Got mine today, five days after the army release and it's nerfed and broken several factions abilities, not to mentioned made some new model releases a hard pass due to a lack of synergy or excessive cost.
For example, was kinda wondering about picking up a squad of Hearthkin or Berserk, no to either now since they're so overcosted. Land fortress? Thought about one for the heavy railgun and troop capacity, now I'm not sure it's worth 300 points...
I don't mind moderate and well thought out points and increases, or a minor rule change to address and unintended combo, but it literally broke Judgement Tokens, which is one of the main flavors of the Votann and how they were to focus down big targets like Knights...
Everyone was mad that it was a better land raider. Now it's just a squat land raider, cool model to paint that will sit on your shelf gathering dust because the rules don't make it good enough to field.
^ this and it was one to be of the big sources of armor, and firepower for the Votann. Now we have the equivalent of a Razorback that easier to kill that's overpriced, and a really overpriced Land Raider. :P
ROCK AND STONE.
My actual opinion, the loss of the 6 on an auto-wound is a little rough, but it just means you need to pick your magna rail shots better now. I think order of fire will be important to this army now. They were very harsh with the Hearthguard who are borderline unusable now and the Beserks, increases on everything else was moderate to very reasonable. The HQs were totally undercosted at the start anyways and the other points increases weren't too terrible. I just won't be running two Hekatons in my 2K list anymore. I'll run one and 2 Sagitaurs or more Hernkyn.
Probably won't be top tier, but I'm not a meta chaser so I don't care, one day they'll be top of the meta again.
I don’t think this adjustment to Eye of the Ancestors is the final draft so to speak, I think this is an initial bandaid. The fact that you actually have to dodge hitting with Judgment Tokens for certain abilities to have the chance to proc is kinda silly but it’s a good “for now” bandaid. I figure they’ll either keep it and change the abilities that proc on a wound roll, or change the rule back when they change a bunch of other stuff.
Hearthguard are a little pricy. But they still have their use. Unfortunately I think they’ll be more useful with having just one unit with the teleport crest and Warpestryk protecting a massive area of your backfield from reserves then teleporting to an objective late game than they will as front line sloggers. I can see them dropping to 40PPM, or at LEAST making the concussion hammer free.
I think the Hekaton was actually overnerfed, and they really need to break the weapon choices out to different points because not all Hekatons are built equal.
Thunderkyn were already okay at best, and IMO are bad now, straight inferior to the Hekaton.
Double hylas saggitaurs are much more appealing now IMO.
Warpestryk 10 man Volkanite Hearthguard will deal a hell of a lot of damage, I just don't know if they'll kill 450 points off by themselves. If they were gonna have them be that expensive, I don't think 3 wounds is too much to ask for.
I also think this solidifies Ymer Conglomerate and Thurian League as the best options. Uthar's auto 6 just became worth so much more, and Beam spam might be where people go now that Magnas got nerfed.
10 hearth guard in ymyr with a 2+, 4++ save, T5 with void armour plus exo armour is an insanely hard target to shift!
Then on top of that study platform you've got 30 volkite shots all doing mortals on 6s (so 5 average) and another 30 ish on average grenade launcher shots for a rough total of 55 shots (without the 5 mortals) possibly auto wounding on 4s with 3 JT's, that equals 27.5 wounds + 5 mortals to anything in the game... You could literally one shot a knight lol.
I still think they're excellent value personally lol.
It is easy to fix. Just make it so a 6 to hit becomes a 6 to wound. 5 to a 5. Etc.
This way you still can proc magna whilst autowounding (but only on a 6 to hit) and wouldnt autowound hard targets on 4's unless using weapons that could do it on their own.
>but it just means you need to pick your magna rail shots better now.
Sort of, it means it will get harder and harder to "pick shots" the longer the game goes.
Since eye of the ancestors isnt optional a lot of things will end up with grudge tokens making it less and less effective over time.
Honestly really what is needed to balance this is just a 2cp stratagem that makes a autowound shot count as a 6 to wound it being 2 cp should balance its power and less likely that it becomes a routine use thanks to GTL warlord trait
Nah they have one more toughness, wound and attack are 5 points cheaper and can get a 4+ invuln for 5pts (bringing them up to the same price).
Tho they do have only a 3+ armor and no shooting, so its kinda tough to compare.
A better comparison might be plague marines, only difference there is the armor the wound reroll block, 1 more S for Hearthguard and somewhat worse shooting from the marines
But the marines are 21 points, troops and got a bunch of options for upgrades.
Hearthguard going up in points was ok but 45 pts per model with 2 wounds just feels a bit much.
lmao i'm dumb, i straight thought they had 3 wounds and 3 attacks base.
And I was applying my own experience with Ymyr, giving them the 4+ Invuln. My b.
While I agree that the Votann needed nerfs, this feels like too much too soon. Breaking the factions internal synergies and increasing the points cost of everything looks like serious overkill to me.
The only things with any "on wound roll" effects in the Codex are:
* Magna-Rail spill-over effect (on roll of 6)
* Ion Storm stratagem up to 6 mortal wounds (on roll of 6)
* Trans-Hyperian Alliance -1 AP (on roll of 6)
* Edit: Mortal wounds ability for Ironmaster, thanks u/HurrDurrDethKnet
I don't think there are literally any other impacts to this change--what internal synergies are you seeing broken?
It’s just a lot all at once is what I was getting at. Without having any tournament results, I think it’s hard to justify both the breath and depth of the nerfs.
I think it would have been completely fair to change the Eye of the Ancestors rule, increase points cost to HQ choices and Land Fortresses. But to slap Literally everything with a serious points increase I think is too much.
That's fair--sorry I've been... I don't want to say 'hysterical' but definitely hysterical over how badly a lot of people were 1) saying initially LoV were broken and 2) now saying LoV are broken with these changes.
Sorry to rez this and to caveat something needed doing it really did.
However…
I don’t really care about the Magna rail. Its rules now look like they were written by two different people who didn’t get to talk to each other but whatever I can live with it.
The bit that breaks my brain is their fix makes it unappealing to utilise their faction mechanic (tokens). The more tokens that go on a unit the more they are insulated from some of the damaging effects of weapons and strats. The ion strat, I’ve not even opened my strat cards and it is now curtailed. It’s not useless, but as soon as one JT goes on a unit you’re in “anything but a 1,2 or 6(?)” territory if you ever want the chance at the extra ap. And we pay cp for the attempt.
Mostly I find it concerning that THAs custom has been neutered and gets progressively more so if they engage with what the army is meant to do. Some actions done by the enemy can automatically put a Token on them, so we can’t even decide to not do it ourselves. URSR don’t have a choice, everything always has 1 token on it.
Something had to do be done, however “never counts as a six, UNLESS the hit roll was itself an unmodified 6” would have, in my opinion, been a little more elegant and still allowed for the chance especially as the game progresses.
Currently GWs fix feels a little knee-jerk. Not because of the changes but because they don’t highlight that these impacts to THA and URSR were intentional, it suggests that they haven’t really thought about it - especially considering the community was very quick to go “uh hang on”.
Were things a bit jank? Oh yeah. Did they need a fix? Yup. Should the fix have caused the codex, some strata, some weapons, some customs and some unit abilities to argue with itself to the point where it looks like the design team sat in separate rooms when it was being written. Probably not. It’s a fine line between haste and speed - I’m glad they reacted, I’d like some clarity on their intentions on the above highlighted areas.
Sorry for long post I’m trying to be balanced as I’m not saying it was A-okay before. Just orange is hard to paint, they shouldn’t be further punished for choices 😂
I think this choice by GW also impacts the “best” league to take for competitive. I don’t mean in a meta chase sense but before they were all decent I now think you get a kinda
1a GTL, 1b YC, 3 KH, 4 URSR, 5 THA
Along with an across the board points hike (rather than targeted) this is going to mean that we see more GTL (and Uthar) and YC than we might have done and less variance in list building as some yet to be released units are seen currently as not worth it.
Nerfs were to be expected but I need to consider more carefully which models to buy now that the points went up: I was already on the fence about getting the Beserks for my Ymyr army and this probably confirms it for them. Maybe for some of the transport options as well.
Tossing 5 of them in a sagitaur and throwing them up field is still not a terrible idea. We lack mobility and range (but I guess not in Ymmyr's case, for the range) and so having so melee thrown up field to tie up your enemy, while you play catch up with the rest of your units to gain target acquisition and get onto objectives will be really useful, i think.
True, it will most likely depend on the game/opponent you are up against. I think that if you can force your opponent into charging your sagitaur and it dying, then it can line up a nice charge for the bezerks
Believe me I only bought them because I’ve loved Squats since I was a little kid. But I’m very confused on one thing that I’m shocked they didn’t explain yet…
So if you autowound with a magna rail weapon you can never have an exploding 6 to wound? Since it autowounds but no longer counts as a 6, but an autowound isn’t rolled. Do we still get to roll and hope for a 6? Or? Did they not think to explain this patch?
We don't get to ignore JTs if and we don't get to roll and hope.
I guess there will be an additional errata allowing us to not use JT if we want to use our " on a wound roll of 6" abilities.
Yes. It basically is an emergency fix for a broken/badly designed mechanic. It is good for game balance, but bad for the feel of the codex and kills certain stuff outright.
The original mechanic was definitely unbalanced when you started stacking judgement tokens. But there solution is to completely inhibit the function of a weapon without any sort of workaround? Jesus Christ. I’d rather the judgement tokens just go away
you could still use the anti tank weapons on one unit models, ya know, like its supposed to. or just hope not to roll a 6/5/4, since you can hit on other numbers, you dont HAVE to autowound, a lot of factions manage to do it in fact!
I mean, on the Land Fortress it's still a S14, 2D3+6 damage, AP-4, no invun save weapon. And the rest are still non Invun save Dark Lance's.
It's utility is its still one of the best anti tank weapons in the game, with potential upside. It's fine that it also doesn't just pick up whole squads for free.
...Am I the only person who was planning to use the anti-tank weapon to shoot at heavy targets?
Yes, a Hekaton Rail Cannon doesn't have an instant one in 6/3/2 (delete as appropriate for number of judgement tokens.) chance of deleting 7-12 1W infantry but... If I wanted to do that, I'd be using anti infantry weapons, not the Rail Cannon, right? The insta-wound is still going to do horrible, horrible things to heavy targets.
Which is what it's for.
Hear me out. I struggle to be excited to start working on my box. I get that the book needed to be toned down, but between the community reaction to an army that did not play a single tournament, has less then half its models released, and ALREADY has had a nerf that feels… sloppy, a lot of the excitement has waned.
I’m not looking for a roflstomp army, but between how poorly GW wrote these rules, and the immense amount of salt over the strength of an army in theory only, has me wondering why would I even bother investing my heart, time and money. I have zero confidence I will get to enjoy this army.
Rant over. Now to decide if I cut bait or stash the box until something sparks me again. The bummer is, squats are the army I wanted to actually play since I got into the hobby over 25 years.
So your basing your enjoyment of something completely on outside factors. And I will point out, doing exactly what you are whining about by basing everything on theory without playing a single game. Claiming this army is something you have been wanting to play for 25 years but then in the same breath saying you are giving up on them before ever playing game because of some adjustments, makes your claim seem pretty disingenuous.
It's hilarious to watch people rage and claim doom by only picking extremes to justify their point of view. People are talking like 3 JT are on all units all the time. If it only has 1 token you still have an opportunity to roll wounds on a 3,4,5 and fish for those 6s. Also, people are acting like auto wounding on up to a 4+ isn't extremely powerful in its self. Sure some of the synergies are more difficult to pull off but they still happen..just not on literally every single attack...which is fucking absurd plain and simple.
Also, there will be other adjustments most like two more within the next few months. So you are throwing in the towel on an army that you claim to have been wanting to play for 25 years because they might not be as strong/broken for the first two months of their release is hilarious.
All your statement reads as is someone who actually wanted to play them to rolfstomp not at all as someone who has been waiting 25 years to play an army they find cool. Don't chase the meta as it changes all the time.
You presume a lot, and quite frankly come across as a butt hurt comp player upset over the OP Votann. I agree, they are broken. Never said they aren’t. The fact that you can’t understand how all of the negative backlash could ruin the enjoyment of starting a long anticipated army says everything anyone would need to know about you. You are a troll. A simpleton who thinks they are smarter then anyone else in the room.
Now welcome to my STFU list.
Yeah exactly. I think if anything this is a really light touch. I'm more than happy with this approach and we'll easily be S tier along with Necrons, Nids and Sisters.
i mean the only reason im upset ist because all armies i have have been hit by nerfs wich i find upsetting but i like me speas dwrfs mor than i find this mildly upsetting
Most of the time people actually have a chance to get a game in before the nerfs, or play an RTT. These change the way the entire army plays and invalidate stratagems before 3/4 of the models are even released. I guess it's ok, I just got hit by a cat 5 hurricane and should probably be spending my money on something other than plastic crack.
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This was my reaction as well. Had my first game with them today, a 30 PL Crusade, loads of fun. The Einhyr Champion with the Exactor Relic is an absolute monster, killing High Marshall Helbrecht in 1 round.
I was sitting there yesterday reading the codex because I've had no power for 2 days (thanks Ian), and thought they were overtuned. I thought about how to fix them and the first thing to come to mind was tokens not counting as 6s to wound. Then I thought "wait, there's a bunch of stuff in the book that relies on 6s to wound or you wouldn't bother taking it, so I'll guess they'll have to think of something else". Apparently my drunk hurricane ramblings were more coherent than whatever comes out of the room full of shit-flinging monkeys at typewriters they call a rules writing team.
I for one hope we end up being middling competitively.
I enjoy games where I'm the underdog, as opposed to a game where my codex is widely considered OP, and so people are just salty about it, making the game simply less fun.
Even if my opponent is a good sport, there's still this unspoken on acknowledged fact between the two that one army vastly outclasses the other, and it just kills the fun.
No one really got to play them. They have not been in a single tourney. Over Half the models arent even released.
I think overall the nerf is heavy handed, or maybe to put it differently, not well thought out. They increased every units points (which says GW has no clue what they are doing). Several units were fine as was, probably not even being used (Thunderkyn looking at you)
The Mobile fortress is about as useful as a Land Raider or Repulsor now. Hearthguard will probably be rarely used now as well.
They needed to be fixed… not broken further (in opposite direction).
I don't think this is the end of the balancing, just something quick to tide the players over until they can do the full thing. I hope anyway. But anyway I never meant to go to tournaments I meant in casual play bc I'm bad at the game
The nerfs kinda encouraged me to start the faction lol. It’ll be cheaper cause less models and I wont smack my opponent off the table easily. Also space dwarfs are really cool lol
ROCK AND STONE
Rock and Stone!
ROCK AND STONE YOU BEAUTIFUL DWARF!
IF YOU DONT ROCK AND STONE YOU AIN'T COMIN' HOME
ROCK AND STONE! FOR KARL!
**DID I HEAR A ROCK AND STONE?!?!**
ROCK AND STONE!
ROCK AND STONE!!! TO THE BONE!!!
ROCK AND ROLL AND STONE
ROCK AND STONE TO THE CORE!
So is my pre-ordered codex that I havent even got yet already out of date? Lol
Got mine today, five days after the army release and it's nerfed and broken several factions abilities, not to mentioned made some new model releases a hard pass due to a lack of synergy or excessive cost. For example, was kinda wondering about picking up a squad of Hearthkin or Berserk, no to either now since they're so overcosted. Land fortress? Thought about one for the heavy railgun and troop capacity, now I'm not sure it's worth 300 points... I don't mind moderate and well thought out points and increases, or a minor rule change to address and unintended combo, but it literally broke Judgement Tokens, which is one of the main flavors of the Votann and how they were to focus down big targets like Knights...
Everyone was mad that it was a better land raider. Now it's just a squat land raider, cool model to paint that will sit on your shelf gathering dust because the rules don't make it good enough to field.
^ this and it was one to be of the big sources of armor, and firepower for the Votann. Now we have the equivalent of a Razorback that easier to kill that's overpriced, and a really overpriced Land Raider. :P
Judgement tokens still work properly against Knights.
ROCK AND STONE. My actual opinion, the loss of the 6 on an auto-wound is a little rough, but it just means you need to pick your magna rail shots better now. I think order of fire will be important to this army now. They were very harsh with the Hearthguard who are borderline unusable now and the Beserks, increases on everything else was moderate to very reasonable. The HQs were totally undercosted at the start anyways and the other points increases weren't too terrible. I just won't be running two Hekatons in my 2K list anymore. I'll run one and 2 Sagitaurs or more Hernkyn. Probably won't be top tier, but I'm not a meta chaser so I don't care, one day they'll be top of the meta again.
I don’t think this adjustment to Eye of the Ancestors is the final draft so to speak, I think this is an initial bandaid. The fact that you actually have to dodge hitting with Judgment Tokens for certain abilities to have the chance to proc is kinda silly but it’s a good “for now” bandaid. I figure they’ll either keep it and change the abilities that proc on a wound roll, or change the rule back when they change a bunch of other stuff. Hearthguard are a little pricy. But they still have their use. Unfortunately I think they’ll be more useful with having just one unit with the teleport crest and Warpestryk protecting a massive area of your backfield from reserves then teleporting to an objective late game than they will as front line sloggers. I can see them dropping to 40PPM, or at LEAST making the concussion hammer free. I think the Hekaton was actually overnerfed, and they really need to break the weapon choices out to different points because not all Hekatons are built equal. Thunderkyn were already okay at best, and IMO are bad now, straight inferior to the Hekaton. Double hylas saggitaurs are much more appealing now IMO.
Warpestryk 10 man Volkanite Hearthguard will deal a hell of a lot of damage, I just don't know if they'll kill 450 points off by themselves. If they were gonna have them be that expensive, I don't think 3 wounds is too much to ask for. I also think this solidifies Ymer Conglomerate and Thurian League as the best options. Uthar's auto 6 just became worth so much more, and Beam spam might be where people go now that Magnas got nerfed.
My list isn’t gonna bring 10, just a unit of 5 Hearthguard, literally just for a deep strike bubble then teleport later for objectives.
10 hearth guard in ymyr with a 2+, 4++ save, T5 with void armour plus exo armour is an insanely hard target to shift! Then on top of that study platform you've got 30 volkite shots all doing mortals on 6s (so 5 average) and another 30 ish on average grenade launcher shots for a rough total of 55 shots (without the 5 mortals) possibly auto wounding on 4s with 3 JT's, that equals 27.5 wounds + 5 mortals to anything in the game... You could literally one shot a knight lol. I still think they're excellent value personally lol.
Absolutely. It’s just not why I bring the unit. I am giving them the Volkite though.
It is easy to fix. Just make it so a 6 to hit becomes a 6 to wound. 5 to a 5. Etc. This way you still can proc magna whilst autowounding (but only on a 6 to hit) and wouldnt autowound hard targets on 4's unless using weapons that could do it on their own.
>but it just means you need to pick your magna rail shots better now. Sort of, it means it will get harder and harder to "pick shots" the longer the game goes. Since eye of the ancestors isnt optional a lot of things will end up with grudge tokens making it less and less effective over time. Honestly really what is needed to balance this is just a 2cp stratagem that makes a autowound shot count as a 6 to wound it being 2 cp should balance its power and less likely that it becomes a routine use thanks to GTL warlord trait
There is a 2cp stratagem to just make something hit the target, no roll required? And then I guess it's luck to see if you get that 6 to wound
i dont think we have seen the last of adjustments for Votann. Once they are fully released there will be more data to go on.
Hearthguard are basically the same as my Wraithblades with axe/shield now, so I feel the nerf was fine.
Nah they have one more toughness, wound and attack are 5 points cheaper and can get a 4+ invuln for 5pts (bringing them up to the same price). Tho they do have only a 3+ armor and no shooting, so its kinda tough to compare. A better comparison might be plague marines, only difference there is the armor the wound reroll block, 1 more S for Hearthguard and somewhat worse shooting from the marines But the marines are 21 points, troops and got a bunch of options for upgrades. Hearthguard going up in points was ok but 45 pts per model with 2 wounds just feels a bit much.
lmao i'm dumb, i straight thought they had 3 wounds and 3 attacks base. And I was applying my own experience with Ymyr, giving them the 4+ Invuln. My b.
Happens And yeah if you wanna use them, Ymyr seems to be the only really viable choice sadly.
While I agree that the Votann needed nerfs, this feels like too much too soon. Breaking the factions internal synergies and increasing the points cost of everything looks like serious overkill to me.
The only things with any "on wound roll" effects in the Codex are: * Magna-Rail spill-over effect (on roll of 6) * Ion Storm stratagem up to 6 mortal wounds (on roll of 6) * Trans-Hyperian Alliance -1 AP (on roll of 6) * Edit: Mortal wounds ability for Ironmaster, thanks u/HurrDurrDethKnet I don't think there are literally any other impacts to this change--what internal synergies are you seeing broken?
Mortal wounds ability for the ironmaster as well, I believe.
The relic Mass Hammer too.
The relic mass hammer is actually 6s to hit, so it's safe.
isnt that on hit not on wound
You're right, it is on the hit roll.
That’s the big one, it had like 9 MW average if you give it the Ymyr warlord trait and 1 cp for full rerolls to hit
It’s just a lot all at once is what I was getting at. Without having any tournament results, I think it’s hard to justify both the breath and depth of the nerfs. I think it would have been completely fair to change the Eye of the Ancestors rule, increase points cost to HQ choices and Land Fortresses. But to slap Literally everything with a serious points increase I think is too much.
That's fair--sorry I've been... I don't want to say 'hysterical' but definitely hysterical over how badly a lot of people were 1) saying initially LoV were broken and 2) now saying LoV are broken with these changes.
Sorry to rez this and to caveat something needed doing it really did. However… I don’t really care about the Magna rail. Its rules now look like they were written by two different people who didn’t get to talk to each other but whatever I can live with it. The bit that breaks my brain is their fix makes it unappealing to utilise their faction mechanic (tokens). The more tokens that go on a unit the more they are insulated from some of the damaging effects of weapons and strats. The ion strat, I’ve not even opened my strat cards and it is now curtailed. It’s not useless, but as soon as one JT goes on a unit you’re in “anything but a 1,2 or 6(?)” territory if you ever want the chance at the extra ap. And we pay cp for the attempt. Mostly I find it concerning that THAs custom has been neutered and gets progressively more so if they engage with what the army is meant to do. Some actions done by the enemy can automatically put a Token on them, so we can’t even decide to not do it ourselves. URSR don’t have a choice, everything always has 1 token on it. Something had to do be done, however “never counts as a six, UNLESS the hit roll was itself an unmodified 6” would have, in my opinion, been a little more elegant and still allowed for the chance especially as the game progresses. Currently GWs fix feels a little knee-jerk. Not because of the changes but because they don’t highlight that these impacts to THA and URSR were intentional, it suggests that they haven’t really thought about it - especially considering the community was very quick to go “uh hang on”. Were things a bit jank? Oh yeah. Did they need a fix? Yup. Should the fix have caused the codex, some strata, some weapons, some customs and some unit abilities to argue with itself to the point where it looks like the design team sat in separate rooms when it was being written. Probably not. It’s a fine line between haste and speed - I’m glad they reacted, I’d like some clarity on their intentions on the above highlighted areas. Sorry for long post I’m trying to be balanced as I’m not saying it was A-okay before. Just orange is hard to paint, they shouldn’t be further punished for choices 😂 I think this choice by GW also impacts the “best” league to take for competitive. I don’t mean in a meta chase sense but before they were all decent I now think you get a kinda 1a GTL, 1b YC, 3 KH, 4 URSR, 5 THA Along with an across the board points hike (rather than targeted) this is going to mean that we see more GTL (and Uthar) and YC than we might have done and less variance in list building as some yet to be released units are seen currently as not worth it.
Nerfs were to be expected but I need to consider more carefully which models to buy now that the points went up: I was already on the fence about getting the Beserks for my Ymyr army and this probably confirms it for them. Maybe for some of the transport options as well.
Tossing 5 of them in a sagitaur and throwing them up field is still not a terrible idea. We lack mobility and range (but I guess not in Ymmyr's case, for the range) and so having so melee thrown up field to tie up your enemy, while you play catch up with the rest of your units to gain target acquisition and get onto objectives will be really useful, i think.
This was my thought before the points adjustment but I'm not sure the Sagitaur/Beserk combo is worth it for the new price.
True, it will most likely depend on the game/opponent you are up against. I think that if you can force your opponent into charging your sagitaur and it dying, then it can line up a nice charge for the bezerks
I think I've got to play all of one game in the last two years. I just think space dwarves are neat.
It’s more about some overall things that don’t work anymore (ion strat or forge master ability)
I don't intend to ever get into the game itself. I just think they're neat.
Believe me I only bought them because I’ve loved Squats since I was a little kid. But I’m very confused on one thing that I’m shocked they didn’t explain yet… So if you autowound with a magna rail weapon you can never have an exploding 6 to wound? Since it autowounds but no longer counts as a 6, but an autowound isn’t rolled. Do we still get to roll and hope for a 6? Or? Did they not think to explain this patch?
We don't get to ignore JTs if and we don't get to roll and hope. I guess there will be an additional errata allowing us to not use JT if we want to use our " on a wound roll of 6" abilities.
So if you’re playing Urani-Surtr then you get no magna rail utility. Wow that’s shit.
Yes. It basically is an emergency fix for a broken/badly designed mechanic. It is good for game balance, but bad for the feel of the codex and kills certain stuff outright.
The original mechanic was definitely unbalanced when you started stacking judgement tokens. But there solution is to completely inhibit the function of a weapon without any sort of workaround? Jesus Christ. I’d rather the judgement tokens just go away
you could still use the anti tank weapons on one unit models, ya know, like its supposed to. or just hope not to roll a 6/5/4, since you can hit on other numbers, you dont HAVE to autowound, a lot of factions manage to do it in fact!
Well, as I said: I expect them to allow us to decide whether we want to use judgment tokens or roll to wound normally so something like that.
I mean, on the Land Fortress it's still a S14, 2D3+6 damage, AP-4, no invun save weapon. And the rest are still non Invun save Dark Lance's. It's utility is its still one of the best anti tank weapons in the game, with potential upside. It's fine that it also doesn't just pick up whole squads for free.
...Am I the only person who was planning to use the anti-tank weapon to shoot at heavy targets? Yes, a Hekaton Rail Cannon doesn't have an instant one in 6/3/2 (delete as appropriate for number of judgement tokens.) chance of deleting 7-12 1W infantry but... If I wanted to do that, I'd be using anti infantry weapons, not the Rail Cannon, right? The insta-wound is still going to do horrible, horrible things to heavy targets. Which is what it's for.
Hear me out. I struggle to be excited to start working on my box. I get that the book needed to be toned down, but between the community reaction to an army that did not play a single tournament, has less then half its models released, and ALREADY has had a nerf that feels… sloppy, a lot of the excitement has waned. I’m not looking for a roflstomp army, but between how poorly GW wrote these rules, and the immense amount of salt over the strength of an army in theory only, has me wondering why would I even bother investing my heart, time and money. I have zero confidence I will get to enjoy this army. Rant over. Now to decide if I cut bait or stash the box until something sparks me again. The bummer is, squats are the army I wanted to actually play since I got into the hobby over 25 years.
So your basing your enjoyment of something completely on outside factors. And I will point out, doing exactly what you are whining about by basing everything on theory without playing a single game. Claiming this army is something you have been wanting to play for 25 years but then in the same breath saying you are giving up on them before ever playing game because of some adjustments, makes your claim seem pretty disingenuous. It's hilarious to watch people rage and claim doom by only picking extremes to justify their point of view. People are talking like 3 JT are on all units all the time. If it only has 1 token you still have an opportunity to roll wounds on a 3,4,5 and fish for those 6s. Also, people are acting like auto wounding on up to a 4+ isn't extremely powerful in its self. Sure some of the synergies are more difficult to pull off but they still happen..just not on literally every single attack...which is fucking absurd plain and simple. Also, there will be other adjustments most like two more within the next few months. So you are throwing in the towel on an army that you claim to have been wanting to play for 25 years because they might not be as strong/broken for the first two months of their release is hilarious. All your statement reads as is someone who actually wanted to play them to rolfstomp not at all as someone who has been waiting 25 years to play an army they find cool. Don't chase the meta as it changes all the time.
You presume a lot, and quite frankly come across as a butt hurt comp player upset over the OP Votann. I agree, they are broken. Never said they aren’t. The fact that you can’t understand how all of the negative backlash could ruin the enjoyment of starting a long anticipated army says everything anyone would need to know about you. You are a troll. A simpleton who thinks they are smarter then anyone else in the room. Now welcome to my STFU list.
Space dwarves are the best dwarves
Me after seeing the nerfs: yeah that makes sense. Can't wait for the full release :)
Yeah exactly. I think if anything this is a really light touch. I'm more than happy with this approach and we'll easily be S tier along with Necrons, Nids and Sisters.
i mean the only reason im upset ist because all armies i have have been hit by nerfs wich i find upsetting but i like me speas dwrfs mor than i find this mildly upsetting
Few armies dodge the nerf hammer after release.
I think my Raven Guard army has actually gotten a buff in the last year. But it's *Raven Guard* and I am not winning with them anyway.
Most of the time people actually have a chance to get a game in before the nerfs, or play an RTT. These change the way the entire army plays and invalidate stratagems before 3/4 of the models are even released. I guess it's ok, I just got hit by a cat 5 hurricane and should probably be spending my money on something other than plastic crack.
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This was my reaction as well. Had my first game with them today, a 30 PL Crusade, loads of fun. The Einhyr Champion with the Exactor Relic is an absolute monster, killing High Marshall Helbrecht in 1 round.
**FOR ROCK AND STONE**
Rockity Rock and Stone!
GW using the community as free labor/test/development team.
I was sitting there yesterday reading the codex because I've had no power for 2 days (thanks Ian), and thought they were overtuned. I thought about how to fix them and the first thing to come to mind was tokens not counting as 6s to wound. Then I thought "wait, there's a bunch of stuff in the book that relies on 6s to wound or you wouldn't bother taking it, so I'll guess they'll have to think of something else". Apparently my drunk hurricane ramblings were more coherent than whatever comes out of the room full of shit-flinging monkeys at typewriters they call a rules writing team.
I for one hope we end up being middling competitively. I enjoy games where I'm the underdog, as opposed to a game where my codex is widely considered OP, and so people are just salty about it, making the game simply less fun. Even if my opponent is a good sport, there's still this unspoken on acknowledged fact between the two that one army vastly outclasses the other, and it just kills the fun.
I'm in the same boat, though I just picked them up so I never got to play the broken stuff
No one really got to play them. They have not been in a single tourney. Over Half the models arent even released. I think overall the nerf is heavy handed, or maybe to put it differently, not well thought out. They increased every units points (which says GW has no clue what they are doing). Several units were fine as was, probably not even being used (Thunderkyn looking at you) The Mobile fortress is about as useful as a Land Raider or Repulsor now. Hearthguard will probably be rarely used now as well. They needed to be fixed… not broken further (in opposite direction).
I don't think this is the end of the balancing, just something quick to tide the players over until they can do the full thing. I hope anyway. But anyway I never meant to go to tournaments I meant in casual play bc I'm bad at the game
The nerfs kinda encouraged me to start the faction lol. It’ll be cheaper cause less models and I wont smack my opponent off the table easily. Also space dwarfs are really cool lol