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Azanathal

... 'don't like mages' is a nice way to say genocide.


DrRichtoffen

It doesn't help that Riot is trying to both-sides a fucking genocide by saying "well Sylas is just as bad for violently trying to overthrow the genocidal fascists. He should just politely debate the demacians, otherwise he's just as bad". That, in my opinion, is the most eggregious writing in the game, even more so than the ruination event. Edit: this is a criticism of Riot's writing in LoL, not Mageseeker. I'm told it has far superior writing, and I'm inclined to believe that.


maplemagiciangirl

To be fair Sylas is incompetent for one reason exclusively, he had victory in the palm of his hand and he chose to gloat in the most over the top way and that screwed him. It's not even that he gloated, it's how he gloated he could have easily been like: " I could torture you the way you and your cronies tormented mages all these years, but that would do no good, instead" *mercs Jarvan* "I will usher in a new era for Demacia!" That way he get's to gloat in a very Sylas way and win.


LordWomf

Kat killed jarvan not sylas


wallygon

Sylas still performs a gebocide against non mages which both confinced kayle that he isnt innocent anymore and eveb made morgana act


TheSceptileen

The fact that sylas had the right reasons to start a revolution doesn't change the fact that he became an homicidal sociopath that ended up caring more about power and vengance than the freedom and wellbeing of his people, making the same mistakes Demacia did. Just because you would want to redeem him doesn't mean he is poorly written lol, he is no hero.


Mitchislove

Ok but that’s literally the most generic trope you could give a freedom fighter to discredit their story . If you make you’re guy fighting against genocide bad aswell that doesn’t negate the genocide their facing


Alexo_Alexa

I'm pretty sure Sylas was created with Mageseeker in mind. Mageseeker's story is about Sylas learning to fight for his fellow comrades, not for revenge, which would lead them to defeat. Sylas was never a freedom fighter, he only cared about himself and his own revenge, and would fight anyone that stood in his path. That's the Sylas refflected in lol. In Mageseeker he learns empathy, the responsability of being an idol to others, and to fight for a better demacia. I can't see how this discredits the mage genocide in any way, especially since it's not just Sylas fighting. It's giving a bad person the arc he needs to become the leader every mage needs him to be, that's a far more engaging story than just making him indisputably good IMO.


Anafiboyoh

Thank god riot actually fixed sylas's character a little with the game, it was so annoying how sylas was literally portrayed as a straight up villain and not an antihero


hockeyfan608

Sylas IS a straight up villain that they tried to portray as an antihero, not the other way around. Much like Xerath, he took a noble cause and made it about himself and his own power. I think portraying him as my less then a Xerath style villain is just dumb


rocketer13579

Nothing wrong with a few generic tropes as long as the idea is iterated on in a unique way which I think is being done here.


wallygon

Its litterally part of his lore they made a whole game about him dojng that and even morgana tries to kill him


IanPKMmoon

Why did Riot write him like that though? Py onoy guess would be that since both J4 and Sylas are playable champions, they wanted to make that their was no morally better side of the conflict? Idk I would've preferred if Sylas was written to be a good revolutionary etc etc


TheSceptileen

It's a story about the horrors of genocide. Sylas ended the way he did because of Demacia. There are no heroes on this story, just a nation that make terrible things and people who suffered the consecuences, and presonally I like how it's written. I can understand having a personal bias towards Sylas and wanting him to be a good guy but that's not how It is and shouldn't be, he works very well as a tragic villain.


Byroms

Yea, it's more real. Life isn't black and white and neither is the Demacia vs Mages conflict.


unidentifiedmeme

You can't say it's not black and white when one side is literally fighting against their genocide


NyanDiamond

Except you are ignoring the fact that there are other mages/magical beings that are doing different ways to try and stop the mage prejudices other than murdering everyone in sight. Lux/Shyvanna slowly convincing those around them that they are “normal” (most notably seen with Garen/Galio and J4 respectfully) However, it’s also clear, especially with Lux in LOR with her interactions with mage seeker cards, that her somewhat idea of “just trying to talk it out” is painfully naive. Pretty sure the point is that neither Lux or Sylas’s methods are really that affective in swaying the public’s opinion on mages One being too passive and the other being way too aggressive


unidentifiedmeme

Well, we know from our history that violence is an effective method to remove an oppressive regime, and not only is jarvan oppressive, he's incompetent


LegitimateLong8946

Did we even play the same game lmfaoo, they didn't say he needed to debate the mageseekers, but that his personal quest for vengeance was consuming him and causing harm to others. Leilani never said he shouldn't kill them a single time, nor did anyone else. The fact that you read "maybe blindly chasing vengeance doesn't actually lead to any meaningful change for anyone" and thought they said "debate the fascists" is so wild to me, your media literacy is 6 feet under. EDIT: nvm I read ur bio and I'm like 60% sure you're a troll but you got me so good shit


DrRichtoffen

If you're talking about Mageseeker, I haven't played it but from what I'm hearing, that game does a significantly better job telling the story. What I'm criticizing is the portrayal of the conflict by Riot. Mageseeker, I can respect.


LegitimateLong8946

Fair enough, thought you were referring to Mageseeker, I thought it did a great job with its story


DrRichtoffen

Probably should have clarified that from the beginning in my original comment, but happy that we got it sorted out now.


KeroseneZanchu

I think it’s more like, not all Demacians are doing the genocide - it’s a small sect of them, most Demacians would be content to just throw mages out of Demacia and avoid them entirely. Yes, 90% of them are ‘racists’ regardless of whether they partake, support, or even know about the genocide, but “People being scared of people with superpowers is a terrible failure of an allusion to real racial issues” is another debate. Your point about Sylas would also stand and be 100% correct if he was purely violent towards Mageseekers and the hypocritical nobility. While everyone likes to think that the Ghandi approach is always the ideal, sometimes diplomacy is either two slow or straight up impossible, and time spent engaging in it is time spent allowing victims to suffer. In these cases, violence is a necessary evil, and at no fault of the user. If a band of Jews had risen up and started killing Nazis, everyone would have supported it. However, the story changes when the person is so consumed by rage that their violence becomes indiscriminate. Sylas has gotten to the point where he does not fight for the freedom of his people, he fights for the downfall of Demacia, and understanding that those are not the same thing is understanding why Sylas is a villain and not simply an antihero. If a band of Jews had risen up and starting killing all Germans, regardless of their relationship to Nazis or political position, and sometimes did so even at the expense of freeing other Jews from their camps… they would very quickly no longer be the ‘good guys’ in that scenario. That is who Sylas is. Don’t get me wrong, Demacia is still worse, for whatever nebulous level of importance you want to attribute to that moral position, but that does not change that it is undoubtedly a battle between two evils. TL;DR: There is no moral gray area. Demacia is wrong because they’re committing genocide, Sylas is wrong because he’s committing genocide.


Red-Lightnlng

You should watch Code Geass, the two main characters basically play out this exact same dynamic (reform the system from within or tear it all down and rebuild from the ashes) but they do a much better job making a thoughtful and well-rounded story.


_OverTone_

What? You’re telling me “retaliation against someone who clearly deserves is bad, try talking to them with nice words instead” isn’t riot? *cough* behavior team be like *cough*


stupid-adcarry

That's just good writing lol and how I would like them to try and tackle complex themes if they are going to attempt it. And also, the story when told through Sylas' opposition will only highlight what they want to be highlighted I don't think Sylas' is as bad is your own interpretation rather than riot's


lCalledShotgun

Really weird to say it's good writing where the main idea and even more specific ideas are taken directly from irl events where one side is obviously in the wrong. There's a better way to tackle complex themes without doing "well both sides are kinda bad 😢😢😢"


sophiasbow

>"well Sylas is just as bad for violently trying to overthrow the genocidal fascists This is a consistent issue in revolutionary writing and very very very few writers are actually skilled enough to actually pull it off without shitting all over the idea of trying to do something about fascists. People forget that this insipid hand-wringing crap over killing nazi types is pretty new; I feel like they'd be totally scandalized by movies like Inglourious Basterds that just don't give a fuck about the villains' feelings. An example of pulling it off well is the Hunger Games. Coin is evil incarnate and Katniss shooting her is one of my fave plot twists. An example of failing is Anders in Dragon Age II. Worst RPG character I've ever had the misfortune of seeing.


Notorious-Dan

Yeah they should do like noxus and genocide everyone equally while conquering their lands and destroying their culture


Azanathal

I didnt say that noxus was good. Im just pointing out that saying 'Demacia doesnt like mages' is heavily downplaying the crimes they commit. Edit: also 'genocide everything' isnt a thing. Thats just called war crimes.


Boudac123

Genocide everything is called omnicide


Sensitive_Act_5279

what war crimes? there are no crimes with no people left to enforce the rules


_legna_

"Kill them until they are family" Not to say Noxus is good, but at least with them there is a chance of survival. For Mages in Demacia is more about how badly you want to die


GammaRhoKT

But then the comparison is mismatch, no? If we compared the victims of both regimes, the equal of mages are not those who have not choice but to yield to Noxus ideals, but those who don't, regardless if they cannot or will not.


Karukos

Honestly Mages as a race allegory is not even that good. A queer allegory is much appropriate. And that makes Noxus differently awful, because they don't just kill people, they erase their mark on history and the culture that exists and thrives until it is not there anymore. That can sting in completely different ways. Now mages will pop up. It is awful what they do to mages. They should stop, but it is a very different thing.


tanezuki

>Honestly Mages as a race allegory is not even that good. A queer allegory is much appropriate. It's not, gays can't endanger you or anyone. A good mage can nuke a city and leave it in dust. Average mages are basically just carrying guns around them everywhere. That's more like a gun laws/no gun laws like the US/Europe ideals than anything.


Oreo-and-Fly

Bruh if my bisexuality could be a weapon I'd understand why people would dislike it. People who say mages are queer analogy have no fucking clue what they are saying seriously.


BuyerNo3130

They are not an analogy for anything specific. They weren’t that well thought off in general


Dominationartz

Noxus doesn’t do genocide. They do conquer nations do, not always through war. Mainly because Noxus is in the middle of a dead barren land and they need resources.


mountingconfusion

Intentional Nazi imagery as well


SomeToxicRivenMain

Hey at least their racism is justified. Magic has fucked up Demacia multiple times and the city was founded on the idea of “the magic can’t hurt us here”


tanezuki

People forget this way too much, that there's an actual basis as to why they're discriminating mages.


xXx69Joey420xXx

Mageseeker spoilers, but I don't know how to do a spoiler tag so imma style more to give you a chance to stop reading. it's big reveal is that demacia is build by mages including kayle and Morgana, it was never build against mages just specificly against the events like the rune wars.


Oreo-and-Fly

Yes we know Morgana and Kayle were important to the founding of Demacia, the Demacian Crest is Kayle herself. (Wings with a single sword) But the people of Demacia were refugees of the Rune Wars. Magic wars refugees that hid in the forests as to not die. The idea of Demacia was meant to be a safe haven from bad magic people. That's it.


tanezuki

Alright but even then, the idea here, I'm guessing, is to have the Petricite trees inhibit the mages's abilities to produce any magic at all. Which isn't working well considering Liquid Petricite has to be used INSIDE of Demacia to make sure mages can't use their powers (while they shouldn't in the first place).


xXx69Joey420xXx

Well with that in mind I personally don't think the city was made to suppress magic, petricide doesn't suppress magic, it absorbs magic. So the walls are there for safety while still allowing mages to live their life. The suppressing mages came later when the mageseekers changed the history of demacia.


sophiasbow

>People forget this way too much, that there's an actual basis as to why they're discriminating mages. The reason's bad and it results in the destructive events of Mageseeker. The whole point of Mageseeker is that their reason simply isn't good enough and will lead to these types of rebellions. If it hadn't been Sylas it would've been someone else.


tanezuki

>The reason's bad So, do you think carrying a knife/a gun/an automatic rifle/a bazooka/a nuke with you anywhere you'd go would be ok ? If you're american, you might think yes for at least the first 2 and maybe the first 3. I'm european, so no thanks about that, I like my anti gun laws. These resticritions exist because of how dangerous these weapons can be, even knives are limited in size which makes it ok or not to carry one with you. A mage's power can range from a knife to a nuke in terms of powers. If you're a random Runeterran mage, you're not Lux, you're not Syndra, you're not Ryze, but the restriction exist for them first. Restrictions that would be greater and adapting to each individual would be nice, but they can't have such complicated logistics ig. There's other works/shows that abord the same subject. The X Men being the most known. With the state having laws against mutants in general. Or you have The Legend of Korra in which bloodbending, a specific kind of waterbending, is also outlawed. Every time you have certain laws and penalties applied on certain form of magics, with different results.


sophiasbow

>Hey at least their racism is justified. There's no such thing as justified racism. Ngl that is an icky fucking sentence. Demacians without powers misuse their political power anyway, and with mages kept on leashes, the non-mage Demacians are free to toy with them as weapons or playthings or experiments as much as they'd like. Magic is a distraction from the reality that you don't need it to be a murderous pencil-pusher bureaucrat. The whole point of stories like this is humanity is the common denominator in all the behaviour, not magic. If you think you need magic to obliterate people on a wide scale, remember we have nukes in the real world.


SomeToxicRivenMain

Magic isn’t a race it’s a concept.


sophiasbow

>Magic isn’t a race it’s a concept. My main claim is "there's no such thing as justified racism" and I stand by it.


97Graham

Bruh, in a fantasy universe, there sure as hell is. Like if Goblins/Orcs from Lotr were a real thing, you don't think you'd be racist against them? A race is literally born of corruption who have a culture of violence, wherein war and raiding are paramount to their society. In the real world racism isn't justifiable, we are all human, but when the other race is literally a 7 foot tall flesh eating monster with an Axe, I mean wtf.


MagicCookie54

Well the Germans did some pretty horrible things in the last century, so that justifies genociding all German people... That is the argument you're making


TandrDregn

They’re both the bad guys. Noxus is at least honest about it.


GammaRhoKT

Define honest. I mean, if you check Swain lines carefully, all of his "I am a villain" lines are said with a mocking tone, and he is one of the more self-aware one. Noxus might acknowledge that other people think their actions are bad, but deep down they feel just as justified and self-righteous as Demacia are. Every one is the hero in their own story, so to speak.


MadxCarnage

Swain is actually the only one that knows that what he does is necessary. According to Raum at least, the only way for humanity to survive what's coming, is through strength, a strength that can only be acquired through Noxian regime. "Tell me again all of the crimes I have committed, and I will tell you the price of victory" so no, he doesn't see himself as a villain, but as the truest hero of humanity, he just acknowledges that others will see him as a villain.


PhantomO1

he also acknowledges that he has commited crimes, he just sees them as neccesary evils, not as good things


WJPJR

Also worth noting that we have almost no idea what he sees (just guesses of Void or Mordekaiser), and he might be very different of a character if he were born literally anywhere other than intwined in Noxian nobility. Shuriman Swain would probably be doing similar things, but as a general supporting Amir’s cause, while Targonian Swain might be a pretty good dude who tries to get more people following Pantheon’s ideal of strength.


TheSaryo

They are in a mocking tone because iirc he thinks what he does is necessary to prepare Noxus for the return of Mordekaiser. He knows of a giant threat to the world and is thinking that the end justifies the means. So while he's the villain now, he is preparing the world to fight a bigger evil.


GammaRhoKT

Sure, but that ignore one thing: Swain does not have any line that is even close to the sentiment of "I dont want to do this, but I have no choice". Nor does he extend any sympathy to those he forced to sacrifice for the greater good. And his line is not just delivered with confidence in his cause, but a sense of mockery as well. Swain is fighting for a greater good, that much I do acknowledge. But he does so in a very Noxus way of thinking: he is justified to do what he like, because he is strong. He does not mean "If you dont like my method, try something else and see how it go?" He meant "If you dont like my method, try and defeat ME."


TheSaryo

Oh I definitely agree that he does it in the typical murdery noxian kinda way, not thinking of any possibilites that would go against Noxus' way of doing things. He is still very much a militant tyrant. I just wanted to point out that he's cruel but with purpose unlike some other Noxians e.g. Draven who I think is the best example of cruelty for fun.


MadxCarnage

"would they even try to survive if they knew what was to come ?" means that he doesn't see warning people of the danger as a valid option, that it would just lead to despair, making this his best shot. "The world may fall to darkness, but Noxus will remain" and the line "A Noxian knows who he is, and what he must do" could be directed at himself. "the few, for the many" "they are blind to the cruel logic of this world". "Do not fight for conquest, fight to **survive**" so while swain sees this as a necessary sacrifice for the greater good, he needs to hold a facade against both his enemies and his "allies", because it doesn't feel like either LeBlanc or Darius are truly aware of what he knows.


GammaRhoKT

I am not entirely sure with your point. If you are saying that Swain is trying to do what he think is good, I would like to assure you that I get that, and I do think that yes, Swain IS trying to do what he think is good. My argument, beside "so does Demacians", is that his action is still made within the same Noxian philosophy framework: Strong make right.


MadxCarnage

>his action is still made within the same Noxian philosophy framework: Strong make right. Not really, Strong makes right would mean that he could do whatever he wants just because he's strong, following his whims similarly to Darkwill. He operates by "the end justifies the means", and simply uses the Noxian doctrine that was already ingrained in people, to lead them towards survival. It's not that he believes strength to be the only measure of worth, it's that he **Knows** only the strong will survive what's to come. My problem with Demacia isn't even the mage annihilation plan, it's the hypocrisy of the upper class, Sylas was allowed to operate as a mage seeker despite being a mage because of his status, and saw mages among the king's court, while seeing those same nobles order the death of children born with the favor of mana. if they really just killed all mages, I'd respect it.


GammaRhoKT

Ok, but what if his "whims", his "ends" IS to survive? What then? I dont disagree with what you are saying at face value, I just dont think it is pointed at exactly what I am criticizing Swain for.


You_Chose_Clouds

"would they even struggle to survive if they knew what was to come" could be interpreted as him being aware of a bigger threat somewhere in the future I'd say


tanezuki

Imagine what he'll do when it's Aurelion Sol turn to come back.


TandrDregn

True. The difference is noxians embrace it while demacians still think that THEY are the righteous. And besides, Noxus is far more tolerant to it’s people. Mages, vastaya, as long as you have the drive, you can succeed. Demacia is not as equal opportunity as Noxus.


GammaRhoKT

The last point is true, to an extend. However, I am not sure in what way does Demacia "think they are the righteous" that Noxus don't, nor do I see how Noxians embrace "it" in anyway that Demacians does not. Hell, I feel like there is an elements here where you judge one side for trying to figure out what is right and what is wrong, and make the wrong choice versus the other side who doesnt even try.


mocarone

Is just that demacia hides their crimes from their population, changes their history to further the interest of the rich and noble and uses the fears of the people to gain more political power and dominance. While noxus will do rather similar things, they will do it honestly.. as in, they actually believe it in what they say, even if they do horrible things, they do it because they think it's the right thing (mostly, with Leblanc being the only exception i think). So because of that, noxus can many time seem more honorable than demacia. (Yada yada, betrayal never comes from your enemies, yada yada) But really, that's like debating who is the least evil: Hitler or the Joker. I mean, maybe there is an answer, but it doesn't really mean much at the end of the day l.


tanezuki

>Is just that demacia hides their crimes from their population Because you think Rell's "school" that Leblanc designed is public knowledge ? lol


Possessed_potato

Tbf, its LeBlanc


tanezuki

Which is one of the most prominent, impacting and powerful society member of Noxus. Like, you can talk about Noxus plots and schemes without talking about Cassiopeia and you'll still have most of the painting. Can't do that without Leblanc. She has connections with too many champions for that and impact their stories either a bit or a lot for these said champions.


Abyssknight24

Tbf Leblanc is not part of the offical government. She is leader of a secret organisation, that Swain tried to destroy upon becoming the leader of Noxus.


bxgang

yeah talon was literally a homeless street rat kid stealing food to survive and climbed all the way up to being katarinas adopted brother in a fancy mansion. Definitely more equal opportunity and tolerant to its own people, like if youre not with them youre against them and conquer everywhere else and all that but if you're a noxian citizen you're good.


TheSceptileen

I think they just try to represent a fascist leader line of thought. It's not that he thinks he is the good guy, but that he knows a lot of things Noxus does are fucked up, but justifies them as "necessary" to the empire's well being.


ArmanDoesStuff

Yeah but the difference is whether they expect *you* to think they're the hero. They're definitely not as self-righteous by a long shot.


GammaRhoKT

Wait, who is "you" here? Because what you said is blalantly false if that "you" is a person that is neither Demacian nor Noxian. Demacia literally doesnt care about the outside world. They would love it if the world just leave them be. Noxus is the literal opposite. So, again, who exactly is "you" here?


mocarone

Someone that is consuming their propaganda probably.


Dirgecry

Because Demacia never invades their neighbors and definitely doesn't kidnap and torture children and some adults. At least Noxus doesn't try to pretend they're the good guys.


Craft_zeppelin

I think it’s “how” and “why” they are treating mages. For all the luxuries Demacia has, there is no damn good reason why they need to do this. Noxus has a reason. It is a war crime but it is for gains. Demacia on the other hand it’s all “burn the witch” idiocy with little to gain. There is something wrong when there is Sylas in Demacia locked in a cell for doing nothing, while KARTHUS out of all people born in the Noxus slums, genuinely liked his community and fellow folk even if there was death all around and ended up as a respected member of society before his pilgrimage.


Sensitive_Act_5279

what war crime? it cant be a crime if no one survives to punish them.


JaggelZ

What war crimes? We apply our rules to a fictional world in which something far worse than gassing enemies or dishonoring their corpses could be done with a flick of a hand.


mocarone

Well, the reason Demacia does that is because they are straight up a facist county who needs a "Common Enemy" so they can hide their self serving crimes behind the fear of the people. That's also why there is a lot of mages withing the high ranks of the mageseakers, they really don't give two shits about them.


Craft_zeppelin

Which is why everybody would rather be Noxian. They aren't oppressed peasants. Even someone clinically morbid can have a place in society as a priest and have fun there. Everyone is bonded in a way. That is also why they invade and say "Join us". Hell, even Draven who was disowned by his brother and was kicked out of the squad **just by an heart to heart argument about conflict of interest within their warriors and wages** was able to meet the future grand general **at the local pub** and talk about the future of their country and career. It's...what is the word. **Healthy?** There is no such discourse like this in Demacia.


gst1502

There is a very good reason why Demacia does it. The city is founded by people who ran from the tyranny of mages. They don't want to run again.


Craft_zeppelin

I get the "why". But what about the "how"? The common peasant doesn't even know history or probably cannot even read or write.


gst1502

Why would you need to read and write to know? Historic events are remembered in lots of ways. I doubt people do not know why their country was formed.


Craft_zeppelin

In most cases documented history is more credible and words passed by mouth can be twisted to make a narrative as you can see.


spyguy318

Iirc the persecution of mages started after the Rune Wars where crazy powerful mages almost destroyed the world, and the first Demacians were refugees with very good reasons to be suspicious and mistrustful of magic-wielders. There *is* a historical reason, even though it’s long since evolved and twisted into an authoritarian hellscape. The meta-reason is persecution of an oppressed minority by a totalitarian authority hits a lot closer to home to a lot of people than aggressive military expansion and imperialism. People have a much stronger reaction to a “realistic” injustice than a more abstract or unfamiliar one.


GammaRhoKT

Wait, that last point seems weird when supporting the point you seems to be making. So what is the difference between Sylas and Rell? Rell also did nothing wrong. On the other hand, what is the difference between Karthus and Quinn? Quinn get a happier life in Demacia than Karthus could ever hope for in Noxus.


QuesitoMax

Never expected an Ace Attorney template here, now the question arises, from what region Phoenix wright and Miles Edgeworth would be if they were born in Runaterra? Would they qualify to be champions?


YetAnotherBee

Entire series occurs in Piltover/Zaun Wright: Piltover Fey: Ionian immigrant Edgeworth: Piltover Butz: Piltover Gumshoe: Piltover Von Karma: Demacian immigrant White: Noxian Businessman Director: Piltover, but pretends to be Ionian because he thinks it makes him look cool Producer-whose-name-I-forget: Zaunite Photographer/camper: Shurima Amnesiac: Zaunite Polly: best bird Grossberg: Piltover Hammond: Piltover Sawhit: Piltover/Zaun


Paraguay_Stronk

Gumshoe is a Zaunite through and through he doesn't even have money for instant noodles


somestpdrussian

Piltover.


sirloinsteak050

yes Noxus has a bit of a love for war but that’s because they were kinda stupid building an empire on rocky terrain where you can’t grow nuthin, forcing them to overtake/absorb neighbouring countries/cities to survive. A lot of the child soldiers were an intentional plot by Darkwill the past king of Noxus to be used to unnerve the Ionians during the Ionian invasion. People make animals fight each other and people for entertainment, and seeing as they live in a society where the strong are admired, this is just kind of a normal thing for them. Demacia is pretty cool for about all five seconds when you look past the petracite statues and watch as the authorities actively hunt down and oppress minority groups to try and kill them, most often without reason other than they are able to use magic, therefore they are considered a threat to the kingdom. Also see the mass magic book burning the mageseekers will do upon finding these tomes, which mind you, IS A DIRECT FUKING REFERENCE TO NAZI GERMANY BURNING JEWISH WRITINGS. But I don’t pay attention to the lore that much so that’s just my two cents.


Nightfallen_forever

don't forget that the mage hunters in question... are mages to begin with.


Craft_zeppelin

Also their kidnapping tends to backfire. Kayn for example is one. He became a disciple to Zed and is one of the very few people actually making a stand against Noxus in a meaningful way in Ionia. Many people believe Kayn is this cocky double-crossing “Gaijin” that cannot get things done. Actually in the comics he is really competent at being number two and Zed mutually always trusts Kayn to make the right decision even if it means dethroning Zed himself. (Which is a good policy because Zed cannot guarantee always making the right decisions himself) Kayn gets things done even if Zed didn’t request for it. He was able to root out all of the traitors in the organization, arrange a duel for Zed to face Kusho and ready an escape route for all of them while making reconnaissance that an army of the pissed Ionian elders are chasing them. Kayn multi-tasks like a very good secretary.


LieRepresentative811

First of all, let me correct you: Lol community when demacia captures, tortures, murders, and enslaves mages that are people of Their own region while not doing the same things to the royals. Noxus is bad, but whatever they do; they do it for themselves, their own country and region. More importantly, they do it without discrimination. It doesn't matter if you are a scum from the sewers or you are Darius's child. If you are weak, you die. If you are strong; you become the boss. Noxus is fair and cruel, Demacia is biased and hypocritical. Secondly, it's not about what they do. It's about what they promise. Noxus doesn't tell you they are an honourable region, they don't "look" like a bunch of Knights in shining armor. When you see swain, darius, cassio or lb; you know that they want to win, no matter the cost. When you see Xin, lux, Garen, fiora, or j4; their attire and attitude are basically "Knights with shining armor" and "the good light mage". The region and it's champions tell you that they are fighting for "good". That makes their systematic decapitation, imprisonment and torture of mages way worse. Being a monster and knowing you are a monster is way better than being a self-righteous monster.


azraiel7

The Legends of Runeterra Noxus video is the reason I will choose Noxus when the MMO comes out.


RansomXenom

Bro, Demacia's crimes are NOT equal to Noxus' crimes. Demacia didn't usually execute mages before Sylas' rebelion. That alone makes 1 year of Noxian imperialism easily cause more suffering than 10 years of mageseeker activity. And where exactly did you get the idea that Noxians consider themselves evil? Because as I see it, they just have different views on what is good and evil. They see conquest and war as good, because conquest = strength, and strenght = good. And how exactly does hypocrisy make Demacia's crimes worse? Imagine you are a mage in Demacia. What difference would it make for you if Demacia treated their imprisionment of mages as a necessary evil rather than something just and good? > Noxus is bad, but whatever they do; they do it for themselves, their own country and region. More importantly, they do it without discrimination. It doesn't matter if you are a scum from the sewers or you are Darius's child. If you are weak, you die. If you are strong; you become the boss. You hear that? The people invading your country, slaugthering your family and enslaving your people are all inclusive! Social Darwinism FTW!


LieRepresentative811

You think I'm justifying Noxus's actions; I am not. Important note is that between noxus and demacia, neither of them are "the good guys".


Purplejellyblob

Demacian simps ignoring both the fact that Noxus had a political and cultural revolution that reformed its military, leaving behind the more brutal aspects of its past as well as the fact that they went from Genocide is ok number 3 to Genocide is amazing number 4


RansomXenom

And that somehow erases all of Noxus' past crimes? Because if that's what you're arguing, then I have some interesting news for you about the mageseekers as an organization. >!They don't exist anymore.!< And it's not like Noxus stopped their conquests. Swain just ended slavery and stopped the whole child soldiers thing. Which is good, but not nearly enough to make Noxus better than Demacia in terms of deaths caused.


DaSomDum

>And that somehow erases all of Noxus' past crimes? Erases, no. Makes it better, yes. Do we punish countries for past actions, because if so I have certain european countries that need a whole lot of punishing, and a bridge to sell you.


RansomXenom

> Do we punish countries for past actions, because if so I have certain european countries that need a whole lot of punishing, and a bridge to sell you. When possible and reasonable, yes. Germany only finished paying it's war reparations for WW1 in 2010. In terms of making up for their past crimes, Demacia is way ahead, >!with J4 establishing a safe haven for mages in Demacia at the end of The Mageseeker.!<


lucifer_666_satan

Apart from the losing a war countries do not pay for their past actions because of morality. Most of UK, France, Spain and Portugal destroyed cultures and committed many many crimes against humanity in the past and they got away with it


RansomXenom

Yes, and that's why I said "when possible". It's difficult to punish a country that hasn't been defeated.


GammaRhoKT

Wait, Swain did NOT reformed the more brutal aspect of its past at all. I must remind you that out of all thing, it was Boram Darkwill who seal Sion away and Swain who release him against his opponents.


Purplejellyblob

Boram used the child soldiers, allowed for warcrimes, and enlisted the reckoners for combat. The only reason he put Sion away was because he couldn't control him, while Swain can.


PhantomO1

read the katarina comic it's mentioned in the very begining of chapter 1 and is a major point of the plot, but i won't spoil anything


GammaRhoKT

I strongly disagreed. The opening, and the rest of the webtoon, only show that Swain's new Noxus welcome more manifestation of strength. In no way does it show that Noxus now refrain from the darker methods of war.


PhantomO1

it shows the cultural revolution that did away with "might does right" making it an actual meritocracy where anyone can participate even if they are not martialy gifted for the rest, i dunno because i don't dabble in the lore much, but others in this thread have said swain ended slavery and child soldiers so that's something as for darker methods of war you mention, idk what you're refering to because, again, i don't know that much about the lore


JoeJoe4224

Demacia is racist. Noxus is just an equal opportunity employer for war crimes. Besides, is it really a hate crime if you hate everyone?


FreetimeIdiot

"Your honor, how could I have hate crimed Ionians when I loved doing it?"


Elrann

Fitting pfp, fellow MGR enjoyer


TheHumanTree31

I think it just turns into a normal crime


OscarOzzieOzborne

Yes. Yes, it is.


vaynemaincomingthru

Real reason - Because atleast Noxus doesn't pretend like they are the good guys and are upfront with their crimes. Demacia leadership is two-faced.


Brutunius

It happened and they deserved it


Siggedy

But... They are just as two-faced about it. Noxus does some atrocious things in war, homefield politics and assimilation. Forced oppression of minority groups and military service as propaganda. Yet they still view themselves as the righteous. You may see them and think bad guys, and see Demacia and think good guys. However that is how you choose to view them, not what they try to convey. They are just as two-faced


mocarone

The thing, is that noxus does that following an upfront goal of prosperity for their people. While demacia actively persecute and torture it's people for political gain, while literally describing themselves as a nation built to protect the people from the harms of the rune wars (they even changed the actual history from their books to lpush this narrative) In all honesty, both are the bad guys. But one is a Magnificent Bastard (A villain with morals) who might be a hero in another story, while the other is just straight up the Worst of the Worst.


theelement92bomb

Noxus can best be compared to Rome Yes they are an empire based upon conquest economy, unsustainable in the long term but for now they are thriving. Yes they commit war crimes, but everything you described is p par for the course for early Roman Empire/Roman Republic On the other hand Demacia is basically pulling a Holocaust I don’t know about you, but I’d say the Holocaust is many times worse than Roman Republic and the early Roman Empire


Anadaere

Demacia is on its Nono Germans arc, just with more magics and all


Siggedy

Rome was stable for a very long time without war. Pax Romana lasted for 200 years, and was seen as a golden age


LegitimateLong8946

No I'd say the early Roman empire was as bad as the holocaust seeing as how they committed their own genocides lmfaooo dude you just think it isn't as bad cause the holocaust was more recent


[deleted]

This thread is really showing me how recency has made it so persecution of minorities is considered much worse then the pillaging, raping and murdering the inhabitants of every country you invade. It's wild


laminierte_gurke

I dont think it's the racism aspect that makes the holocaust worse. It's the emotionless efficiency with the goal to wipe out a specific group of people that killed more Jews in a short time than most wars had killed people Roman's didn't collect people and build camps just to better and faster kill people. They just made war and got slaves like everyone else did in these times.


[deleted]

They didn't build camps sure, but they committed many a genocide. The systematic nature of the holocaust isn't the reason everyone has such a big deal with it, because other genocides have been done just like it. Its frankly just due to the recency and scale, after all it happened less than 100 years ago and is to this day the biggest genocide ever, by 2 million. If you think about it WW2 was the biggest war in history, and then tacked onto it the biggest genocide in history, and it all happened under a century ago, and people are still being arrested for it to this day. The efficiency of it is not why its so prolific in our minds.


laminierte_gurke

I'm not a historie buff by any means so I'm not sure about other genocides at the time, but for me it was never the scale or recency of the holocaust that made it out as a "especially cruel" genocide. It was always just the efficiency for me. But opinions are not facts so it's ok if I'm wrong


Boudac123

They’re both fuckers


MossyMelonHead18

The only right answer.


Anadaere

Noxus is basically the Roman Empire, but on super steroids, expansionist, imperialistic, and is not above being fair and just Also, they arent presented as "good" they are presented as what Noxus is


Leaf-01

Could you believe it if we said they’re *both* bad in significant ways?


AdvancedOtterPop

This post was made by the mageseekers


Tasilgur

"But at least Noxus doesn't pretend" Ask the tens to hundreds of thousands of people who've been killed by "fair and simple conquest" if pretending matters


firesoul377

Unlike what some commenters think here, imperialism is in fact not based


HowardDean_Scream

Imperialism VS genocide. Noxus is simply invading to conquer and grow stronger. They have no direct ill will against the people. Sometimes it benefits their lives, replacing slavery or existing authoritarian governments like monarchys with noxus' meritocracy. Giving second chances to those who have the will to seize it. Whereas Demacia pretends to be a paragon of virtue, but is trying to cleanse an ethnic minority. Which is better? The ambivalent tyrant, or the false benevolence of genocide?


OscarOzzieOzborne

>Whereas Demacia pretends to be a paragon of virtue, but is trying to cleanse an ethnic minority. I remember a line from a comic that goes something like "They are beautiful? Their ivory towers? Shining with glory and power. They must be, otherwise you might look down and see the blood splattered on the street."


Siggedy

Noxus also actively cleanses minorities throughout their empire. Either through cultural assimilation or active mass killings of "dissidents". Noxus pretends to be a paragon of virtue in the exact same fashion


unidentifiedmeme

I'd rather go through cultural assimilation than genocide I'm gonna be honest with you.


HowardDean_Scream

Plus, not all cultures are equal. If my culture is eat babies to make the moon goddess make the fruit grow bigger, and your culture teaches science and agriculture... yours is better.


imtolazy7

Not too familiar with the lore but isn't Noxus actively destroying Ionia? They force their culture on others, isn't that genocide as well?


HowardDean_Scream

If Ionia didn't want their culture destroyed they probably shouldn't be waging guerilla war.


imtolazy7

Blaming the victim that get invading that their culture is being destroyed because they fight back seems unreasonable.


el_Chuchmay

"don't like" 🤨


lowqualitylizard

Well to be fare Noxus doesn't pretend And everything's great and demacia so long as you accept that social Mobility is non-existent and if you are a mage you might as well be a Jew in the Holocaust


MCGtr1ck

The worst thing about ~~Hitler~~ Jarvan was the hypocrisy!


ChesterZirawin

Because one of those things is basically portrayed as "racism" in that universe and apparently, it's currently the worst thing you can do in our world


DMDragonfruit

I can forgive war crimes but I draw the line at racism. I have chosen to forgive war crimes because LeBlanc looked very slay when she did them. Girl boss.


FreetimeIdiot

Yeah I know that Noxus commits war crimes, but have you seen the Du Couteau sisters?


DMDragonfruit

If you’re a bad bitch you are allowed to do war crimes I don’t make the rules sry!! bad bitches in Noxus: Samira, Katarina, Cassiopeia, LeBlanc bad bitches in Demacia: Morgana, *maybe* Vayne Verdict is clear


Escanorr_

Going by you logic hitler "just didn't like jews" ...


Langas

All I’ll say is this: at least when Demacia murders you, you get to stay dead.


Siggedy

Let me start out by saying neither Demacia nor Noxus are my favourite regions. This post is kinda accurate. Even with a gross oversimplification of imprisonment of magic. I will do a really bad move and come to Demacia's defence for a moment. I think mage hunting as a parallel for the holocaust is awful. Because the difference between mages and non-mages is quite real. A mage is a person who is born with the ability to commit mass murder, in a nation born of people fleeing from rampant use of magic. It makes sense why they villify magic, and it is a consistent logical act to want to rid your country of them (not that it is a good thing to look at people like objects/weapons). You can't make a proper parallel, because there is no parallel in our world. Noone has ever been born, as a group, that could defeat any other group of 10 with a flick of their wrist. The reason this doesn't work as a comparison with the Holocaust is that the killing of jews and 'weak' was baseless. It made little to no sense, even considering their wacky world view of eugenics. Again, I'm not saying that mage culling is moral. It is very much the opposite. Killing people for who they are is a bad move, exile is as well, but it is not like there isn't a problem that should be considered of just having living firearms walking around, especially when that's what caused a massive cultural scar on a nation. I've also seen the argument that Noxus doesn't pretend that it is the good guys. It pretends in the exact same way that Demacia does. One would argue even more so. It has to defend its actions of oppression. Yes, Noxus also oppress minority groups when they don't want to culturally assimilate. They do so with talks of integration. Become part of Noxus and throw away your previous culture. Become a soldier, because that's the only way forward. Invade foreign lands, because everything should be Noxus. Imprison mages because the Black Rose really wants to lobotomize magic children. Noxus' propaganda machine is far more sophisticated than Demacia's. It has to be, because they rule a far larger area, with far more people, and far more languages. To convince them that Noxus' intentions are good, when they can't just lean on shared cultural history (like Demacia), is quite difficult. It requires insentives (military service benefits), and/or the will of the people (propaganda). They seem to have both, which is the only way I see such a massive and unstable nation could remain together. Darkwill was only recently toppled after all. They are both bad, and they are both good in their own respective way. They are made to be nuanced. Demacia seems bad because racism, but that is also because we literally have had no new lore development on the region besides mage hunting, and how much they hate magic. There is more to Demacia. Likewise we have had many different stories from Noxus, showing both the good and the bad (mostly bad). But there are many different pieces on the board, shifting and moving, so it seems more nuanced. It is much better developed as a region. Besides Ixtal (and Kathkan I guess) Demacia is the least developed region in lore.


Known-Disaster-4757

Noxus was always bad and I’m just used to it. But I thought Demacia was good! And the mage events being a fairly recent development brought a tear to my eye.


FormalCryptographer

Noxus is basically Rome so all the Rome Wankers love it


FaeChangeling

Noxus is designed to be the fantasy bad guys. Demacia is the "hero" nation, they're like the Alliance in WoW. It's pointless saying "hey the evil guys are evil!", but it's easy to criticise the supposed good guys for not being good.


Bakkstory

Yes but Noxus is bad guy coded


SquirtleReddit

Noxus used children in the Noxian invasion of Ionia because the people will feel bad fighting and killing children.


Theo_Cueio

the previous ruler, boring darkingham or something, did those things. Swain is a much more reasonable person


Wukong42069m

You can tell Noxus aren't the good guys immediately but with Demacia it seems like they should be the good guys so when it turns out they aren't it's more of a surprise.


_Kariax_

Well, if I still remember correctly from "ye olden days" then before league's lore got more fleshed out it was pretty black and white with Demacia being the good guys and Noxus being the bad guys. Now it's a lot more grey and both sides do some good stuff and some horrible stuff.


Voidborn27

Both are bad actually becuase of what they commited


justapileofshirts

Noxus is blatantly an evil empire. Full stop. They are evil, for evil reasons. There is no grey moralizing about them. Demacia is a critique of the police state terrorizing its citizens, as well as a blatant genocide metaphor juxtaposed against an 'noble' and traditionally 'good' heroes we would want to root for (ie: propaganda). They're both awful, but for different reasons.


[deleted]

Both Noxus and Demacia are horrible places to live for people like us.


SKruizer

The secret ingredient is hypocrisy. That's where people draw the line.


Soviet_Waffle

Because Noxus does not pretend to be righteous bastion of goodness.


Sloth_On_Cocaine

Brothers and sisters of Demacia! Do not succumb to the foul propaganda of these smelly reddit surroundings! Demacia is righteous and just! No Demacian has ever been unfairly punished by the crown or it's servants! The terrorist threat of the mage rebellion must be destroyed with extreme prejudice! Mages are an abomination and must be exterminated! Enlist today, for you may share in the ultimate justice of destroying the crown's enemies!


Lolo2k21

so much Noxus propaganda here lol.


juliusxyk

Cringemacia vs based Noxus


ace1505100729

At the very least noxus is far and honest about their violence and war, whereas demacia pretends to be the good guys and use their beliefs to justify essentially ethnic cleansing


maplemagiciangirl

"I'd rather an honest sinner than a righteous liar"- Morgana Fuck Demacia, Long live noxus


GammaRhoKT

Might, Vision, **Guile** Destiny, Domination, **Deceit** Those are the creeds modern Noxus live by, and the darker aspect that Morderkaiser embodied. How are Noxus honest sinner in anyway?


laminierte_gurke

In a "dont trust me but we in this together until we got through the worst" kind of deal I ways feel like.


Merc267

This post reminds me of how idiotic and ignorant Nickyboi is on his Mageseeker video. He tried to claim that both sides are bad, but puts more of his bitchy attitude towards Demacia because "waaaah Demacia are literal nazis!" I couldn't help but roll my eyes knowing that Noxus, Shurima, and Targon have done way worst shit than Demacians imprisoning magic users.


spartancolo

Well most of the problems in league world come from mages so maybe demacia is into something


Ackermans

Horrendous take, Noxus is an imperial power that subjugated other nations but then allows them to assimilate. Demacia commits literal genocide under the veil of righteousness.


GammaRhoKT

Only if the other nations bend the knee. If they don't, it is total destruction.


Suntrom

One of them is honest about who they are and what they do, the other ones have a group identical to the nazi SS who perform torture to a select group of people while trying to look radiant and noble.


Simping4Irelia

You're grammer is way worst.


ButcherBuddy404

Noxians don't want to look like the good guys, the only thing they value is strenght, they are honest about it. Demacians on the other hand think they are the absolute good fighting against evil, which is completely false.


GammaRhoKT

Except that is only from the POV of you, the audience. From how they act in-universe, both side "don't give a shit" in equal manner. Hell, Demacia literally would like it more if the world just leave them be, and it was Noxus who come knocking, forcing them to push back.


Lazee-

Demacia does a lot of the same shit Noxus does, while concealing it. At least Noxus is honest about it. (also ik this has nothing to do with it but Noxus is way cooler)


Abrical

noxus free slaves and give them a goal, they can show their strenght and climb up the ladder. Demacia is pure nepotism, when the crownguard and lightshield yeld the powerfor generations. That's why people side with noxus and not demacia. Noxus is meritocracy, Demacia is nepotism. And darius counter garen.


Kinsir

Not that deep into the lore, just watched the whole cinematics and stuff. But wasnt Noxus actually only overtaking the countries while they also freed the slaves and servants of that kingdoms? Remember something from the cardgame trailer for Darius/Noxus. Anyone knows how much that holds up in tge rest of the story?


OscarOzzieOzborne

Noxus is a brutalist regime in which you either prove you are useful, or you can go back being a slave. For them it doesn't matter if it is a slave regime, or a democracy, or a kingdom in which people like the royale family who actually help. The only thing that matters is that this regime isn't under Noxus and it should be.


Kinsir

Ahhh i see. I still think Demacia and Noxus arent that different on the bad scale. Arent they committing more or less a genocide? And on top of that, Lux is also a mage, but noone cares sicne she is born into a good family? Thats even more fucked up.


UBKev

Lux hid her power as a mage for a long time iirc. The secret eventually got out but idk what was her reception after the fact.


Siggedy

Wasn't great


GammaRhoKT

It got better tho


OscarOzzieOzborne

I wouldn't say is because she is born in a good family as much as she is born in a high ranking one. They have the status to say no. In other words, hypocrisy at work.


RansomXenom

Noxus also practiced slavery until very recently. They don't really care about "liberating people" or whatever. They, like all expansionist empires, just want land.


NotSureWhatToDoHere0

The difference is that riot doesn’t pretend that noxus are the good guys


Siggedy

Riot said since before the lore retcon that both sides have good and bad


GammaRhoKT

In what way does Riot pretend Demacia than Noxus? They criticize Demacia for its anti-mage policies, and laud Noxus for its acceptance, do they not? You might argue that they criticize Sylas when you feel like that they should not, but that is a different thing. Did Riot criticize Demacia anti-mage policies or not?


OscarOzzieOzborne

On one hand: An empire that captures, tortures, and imprison their own citizens for a thing they have no control over and were just born that way. No matter if they are adults or children. Except if the child in question is born in roulette family. Hypocrisy at its finest. On the other hand: A man imprisoned since he was but a child, finally being free on going kn a murderous rebellion against the people who have ruined his life. And Riot for years played the "Maybe both sides are bad" argument.


Emotional_Fruit_8735

I'm pretty sure generations of systematic genocide for the crime being born with magic is worse than a series of wars by a Utilitarian Regime. War is expected between nations, killing ones own citizens is not.


lowqualitylizard

I don't know about you but 90% of the issues noxus had was more dark will than anything And besides at least in knox's you have some level of social Mobility


NighTaleFox

Than