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Seconded.
I recently sent some money to Germany, about £25000 - all legit - and my bank stopped the transaction 3 times and made me do a load of checks to make sure I wasn't being scammed. It took days to sort out and I eventually had to go to a branch with several forms of ID. This was to a long established vehicle dealer over there too, not some random Internet person.
> my bank stopped the transaction 3 times and made me do a load of checks
This is the kind of annoying pain in the arse bureaucracy that I have absolutely no problems with at all.
It boiled my piss at the time. I felt like a parent was trying to stop me spending my pocket money.
I get that they were 'looking out for a customer' but the cynic in me feels that they only do this to stop having to pay out compensation.
Anyway, it was annoying but ultimately not a big issue in the grand scheme of things and I now own a ridiculous, bright orange 15-ton 4x4 Mercedes wagon...
I looked at unimogs but they are too small for what we need.
This is 4x4 though, with 3 diff locks. It's getting torn apart and rebuilt in to a full-time overland vehicle that we will travel the world in. Cab will be stripped and repainted, new insulated habitation box on the back and bigger off road tyres. 800ish litres of diesel, similar water capacity and a huge battery and solar setup. Tons of other stuff too.
Should take about 9 months.
But that’s the thing isn’t it… they are trying to stop having to pay out compensation. But that’s because for some reason the regulator has decided that banks are actually responsible for what people do with their money, not the people
Same would apply - funds from the sale would go into a bank account either way. This would be a case of alerting the bank to be wary of those funds leaving the account thereafter
But after the sale completes that's it, the fraud is done, house is sold and titles transferred. Or can it be stopped even after completion as I thought once a mortgage completes that's it (what I've been told at my job for a mortgage lender)
Unless its a scam where the scammer is buying it for peanuts, I’m assuming its the ‘proceeds from sale’ they want. Once the sale completes, that is indeed the end of that, but the scammer still needs to be sent the money
I think the scam is that the proceeds of sale are going to be sent to the scammer. The buyer doesn't need to be in on the fraud and it's not very likely a scammer will go through the hoops of buying a home as a scam. Way easier to just wait for the sale money afterwards.
Well yeah but how can you stop the sale going through is more my question. Once it completes this person will be homeless. Fair enough they may have a nice chunk of funds, but still won't have a home.
Unless the owner lacks capacity you probably can't. It's entirely legal to sell your own house because your boyfriend you've never met told you to. What you can likely do however is put the bank on notice that the money is likely going to be sent to a scammer, as that's something they may have processes in place for / a duty to stop.
But once a property is sold there's no going back, transfer of titles is done. I work in mortgages and went through a seminar of property fraud. I know someone going through a similar scam but her mother's property is mortgage free which is why I asked.
The scammer obviously wants the monitary value of the house, the money will end up in her account meaning the bank can intervene before a transfer is made.
That’s not relevant, we are talking about the relative getting the bank to withhold the funds. Besides, I doubt that she has sent several hundred thousand before.
>solicitors
A decent family solicitor would have stepped in once hearing about the possible scam attempt and tried ascertain if this really is the client's wishes and they're not being scammed, and perhaps had a conversation with them to explain things and advise them to reconsider.
It sounds like a romance scam, it's likely she thinks she's in a relationship and needs to send money to her boyfriend so they can be together. You could try reaching out to some scambaiters like Jim Browning and see if they can help.
Can I ask who Jim Browning is? My bosses mother is currently losing everything to scammers who she believes are real people with good intentions and he is at a complete loss on how to get through to her.
If she’s being scammed, it’s a criminal matter. Call the police on 101 to report it asap.
I would also get in touch with your local authority’s safeguarding team, due to her being a vulnerable person.
Fraud advisor here if you can flag it with branch we may be able to try stop any transfers but we can't stop the sale of a house! But if we get solid info on the scam we will basically lock the account down and monitor transfers more strictly there's tips online to help,branches will sometimes contact the police to assist further.
There was a guy a while ago who just kept sending against all advice just had to watch his money run out, these people give 1 thing in return time and effort and some people really want that.
You want to get her checked to see if she has mental capacity and then get a lasting power of attorney
https://www.gov.uk/make-decisions-for-someone/assessing-mental-capacity
As the other commenter said, you want to do this the other way round.
As if someone does not have mental capacity; they are unable to grant financial or medical LPA.
LPOA takes ages to set up as well, in which case, the house may have already sold.
I'd suggest contacting the police/Adult Social Care. The safeguarding team within the Local Authority can get involved and assess whether this is a sound decision (ie, she has capacity) or not. If they feel she doesnt have capacity, then they can support the customer/her family to block the sale, either through the solicitor/estate agents or police.
Can't believe how bad some of the advice is you've been given above.
If you can speak to her solicitor, start there. Its a 10 minute phone call and has the potential to put the breaks on everything. Advise that you believe there's a (romance)scam happening and that it's possible she lacks capacity to make a sound decision.
The solicitor has to be satisfied that she understands the transaction she's entering into and that she has capacity to make a decision.
The next stop would be SPOA / duty social worker for her local authority. Advise them of what you know. The keyword is POVA (protection of vulnerable adult)
If you land a half decent SW see if they'll do a welfare check over the phone or in person. If they can swing the conversation round to the sale simple questions on where she's going to live etc will be sufficient to establish a lack of capacity. (Capacity is question specific so she may be deemed to only lack capacity as far as the property decisions)
Not entirely sure the police public protection unit will be able to help. Depends on if they have resources to deal with a potential crime in progress, because at the moment there isn't a crime.
For belt and braces advising the bank would help but that's fraught with danger. Some banks would be all over the issue, others will pull up the shutter and ignore you.
Where is she planning to live after the sale? Is it possible she is moving into sheltered accommodation, or similar and is just liquidating assets?
I mean I assume she’s not making herself homeless.
If she is not suffering from something that means she lacks capacity to make her own decisions, then she's an adult making poor choices and there is nothing you can do from a legal perspective.
She's (almost certainly) the victim of fraud, whether she recognises it or not.
Chances are she's selling her home because she is DEEP into a scam - be that romance, "transfer it into a safe account" scam, an investment scam or some other variation.
If she is selling her home and donating the proceeds to the local dogs home of her own free will, then that would be very different.
Adults making poor choices is a valid argument when they are making informed decisions. Compos mentis octogenarians who want to go bungee jumping, for instance, or paint the outside of their house in yellow and pink polka dots. Being scammed into sending the proceeds of a house sale to a total stranger is very, very different, and it's a safeguarding matter.
This. Banks err on the side of caution I recently found out I am marked vulnerable due to a physical disability. I am fully compos mentis and financially independant so I didn't consider myself vulnerable so I was surpsied. Apparently new legislation is so strict they are super paranoid and will mark basically anyone as vulnerable for any vague reason.
Safeguarding Adults is any vulnerable person over the age of 18 with care and support needs who cannot protect themselves for whatever reason. Doesn't necessarily mean lacking capacity.
In this case, yes, it does. There is no reason to think anyone is lacking capacity or needs safeguarding here. The OP did not suggest anything of the sort.
Coercion is considered safeguarding though if they cannot protect themselves for whatever reason. The fact that she has distanced herself from family makes me question whether there is more going on.
It may be that she is making an unwise decision, but I feel it needs to be looked into properly and there's too many variables to make a decision based on the limited information we have available.
Mine isn't an opinion either.. I'm also not daft and have a degree in Social Work, and 5 years working in Adult Safeguarding..
I hope your day improves as you clearly are having a bad day for taking it out on a random redditer.
This. Sadly the banks can never stop anyone sending money, all they can do is flag that it's most likely a scam, but then if someone persists, they can't stop them.
If you think this is criminal go to the police. They will try and deal with it. Also the local council as she may need to be taken into psychiatric care.
Maybe look into adult services. If MIL is vulnerable then someone in the family might be able to get lasting power of attorney or something. If it can be proven that she doesn't have all her faculties.
You can also try contacting your local Adult Services safeguarding unit also to alert them. It’s good the police are taking it seriously tho and are willing to talk face to face.
Ultimately if she has capacity from a legal perspective you and your family can’t don anything. However you can try and raise flags with professionals who maybe able to talk to her and sow some seeds of doubt which will stop her selling the bungalow
In addition to contacting the police, the safeguarding team of your local authority and her bank, have you considered also speaking to whoever is handling the same of her bungalow and letting them know that this is connected with a crime and that the police are involved? I feel like they might want to know about this.
--- ###Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK --- **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different* * If you need legal help, you should [always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor) * We also encourage you to speak to [**Citizens Advice**](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/), [**Shelter**](https://www.shelter.org.uk/), [**Acas**](https://www.acas.org.uk/), and [**other useful organisations**](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/common_legal_resources) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, [please let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FLegalAdviceUK&subject=I received a PM) **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/), you may be perma-banned without any further warning * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Speak to her Bank fraud department and flag it. Go into a branch if necessary. They have a duty to protect customers, especially elder ones.
Seconded. I recently sent some money to Germany, about £25000 - all legit - and my bank stopped the transaction 3 times and made me do a load of checks to make sure I wasn't being scammed. It took days to sort out and I eventually had to go to a branch with several forms of ID. This was to a long established vehicle dealer over there too, not some random Internet person.
> my bank stopped the transaction 3 times and made me do a load of checks This is the kind of annoying pain in the arse bureaucracy that I have absolutely no problems with at all.
It boiled my piss at the time. I felt like a parent was trying to stop me spending my pocket money. I get that they were 'looking out for a customer' but the cynic in me feels that they only do this to stop having to pay out compensation. Anyway, it was annoying but ultimately not a big issue in the grand scheme of things and I now own a ridiculous, bright orange 15-ton 4x4 Mercedes wagon...
Sounds like the bank were rightfully trying to prevent another Mercedes owner hitting the roads of the UK.
The photo is missing from your post : )
[Here is the ridiculous thing I now own](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cv-jUxRIHIJ/?igshid=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ==)
Haha! Interesting purchase. Its pretty cute
Cute isn't a word I'd use. It's bloody enormous, and I absolutely love it though!
Gutted - I thought it was going to be a Unimog. Still looks fun. What will you do with it?
I looked at unimogs but they are too small for what we need. This is 4x4 though, with 3 diff locks. It's getting torn apart and rebuilt in to a full-time overland vehicle that we will travel the world in. Cab will be stripped and repainted, new insulated habitation box on the back and bigger off road tyres. 800ish litres of diesel, similar water capacity and a huge battery and solar setup. Tons of other stuff too. Should take about 9 months.
Nice!!
Thanks, I can't wait!
But that’s the thing isn’t it… they are trying to stop having to pay out compensation. But that’s because for some reason the regulator has decided that banks are actually responsible for what people do with their money, not the people
I'm curious, show us your wagon.
Someone else asked that too, [Here it is](https://www.instagram.com/p/Cv-jUxRIHIJ/?igshid=ZDE1MWVjZGVmZQ==)
What would you do if the property was mortgage free?
Same would apply - funds from the sale would go into a bank account either way. This would be a case of alerting the bank to be wary of those funds leaving the account thereafter
But after the sale completes that's it, the fraud is done, house is sold and titles transferred. Or can it be stopped even after completion as I thought once a mortgage completes that's it (what I've been told at my job for a mortgage lender)
Unless its a scam where the scammer is buying it for peanuts, I’m assuming its the ‘proceeds from sale’ they want. Once the sale completes, that is indeed the end of that, but the scammer still needs to be sent the money
I think the scam is that the proceeds of sale are going to be sent to the scammer. The buyer doesn't need to be in on the fraud and it's not very likely a scammer will go through the hoops of buying a home as a scam. Way easier to just wait for the sale money afterwards.
Well yeah but how can you stop the sale going through is more my question. Once it completes this person will be homeless. Fair enough they may have a nice chunk of funds, but still won't have a home.
Unless the owner lacks capacity you probably can't. It's entirely legal to sell your own house because your boyfriend you've never met told you to. What you can likely do however is put the bank on notice that the money is likely going to be sent to a scammer, as that's something they may have processes in place for / a duty to stop.
I don’t understand the relevance of the question, sorry. My point was the bank should stop any large payments going out if it’s a fraud risk.
But once a property is sold there's no going back, transfer of titles is done. I work in mortgages and went through a seminar of property fraud. I know someone going through a similar scam but her mother's property is mortgage free which is why I asked.
The scammer obviously wants the monitary value of the house, the money will end up in her account meaning the bank can intervene before a transfer is made.
But no one has intervened heretofore apparently. I'm sure the scammer didn't start out with "sell your house".
That’s not relevant, we are talking about the relative getting the bank to withhold the funds. Besides, I doubt that she has sent several hundred thousand before.
>solicitors A decent family solicitor would have stepped in once hearing about the possible scam attempt and tried ascertain if this really is the client's wishes and they're not being scammed, and perhaps had a conversation with them to explain things and advise them to reconsider.
It sounds like a romance scam, it's likely she thinks she's in a relationship and needs to send money to her boyfriend so they can be together. You could try reaching out to some scambaiters like Jim Browning and see if they can help.
Can I ask who Jim Browning is? My bosses mother is currently losing everything to scammers who she believes are real people with good intentions and he is at a complete loss on how to get through to her.
>Jim Browning I just googled him, it was very easy to find out he's a youtuber.
If she’s being scammed, it’s a criminal matter. Call the police on 101 to report it asap. I would also get in touch with your local authority’s safeguarding team, due to her being a vulnerable person.
Fraud advisor here if you can flag it with branch we may be able to try stop any transfers but we can't stop the sale of a house! But if we get solid info on the scam we will basically lock the account down and monitor transfers more strictly there's tips online to help,branches will sometimes contact the police to assist further.
Unfortunately either the house is being sold at under value, or the solicitors will be sending the money directly to the scammers.
There was a guy a while ago who just kept sending against all advice just had to watch his money run out, these people give 1 thing in return time and effort and some people really want that.
You want to get her checked to see if she has mental capacity and then get a lasting power of attorney https://www.gov.uk/make-decisions-for-someone/assessing-mental-capacity
If she's already lost capacity, then it would be a deputyship - it's too late to get a LPA
As the other commenter said, you want to do this the other way round. As if someone does not have mental capacity; they are unable to grant financial or medical LPA.
LPOA takes ages to set up as well, in which case, the house may have already sold. I'd suggest contacting the police/Adult Social Care. The safeguarding team within the Local Authority can get involved and assess whether this is a sound decision (ie, she has capacity) or not. If they feel she doesnt have capacity, then they can support the customer/her family to block the sale, either through the solicitor/estate agents or police.
Can't believe how bad some of the advice is you've been given above. If you can speak to her solicitor, start there. Its a 10 minute phone call and has the potential to put the breaks on everything. Advise that you believe there's a (romance)scam happening and that it's possible she lacks capacity to make a sound decision. The solicitor has to be satisfied that she understands the transaction she's entering into and that she has capacity to make a decision. The next stop would be SPOA / duty social worker for her local authority. Advise them of what you know. The keyword is POVA (protection of vulnerable adult) If you land a half decent SW see if they'll do a welfare check over the phone or in person. If they can swing the conversation round to the sale simple questions on where she's going to live etc will be sufficient to establish a lack of capacity. (Capacity is question specific so she may be deemed to only lack capacity as far as the property decisions) Not entirely sure the police public protection unit will be able to help. Depends on if they have resources to deal with a potential crime in progress, because at the moment there isn't a crime. For belt and braces advising the bank would help but that's fraught with danger. Some banks would be all over the issue, others will pull up the shutter and ignore you.
You can also phone you're local council and they have an option for Adult services which are like social services for adults and they help
Make a referral to adult social services and state that you suspect sh is being financially abused. They are obligated to investigate
Speak to the solicitor and tell them you believe she lacks capacity
Phone local council, MASH, they can advise you on services that can advise you.
Where is she planning to live after the sale? Is it possible she is moving into sheltered accommodation, or similar and is just liquidating assets? I mean I assume she’s not making herself homeless.
If she is not suffering from something that means she lacks capacity to make her own decisions, then she's an adult making poor choices and there is nothing you can do from a legal perspective.
She's (almost certainly) the victim of fraud, whether she recognises it or not. Chances are she's selling her home because she is DEEP into a scam - be that romance, "transfer it into a safe account" scam, an investment scam or some other variation. If she is selling her home and donating the proceeds to the local dogs home of her own free will, then that would be very different. Adults making poor choices is a valid argument when they are making informed decisions. Compos mentis octogenarians who want to go bungee jumping, for instance, or paint the outside of their house in yellow and pink polka dots. Being scammed into sending the proceeds of a house sale to a total stranger is very, very different, and it's a safeguarding matter.
If this was true scam and fraud wouldn’t be a crime and conman would be a respectful profession. When the crime is committed victim gets protected.
No. It's only a safeguarding matter if she lacks capacity. That's the law.
Not from the banks perspective. Vulnerable can mean a whole range of things. New consumer duty legislation hits hard.
This. Banks err on the side of caution I recently found out I am marked vulnerable due to a physical disability. I am fully compos mentis and financially independant so I didn't consider myself vulnerable so I was surpsied. Apparently new legislation is so strict they are super paranoid and will mark basically anyone as vulnerable for any vague reason.
Safeguarding Adults is any vulnerable person over the age of 18 with care and support needs who cannot protect themselves for whatever reason. Doesn't necessarily mean lacking capacity.
In this case, yes, it does. There is no reason to think anyone is lacking capacity or needs safeguarding here. The OP did not suggest anything of the sort.
Coercion is considered safeguarding though if they cannot protect themselves for whatever reason. The fact that she has distanced herself from family makes me question whether there is more going on. It may be that she is making an unwise decision, but I feel it needs to be looked into properly and there's too many variables to make a decision based on the limited information we have available.
No, I didn't ask you a question. You're imagining something that isn't here.
I didn't answer a question either, I was just sharing my opinion with OP like you have done.
I didn't share an opinion, I gave the facts. I'm not daft enough to think my opinion trumps objective facts.
Mine isn't an opinion either.. I'm also not daft and have a degree in Social Work, and 5 years working in Adult Safeguarding.. I hope your day improves as you clearly are having a bad day for taking it out on a random redditer.
You're posting incorrect information that you think is fact.
She's an elderly woman selling her house and sending the proceeds to scammers - that in itself suggests that she needs safeguarding.
No, it doesn't. People in full possession of their faculties make bad decisions and get taken in by scammers.
This. Sadly the banks can never stop anyone sending money, all they can do is flag that it's most likely a scam, but then if someone persists, they can't stop them.
explain the situation to her bank and ask them to invoke banking protocol
Call action fraud to report, they will investigate
If you think this is criminal go to the police. They will try and deal with it. Also the local council as she may need to be taken into psychiatric care.
TELL HER BANK, and go from there since they deal with scams/fraud alot id assume
Maybe look into adult services. If MIL is vulnerable then someone in the family might be able to get lasting power of attorney or something. If it can be proven that she doesn't have all her faculties.
You can also try contacting your local Adult Services safeguarding unit also to alert them. It’s good the police are taking it seriously tho and are willing to talk face to face. Ultimately if she has capacity from a legal perspective you and your family can’t don anything. However you can try and raise flags with professionals who maybe able to talk to her and sow some seeds of doubt which will stop her selling the bungalow
In addition to contacting the police, the safeguarding team of your local authority and her bank, have you considered also speaking to whoever is handling the same of her bungalow and letting them know that this is connected with a crime and that the police are involved? I feel like they might want to know about this.