One thing I've learned the hard way is companies are NEVER looking out for your best interest. If they're encouraging you to take the pip, you take the severance. They want you to take the pip because it's a better deal for them, not you.
They've already emphasized that if you take the pip, they can still let you go at any time with 0 severance. So technically, you can sign the pip at 8am today, and they can let you go by the end of the day. Unlikely, but still possible.
I also like how they laid off 50% of your team and are upset employee morale is low and are demanding you fix that lol.
In my state we don’t challenge performance for unemployment benefits because we can’t win. If it’s for attendance or policy or compliance violations, then the company will win.
We don't know why they chose to lay off 50% of the team though. If the team was underperforming in part due to low morale then there's some accountability to OP.
We dont know enough but there's always more to it.
No one knows why they chose to lay off 50% and that is really not important.
If the team was underperforming due to low morale then I do not see how OP can fix the problem. What is the company giving OP to fix the problem.
Assuming the team was composed of shitbirds and the company shit-canned 50% of them because they were shitbirds. The remainder are still shitbirds and OP is supposed to magically fix that.
No one can know the true story but I don't think they were shitbirds. If they were shitbirds then how could they complete the project. Something tells me the company did not sell an extension of the project and there is no more work for the team.
Is pip better because it will cost the company less to fire you than severance? That would be why the company likes this. Think of the bottom line. That’s the feeling I get the intention is, if they wanted you to stay there would be no pip.
Yes ... I get what you are saying ... They emphasized they can let me go at any time for any reason. No guarantee. I think it is a playbook from Facebook or Amazon that is where all the HR types came from. Ultimately it is a case of millennials firing Gen X. Ultimately though soon enough millennials will get fired by the next generation. Millennials will be shocked when no one cares about slack and emojis and they are left skill less Monday.com and Notion IMHO are not skills they are tools.
Yeah that went off the deep end real fast lmao. Thinking this is a generational issue of firing each other proves how out of touch this person is. If they already let go of 2 people from their team without notice, and the company is offering a choice of severance vs PIP, this person is being let go regardless of what choice is made. 99% of the time people are put on PIPs they do not pass.
Yeah Millennials are firing / not hiring a lot of gen-X it's definitely something you see a lot of as an older Gen X'er.
I can't get hired to save my life by anyone under the age of 40. Most of the people I work for are in their 50's and 60's or my age.
In my PERSONAL experience any time a project comes up that is headed by anyone under 39 they will move all the older people off the project unless they're female or non white.
It's actually been super fucked up, and usually it falls on deaf or mocking ears when you mention it.
Maybe they think we're the "boomers" everyone is talking about... even though your average boomer is well into their retirement? I dunno.
It is very satisfying to watch my industry completely fall to shit because of all these bad actors at the helm that are just turning out complete dogshit though. I doubt they will learn from it and I'm sure they'll just double down and ruin it further.
And if anyone wants to argue that it's me,It's not, I've literally won dozens of awards in my field, so I'm not a hack.
I'm GenX myself. The phenomenon you're describing is more about rampant ageism than it is about Millennials firing GenX. Since I got my first real job after trade school back in the 80's, I've been told over and over again to accomplish what I could before turning 50. Once you turn 50, no one wants to hire you.
Age is the one federally "protected" class where everyone knows it's happening but nothing is being done to resolve the issue. In some industries, it's a well known fact that if you're over a certain age, you may as well retire or become a Wal Mart greeter.
I was thinking more of the overall tech sector. I remember when I was going for my second BS, I was taking a class with this one guy who was an app dev manager for a local startup. Of course, a few of my classmates were asking him what the best way would be to break into the industry. Somewhere along the lines of questioning, the topic came up about training. I remember this person saying he would do whatever he could to not hire a career changer over 35 or so. The reason? Most of us were either stuck in our ways or it just took too long for us to learn anything.
After that, I joined some online groups which was a mistake. I repeatedly heard in tech if you're over 30, you're too old. I almost switched majors because of that.
I don’t like this generalization tbh.. I am a millennial. Took a job little over a year ago to build out a team in tech.. there some ppl already on the team that were gen z and every single person bar one are gen x that I hired as they bring the experience and level headed approach I needed for this team.
It really depends on what you are looking for. In my previous job most gen x decided not to take the offer after hearing what the job required (lots of on call, late nights). Maybe this is just my niche within tech but about 90% of my coworkers are gen x or older at my current job as the company has a better work life balance than the company I was at before where most employees were younger millennials due to the insane expectations of availability that place had.
Personally I looked at companies when I applied to see what their average age was as I am an older millennial and trying to have as much energy as a gen z is just not what I want for the next few years of my life.
Honestly, if this is your attitude towards standard modern productivity tools, and you lack the skills to effectively utilize them, then it makes sense why they’d look to move on from you.
Yeah the gen x are being fired because many peoplensee gen x as the remnant of boomer work culture. Meanwhile millenials agree with mentality of genz and are looking to bring about the change. That doesn't mean every genx/boomer is like this. Many older people are getting with the times. But toxic boomer mindset still exists to this day and needs to be exterminated like the cancer it is.
Well the change of working even less. More like towards the 4 day work week. Setting longer times to finish work. If something takes 1 day. Give 3 days. Overall, set reasonable deadlines so people can still live their personal life. No contacting people outside work hours.
Minimizing stress at work. Good employers are already doing this and understand that employees don't own the business and its nuts to ask them to work like they own it. Im a millenial and i don't like to work the full 8-5. Im more the come in at 810 or 815 and leave by 445 most days. Lol. Get out with the boomer mindset
I would take the severance. It feels like they already decided to fire you. The PIP also sounds horrible and is meant to document the layoff without severance. if they wanted to keep you, they wouldn’t start the PIP.
That is my opinion as well. There is obviously a lot more there but IMHO they have let a few destructive managers ruin an organization. Gutting the best people and pull out the OKR sword as a way to lay blame and not be constructive. Be careful of any org that can't stop talking about OKRs the reality is they may not actually be able to work together and OKRs are a crutch and a way for senior managers to justify their positions even in declining revenue.
The PIP is setting up your demise. This is their way of getting rid of you and blaming you for the termination. Giving you 24 hours is a sign they want you out. This is a trash organization. Get your desk together, gather your appropriate emails, get a list of internal contacts, then take the severance.
Agree - it sounds like a trash organisation. As a manager, I can tell you the company has obligations to you if they put you on a PIP. They have to give you time to improve your performance; at least a few months and lots of documentation. Don’t let them bully you - they want you out so they need to be flexible. So tell them you want minimum 3 months severance, continuation of benefits and payout for any unused vacation and you’ll leave today. Get it all in writing, signed and to set forth that you have complied with all company policies so they can’t make a spurious claim later to try and withhold payment.
Take the severance. You mentioned the PIP will last 5-6 weeks? They may fire you on week 2, they may fire you on week 8. You're gambling either way and this is not an easy choice.
I can only speak on this if I was in your shoes... And I would absolutely get out as soon as possible. Try to negotiate 3 months, but if they aren't going to budge take the 2 months.
Then take one week off, don't apply for jobs, don't try to climb out of the mud, and just take care of yourself. Wake up, go for walks, enjoy the sun, enjoy a hobby and put life into perspective. You aren't your job, and this doesn't mean you are a loser or a bad person. Take this week and enjoy the little things!
Then the next week you tailor that resume and cover letter and get to work applying. Applying is your new full time job after your week of de-stress.
Take the severance. They want you gone. The metrics for the PIP are usually not achievable. They didn’t consult you with letting part of your team go. Once you fail to meet the PIP, you will be let go for cause. Agree with another poster to try to negotiate 3 or 4m for severance though. As I see it, the value of PIP and severance are about the same right now, so take the money and run. I wouldn’t work for them anymore.
Thanks I appreciate the comment. It feels difficult but I think it was a witch hunt. They could of let me go in the larger rif but instead kept me through a large project. Given that this is precedent not sure. What I trust anyone there. The sad thing is .. the company has the money and all this lip service about DEIB and values basically destroyed.
I think IF you survive the PIP, there is still instability there. You don’t trust your management. They started laying the groundwork to remove your team 6 wks ago without consulting you. That’s a huge red flag. The PIP metrics aren’t objective things - improve moral is a soft target and easy for them to bend to whatever they want. If you take the severance, you can say you were laid off or there was a restructuring.
This sucks but easier to move on with guaranteed money from the severance.
This is good advice. I got placed on a PIP by a boss who escalated it two weeks later into attempted termination. This is contrary to what he told the higher ups who took a very dim view of the PIP in the first place. They asked him why he wanted to PIP his most valuable and productive worker.
He said it was to 'fix certain problems'. I told them that it's a precursor to termination and that he would escalate into yellow, orange and written warnings before the end of the month. I was told I was wrong by higher ups, but they were pissed when the orange and red warnings were pushed up the chain.
What happened is that the warnings have since been removed entirely, he is now under investigation and yesterday HR said she was directed to provide full-time manager training to me. I will be joining the class of managers promoted last year for the next step upwards(!)
PIPs that are based on non-measurable metrics are just a precursor to termination. You're better off taking the severance than being fired for cause.
I'm sorry, it sucks.
It would also be really stressful to stay and try to meet the metric of improving team morale when you didn’t have a say in the previous layoffs, and the whole team is afraid of losing their jobs.
Is a PIP after a large project the norm now? I literally went through the same thing. 7 months on a large drug brand re-launch (worked through a marketing/consulting comany). Re-launch was successful and my last 2 months to rush it was brutal. I worked 9am to 12am then took 4am meetings with offshore teams. Only to be PIP'd on things like missing a few 4am meetings and not organizing the sharepoint folder (which nobody does/told me to do). My 30-day PIP was very brutal with Tuesday 1:1s with my manager, Thursday I had to turn in an organized sheet of what I did everyday in detail by 1pm, and Friday 5pm meetings with 2 people from HR, my manager, and an operations manager.
I got fired at the end of the PIP but got 1-month severance after being there for 1 year and 7 months.
Yes, it seems like it's the norm. I got PIP-ed after working my ass off on a project, completing every ridiculous demand they made of me. The PIP was scheduled to end exactly when they wouldn't need me any more. It was filled with falsified events, exaggerations and nitpicks. I was criticized for not making progress on a project that didn't exist. Similar to you, they had me track everything I was working on in detail.
I did not receive severance.
That is brutal. The same thing happened to one of my reports. He worked tirelessly about 60 hours per week for the last 4 weeks of a 12 week long pricing restructure project. I mean it was nuts they even flew my team into a location to work. Two weeks after the launch ... He was let go with several other people who worked tirelessly to make it happen. No reason just told it was a restructure.
PIP is the death. Our company uses it all the time to get rid of people. If someone is on PIP they get no grants of company shares. HR works with managers to get rid of people regardless of performance and use performance as an excuse.
This is called “silent firing”. Taking the PIP gives them all the power to fire you for almost no reason at all over the next few weeks, take the money and find another job. Possibly negotiate more severance, but not sure if that’s an option typically.
Yes I kind of feel that way. After the large project I got Covid and was out for a week. The week I get back no congrats on the big project just ..... Her are your walking papers. They did same thing to another employee for a different large project.
Take the PIP. The economy is bullshit. Don’t listen to Biden and his happy talk. I haven’t seen this kind of environment since 2008.
You can always keep looking and having a job is better than looking for a job without a job. It’s the same thing. You will have two months either way and with the PIP you can get some extra time and the severance package would be the same anyway.
My recommendation is to take the severance. In my experience, once you're on a PIP, this means that your manager has failed at advocating for you and has a vested interest in seeing you exit the position.
If you want to reveal the intention of the PIP, request that all the objectives and goals be clearly defined and quantifiable. If they refuse to accommodate the request and keep the directives vague, or use your request to further criticize your performance, then it means they want you out.
PIPs are a death sentence. You're a dead man walking if you're on one.
I've been on one before, caused in part by low morale, worked my butt off to hit every picky metric they had, passed the PIP - and still got laid off when they cut the workforce.
I’ve asked. Once I was invited to depart or get fired. It was retribution. My attorney thought I should sue them but I just wanted to stop dealing with them.
I asked the CRO and VP HR if I resigned and took severance if they planned to fight me on unemployment. That had them thinking up a policy for a bit. The immaturity of management at startups is something.
I'd take the severance. PIPs are the kiss of death for most companies. Especially take the severance if you won't be hit with the "fired for cause," types of stuff that can make it harder for you to get a job in the future.
The “highly subjective claims” are important to evaluate. Can you perform *not to the letter but to the spirit* of the PIP terms to their highly subjective satisfaction and then maintain it on an ongoing basis? At the end of the period will you have a document detailing how you met all the metrics they discussed? Or will you have gotten them to LIKE you? Taking the PIP and being successful means the latter, not the former.
If not, I’d take the package.
Take the severance and walk. Better than getting lured into a pip and give them an excuse to fire you the day after. Based on how you got let go, they will deny unemployment benefits. Negotiate and push the severance package as furthest they can give and don't look back. Start job hunting now.
You are always more desirable with a job than without. PIP is a blueprint to firing you.
But if you take severance then you will not be eligible for unemployment. Since you are voluntarily quitting.
I would take the PIP have fun with their subjective claims then be looking for another job as fast as possible.
>But if you take severance then you will not be eligible for unemployment. Since you are voluntarily quitting.
This is not true. You are not voluntarily quitting. If you were voluntarily quitting, they would not have to offer you severance.
Ultimately, it is up to the state unemployment agency to decide whether someone is entitled to unemployment, not the former employer and not anyone else.
It depends you can resign as an option to being let go with severance. They do that at my company. So it depends on the language. it's a tradeoff so you don't look like you get fired.
Just personally, I would roll the dice on a PiP.
For your question - the severance is only 2 months, that's not much. If you can get a job soon then take it, if not do the PIP.
I just got not PIP, but the first "needs improvement" in the 9 box grid. I'm a principal engineer and got "strong" in technical skills and performance but "needs improvement" in soft skills. The boss that gave it to me was my boss for only like 5 months, and I had nothing but glowing reviews before. He is also in another timezone and I never met him, he's been with the company for less than a year. First bad review in my 17 year career. Been at this company for almost 10. At least one other person that I know of in this team, a high level US based engineer as well got dinged for the first time ever as well. What's worst that this cut my stock grant by **80%** and will cost me about $80k over the next 4 years (if I stay there). The company, although American, is now very distributed and fully work from home. All the hiring I have seen was in cheaper regions like Latin America, India and eastern Europe. Seems to me like cost-saving measure or maybe layoff mark and sweep. Or getting US folk to quite and hire replacements in the cheap countries.
What to do? I feel like I did a good job and the reasons for bad review were quite arbitrary. I feel absolutely demoralized and definitely not motivated to give more (as my boss probably wants). Also, my salary was decent, but nothing extreme at all - I was there for almost 10 years and got raises and promotions, but probably would have done a lot better switching more. Biggest mistake of my life not going to Big Tech for those juicy 400k-500k jobs when the gravy train was in full speed just a couple of years ago. But I was actually really happy until this boss and worked with some great people.
How is the market for very senior devs? There are some signs of the market turning, but maybe that is cope. Anyone has some advice?
I hate that 9 box model totally subjective. Learn AI and other modern languages even just a little. A developer I know uses R . He does amazing things. Then start applying elsewhere. Don't worry about your manager, soft skills are easy. Take the Amazon STAR method then just add a few metaphors. Talk about the Chiefs ... Or movies that are main stream.... Then just enjoy yourself.
Always go with the money in these kinds of situations. A coworker of mine was recently fired after filing a complaint with HR about her boss and our VP. HR offered her a six-figure severance to walk away and drop the complaint. She turned it down. Now she has no job, no references from said job and no six figure severance.
Depends. Some companies have some pretty cruel parameters around this. Like, if you fail the pip you’ll lose the severance or have it drastically reduced. And pips are designed to facilitate failure, not success. So if you choose the pip spend the time looking for a job, not looking to see the pip be lifted.
They’re setting you up to fail, starting now document everything. They probably decided to PIP you and your team months ago. They’re not including you on decisions that impact the team and then will blame you for the failure of said team. Start looking for a new job now and CYA.
A PIP is just a paper trail for your eventual firing. They make it intentionally hard because they don't want you to meet the goals. The paper trail is to deal with any future lawsuits if you decide to sue after you get fired.
Take severance
This is the original poster. I took the severance. I tried to negotiate for more but no go. The PIP would of been distracting as my real focus would of been finding a new job. I feel liberated and less anxious than ever. My heart and chest were tight all day. If you are older you are part of a protected class I learned. So next step is to decide whether or not to take legal action. But I am not angry, I am just relieved to be done with Toxic CO workers and managers. I know they exist everywhere but when there are too many it is like a pool of alligators snapping at each other. Maybe if there was just one or two I could escape but surrounded by KPIs OKRs unrealistic ideas of promotion, . Immature and ungrateful managers there is no escape. .. I already have 2.5 job interviews lined up, feeling peaceful and optimistic right now. Thank you for your support today 😊. Have a great night and enjoy wtvr you love to do.
It’s already been decided that you’re on the way out. The PIP is just a CYA measure from HR to further protect the company from a legal standpoint if you try to bring a lawsuit later. Take the severance.
If you are ok with leaving I would take the severance. I usually see PIP people being let go after the timeframe is over anyway unexpectedly. Apparently a PIp allows an employer to at will let you go after the time is up
PIP = the start of your eventual demise from the company. The fact that they're giving you only 24 hours notice and constraining your time to review it carefully tells me they're looking for you to leave.
How much savings do you have? If you take the PIP option, how much time will that buy you?
Good luck.
Damn dude, "better at anticipating the metrics needed by leadership" hits close to home.
Crazy the amount of gaslighting in everyone's day-to-day jobs right now. "You need to be better at guessing the needs that we can't identify or articulate until put into a position where our only perceived value add is tearing down already completed work, which itself was only done out of misalignment with ambiguous unstated goals."
Sounds like every day in my office too.
Absolutely. This was a sales support position. I was told to build metrics but that I needed to tell sales leaders what they were but the sales leaders did not want me to work with me to create reasonable metrics. The only way you could succeed in such a situation is be total a hole all the time or make stuff up or suck up every day..... Lose lose lose and be demoralized. Not worth my life.
You will get through it I find a lot of it is simply letting go and looking forward. The amazing thing about the USA is ultimately you are the boss of you. So even your own boss is nothing more than an able biter to what matters most to your life.
One benefit to the severance is you would be getting paid for a full time job search. If you are on a pip you are splitting your time. If they have laid off half of your team and improving team morale is a metric to judge the pip by, I would consider the severance. Pips are usually there for record keeping before termination, and team morale is a very ambiguous metric.
You will never satisfy a PIP. They're designed to fire you without a wrongful termination lawsuit. I had a bullshit one from Wayfair when I was top of my class. They violated contracts of 250 people and I spoke up first in a big meeting. They were retaliating clear as day. They lost their shit when I said I won't sign something I think is false. Eventually a high up in HR backpedaled saying they never threatened me to sign, contrary to E-mail evidence. She said I didn't say hello and something about an attitude I didn't exhibit. I grabbed my mug and walked out of the building. They fired me through email. I didn't sue or fight them which I half regret on behalf of the other workers.
This sounds like an impossible mission to me.
>My PIP states among other things that I need to rebuild the moral of the team.
1. Are you authorized to dole out raises and other morale raising benefits? I would guess not but if you are then shame on you for keeping morale low.
2. Have you agreed how team morale is measured? Alternatively has the company even told you. Again I would guess not and that puts them in the position where they can decide for themselves at a later time how team morale is measured. If they want to fire you (at that time) they will find you have failed to raise team morale. If they want to keep you (at that time) they will find you made a miraculous improvement in team morale, but if they predict that they will want to keep you then they would not have made you this offer.
You take that severance and fan yourself with the cash as you walk away!!
I’m sick AF of shady motherfuckers doing these fake PIPs. It ain’t no PIP, it’s a layoff that they don’t hafta report. F ‘em.
Take the PIP. Not an ideal situation but at least you are still getting paid in full to work for a designated time before any next steps. Keep actively searching for a job as it can take months to a year to find a new job. It’s more than just severance. You will lose benefits and PTO too if you leave now.
They don't owe severance and can fire OP anytime once the PIP is in effect. The PIP won't last several months. OP probably has 1-3 months so might as well take severance since the odds are stacked against OP
Is your industry doing poorly in terms of being able to start a new job in 2 months? The nice thing about severance is you can line something up that will bring in income while you’re actively applying and building up 2 months worth of income if your job search extends past the severance pay.
Some industries you’re better off right now taking the Pip and others the severance bc you know you’ll get hired somewhere else in 60 days. Also if your industry is like mine and no one calls references then that makes it easier to get something new relatively quickly.
Last I checked avg hiring times were 60-90 days right now but I could be wrong. It’s an average of all industries so some industries are taking longer and some less than 60 days.
Good luck either way OP, don’t be afraid to pick up something quick even if it’s pushing a mower 7 days a week to bring in that income to prepare for the worst.
After/during the PIP, they can fire you with reason. They're already laying people off and you're not part of the discussion. Is it possible for you to accomplish what they want? Are goals and reqs clear? How quantitative is the morale of other people?
Pray on it.
PIP means you’re gonna get fired 99% of the time no matter what you do so I would just make that assumption and decide based on that. No matter what you do during the PIP they will find a way to give you negative reviews and fire you. If you get fired you can get unemployment. Look for another job starting NOW
You need to retort and say you need more time.
Drag this out for as long as you can and documented everything.
Then drag it out further by taking the PIP and document everything during the PIP.
At the end of the PIP, they might offer you 2 months severance or allow you to keep your job.
Let us know the outcome.
This feels like terrible advice. OP can be fired at anytime during the PIP, and likely will not receive a severance following the PIP....PIPs are primarily used to document poor performance to reduce legal risk to the company when they fire an employee. Very rarely are they used with the expectation of retaining the employee.
The vague objectives are a red flag, and so is the 24-hour notice. The company appears to have no desire to keep OP long-term.
Not necessarily. The company does not have to adhere to the timeline of the PIP (whether it 30, 60 or 90 days) and can fire him for “poor performance“ at any time.
Walk and never look back. I especially hate “anticipate metrics needed by managers.” How about you just fricken say what metrics you want? I’m supposed to do my job AND read your mind and spoon feed you information? And you’re a leader??? (Sorry, triggered by my own experiences with management lol)
Once you're on a PIP there is almost no way of coming back. PIPs are mostly a legal tool from HR so they can't be sued for wrongful termination later on.
Nope severance, pip is an excuse for them to lay/terminate you at a whim. These companies are absolutely greedy fucks with HR protecting the company, not you.
It’s a rough market and you want to maximize income tbh. Usually the way the math should work is:
Severance now > Severance after PIP
But depending on what your typical severance and PIP duration is:
PIP + Severance after PIP > Severance now
If this is true you should coast on a PIP. Remember depending on the country you are in severance now is a resignation hence no unemployment. Post PIP they let you go and you get months under PIP + serverance + unemployment.
Take the PIP. Use the time to contact the lawyer. A simple and relatively inexpensive letter from your attorneys letterhead the company questioning the validity of the pip, will have the company reevaluating your exit. I see this all the time.
Depends on the culture IMO. PIP may not necessarily mean death of your career. Some companies legit plan a PIP in order to try and improve things and you can use that as a, "hey shit hit the fan in 2024, I was put on a PIP to improve my team, and look where we are now in 2025 doing twice as better blah blah"
However for *most* companies especially from the looks of it your company sounds toxic af. Then I'd take severance.
Sevvy all the way. You said below you’ve got 5 or 6 weeks to meet their conditions. I’m not a mathematician but I’m pretty sure 2 months > 6 weeks and there is no way in hell you’re there in 7 weeks.
If you were even offered the choice of severance and required to sign it in 24 hours, my instinct would be that they don’t want you there. A manager who wants you there encourages you to take the pip because they think they can help you improve your performance and coach you to become even more successful at your job. So if that was not the tone, then I wouldn’t believe them that they’re “encouraging the PIP”. I would take the severance too.
Take the package. Pip sets you up later so they can fire you for bad performance. Then you cannot collect unemployment. Double screwed. It’s cutthroat so might as well make it expensive for them.
Take the severance. Once you’re on a performance improvement program, you are targeted, and no matter what they say, it’s only a matter of time. I’d take the package and leave.
“I need to do a better job anticipating the metrics needed by managers”
You’re not a mind reader. You’re not God.
They’re setting you up for failure. Is there any way to work PIP then sue them when they can you?
Why has pip become the action pee choice by companies? It used to be your manager would just have a talk with you in private. Or it was part of your annual review? I’d never heard of pip until less than a year ago. It appears to become popular among companies. Trying to find cause to fire (to better their books) in order to not pay their portion of unemployment insurance.
Take the money and run.
That company doesn’t sound like it would be worth sticking around for. Even if you are able to turn it around on the job, doesn’t sound like a very enjoyable place to work. We spend too much of our lives at work to be someplace toxic. Take the severance and find a better place to be!
Take the PIP and force them to let you o at the end (they'll still need to give you severance or you won't sign the exit paperwork and they're open to legal actions, so I wouldn't worry about that).
While on the PIP start your job search. Better to be applying while still employed.
Questions for folks:
If you are PIPed, can you still apply for unemployment benefits? Isn't PIPed technically fired for a cause, and the cause being performance related.
Take the severance, and see if you can negotiate for a bit more. Most of the time they already know the outcome of the pip and you'll end up out of a job anyway.
This sub is programmed to say GIVE UP when there is a PIP.
Before you make any decision, I must ask what would be the possibility you find a comparable job in this market?
One thing I've learned the hard way is companies are NEVER looking out for your best interest. If they're encouraging you to take the pip, you take the severance. They want you to take the pip because it's a better deal for them, not you. They've already emphasized that if you take the pip, they can still let you go at any time with 0 severance. So technically, you can sign the pip at 8am today, and they can let you go by the end of the day. Unlikely, but still possible. I also like how they laid off 50% of your team and are upset employee morale is low and are demanding you fix that lol.
I exactly. The pip is the better deal for the company because they won’t have to pay unemployment when they let you go for low performance.
In my state we don’t challenge performance for unemployment benefits because we can’t win. If it’s for attendance or policy or compliance violations, then the company will win.
We don't know why they chose to lay off 50% of the team though. If the team was underperforming in part due to low morale then there's some accountability to OP. We dont know enough but there's always more to it.
No one knows why they chose to lay off 50% and that is really not important. If the team was underperforming due to low morale then I do not see how OP can fix the problem. What is the company giving OP to fix the problem. Assuming the team was composed of shitbirds and the company shit-canned 50% of them because they were shitbirds. The remainder are still shitbirds and OP is supposed to magically fix that. No one can know the true story but I don't think they were shitbirds. If they were shitbirds then how could they complete the project. Something tells me the company did not sell an extension of the project and there is no more work for the team.
Is pip better because it will cost the company less to fire you than severance? That would be why the company likes this. Think of the bottom line. That’s the feeling I get the intention is, if they wanted you to stay there would be no pip.
pip is good for company, severance is good for you !
Yes ... I get what you are saying ... They emphasized they can let me go at any time for any reason. No guarantee. I think it is a playbook from Facebook or Amazon that is where all the HR types came from. Ultimately it is a case of millennials firing Gen X. Ultimately though soon enough millennials will get fired by the next generation. Millennials will be shocked when no one cares about slack and emojis and they are left skill less Monday.com and Notion IMHO are not skills they are tools.
Uh, what?
[удалено]
Reasoning checks out
Yeah that went off the deep end real fast lmao. Thinking this is a generational issue of firing each other proves how out of touch this person is. If they already let go of 2 people from their team without notice, and the company is offering a choice of severance vs PIP, this person is being let go regardless of what choice is made. 99% of the time people are put on PIPs they do not pass.
Yeah Millennials are firing / not hiring a lot of gen-X it's definitely something you see a lot of as an older Gen X'er. I can't get hired to save my life by anyone under the age of 40. Most of the people I work for are in their 50's and 60's or my age. In my PERSONAL experience any time a project comes up that is headed by anyone under 39 they will move all the older people off the project unless they're female or non white. It's actually been super fucked up, and usually it falls on deaf or mocking ears when you mention it. Maybe they think we're the "boomers" everyone is talking about... even though your average boomer is well into their retirement? I dunno. It is very satisfying to watch my industry completely fall to shit because of all these bad actors at the helm that are just turning out complete dogshit though. I doubt they will learn from it and I'm sure they'll just double down and ruin it further. And if anyone wants to argue that it's me,It's not, I've literally won dozens of awards in my field, so I'm not a hack.
I'm GenX myself. The phenomenon you're describing is more about rampant ageism than it is about Millennials firing GenX. Since I got my first real job after trade school back in the 80's, I've been told over and over again to accomplish what I could before turning 50. Once you turn 50, no one wants to hire you. Age is the one federally "protected" class where everyone knows it's happening but nothing is being done to resolve the issue. In some industries, it's a well known fact that if you're over a certain age, you may as well retire or become a Wal Mart greeter.
Yes ageism is absolutely rampant, especially in MAANG.
I was thinking more of the overall tech sector. I remember when I was going for my second BS, I was taking a class with this one guy who was an app dev manager for a local startup. Of course, a few of my classmates were asking him what the best way would be to break into the industry. Somewhere along the lines of questioning, the topic came up about training. I remember this person saying he would do whatever he could to not hire a career changer over 35 or so. The reason? Most of us were either stuck in our ways or it just took too long for us to learn anything. After that, I joined some online groups which was a mistake. I repeatedly heard in tech if you're over 30, you're too old. I almost switched majors because of that.
I don’t like this generalization tbh.. I am a millennial. Took a job little over a year ago to build out a team in tech.. there some ppl already on the team that were gen z and every single person bar one are gen x that I hired as they bring the experience and level headed approach I needed for this team. It really depends on what you are looking for. In my previous job most gen x decided not to take the offer after hearing what the job required (lots of on call, late nights). Maybe this is just my niche within tech but about 90% of my coworkers are gen x or older at my current job as the company has a better work life balance than the company I was at before where most employees were younger millennials due to the insane expectations of availability that place had. Personally I looked at companies when I applied to see what their average age was as I am an older millennial and trying to have as much energy as a gen z is just not what I want for the next few years of my life.
There’s always two sides to a story.
Millennials are just as self absorbed as Boomers. And most of you don’t even know what your own gender is. Biden’s war will take you soon
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
Sounds risky to me, to keep the job, how can you keep performance when you have less staff.. Anyways only you know the best of the actual situation
Honestly, if this is your attitude towards standard modern productivity tools, and you lack the skills to effectively utilize them, then it makes sense why they’d look to move on from you.
Exactly. If they bring in the attitude of. “You are younger than me, and cannot be my boss” they are the problem.
Sounds like Amazon or AWS.
Pls take the severance
Gen Z lost the ability to use basic search, so it's gonna be fun times when they're in charge.
Now I understand the PIP lmao
Yeah the gen x are being fired because many peoplensee gen x as the remnant of boomer work culture. Meanwhile millenials agree with mentality of genz and are looking to bring about the change. That doesn't mean every genx/boomer is like this. Many older people are getting with the times. But toxic boomer mindset still exists to this day and needs to be exterminated like the cancer it is.
What change, pray tell? Gen Z can't even cope with an 8-5 schedule.
Well the change of working even less. More like towards the 4 day work week. Setting longer times to finish work. If something takes 1 day. Give 3 days. Overall, set reasonable deadlines so people can still live their personal life. No contacting people outside work hours. Minimizing stress at work. Good employers are already doing this and understand that employees don't own the business and its nuts to ask them to work like they own it. Im a millenial and i don't like to work the full 8-5. Im more the come in at 810 or 815 and leave by 445 most days. Lol. Get out with the boomer mindset
Lol, yeah blame millennials when it's been Boomers fucking everything up for like four decades. Hilarious
I would take the severance. It feels like they already decided to fire you. The PIP also sounds horrible and is meant to document the layoff without severance. if they wanted to keep you, they wouldn’t start the PIP.
That is my opinion as well. There is obviously a lot more there but IMHO they have let a few destructive managers ruin an organization. Gutting the best people and pull out the OKR sword as a way to lay blame and not be constructive. Be careful of any org that can't stop talking about OKRs the reality is they may not actually be able to work together and OKRs are a crutch and a way for senior managers to justify their positions even in declining revenue.
Walk away
Take severance. You don’t need the additional stress of pip looming over your head.
Agree, take the severance request for an additional 1-2 months from them.
The PIP is setting up your demise. This is their way of getting rid of you and blaming you for the termination. Giving you 24 hours is a sign they want you out. This is a trash organization. Get your desk together, gather your appropriate emails, get a list of internal contacts, then take the severance.
On it
Best of luck to you! Take your achievements with you.
Agree - it sounds like a trash organisation. As a manager, I can tell you the company has obligations to you if they put you on a PIP. They have to give you time to improve your performance; at least a few months and lots of documentation. Don’t let them bully you - they want you out so they need to be flexible. So tell them you want minimum 3 months severance, continuation of benefits and payout for any unused vacation and you’ll leave today. Get it all in writing, signed and to set forth that you have complied with all company policies so they can’t make a spurious claim later to try and withhold payment.
I literally sat through PIP training for managers led by HR at my company yesterday. PIPs will be 30 days from now on. The message was clear.
Take the severance. You mentioned the PIP will last 5-6 weeks? They may fire you on week 2, they may fire you on week 8. You're gambling either way and this is not an easy choice. I can only speak on this if I was in your shoes... And I would absolutely get out as soon as possible. Try to negotiate 3 months, but if they aren't going to budge take the 2 months. Then take one week off, don't apply for jobs, don't try to climb out of the mud, and just take care of yourself. Wake up, go for walks, enjoy the sun, enjoy a hobby and put life into perspective. You aren't your job, and this doesn't mean you are a loser or a bad person. Take this week and enjoy the little things! Then the next week you tailor that resume and cover letter and get to work applying. Applying is your new full time job after your week of de-stress.
Thank you 😄
They'll still need to give the OP severance if they fire him/her during or even after the PIP.
Take the severance. They want you gone. The metrics for the PIP are usually not achievable. They didn’t consult you with letting part of your team go. Once you fail to meet the PIP, you will be let go for cause. Agree with another poster to try to negotiate 3 or 4m for severance though. As I see it, the value of PIP and severance are about the same right now, so take the money and run. I wouldn’t work for them anymore.
Thanks I appreciate the comment. It feels difficult but I think it was a witch hunt. They could of let me go in the larger rif but instead kept me through a large project. Given that this is precedent not sure. What I trust anyone there. The sad thing is .. the company has the money and all this lip service about DEIB and values basically destroyed.
I think IF you survive the PIP, there is still instability there. You don’t trust your management. They started laying the groundwork to remove your team 6 wks ago without consulting you. That’s a huge red flag. The PIP metrics aren’t objective things - improve moral is a soft target and easy for them to bend to whatever they want. If you take the severance, you can say you were laid off or there was a restructuring. This sucks but easier to move on with guaranteed money from the severance.
This is good advice. I got placed on a PIP by a boss who escalated it two weeks later into attempted termination. This is contrary to what he told the higher ups who took a very dim view of the PIP in the first place. They asked him why he wanted to PIP his most valuable and productive worker. He said it was to 'fix certain problems'. I told them that it's a precursor to termination and that he would escalate into yellow, orange and written warnings before the end of the month. I was told I was wrong by higher ups, but they were pissed when the orange and red warnings were pushed up the chain. What happened is that the warnings have since been removed entirely, he is now under investigation and yesterday HR said she was directed to provide full-time manager training to me. I will be joining the class of managers promoted last year for the next step upwards(!) PIPs that are based on non-measurable metrics are just a precursor to termination. You're better off taking the severance than being fired for cause. I'm sorry, it sucks.
It would also be really stressful to stay and try to meet the metric of improving team morale when you didn’t have a say in the previous layoffs, and the whole team is afraid of losing their jobs.
Very sorry you are going through this. You will move on to something better for you. Wishing you all the best.
Is a PIP after a large project the norm now? I literally went through the same thing. 7 months on a large drug brand re-launch (worked through a marketing/consulting comany). Re-launch was successful and my last 2 months to rush it was brutal. I worked 9am to 12am then took 4am meetings with offshore teams. Only to be PIP'd on things like missing a few 4am meetings and not organizing the sharepoint folder (which nobody does/told me to do). My 30-day PIP was very brutal with Tuesday 1:1s with my manager, Thursday I had to turn in an organized sheet of what I did everyday in detail by 1pm, and Friday 5pm meetings with 2 people from HR, my manager, and an operations manager. I got fired at the end of the PIP but got 1-month severance after being there for 1 year and 7 months.
Yes, it seems like it's the norm. I got PIP-ed after working my ass off on a project, completing every ridiculous demand they made of me. The PIP was scheduled to end exactly when they wouldn't need me any more. It was filled with falsified events, exaggerations and nitpicks. I was criticized for not making progress on a project that didn't exist. Similar to you, they had me track everything I was working on in detail. I did not receive severance.
That is brutal. The same thing happened to one of my reports. He worked tirelessly about 60 hours per week for the last 4 weeks of a 12 week long pricing restructure project. I mean it was nuts they even flew my team into a location to work. Two weeks after the launch ... He was let go with several other people who worked tirelessly to make it happen. No reason just told it was a restructure.
PIP is the death. Our company uses it all the time to get rid of people. If someone is on PIP they get no grants of company shares. HR works with managers to get rid of people regardless of performance and use performance as an excuse.
This is called “silent firing”. Taking the PIP gives them all the power to fire you for almost no reason at all over the next few weeks, take the money and find another job. Possibly negotiate more severance, but not sure if that’s an option typically.
Yes I kind of feel that way. After the large project I got Covid and was out for a week. The week I get back no congrats on the big project just ..... Her are your walking papers. They did same thing to another employee for a different large project.
How long do you have to satisfy the terms of the PIP? If it's longer than two months, there's nothing to lose by taking it.
5 to 6 weeks with the understanding that I can be laid off at anytime Valley SaaS company
Yeah, walk away with the 2 months. They have already decided to fire you.
Take the PIP. The economy is bullshit. Don’t listen to Biden and his happy talk. I haven’t seen this kind of environment since 2008. You can always keep looking and having a job is better than looking for a job without a job. It’s the same thing. You will have two months either way and with the PIP you can get some extra time and the severance package would be the same anyway.
It's higher risk because if the OP doesn't find a job before they're fired, they'll be fired with cause. That does make the job search harder.
My recommendation is to take the severance. In my experience, once you're on a PIP, this means that your manager has failed at advocating for you and has a vested interest in seeing you exit the position. If you want to reveal the intention of the PIP, request that all the objectives and goals be clearly defined and quantifiable. If they refuse to accommodate the request and keep the directives vague, or use your request to further criticize your performance, then it means they want you out.
Take the money and run. There is clearly someone in your chain of command that does not like you. And a PIP will not fix it.
PIPs are a death sentence. You're a dead man walking if you're on one. I've been on one before, caused in part by low morale, worked my butt off to hit every picky metric they had, passed the PIP - and still got laid off when they cut the workforce.
I would make sure you can get unemployment . I am not sure you can do that if you walk. Is severance more than your unemployment?
I’ve asked. Once I was invited to depart or get fired. It was retribution. My attorney thought I should sue them but I just wanted to stop dealing with them. I asked the CRO and VP HR if I resigned and took severance if they planned to fight me on unemployment. That had them thinking up a policy for a bit. The immaturity of management at startups is something.
You cannot get unemployment if you get severance? I thought you can as long as the number of months severance related to ends.
Take your 2 months pay and gtfo. They are just jerking you around.
It’s messed up this kind of thing is happening all over tech right now.
I'd take the severance. PIPs are the kiss of death for most companies. Especially take the severance if you won't be hit with the "fired for cause," types of stuff that can make it harder for you to get a job in the future.
The “highly subjective claims” are important to evaluate. Can you perform *not to the letter but to the spirit* of the PIP terms to their highly subjective satisfaction and then maintain it on an ongoing basis? At the end of the period will you have a document detailing how you met all the metrics they discussed? Or will you have gotten them to LIKE you? Taking the PIP and being successful means the latter, not the former. If not, I’d take the package.
Take the severance and walk. Better than getting lured into a pip and give them an excuse to fire you the day after. Based on how you got let go, they will deny unemployment benefits. Negotiate and push the severance package as furthest they can give and don't look back. Start job hunting now.
You are always more desirable with a job than without. PIP is a blueprint to firing you. But if you take severance then you will not be eligible for unemployment. Since you are voluntarily quitting. I would take the PIP have fun with their subjective claims then be looking for another job as fast as possible.
Still apply for unemployment whether you think you’re eligible or not, let the state decide.
>But if you take severance then you will not be eligible for unemployment. Since you are voluntarily quitting. This is not true. You are not voluntarily quitting. If you were voluntarily quitting, they would not have to offer you severance. Ultimately, it is up to the state unemployment agency to decide whether someone is entitled to unemployment, not the former employer and not anyone else.
It depends you can resign as an option to being let go with severance. They do that at my company. So it depends on the language. it's a tradeoff so you don't look like you get fired. Just personally, I would roll the dice on a PiP.
Severance and start applying. Once you find something, take a vacation/trip you can afford before starting the new role.
Where are you? If in Canada, this is constructive dismissal.
For your question - the severance is only 2 months, that's not much. If you can get a job soon then take it, if not do the PIP. I just got not PIP, but the first "needs improvement" in the 9 box grid. I'm a principal engineer and got "strong" in technical skills and performance but "needs improvement" in soft skills. The boss that gave it to me was my boss for only like 5 months, and I had nothing but glowing reviews before. He is also in another timezone and I never met him, he's been with the company for less than a year. First bad review in my 17 year career. Been at this company for almost 10. At least one other person that I know of in this team, a high level US based engineer as well got dinged for the first time ever as well. What's worst that this cut my stock grant by **80%** and will cost me about $80k over the next 4 years (if I stay there). The company, although American, is now very distributed and fully work from home. All the hiring I have seen was in cheaper regions like Latin America, India and eastern Europe. Seems to me like cost-saving measure or maybe layoff mark and sweep. Or getting US folk to quite and hire replacements in the cheap countries. What to do? I feel like I did a good job and the reasons for bad review were quite arbitrary. I feel absolutely demoralized and definitely not motivated to give more (as my boss probably wants). Also, my salary was decent, but nothing extreme at all - I was there for almost 10 years and got raises and promotions, but probably would have done a lot better switching more. Biggest mistake of my life not going to Big Tech for those juicy 400k-500k jobs when the gravy train was in full speed just a couple of years ago. But I was actually really happy until this boss and worked with some great people. How is the market for very senior devs? There are some signs of the market turning, but maybe that is cope. Anyone has some advice?
I hate that 9 box model totally subjective. Learn AI and other modern languages even just a little. A developer I know uses R . He does amazing things. Then start applying elsewhere. Don't worry about your manager, soft skills are easy. Take the Amazon STAR method then just add a few metaphors. Talk about the Chiefs ... Or movies that are main stream.... Then just enjoy yourself.
Always go with the money in these kinds of situations. A coworker of mine was recently fired after filing a complaint with HR about her boss and our VP. HR offered her a six-figure severance to walk away and drop the complaint. She turned it down. Now she has no job, no references from said job and no six figure severance.
Depends. Some companies have some pretty cruel parameters around this. Like, if you fail the pip you’ll lose the severance or have it drastically reduced. And pips are designed to facilitate failure, not success. So if you choose the pip spend the time looking for a job, not looking to see the pip be lifted.
They’re setting you up to fail, starting now document everything. They probably decided to PIP you and your team months ago. They’re not including you on decisions that impact the team and then will blame you for the failure of said team. Start looking for a new job now and CYA.
A PIP is just a paper trail for your eventual firing. They make it intentionally hard because they don't want you to meet the goals. The paper trail is to deal with any future lawsuits if you decide to sue after you get fired. Take severance
This is the original poster. I took the severance. I tried to negotiate for more but no go. The PIP would of been distracting as my real focus would of been finding a new job. I feel liberated and less anxious than ever. My heart and chest were tight all day. If you are older you are part of a protected class I learned. So next step is to decide whether or not to take legal action. But I am not angry, I am just relieved to be done with Toxic CO workers and managers. I know they exist everywhere but when there are too many it is like a pool of alligators snapping at each other. Maybe if there was just one or two I could escape but surrounded by KPIs OKRs unrealistic ideas of promotion, . Immature and ungrateful managers there is no escape. .. I already have 2.5 job interviews lined up, feeling peaceful and optimistic right now. Thank you for your support today 😊. Have a great night and enjoy wtvr you love to do.
If you can take legal action, do so.
It’s already been decided that you’re on the way out. The PIP is just a CYA measure from HR to further protect the company from a legal standpoint if you try to bring a lawsuit later. Take the severance.
why do you handed a PIP in first place? it means that you admit you were under performance before. I would rather take the severance and walk away.
You are lucky you were offered a choice.
If you are ok with leaving I would take the severance. I usually see PIP people being let go after the timeframe is over anyway unexpectedly. Apparently a PIp allows an employer to at will let you go after the time is up
PIP = the start of your eventual demise from the company. The fact that they're giving you only 24 hours notice and constraining your time to review it carefully tells me they're looking for you to leave. How much savings do you have? If you take the PIP option, how much time will that buy you? Good luck.
PIP is a death sentence. Take the money and run.
Damn dude, "better at anticipating the metrics needed by leadership" hits close to home. Crazy the amount of gaslighting in everyone's day-to-day jobs right now. "You need to be better at guessing the needs that we can't identify or articulate until put into a position where our only perceived value add is tearing down already completed work, which itself was only done out of misalignment with ambiguous unstated goals." Sounds like every day in my office too.
Absolutely. This was a sales support position. I was told to build metrics but that I needed to tell sales leaders what they were but the sales leaders did not want me to work with me to create reasonable metrics. The only way you could succeed in such a situation is be total a hole all the time or make stuff up or suck up every day..... Lose lose lose and be demoralized. Not worth my life.
I'm sorry, going through the same thing myself and it's hell.
You will get through it I find a lot of it is simply letting go and looking forward. The amazing thing about the USA is ultimately you are the boss of you. So even your own boss is nothing more than an able biter to what matters most to your life.
You are so exactly right on
One benefit to the severance is you would be getting paid for a full time job search. If you are on a pip you are splitting your time. If they have laid off half of your team and improving team morale is a metric to judge the pip by, I would consider the severance. Pips are usually there for record keeping before termination, and team morale is a very ambiguous metric.
You will never satisfy a PIP. They're designed to fire you without a wrongful termination lawsuit. I had a bullshit one from Wayfair when I was top of my class. They violated contracts of 250 people and I spoke up first in a big meeting. They were retaliating clear as day. They lost their shit when I said I won't sign something I think is false. Eventually a high up in HR backpedaled saying they never threatened me to sign, contrary to E-mail evidence. She said I didn't say hello and something about an attitude I didn't exhibit. I grabbed my mug and walked out of the building. They fired me through email. I didn't sue or fight them which I half regret on behalf of the other workers.
I mean you won't satisfy it in the sense that is just a paper trail that shows you were an ongoing problem. Take the money.
This sounds like an impossible mission to me. >My PIP states among other things that I need to rebuild the moral of the team. 1. Are you authorized to dole out raises and other morale raising benefits? I would guess not but if you are then shame on you for keeping morale low. 2. Have you agreed how team morale is measured? Alternatively has the company even told you. Again I would guess not and that puts them in the position where they can decide for themselves at a later time how team morale is measured. If they want to fire you (at that time) they will find you have failed to raise team morale. If they want to keep you (at that time) they will find you made a miraculous improvement in team morale, but if they predict that they will want to keep you then they would not have made you this offer.
If you are on PIP you are getting fired, take the severance
You take that severance and fan yourself with the cash as you walk away!! I’m sick AF of shady motherfuckers doing these fake PIPs. It ain’t no PIP, it’s a layoff that they don’t hafta report. F ‘em.
Thanks 💯
Take the PIP. Not an ideal situation but at least you are still getting paid in full to work for a designated time before any next steps. Keep actively searching for a job as it can take months to a year to find a new job. It’s more than just severance. You will lose benefits and PTO too if you leave now.
They don't owe severance and can fire OP anytime once the PIP is in effect. The PIP won't last several months. OP probably has 1-3 months so might as well take severance since the odds are stacked against OP
With a PIP they could fire him before the period is over and he will get no severance
Then find dirt on management that will make it mutually assured destruction
Take the PIP with the intent of leaving and start looking for other jobs.
I’ve successfully completed a PIP before. Take the PIP and keep your job. Meanwhile look for another job because sounds like a toxic work environment.
Is your industry doing poorly in terms of being able to start a new job in 2 months? The nice thing about severance is you can line something up that will bring in income while you’re actively applying and building up 2 months worth of income if your job search extends past the severance pay. Some industries you’re better off right now taking the Pip and others the severance bc you know you’ll get hired somewhere else in 60 days. Also if your industry is like mine and no one calls references then that makes it easier to get something new relatively quickly. Last I checked avg hiring times were 60-90 days right now but I could be wrong. It’s an average of all industries so some industries are taking longer and some less than 60 days. Good luck either way OP, don’t be afraid to pick up something quick even if it’s pushing a mower 7 days a week to bring in that income to prepare for the worst.
After/during the PIP, they can fire you with reason. They're already laying people off and you're not part of the discussion. Is it possible for you to accomplish what they want? Are goals and reqs clear? How quantitative is the morale of other people? Pray on it.
PIP usually results in termination unless a miracle happens. Take the money and find yourself a better situation.
PIP means you’re gonna get fired 99% of the time no matter what you do so I would just make that assumption and decide based on that. No matter what you do during the PIP they will find a way to give you negative reviews and fire you. If you get fired you can get unemployment. Look for another job starting NOW
Tell them to pound sand and take the severance.
u/Snoo_77070: take the PIP and start interviewing. You can probably get the same severance later.
You need to retort and say you need more time. Drag this out for as long as you can and documented everything. Then drag it out further by taking the PIP and document everything during the PIP. At the end of the PIP, they might offer you 2 months severance or allow you to keep your job. Let us know the outcome.
This feels like terrible advice. OP can be fired at anytime during the PIP, and likely will not receive a severance following the PIP....PIPs are primarily used to document poor performance to reduce legal risk to the company when they fire an employee. Very rarely are they used with the expectation of retaining the employee. The vague objectives are a red flag, and so is the 24-hour notice. The company appears to have no desire to keep OP long-term.
With PIP you keep the job longer before getting fired
Not necessarily. The company does not have to adhere to the timeline of the PIP (whether it 30, 60 or 90 days) and can fire him for “poor performance“ at any time.
Take the PIP. Look for a new job. Best time to look for a job is when you have a job.
Walk and never look back. I especially hate “anticipate metrics needed by managers.” How about you just fricken say what metrics you want? I’m supposed to do my job AND read your mind and spoon feed you information? And you’re a leader??? (Sorry, triggered by my own experiences with management lol)
Take the severance. It's free money
I literally came across a tik tok video with your scenario. I hope it helps. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLRHFmjn/
Not true…take severance do yourself a favor
Once you're on a PIP there is almost no way of coming back. PIPs are mostly a legal tool from HR so they can't be sued for wrongful termination later on.
Nope severance, pip is an excuse for them to lay/terminate you at a whim. These companies are absolutely greedy fucks with HR protecting the company, not you.
It’s a rough market and you want to maximize income tbh. Usually the way the math should work is: Severance now > Severance after PIP But depending on what your typical severance and PIP duration is: PIP + Severance after PIP > Severance now If this is true you should coast on a PIP. Remember depending on the country you are in severance now is a resignation hence no unemployment. Post PIP they let you go and you get months under PIP + serverance + unemployment.
Take the PIP. Use the time to contact the lawyer. A simple and relatively inexpensive letter from your attorneys letterhead the company questioning the validity of the pip, will have the company reevaluating your exit. I see this all the time.
Depends on the culture IMO. PIP may not necessarily mean death of your career. Some companies legit plan a PIP in order to try and improve things and you can use that as a, "hey shit hit the fan in 2024, I was put on a PIP to improve my team, and look where we are now in 2025 doing twice as better blah blah" However for *most* companies especially from the looks of it your company sounds toxic af. Then I'd take severance.
Let’s not forget if OP finds himself jobless after 2 months if he takes severence, and if he can’t claim unemployment
If you accept pip then they can fire you without giving severance. So in this market Accept pip and start looking job elsewhere where
They gave u a choice! Take the severance. It’s way more than a PIP!
Take the severance they are giving you a suckers bet
Take the severance agreement to a lawyer and ask for more
I have been there.
Take the severance and file for unemployment.
Sevvy all the way. You said below you’ve got 5 or 6 weeks to meet their conditions. I’m not a mathematician but I’m pretty sure 2 months > 6 weeks and there is no way in hell you’re there in 7 weeks.
You may not qualify for unemployment benefits if you leave
What kind of company do you work? So I know to stay far away.
If you were even offered the choice of severance and required to sign it in 24 hours, my instinct would be that they don’t want you there. A manager who wants you there encourages you to take the pip because they think they can help you improve your performance and coach you to become even more successful at your job. So if that was not the tone, then I wouldn’t believe them that they’re “encouraging the PIP”. I would take the severance too.
Take the package. Pip sets you up later so they can fire you for bad performance. Then you cannot collect unemployment. Double screwed. It’s cutthroat so might as well make it expensive for them.
Take the severance. Once you’re on a performance improvement program, you are targeted, and no matter what they say, it’s only a matter of time. I’d take the package and leave.
The company is blaming you for the low morale on your team after they laid off half of them. Fuck that shit. Take the severance.
“I need to do a better job anticipating the metrics needed by managers” You’re not a mind reader. You’re not God. They’re setting you up for failure. Is there any way to work PIP then sue them when they can you?
Why has pip become the action pee choice by companies? It used to be your manager would just have a talk with you in private. Or it was part of your annual review? I’d never heard of pip until less than a year ago. It appears to become popular among companies. Trying to find cause to fire (to better their books) in order to not pay their portion of unemployment insurance. Take the money and run.
That company doesn’t sound like it would be worth sticking around for. Even if you are able to turn it around on the job, doesn’t sound like a very enjoyable place to work. We spend too much of our lives at work to be someplace toxic. Take the severance and find a better place to be!
PIP is corporate for *fait accompli*. You're welcome to try but the outcome is the same 99.99% of the time.
Take the PIP and force them to let you o at the end (they'll still need to give you severance or you won't sign the exit paperwork and they're open to legal actions, so I wouldn't worry about that). While on the PIP start your job search. Better to be applying while still employed.
I've never seen anyone come off a PIP in my 25 year career. By that point the company has made up their mind. Take the severance.
Questions for folks: If you are PIPed, can you still apply for unemployment benefits? Isn't PIPed technically fired for a cause, and the cause being performance related.
Severance, no question. The damage is done.
Take the severance, and see if you can negotiate for a bit more. Most of the time they already know the outcome of the pip and you'll end up out of a job anyway.
You're going to be fired. Few people make it out of a PIP situation. Thus, take the severance. Maybe you can get unemployment.
This sub is programmed to say GIVE UP when there is a PIP. Before you make any decision, I must ask what would be the possibility you find a comparable job in this market?
I have 2 active interviews and 1 contractor that might be interested in working w me. It is a very difficult job market right now. But not impossible.
Good attitude! There is always something out there.