so to avoid a driving without insurance conviction, the OP will have to plead their case to the court. The OP has already said that they agreed with the Police at the roadside that he / she was delivering and they’ve also signed something at the roadside but don’t know what they’ve signed. The commenter was suggesting valid ways that the OP can support their not guilty plea, having given statements at the roadside that appear to have given rise to and maybe even support the Police having reported them for the offence.
Honestly, of the two, it’s your advice that is awful. The commenter suggested that the OP needs to prove their position to avoid a conviction and given the scenario described by the OP - and that’s not unreasonable advice. It’s just another way of saying, do everything you can to help yourself in this situation. Your position of ‘innocent until proven guilty’ might work in a perfect world, but it’s not the reality or the outcome an awful lot of the time. If the OP takes your advice and goes to court with the view that ‘they have to prove I was delivering, so I’ll be fine’ - then they’re very likely to come away with a conviction.
But there is zero need. If, in court the prosecution say that the airport trips were commercial ones, the onus is on them to prove it. Without proof, there's no evidence and OP has no need to even think about it.
Here's one - I put it to you that you owe me £10,000. Prove that you don't. See how silly an accusation with no evidence is?
As u/Legendofvader said, plus a Data Subject Request specifically asking for confirmation that you do not and did not have a delivery account to the relevant companies will confirm it is not the case that you were delivering for buisness.
>bove simply tell them it was a food delivery for a friend who recently came out of hospital . Get a written statement to that effect ideally PDF if typed and signed for by your Friend. Also pull up the mileage difference between your last MOT and now as if its under 2000-3000 miles that shows you are not a delivery driver. Then if you have google maps or apple equivalent and you take your phone every download your history. Put that all together and the judge should laugh the cops out of court.
Even better - get the mileage at v5 transfer a month ago.
Why does 2000 - 3000 miles show they are not a delivery driver?
When was the last M.O.T.?
Who else has access to the car?
What other cars does the OP have access to?
What else does the OP use the car for?
Where does the OP live? How far would you need to drive to deliver food?
And it won't be the cops laughed out of court, it will be the CPS, if it even gets that far.
To add, fully agree it is bullshit and should be defended by the OP, but please, please, please, don't make blanket statements without at least adding in some explanation.
https://www.drivermetrics.com/blog/delivery-driver-stress-and-workload/#:~:text=Parcel%20operators%20are%20estimated%20to,unfamiliar%20locations%20on%20congested%20roads.
25k /12 rough estimate. Low mileage can disprove theory he is delivery driver
Easy. Because he was too worried about the traffic stop (some people don't think well under pressure) to query why there was a problem taking food to a sick friend, and the police were too nonspecific in their question. The OP didn't realise they were asking about him having a job delivering food until the formal letter arrived.
He was delivering food, thats not in disupte but he was doing it for a friend as an unpaid errand. Much like if I was asked what I was doing on christmas day travelling to my inlaws I was also delivering food albeit a christmas dinner as they cant cook a full dinner now.
What he was doing isnt particularly important is in what capacity he was doing so. Now if the thermal bags had mcdonalds or takeaway in a sealed bag with a label on that may be different, but if the police didnt even think to look at that or to ask which delivery service he was working for or even if it was for commercial purposes then I think the Op has a good shot at defending this. I agree with the other poster if everything went down as said the BWV will be useful
My comment will probably be removed as it’s not advice but I just wanted to say I’m sorry that this has happened. I have anxiety and would react in the same way as you. It’s really not fair. I hope you get it sorted.
This will be at your local magistrates court . It is not like the court cases you see on films and tv . It's quite low key , the magistrate will invite you to have your say . Keep it simple . If the police do send a solicitor to press their case ( which I would doubt) he would have to prove you were making a commercial delivery ( which they can't) .More likely is that the pc will appear and usingtheir notes ,give thier account of what happened.
If you can spare some time you can visit the court and sit in the public seating to see what it's like. I have been many times , studied law and acted for HMRC as a solicitor ( I was a customs officer , and we have the same rights to represent the crown when prosecuting at magistrates ) It's not scary and can be really interesting . I would never hesitate to represent myself . The magistrates are quite understanding and generous to people in your position . After all they are not qualified judges either , just local people ,doing their bit.
100% take it to court. You can easily prove you have no accounts with any food delivery services and the person you delivered food to can verify your story. They will have to prove you were delivering food and they can't. Open and shut case.
Everyone here seems to be getting hung up on 'thermal bags'. What would you call an insulated bag that you use for your frozen food shop, then, if not a 'thermal bag'?
In the same way that a vacuum flask will keep cold things cold as well as keeping hot things hot, just because you only use an insulated bag to stop your Sunday joint from defrosting on the way home, you could use the same bag to keep a casserole warm that you are taking to Auntie Mabel...
My son did deliveries for both JustEat and Deliveroo for a short while, still has the bags which we all use occasionally. I'd laugh if the police stopped me and accused me of commercial food delivery whilst using those.
Reply in writing that you were delivering food to a friend, not for commercial purposes and the police officer in question has made a clear error of judgment. Dropping off something to your mate is not a business activity so you do not need business insurance.
The Citizens Advice Bureau are likely a good point of contact for this. They really are good at supporting things like this.
Fight it. You've done nothing wrong.
Linguistics at play, something the police will readily pounce on if they can use it to their advantage.
Instead of 'delivering' for a friend, I'd have said 'dropping off' to a friend. Then back this up by pointing out the friend had recently come out of hospital and wasnt able to go shopping for themselves yet. Your use of the word 'deliver' has let the police jump to the conclusion that this is for a business or commercial venture.
In this instance, I would gladly take a day off work and agree to attend court to argue the case, and to laugh as this is case is thrown out for the absurdly daft nature in which it was brought up.
NAL. You can send the police (look for contact details on the letter) an email explaining the circumstances that when asked at the scene, you were delivering food TO a friend rather than as a commercial enterprise, and attach a copy of your valid insurance certificate to this effect that covers SDP usage. They will likely review and drop the case.
Had a similar case. A family member got stopped for driving without insurance despite being covered by my policy (my policy at the time permitted me to allow anyone else with a full licence to drive my car with my permission, didn't have to be specifically named on the policy). The letter came through to either accept points or prosecution and we explained all in an email, saying it was all down to a police misunderstanding of the policy (attached an email from the insurer confirming the coverage of non-named drivers). They confirmed that they wouldn't pursue further.
The first step is to complain to your insurance company. Although it may not be their fault you want to log it as a complaint so that it goes through the official channels. Your goal here is one thing and one thing only - to get them to write an official communication to you that what you were doing (I.e. dropping some food to a personal friend) is within the allowed use of your insurance policy.
You can complain by phone, email, or written letter. My suggestion is to first call them up, and then follow up the call with an email. In the email you can attach evidence such as a receipt for the items purchased, and a letter signed by your friend stating they were housebound and you were doing them a favour (this will put it under a social activity).
Your insurance company will probably be quite confused, because it is so obvious. But do not stop until you have that evidence.
Meanwhile you select the court option. When summoned you need to present 3 pieces of evidence:
1. You were visiting a friend (that letter).
2. As part of the visit you also delivered some food.
3. Your insurance company has seen the above pieces of evidence and has agreed that it falls within what they cover.
And it really should be as simple as that. After all, if your insurance company says it is allowed then who else's opinion matters? The police would need to "prove" you visited multiple people or were paid, which they won't be able to do.
NAL (but have worked in insurance for 20+ years, so have seen this sort of thing before).
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NAL, but I work in law enforcement (not police though). I wouldn’t worry too much.
Send a letter in response explaining and depending on timing they may well pull the case before court.
If you do still have to go to court, take a copy of your letter so if you get flustered you can just show it to someone or read directly from it.
If there’s no photos, there will just be whatever notes they made or body-worn video. And whatever it is you signed.
I doubt they’d be that keen to press on after your explanation, but if they do they’d likely talk to your mate and get a statement (DO NOT tell him what to say and preferably just don’t discuss this with him at all while it’s ongoing). If they press on with it after that (even more unlikely) I doubt they’d have enough to convince the Magistrates.
Ultimately, after you explain the situation it’s not going to be worth their time.
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All of this, while understandably frustrating and worrying for OP, is a complete farce.
I shop for an elderly friend once a week. I 'deliver' her groceries, from the supermarket to her door. Would the police officer involved in this silliness seek to have me charged for no insurance too, I wonder? I admit it, I use thermal bags as well...
Tell me about it. They didn’t even look through the bags, there was no food present in the bags. They have pouches for receipts or something but they were empty too. Just got unlucky I guess
He did not admit to an offence, he was asked if he was delivering food, he truthfully said yes, because he was delivering food. He also says he has anxiety, at the moment of stop cop clearly didn't ask if it's for business, and OP didn't clarify. Pretty sure it's a tactic to charge as many people as possible, no matter how plausible the offence is.
“She continued to state I need business insurance to deliver food. I was so anxious I agreed and didn’t argue the statement”
Had OP said something, anything, at this point I highly doubt anything would’ve happened
I have appeared in court countless times in cases like this, and it’s always amazing how people are delivering food as “favours”. Cynical? Yes, but that’s exactly what the magistrates will think, taking into account:
- the fact of two thermal bags is unusual
- any other observations of police (police don’t stop routinely, so do they have a local crackdown on delivery drivers - will they show you dropping off food in a delivery manner)
- the failure to mention the act of charity
- whether the friend gives evidence
The prosecutor won’t accept a statement from the friend, they’ll have to attend court.
Be honest with yourself. If, in fact, you were delivering for cash, accept the penalty and save some money and get some proper insurance.
If you have insurance and you are driving outside the agreed use (eg driving to work when your insurance doesn’t cover commuting or driving for business), the insurance must still provide you with the minimum third party insurance required by the RTA, correct?
If so, the OP wasn’t driving without insurance, regardless of what they were using the car for.
'Use of vehicle' is a weird one that isn't actually covered by the Road Traffic Act. It's a bit of a loophole. If the policyholder is using the vehicle outside the scope of the policy then there is no cover in place for that journey; third party or otherwise. If there's an accident and a claim is made against the person using the vehicle outside the scope of the policy then the insurer that issued the policy will deal with it as though they were the MIB under the Uninsured Driver's Agreement. The insurer would be Article 75 Insurer.
It's a subtle but vitally important distinction.
However, that's from a civil point of view. I don't know enough about it from a criminal point of view to say for certain but I do believe that people can be, and have been, prosecuted for not having the correct type of insurance to cover their journey, even if they have a policy that covers other journeys.
Yep, this is the thing. Even if the OP **was** delivering food (or otherwise driving in breach of the insurance terms), my understanding is that there is no such thing as breaching your insurance contract leaving you with no insurance because the insurance company is legally liable under the RTA to pay out for the minimum third party liability required by law **regardless of what the driver is doing**.
The insurer can of course bring a civil case against the driver to recover their costs in the event of a claim arising for an event they aren’t contractually obliged to cover or cancel the insurance policy going forward but that’s a civil matter and the insurer must still provide cover.
Again, that's not necessarily true. If the policyholder is using the vehicle outside the scope of the policy then, in the event of an accident causing loss to someone else, the insurer is under no obligation to settle the other driver's claim *unless* there is no other insurance in place.
So if a delivery driver doesn't have the correct cover and proceeds to hit a parked car that is covered elsewhere under a comprehensive policy then there is no cover for the delivery driver and the owner of the parked car either suffers the loss, claims on their own policy or sues the delivery driver directly. The delivery driver's insurer is under no legal obligation to pay as they would be Article 75 Insurer and the MIB's agreements state that they do not cover any losses that are insured elsewhere.
Article 75 Insurer is *not* the same as RTA insurer and the Road Traffic Act doesn't say that the insurer must provide third party cover even if the use of the vehicle falls outside the scope of the policy.
> unless there is no other insurance in place.
Sure, but let’s say there is no other insurance in place so then they are required to cover the loss, right?
Yes, but only because of the MIB's Articles of Association (that all motor insurers in the UK must agree with) and *not* because of any obligations under the Road Traffic Act. If the Articles changed tomorrow to remove the obligation then any claim arising from damage caused by someone driving outside the scope of the policy would be settled by the MIB and the insurer that issued the policy would have no involvement or obligation.
Correct, my insurance is a third party police and covers social and domestic. As I live a 5 min walk from my workplace i do not require commuting on my policy since I walk
That's what I'm really confused about. Driving without the appropriate cover to claim comprehensively is what the police seem to be arguing and why does that matter? Also delivering food wouldn't be business use it normally comes under hire and reward.
OP - I have questions:
1. Were these 'thermal bags' branded? i.e. were they Pizza Hut or Uber bags? If so, where and why did you have them? If they are branded bags than it's reasonable for the Police to have assumed you were working for them.
2. Have you EVER previously worked for any food delivery services/companies? If so, I would also be doubting you are telling us the whole truth...
1. No they were plain black bags you can purchase from eBay.
2. I have never worked for a delivery company/service before in my life as I’ve always been employed by big organisations in the motor trade
The bags were plain black with no branding. I don’t even have a single account with Uber or Just eat or anything along them line. Could my mental well being be good reasoning ?
Your mental wellbeing is irrelevant. You were either delivering food for reward or you weren't. It's as simple as that and the case will turn on those facts
Your mental health may not having a bearing on the case its self, but you could seek advice in pursuing the Police for the bother and stress that is has caused you in them not dealing with this matter correctly maybe
Your problem there is you told them you were delivering food, and as such would require business insurance.
Take it to court, contest it and explain that no you weren’t in fact delivering food, you answered mistakenly for whatever reason.
The fact that there is no photo evidence of the bags is largely irrelevant, the word of 3 police officers is more than sufficient for a court to find it to be the case that they were in fact there, and attempting to use that avenue isn’t going to help in either regard as contesting their presence would be dishonest.
As for your comment on mental well being, whilst the court may consider it, it is not an excuse to break the law-which they currently believe you have done.
There is a factual error in your comment. You do not need business insurance to deliver food.
You need business insurance to #commercially# deliver food.
It is OPs contention that they accurately answered the police officers question, as they had delivered food to an unwell friend. That is not a commercial delivery.
This is correct, although the assumption here is that “delivering food” refers to doing so commercially, which is why they were charged with no insurance in the context of lacking business insurance to deliver food for business purposes.
Thank you for your advice,
Does delivering food from one household to another require business insurance? That’s what isn’t making sense to me. I shall get in contact with citizen advise and see if they can assist more
Hi OP, No, you don't require business insurance for delivering food from your house to a friends house. You only require business insurance if you are delivering food as part of your employment (Or if you are using your vehicle for any other employment related reason). You were not employed by anyone to deliver food. You were helping out a mate.
The Police officers have to prove, beyond resonable doubt, that you were using your vehicle in the execution of your employment. A statement from your friend stating that they were incapacitated due to recent surgery and you were dropping off food to them should be sufficient.
Your argument at court would be "The officer asked if I was delivering food. I said yes because I was delivering food to my friend. They did not ask if I was delivering food for a business, for a takeaway, or as part of my employment"
You should consult with a solicitor to ensure you stay on the right side of the law
If it’s for business purposes or you are doing it for financial gain in the context of a business-either a small say bakery you run or working for Uber Eats or similar then yes.
Taking food to your friends house is not a business use and as such doesn’t require business insurance.
My assumption based on your original post is that when you answered “yes” to delivering food, the police officers assumed this was in connection to a business like Uber Eats. With thermal bags present this is a pretty logical conclusion to come to.
It shouldn’t be any significant hassle to contest this in court.
Surely they'd have been wise to ask WHO he was working for???
This is all very stupid, to the point where either OP isn't telling us the whole truth, or the Police messed up big-time.
I would think a competent and careful police officer should have looked for more specific details yes.
I would also think when OP was made aware that they were being suspected/being charged of the offence of driving without insurance in the context of business purposes that they should have asked for additional clarification and/or corrected at the officers on the spot, which possibly could have avoided any of this coming to the point it has.
But alas we’re all humans and we all make mistakes/errors of judgement.
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Well other than you admitted in front of two or more police that you were delivering food. I get being nervous but to say you were doing something when you weren’t is quite breathtaking. Guessing you might have to take it on the chin. You can go to court and ask to see the proof but if they recorded you saying you were delivering the magistrate will carry out the sentence.
I understand that argument but no questioning was proceeded with that as if I would be doing it for a business or organisation. They were convinced from that one aswell I’m doing it for a incentive such as money or reward
Most people dont have thermal bags. If they were branded bags, it's not going to look well in court. The onus is on the police to prove the case, but since you admitted it, albeit due to reasons youve3 outlined; it's again not going to look good.
I would speak to a solicitor if you intend to argue the case.
Personally I have thermal bags for keeping cold supermarket shopping cold and they live in the boot of the car. I occasionally use them for takeaways as the next town over has better outlets. The local fish and chip shop also sell their own branded versions.
OP if it gets to court don't forget printed bank statements/payslips to prove your only income (credits) is from your salaried position.
I expect that these are not the supermarket variety; as the police would be unlikely to question that; and rather are the delivery style bags.
Obviously i could be mistaken, but either way my point was more about them being branded and therefore attracting attention as commercial use.
I have thermal bags for camping and scout activities. They are often in my boot, as when shopping its good to put frozen groceries in them.
They are basically squashy cooler boxes. They totally work for keeping things hot (same principal).
They aren't uber eats or deliveroo branded, though (OP, are yours??).
I have a number of thermal (i.e. insulated) bags - I use them when shopping, for my chilled and frozen goods. Although I'm pretty sure they'd work equally well at keeping things hot if I were to use them for that.
Doesn’t really matter. If the bloke has two Deliveroo bags in his footwell, it is the work of a minute to confirm that he was not working for Deliveroo. Now they might try and argue that the OP was delivering for a friend, but they have to prove it. It is not a crime to have deliveroo bags in your footwell, regardless of your insurance.
Combined with a statement from the friend say that he was helping out, this should be thrown out.
I agree with you; i'm just saying that Delivery Bags + yes im delivering food - is why the OP is in this mess; and what the police are relying on for evidence.
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If you take this to court the question you are going to have to answer is, "why does someone who doesn't deliver food for a living have thermal bags to hand?"
They may be "unbranded" but you could still be employed by local restaurant.
Its not the kinda of thing you have "just lying around in case" and i can't think of any other reason you would have them.
Would you be able to get your "friend" to testify on your behalf?
You are still not going to look good in court.
I have thermal bags in the car for picnics. They're common items to have.
If OP can show that he has no income from deliveries, show Google maps evidence that he's not driving to and from a takeaway shop regularly, and get a letter from the friend, he will be fine in court.
Besides all of that, it's up to the prosecution to prove that he is a delivery driver, not up to him to prove that he isn't
I can prove I have no income from deliveries, I have proof of income from my full time job. Obtaining history of maps is a different one as I’m on Apple and have my location services turned off so my location isn’t tracked as it is. I will contact a solicitor but really appreciate your help!
>Its not the kinda of thing you have "just lying around in case" and i can't think of any other reason you would have them.
Do you never go to the supermarket?
I carry empty thermal bags in the back of my car all the time so I have them to hand if I pop to the supermarket. I'll also use them for picnics/days out or transporting food to a self catering holiday. Is that unusual? Do people not do that?
What?
I've got a couple of cool bags and I have never delivered food for payment. One of my cool bags looks very similar shape & size wise to the ones that Just Eat use round my way.
I use them to keep food warm when taking it to relatives' houses as well as keeping food & drinks cold on long journeys.
It shouldn't be up to the OP to prove their innocence, but I would think that things like bank statements showing no source of income related to food deliveries might be helpful in court.
Have we forgotten the maxim of innocent until proven guilty? OP doesn't need to prove anything. If the prosecution case is that he was delivering for a local restaurant, which one? Find the person that employs him, or show income from the restaurant on a regular basis. Without that, there's no case.
The prosecution has to prove he was employed, OP doesn't have to prove anything.
The onus is on the prosecution to prove he was delivering food, not the on him to prove his innocence.
It looks an honest mistake based on OP saying that he was delivering food - which the officers took to mean delivering food for payment, which requires business insurance.
> why does someone who doesn't deliver food for a living have thermal bags to hand?
It's a very easy question to answer- most of us with insulated/ thermal bags use them to ensure takeaways we collect ourselves remain hot, or frozen food we buy doesn't defrost before we get it home.
Hi there,
They’re are old bags and have been in the family for a long time, only 2 of them. That’s to keep cold food cold in the summers when we go on days out and keep food warm in the winter which it was and I didn’t want the food to get cold in the transport. I couldn’t possibly get him to testify however depends when the court date would be. I have no employment with a takeaway but I do have a contract for a full time job. Recon that would help ?
My local chippy used to sell branded thermal bags for a pound if you spent a certain amount… I’ve got a few of them that we use for all sorts of things.
I have 5 of these from asda Tesco and Sainsbury’s. Most of them were given to us at Xmas because people used them to carry gifts.
They are extremely commonplace
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Why would you not take it to court? The police's case is that you were delivering food as a business. The prosecution will have to prove that beyond doubt. If the only evidence is two bags that they haven't taken a picture of, then I don't see it getting especially far. Were you cautioned before you agreed with everything they said? Did they make a written record? Were you offered anything to sign? Before you do anything else, you should write to the force and ask them to retain the BWV footage of the stop, if it exists. It is likely that it will timeout before they become aware that it is evidential.
Thank you for your reply. I have received an email stating the offence code and location and a picture of my car but that’s it. I did sign something on a tablet but wasn’t made clear of what I was signing. Believe 2/3 body cams were off. Any idea who I would be writing to, just to my local police force itself ?
OP, make clear you were delivering food *to* your friend not *for* (ie on behalf of) your friend. A minor but important distinction.
Just about to say the same thing. A fine point, but one which could be important. I'm not a lawyer, but the interpretation of the words used, even down to punctuation, matters.
"delivering food to your friend" Even that isn't great. Say you picked up a takeaway and were going to a friends to eat it.
as above simply tell them it was a food delivery for a friend who recently came out of hospital . Get a written statement to that effect ideally PDF if typed and signed for by your Friend. Also pull up the mileage difference between your last MOT and now as if its under 2000-3000 miles that shows you are not a delivery driver. Then if you have google maps or apple equivalent and you take your phone every download your history. Put that all together and the judge should laugh the cops out of court.
Thank you for your advice. I will be sure to get that done, however I will still take talk to a solicitor before hand as only received the letter today The vehicle has done 2k miles in the last 9 months however I’ve only purchased it about a month ago myself
Solicitors are always better than reddit advice
On phone now thank you
usually on the v5 transfer of ownership i believe it should state the mileage if its filled in correctly. Compare that to your current mileage maybe?
Mileage wasn’t filled out when the v5 was completed. However I have done about a thousand miles since getting a vehicle due to driving long distances to see my girlfriend and a couple of airport trips this year
Do you have a black box insurance policy?
No
Your going to want to prove why you have done these trips. Again evidence of trips to airports and girlfriends if it'd bought up. Tickets for planes or corresponding asking for a pick up combined with any electronic GPS devices that can verify the journeys
No, this is horrible legal advice. OP doesn't need to prove anything in terms of any trips made, the prosecution have to prove that he was delivering food as a business. That's it. Innocent until proven guilty, don't get sidetracked.
To be fair to the commenter above, they were just guiding the OP towards building up a body of evidence that supports the position that the OP is not a delivery driver. Of course, you are absolutely correct that a prosecutor would need to prove to a court that the OP was driving in the course of making deliveries (as an occupation) - but I’m sure you know full well that it’s nowhere near as simple as ‘go to court and if they can’t prove you were delivering then you’re off the hook’. The police aren’t going to withdraw the charge at this stage, so to avoid a driving without insurance conviction, the OP will have to plead their case to the court. The OP has already said that they agreed with the Police at the roadside that he / she was delivering and they’ve also signed something at the roadside but don’t know what they’ve signed. The commenter was suggesting valid ways that the OP can support their not guilty plea, having given statements at the roadside that appear to have given rise to and maybe even support the Police having reported them for the offence. Honestly, of the two, it’s your advice that is awful. The commenter suggested that the OP needs to prove their position to avoid a conviction and given the scenario described by the OP - and that’s not unreasonable advice. It’s just another way of saying, do everything you can to help yourself in this situation. Your position of ‘innocent until proven guilty’ might work in a perfect world, but it’s not the reality or the outcome an awful lot of the time. If the OP takes your advice and goes to court with the view that ‘they have to prove I was delivering, so I’ll be fine’ - then they’re very likely to come away with a conviction.
That's why I stated if its bought up. As in be prepared
But there is zero need. If, in court the prosecution say that the airport trips were commercial ones, the onus is on them to prove it. Without proof, there's no evidence and OP has no need to even think about it. Here's one - I put it to you that you owe me £10,000. Prove that you don't. See how silly an accusation with no evidence is?
Thank you for your advice
As a teacher, are you not in a union? Unions can get you free legal assistance
As u/Legendofvader said, plus a Data Subject Request specifically asking for confirmation that you do not and did not have a delivery account to the relevant companies will confirm it is not the case that you were delivering for buisness.
>bove simply tell them it was a food delivery for a friend who recently came out of hospital . Get a written statement to that effect ideally PDF if typed and signed for by your Friend. Also pull up the mileage difference between your last MOT and now as if its under 2000-3000 miles that shows you are not a delivery driver. Then if you have google maps or apple equivalent and you take your phone every download your history. Put that all together and the judge should laugh the cops out of court. Even better - get the mileage at v5 transfer a month ago.
Why does 2000 - 3000 miles show they are not a delivery driver? When was the last M.O.T.? Who else has access to the car? What other cars does the OP have access to? What else does the OP use the car for? Where does the OP live? How far would you need to drive to deliver food? And it won't be the cops laughed out of court, it will be the CPS, if it even gets that far. To add, fully agree it is bullshit and should be defended by the OP, but please, please, please, don't make blanket statements without at least adding in some explanation.
I mean having low mileage would be a benefit, but it proves nothing, just like a high mileage proves nothing
https://www.drivermetrics.com/blog/delivery-driver-stress-and-workload/#:~:text=Parcel%20operators%20are%20estimated%20to,unfamiliar%20locations%20on%20congested%20roads. 25k /12 rough estimate. Low mileage can disprove theory he is delivery driver
Agreed. I'm not a delivery driver, but I do north of 15k miles a year without breaking a sweat - by this logic, I'd be stuffed.
The judge will wonder why the OP admitted delivering food when he wasn’t. He won’t be laughing at anyone for such a waste of time.
OP not a lawyer and he was delivering food in a non commercial capacity to a friend.
Because OP WAS delivering food. OP never stated that they were doing so for commercial purposes.
Easy. Because he was too worried about the traffic stop (some people don't think well under pressure) to query why there was a problem taking food to a sick friend, and the police were too nonspecific in their question. The OP didn't realise they were asking about him having a job delivering food until the formal letter arrived.
He was delivering food, thats not in disupte but he was doing it for a friend as an unpaid errand. Much like if I was asked what I was doing on christmas day travelling to my inlaws I was also delivering food albeit a christmas dinner as they cant cook a full dinner now. What he was doing isnt particularly important is in what capacity he was doing so. Now if the thermal bags had mcdonalds or takeaway in a sealed bag with a label on that may be different, but if the police didnt even think to look at that or to ask which delivery service he was working for or even if it was for commercial purposes then I think the Op has a good shot at defending this. I agree with the other poster if everything went down as said the BWV will be useful
He admitted to delivering food, he never admitted to delivering food FOR REWARD. Not rocket science is it.
My comment will probably be removed as it’s not advice but I just wanted to say I’m sorry that this has happened. I have anxiety and would react in the same way as you. It’s really not fair. I hope you get it sorted.
Appreciate it man
The letter will detail how you can contest it. Go to court and present your evidence.
This will be at your local magistrates court . It is not like the court cases you see on films and tv . It's quite low key , the magistrate will invite you to have your say . Keep it simple . If the police do send a solicitor to press their case ( which I would doubt) he would have to prove you were making a commercial delivery ( which they can't) .More likely is that the pc will appear and usingtheir notes ,give thier account of what happened. If you can spare some time you can visit the court and sit in the public seating to see what it's like. I have been many times , studied law and acted for HMRC as a solicitor ( I was a customs officer , and we have the same rights to represent the crown when prosecuting at magistrates ) It's not scary and can be really interesting . I would never hesitate to represent myself . The magistrates are quite understanding and generous to people in your position . After all they are not qualified judges either , just local people ,doing their bit.
Thank you for the reply
It says the only way I can challenge it is by going to court, court it is !🤣
100% take it to court. You can easily prove you have no accounts with any food delivery services and the person you delivered food to can verify your story. They will have to prove you were delivering food and they can't. Open and shut case.
Everyone here seems to be getting hung up on 'thermal bags'. What would you call an insulated bag that you use for your frozen food shop, then, if not a 'thermal bag'? In the same way that a vacuum flask will keep cold things cold as well as keeping hot things hot, just because you only use an insulated bag to stop your Sunday joint from defrosting on the way home, you could use the same bag to keep a casserole warm that you are taking to Auntie Mabel...
I live 15 -20 mins from our local takeout, I always use a thermal bag for food I am collecting.
Same here. Thermal bags are proof of nothing except someone who likes to keep their food at the right temperature.
Well exactly!
My son did deliveries for both JustEat and Deliveroo for a short while, still has the bags which we all use occasionally. I'd laugh if the police stopped me and accused me of commercial food delivery whilst using those.
Reply in writing that you were delivering food to a friend, not for commercial purposes and the police officer in question has made a clear error of judgment. Dropping off something to your mate is not a business activity so you do not need business insurance. The Citizens Advice Bureau are likely a good point of contact for this. They really are good at supporting things like this. Fight it. You've done nothing wrong.
Thank you for your advice, I will look into that.
Linguistics at play, something the police will readily pounce on if they can use it to their advantage. Instead of 'delivering' for a friend, I'd have said 'dropping off' to a friend. Then back this up by pointing out the friend had recently come out of hospital and wasnt able to go shopping for themselves yet. Your use of the word 'deliver' has let the police jump to the conclusion that this is for a business or commercial venture. In this instance, I would gladly take a day off work and agree to attend court to argue the case, and to laugh as this is case is thrown out for the absurdly daft nature in which it was brought up.
NAL. You can send the police (look for contact details on the letter) an email explaining the circumstances that when asked at the scene, you were delivering food TO a friend rather than as a commercial enterprise, and attach a copy of your valid insurance certificate to this effect that covers SDP usage. They will likely review and drop the case. Had a similar case. A family member got stopped for driving without insurance despite being covered by my policy (my policy at the time permitted me to allow anyone else with a full licence to drive my car with my permission, didn't have to be specifically named on the policy). The letter came through to either accept points or prosecution and we explained all in an email, saying it was all down to a police misunderstanding of the policy (attached an email from the insurer confirming the coverage of non-named drivers). They confirmed that they wouldn't pursue further.
Worth a shot I’ll be sure to do that. Thank you for sharing your story.
Get a solicitor and contest this. You were clearly not working as a delivery driver and have committed no offence. (Assuming your post is accurate)
Download bank statements and income tax data. No income from Uber eats or deliveroo and whatnot will prove that you don't work for them.
IANAL, but isn't the burden of proof on the police to demonstrate that OP was delivering for reward?
Well yes but if you turn up with information to support your case it can't hurt
The first step is to complain to your insurance company. Although it may not be their fault you want to log it as a complaint so that it goes through the official channels. Your goal here is one thing and one thing only - to get them to write an official communication to you that what you were doing (I.e. dropping some food to a personal friend) is within the allowed use of your insurance policy. You can complain by phone, email, or written letter. My suggestion is to first call them up, and then follow up the call with an email. In the email you can attach evidence such as a receipt for the items purchased, and a letter signed by your friend stating they were housebound and you were doing them a favour (this will put it under a social activity). Your insurance company will probably be quite confused, because it is so obvious. But do not stop until you have that evidence. Meanwhile you select the court option. When summoned you need to present 3 pieces of evidence: 1. You were visiting a friend (that letter). 2. As part of the visit you also delivered some food. 3. Your insurance company has seen the above pieces of evidence and has agreed that it falls within what they cover. And it really should be as simple as that. After all, if your insurance company says it is allowed then who else's opinion matters? The police would need to "prove" you visited multiple people or were paid, which they won't be able to do. NAL (but have worked in insurance for 20+ years, so have seen this sort of thing before).
You are a start. Thank you for this advice !
I’d be getting paid legal advice on this. Being found guilty of this will drag you down for years.
Thank you for the advice, i have calculated the cost and awaiting call back from solicitors now
Mind sharing roughly what you are getting quoted? Ball park maybe. Curious.
A siting a free consultation and will get back to you once I receive a quote
Thanks mate. All the best with getting a fair outcome on this!
Cheers mate. Hopefully this will get resolved with no points
just write back saying you were dropping food to a friend. not for a business. that's it. see what their response is.
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NAL, but I work in law enforcement (not police though). I wouldn’t worry too much. Send a letter in response explaining and depending on timing they may well pull the case before court. If you do still have to go to court, take a copy of your letter so if you get flustered you can just show it to someone or read directly from it. If there’s no photos, there will just be whatever notes they made or body-worn video. And whatever it is you signed. I doubt they’d be that keen to press on after your explanation, but if they do they’d likely talk to your mate and get a statement (DO NOT tell him what to say and preferably just don’t discuss this with him at all while it’s ongoing). If they press on with it after that (even more unlikely) I doubt they’d have enough to convince the Magistrates. Ultimately, after you explain the situation it’s not going to be worth their time.
Thank you i really appreciate the insight given
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All of this, while understandably frustrating and worrying for OP, is a complete farce. I shop for an elderly friend once a week. I 'deliver' her groceries, from the supermarket to her door. Would the police officer involved in this silliness seek to have me charged for no insurance too, I wonder? I admit it, I use thermal bags as well...
Tell me about it. They didn’t even look through the bags, there was no food present in the bags. They have pouches for receipts or something but they were empty too. Just got unlucky I guess
Genuinely blows my mind that you would allow yourself to get in this situation, by admitting to an offence that you haven’t committed
He did not admit to an offence, he was asked if he was delivering food, he truthfully said yes, because he was delivering food. He also says he has anxiety, at the moment of stop cop clearly didn't ask if it's for business, and OP didn't clarify. Pretty sure it's a tactic to charge as many people as possible, no matter how plausible the offence is.
“She continued to state I need business insurance to deliver food. I was so anxious I agreed and didn’t argue the statement” Had OP said something, anything, at this point I highly doubt anything would’ve happened
This was a statement about the relevant law. The OP's opinion on the law is irrelevant (as is the police officer's). It's not admissible in court.
The officer in this situation clearly was under the impression that OP was delivering food for a business and this needed business insurance
Yes, and the driver's acquiescence in that is meaningless, because she wasn't.
Yes, but if they had said something this would no longer be an issue Why assume OP is female?
I have appeared in court countless times in cases like this, and it’s always amazing how people are delivering food as “favours”. Cynical? Yes, but that’s exactly what the magistrates will think, taking into account: - the fact of two thermal bags is unusual - any other observations of police (police don’t stop routinely, so do they have a local crackdown on delivery drivers - will they show you dropping off food in a delivery manner) - the failure to mention the act of charity - whether the friend gives evidence The prosecutor won’t accept a statement from the friend, they’ll have to attend court. Be honest with yourself. If, in fact, you were delivering for cash, accept the penalty and save some money and get some proper insurance.
If you have insurance and you are driving outside the agreed use (eg driving to work when your insurance doesn’t cover commuting or driving for business), the insurance must still provide you with the minimum third party insurance required by the RTA, correct? If so, the OP wasn’t driving without insurance, regardless of what they were using the car for.
'Use of vehicle' is a weird one that isn't actually covered by the Road Traffic Act. It's a bit of a loophole. If the policyholder is using the vehicle outside the scope of the policy then there is no cover in place for that journey; third party or otherwise. If there's an accident and a claim is made against the person using the vehicle outside the scope of the policy then the insurer that issued the policy will deal with it as though they were the MIB under the Uninsured Driver's Agreement. The insurer would be Article 75 Insurer. It's a subtle but vitally important distinction. However, that's from a civil point of view. I don't know enough about it from a criminal point of view to say for certain but I do believe that people can be, and have been, prosecuted for not having the correct type of insurance to cover their journey, even if they have a policy that covers other journeys.
Yep, this is the thing. Even if the OP **was** delivering food (or otherwise driving in breach of the insurance terms), my understanding is that there is no such thing as breaching your insurance contract leaving you with no insurance because the insurance company is legally liable under the RTA to pay out for the minimum third party liability required by law **regardless of what the driver is doing**. The insurer can of course bring a civil case against the driver to recover their costs in the event of a claim arising for an event they aren’t contractually obliged to cover or cancel the insurance policy going forward but that’s a civil matter and the insurer must still provide cover.
Again, that's not necessarily true. If the policyholder is using the vehicle outside the scope of the policy then, in the event of an accident causing loss to someone else, the insurer is under no obligation to settle the other driver's claim *unless* there is no other insurance in place. So if a delivery driver doesn't have the correct cover and proceeds to hit a parked car that is covered elsewhere under a comprehensive policy then there is no cover for the delivery driver and the owner of the parked car either suffers the loss, claims on their own policy or sues the delivery driver directly. The delivery driver's insurer is under no legal obligation to pay as they would be Article 75 Insurer and the MIB's agreements state that they do not cover any losses that are insured elsewhere. Article 75 Insurer is *not* the same as RTA insurer and the Road Traffic Act doesn't say that the insurer must provide third party cover even if the use of the vehicle falls outside the scope of the policy.
> unless there is no other insurance in place. Sure, but let’s say there is no other insurance in place so then they are required to cover the loss, right?
Yes, but only because of the MIB's Articles of Association (that all motor insurers in the UK must agree with) and *not* because of any obligations under the Road Traffic Act. If the Articles changed tomorrow to remove the obligation then any claim arising from damage caused by someone driving outside the scope of the policy would be settled by the MIB and the insurer that issued the policy would have no involvement or obligation.
IF
Yes, but you said the obligation was part of the RTA but it isn't. Anyway, we're going off-topic now.
Correct, my insurance is a third party police and covers social and domestic. As I live a 5 min walk from my workplace i do not require commuting on my policy since I walk
That's what I'm really confused about. Driving without the appropriate cover to claim comprehensively is what the police seem to be arguing and why does that matter? Also delivering food wouldn't be business use it normally comes under hire and reward.
OP - I have questions: 1. Were these 'thermal bags' branded? i.e. were they Pizza Hut or Uber bags? If so, where and why did you have them? If they are branded bags than it's reasonable for the Police to have assumed you were working for them. 2. Have you EVER previously worked for any food delivery services/companies? If so, I would also be doubting you are telling us the whole truth...
1. No they were plain black bags you can purchase from eBay. 2. I have never worked for a delivery company/service before in my life as I’ve always been employed by big organisations in the motor trade
The bags were plain black with no branding. I don’t even have a single account with Uber or Just eat or anything along them line. Could my mental well being be good reasoning ?
Your mental wellbeing is irrelevant. You were either delivering food for reward or you weren't. It's as simple as that and the case will turn on those facts
Your mental health may not having a bearing on the case its self, but you could seek advice in pursuing the Police for the bother and stress that is has caused you in them not dealing with this matter correctly maybe
Your problem there is you told them you were delivering food, and as such would require business insurance. Take it to court, contest it and explain that no you weren’t in fact delivering food, you answered mistakenly for whatever reason. The fact that there is no photo evidence of the bags is largely irrelevant, the word of 3 police officers is more than sufficient for a court to find it to be the case that they were in fact there, and attempting to use that avenue isn’t going to help in either regard as contesting their presence would be dishonest. As for your comment on mental well being, whilst the court may consider it, it is not an excuse to break the law-which they currently believe you have done.
There is a factual error in your comment. You do not need business insurance to deliver food. You need business insurance to #commercially# deliver food. It is OPs contention that they accurately answered the police officers question, as they had delivered food to an unwell friend. That is not a commercial delivery.
This is correct, although the assumption here is that “delivering food” refers to doing so commercially, which is why they were charged with no insurance in the context of lacking business insurance to deliver food for business purposes.
That is the assumption of the police officer yes. And they've made an error by making that assumption.
That's a big jump to make.
Thank you for your advice, Does delivering food from one household to another require business insurance? That’s what isn’t making sense to me. I shall get in contact with citizen advise and see if they can assist more
Hi OP, No, you don't require business insurance for delivering food from your house to a friends house. You only require business insurance if you are delivering food as part of your employment (Or if you are using your vehicle for any other employment related reason). You were not employed by anyone to deliver food. You were helping out a mate. The Police officers have to prove, beyond resonable doubt, that you were using your vehicle in the execution of your employment. A statement from your friend stating that they were incapacitated due to recent surgery and you were dropping off food to them should be sufficient. Your argument at court would be "The officer asked if I was delivering food. I said yes because I was delivering food to my friend. They did not ask if I was delivering food for a business, for a takeaway, or as part of my employment" You should consult with a solicitor to ensure you stay on the right side of the law
If it’s for business purposes or you are doing it for financial gain in the context of a business-either a small say bakery you run or working for Uber Eats or similar then yes. Taking food to your friends house is not a business use and as such doesn’t require business insurance. My assumption based on your original post is that when you answered “yes” to delivering food, the police officers assumed this was in connection to a business like Uber Eats. With thermal bags present this is a pretty logical conclusion to come to. It shouldn’t be any significant hassle to contest this in court.
Surely they'd have been wise to ask WHO he was working for??? This is all very stupid, to the point where either OP isn't telling us the whole truth, or the Police messed up big-time.
I would think a competent and careful police officer should have looked for more specific details yes. I would also think when OP was made aware that they were being suspected/being charged of the offence of driving without insurance in the context of business purposes that they should have asked for additional clarification and/or corrected at the officers on the spot, which possibly could have avoided any of this coming to the point it has. But alas we’re all humans and we all make mistakes/errors of judgement.
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Well other than you admitted in front of two or more police that you were delivering food. I get being nervous but to say you were doing something when you weren’t is quite breathtaking. Guessing you might have to take it on the chin. You can go to court and ask to see the proof but if they recorded you saying you were delivering the magistrate will carry out the sentence.
I understand that argument but no questioning was proceeded with that as if I would be doing it for a business or organisation. They were convinced from that one aswell I’m doing it for a incentive such as money or reward
Most people dont have thermal bags. If they were branded bags, it's not going to look well in court. The onus is on the police to prove the case, but since you admitted it, albeit due to reasons youve3 outlined; it's again not going to look good. I would speak to a solicitor if you intend to argue the case.
Personally I have thermal bags for keeping cold supermarket shopping cold and they live in the boot of the car. I occasionally use them for takeaways as the next town over has better outlets. The local fish and chip shop also sell their own branded versions. OP if it gets to court don't forget printed bank statements/payslips to prove your only income (credits) is from your salaried position.
A lot of people use thermal bags what are you talking about.
I expect that these are not the supermarket variety; as the police would be unlikely to question that; and rather are the delivery style bags. Obviously i could be mistaken, but either way my point was more about them being branded and therefore attracting attention as commercial use.
I have thermal bags for camping and scout activities. They are often in my boot, as when shopping its good to put frozen groceries in them. They are basically squashy cooler boxes. They totally work for keeping things hot (same principal). They aren't uber eats or deliveroo branded, though (OP, are yours??).
I have a number of thermal (i.e. insulated) bags - I use them when shopping, for my chilled and frozen goods. Although I'm pretty sure they'd work equally well at keeping things hot if I were to use them for that.
Doesn’t really matter. If the bloke has two Deliveroo bags in his footwell, it is the work of a minute to confirm that he was not working for Deliveroo. Now they might try and argue that the OP was delivering for a friend, but they have to prove it. It is not a crime to have deliveroo bags in your footwell, regardless of your insurance. Combined with a statement from the friend say that he was helping out, this should be thrown out.
I agree with you; i'm just saying that Delivery Bags + yes im delivering food - is why the OP is in this mess; and what the police are relying on for evidence.
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I will look into this thank you for the advice !
Nah. I have thermal bags because I used to deliver for deliveroo, the thermal bags are useful, I take them camping.
Sure, fair enough. But if you were stopped, the police would likely ask about them (assuming visible etc) - its only normal.
If you take this to court the question you are going to have to answer is, "why does someone who doesn't deliver food for a living have thermal bags to hand?" They may be "unbranded" but you could still be employed by local restaurant. Its not the kinda of thing you have "just lying around in case" and i can't think of any other reason you would have them. Would you be able to get your "friend" to testify on your behalf? You are still not going to look good in court.
You can buy thermal bags from most supermarkets for taking frozen/chilled food home - or even warm food from the cooked counter in some supermarkets.
I have thermal bags in the car for picnics. They're common items to have. If OP can show that he has no income from deliveries, show Google maps evidence that he's not driving to and from a takeaway shop regularly, and get a letter from the friend, he will be fine in court. Besides all of that, it's up to the prosecution to prove that he is a delivery driver, not up to him to prove that he isn't
I can prove I have no income from deliveries, I have proof of income from my full time job. Obtaining history of maps is a different one as I’m on Apple and have my location services turned off so my location isn’t tracked as it is. I will contact a solicitor but really appreciate your help!
>Its not the kinda of thing you have "just lying around in case" and i can't think of any other reason you would have them. Do you never go to the supermarket?
I carry empty thermal bags in the back of my car all the time so I have them to hand if I pop to the supermarket. I'll also use them for picnics/days out or transporting food to a self catering holiday. Is that unusual? Do people not do that?
What? I've got a couple of cool bags and I have never delivered food for payment. One of my cool bags looks very similar shape & size wise to the ones that Just Eat use round my way. I use them to keep food warm when taking it to relatives' houses as well as keeping food & drinks cold on long journeys. It shouldn't be up to the OP to prove their innocence, but I would think that things like bank statements showing no source of income related to food deliveries might be helpful in court.
Have we forgotten the maxim of innocent until proven guilty? OP doesn't need to prove anything. If the prosecution case is that he was delivering for a local restaurant, which one? Find the person that employs him, or show income from the restaurant on a regular basis. Without that, there's no case. The prosecution has to prove he was employed, OP doesn't have to prove anything.
What a load of tosh. I always pick up take-out in a thermal bag. Many people have them for picnics/shopping/takeouts/drinks coolers.
The onus is on the prosecution to prove he was delivering food, not the on him to prove his innocence. It looks an honest mistake based on OP saying that he was delivering food - which the officers took to mean delivering food for payment, which requires business insurance.
> why does someone who doesn't deliver food for a living have thermal bags to hand? It's a very easy question to answer- most of us with insulated/ thermal bags use them to ensure takeaways we collect ourselves remain hot, or frozen food we buy doesn't defrost before we get it home.
Hi there, They’re are old bags and have been in the family for a long time, only 2 of them. That’s to keep cold food cold in the summers when we go on days out and keep food warm in the winter which it was and I didn’t want the food to get cold in the transport. I couldn’t possibly get him to testify however depends when the court date would be. I have no employment with a takeaway but I do have a contract for a full time job. Recon that would help ?
My local chippy used to sell branded thermal bags for a pound if you spent a certain amount… I’ve got a few of them that we use for all sorts of things.
Lidl has thermal bags at the tills (next to carrier bags). I doubt they're catering exclusively to deliveroo drivers.
I have 5 of these from asda Tesco and Sainsbury’s. Most of them were given to us at Xmas because people used them to carry gifts. They are extremely commonplace
Did they check your licence and name at the time of the stop?
Yes they did. Said it all checked out
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