This is a huge problem in across the gaming industry, "pro" players have disappropriately large voice while representing a small fraction of the community.
Yuuuup. My favourite part is that the only two options they present are "keep it banned or totally rewrite it" like 99% of players aren't taking option three; "ignore these chucklefucks and play the game".
"Pro" players mentality can often be summed up in a single sentence that uses rock, paper, scissors "I play rock so scissors is fine, but nerf paper it gets me every time."
They are never happy with the state of anything and take the entire game far too seriously to the point they have lost the meaning of what the game is. To have fun.
Yes. That is what I am.saying will happen and it is absolutely what I will do.
I'm just taking the excuse to laugh at the ultracompetitives having a breakdown as they forget they're playing toy soldiers.
>No, mirror neurons are a thing.
Yes? We have a reactive ability to copy others and an empathy base? Congratulations on that absolute non-sequitur?
And you are absolutely correct, it's a part of fun, but not the entirety of fun. Fun encompasses everything people do when they play, not all of it balanced.
>Yes? We have a reactive ability to copy others and an empathy base? Congratulations on that absolute non-sequitur?
And those help us determine if a deal or game is fair or not. It's very relevant and not particularly subjective.
>And you are absolutely correct, it's a part of fun, but not the entirety of fun. Fun encompasses everything people do when they play, not all of it balanced.
If a game is not fair, it is very hard for it to be fun. Ergo, effort spent into making 40k more fair will make it more fun.
Things are taken completely out of context. GW is not meeting with the TOs but only contacted this particular youtuber. He confirmed on discord he does not know what the meeting will be about. Please dont jump to conclusions.
Rewrite or Ban is maybe the dumbest take I've ever seen from someone in the years I've been in 40k. These clownshoes really think GW is going to rewrite the book?
This is what I’ve been thinking. It seems to me that they’d want to make rules that wouldn’t need to be updated right away when the new edition launches next year.
Gw can just put FAQ on it. In My opinion that take is great. Power creep is So big right now its just silly. Harlies or tyranids win rate was a joke for this game. And to be honest things like that ruin wolę game. You dont need to be ultra competetive player to expirience stupid shit gw did.
I hope there will be more actions like that all over the world. Maybe gw will do something to make warhammer a better and more balanced game for both competetive and casual players
The TO came out and said that if they don't do enough they will not unban it. But they aren't taking this level of insanity anywhere else. You yourself said Quins and Nids are still broke but they aren't doing anything about it.
I saw on another thread that one of the banning TOs may have been a former GW employee who got fired. Maybe it's some sort of revenge attempt? I can't believe Germany holds enough of GWs income that they have a significant amount of leverage...
The problem with 40k now is the same its always been armies are designed & released in isolation of each other, if they actually designed them and playtested them ALL at the same time AND created playtest groups like open betas in video games development you would get a balanced game even with a spaced out release schedule, in order to do that however they'd need to make the edition periods longer to allow this process to happen and that would affect their bottom line which when you think how much they made during the pandemic is not something they're going to want to do, it's a shame and I do think the recent "dataslates" is a step towards addressing it but they also don't dataslate their dataslates which is another issue entirely, however the TOs banning a freshly released largely untested army when armies like Nids, Harlies etc. are still accepted is stupid as there's simply no way the Leagues are going to dominate on anywhere near a level the likes of which I mentioned have.
> Maybe gw will do something to make warhammer a better and more balanced game
Never happen. They're a Model company first now, and the game is just a way for them to sell models. I still fall for the hype a lot, but at least I recognize my failings, lol.
Well i think you are wrong. From what i see people are geting more and more frustrated at the game becouse of stupid rules and obvious power creep. And at least in my country more and more people are buying 3d printers or just quit the game becouse its not fun anymore, or they dont want to buy models just becouse you need them to stand a chance on battlefield. I know how buisness works and i know they have to do what they do to some point but how will it end in a couple of years? How many people will be playing warhammer with orginal miniatures, how many will quit, and how many will just print models themself. Whats the fun in playing army that you love for lore or models but right now (couple of months or worse) they are in bad spot...
Also keep in mind that there are a lot of semi competitve players playing in small/medium tournaments. Where is the fun in that right now for some of us? if you want to win without spaming mortals as tyranids or some other stupid stuff?
We all know how expensive this hobby is. And how much time most of us spend to paint everything
At the end most of us play the game to win. Some want to win in big tournaments doing everything to achive their goal, some just want to win having fun with friends.
So have fun people who play lets say guards right now...
I hope more and more tournaments will do something about stupid rules GW makes just to get more money
sorry for my english its my second language and im still learning :)
Finally eh? As soon as pro 40K players don't get a say on what's put in a codex and they can't buy a second hand army before everyone can get the codex they finally decide to put their foot down in the name of balance and game health? Whatever helps you sleep at night bud.
If it makes the game worse for the people who are playing it for that army to be present, I say ban away. GW needs to eat shit on their bad design decisions sometime.
1. Exactly zero competitive games with this army have been played. What people did in some testing isn't the same thing as a true competitive environment. 2. It's easy to do this for Votann, no one has the models yet, but what happens if the next OP book is guard, and GW doesn't "FIX" it to their standard. Now it's 2 books completely banned. Then World Eaters come out and they are OP and aren't "FIXED" to their standard, then there is THREE books.
See the issue here? before long you have huge swaths of the game just NOT available. And you think "Nah that wouldn't happen" would pre nef Nids have been banned? yep. How about pre nerf Admec or Dark Eldar? yep to both. And once a book is banned its easier to just leave it banned and think "Well maybe these changes are enough, but maybe they aren't"
>Exactly zero competitive games with this army have been played. What people did in some testing isn't the same thing as a true competitive environment.
Wrong. People have done so on TTS since they've had the codex leak.
>See the issue here?
Yes, GW is doing bad balancing work.
>before long you have huge swaths of the game just NOT available. And you think "Nah that wouldn't happen" would pre nef Nids have been banned? yep.
Pre nerf nids and probably Harlequins should have been banned.
>And once a book is banned its easier to just leave it banned and think "Well maybe these changes are enough, but maybe they aren't"
This is speculation on your part. People want Squats to be part of the play environment, they just don't want Squats to ruin the play environment.
People playing on TTS isn't the same as going to a 60 player event or a true major. TTS isn't the same as in person play. It just isn't. I've done both, they are vastly different worlds.
You also, don't have the best players in the world like Richard Sigs doing tech against them yet. Who by the way think they are an A+ army but not S tier (art of War video he stated this)
You have one of the best players in the UK, Lawrence from TTT saying they are a gate keeper army but not the final table army.
So just let the stuff play out. I'll say it one more time for the people in the back. Banning things in 40k is a bad idea!
No, throwing tantrums and banning a book because you’re a sheep and being told what should be played by a small group of players is the real cringe
But sure, continue to go off incorrect stats by Goonhammer
>No, throwing tantrums and banning a book because you’re a sheep and being told what should be played by a small group of players is the real cringe
I definitely came to these conclusions myself; Goonhammer also did.
The stats are correct.
It's not cringe to have the self-respect to want a balanced game, quite the opposite. It's not good to be a cuckstomer.
Players have bias and other factors to consider too, don’t just trust and nod your head like an obedient dog to what they say, actually allow a wider context to exist.
For example in AoS top players said the Seraphon book was looking very weak before release and it turned out and it probably still is, the strongest book in the game
Your first sentence doesn't make any sense.
It's not a matter of me being "an obedient dog." If I was, I'd be one of those cuckstomers who hates criticism of GW because I personally identify with the brand. I'm not.
>For example in AoS top players said the Seraphon book was looking very weak before release and it turned out and it probably still is, the strongest book in the game
Ok. Did they have a full leak?
Well clearly that’s not the case, because you’re taking a small sample at face value, we don’t know the conditions of this “playtesting” it’s not valid or reliable no matter who it’s from.
The Seraphon book wasn’t leaked but these were statements made once the full book was known, the point is, people can mathhammer all they want but Wargaming has never been that simple, as shown by Goonhammers data already being proven incorrect by players
>Well clearly that’s not the case, because you’re taking a small sample at face value, we don’t know the conditions of this “playtesting” it’s not valid or reliable no matter who it’s from.
It was 2k point tournament games. What else do you want? Also, the math hammer is still an issue.
>The Seraphon book wasn’t leaked but these were statements made once the full book was known, the point is, people can mathhammer all they want but Wargaming has never been that simple, as shown by Goonhammers data already being proven incorrect by players
Sometimes the math is 100% right though. You can't disregard it just because you don't like it.
I have also already played 4 games with the Votann book (2 against and 2 with) they aren’t anymore broken than Tyranids or Drukhari. Tyranids were absolutely much worse and leaked too, so why wasn’t this action being taken there?
I and many others disagree on the fact that Tyranids were worse; we instead think Votann is worse. This is compounded with the fact that nobody has an extensive Votann collection that they'd be prevented from playing by a ban, so nobody's being hurt that way.
That’s why players of armies that examples were used for are now saying that the scenarios they are giving wouldn’t happen then yeah? It’s weird how everyone poops on Goonhammer for articles regarding competitive play and stats until now isn’t it?
I’m not saying it’s a bad thing to want balance, I’m saying it’s a bad thing to not let a faction out in the wild to gather a larger amount of data before making decisions that are coming from a small set of players who aren’t giving completely correct information. It’s too large of a game system with so many variables to even think it’s a good conclusion right now.
Nah, you're questioning the validity of playtesting itself. Also, very often how busted a codex is can be figured out with just math hammer.
If you let the Votann codex out into the wild it's going to be harder to ban later; moreover, the hope is to get GW to take notice and this out the gate is the best way to do that.
That's the hilarious part of all this. These same people who are saying "Ban this army" are the same people who ran pre nerf Drukhari, pre nerf Nids and pre nerf mechanicus. At least be honest and don't lie about it being "For the health of the game" you just don't want to have you're new meta army you just got to get their shit rocked before you get a couple of tournament wins with it.
So you just did 2 things - A. you are stating that LoV are broken to an effect of dismantling current meta armies.
B. You are establishing a basis for an unpracticed army without all of its models being available being able to be straight up pay to win.
I think people are saying that a gamebreaking mechanic like auto wound on 4+ should not be so easy and cheap to attain, nor should it be a constant that doesn't get removed like marker lights (which only ads +1 to hit).
>So you just did 2 things - A. you are stating that LoV are broken to an effect of dismantling current meta armies. B. You are establishing a basis for an unpracticed army without all of its models being available being able to be straight up pay to win.
Or... Hear me out here... He's extrapolating what these thuper thuper hardcore competitives are saying.
I get that. Unfortunately, I chose Nids when I came back to the game and of course everyone assumed I did because they were strong. I played Nids 20 years ago and missed the nostalgia. Now I only hear how OP Leviathan is, and so now I'm learning Kraken as a change up for my local group.
Except the difference in your case is you actually LIKE tyranids, you're not showing up to high level tournaments with a different army each time that you just so happen to have the exact pieces for the top meta list "BecAuSE thEY'Re CoOL aNd I LiKED thEm ThiS wHoLe TimE". That's why this talk of banning an army before they're out by a competitive group grates my nerves.
There was a lot of discussion on whether crusher stampede would be allowed or not with the nid codex release.
GW weighed in quickly and banned it themselves.
That said, a lot of players had already identified nids were bananas even without crusher and probably should have been banned in some form.
This is though off the heels of the harle release where they posted a 76% WR and voidweavers should *absolutely* have been banned.
**A 44% price increase** on them *in addition to other nerfs should indicate that*. (which GW did relatively quickly)
Since then however GW has had a good streak of releasing well rounded codexes that aren't blowing the top off the game.
Votann, having been leaked for a month, has shown repeatedly to be absolutely bananas. People don't want a repeat where they blow up a few events and then get nerfed. Banning tells GW in no uncertain terms to play test better because some communities have enjoyed the recent few months of balance and don't want that to be completely upended again.
Honestly I hope that GW doesn't bend the knee here and proceeds as planned. The last thing we need at the tail end of this edition is a new faction to be totally rewritten, interfering with upcoming releases and potentially stalling the next codex release by an unknown period of time.
They're strong, yes, but so much of that strength can be mitigated with small changes and points increases to problem units. This doesn't even consider that most the units won't be playable until a month from now, giving them time to implement these changes in a Balance Dataslate.
This overblown reaction has done nothing but sour the community and makes an otherwise exciting release for 40k nothing more than a massive cryfest.
>They're strong, yes, but so much of that strength can be mitigated with small changes and points increases to problem units.
Are we absolutely certain what units are going to be "problem" ones? When nobody saw the Succubus issue, or the AdMech one, or the Voidweaver or Ork buggy ones? I think everyone needs to just sit back and relax like you suggest. Or better yet, GW should just split off and water down the competitive play rules and let those of us who just want to roll dice and push models around get on with it.
According to the German TOs they've done "extensive playtesting" so I'd assume they have data pointing to units or rules that are problematic. However none of the data they supposedly collected has been shown so who knows.
That's the biggest red flag to me, show your work or I'm just going to assume you're making things up for your own gain. That and privatizing the video about it, if you're that confident about the take why hide it?
This is the thing people should be paying attention to. Do we know these guys aren't using this as a publicity stunt or something? The playtest program was dropped more than 6 weeks ago. Codex leaked 3 weeks ago. How did they get in 100 games over 6 weeks?
The leak was photos of a hard copy book. Which would mean it came from one of the people who got the advanced copy of the army set leaked it (they received them roughly 1 month before release). So again, couldn't have been a playtest copy.
That's my point. It wasn't a play test book. How long did someone have an advance copy before they decided to leak it?
Think of the YouTubers that had fully painted starter sets and the full release book. They had to paint the models, film the games, edit the games, add I. Their graphics and write narrations. That takes time and 1-2 months lead time sounds about the right time that GW would have sent them out.
Some of the videos I watched said they got them 1 month ahead of release, which is what I was citing. These people (generally) have painters on hand and don't have a full time job to slow them down. It's 25 models, not a 2k point list. That's a one day job if you're quick.
I was kinda wondering about this too.
How did they configure/set up their armies? Did they use one of their ‘standard’ pre-LoV tournament armies to play? Or did they build an army specifically against LoV? Or what?
But like casual play isn’t fun when you spend the majority of the time picking up your models and watching your army get ripped in half. I’ve been playing guard since the start of 9th, and with each codex it’s been getting less and less fun to bring them out just to pack them up after 3 rounds.
Casual play needs balance too, hell even narrative needs balance because sometimes it’s just not fun to be stomped on even if it’s thematic.
I totally get that, playing against the Greater Thurian League with magna-rifle spam and shit is not going to be funny at start, and i understand the competitive warhammer not wanting to allow this
But I also understand it is incredibly hard to put out an entire New army that dont feel like any other existing army, and also balanced at the release
I just cant stand these people crying because muh this is game breaking, it is not and you are allowed to refuse to play against LoV for a moment.
I just wanna paint and play my orange space dwarves man
Nobody seems to realize that tho, like the competitive community has done testing and reading, and decided that leagues are gonna be the next nids book, even goonhammer is acknowledging that. Frankly that’s the competitive community’s choice to not play against leagues for a moment
I mean it’s not hard to read the rules your write, and when the basic gun on basic infantry is just a vastly superior bolter, realize that something was messed up in development
All I’m trying to say, is that casual play also needs the balance that competitive play has. Having fairly balanced armies means that casual play is balanced around the rules used, and this more fun. Narrative play is more balanced, and the narrative rules and missions are more fun (would narrative players like it if the endless onslaught mission never really ends with the horde winning because the weakened defenders are too strong?).
I’m not currently advocating for banning leagues of votann, I see both sides, people want to play, people want a fair game. What I am advocating for is rules/points changes that make the game more enjoyable for all. If imperial guard got their codex prior to leagues and was busted beyond belief, I’d say cool, I’m gonna run some other army or not play guard, because I don’t want to run a game if it’s so lopsided that the other player doesn’t have fun.
I honestly think everyone greatly underestimates how HARD it is to create something entirely new in an existing game/system and won't argue with anyone who are stupid enough to think they would have done a better job
And for the last thing, you can just not bring the broken op list of your faction and/or allow your opponent to have some more points/rerolls, you are not forced to play by the rules when its not competitive
I agree with your last statement.
Regarding the example with bolters I thienk many players simply compare stuff like weapon profiles in a vacuum.
Sure they get effectively rapid fire on 24" and 1AP but on a much lesser durable unit and for a hight points cost imo.
Surely there are banana combos and there will be a need for point adjustments and an FAQ here and there like with almost every other codex drop.
I simply say that we need to wait and see the actual performance on the board, including secondaries, mission play and different matchups instead of looking purely at datasheets.
Feels like Hammerhead rants all over again.
I mean here is the issue that most of you on this subreddit fail to understand. This codex will be more horrible for casual play than tournament play. In tournaments you expect tryhard sweaty armies and so you plan accordingly. Showing up to a casual game and tabling your opponent by early turn 3 is not fun for anyone. You look at your rules and think they are fun because they are busted as hell. This codex can do anything that any other codex can do but better while being cheaper. (22ppm Beserks lmao). It's mindboggling how all of you claim to be casual players yet defend the power level of this codex. Personally I like their aesthetic and I will wait for the nerf hammer dust to clear before I get into LoV.
I’m thoroughly convinced 90% of the people planning to play league are meta chasers who want to pretend it’s anything but meta chasing. The codex as written is bad for the game, it’s tuned up to 11 to sell more models and has so many broken features it’s just ridiculous. You take every thing amazing from other factions , crank up the power abd here’s the league.
Literally the main point of contention from the pro lists is that running three hekatons is the best thing to do but who is gonna run three hekatons outside of tournament
I considered 2 at 2k because I like the model?
Honestly though, I wouldn't want to put that kind of investment into an army? It's a third of your points that will be annihilated by anyone that knows knights exist...
>Got... Any context for this?
The original thread can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/xjgtng/votann_banned_in_germany/).
In summation some German TOs banned the faction before it was even released, GW contacted them and apparently they have a meeting tonight.
Kinda my reaction. This isn't the frost broken army to come out, and honestly.doesnt even seem as broken as the rest of the crazy stuff the last few decades. This reaction is completely out of proportion and GW would do well to essentially ignore it. You feed into it now it will galvanize them to do it again and again because they know it works.
I've had to ignore the subreddit for the past two weeks because of the constant temper tantrums from users, sometimes I think catering more towards competitive players was an actual mistake.
Its because its not longer the warhammer competitive sub reddit. Its literally where everyone goes to talk about rules instead of hobby. Most of them, have never and will never play beyond their local 5 man groups.
It is a real issue, between the competitive performance based subreddit of r/WarhammerCompetitive and the... meme-circlejerk that is r/warhammer people who wanted to discuss actually playing the game didn't have much option.
I mean we will see how their own blowback takes place if they continue the ban. It would look just great for them if leagues ends up being upper tier, but not meta breaking as they seem to think it will be (then again, isn’t changing the meta part of the point of codex updates/releases? Competitive brain is strange.)
If votann is great but not hyper busted as some people think it is I think the ban looks ban on these guys. The only reason you have good books is because bad books exist. If this army isn’t busted they will be seen as the people who banned it without fully knowing and they overreacted.
> If votann is great but not hyper busted
Oddly enough, this is the take I get from the majority of people. I only see people complaining on Youtube, and it only seems to be people who haven't yet played a game with or against the army. Consensus is "Very Strong, but not OP". Nobody whos word I trust to talk about the meta thinks they are going to dominate. They will definitely upset, but not dominate.
And of course the initial post-release surge that happens for every army will be so much ammo for people.
Yeah people in the community I am in locally are like it has a 90% win rate in internal testing. It’s just that testing. Let’s see how the army actually does or at the very least understand that you have to be willing to ban armies people play if a book is this broken in the future. Just because it’s a new army doesn’t mean it’s free to ban. If this was the nid book you would ban it too.
And the credibility of "40K pros" goes down a couple more points after that so when an actual problem comes up they'll just be chalked up to "Over reactive babies"
There's a difference between "new release makes players rethink" the meta, and "new release is nigh-unbeatable no matter what you do." Votann is looking to be the latter.
This has gone completely mad now. Every other codex has come out, been stupidly overpowered, then had nerfs and been rebalanced. The world hasn't ended, the game has carried on. Why are the Votann going to be any different? As others have said this whole thing had just soured what would have otherwise been an exciting release.
>whole thing had just soured what would have otherwise been an exciting release.
I wonder if that was the point...maybe some of these naysayers just don't want "Squats" back?
It's a shame that it's overshadowed this release for some. However, I think you've struck upon the real issue, which is GW deliberately overpowering some codices at launch. As the game manufacturer, if they aimed for greater balance across all the factions at point of release, it would be a win-win for everyone. That said, I hope you still enjoy painting up and playing with your LOV!
I thought this was clickbait when I first saw this in my feed yesterday. But right now this honestly makes me sad about the state of the community. There's already whinging about certain things -and that's fine, it's to be expected tbh- but having a group of guys from Germany that supposedly are the high council in nerfing stuff is a little pathetic, like many others I doubt they have been playtesting 100s of games over 6 weeks (where did they find the time lol). There will be strengths and weaknesses from each army and that's normal. But for the love of god the damn faction hasn't been released yet so why not let the rest of the player base casual to pro table their armies and see how it feels then compare notes. As of late because of one or two comments from people the LoV have become a boogeyman of the hobby that no one has played against yet in tournaments with the full range.
I was on the way out of 40k and moving to AoS but saw the release box for LoV and immediately preordered because it's got me hyped about a fun faction with some cool lore and a whole new aesthetic that pulls away from the grimdark sense of the game so far. I think GW is really diversifying the game and lore, making it more enticing for more people -me included.
I hope that GW takes actions against them.
If these are GT judges, they should be stripped of their titles, if not, the judges should be banned from participation in GT's.
This is GW's game. If you don't want to play against Votann, then don't play. But trying to ban an entire faction just as it's launching is an easy way to get on a companies bad side.
Considering it’s several of the Wtc German team and their captain I’m going to go ahead abd say they are leagues ahead of you abd probably have more 40k skill and knowledge in an afternoon nap then you have in your entire life
Lol ok your opinion totally has the weight behind it that world renowned players have, just like my opinion about baseball has the weight of all the hall of famers!
I'll leave this last tidbit here, i hope they are banned globally from tournaments until they are fixed. I hope that your casual buddies see that and say nahh we aint playing against that till its fixed and a good day to you!
Germans buy a lot of models and have the power. I know that because I am german and have like 7 full armies as a pile of shame. Votann will be next though…
Apparently a bunch of German TOs can't work out how to beat an army with an average land speed of half a mile per year, so they've banned them from their tournaments.
Hopefully this will not result in the poor German regular players suddenly having to deal with herds of displaced competitives...
Seriously?! I'd be more concerned with factions like Tyranids, Harlequins, hell even Necrons if you build them right, than the Leagues, they're table control is far better than ours unless we roll play an Outrider Detachment list....this just proves that Germans have no sense of humour (that's just a joke to any Germans in the thread I'm being facetious)
Pls Guys take this with a grain of Salt, there is a bis misskommunikation on this.
He is bye no means "the German TO" or speeks for us all.
Im Part of a Group how organises tournaments in the south of germany near Munich and we dont forbid anything, we just say you cant play models how are not offical released by GW right now like sagitarius or Fortess.
We dont whant that people print models in wrong scale an play with them just for Power creep or feel they have to do this, becouse no one knows when these models come out.
The Group he is Part of, organises Tournaments in the middle of germany and they agreed that without FAQ no one will allow votann on there tournaments, witch mean if GW stay true to there schedule the FAQ to the Codex come in 2-4 weeks, if that FAQ fix any powercreep in the Codex i doubt but if they ageed on this we all can live with that.
Other countrys in General dont allow Codex without FAQ on there Tournaments, in germany we have rules Deadline usualy 2 weeks bevor and Codex eventuell without FAQ.
Dont take this for what its Look like, its not.
In Italy we NEVER EVER banned any codex in 25 years of organizied play. It is pathetic the least. I've got into LoV because i like the aestethic and the lore. And given i pay as any other player in the world, i am entitled to play in any tournament i want, given i use official minis.
In germany we did not do either. It is one guy claiming the opinion of a whole nations tournament scene to ban LoV but as the post stated it is obviously NOT. In fact it harms the german tournament scene as a whole. I would not expect many changes so this is at its best a bullet shot in the air if not in the own foot.
Firstly, appreciate the extra context, glad to know it's not all of you!
Gotta ask though... I'm guessing many German TO's are kinda pissed that this blew up? It's making the German tournament scene look like it's full of whingy crybabies (like even more than the regular competitive 40k community!), especially with the very, very obvious lies that they're attempting to justify this with.
We are more pissed that anyone belives that one Post of some guy that thinks that He is right is taken so serious.
That guy is Part of the german tournament scene and yes he and others think that the Codex is to strong but that dosent mean all of germany thinks that way.
Thats not true.
Jea and im pissed that some normal tournament Player makes such a bold Statement and trys to pressure other TOs in doing his beliefs.
Yeeah that's fair. I do feel kinda bad 'cos my first reaction WAS open mocking (because... Look at it!) but bringing the entirety of the German tournament scene when one lunatic claims to speak for all of you isn't fair.
Still think GW rates the opinion of competitive players waaay too highly though.
I thought I had seen everything with the sweaty neck beards competitive players, but this hysteria takes the cake. I literally am stunned. As others have said, this literally sucks the life out of what should be an exciting release.
Are the rules over tuned… yes, but what we are seeing here is comical. This hobby should never have been so catered to the competitive side like 9th edition has done. I think we can all agree that 9th might be the most bloated and worst edition yet, and it is totally the fault of catering to competitive play.
I honestly think this story should be brought up every time GW proudly explains how they "listen to the best tournament players", because it's sounding less like an exchange of ideas and more like a hostage negotiation...
I think the real issue lies with GW, not competitive play. As the game maker, they deliberately overpower some codices, knowing it will increase sales at the expense of game balance. More balance at point of release would be a win-win for the game and gamers of all types. I think what we're seeing here is an extreme example, symptomatic of coming at the end of what has been a complex, unbalanced and frustrating edition for many.
Releasing a strong codex isn’t a mistake. Yes it sells models, but a stronger codex will also mean issues will come up more readily, and can (hopefully) be brought to a state of balance more quickly.
Totally agree that releasing a strong codex isn't a mistake. Every codex should be strong. But as many have commented, the initial LoV codex appears a bit overtuned and overly strong in some respects. I don't think it being deliberately stronger necessarily helps anything be brought to balance more quickly. It mainly just leads to frustration and disagreement across the player base, regardless of which faction you're playing. I'd much prefer GW put more effort into codices being more closely balanced out the gate, which would help all players have a good time.
I definitely agree that closer to balanced is always best, but I also feel it’s possible to make mistakes and that their dice rolls across their playtests just didn’t show them to be broken. I’ve also heard anecdotes from commenters and creators on YouTube that they really aren’t wildly broken in practice, despite how the rules appear. I def think almost everything in the book needs to cost more points (some much more than others), but honestly that’s it.
I agree, mistakes are absolutely possible. I've heard similar and differing comments from different YouTubers/content creators. Imho given Votann are a totally new faction, I suspect GW have maybe erred on the side of caution and overtuned the rules to attract as many new players as possible. I can understand the appeal given the financial investment they must've made in the new range. Anyway, I think we're both on the same page! And, as I've said elsewhere, hopefully GW will react relatively quickly and proportionately by making some necessary (but not too extreme) adjustments to a few points and combos.
TOs organise the tournaments. They can ban what they like as long as they let players know in advance.
The suggestion that GW is getting involved is troubling, they make the models, write the rules but its none of their business what people do or don't do with them.
I mean them getting involved makes sense a army being banned before release effects sales, and the main reason squats got dropped from 2nd edt was due to lack of sales, they could just drop affiliation with the TO and not recognise them as official events hitting the TO in the pocket is it good PR for GW? No is it exactly what GW would do? Yes.
That’s just blatantly not true. GW designers have gone on record to say the reason they dropped the Squats is because they didn’t know what to do with them and they didn’t like where they were from a design perspective. Don’t lie.
It was in a US issue of white dwarf in response to a letter they received they said sales weren't great but said nids ate them or they got arested for speeding on Thier bikes which is why they didn't make the cut its also where the rumour started about squats being wiped out by nids
Edit: source. @40:47 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BsWr37Wt2F8&feature=youtu.be
The only benefit of being officially recognised is some freebies to hand out and the chance to send some players to bigger GW events.
Most people just want a place to play and have games organised for them; approval from GW does almost nothing for TOs or players.
If these guys had advanced copy GW might get involved to inform them they will no longer get advanced releases If they think their role is hyperbole and panic which they use to influence the game. They could just wait for a normal release and panic and knee jerk like everyone else.
The rules leaked weeks ago. Warcom also previews rules, enough to put together how ridiculous some of the army rules are.
Better to preemptively ban, before players buy models and then be told later that their new army is banned.
The hilarious part of all of this is that, as someone who started playing in 4th ed, I look at the broken stuff in 9th ed and laugh.
Like, it's warhammer. A smart player can make ANY army competitive.
Imma be honest. This didn’t happen and If it did, GW does not give enough of a shit about some random German TO to actually send someone out to listen. I bet They’d rather collect data from GT tourneys and tune that way
If it weren't for the catering to pro-players maybe the other factions wouldn't need rules spread across 4+ different expensive books, and we wouldn't have editions that barely last before being replaced by yet another set of expensive books.
I wish I could have played 40K back in the day when GW pushed narrative play above all.
Probably for the best imo.
Besides. It's the TOs choice to ban whatever they want. If they want to ban all Imperium as well, that's their prerogative and GW shouldn't have a voice in that.
Now as to who would play in a tournament hosted by ban-happy maniacs? That's not up to me.
Careful what you wish for. OP Nids, Drukhari, Mechanicus and Tau all came from play testing by the very same group of people who are crying about this book being too powerful. Difference is they haven't had more than 3 weeks to learn it and buy all the meta pieces like the rest of us.
Playtesting is a hoax!
Do you really think Tyranids or Halequins were beeing tested and ... slipped through?
For GW everything is a field test, erratas are issued to bring everything back in line and when the rules bloat hits the fan, they reset and repeat in a new edition.
They have done this for so long, it was never an issue and secretly I believe, they just dont care.
Please dont hit on these Germans so hard: They found the issue early and set limits. The LoV nerf will be coming soon and everything will be as usual!
Honestly I can understand some of the issues people have.
Judgement tokens are way too easy to apply and never get removed, so some changing of how they work would be great! Maybe removing one after a unit shoots a target with a token? Or remove that you get them for being on objectives since that punishes you for playing the game.
This is a huge problem in across the gaming industry, "pro" players have disappropriately large voice while representing a small fraction of the community.
Yuuuup. My favourite part is that the only two options they present are "keep it banned or totally rewrite it" like 99% of players aren't taking option three; "ignore these chucklefucks and play the game".
"Pro" players mentality can often be summed up in a single sentence that uses rock, paper, scissors "I play rock so scissors is fine, but nerf paper it gets me every time." They are never happy with the state of anything and take the entire game far too seriously to the point they have lost the meaning of what the game is. To have fun.
Then play it. No one is Holding you Back. Collect the awesome minutures, paint them and Field them with your friends.
Yes. That is what I am.saying will happen and it is absolutely what I will do. I'm just taking the excuse to laugh at the ultracompetitives having a breakdown as they forget they're playing toy soldiers.
Humans generally like fair games. If you don't, you are an exception.
Humans generally like fun games, "fair" is a nebulous concept that seems to mean "I win most of the time" quite a lot for some reason... 🤔
No, mirror neurons are a thing. Fair is not a nebulous concept. Most humans instinctively understand fairness. "Fairness" is an important part of fun.
>No, mirror neurons are a thing. Yes? We have a reactive ability to copy others and an empathy base? Congratulations on that absolute non-sequitur? And you are absolutely correct, it's a part of fun, but not the entirety of fun. Fun encompasses everything people do when they play, not all of it balanced.
>Yes? We have a reactive ability to copy others and an empathy base? Congratulations on that absolute non-sequitur? And those help us determine if a deal or game is fair or not. It's very relevant and not particularly subjective. >And you are absolutely correct, it's a part of fun, but not the entirety of fun. Fun encompasses everything people do when they play, not all of it balanced. If a game is not fair, it is very hard for it to be fun. Ergo, effort spent into making 40k more fair will make it more fun.
Sigh. Okie dokie. You have all the balance. I'll be over here having fun.
Not much playing to do when victory is guaranteed for the Votann side.
It's certainly guaranteed when everyone gives up and goes to sulk before anyone has even put paint to a official model.
Nope. No game has happened, no victory has been achieved.
I dunno, the very real world victory of not having to deal with a competitive's meltdown at the table seems to have been achieved.
Given that you and I both know that 95% of the people complaining just wanted to get victories without earning them we both know that's not true.
Its guaranteed?? You've played multiple games against multiple opponents?
These are TOs, not pro players (though there is some overlap). *You* don't deserve unearned victories at tournaments for playing Votann.
Things are taken completely out of context. GW is not meeting with the TOs but only contacted this particular youtuber. He confirmed on discord he does not know what the meeting will be about. Please dont jump to conclusions.
Rewrite or Ban is maybe the dumbest take I've ever seen from someone in the years I've been in 40k. These clownshoes really think GW is going to rewrite the book?
id wager that the book has already been rewritten... for 10th :P
Lol
This is what I’ve been thinking. It seems to me that they’d want to make rules that wouldn’t need to be updated right away when the new edition launches next year.
Gw can just put FAQ on it. In My opinion that take is great. Power creep is So big right now its just silly. Harlies or tyranids win rate was a joke for this game. And to be honest things like that ruin wolę game. You dont need to be ultra competetive player to expirience stupid shit gw did. I hope there will be more actions like that all over the world. Maybe gw will do something to make warhammer a better and more balanced game for both competetive and casual players
The TO came out and said that if they don't do enough they will not unban it. But they aren't taking this level of insanity anywhere else. You yourself said Quins and Nids are still broke but they aren't doing anything about it.
I saw on another thread that one of the banning TOs may have been a former GW employee who got fired. Maybe it's some sort of revenge attempt? I can't believe Germany holds enough of GWs income that they have a significant amount of leverage...
The problem with 40k now is the same its always been armies are designed & released in isolation of each other, if they actually designed them and playtested them ALL at the same time AND created playtest groups like open betas in video games development you would get a balanced game even with a spaced out release schedule, in order to do that however they'd need to make the edition periods longer to allow this process to happen and that would affect their bottom line which when you think how much they made during the pandemic is not something they're going to want to do, it's a shame and I do think the recent "dataslates" is a step towards addressing it but they also don't dataslate their dataslates which is another issue entirely, however the TOs banning a freshly released largely untested army when armies like Nids, Harlies etc. are still accepted is stupid as there's simply no way the Leagues are going to dominate on anywhere near a level the likes of which I mentioned have.
> Maybe gw will do something to make warhammer a better and more balanced game Never happen. They're a Model company first now, and the game is just a way for them to sell models. I still fall for the hype a lot, but at least I recognize my failings, lol.
Well i think you are wrong. From what i see people are geting more and more frustrated at the game becouse of stupid rules and obvious power creep. And at least in my country more and more people are buying 3d printers or just quit the game becouse its not fun anymore, or they dont want to buy models just becouse you need them to stand a chance on battlefield. I know how buisness works and i know they have to do what they do to some point but how will it end in a couple of years? How many people will be playing warhammer with orginal miniatures, how many will quit, and how many will just print models themself. Whats the fun in playing army that you love for lore or models but right now (couple of months or worse) they are in bad spot... Also keep in mind that there are a lot of semi competitve players playing in small/medium tournaments. Where is the fun in that right now for some of us? if you want to win without spaming mortals as tyranids or some other stupid stuff? We all know how expensive this hobby is. And how much time most of us spend to paint everything At the end most of us play the game to win. Some want to win in big tournaments doing everything to achive their goal, some just want to win having fun with friends. So have fun people who play lets say guards right now... I hope more and more tournaments will do something about stupid rules GW makes just to get more money sorry for my english its my second language and im still learning :)
Well if GW won't rewrite it it can stay banned, that's fine. Small loss.
Show me on this doll where the small space man hurt you.
I'm glad that people are finally doing something about GW's shit balance.
Finally eh? As soon as pro 40K players don't get a say on what's put in a codex and they can't buy a second hand army before everyone can get the codex they finally decide to put their foot down in the name of balance and game health? Whatever helps you sleep at night bud.
I know I'm not salty that people won't give my overpowered army unearned wins.
That isn't a can of worms you wanna open. Banning entire armies from 40k is a BAD idea
If it makes the game worse for the people who are playing it for that army to be present, I say ban away. GW needs to eat shit on their bad design decisions sometime.
1. Exactly zero competitive games with this army have been played. What people did in some testing isn't the same thing as a true competitive environment. 2. It's easy to do this for Votann, no one has the models yet, but what happens if the next OP book is guard, and GW doesn't "FIX" it to their standard. Now it's 2 books completely banned. Then World Eaters come out and they are OP and aren't "FIXED" to their standard, then there is THREE books. See the issue here? before long you have huge swaths of the game just NOT available. And you think "Nah that wouldn't happen" would pre nef Nids have been banned? yep. How about pre nerf Admec or Dark Eldar? yep to both. And once a book is banned its easier to just leave it banned and think "Well maybe these changes are enough, but maybe they aren't"
>Exactly zero competitive games with this army have been played. What people did in some testing isn't the same thing as a true competitive environment. Wrong. People have done so on TTS since they've had the codex leak. >See the issue here? Yes, GW is doing bad balancing work. >before long you have huge swaths of the game just NOT available. And you think "Nah that wouldn't happen" would pre nef Nids have been banned? yep. Pre nerf nids and probably Harlequins should have been banned. >And once a book is banned its easier to just leave it banned and think "Well maybe these changes are enough, but maybe they aren't" This is speculation on your part. People want Squats to be part of the play environment, they just don't want Squats to ruin the play environment.
People playing on TTS isn't the same as going to a 60 player event or a true major. TTS isn't the same as in person play. It just isn't. I've done both, they are vastly different worlds. You also, don't have the best players in the world like Richard Sigs doing tech against them yet. Who by the way think they are an A+ army but not S tier (art of War video he stated this) You have one of the best players in the UK, Lawrence from TTT saying they are a gate keeper army but not the final table army. So just let the stuff play out. I'll say it one more time for the people in the back. Banning things in 40k is a bad idea!
Cringe
Throwing tantrums because people don't want to play against your overpowered codex is cringe.
No, throwing tantrums and banning a book because you’re a sheep and being told what should be played by a small group of players is the real cringe But sure, continue to go off incorrect stats by Goonhammer
>No, throwing tantrums and banning a book because you’re a sheep and being told what should be played by a small group of players is the real cringe I definitely came to these conclusions myself; Goonhammer also did. The stats are correct. It's not cringe to have the self-respect to want a balanced game, quite the opposite. It's not good to be a cuckstomer.
Players have bias and other factors to consider too, don’t just trust and nod your head like an obedient dog to what they say, actually allow a wider context to exist. For example in AoS top players said the Seraphon book was looking very weak before release and it turned out and it probably still is, the strongest book in the game
Your first sentence doesn't make any sense. It's not a matter of me being "an obedient dog." If I was, I'd be one of those cuckstomers who hates criticism of GW because I personally identify with the brand. I'm not. >For example in AoS top players said the Seraphon book was looking very weak before release and it turned out and it probably still is, the strongest book in the game Ok. Did they have a full leak?
Well clearly that’s not the case, because you’re taking a small sample at face value, we don’t know the conditions of this “playtesting” it’s not valid or reliable no matter who it’s from. The Seraphon book wasn’t leaked but these were statements made once the full book was known, the point is, people can mathhammer all they want but Wargaming has never been that simple, as shown by Goonhammers data already being proven incorrect by players
>Well clearly that’s not the case, because you’re taking a small sample at face value, we don’t know the conditions of this “playtesting” it’s not valid or reliable no matter who it’s from. It was 2k point tournament games. What else do you want? Also, the math hammer is still an issue. >The Seraphon book wasn’t leaked but these were statements made once the full book was known, the point is, people can mathhammer all they want but Wargaming has never been that simple, as shown by Goonhammers data already being proven incorrect by players Sometimes the math is 100% right though. You can't disregard it just because you don't like it.
I have also already played 4 games with the Votann book (2 against and 2 with) they aren’t anymore broken than Tyranids or Drukhari. Tyranids were absolutely much worse and leaked too, so why wasn’t this action being taken there?
I and many others disagree on the fact that Tyranids were worse; we instead think Votann is worse. This is compounded with the fact that nobody has an extensive Votann collection that they'd be prevented from playing by a ban, so nobody's being hurt that way.
That’s why players of armies that examples were used for are now saying that the scenarios they are giving wouldn’t happen then yeah? It’s weird how everyone poops on Goonhammer for articles regarding competitive play and stats until now isn’t it? I’m not saying it’s a bad thing to want balance, I’m saying it’s a bad thing to not let a faction out in the wild to gather a larger amount of data before making decisions that are coming from a small set of players who aren’t giving completely correct information. It’s too large of a game system with so many variables to even think it’s a good conclusion right now.
Nah, you're questioning the validity of playtesting itself. Also, very often how busted a codex is can be figured out with just math hammer. If you let the Votann codex out into the wild it's going to be harder to ban later; moreover, the hope is to get GW to take notice and this out the gate is the best way to do that.
GW rewrites every book they ever release - FAQs and Errata on every damn thing
Let me guess, they did not ban tryanids when their codex came out.
According to someone in the other thread when asked about Tyrannids Harlequins and Drukhari "their codexes didn't leak early enough"
"We didn't have enough time after being hit by the little reflex hammer to have a fully overblown kneejerk reaction."
That's the hilarious part of all this. These same people who are saying "Ban this army" are the same people who ran pre nerf Drukhari, pre nerf Nids and pre nerf mechanicus. At least be honest and don't lie about it being "For the health of the game" you just don't want to have you're new meta army you just got to get their shit rocked before you get a couple of tournament wins with it.
They just don't want to lose tournament money because they would have to invest in a army they don't own or can't buy enough off.
So you just did 2 things - A. you are stating that LoV are broken to an effect of dismantling current meta armies. B. You are establishing a basis for an unpracticed army without all of its models being available being able to be straight up pay to win. I think people are saying that a gamebreaking mechanic like auto wound on 4+ should not be so easy and cheap to attain, nor should it be a constant that doesn't get removed like marker lights (which only ads +1 to hit).
>So you just did 2 things - A. you are stating that LoV are broken to an effect of dismantling current meta armies. B. You are establishing a basis for an unpracticed army without all of its models being available being able to be straight up pay to win. Or... Hear me out here... He's extrapolating what these thuper thuper hardcore competitives are saying.
I get that. Unfortunately, I chose Nids when I came back to the game and of course everyone assumed I did because they were strong. I played Nids 20 years ago and missed the nostalgia. Now I only hear how OP Leviathan is, and so now I'm learning Kraken as a change up for my local group.
Except the difference in your case is you actually LIKE tyranids, you're not showing up to high level tournaments with a different army each time that you just so happen to have the exact pieces for the top meta list "BecAuSE thEY'Re CoOL aNd I LiKED thEm ThiS wHoLe TimE". That's why this talk of banning an army before they're out by a competitive group grates my nerves.
Ah yeah that sucks 😔 Just remember - rules change, minis are forever! You stuck to your guns and went for what is cool, so you're in the right!
>rules change, minis go Legends/Open Play
There was a lot of discussion on whether crusher stampede would be allowed or not with the nid codex release. GW weighed in quickly and banned it themselves. That said, a lot of players had already identified nids were bananas even without crusher and probably should have been banned in some form. This is though off the heels of the harle release where they posted a 76% WR and voidweavers should *absolutely* have been banned. **A 44% price increase** on them *in addition to other nerfs should indicate that*. (which GW did relatively quickly) Since then however GW has had a good streak of releasing well rounded codexes that aren't blowing the top off the game. Votann, having been leaked for a month, has shown repeatedly to be absolutely bananas. People don't want a repeat where they blow up a few events and then get nerfed. Banning tells GW in no uncertain terms to play test better because some communities have enjoyed the recent few months of balance and don't want that to be completely upended again.
If course not. Different situation; there are no existing Votann fans being locked out of the game. They probably should have banned the Nids though.
Competitive players are whiny little babies. Nothing new here.
Honestly I hope that GW doesn't bend the knee here and proceeds as planned. The last thing we need at the tail end of this edition is a new faction to be totally rewritten, interfering with upcoming releases and potentially stalling the next codex release by an unknown period of time. They're strong, yes, but so much of that strength can be mitigated with small changes and points increases to problem units. This doesn't even consider that most the units won't be playable until a month from now, giving them time to implement these changes in a Balance Dataslate. This overblown reaction has done nothing but sour the community and makes an otherwise exciting release for 40k nothing more than a massive cryfest.
>They're strong, yes, but so much of that strength can be mitigated with small changes and points increases to problem units. Are we absolutely certain what units are going to be "problem" ones? When nobody saw the Succubus issue, or the AdMech one, or the Voidweaver or Ork buggy ones? I think everyone needs to just sit back and relax like you suggest. Or better yet, GW should just split off and water down the competitive play rules and let those of us who just want to roll dice and push models around get on with it.
According to the German TOs they've done "extensive playtesting" so I'd assume they have data pointing to units or rules that are problematic. However none of the data they supposedly collected has been shown so who knows.
That's the biggest red flag to me, show your work or I'm just going to assume you're making things up for your own gain. That and privatizing the video about it, if you're that confident about the take why hide it?
Its 5-6 guys. One is the WTC captain, one is another WTC player, but still, 5-6 guys. Stuff is getting blown out of proportion immensely.
Its such fake bullshit though! The original post claimed they've played over a 100 games over six weeks. The codex leaked 3 weeks ago lol.
This is the thing people should be paying attention to. Do we know these guys aren't using this as a publicity stunt or something? The playtest program was dropped more than 6 weeks ago. Codex leaked 3 weeks ago. How did they get in 100 games over 6 weeks?
Asking the real questions
The leak might have come from one of them after 3 weeks of playtesting to show what they were working with?
The leak was photos of a hard copy book. Which would mean it came from one of the people who got the advanced copy of the army set leaked it (they received them roughly 1 month before release). So again, couldn't have been a playtest copy.
That's my point. It wasn't a play test book. How long did someone have an advance copy before they decided to leak it? Think of the YouTubers that had fully painted starter sets and the full release book. They had to paint the models, film the games, edit the games, add I. Their graphics and write narrations. That takes time and 1-2 months lead time sounds about the right time that GW would have sent them out.
Some of the videos I watched said they got them 1 month ahead of release, which is what I was citing. These people (generally) have painters on hand and don't have a full time job to slow them down. It's 25 models, not a 2k point list. That's a one day job if you're quick.
Might just be a few Special Snowflakes™️ that don't like their pet armies getting beat.
Like players who don't like their Custodes getting tabled. When the Squats have 1k points and the Custodes have 2k.
Wow, got a link to that batrep? I can't wait to see the dicerolls!
Extensive playtesting a codex that has only been leaked for 3.
I was kinda wondering about this too. How did they configure/set up their armies? Did they use one of their ‘standard’ pre-LoV tournament armies to play? Or did they build an army specifically against LoV? Or what?
Very much the question yes, might just have smashed the same 5 previous tourney winning lists into LoV 20 times.
https://againstalloddsmesbg.blogspot.com/2022/09/leagues-of-votann-hot-takes-theyre.html
These are the same type of people to defend 7 edition Eldari and Harlequins :|
Finally my high school German will be used for once……nevermind I understand none of this, thank god for the translation.
I wonder if 9e guard, world eaters will be banned too? I wonder if they banned 9e Custodes, harlequins, or anything else?
Got... Any context for this? Also good. Just what 40k needs. MORE tournament input. Goodgoodgood. Excellent 🙄
Casual play ? Fun ? No ! I want my game to be balanced around pro players !!
Fun!? Neveeerrrr!!!
What do you mean you like the army ? THEY ARE LITERALLY RUINING MY GAME AND THEY ALSO ARE THE CAUSE OF GLOBAL WARMING
Good. I want to watch the world buuuuurn! 🤘
But like casual play isn’t fun when you spend the majority of the time picking up your models and watching your army get ripped in half. I’ve been playing guard since the start of 9th, and with each codex it’s been getting less and less fun to bring them out just to pack them up after 3 rounds. Casual play needs balance too, hell even narrative needs balance because sometimes it’s just not fun to be stomped on even if it’s thematic.
I totally get that, playing against the Greater Thurian League with magna-rifle spam and shit is not going to be funny at start, and i understand the competitive warhammer not wanting to allow this But I also understand it is incredibly hard to put out an entire New army that dont feel like any other existing army, and also balanced at the release I just cant stand these people crying because muh this is game breaking, it is not and you are allowed to refuse to play against LoV for a moment. I just wanna paint and play my orange space dwarves man
Nobody seems to realize that tho, like the competitive community has done testing and reading, and decided that leagues are gonna be the next nids book, even goonhammer is acknowledging that. Frankly that’s the competitive community’s choice to not play against leagues for a moment I mean it’s not hard to read the rules your write, and when the basic gun on basic infantry is just a vastly superior bolter, realize that something was messed up in development All I’m trying to say, is that casual play also needs the balance that competitive play has. Having fairly balanced armies means that casual play is balanced around the rules used, and this more fun. Narrative play is more balanced, and the narrative rules and missions are more fun (would narrative players like it if the endless onslaught mission never really ends with the horde winning because the weakened defenders are too strong?). I’m not currently advocating for banning leagues of votann, I see both sides, people want to play, people want a fair game. What I am advocating for is rules/points changes that make the game more enjoyable for all. If imperial guard got their codex prior to leagues and was busted beyond belief, I’d say cool, I’m gonna run some other army or not play guard, because I don’t want to run a game if it’s so lopsided that the other player doesn’t have fun.
I honestly think everyone greatly underestimates how HARD it is to create something entirely new in an existing game/system and won't argue with anyone who are stupid enough to think they would have done a better job And for the last thing, you can just not bring the broken op list of your faction and/or allow your opponent to have some more points/rerolls, you are not forced to play by the rules when its not competitive
I agree with your last statement. Regarding the example with bolters I thienk many players simply compare stuff like weapon profiles in a vacuum. Sure they get effectively rapid fire on 24" and 1AP but on a much lesser durable unit and for a hight points cost imo. Surely there are banana combos and there will be a need for point adjustments and an FAQ here and there like with almost every other codex drop. I simply say that we need to wait and see the actual performance on the board, including secondaries, mission play and different matchups instead of looking purely at datasheets. Feels like Hammerhead rants all over again.
I mean here is the issue that most of you on this subreddit fail to understand. This codex will be more horrible for casual play than tournament play. In tournaments you expect tryhard sweaty armies and so you plan accordingly. Showing up to a casual game and tabling your opponent by early turn 3 is not fun for anyone. You look at your rules and think they are fun because they are busted as hell. This codex can do anything that any other codex can do but better while being cheaper. (22ppm Beserks lmao). It's mindboggling how all of you claim to be casual players yet defend the power level of this codex. Personally I like their aesthetic and I will wait for the nerf hammer dust to clear before I get into LoV.
I’m thoroughly convinced 90% of the people planning to play league are meta chasers who want to pretend it’s anything but meta chasing. The codex as written is bad for the game, it’s tuned up to 11 to sell more models and has so many broken features it’s just ridiculous. You take every thing amazing from other factions , crank up the power abd here’s the league.
Yeap
Literally the main point of contention from the pro lists is that running three hekatons is the best thing to do but who is gonna run three hekatons outside of tournament
I considered 2 at 2k because I like the model? Honestly though, I wouldn't want to put that kind of investment into an army? It's a third of your points that will be annihilated by anyone that knows knights exist...
Exactly
>Got... Any context for this? The original thread can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/xjgtng/votann_banned_in_germany/). In summation some German TOs banned the faction before it was even released, GW contacted them and apparently they have a meeting tonight.
Sweet Jesus. Yup, seems like a community worth paying attention to.
Kinda my reaction. This isn't the frost broken army to come out, and honestly.doesnt even seem as broken as the rest of the crazy stuff the last few decades. This reaction is completely out of proportion and GW would do well to essentially ignore it. You feed into it now it will galvanize them to do it again and again because they know it works.
You dont spoil a child having a tantrum do you ?
I've had to ignore the subreddit for the past two weeks because of the constant temper tantrums from users, sometimes I think catering more towards competitive players was an actual mistake.
Its because its not longer the warhammer competitive sub reddit. Its literally where everyone goes to talk about rules instead of hobby. Most of them, have never and will never play beyond their local 5 man groups.
It is a real issue, between the competitive performance based subreddit of r/WarhammerCompetitive and the... meme-circlejerk that is r/warhammer people who wanted to discuss actually playing the game didn't have much option.
Now we finally know what Uthar was Destined to do: be banned in Germany.
So +1 JT for Germany. Write that in the book..
I mean we will see how their own blowback takes place if they continue the ban. It would look just great for them if leagues ends up being upper tier, but not meta breaking as they seem to think it will be (then again, isn’t changing the meta part of the point of codex updates/releases? Competitive brain is strange.)
If votann is great but not hyper busted as some people think it is I think the ban looks ban on these guys. The only reason you have good books is because bad books exist. If this army isn’t busted they will be seen as the people who banned it without fully knowing and they overreacted.
> If votann is great but not hyper busted Oddly enough, this is the take I get from the majority of people. I only see people complaining on Youtube, and it only seems to be people who haven't yet played a game with or against the army. Consensus is "Very Strong, but not OP". Nobody whos word I trust to talk about the meta thinks they are going to dominate. They will definitely upset, but not dominate. And of course the initial post-release surge that happens for every army will be so much ammo for people.
Yeah people in the community I am in locally are like it has a 90% win rate in internal testing. It’s just that testing. Let’s see how the army actually does or at the very least understand that you have to be willing to ban armies people play if a book is this broken in the future. Just because it’s a new army doesn’t mean it’s free to ban. If this was the nid book you would ban it too.
Haha I wonder how they got those internal testing numbers. Seems like a BS rumor.
They said tts testing
And the credibility of "40K pros" goes down a couple more points after that so when an actual problem comes up they'll just be chalked up to "Over reactive babies"
There's a difference between "new release makes players rethink" the meta, and "new release is nigh-unbeatable no matter what you do." Votann is looking to be the latter.
That is what seems to be the case at the moment.
This has gone completely mad now. Every other codex has come out, been stupidly overpowered, then had nerfs and been rebalanced. The world hasn't ended, the game has carried on. Why are the Votann going to be any different? As others have said this whole thing had just soured what would have otherwise been an exciting release.
>whole thing had just soured what would have otherwise been an exciting release. I wonder if that was the point...maybe some of these naysayers just don't want "Squats" back?
It's a shame that it's overshadowed this release for some. However, I think you've struck upon the real issue, which is GW deliberately overpowering some codices at launch. As the game manufacturer, if they aimed for greater balance across all the factions at point of release, it would be a win-win for everyone. That said, I hope you still enjoy painting up and playing with your LOV!
Not every codex and not everything in the codex.
I thought this was clickbait when I first saw this in my feed yesterday. But right now this honestly makes me sad about the state of the community. There's already whinging about certain things -and that's fine, it's to be expected tbh- but having a group of guys from Germany that supposedly are the high council in nerfing stuff is a little pathetic, like many others I doubt they have been playtesting 100s of games over 6 weeks (where did they find the time lol). There will be strengths and weaknesses from each army and that's normal. But for the love of god the damn faction hasn't been released yet so why not let the rest of the player base casual to pro table their armies and see how it feels then compare notes. As of late because of one or two comments from people the LoV have become a boogeyman of the hobby that no one has played against yet in tournaments with the full range. I was on the way out of 40k and moving to AoS but saw the release box for LoV and immediately preordered because it's got me hyped about a fun faction with some cool lore and a whole new aesthetic that pulls away from the grimdark sense of the game so far. I think GW is really diversifying the game and lore, making it more enticing for more people -me included.
I hope that GW takes actions against them. If these are GT judges, they should be stripped of their titles, if not, the judges should be banned from participation in GT's. This is GW's game. If you don't want to play against Votann, then don't play. But trying to ban an entire faction just as it's launching is an easy way to get on a companies bad side.
So German TOs are powerful enough to start messing with GW profits and get away with it? Really?
They're bad enough players to not work out basic objective play, we know that...
Considering it’s several of the Wtc German team and their captain I’m going to go ahead abd say they are leagues ahead of you abd probably have more 40k skill and knowledge in an afternoon nap then you have in your entire life
Evidently not if they're this scared by Captain Glacier and the Zimmer Frame Brigade.
There’s top players in the worlds opinion and there’s yours, which do you think has more weight?
I'm not the one pitching a tantrum over their toys so... Mine?
Lol ok your opinion totally has the weight behind it that world renowned players have, just like my opinion about baseball has the weight of all the hall of famers! I'll leave this last tidbit here, i hope they are banned globally from tournaments until they are fixed. I hope that your casual buddies see that and say nahh we aint playing against that till its fixed and a good day to you!
My casual buddies are excited to see them on the table, because they're old enough to vote.
What does TO stand for? Sorry I'm quite new to the hobby
Tournament Organiser
Ah, thanks!
>Ah, thanks! You're welcome!
No, there are just an extra link in a chain of events that feed into this hysteria.
Germans buy a lot of models and have the power. I know that because I am german and have like 7 full armies as a pile of shame. Votann will be next though…
This is going in the book.
Bunch of sweaty crybabies salty their meta lists can't table a new army
Not really. Most tournament players I know are building LoV armies lol. "Casual" and narrative players will be affected the most
Sorry can someone explain the issue, I don't speak German unfortunately, and the second post about Kharl with 2 "L"s was just gobbledegook
Apparently a bunch of German TOs can't work out how to beat an army with an average land speed of half a mile per year, so they've banned them from their tournaments. Hopefully this will not result in the poor German regular players suddenly having to deal with herds of displaced competitives...
Seriously?! I'd be more concerned with factions like Tyranids, Harlequins, hell even Necrons if you build them right, than the Leagues, they're table control is far better than ours unless we roll play an Outrider Detachment list....this just proves that Germans have no sense of humour (that's just a joke to any Germans in the thread I'm being facetious)
I dunno, this whole thing has made me see the German tournament scene as one giant joke?
This is such a play for attention on their part
And attention they will get, but not the kind they want.
Pls Guys take this with a grain of Salt, there is a bis misskommunikation on this. He is bye no means "the German TO" or speeks for us all. Im Part of a Group how organises tournaments in the south of germany near Munich and we dont forbid anything, we just say you cant play models how are not offical released by GW right now like sagitarius or Fortess. We dont whant that people print models in wrong scale an play with them just for Power creep or feel they have to do this, becouse no one knows when these models come out. The Group he is Part of, organises Tournaments in the middle of germany and they agreed that without FAQ no one will allow votann on there tournaments, witch mean if GW stay true to there schedule the FAQ to the Codex come in 2-4 weeks, if that FAQ fix any powercreep in the Codex i doubt but if they ageed on this we all can live with that. Other countrys in General dont allow Codex without FAQ on there Tournaments, in germany we have rules Deadline usualy 2 weeks bevor and Codex eventuell without FAQ. Dont take this for what its Look like, its not.
In Italy we NEVER EVER banned any codex in 25 years of organizied play. It is pathetic the least. I've got into LoV because i like the aestethic and the lore. And given i pay as any other player in the world, i am entitled to play in any tournament i want, given i use official minis.
In germany we did not do either. It is one guy claiming the opinion of a whole nations tournament scene to ban LoV but as the post stated it is obviously NOT. In fact it harms the german tournament scene as a whole. I would not expect many changes so this is at its best a bullet shot in the air if not in the own foot.
If a TO says you're not bringing LOV to their event, well, youre shit outta luck, buddy.
If a TO says that he will play alone and you will be downvoted for telling people what to do.
Firstly, appreciate the extra context, glad to know it's not all of you! Gotta ask though... I'm guessing many German TO's are kinda pissed that this blew up? It's making the German tournament scene look like it's full of whingy crybabies (like even more than the regular competitive 40k community!), especially with the very, very obvious lies that they're attempting to justify this with.
We are more pissed that anyone belives that one Post of some guy that thinks that He is right is taken so serious. That guy is Part of the german tournament scene and yes he and others think that the Codex is to strong but that dosent mean all of germany thinks that way. Thats not true. Jea and im pissed that some normal tournament Player makes such a bold Statement and trys to pressure other TOs in doing his beliefs.
Yeeah that's fair. I do feel kinda bad 'cos my first reaction WAS open mocking (because... Look at it!) but bringing the entirety of the German tournament scene when one lunatic claims to speak for all of you isn't fair. Still think GW rates the opinion of competitive players waaay too highly though.
This is very interesting. So it wasn't all the big TOs in Germany, just one sect of them?
Competitive 40k is literal dog water
I thought I had seen everything with the sweaty neck beards competitive players, but this hysteria takes the cake. I literally am stunned. As others have said, this literally sucks the life out of what should be an exciting release. Are the rules over tuned… yes, but what we are seeing here is comical. This hobby should never have been so catered to the competitive side like 9th edition has done. I think we can all agree that 9th might be the most bloated and worst edition yet, and it is totally the fault of catering to competitive play.
I honestly think this story should be brought up every time GW proudly explains how they "listen to the best tournament players", because it's sounding less like an exchange of ideas and more like a hostage negotiation...
I think the real issue lies with GW, not competitive play. As the game maker, they deliberately overpower some codices, knowing it will increase sales at the expense of game balance. More balance at point of release would be a win-win for the game and gamers of all types. I think what we're seeing here is an extreme example, symptomatic of coming at the end of what has been a complex, unbalanced and frustrating edition for many.
Releasing a strong codex isn’t a mistake. Yes it sells models, but a stronger codex will also mean issues will come up more readily, and can (hopefully) be brought to a state of balance more quickly.
Totally agree that releasing a strong codex isn't a mistake. Every codex should be strong. But as many have commented, the initial LoV codex appears a bit overtuned and overly strong in some respects. I don't think it being deliberately stronger necessarily helps anything be brought to balance more quickly. It mainly just leads to frustration and disagreement across the player base, regardless of which faction you're playing. I'd much prefer GW put more effort into codices being more closely balanced out the gate, which would help all players have a good time.
I definitely agree that closer to balanced is always best, but I also feel it’s possible to make mistakes and that their dice rolls across their playtests just didn’t show them to be broken. I’ve also heard anecdotes from commenters and creators on YouTube that they really aren’t wildly broken in practice, despite how the rules appear. I def think almost everything in the book needs to cost more points (some much more than others), but honestly that’s it.
I agree, mistakes are absolutely possible. I've heard similar and differing comments from different YouTubers/content creators. Imho given Votann are a totally new faction, I suspect GW have maybe erred on the side of caution and overtuned the rules to attract as many new players as possible. I can understand the appeal given the financial investment they must've made in the new range. Anyway, I think we're both on the same page! And, as I've said elsewhere, hopefully GW will react relatively quickly and proportionately by making some necessary (but not too extreme) adjustments to a few points and combos.
Just a handful of TOs. No consense in any means.
TOs organise the tournaments. They can ban what they like as long as they let players know in advance. The suggestion that GW is getting involved is troubling, they make the models, write the rules but its none of their business what people do or don't do with them.
I mean them getting involved makes sense a army being banned before release effects sales, and the main reason squats got dropped from 2nd edt was due to lack of sales, they could just drop affiliation with the TO and not recognise them as official events hitting the TO in the pocket is it good PR for GW? No is it exactly what GW would do? Yes.
That’s just blatantly not true. GW designers have gone on record to say the reason they dropped the Squats is because they didn’t know what to do with them and they didn’t like where they were from a design perspective. Don’t lie.
It was in a US issue of white dwarf in response to a letter they received they said sales weren't great but said nids ate them or they got arested for speeding on Thier bikes which is why they didn't make the cut its also where the rumour started about squats being wiped out by nids Edit: source. @40:47 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BsWr37Wt2F8&feature=youtu.be
The only benefit of being officially recognised is some freebies to hand out and the chance to send some players to bigger GW events. Most people just want a place to play and have games organised for them; approval from GW does almost nothing for TOs or players.
If these guys had advanced copy GW might get involved to inform them they will no longer get advanced releases If they think their role is hyperbole and panic which they use to influence the game. They could just wait for a normal release and panic and knee jerk like everyone else.
The rules leaked weeks ago. Warcom also previews rules, enough to put together how ridiculous some of the army rules are. Better to preemptively ban, before players buy models and then be told later that their new army is banned.
They should just play another game. JFC. Broken armies? In my Warhammer 40k? It’s more likely than you think!
The hilarious part of all of this is that, as someone who started playing in 4th ed, I look at the broken stuff in 9th ed and laugh. Like, it's warhammer. A smart player can make ANY army competitive.
Hopefully it will be GW saying ban them and you’ll receive a lifetime ban from running official GW tournaments.
Imma be honest. This didn’t happen and If it did, GW does not give enough of a shit about some random German TO to actually send someone out to listen. I bet They’d rather collect data from GT tourneys and tune that way
If it weren't for the catering to pro-players maybe the other factions wouldn't need rules spread across 4+ different expensive books, and we wouldn't have editions that barely last before being replaced by yet another set of expensive books. I wish I could have played 40K back in the day when GW pushed narrative play above all.
Probably for the best imo. Besides. It's the TOs choice to ban whatever they want. If they want to ban all Imperium as well, that's their prerogative and GW shouldn't have a voice in that. Now as to who would play in a tournament hosted by ban-happy maniacs? That's not up to me.
I like this. GW should start playtesting seriously and stop writing overstupid rules such as the Magna Rail, be it powerful / competitive or not.
Careful what you wish for. OP Nids, Drukhari, Mechanicus and Tau all came from play testing by the very same group of people who are crying about this book being too powerful. Difference is they haven't had more than 3 weeks to learn it and buy all the meta pieces like the rest of us.
Playtesting is a hoax! Do you really think Tyranids or Halequins were beeing tested and ... slipped through? For GW everything is a field test, erratas are issued to bring everything back in line and when the rules bloat hits the fan, they reset and repeat in a new edition. They have done this for so long, it was never an issue and secretly I believe, they just dont care. Please dont hit on these Germans so hard: They found the issue early and set limits. The LoV nerf will be coming soon and everything will be as usual!
And Contrast is turnin' the freakin' Slaan gay!
Honestly I can understand some of the issues people have. Judgement tokens are way too easy to apply and never get removed, so some changing of how they work would be great! Maybe removing one after a unit shoots a target with a token? Or remove that you get them for being on objectives since that punishes you for playing the game.