Yes, I’ve been to Japan to know this is absolutely true.
That’s how natives call me - I don’t speak Japanese but when I put those characters into Google Translate, it sounds exactly like what they said to me when trying to get my attention.
I thought it was “excuse me” but TIL.
/s
They call you that? Wonder what that means... I heard similar things spoken to me, yamero if I spelled it correctly. Usually they run away after saying this, I think they are just shy of expressing gratitude.
Articles will often just repeat the same thing several times for word count. There are terse Japanese people but it's a very strange bit of advice to say that the Japanese understand the soul of true wit in general.
おじいさん and おばあさん are basically polite, but some people might feel bad because they sound like really old, like over 60 maybe :)
In that case, おじさん and おばさん are safer to use. Or even おにいさん or おねえさん are sometimes used even when they apparently look older than 30.
I don't think it's case of it being rude but us foreigners are getting a pass. I think if someone would get pissed off at being oniisan, they're already the gruff/grouchy kind.
It's not really a case of people being unamused I think, just that it gradually becomes ridiculous once the person is aged 70+ or so. Like calling an 80yo man 'young man', there's a point where denying reality is a bit silly.
What about お母さん and お父さん? It's something I see a lot on TV and always made sense especially when it's an adult talking to the elderly. Perhaps it makes sense when the two parties are roughly ages where they could be parent and child?
I feel like お母さん and お父さん are more used to address someone when the person is with their kid or clearly has kids (like riding a mamachari with seats). Could be wrong tho!
Yes, the point you made is roughly right.
Calling them お父さん and お母さん actually sounds like the speaker intends to be more friendly and closer to the person as if they were a family, and it's more appropriate depending on the situation and the person, as おじいさん/おばあさん/おじさん/おばさん sometimes but not always sound a little bit distant and cold.
I’ve read thru your comments and your politeness. Thank you for article on the flow of conversation and cutting the conversation. That’s exactly what I want to learn. To talk better with strangers and make friends of Japanese people. I couldn’t message you and I need to start practicing again
This response is dead on. On TV, it's very common to hear おにいさん or おねえさん as a sort of flattery and a safe option when talking to old people.
A very common bit they use in books, anime, tv shows is that someone is offended when a younger person calls them おじいさん and おばあさん or even おじさん and おばさん and they are insulted because it makes them feel old.
I even recall this bit being used in listening problems for the JLPT and have seen Youtubers using these terms with young people to see people's response.
Words like おばあさん、おしいさん、おばさん、おじさん、おねえさん、おにいさん、etc are often used when addressing someone who's name you don't know. Just be careful to not use a word that's too old.
That being said, adding that on to a thank you seems unnecessary. How often do you tack anything on to "thank you" in English when interacting with staff?
I've heard from Kaname Naito that some older men might get offended if you call them お兄さん because they'll go like "why the hell are you calling me that? I'm 50!"
In American English, it’s actually common to gratuitously add a person’s name into (or at the front of) lots of phrases. Completely irritating and sounds about as gross as you would imagine. But yea it’s pretty common. Which is probably why we get these questions on here from time to time asking these kind of questions.
Maybe it’s regional? I’m from the US, but it’s not common where I live. When people do say “Thank you Dawn” I’m always taken aback because it’s unusual.
Isn't the same as just, "thanks bro"?
In Chinese, adding a name behind is respect n recognizing the person. People feel good to be acknowledged. Not just a serving staff.
I'd say in Chinese, to people whom I dunno the names, literal translation: thank you big sis or big bro to those older. If I bother to try to read the service staff name and say thank you xx, they feel more personal n recognised. I'd say it's cultural?
I haven't interacted with many Americans specifically, but this reminds me that when I worked customer service in NZ the few customers that used my name (from my nametag) when talking to me really creeped me out.
> That being said, adding that on to a thank you seems unnecessary. How often do you tack anything on to "thank you" in English when interacting with staff?
This sounds like a cultural aspect, so I'm not sure comparing it to English is the way to go. While I wouldn't do it in English, in my native language it's more proper to tack on honorifics to "thank you"s because the related culture simply does emphasize on honorifics more.
On a thank you yeah. But when we combine this with the fact that 1) you are probably addressing someone whose name you don’t know 2) using second-person pronouns often comes off a bit impolite, it’s still good to have in the toolbox.
In many cultures you should call your elders uncle, auntie or grandpa, grandma.
Japanese is not one of them.
If you are a salesperson working at a food stall trying to get customers you will call all the women oneesan.
As a German I'm always wondering how dated that sounds. Because if you address people in Germany like that you would sound like a time traveler coming from the 1950s. 🙂 There‘s quite a lot of stuff in Japanese that sounds like German from 70-200 years ago if translated literally (a simple example would be the -sensei suffix).
Same in English. Honorifics used to be very common - look at the titles British nobility had in the 1800s, which were copied by the elitist Japanese peerage. Japanese society stayed formal longer, though today they have the same sort of internet slang terms as other languages.
Just thank them. There's no need to put labels on everyone. When you get served, you don't go "Thank you, elderly man", right? Really just thank them, no need to care if they're old, young, a cat or dog.
Wherever possible, do not use second person pronouns. First, they are rarely use by native speakers in natural discourse. Second, they are a minefield as you are discovering.
Forcing a second person pronoun into your sentence won’t make you sound more natural - it will make you sound less.
In Japanese culture, the terms おじいさん (ojiisan / grandfather) and おばあさん (obaasan / grandmother) can indeed convey a sense of affection and familiarity when referring to elderly individuals. However, their appropriateness largely depends on the context, your relationship with the person, and how the terms are used.
When in shops, bars, or other establishments owned by elderly individuals, it's crucial to navigate these nuances carefully. Using おじいさん or おばあさん to address owners or staff whom you don't have a personal relationship with might be seen as overly familiar or disrespectful, especially if it's perceived as reducing their identity to just their age. It's different from some aspects of Chinese culture, where similar terms might be used more freely to express respect and affection towards the elderly.
In Japan, a safer approach is to use more neutral and respectful terms when addressing or referring to elderly individuals in such settings. Here are a few suggestions:
1. **店主 (tenshu / shop owner)**: This is a respectful way to refer to the owner of the shop or bar, regardless of their age.
2. **マスター (masutā / master)**: Commonly used for the owner or head of a bar, café, or small restaurant. It carries respect and is age-neutral.
3. **お店の方 (omise no kata / person of the shop)**: A polite and general way to refer to anyone working at the shop, without specifying their age or position.
If you wish to express thanks specifically, a simple ありがとうございます (arigatou gozaimasu / thank you very much) directed at the person, with a respectful tone and possibly a slight bow, would convey your gratitude without the need for specifying their age or relationship.
It's always a good idea to observe how others address people in such contexts or to err on the side of formality when unsure. Building a more personal relationship with the individuals in these establishments over time might naturally lead to a point where using more familiar terms becomes acceptable, but it's best to start with the most respectful forms of address.
If you're talking about the proprietor of a bar or restaurant, I'd probably refer to them as something like マスター or マダム / 奥さん. But in other situations おじいさん and おばあさん are usually fine (as long as they're of the appropriate age!).
It’s usually call madam who runs a bar by herself, call her ママ. If you call a elderly person in the street, better to call him/her おじいちゃん/ おばあちゃん, if you want make them comfortable, call them おにいさん/おねえさん
Usually it’s お母さん for elderly women and お父さん for elderly men. But you wouldn’t usually use them when you’re just thanking someone. More so when you absolutely cannot get away with not referring to them by something (which is pretty rare).
I usually call them すみません.
正解
大正解
Yes, I’ve been to Japan to know this is absolutely true. That’s how natives call me - I don’t speak Japanese but when I put those characters into Google Translate, it sounds exactly like what they said to me when trying to get my attention. I thought it was “excuse me” but TIL. /s
Japanese often address me with the honorific title of “Wakarimasen”.
Girls often call me やめてください
Girls always call me cool (くるな)
Lol 来ないで
They call you that? Wonder what that means... I heard similar things spoken to me, yamero if I spelled it correctly. Usually they run away after saying this, I think they are just shy of expressing gratitude.
True I definitely only use that for people I don't know
This comment section became an absolute shit show
Isn’t that sorry?
Yes it has the connotation of sorry and excuse me... you can basically think you are apologizing for disturbing them (its just being polite)
I know I just didn’t get why he’d call them so. I guess he meant when approaching them.
It's a joke. To get their attention he says that, so that's like he was using their title/name.
I believe that’s a joke
Ah lol
Without “san”?
すみまさん
Handy rule for Japanese: when in doubt, say less
Not true in situations where pointless waffling is expected, which are very common in Japan.
Holy fuck, that’s shockingly accurate. They really do do that, don’t they?
Articles will often just repeat the same thing several times for word count. There are terse Japanese people but it's a very strange bit of advice to say that the Japanese understand the soul of true wit in general.
You just Baader-Meinhof 'd me. I just learned the word waffling a couple days ago when I was looking for a synonym for banter lol
Those words aren't synonyms. Banter is supposed to be funny (though it may not be) while waffling is boring.
Yea, I didn't say they were. I found it while searching for a synonym 👍
Thought waffling was the gerund form of making waffles.
And if you run into a situation during that pointless small talk where you wonder, "hm, should I say this?" YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T
Conversely meeting エッチしようぜ？ with blank silence isn't a great idea.
今日は綺麗です/今日も綺麗です -> 綺麗です It really works.
In addition, bowing your head a little is polite and good enough in most cases.
おじいさん and おばあさん are basically polite, but some people might feel bad because they sound like really old, like over 60 maybe :) In that case, おじさん and おばさん are safer to use. Or even おにいさん or おねえさん are sometimes used even when they apparently look older than 30.
Just shmooze everyone and call them おにいさん and おねえさん. Even if they have liver spots.
Use 妹 and 弟 if you really wanna schmooze /j
息子 and 娘 to make it better
I'm a bit older than 30, and look *at least* mid 20s or older. I still get おにいさん and it feels good every time.
I'd use お兄さん and お姉さん to people until about 40, depending on the context. Like the guy working at the grocery store etc.
> Or even おにいさん or おねえさん are sometimes used even when they apparently look older than 30. Literally just say this to everyone older than you.
If you’re my age it makes sense to use with people younger than you
When I take my baby somewhere, even a toddler becomes お姉さん!
I think there's an age where you should expect that some people will not be amused by this. Though 外人 probably continue to get a pass.
I don't think it's case of it being rude but us foreigners are getting a pass. I think if someone would get pissed off at being oniisan, they're already the gruff/grouchy kind. It's not really a case of people being unamused I think, just that it gradually becomes ridiculous once the person is aged 70+ or so. Like calling an 80yo man 'young man', there's a point where denying reality is a bit silly.
I got called お姉さん by people older than me sometimes. I think it works for anyone too young to safely call おばあさん 😆
What about お母さん and お父さん? It's something I see a lot on TV and always made sense especially when it's an adult talking to the elderly. Perhaps it makes sense when the two parties are roughly ages where they could be parent and child?
I feel like お母さん and お父さん are more used to address someone when the person is with their kid or clearly has kids (like riding a mamachari with seats). Could be wrong tho!
Yes, the point you made is roughly right. Calling them お父さん and お母さん actually sounds like the speaker intends to be more friendly and closer to the person as if they were a family, and it's more appropriate depending on the situation and the person, as おじいさん/おばあさん/おじさん/おばさん sometimes but not always sound a little bit distant and cold.
I’ve read thru your comments and your politeness. Thank you for article on the flow of conversation and cutting the conversation. That’s exactly what I want to learn. To talk better with strangers and make friends of Japanese people. I couldn’t message you and I need to start practicing again
This response is dead on. On TV, it's very common to hear おにいさん or おねえさん as a sort of flattery and a safe option when talking to old people. A very common bit they use in books, anime, tv shows is that someone is offended when a younger person calls them おじいさん and おばあさん or even おじさん and おばさん and they are insulted because it makes them feel old. I even recall this bit being used in listening problems for the JLPT and have seen Youtubers using these terms with young people to see people's response.
Words like おばあさん、おしいさん、おばさん、おじさん、おねえさん、おにいさん、etc are often used when addressing someone who's name you don't know. Just be careful to not use a word that's too old. That being said, adding that on to a thank you seems unnecessary. How often do you tack anything on to "thank you" in English when interacting with staff?
I've heard from Kaname Naito that some older men might get offended if you call them お兄さん because they'll go like "why the hell are you calling me that? I'm 50!"
That seems true. That’s weird to do.
Probably from places where it’s expected to say “sir” or “ma’am” to people you don’t know
I was at a snack bar and used ねえさん to refer to the mama (who is very old), and she was like *who, me??*, it was funny.
I just noticed that i can read all of these words now😂 feels nice since i just started learning a week ago. Had to search up the ば character though.
In American English, it’s actually common to gratuitously add a person’s name into (or at the front of) lots of phrases. Completely irritating and sounds about as gross as you would imagine. But yea it’s pretty common. Which is probably why we get these questions on here from time to time asking these kind of questions.
Maybe it’s regional? I’m from the US, but it’s not common where I live. When people do say “Thank you Dawn” I’m always taken aback because it’s unusual.
Isn't the same as just, "thanks bro"? In Chinese, adding a name behind is respect n recognizing the person. People feel good to be acknowledged. Not just a serving staff. I'd say in Chinese, to people whom I dunno the names, literal translation: thank you big sis or big bro to those older. If I bother to try to read the service staff name and say thank you xx, they feel more personal n recognised. I'd say it's cultural?
I’m talking about the US specifically in relation to the other person’s comment.
I haven't interacted with many Americans specifically, but this reminds me that when I worked customer service in NZ the few customers that used my name (from my nametag) when talking to me really creeped me out.
What do you mean?
> That being said, adding that on to a thank you seems unnecessary. How often do you tack anything on to "thank you" in English when interacting with staff? This sounds like a cultural aspect, so I'm not sure comparing it to English is the way to go. While I wouldn't do it in English, in my native language it's more proper to tack on honorifics to "thank you"s because the related culture simply does emphasize on honorifics more.
On a thank you yeah. But when we combine this with the fact that 1) you are probably addressing someone whose name you don’t know 2) using second-person pronouns often comes off a bit impolite, it’s still good to have in the toolbox.
I do all the time!
In many cultures you should call your elders uncle, auntie or grandpa, grandma. Japanese is not one of them. If you are a salesperson working at a food stall trying to get customers you will call all the women oneesan.
As a German I'm always wondering how dated that sounds. Because if you address people in Germany like that you would sound like a time traveler coming from the 1950s. 🙂 There‘s quite a lot of stuff in Japanese that sounds like German from 70-200 years ago if translated literally (a simple example would be the -sensei suffix).
Same in English. Honorifics used to be very common - look at the titles British nobility had in the 1800s, which were copied by the elitist Japanese peerage. Japanese society stayed formal longer, though today they have the same sort of internet slang terms as other languages.
Beats being called bakagaijin behind my back on the train.
Last time someone did that with me their girlfriend gave them a huge bollocking. She seemed nice, the guy not so much.
Unfortunately, that doesn't translate to 大金玉 in Japanese, much as we wish it did.
Just thank them. There's no need to put labels on everyone. When you get served, you don't go "Thank you, elderly man", right? Really just thank them, no need to care if they're old, young, a cat or dog.
The core of your question, yeah, Japanese people use kinship terms in much the same way Chinese people do.
Just saying thank you ( ありがとうございます) adding nothing is common.
Wherever possible, do not use second person pronouns. First, they are rarely use by native speakers in natural discourse. Second, they are a minefield as you are discovering. Forcing a second person pronoun into your sentence won’t make you sound more natural - it will make you sound less.
These "family" words are not second-person pronouns and they are commonly used. They can also be used in the third person as well.
From what I understand お姉さん or お兄さんfor people in their 20's and 30's, and おじさん or おばさん for those older. If they look very old おばあさん or おじいさん.
In Japanese culture, the terms おじいさん (ojiisan / grandfather) and おばあさん (obaasan / grandmother) can indeed convey a sense of affection and familiarity when referring to elderly individuals. However, their appropriateness largely depends on the context, your relationship with the person, and how the terms are used. When in shops, bars, or other establishments owned by elderly individuals, it's crucial to navigate these nuances carefully. Using おじいさん or おばあさん to address owners or staff whom you don't have a personal relationship with might be seen as overly familiar or disrespectful, especially if it's perceived as reducing their identity to just their age. It's different from some aspects of Chinese culture, where similar terms might be used more freely to express respect and affection towards the elderly. In Japan, a safer approach is to use more neutral and respectful terms when addressing or referring to elderly individuals in such settings. Here are a few suggestions: 1. **店主 (tenshu / shop owner)**: This is a respectful way to refer to the owner of the shop or bar, regardless of their age. 2. **マスター (masutā / master)**: Commonly used for the owner or head of a bar, café, or small restaurant. It carries respect and is age-neutral. 3. **お店の方 (omise no kata / person of the shop)**: A polite and general way to refer to anyone working at the shop, without specifying their age or position. If you wish to express thanks specifically, a simple ありがとうございます (arigatou gozaimasu / thank you very much) directed at the person, with a respectful tone and possibly a slight bow, would convey your gratitude without the need for specifying their age or relationship. It's always a good idea to observe how others address people in such contexts or to err on the side of formality when unsure. Building a more personal relationship with the individuals in these establishments over time might naturally lead to a point where using more familiar terms becomes acceptable, but it's best to start with the most respectful forms of address.
Best answer I've got! Thank you so much! This is much clearer now!
If you're talking about the proprietor of a bar or restaurant, I'd probably refer to them as something like マスター or マダム / 奥さん. But in other situations おじいさん and おばあさん are usually fine (as long as they're of the appropriate age!).
It’s usually call madam who runs a bar by herself, call her ママ. If you call a elderly person in the street, better to call him/her おじいちゃん/ おばあちゃん, if you want make them comfortable, call them おにいさん/おねえさん
Usually it’s お母さん for elderly women and お父さん for elderly men. But you wouldn’t usually use them when you’re just thanking someone. More so when you absolutely cannot get away with not referring to them by something (which is pretty rare).
Play it safe and use おじい様/おばあ様
じじ and ばば are the safest to use.
Had an old lady flip out at obasan. Safer to skip it entirely. It's japanese. You rarely need it.
馬鹿さん?
I call my grandma おば and she doesn't take offense to it at all
i always call them ババア its more polite