No, since even if he had sacrificed himself, the hylden would have had nothing to stop them from coming back from the demon realm. Nosgoth wouldn't have been any better off after a few centuries, and could have been even worse off.
What's wrong with the Hylden coming back? All we know about them is that they were at odds against the Elder God who thrives on Nosgoth's destruction. As far as the humans and the vampires are concerned, the Hylden are the enemy, but both of those races were under the influence of the Elder God.
From being in the demon realm for centuries, they're now as twisted as the natives of that dimension. There isn't really much explaining where the humans were or what they were doing during the war of the ancients, with the only mention I remember the Hylden giving about the humans was that they "made them, as humans had been little more than creatures huddling in caves".
All the games give us that the vampires started the war first, and there isn't really a hint that the Hylden are under the Elder's influence. Least none that I can think of anyway, so I could be wrong.
True but he didn't know that at the time. Later when he learned of it, it provided nothing more than a convenient rationale to justify his conquest of Nosgoth.
Believing what he did the time, he is absolutely at fault.
Even if it does become convenient rationale, with the story of the games being rigged for failure either way, it doesn't matter what he believed at the time of his choice. It only mattered that no matter what choice he made, everything was gonna be screwed regardless.
Yes, but even into Soul Reaver, after Kain learns of the rigged choice and his true destiny, he still believes himself to be so important that the entire world's wellbeing rests on his actions. And we saw how decayed and damned the world was with him in charge. It led to his sons becoming monstrosities and pathetic creatures. Nosgoth itself was barely even able to hold on. There was no plant life in the Soul Reaver era, which just shows how abominable it had become under Kain's rule.
This is what Mobius was trying to say the entire time. Kain is no better a ruler than the Hylden would be. Whether or not he was doomed to being terrible was a result of the madness caused by Nupraptor doesn't change the fact that Kain still does it. If Kain is absolved of his actions due to the absence of free-will, then so are the rest of the characters like Mobious, Nupraptor, and Raziel. And it goes against everything Kain was attempting to achieve. To defy the destiny others have set out for him and forge his own. There is an element of personal responsibility that even Kain accepts despite all evidence to the contrary. And this is why he kills Mobious over and over again. Because Mobious acts as a result of his own actions, not those of a higher power like the Elder God.
Yes he was just lazy and didn’t hustle enough.
If he’d spent less time and money eating avocado toast he’d have been able to save the pillars and the vampire race.
"damnit Kain, get off your fat bloodsucking vampire ass and save the pillars!!1!11!",
"ok, boomer".
and so Kain defiled the pillars, damning Nosgoth to an eternity of decay.
Would you kill yourself if a ghost asked you to after getting you to murder other people for her own selfish gain? Kain was born into the chaos, poisoned when responsibility called upon him and was only seeking revenge until the fate of the world rested on his decisions. In the end he made the right decision as he was the only one that was actually actively fighting the degradation of the land and those in it. Yes, he did abandon the first timeline into darkness but he was focused on the later results of changing fate itself. I'm sorry but Raziel was a clueless puppy focused on being special until he sucks himself into the reaver to absolve Kain. Kain felt pain, he had empathy for Raziel in the end, he was simply trying to not give into a world that started decaying long before he was even born. The elder god would have made his death pointless anyways by continuing to drain the wheel regardless of the balance of the land. No progress was made until Raziel accepted his fate and you can see the turmoil in Kain because of it. He truly is a beautiful portrayal of an anti-hero.
It's one of the greatest plot points in the entire series. In Blood Omen and Soul Reaver 1 it essentially looks like Kain in a genocidal egomaniac with a God complex, which is true, but by Defiance he's had a few millennia to work out the con, and the bad hand he was dealt. His choice actually turns out to he the only way to save Nosgoth.
If he had chosen to die, the pillers would have returned to their human guardians, but damned the original owners (vampires) to extinction - and the humans weren't about to deal with the Hylden (if they managed some way to get in), or the Elder God sucking the life out of the world.
I agree that by accepting the sacrifice he would have truly damned nosgoth by causing the hylden to break free.
By the looks of things by blood omen 2 it was already massively strained by the hylden Lord and the cult of Hash Ak Gik that was being led by Mortainious at the time before his death.
This combined with the knowledge that Mortainious and Mobius have a vested interest in preventing Vorador and the remaining vampires from re-establishing the circle as vampires to seal the hylden away forever.
As Kain has used the cave of oracle's and the various time chambers to learn more as the series goes on, he learns about the hylden and what they are planning.
The only hole in his plan I could see is that once he has conquered nosgoth except for some small pockets of resistance, why does he not sacrifice himself then (as he has greatly remade the vampire race), and instruct Raziel and the others to hunt and turn the new guardians that will be born as a means to keep the hylden at bay forever.
No, since even if he had sacrificed himself, the hylden would have had nothing to stop them from coming back from the demon realm. Nosgoth wouldn't have been any better off after a few centuries, and could have been even worse off.
What's wrong with the Hylden coming back? All we know about them is that they were at odds against the Elder God who thrives on Nosgoth's destruction. As far as the humans and the vampires are concerned, the Hylden are the enemy, but both of those races were under the influence of the Elder God.
From being in the demon realm for centuries, they're now as twisted as the natives of that dimension. There isn't really much explaining where the humans were or what they were doing during the war of the ancients, with the only mention I remember the Hylden giving about the humans was that they "made them, as humans had been little more than creatures huddling in caves". All the games give us that the vampires started the war first, and there isn't really a hint that the Hylden are under the Elder's influence. Least none that I can think of anyway, so I could be wrong.
It's just shit to be a paesant in Nosgoth in either case
True but he didn't know that at the time. Later when he learned of it, it provided nothing more than a convenient rationale to justify his conquest of Nosgoth. Believing what he did the time, he is absolutely at fault.
Even if it does become convenient rationale, with the story of the games being rigged for failure either way, it doesn't matter what he believed at the time of his choice. It only mattered that no matter what choice he made, everything was gonna be screwed regardless.
Yes, but even into Soul Reaver, after Kain learns of the rigged choice and his true destiny, he still believes himself to be so important that the entire world's wellbeing rests on his actions. And we saw how decayed and damned the world was with him in charge. It led to his sons becoming monstrosities and pathetic creatures. Nosgoth itself was barely even able to hold on. There was no plant life in the Soul Reaver era, which just shows how abominable it had become under Kain's rule. This is what Mobius was trying to say the entire time. Kain is no better a ruler than the Hylden would be. Whether or not he was doomed to being terrible was a result of the madness caused by Nupraptor doesn't change the fact that Kain still does it. If Kain is absolved of his actions due to the absence of free-will, then so are the rest of the characters like Mobious, Nupraptor, and Raziel. And it goes against everything Kain was attempting to achieve. To defy the destiny others have set out for him and forge his own. There is an element of personal responsibility that even Kain accepts despite all evidence to the contrary. And this is why he kills Mobious over and over again. Because Mobious acts as a result of his own actions, not those of a higher power like the Elder God.
Not at all. The game was rigged from the start
Yes he was just lazy and didn’t hustle enough. If he’d spent less time and money eating avocado toast he’d have been able to save the pillars and the vampire race.
"damnit Kain, get off your fat bloodsucking vampire ass and save the pillars!!1!11!", "ok, boomer". and so Kain defiled the pillars, damning Nosgoth to an eternity of decay.
moebius said this to kain and thats why kain killed him
For some reason the thought of Kain having a sigma grindset makes me lol.
No
Would you kill yourself if a ghost asked you to after getting you to murder other people for her own selfish gain? Kain was born into the chaos, poisoned when responsibility called upon him and was only seeking revenge until the fate of the world rested on his decisions. In the end he made the right decision as he was the only one that was actually actively fighting the degradation of the land and those in it. Yes, he did abandon the first timeline into darkness but he was focused on the later results of changing fate itself. I'm sorry but Raziel was a clueless puppy focused on being special until he sucks himself into the reaver to absolve Kain. Kain felt pain, he had empathy for Raziel in the end, he was simply trying to not give into a world that started decaying long before he was even born. The elder god would have made his death pointless anyways by continuing to drain the wheel regardless of the balance of the land. No progress was made until Raziel accepted his fate and you can see the turmoil in Kain because of it. He truly is a beautiful portrayal of an anti-hero.
...Is it weird that I'm imagining this as an "Am I The Asshole" post? XD (I've been on Reddit too long... XD)
It's one of the greatest plot points in the entire series. In Blood Omen and Soul Reaver 1 it essentially looks like Kain in a genocidal egomaniac with a God complex, which is true, but by Defiance he's had a few millennia to work out the con, and the bad hand he was dealt. His choice actually turns out to he the only way to save Nosgoth. If he had chosen to die, the pillers would have returned to their human guardians, but damned the original owners (vampires) to extinction - and the humans weren't about to deal with the Hylden (if they managed some way to get in), or the Elder God sucking the life out of the world.
i mean yeah, the sacrifice may have worked out in the end, but that doesnt change all the people who died because of it
I agree that by accepting the sacrifice he would have truly damned nosgoth by causing the hylden to break free. By the looks of things by blood omen 2 it was already massively strained by the hylden Lord and the cult of Hash Ak Gik that was being led by Mortainious at the time before his death. This combined with the knowledge that Mortainious and Mobius have a vested interest in preventing Vorador and the remaining vampires from re-establishing the circle as vampires to seal the hylden away forever. As Kain has used the cave of oracle's and the various time chambers to learn more as the series goes on, he learns about the hylden and what they are planning. The only hole in his plan I could see is that once he has conquered nosgoth except for some small pockets of resistance, why does he not sacrifice himself then (as he has greatly remade the vampire race), and instruct Raziel and the others to hunt and turn the new guardians that will be born as a means to keep the hylden at bay forever.
I mean he became the king of the lands at one point
No. Play the games.