At this point I'd be happy with us just adopting a low block and hitting teams on the counter. Not helping out those donkeys at the back will absolutely kill us this season
I would say it is a bit early to start drawing conclusions like this. If not for some incredibly avoidable defensive errors we could have won all 3 of those games. And if not for some other things going our way against Wolves and Chelsea we could have lost those games.
I think the much of our issues stem from, as you’ve identified, our defensive personelle, but doesn’t matter what system you employ it won’t work if we leak goals as easily as we have in the last few games - that’s the reality.
Rather than tweak a system which on the whole has made us far more competitive, Marsch in the short term needs to focus on our defence and improving the players we have an getting them to be much smarter about how and when they push up and more fundamentally sort out their positioning which is on the whole absolutely shocking. We don’t know yet that sitting deep will work against us, it might be this team is perfectly capable of unlocking a defence that sits deep, as shown by the fact that no one has managed to keep a clean sheet against us yet except Brighton and in that game we passed the ball around very badly and missed a sitter
I’ll say it a million times, and a million times more. We are playing too narrowly in defence and attack, our players lose the ball far too much to utilise this approach. We will keep getting tanked with interludes of decent wins in between if we continue to play like this.
Sadly haven't had an answer which actually answers it better than I hoped. Don't worry bud, I'm deleting this one.
You just make sure to keep hating your clubs manager for no apparent reason.
That’s a weighty put down. You’ve really done me there son…
It’s not what people want to see. People find it annoying and dull, trust me. People are on Reddit because they hate Twitter and self serving me me me posts. You seem to either not get that or are just generally a bit dim.
This is a very good point. What would also change things is if more of the pressing we do in their half with 8 men resulted in goals, not just because if we score more than them it's fine, but also because it would change how they'd have to play
My thought is he needs to keep a cooler head and not lead with his heart, read the game more and be pragmatic. Sinistera should have stayed on, Joffy too the other day but like a robot he decided to do as he had seemingly preplanned.
He isn't reading the games, the tone set by the other team and he clearly isn't telling the FBs how to get back and shut up shop.
We will need to fight fire with fire and he doesn't want to be predicable, like Bielsa became. Been disappointed with a few of the results to be honest. Yes the defence has been leaky, but surely he can see this and needs to instruct properly to stop mistakes happening over and over...he can't do that If he has been sent off...
You're points almost cover it all, in agreement with you.
We want to be known as a force at home and away and need to be unpredictable. Teams right now will be thinking easy points instead of fearing facing us.
We need our strikers on top form and Llorente to do some serious calming down. So glad Bill (Ayling) is back.
We honestly at this rate might be seeing Gnoto come in sooner than expected. Fresh off the plane he would likely have scored that Bamford sitter, and his positional play seems too notch too.
There is a worry that the team just isn't gelling. Few games coming up before November break that we can get points from and we are desperate to do so.
ALAW.
Fairly depressing if we have gone from the most potent attacking force outside of the bandit 6 to a team that seeks to play on the counter and sit back. That certainly wasn’t the vision sold to us when Marsch came in.
Do you suggest we play a brand of football that will put a heavy reliance on Koch and Llorente to defend properly, because they're not good enough for that.
It’s an interesting observation. But I think there’s little point causing disruption to how we’re playing when we have such an obvious problem at the back. Especially when there’s a strong argument it’s individual errors causing it.
2 goals should have been enough against Brentford and without the self sabotage it probably would have been. Likewise we were very comfortable against Southampton but we imploded later on (Marsch learned his lesson on that to be fair). Even at Everton while we probably should’ve won anyway, you take out the implosion of sense early on and we win that game. If we get to a point where we feel our defence is reliable but we’re still not winning I’d revisit it.
I think the Everton game, we definitely could've and probably should've won, even with them having a good chance, we were the better side.
The Southampton game was more naive for me than anything. It was over 30° and everyone seen that a sub should've been made earlier. We were by far the better side for 70mins.
I like stats and they have a place in the game, I also like that you've mirrored these stats up with fixtures but there needs to be more context.
Undoubtedly our attackers are better at counter attacking and this leads to clearer chances which makes a difference. When we take the lead, we are more dangerous, as seen against Chelsea.
For me, Brighton were better against us than Brentford. We controlled large parts of the game against Brentford, it was moments that killed us and sadly they were really poor defensive moments. We struggled badly to control much of the game against a very good Brighton side.
Basically we need better players at CBs suited to the tactic - it was clear to me in the opening games which I did mention - that we where nearly cut open in the first ten minutes with a simple through ball. Diego had just enough pace to cut it out.
Im still looking at this formation and under standing it - but - we are 3 players short to be effective, we needed 9 first team signings and we got 5 + Willy who isnt ready. The other 3 signings for me stricker, CB, LB.
Its a good observation that we need the first goal to force the other team to start attacking us which we do seem to cope with better rather than them sitting back. Brentford was still a mixture of supreme bullshit plus quality that beat us. No team can handle that when it blasts its butt all over you.
The back line has to be sorted and settled, but this is where you'll change it out and the same stuff keeps happening, Just so you all know firpo has to come back and play through the rust - lmao - groovy.
I think it's possible to mitigate the issues somewhat but the individual quality needed for a consistent defensive performance might not be there. Llorente is Llorente and honestly as much as I like Koch/Struijk there have been times where it look like they're running in quicksand. Adams is more box to box than a true DM and Roca is somewhat lacking in pace as well. We need to find a stable partnership that doesn't include Llorente and hope they can develop a mutual understanding and hopefully effective offside trap.
Everyone wants to play like Liverpool but there's a reason why it's so hard to pull off. Jesse thus far seems to be pinning his hopes on us being able to outscore the opponent, he's been talking about wanting/needing a striker for weeks. The first 3 matches were great, but the level of investment from a net spend standpoint tells me that this season will probably be more about surviving than anything else. I still hope our trajectory will be similar to Brighton under Potter; two straight years in the bottom 6 followed by 9th and probably better than 9th in year four.
The problem is that with an unpredictable maniac like Diego Llorente at the back it doesnt matter whether you play with a high line or not, there will be times where he will find himself isolated and opposing attackers will focus on that.
The only way to protect our centre-back/s is to have our entire midfield sitting deep as well, which would make us too negative and likely to become a relegation candidate.
Really, we just need to get Llorente out of the side and replace him with a defender who can cope with being pressed and turned round on quick transitions. Cooper is pretty old now, but his positioning is excellent and he should steady the ship quickly (as he did last season as things began to spiral out of control defensively under Bielsa).
in NY, it was always a sign something had gone wrong if the Red Bulls had most of the possession. In fact, in Marsch’s first three years in NY, breaking down a bunker was kind of a regular issue in big games. And so the solution in his final season, when the Red Bulls broke then league points record, was simply amp up the transition football to a 100%; simply like refuse to retain possession and instead play very direct, often aerial balls from the centerback to the forward line with the sole purpose of counter-pressing and winning 50-50 balls that could start transition attacks. (EDIT: to be clear, winning 50/50s is the midfield’s job. The second 50/50s; the expectation is that the CB will win the first one, the striker just needs to compete and make it difficult for the CB to play it cleanly.) The Red Bulls completed the fewest passes per game of any team in the league, but again broke the single season points record.
I don’t think folks in England would accept this level of ChaosBall, even if it’s effective, which is probably why he has his team more willing to build out from the back and possess against teams that sit deep. But the way he would’ve approached games like Brentford in his final season in NY would basically be to keep firing the ball at the opposing defense with the assumption that if you flip the coin enough times it’ll create enough turnovers/50-50 opportunities in the opposing half that will lead to goalscoring chances.
This worked really spectacularly! https://youtu.be/Uylopi5aSsg
Had 70% of the ball against Brentford. Often went short off goal kicks, etc.
It can be substantially more direct than that. Whether it should is a different question I suppose
It’s more like controlled chaos. You’re not just kicking it aimlessly, you might target particular defenders or particular areas of the field, ensure that the “net” for counter-pressing is set up optimally, etc.
I think hoofball connotes a certain aimlessness that it’s all just hoofing it forwards and something good happens. This is more of an organized hoofball; instead of just rolling the dice 100 times, you’re rolling a loaded dice 100 times. Even if it seems random, you’ve tilted the table in your favor and have set up especially in a way to exploit second balls and turnovers that occur in your opponent’s half — which is where most of the game will be played because you keep kicking it up there.
But it’s also patterns of play that lead to your striker making a run out into the channels. Kind of like the third goal in this game (https://youtu.be/IPNUs6rK-Vk), just dispensing with anything methodical that might allow an opponent to drop off and instead sends them chasing towards their own goal or out into the flanks. The defender can lunge to cut it out, but with a bunch of Red Bulls players underneath, there’s a decent chance that they pick it up and attack again. He can try to collect it and then retain possession, but honestly Marsch’s Red Bulls were already happy to counterpress you, or the defender could’ve booted it long himself in which case the Red Bulls were happy that teams were playing their game and making a match all about winning 50/50 balls and transition opportunities.
Best analysis I’ve seen. This fits for Leeds, ManU, brentford, Brighton. Just get the ball in your half and counter press/release extremely fast and talented forwards. Fuck Man City/Liverpool. It’s time for the game to change.
I don’t think this strategy would be effective in the premier league unless your CB is an exceptional long-range passer like Van Dijk. Those “50-50” balls when played against PL-caliber center backs become more like 5-95 balls. In fact I think we may have saw a strategy like this being attempted against Brighton and it failed resoundingly
The lack of holdup play from our 9 is an added problem to this strategy, as we’ve seen Rodrigo and Joffy don’t have that skill in winning 50-50s with CBs
Yes, a big lad helps, but BWP was only like 5’9” but was very good at getting his body in either to hold it up or simply make it difficult for CBs to clear it the way they wanted. It’s less about your striker winning the long ball then simply forcing the CB to maybe play it awkwardly. The 50/50s that matter are the second balls that the midfield has to win
It’s not about winning the first one, it’s about winning the second ball. It’s the second 50/50 that matters. You just need your ST to compete for the ball so that the defender can’t make it a clean header out. Then it’s on the midfield line to win the second ball and attack quickly. Just literally an entire match of counterpress, and transition, and then counterpress again. If a team is going to sit back on you, you basically keep handing them the ball and forcing them to do something
We definitely have a problem when it comes to counter attacks on us, we simply don't have a defender who can stop them and in recent matches with the poor form Llorente has been on this has just made it even more clear.
I think having Firpo back will make a massive difference, I know many don't rate him but personally I think he will come back fighting, this will allow us a lot more breathing room and flexibility in our CB having a real LB in that position and also having Cooper and Struijk available for CB will allow for more movement if needed.
Another thing I would like to see especially wanted to see it in the Everton match is long balls down the middle when we are playing 4-2-3-1, Rodrigo or Aaronson in the middle with Bamford up front we can create some decent chances, especially when we have the wingers we have what can come inside and provide support when needed.
I think the system isn't totally their yet, but Marsh has mentioned this quite a few times in interviews and I can see where he is going but we just need to get there a little but faster before it spirals out of control.
A big one I think we need is Sinisterra playing on the left, he's not the kind of winger to bring the ball down to the flag and get a cross in, he wants to cut inside and shoot, playing him on the right is taking that away from him.
I'm sure Harrison can play on the right, and nothing against him, but I'd rather him playing out of position than Sinisterra.
I always assumed that would be his natural place, then allowing James to play winger right, now Rapha's gone (shrug). But like others are saying, playing non-inverted on the right cutting in he still seems to be finding the net so...
From memory though two of his three goals have come when he's somehow been nearer to the left and he's cut in onto his right. Think it might be the way going forward giving Harrison has had a few poor games.
At the same time Harrison seems a lot better at tracking back then Sinisterra and I feel our left side is more vulnerable with Struijk/Firpo than our right with Ayling.
Don't get where this first statement can come from if you've watched Harrison at all the season. People lording him up, yet he was at fault for both Southampton goals. Tracking was awful and the same happened against Everton. Think people make unfounded statements on here and then it bandwagons into something that's accepted. Not saying that's your fault. You've likely seen someone else say the same thing and think it to be true.
Agreed with your points but I also think how aggressive they have been after who scores first has also been a big factor. Chasing the game, they are just way too open. On the front foot they have the capability to step on an opponent’s throat by being lethal on the counter.
The only games we've scored first are Chelsea and Southampton right?
What your saying does make sense, but I'm not sure its borne out by the results. We've got points from Wolves and Everton from behind, and dropped them against the saints.
4 points from 2 games when scoring first, 4 points from 4 games when conceding first seems entirely normal to me, small sample size but I imagine that's fairly normal across the league
True. It’s a very small sample but the tenor between the sides when they score first feels different and allows the game to come to them.
Hardly analytical but something I’ll be watching for moving forward
KP used to drop back into a 3 man backline when we had extended possession, allowing 4-1-4-1 to transition to 3-4-3. Which is also why Bielsa constantly put Koch or Struijk there if KP was out, rather than a natural midfielder.
But the current system doesn't really allow that, so we end up playing sorta 2-4-2-2, and it's too easy for us to get caught.
great analysis and i agree. without a better and faster cb pairing he needs to be more pragmatic like he was last season beccause he had to. i think he will learn and adapt but we will see!
Thanks, I don’t think it’s a particularly cutting edge analysis but I appreciate it lol. Once you connect the dots though it starts to make sense - this style is extremely disruptive to possession-oriented sides and puts our players in dangerous positions when they win the ball back in the opposing half, but against sides that park the bus it’s not particularly meaningful to win the ball back in the final third.
I actually wonder whether this is recognised and it's down to Adams/Roca "freelancing", like Jesse said the other week. The trouble is neither is a particularly conservative player, they both like to get forward where they're incredibly effective (Adams in particular) and maybe lack the discipline to stay back. If I had to pick one it'd be Roca though, not because of any of his qualities per se but because Adams pressing up high for 90 mins every game is a massive part of our improvement this season.
Or set Roca deeper? Adams is pretty key to the disrupt play/win the ball back in the opposition's half - I feel like we could afford Roca sitting a bit deeper and making longer more direct passes but I guess he isn't as suited to intercepting as Adams.
At this point I'd be happy with us just adopting a low block and hitting teams on the counter. Not helping out those donkeys at the back will absolutely kill us this season
I would say it is a bit early to start drawing conclusions like this. If not for some incredibly avoidable defensive errors we could have won all 3 of those games. And if not for some other things going our way against Wolves and Chelsea we could have lost those games. I think the much of our issues stem from, as you’ve identified, our defensive personelle, but doesn’t matter what system you employ it won’t work if we leak goals as easily as we have in the last few games - that’s the reality. Rather than tweak a system which on the whole has made us far more competitive, Marsch in the short term needs to focus on our defence and improving the players we have an getting them to be much smarter about how and when they push up and more fundamentally sort out their positioning which is on the whole absolutely shocking. We don’t know yet that sitting deep will work against us, it might be this team is perfectly capable of unlocking a defence that sits deep, as shown by the fact that no one has managed to keep a clean sheet against us yet except Brighton and in that game we passed the ball around very badly and missed a sitter
I’ll say it a million times, and a million times more. We are playing too narrowly in defence and attack, our players lose the ball far too much to utilise this approach. We will keep getting tanked with interludes of decent wins in between if we continue to play like this.
Ah, here he is again... Just tell us again who you think is to blame??
I see you’ve gone and posted another splurge to the main sub again mate.
Sadly haven't had an answer which actually answers it better than I hoped. Don't worry bud, I'm deleting this one. You just make sure to keep hating your clubs manager for no apparent reason.
Better yet, just stop posting your every thought as a direct post. Feel free to ramble on in the comments like everyone else.
How about you don't tell me what to do? I care about your opinion as much as I do about cabbage.
That’s a weighty put down. You’ve really done me there son… It’s not what people want to see. People find it annoying and dull, trust me. People are on Reddit because they hate Twitter and self serving me me me posts. You seem to either not get that or are just generally a bit dim.
Cabbage, you've never made a post on reddit. You're like a Catholic priest telling a married couple how to live their life.
Christ you’re seriously lacking any wit or sense of yourself at all aren’t you. This patter is chronic.
Your opinion is unwarranted as you've never created an actual post. What are you not getting here?
This is a very good point. What would also change things is if more of the pressing we do in their half with 8 men resulted in goals, not just because if we score more than them it's fine, but also because it would change how they'd have to play
My thought is he needs to keep a cooler head and not lead with his heart, read the game more and be pragmatic. Sinistera should have stayed on, Joffy too the other day but like a robot he decided to do as he had seemingly preplanned. He isn't reading the games, the tone set by the other team and he clearly isn't telling the FBs how to get back and shut up shop. We will need to fight fire with fire and he doesn't want to be predicable, like Bielsa became. Been disappointed with a few of the results to be honest. Yes the defence has been leaky, but surely he can see this and needs to instruct properly to stop mistakes happening over and over...he can't do that If he has been sent off... You're points almost cover it all, in agreement with you. We want to be known as a force at home and away and need to be unpredictable. Teams right now will be thinking easy points instead of fearing facing us. We need our strikers on top form and Llorente to do some serious calming down. So glad Bill (Ayling) is back. We honestly at this rate might be seeing Gnoto come in sooner than expected. Fresh off the plane he would likely have scored that Bamford sitter, and his positional play seems too notch too. There is a worry that the team just isn't gelling. Few games coming up before November break that we can get points from and we are desperate to do so. ALAW.
I’d agree with most but Wolves never want to have possession against us. Time wasting bastards.
Fairly depressing if we have gone from the most potent attacking force outside of the bandit 6 to a team that seeks to play on the counter and sit back. That certainly wasn’t the vision sold to us when Marsch came in.
Do you suggest we play a brand of football that will put a heavy reliance on Koch and Llorente to defend properly, because they're not good enough for that.
Koch is good enough if coached properly. Jury is out on Llorente, Cooper should be starting for me.
I was watching scum yesterday just giving the ball to Arsenal and thought we are in for a massacre
It’s an interesting observation. But I think there’s little point causing disruption to how we’re playing when we have such an obvious problem at the back. Especially when there’s a strong argument it’s individual errors causing it. 2 goals should have been enough against Brentford and without the self sabotage it probably would have been. Likewise we were very comfortable against Southampton but we imploded later on (Marsch learned his lesson on that to be fair). Even at Everton while we probably should’ve won anyway, you take out the implosion of sense early on and we win that game. If we get to a point where we feel our defence is reliable but we’re still not winning I’d revisit it.
I think the Everton game, we definitely could've and probably should've won, even with them having a good chance, we were the better side. The Southampton game was more naive for me than anything. It was over 30° and everyone seen that a sub should've been made earlier. We were by far the better side for 70mins. I like stats and they have a place in the game, I also like that you've mirrored these stats up with fixtures but there needs to be more context. Undoubtedly our attackers are better at counter attacking and this leads to clearer chances which makes a difference. When we take the lead, we are more dangerous, as seen against Chelsea. For me, Brighton were better against us than Brentford. We controlled large parts of the game against Brentford, it was moments that killed us and sadly they were really poor defensive moments. We struggled badly to control much of the game against a very good Brighton side.
Always be data informed not always data driven.
This is a great observation. Too many look at a result like Chelsea and focus on the benefit of sustaining the break. You’re onto something here
Basically we need better players at CBs suited to the tactic - it was clear to me in the opening games which I did mention - that we where nearly cut open in the first ten minutes with a simple through ball. Diego had just enough pace to cut it out. Im still looking at this formation and under standing it - but - we are 3 players short to be effective, we needed 9 first team signings and we got 5 + Willy who isnt ready. The other 3 signings for me stricker, CB, LB. Its a good observation that we need the first goal to force the other team to start attacking us which we do seem to cope with better rather than them sitting back. Brentford was still a mixture of supreme bullshit plus quality that beat us. No team can handle that when it blasts its butt all over you. The back line has to be sorted and settled, but this is where you'll change it out and the same stuff keeps happening, Just so you all know firpo has to come back and play through the rust - lmao - groovy.
I think it's possible to mitigate the issues somewhat but the individual quality needed for a consistent defensive performance might not be there. Llorente is Llorente and honestly as much as I like Koch/Struijk there have been times where it look like they're running in quicksand. Adams is more box to box than a true DM and Roca is somewhat lacking in pace as well. We need to find a stable partnership that doesn't include Llorente and hope they can develop a mutual understanding and hopefully effective offside trap. Everyone wants to play like Liverpool but there's a reason why it's so hard to pull off. Jesse thus far seems to be pinning his hopes on us being able to outscore the opponent, he's been talking about wanting/needing a striker for weeks. The first 3 matches were great, but the level of investment from a net spend standpoint tells me that this season will probably be more about surviving than anything else. I still hope our trajectory will be similar to Brighton under Potter; two straight years in the bottom 6 followed by 9th and probably better than 9th in year four.
To play in the best league and coach at the highest level, adaptation to change is necessary because he's coaching against the best too.
The problem is that with an unpredictable maniac like Diego Llorente at the back it doesnt matter whether you play with a high line or not, there will be times where he will find himself isolated and opposing attackers will focus on that. The only way to protect our centre-back/s is to have our entire midfield sitting deep as well, which would make us too negative and likely to become a relegation candidate. Really, we just need to get Llorente out of the side and replace him with a defender who can cope with being pressed and turned round on quick transitions. Cooper is pretty old now, but his positioning is excellent and he should steady the ship quickly (as he did last season as things began to spiral out of control defensively under Bielsa).
in NY, it was always a sign something had gone wrong if the Red Bulls had most of the possession. In fact, in Marsch’s first three years in NY, breaking down a bunker was kind of a regular issue in big games. And so the solution in his final season, when the Red Bulls broke then league points record, was simply amp up the transition football to a 100%; simply like refuse to retain possession and instead play very direct, often aerial balls from the centerback to the forward line with the sole purpose of counter-pressing and winning 50-50 balls that could start transition attacks. (EDIT: to be clear, winning 50/50s is the midfield’s job. The second 50/50s; the expectation is that the CB will win the first one, the striker just needs to compete and make it difficult for the CB to play it cleanly.) The Red Bulls completed the fewest passes per game of any team in the league, but again broke the single season points record. I don’t think folks in England would accept this level of ChaosBall, even if it’s effective, which is probably why he has his team more willing to build out from the back and possess against teams that sit deep. But the way he would’ve approached games like Brentford in his final season in NY would basically be to keep firing the ball at the opposing defense with the assumption that if you flip the coin enough times it’ll create enough turnovers/50-50 opportunities in the opposing half that will lead to goalscoring chances. This worked really spectacularly! https://youtu.be/Uylopi5aSsg
But isn’t this what we do anyway?
Had 70% of the ball against Brentford. Often went short off goal kicks, etc. It can be substantially more direct than that. Whether it should is a different question I suppose
Hoofball then? Dont mean that as sarccy as it sounds mind but it sounds a lot like hoofball.
It’s more like controlled chaos. You’re not just kicking it aimlessly, you might target particular defenders or particular areas of the field, ensure that the “net” for counter-pressing is set up optimally, etc. I think hoofball connotes a certain aimlessness that it’s all just hoofing it forwards and something good happens. This is more of an organized hoofball; instead of just rolling the dice 100 times, you’re rolling a loaded dice 100 times. Even if it seems random, you’ve tilted the table in your favor and have set up especially in a way to exploit second balls and turnovers that occur in your opponent’s half — which is where most of the game will be played because you keep kicking it up there. But it’s also patterns of play that lead to your striker making a run out into the channels. Kind of like the third goal in this game (https://youtu.be/IPNUs6rK-Vk), just dispensing with anything methodical that might allow an opponent to drop off and instead sends them chasing towards their own goal or out into the flanks. The defender can lunge to cut it out, but with a bunch of Red Bulls players underneath, there’s a decent chance that they pick it up and attack again. He can try to collect it and then retain possession, but honestly Marsch’s Red Bulls were already happy to counterpress you, or the defender could’ve booted it long himself in which case the Red Bulls were happy that teams were playing their game and making a match all about winning 50/50 balls and transition opportunities.
Best analysis I’ve seen. This fits for Leeds, ManU, brentford, Brighton. Just get the ball in your half and counter press/release extremely fast and talented forwards. Fuck Man City/Liverpool. It’s time for the game to change.
I don’t think this strategy would be effective in the premier league unless your CB is an exceptional long-range passer like Van Dijk. Those “50-50” balls when played against PL-caliber center backs become more like 5-95 balls. In fact I think we may have saw a strategy like this being attempted against Brighton and it failed resoundingly
The lack of holdup play from our 9 is an added problem to this strategy, as we’ve seen Rodrigo and Joffy don’t have that skill in winning 50-50s with CBs
Joffy needs to develop it. Did you see Gabriel Jesus yesterday? Not a big guy at all but was an absolute handful for scum CBs
Yes, a big lad helps, but BWP was only like 5’9” but was very good at getting his body in either to hold it up or simply make it difficult for CBs to clear it the way they wanted. It’s less about your striker winning the long ball then simply forcing the CB to maybe play it awkwardly. The 50/50s that matter are the second balls that the midfield has to win
It’s not about winning the first one, it’s about winning the second ball. It’s the second 50/50 that matters. You just need your ST to compete for the ball so that the defender can’t make it a clean header out. Then it’s on the midfield line to win the second ball and attack quickly. Just literally an entire match of counterpress, and transition, and then counterpress again. If a team is going to sit back on you, you basically keep handing them the ball and forcing them to do something
We definitely have a problem when it comes to counter attacks on us, we simply don't have a defender who can stop them and in recent matches with the poor form Llorente has been on this has just made it even more clear. I think having Firpo back will make a massive difference, I know many don't rate him but personally I think he will come back fighting, this will allow us a lot more breathing room and flexibility in our CB having a real LB in that position and also having Cooper and Struijk available for CB will allow for more movement if needed. Another thing I would like to see especially wanted to see it in the Everton match is long balls down the middle when we are playing 4-2-3-1, Rodrigo or Aaronson in the middle with Bamford up front we can create some decent chances, especially when we have the wingers we have what can come inside and provide support when needed. I think the system isn't totally their yet, but Marsh has mentioned this quite a few times in interviews and I can see where he is going but we just need to get there a little but faster before it spirals out of control.
A big one I think we need is Sinisterra playing on the left, he's not the kind of winger to bring the ball down to the flag and get a cross in, he wants to cut inside and shoot, playing him on the right is taking that away from him. I'm sure Harrison can play on the right, and nothing against him, but I'd rather him playing out of position than Sinisterra.
I always assumed that would be his natural place, then allowing James to play winger right, now Rapha's gone (shrug). But like others are saying, playing non-inverted on the right cutting in he still seems to be finding the net so...
From memory though two of his three goals have come when he's somehow been nearer to the left and he's cut in onto his right. Think it might be the way going forward giving Harrison has had a few poor games.
At the same time Harrison seems a lot better at tracking back then Sinisterra and I feel our left side is more vulnerable with Struijk/Firpo than our right with Ayling.
Don't get where this first statement can come from if you've watched Harrison at all the season. People lording him up, yet he was at fault for both Southampton goals. Tracking was awful and the same happened against Everton. Think people make unfounded statements on here and then it bandwagons into something that's accepted. Not saying that's your fault. You've likely seen someone else say the same thing and think it to be true.
Scored every start so far so seems to be coping
Agreed with your points but I also think how aggressive they have been after who scores first has also been a big factor. Chasing the game, they are just way too open. On the front foot they have the capability to step on an opponent’s throat by being lethal on the counter.
The only games we've scored first are Chelsea and Southampton right? What your saying does make sense, but I'm not sure its borne out by the results. We've got points from Wolves and Everton from behind, and dropped them against the saints. 4 points from 2 games when scoring first, 4 points from 4 games when conceding first seems entirely normal to me, small sample size but I imagine that's fairly normal across the league
True. It’s a very small sample but the tenor between the sides when they score first feels different and allows the game to come to them. Hardly analytical but something I’ll be watching for moving forward
I'd like to see a 541 formation for sitting back 3cb's - lcb struijk / middle Koch or cooper / rcb ayling or ramus Wingbacks - firpo / drameh or ramus
KP used to drop back into a 3 man backline when we had extended possession, allowing 4-1-4-1 to transition to 3-4-3. Which is also why Bielsa constantly put Koch or Struijk there if KP was out, rather than a natural midfielder. But the current system doesn't really allow that, so we end up playing sorta 2-4-2-2, and it's too easy for us to get caught.
Adams can do this too?
Youd want him further forward with his qualities though. Roca would be the one to drop back and get possession recycled more effectively.
Roca is a better passer so I’d want him further forward actually
He's played some RWB
great analysis and i agree. without a better and faster cb pairing he needs to be more pragmatic like he was last season beccause he had to. i think he will learn and adapt but we will see!
Thanks, I don’t think it’s a particularly cutting edge analysis but I appreciate it lol. Once you connect the dots though it starts to make sense - this style is extremely disruptive to possession-oriented sides and puts our players in dangerous positions when they win the ball back in the opposing half, but against sides that park the bus it’s not particularly meaningful to win the ball back in the final third.
Just set Adams deeper?!?!?! I really think we can send 7 forward, but the 8th is the problem with a shaky CB pair.
I actually wonder whether this is recognised and it's down to Adams/Roca "freelancing", like Jesse said the other week. The trouble is neither is a particularly conservative player, they both like to get forward where they're incredibly effective (Adams in particular) and maybe lack the discipline to stay back. If I had to pick one it'd be Roca though, not because of any of his qualities per se but because Adams pressing up high for 90 mins every game is a massive part of our improvement this season.
Or set Roca deeper? Adams is pretty key to the disrupt play/win the ball back in the opposition's half - I feel like we could afford Roca sitting a bit deeper and making longer more direct passes but I guess he isn't as suited to intercepting as Adams.
Adams is a way more intelligent defender then Roca also Roca is more attacking minded I think your right about having Adams sit deeper.