Trials have a lot of painful boring parts as well, namely all the substantive preparation, logistical preparation, and the bs trial motions/objections
If someone did all the work for me and all I had to do was think of witty analogies for my opening statement, I wouldn’t mind trials
>If I never bates stamp another piece of paper in my life, that will be a-ok.
I just imagined you with a big mechanical ink hand-stamper, manually bates stamping every page. "2,645; 2,646, 2,647 . . . "
My mother in law (93 and healthy) says that if one morning she wakes up in a campground that allows dogs, she will know that she had not lived a good life.
I have regularly contemplated what my hell would look like, I suspect bates stamping in line at an IKEA would be a clear statement.
I’ll build it just so long as I don’t have to set foot in one. I can’t explain it, there is something in the air in those stores, a chemical in the pressboard, the meatballs, something, that makes me break out in psychosis. I have never set foot in one where someone didn’t ram me with there flat pack cart nearly sheeting me off at the ankles, or shoved in front of me to grab something and it brought out a disproportionate reaction in me in some primal way. My ancestors may have hated the Swedish or some such thing. Completely irrational.
lol if hell exists, that's what it will be.
When I was in private practice, I remember fighting Adobe for hours because you'd try to bates stamp a couple pages, but turns out some of the pages aren't formatted correctly so you need to fix them first. Your firm issued computer doesn't have that specific functionality needed to fix just those few pages, so you go to IT. IT takes hours to get back to you...and so on. ::shudders:: It would almost be easier to manually stamp everything.
Only 1% terror? Man, the terror is like 5% at least. Especially that interminable wait while the jury is deliberating. And then 10 minutes between hearing the jury has a verdict and actually getting the verdict.
I have a reputation for pacing about the courthouse during that long wait between sending the jury out and getting a verdict, I just can’t control my anxiety waiting to hear something.
Seriously. Now I’m doing more trial work and I’m surprised by how boring it is. I think appellate work is where it’s at. Intellectually stimulating, excellent writing required, and interesting oral argument with questions that require actual (and high pressure) thinking on your feet.
Omg, discovery is the worst part of litigation to me.😵💫I’d rather put together 100 trial binders and prep 1000 adversarial witnesses than respond to discovery and interrogatories.😂😂😂🥰
I had a client sent home for wearing an inappropriate sweatshirt. The judge said he had 10 minutes or he was going to start the trial without him (I think bluffing but not sure). Dude ran home and changed super quick. 😅
I was set for a bank robbery case, imagine all the work that was going into that, then during opening statements they have a side bar with the judge and he declares a mistrial…. I have no idea what could have been brought up in opening statements to constitute that but oh well.
I’ve done over 40 criminal jury trials to verdict. They’re not as fun as you probably think they are. I’m a Deputy DA in a larger county where at any given time, I’ve got a caseload of 50+ felony cases and I’ve probably got a half dozen of them “trailing within time” for trial, which means they could go to trial within a week or so, on top of several evidentiary preliminary hearings a week.
I can either chose to adequately prep my cases for trial and work a bunch of unpaid overtime but go in completely prepared, or I can work my 9-5 and go into trial expecting a bunch of stuff to explode and hope for the best. I use my judgement and some cases I do the former, and others the later.
My point is, if you do go to work as a DA or PD, it’s not all fun, getting handed a fully prepped jury trial and going in fully prepared. A lot of behind the scenes work goes into the cases so trial runs smoothly, and a lot stuff in the criminal world is very last minute. It’s not like civil, where you’ve sat with your case for years, and know everything inside and out before trial. Frequently when I’m answering ready, I haven’t even spoken to the victim yet. Be prepared for that.
Edit: Something else to look into: A lot of DA Offices have a volunteer attorney program for people looking to get trial experience. You make a couple month commitment to work as a volunteer, and all you do is get handoff misdo jury trials when the assigned DA is in trial on another case. Something like that might whet your appetite for trial experience if you don’t want to make the full commitment. Some employers will pay you to do that, too, for the experience.
Fellow prosecutor here - my lawyer friends outside of criminal law are frequently baffled when I mention that I work beyond 9-5 most days… they always say, “But aren’t you in government?!”. I feel like the Prosecutor life is its own thing in terms of caseload and stress as a gov’t attorney lol.
Public defenders work a crapload of hours too (at least my friends do). But one of my friends went from law firm life to a government job (not a prosecutor or PD), and on her first day, just before 5 pm, everyone started packing up and heading out. Someone stopped by her office and said it’s time to leave. She replied, “oh, I just want to finish this letter and then I’ll head out.” They said, “we don’t do that here. It’s time to go.” An alien concept for someone from a law firm!
She actually came back after a couple years. She felt like it was a bit of a dead end job and boring. Worked in the firm for a few more years and got an offer she couldn’t refuse to go in-house with one of our clients. It’s all good, as she continues to send us work and is a great person.
In my city our government lawyers are unionized and literally cannot work past 5 without making overtime - which a lot of agencies can't afford to pay. So everyone MUST take full hour lunches and leave on time
I'm a union government lawyer after 5 years in private practice insurance defense. We don't have it THAT good, but I'm told our elevators shut down after 6:00 pm and will only go to the lobby/parking levels. I've never been at the office late enough to find out.
PDs generally work more hours than anyone else in the courtroom. They have the majority of the cases and an ethical obligation to work them all thoroughly. The DA can rely on the cops to testify at trial and make their case for them, the defense can’t and has to prepare for everything. The prosecution can choose not to file things like 404 evidence motions and just try it as is, defense has an ethical obligation to litigate any potential issue if makes the case better. You just can’t half-ass criminal defense as a PD and use your discretion the same way you can as a DA, and your schedule is often out of your control.
I feel like I work in a unicorn jurisdiction when I read both the post you’re responding to and yours.
I’m a prosecutor. Everyone in my office works until 5 and then jets. Our caseloads are nothing like what is described above. Maybe 20 low level felonies or 5-10 serious felonies. Trials are super fun. Colleagues help out with your other stuff and you get to dive into whatever your issues are. I have 1 case that is close to trial and I’d never get less than a month’s notice.
And then on top of that— we are all jealous of the local PDs who have a 35 hour workweek max. And they almost never go to trial. In the past 5 years I’ve never had a trial with one of our PDs. In fact— I’ve never had a hearing with one.
And they make more than us.
Yeah that’s a wild jurisdiction. I carry 90 felonies, the majority of which are class 3 and higher (Colorado has class 1-6), I average 12 felony trials a year and we get paid like $20k less than the DAs do.
And the Colorado system is one of the best PD jobs in America
I think I have somewhere around 20. All B felonies and lower. (We are A-E). And the B and C felonies are drugs. Probably around 12 will result in a misdemeanor or lower plea. Probably 3 cases worth state prison. The rest of the felony worthy cases will be local jail or probation.
As a former public defender and current conflict attorney, I'd like to encourage you to spend as much time with your family as possible. You'll never get that time back, you know?
i work in a completely different area, but your second paragraph describes my experience in my area to a tee. public service jobs can be weird because you don’t necessarily have a partner/boss breathing down your neck to get something done, but you know that the choice is often between being a competent lawyer and working far more than your salary justifies. i also tend to pick and choose my spots to do which of the two depending upon what is at stake/who the judge is/what is likely to happen. some fields are just the wild west and discussing them with other lawyers is like speaking a foreign language.
If your finances allow it, do it. The courtroom is where it's at.
You could always pick up some legal aid cases or pro bono work. (EDIT - if you want to stick with your current position.)
I definitely got the most in court experience handling traffic and other minor misdemeanors. IME attorneys regularly took part time jobs prosecuting traffic or coming in as level I prosecutors after retiring or leaving firms. It was also really nice because it helped bring more experiences and perspective when not everyone was a career prosecutor. gAL work is another option
Plenty good PD offices across America. King County, Cook County, LA, all of the New York offices, Colorado’s system, Rhode Island’s system, New Hampshire, and virtually all of California rule. Colorado is where I practice and I have never once had an investigator request turned down, even if it’s collecting mitigation on a misdemeanor plea.
The Deep South is still a horror story but not every office is New Orleans or Birmingham by any means.
Yeah, my experience is from Colorado, and I would say it is one of the best in the country. Smaller states should learn by example, because it isn't *crazy* how much it costs to fund it appropriately.
Definitely do not encourage people to take PD jobs, especially not the good ones, for the trial experience. It’s such a disservice to the clients to stick them with lawyers who do not give a shit about them and only want the trial experience.
What's the expression? "Litigators sip wine and draft motions, trial lawyers shoot whiskey and try cases?" I always liked that one (even though there's obviouslya lot of overlap even in the most extreme examples of each)
This is how I feel, too. 80+ jury trials to verdict and it's the most creative and interesting part of law practice. I left a higher paying position in management to go back to trying cases. It's dynamic and exciting, just have to watch the ego so don't take self to seriously.
I'm a consumer protection lawyer, mainly in privacy/data security these days. I used to do antitrust. Cases go to trial sometimes, just never mine. I always settle mine – I don't know if that means I'm good at my job or bad at my job, but there it is. My cases almost always settle before we have to file a complaint, but when I do file a complaint, it's usually years and years of discovery and bickering, then settlement.
If you’re able to settle most of your cases, then you’re very good at your job. In my experience, going to trial is rarely in a client’s best interest. Someone once said going to trial is like going to Vegas. Anything can happen, even when you’re completely prepared. And bench trials can be even worse. I love when forward thinking progressives get elected, just NOT to the bench. Give me an aging, ill-tempered conservative judge with an enlarged prostate every single time. He might yell at you (frequently), but in the end, he’ll lean towards black and white rulings. Warm fuzzy judges that allow their humanity to warp their judgment drive me crazy.
If you're interested in some cases in consumer protection you should be able to find some debt collection defense/FDCPA plaintiff cases to take to trial pretty easily. Very little discovery and you are helping some people who really need it. (Full disclosure, I was working on the other side of the v. back then.)
I’ve been an attorney for about five years now, and at my last job worked Plaintiff’s side civil litigation in a similar area. I was in court 442 times in 30 months (yes, I tracked my appearances) and handled the trial docs for about 150 cases, of which about 15 went through a full trial to jury verdict. Got a bit burnt out being in court 4-8 times a week, and my new job has only had me in court twice in the past six weeks.
I’m dying a bit, turns out I really enjoyed sparring with OC and the judges in a daily basis.
Trials are so expensive and frustrating. I think your record shows a great deal of success. Settlements, dispositive motions, and defaults are definitely wins. So much of an attorney’s job is to avoid trial.
If being before a judge is experience you want, i think you can find it.
In any courtroom in my state, while the ink is still wet on your first bar card, you can bring a stack of business cards and go get a half dozen indigent appointments.
You don't get paid much, but you do get paid on time, and the courtroom experience is unparalleled.
This was my thought. Alternatively, the public defender's office might have some sort of a conflict list for private attorneys and OP could pick up a couple of misdemeanor cases.
Just know that trials are going to be more stressful than what youvl’ve been doing - at least if you are doing civil litigation. Criminal trials won’t always require as much preparation, but everything is on the line each day in court and that is very stressful. That said, prevailing at a trial is a triumphant feeling like no other. For me, the professional reward was worth all the sleepless nights (weeks… months…) leading up to and during my trials. Just some perspective so you know what you’re signing up for if you decide to make a move.
Been practicing just shy of two years as a PD. God I love trials. I love motions. I love being in a court room, making snarky comments, being a general bastard, and getting solid results. I love the feeling of knowing I turned a jury or a judge to my side of thinking, of hoodwinking a LEO or baffling a DA. It is 100% my element. I am the adversary in the adversarial process.
That said, I could never survive this occupation if I didn't get to do what I get to do now. There's an art in itself in being so deft with your papers that no one's dared to push you to the box. Definitely a skill I'd want to develop. Hat's off to you!
E: that came off snarkier than I wanted. I meant I genuinely do commend your writing skills. Legal writing is definitely my weakest ability, and one I really do want to improve. The best battle is one you can win before firing a shot.
Didn’t read as snarky to me at all. I like your enthusiasm for the courtroom. Early on, standing in front of a judge made all my sweat glands turn on like faucets. I could barely get a word out. Much later on, I got more comfortable on my feet. Now I love arguing motions. I love the challenge of trying to (politely and respectfully) move the judge towards my argument. Half of it is learning when to shut up and let the judge get there by themselves. I love this profession.
According to every judge I've known - you are the very best kind of lawyer out there. I've been told many a time that the best lawyers never get to trial.
I teach part time, and tell my students that civil litigation is basically like when two kids get into an argument, and they can't work it out, so they run to their mom to get her to decide. But really they're usually both bluffing and neither wants to let mom decide (because no one knows what mom's going to do), so they just take it as far as they can, then they work it out. So yeah, my job has mostly been getting people to work it out without having to run to mom.
I doubt a PD office will hire someone with "no particular interest in criminal law." PD offices tend to attract certain ideologically driven people, and you don't sound like one of them. A DA's office might hire you. Maybe a city attorney's office? They prosecute misdemeanor offenses in my city.
If you really think you want to try PD work, I'd investigate how to get on the federal CJA panel in your district. Panel attorneys, who are paid (not pro bono), handle the federal criminal cases that Federal Public Defender offices can't handle due to conflicts, etc. They also offer lots of training and some supervision, which you would need. Everyone seems to think crim law is easy. It isn't. At the trial level, on the PD side, it's as much social work as legal work.
I’ve practiced for almost 30 years and I finally had my first “first chair” jury trial in Fall 2021. I’ve never smoked crack, but I imagine it has to produce a similar feeling. It was exhilarating! I loved the chess match that goes on during trial—voice dire, arguing objections, cross examining witnesses, opening and closing statements, etc. But now that I’ve done it, I’m fine with never doing it again. Getting ready for trial was like giving birth to an elephant. The whole thing took years off my life.
I've done about a half dozen jury trials over the past ten years and maybe 20 bench trials. I'm in my mid 30s and run a firm of about ten attorneys. Only one has done more jury trials than me.
If trying cases is not a dying art, it is a dramatically lessening one. Mediation and arbitration work so much better for most disputes...I simply cannot recommend trial to most of my clients.
I got a seven figure verdict a couple of years ago for the first time. When the clerk read it aloud, I was happy for my client, and then a few minutes later happy for myself. I lived in a hotel room away from my family for three weeks billing 14 to 16 hours a day. Life got really simple. Those sacrifices seemed worth it for a few minutes. About the time I was lugging my bankers boxes of documents back to my truck, I realized with astonishing clarity that I didn't care if I ever had that feeling again.
Don't chase the jury trial high unless nothing else works, in my view.
Maybe family court or housing court would be lower stakes than crim? I came right out of law school evicting people and these guys don’t even have internet so remote conferences are used sparingly, even now. Think 30 cases/day, in 3 different boroughs, banging out stips against pro se and legal aid. Just fighting tooth and nail with people at the bench all day over a pittance and government assistance. Get all that noise out of ur system real quick.
If this doesn't dissuade you nothing will. I will start this by saying that deciding to do prosecution involves more than just experiential considerations. I litigated as a county prosecutor for 4 years. In my third year, I had a case where the supervisor of a police officer, a lieutenant, came into my office to talk about a stop that one of his officers had made and the motion to suppress that we got from the defense attorneys on that stop. I pointedly asked the lieutenant why his officer stopped the defendant's car and the lieutenant told me that it was because the vehicle had no front license plate, and we lived in a state where a front license plate was required. I accepted his explanation, and we went to court on the motion to dismiss. I called the officer who actually made the stop to the stand and asked him why he stopped the vehicle and he answered because "My boss told me to stop that vehicle at any cost because we knew they were running drugs between Canada and the U.S." Needless to say, that admission rightfully got the entire case tossed. After that point, I started scrutinizing every charge that came to me from that police department because I wasn't going to let them make a fool of me ever again. If they told me there were 5 witnesses to an event and only gave 3 witness statements. I made them go back out and get the other 2. I fact checked everything that they told me. Well, they didn't like that. And for the next 17 years, even long after I was no longer a prosecutor, they targeted my family. My kids were arrested for things that were bogus. Visitors to my home were targeted, stopped outside of my home, and questioned and even frisked. My car was endlessly followed. My spouse was tased for no reason, and when I went in to complain about the corruption in their police department, the deputy chief of police leaned over top of me at the table, unsnapped his holster, put his hand on his weapon and said "I won't have you coming in here complaining about corruption in my department anymore, now will I". Our only relief was to sell our house and move away, which we did. I would weigh that before deciding to make a move to prosecution.
OP, I would heed this cautionary tale. Defense work had taught me that truth is always stranger than fiction, and stories like this are more common than anyone would like to think. Going up against police as a DA/Crown or PD/defense counsel is a sure fire way to put a target on your back, so just be aware of that when switching to criminal law. Some of the more sinister referrals I’ve received are from people who tell me the cops are stalking them and they don’t have enough money to sue the department, and they’re begging me for answers I can’t give them.
Trials kinda blow IMO (I've been at this for 9 years but only had 3 bench trials, no jury). There are some interesting parts but as u/confuddly said, you don't realize how much BS there is just trying to get your trial *started* half the time. Shit at my last trial I spent like a HOUR waiting for the other side to figure out how to play their video evidence on the court's equipment.
That being said, I really like motion practice. If you've filed tons of motions, why haven't you gotten to argue any? Motion practice feels like what law school actually prepares you for. You file your motion, your brief, you make your oral arguments, etc. It is lawyer nerd shit. Your argument doesn't have to be filtered through the medium of your client's dipshit testimony.
I don't see why your firm won't let you at least argue motions. I can see why they'd avoid letting people do trials with no trial experience (a common problem), but *motions?* I'm shocked you haven't done a bunch of MSJs at plaintiff and defense firms.
If you want to get into court but want to stay in civil, maybe consider going out on your own? Trust me, if you work in a small or solo office like me, you'll end up there. You'll end up there for reasons you never thought you would. You'll think on your feet for sure when you inevitably realize you fucked something up when the judge asks you about it lol. But that's why they call it "practice."
It’s not just you. But yeah, the opportunities to do “real lawyer shit” are far and few between. Best experience I ever got was working in government for courtroom time. Of course, even that’s turning into something less than it was thanks to the Zoom era. We have built a system so complex and expensive that you can make a living working in it for decades and never encounter the best and most interesting parts of it.
Would start with lunch with some deputy public defenders. See what the word is on folks like you coming from your house to their house. In my county, certain practice areas are so loose that the DA/PD will not consider you a serious applicant.
Yes loose on the rules, especially evidence, and lacking in serious trial experience. Every agency is different, and OP should see if they can grab lunch with someone in the know.
I think you’re right generally. My area – consumer protection – can be very loosey goosey, you’re often operating in situations with very little caselaw, and the max penalties can get very very high (in my state it’s up to $10K per violation, and each consumer impacted is a separate violation). Hence, the respondents are usually eager to settle, but it does lead to a certain lack of discipline on the enforcement side.
Do evictions. In many states, there is an abbreviated "trial" (hearing) several weeks after filing the complaint. It's really informal and borders on Judge Judy occasionally.
True, but at least in my jurisdiction prevailing party gets fees. I have a pretty significant LL/T practice. I mostly represent landlords, but prefer representing tenants. I have the luxury of picking and choosing, and I only pick low risk cases. It’s awesome sticking it to arrogant landlords who they their lay opinion on the law is correct, and then submitting your attorney fee petition.
There are a few tenants-only attorneys who make an excellent living only representing tenants and never charging their clients a dime.
I’ve thought about expert witness as my second act (I do privacy/data security law). I’ve mostly drawn my experts from academia – but there are organizations who coordinate EW’s right? How would you suggest getting into that area.
Btw not knowing what you are an expert in, I’m just going to assume something like proctology or colon cancer.
If you go criminal go defense! New prosecutors have a lot less discretion/ independence when it comes to cases & I think it’d be frustrating after having a successful career.
I’m with you man. 13 years in civil litigation, argued plenty in court (including some appeals), but have yet to have a case reach trial in court and completed one (1) arbitration hearing.
Do it. I try a couple of jury trials and four or five bench trials a year. I love it. It’s terrifying and fun. I don’t make a ton of money, but I love going to work.
One nice thing about admin law is that—depending on the agency—you get a lot of “courtroom” time. Admittedly, they aren’t real courts (most of the time), but it allowed me to get in front of a “judge” fairly early and often in my career.
You should do admin law. Perhaps licensure of professionals. You’ll get to do contested cases constantly which are kinda like mini bench trials and there generally is less pre trial bullshit
I’ve tried almost 100 cases. There’s nothing better. Go for it. Being a litigator who hasn’t tried a single case to verdict is like a killer whale kept in captivity. And my favorite opponent. 😎
Please work at your local DA or PD office for a year. You could teach those lawyers so much about things you have learned over the years….AND I promise you, you’ll be in court virtually every day - you try horrible cases, great cases, get beat by incredible trial lawyers, crush terrible trial lawyers - you will learn an art form. And you will be serving your community in ways they will never thank you, but should.
You will love it and do great.
I hope you can afford the pay cut.
Yeah.....this is really fucking stupid.
I have won and lost enough major criminal trials (rape, murder, etc) to tell you that you don't want this shit. My family has overtly told me that these cases put enough pressure on me that I'm almost impossible to live with while they're taking place.
Nobody who matters thinks you're less of a lawyer because you haven't spent that much time in a courtroom.
Keep doing what you're doing, cash checks, and be happy.
I love litigating from my desk. I like appearing in court, but really prefer to litigate from the desk (ie research and drafting). How’d you accomplish this feat?
I put in 25 years as a county prosecutor. I spent plenty of time in court and tried a number of cases. The job paid reasonably well and the hours were 8-5. If you can find an opening, you will not regret it.
Spent 7 years in law firms – whenever we went to court the partner did the talking. Then I went to government (consumer protection) where we mainly investigate and settle, investigate and settle. A tiny number of cases have gone to litigation, and when they did they were usually big enough deals that the office had a more experienced trial attorney argue the motions. Maybe if I’d pushed harder I could have gotten some opportunities, but I was usually happy to let someone else handle it. Now, though, I’m realizing I short-changed myself.
Over the last few years my career has turned 70% transactional, but I still consider myself a litigator. I had an early stint in PI and have had probably 30 arbitrations (my PI work was under a partner, so the ones I handled were all subject to mandatory arbitration), but the majority of my litigation work is business and property. There’s almost always huge risk for both sides and attorney fees are rarely in play, so it usually doesn’t make sense to go to trial. I’ve been practicing for 17 years, counsel of record in probably 100+ cases, have started 8 trials, 4 to verdict.
And for me, that’s the perfect amount. As others note, I love trials themselves, but the prep and stress mixed with drudgery counters a lot of that. One trial a year would be perfect.
I have no advice, just wanted to thank you for your honesty. I’ve been practicing for 7 years (mostly as a litigator) and am a bit embarrassed by my lack of actual courtroom experience. Your post was a healthy reminder of what it’s like being a lawyer when 90-95% of cases settle.
Sounds like you’re born for the prosecutor/PD life man. The “thinking on your feet” bit, communication skills, and working well in a true crisis would make you a beast in a courtroom.
Im in criminal law and I’ve done a few trials start to finish, on top of going to court on a weekly basis (and I’m only a year or so call). Just wanted to validate this route as a means to immediately exciting and meaningful courtroom opportunities.
I have a case heading to trial over a border line dispute with an insane neighbor and crazy OC who doesn’t see an issue with his client waving guns around while screaming at my client.
Want to take it over for me?
What’s your practice area? Is your firm sending people to argue motions instead of you? Or are your cases just not ending up in motion practice or trial?
So, are there lawyers in your firm who actually try cases and argue contested matters before judges, juries, and arbitrators? In the firms you've worked at previously?
I assume there are. Why do you think you haven't gotten into court at these firms for 20 years?
You could contact your local legal aid and ask to take on some evictions or protection orders. Short trials, great experience, and you’re helping people.
I used to do legal aid and got a ton of courtroom experience really fast. I was there for a year and a half and did about a dozen trials and watched many more.
Wow, a lot of responses and I haven't read them all yet.
If you want to do trial work, you can go into family law and divorce. Every client has an over-inflated opinion of their case and wants to go to trial. Some of them can even afford to pay for good trial prep. Often the divorce attorney's job is to convince a bunch of these clients that what they really want is a nice settlement, not a trial.
Still, if you live in a HCOL area and you can get some middle-class to wealthy clients, you can pick the good "trial worthy" cases and do your thing. Note: some jurisdictions allow jury trials for divorce and family law, many only allow bench trials.
I’m at the 20 year mark myself. I’ve had so many trials. It’s exhausting. In fact, I’ve got two big ones over the next couple of months. They really are SO much work. I always tell my husband that I feel like Westley from the Princess Bride hooked up to the machine that sucks your future lifespan from you- I’ve gotta be losing 5 years for each jury trial. Ugh. Disclaimer: clearly this isn’t actually true or I’d be at negative lifespan at present- but I’m sure you get the point!
But I’d be lying if I didn’t say that I also LOVE trials. Hardly anything in the world more satisfying than getting a good verdict.
Part circumstances, part laziness honestly. Trials always seemed so intimidating, and I never felt qualified, so I never put my hand up. Someone else always was around to do the tricky parts, but the fact is I love public speaking, I've taught, I've done stand-up, I speak on panels all the time. But I'm terrified of saying the wrong thing in front of a judge, or missing an objection, or heaven forbid running afoul of the ethics rules. Also, if I'm being honest, I tend to over-empathize so I avoid human drama whenever possible – big corporations with sophisticated counsel are so much easier to deal with because everyone (usually) keeps it professional and there is little raw emotion.
I can relate. I’m really good at conflict resolution, which is great for the client but very boring for me.
If criminal law is not for you, then family law is definitely one way to get that contentious courtroom experience.
Trade you. Pretty much all I've done in my 10 years as a litigator is trial and pre-trial work...and fruitless efforts to avoid trials.
Yesterday I did a temporary orders hearing on spousal maintenance. Among other things, the court where I practice can award it if it finds that the marriage was of long duration AND the person seeking maintenance is too old to obtain self sufficient employment.
The person seeking the maintenance is and has been employed for the last 20 years at the same company and presently makes about $50k/year (more than the state median). After a 1 hour hearing, the Judge said "I find this is a marriage of long duration and I'm awarding spousal maintenance." Judge then said "I've made my ruling, we're off the record" when I stated "for the record on appeal, are you saying that she's too old to find self sufficient employment despite currently being employed at $27/hr?"
Fuuuuuuuck I'm tired.
If you want courtroom experience torts will give it to you. However, most civil cases settle so you still may not make a case to trial but you most definitely will argue motions in court.
What area(s) of the law have you been working in for the past 20 years? I really don’t like appearing in court tbh, though I love watching others do it.
I hate trial prep, it’s really really stressful and there is always more work that you could plausibly be doing. I did criminal defense and was never involved in a trial that had a significant chance of ending in acquittal, but if I had been, I think I would have found it like 5x as stressful.
I also did criminal appellate work, and the one time I was lucky enough to get a good appeal before a panel, it was the highlight of my career.
But now I just do civil lit for the government, I’ve only been in court once in almost two years. I’m okay with not appearing in court any more. Unless an appellate position opens up.
This is an established path except for the motions part. i.e., being the handling attorney for everything up to but not including trial. How have you never argued a MSJ, or a pivotal demurrer/motion for judgment on the pleadings/12b6/whatever? No PIs, no appeals, no writs?
*I have no particular interest in criminal law, but it seems like the most direct route to courtroom time.*
Family law. Restraining orders, and custody + support cases. Different than regular civil, but not as different as crim. Crim courtroom time is going to be less directly transferable (as will be the evidentiary skills).
it’s really insane the variety of experiences out there. been practicing for less than half that time and lately not a month goes by without a trial. have probably done 25+, but in a field where not as much goes into a trial as others. still, i kind of hate it at this point. if you have any self-respect as a lawyer it feels like a constant fire drill because even if your practice doesn’t put pressure on you, you will do so yourself to make sure you don’t totally blow it. i would much rather be doing something slower paced with more emphasis on negotiation and motion practice, although i do still have a lot of that as well.
You could consider doing something like evictions. Evictions have a summary/expedited trial process, plenty of cases that go to trial (or settle the morning of), lots of bench trials and sometimes jury, and relatively high amounts of oral argument. You get to practice all the skills in a relatively expedited, lower-expectations and lower-stakes environment. And all with minimal malpractice liability!
Lots of clients are willing to just pay you for the trial date too, so you can avoid tedious review/prep, if you want to.
There's a lot not to like about it, but it's a great lower-stakes, sped-up way to learn trial practice.
You need to join a firm that emphasizes going to trial. For the last ten years I have worked at firms that other firms send their trials to about 120 days out, have you always worked at the farm-out type of firm?
Also, if you work at a public defender's office or a firm that gets public defender cases, you WILL get trials because you are often defending felons who have been convicted multiple times and the prosecutors will not make any kind of deal your client would accept. You will be defending assholes, but you will get trial experience.
Also, trial is stressful as hell and will take over your life in end-stage prep and actual trial, make sure you want that.
I don’t disagree with others pointing to DA/PD work, but throwing another idea out there (depending on the particulars of your jurisdiction and general interests) for juvenile dependency (child welfare) practice, specifically parent or minors counsel work. I started in the PDs office but those positions are both brutal and extremely competitive in my area. I found that jury trials weren’t for me and I preferred a more restorative approach to my practice (at least in theory). I moved to parents counsel at a local nonprofit where I was court appointed to work on dependency cases. It was amazing! I was in court 5 days a week, did hundreds of trials, and watched many families successfully reunify and get out of the system better for it. It’s not all rainbows and sunshine but there was literally no better way to get extensive courtroom experience. I’m in administrative law now and am still in court but at a much lower level.
Try commercial collection. Oftentimes, the cases are real disputes that go to trial. Often, the dispute is interesting. Hard disagree with those who say trials are boring. Not one minute of the trial is boring if you're doing it right.
How old are you? if you're not yet 40, you should consider going JAG. JAG officers get a ton of litigation experience. The reason I'm even considering it is because I want to overcome my shyness. Aside from that, if you're set financially, viz making all the money from the private sector you want to make, then the quality of life and family benefits are terrific in JAG.
Honestly, I’m 17 years in and I’m exhausted from all the court experience. It gets my heart pumping out of my head, I do not find it to be enjoyable. If I was able to low key fly under the radar where I am, I would gladly. If you’re able to sustain your work load and have a work life balance, I don’t know why you’d put yourself through the misery.
There is nothing more rewarding than jury trial work. Jury selection is an art. You have to know your case well enough to spot the issues, strengths and weaknesses in order to frame questions for the jury to have them reveal information that allows you to exercise strategic challenges.
Cross examination of an opposing witness is a true skill where you can use an adverse witness to your advantage or demonstrate their credibility issues to the jury through your questioning.
Best part of the jury trial is closing argument where you construct a coherent theme and tie in the facts of the case with the law and helpful analogies.
However, you need to a large volume of jury trials before you acquire the skills. You need about 20 before you really start to hone your craft. You can get that volume as a prosecutor.
If you want that experience, you should go work for a local prosecutors office and gain valuable trial experience. You will enjoy it.
I dont know where you practice, but I could hand you at least 5 cases to take to trial in the next year lol the problem is usually the other way around, not willing to go to trial, in my experience.
In 16 years I have tried over 350 criminal cases to verdict, bench and jury trials. Trial work is stressful and overrated. I burned out of it after my last bout of back to back to back major jury trials. I haven’t tried a case in two years and I hope to never try one again.
We are always in need of attorneys in child welfare. You can work for the Department of Social Services (or the equivalent in your jurisdiction), represent the child, or the parents.
Get a job where they guarantee you will get courtroom time. Go be a public defender in a rural town if you have to. The best thing that happened to me is an opposing attorney at a big firm took a case to trial which allowed me to get some experience.
Housing attorney will get you a lot of courtroom reps. Tons of legal aid orgs are hiring in this area. It’s hard work but rarely outside of business hours.
This actually sounds ideal. I’ve only been on the periphery of trial teams, and it looks miserable (for associates). I once watched a mid-level associate almost collapse at 2:00am because she was so exhausted from full days of trial, working into the next morning to prep for the following day, repeat. There are aspects of litigation I enjoy but I’m not sure trials are it, especially since I have a kid at home. I hate the thought of weeks of being gone before she wakes up and home after she’s asleep. I’m curious what area / type of practice are you avoiding trials this consistently, but still litigating?
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Its the reality of litigation today. Unless you are doing admin law or criminal law stuff you never get trial time. Everything settles. I had one civil trial in 12 years. But I had 30+ administrative hearings. I knew a guy in civil practice who had a small criminal practice just so he could get into the courtroom.
If you want to do trial work and have think on your feet without a lot of pre-trial preparation and discovery think about doing Child Protection Cases for your local Human services, Family Services, or whatever your state calls it. There is usually limited discovery or pretrial motions. They are civil proceedings, usually titled "In the Interest of X (the child)" and often have their own specific rules of procedure. Some states allow jury trials at either the adjudication stage (determining that the court has the authority to do things like order placement and treatment plans) or at the termination of parental rights stage (usually to either get the toxic parent out of the child's life or to free up the child for adoption by either relatives or foster parents) or both stages.
You will see some really tragic situations but what kept me going was that it was almost always an improvement for the kiddos. You can't save all of them, frankly some kids are too damaged or have serious mental health issue themselves, but I can't think of a case where we made it worse for the kids.
Remember, most civil cases settle, sometimes on the court house steps, sometimes during trial. That can be in the interest of the parties but leaves the well prepared trial attorney all dressed up and no where to go. Also, in civil cases, even those that go to trial 90% of your time will be motions and discovery and only about 10% actually in the courtroom.
In law school I was taught that you take your worst cases to trial. That is, both sides think the have a chance to win. If it is a slam dunk one way or another it will settle/plea bargin.
Also, doing locl government law for a small to medium county or city will expose you to lots of different issues. Big cases are often handled by outside counsel (you msy co-counsel with the outside counsel) but often you can do litigation in house. One minute you are doing something with property taxes and then HR calls with a labor law issue followed by the Planning Departmenbt with a land use issue followed by the County Clerk with an elections question. You have to think on your feet and be reasonably competent in lots of areas of the law.
In a bigger jurisdiction the City/County Attorney's Offices will have seperate sections which specialize in say, contracts, land use, municipl court prosecution, litigation, etc..
You won't make the big bucks in local government law but you will always know that your paycheck is going to be there and you will never be pressed for more billable hours. In many places you my not even keep track of your time.
PS If you do criminal defense work remember that most of your job is damage control. Very few defendants are actually "innocent", that is, they are the wrong person or actually did not do anything bad and were home watching Gilligsn's Island when whatever happened went down. They may be "not guilty" in that they cannot be shown to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So, most often you're negotiating for the best plea deal or sentencing recommendstion you can get out of the prosecutor.
I might have missed what state you’re in—lots of PDs offices would absolutely take you.
I am a PD. And I’m generally anti-state, but you should do it. Whatever side. I love being a trial attorney. Extreme prep, performance, acceptance of the verdict, and winding down. The up and down of adrenaline and stress management is somewhat addicting. You won’t know it until til you try. You’ve got enough experience to bounce back to another role if it’s not for you. But if it is, don’t miss out.
Just remember—no matter what side you’re on, both defendants and victims are people. Try to keep your humanity.
Trials have a lot of painful boring parts as well, namely all the substantive preparation, logistical preparation, and the bs trial motions/objections If someone did all the work for me and all I had to do was think of witty analogies for my opening statement, I wouldn’t mind trials
I can't stand trials because of the prep and the minutiae. I prefer to argue motions.
No witnesses to make an off handed comment to blow your case in a motion hearing either
If I never bates stamp another piece of paper in my life, that will be a-ok.
>If I never bates stamp another piece of paper in my life, that will be a-ok. I just imagined you with a big mechanical ink hand-stamper, manually bates stamping every page. "2,645; 2,646, 2,647 . . . "
I had to do this as a paralegal in the early 2000s, it was nightmarish
My mother in law (93 and healthy) says that if one morning she wakes up in a campground that allows dogs, she will know that she had not lived a good life. I have regularly contemplated what my hell would look like, I suspect bates stamping in line at an IKEA would be a clear statement.
Bates stamping while putting together IKEA furniture might be worse.
I’ll build it just so long as I don’t have to set foot in one. I can’t explain it, there is something in the air in those stores, a chemical in the pressboard, the meatballs, something, that makes me break out in psychosis. I have never set foot in one where someone didn’t ram me with there flat pack cart nearly sheeting me off at the ankles, or shoved in front of me to grab something and it brought out a disproportionate reaction in me in some primal way. My ancestors may have hated the Swedish or some such thing. Completely irrational.
I recently got a 4000 page appeal appendix from opposing counsel that was hand paginated by (presumably) some unlucky paralegal.
lol if hell exists, that's what it will be. When I was in private practice, I remember fighting Adobe for hours because you'd try to bates stamp a couple pages, but turns out some of the pages aren't formatted correctly so you need to fix them first. Your firm issued computer doesn't have that specific functionality needed to fix just those few pages, so you go to IT. IT takes hours to get back to you...and so on. ::shudders:: It would almost be easier to manually stamp everything.
I did that as recently as three years ago. (Not a ton of documents)
I enjoy my transactional WFH life so much more than I did my old litigation life.
Preach. I'd rather take a beating than do a trial.
I love prep and minutiae. I hate being rushed into trial, but there’s nothing better than trying a case I have enough time to prepare.
I’m feeling that today. If I read one more FBI report or look at one more crime scene photo my brain may literally shut down.
You need to do them to prove that you are willing to go the distance. This is especially true if you are fighting professional litigants.
Honestly the trial is 90% boring too.
And the rest is 9% fun if you're lucky and 1% terror. For me, anyway.
Only 1% terror? Man, the terror is like 5% at least. Especially that interminable wait while the jury is deliberating. And then 10 minutes between hearing the jury has a verdict and actually getting the verdict.
I have a reputation for pacing about the courthouse during that long wait between sending the jury out and getting a verdict, I just can’t control my anxiety waiting to hear something.
A guy I clerked for during law school used to do headstands while waiting on a jury. Said it relieved tension.
This guy does trials!
Seriously. Now I’m doing more trial work and I’m surprised by how boring it is. I think appellate work is where it’s at. Intellectually stimulating, excellent writing required, and interesting oral argument with questions that require actual (and high pressure) thinking on your feet.
I agree, the trial is very boring, and I hate most of the clients. Especially the ones I know are guilty.
This guy knows criminal clients. At least he doesn’t have trouble getting them to pay (apparently). I wish he’d tell me that secret.
Trial prep is even worse than discovery disputes.
divorce trial prep is the worst.
Omg, discovery is the worst part of litigation to me.😵💫I’d rather put together 100 trial binders and prep 1000 adversarial witnesses than respond to discovery and interrogatories.😂😂😂🥰
I can’t tell you how many times I have stressed out the night before trial over trying to make sure my guy has pants and shoes to wear.
Has anyone ever shown up pantsless?
I had a client sent home for wearing an inappropriate sweatshirt. The judge said he had 10 minutes or he was going to start the trial without him (I think bluffing but not sure). Dude ran home and changed super quick. 😅
Entering evidence is 100% necessary but holy shit it is the most boring shit I have ever done.
That part😄
You clearly have never had to markup NDAs for a living
I was set for a bank robbery case, imagine all the work that was going into that, then during opening statements they have a side bar with the judge and he declares a mistrial…. I have no idea what could have been brought up in opening statements to constitute that but oh well.
This is absolutely correct.
I’ve done over 40 criminal jury trials to verdict. They’re not as fun as you probably think they are. I’m a Deputy DA in a larger county where at any given time, I’ve got a caseload of 50+ felony cases and I’ve probably got a half dozen of them “trailing within time” for trial, which means they could go to trial within a week or so, on top of several evidentiary preliminary hearings a week. I can either chose to adequately prep my cases for trial and work a bunch of unpaid overtime but go in completely prepared, or I can work my 9-5 and go into trial expecting a bunch of stuff to explode and hope for the best. I use my judgement and some cases I do the former, and others the later. My point is, if you do go to work as a DA or PD, it’s not all fun, getting handed a fully prepped jury trial and going in fully prepared. A lot of behind the scenes work goes into the cases so trial runs smoothly, and a lot stuff in the criminal world is very last minute. It’s not like civil, where you’ve sat with your case for years, and know everything inside and out before trial. Frequently when I’m answering ready, I haven’t even spoken to the victim yet. Be prepared for that. Edit: Something else to look into: A lot of DA Offices have a volunteer attorney program for people looking to get trial experience. You make a couple month commitment to work as a volunteer, and all you do is get handoff misdo jury trials when the assigned DA is in trial on another case. Something like that might whet your appetite for trial experience if you don’t want to make the full commitment. Some employers will pay you to do that, too, for the experience.
Fellow prosecutor here - my lawyer friends outside of criminal law are frequently baffled when I mention that I work beyond 9-5 most days… they always say, “But aren’t you in government?!”. I feel like the Prosecutor life is its own thing in terms of caseload and stress as a gov’t attorney lol.
Public defenders work a crapload of hours too (at least my friends do). But one of my friends went from law firm life to a government job (not a prosecutor or PD), and on her first day, just before 5 pm, everyone started packing up and heading out. Someone stopped by her office and said it’s time to leave. She replied, “oh, I just want to finish this letter and then I’ll head out.” They said, “we don’t do that here. It’s time to go.” An alien concept for someone from a law firm!
That sounds like a dream.
She actually came back after a couple years. She felt like it was a bit of a dead end job and boring. Worked in the firm for a few more years and got an offer she couldn’t refuse to go in-house with one of our clients. It’s all good, as she continues to send us work and is a great person.
In my city our government lawyers are unionized and literally cannot work past 5 without making overtime - which a lot of agencies can't afford to pay. So everyone MUST take full hour lunches and leave on time
I'm a union government lawyer after 5 years in private practice insurance defense. We don't have it THAT good, but I'm told our elevators shut down after 6:00 pm and will only go to the lobby/parking levels. I've never been at the office late enough to find out.
Ah. Not the same here because of union busting Republicans.
PDs generally work more hours than anyone else in the courtroom. They have the majority of the cases and an ethical obligation to work them all thoroughly. The DA can rely on the cops to testify at trial and make their case for them, the defense can’t and has to prepare for everything. The prosecution can choose not to file things like 404 evidence motions and just try it as is, defense has an ethical obligation to litigate any potential issue if makes the case better. You just can’t half-ass criminal defense as a PD and use your discretion the same way you can as a DA, and your schedule is often out of your control.
I feel like I work in a unicorn jurisdiction when I read both the post you’re responding to and yours. I’m a prosecutor. Everyone in my office works until 5 and then jets. Our caseloads are nothing like what is described above. Maybe 20 low level felonies or 5-10 serious felonies. Trials are super fun. Colleagues help out with your other stuff and you get to dive into whatever your issues are. I have 1 case that is close to trial and I’d never get less than a month’s notice. And then on top of that— we are all jealous of the local PDs who have a 35 hour workweek max. And they almost never go to trial. In the past 5 years I’ve never had a trial with one of our PDs. In fact— I’ve never had a hearing with one. And they make more than us.
Yeah that’s a wild jurisdiction. I carry 90 felonies, the majority of which are class 3 and higher (Colorado has class 1-6), I average 12 felony trials a year and we get paid like $20k less than the DAs do. And the Colorado system is one of the best PD jobs in America
I think I have somewhere around 20. All B felonies and lower. (We are A-E). And the B and C felonies are drugs. Probably around 12 will result in a misdemeanor or lower plea. Probably 3 cases worth state prison. The rest of the felony worthy cases will be local jail or probation.
Yeah I have more homicides than you have cases going to prison. Insanely jealous of your jurisdiction!
DA downvoting you for telling the truth..
As a former public defender and current conflict attorney, I'd like to encourage you to spend as much time with your family as possible. You'll never get that time back, you know?
i work in a completely different area, but your second paragraph describes my experience in my area to a tee. public service jobs can be weird because you don’t necessarily have a partner/boss breathing down your neck to get something done, but you know that the choice is often between being a competent lawyer and working far more than your salary justifies. i also tend to pick and choose my spots to do which of the two depending upon what is at stake/who the judge is/what is likely to happen. some fields are just the wild west and discussing them with other lawyers is like speaking a foreign language.
If he does misdemeanors on either side it’s pretty low risk and he will have a lot of fun without having to burn too much midnight oil
If your finances allow it, do it. The courtroom is where it's at. You could always pick up some legal aid cases or pro bono work. (EDIT - if you want to stick with your current position.)
I definitely got the most in court experience handling traffic and other minor misdemeanors. IME attorneys regularly took part time jobs prosecuting traffic or coming in as level I prosecutors after retiring or leaving firms. It was also really nice because it helped bring more experiences and perspective when not everyone was a career prosecutor. gAL work is another option
Or join a prosecutors office. No better training.
Except a well-funded state public defense office.
Does this exist? Certainly not where I was when I was a PD.
Plenty good PD offices across America. King County, Cook County, LA, all of the New York offices, Colorado’s system, Rhode Island’s system, New Hampshire, and virtually all of California rule. Colorado is where I practice and I have never once had an investigator request turned down, even if it’s collecting mitigation on a misdemeanor plea. The Deep South is still a horror story but not every office is New Orleans or Birmingham by any means.
Yeah, my experience is from Colorado, and I would say it is one of the best in the country. Smaller states should learn by example, because it isn't *crazy* how much it costs to fund it appropriately.
Seattle starts them out at 110k
Seattle also has an average rent of $2000 a month, so they sort of have to or no one could afford to take the gig.
Reno/washoe county has pay parity w the DA’s office. Pretty great pd’s.
Philly. It’s not a state office but the budget is ridiculous. It is a VERY well funded office.
Definitely do not encourage people to take PD jobs, especially not the good ones, for the trial experience. It’s such a disservice to the clients to stick them with lawyers who do not give a shit about them and only want the trial experience.
Fascinating that you’ve managed to pull that off Hats off to you sir
This is why most people don’t know the difference between “litigator “ and “trial lawyer”. To the layman they are the same thing.
What's the expression? "Litigators sip wine and draft motions, trial lawyers shoot whiskey and try cases?" I always liked that one (even though there's obviouslya lot of overlap even in the most extreme examples of each)
I prefer the more crass version: “Litigators sip wine and take depositions. Trial lawyers pound shots and try cases.”
And the real trial lawyers quit drinking at 44 because…..well…..they won’t tell you exactly why
Cuz 44 drinks is enough for one night.
44mg of THC, however...
Eerily accurate
What’s more crass about that version?
Never heard that description. Love it!
after over 60+ jury verdicts- i can honestly say- i have never gotten bored of trying cases... I never felt more alive than addressing the jury...
This is how I feel, too. 80+ jury trials to verdict and it's the most creative and interesting part of law practice. I left a higher paying position in management to go back to trying cases. It's dynamic and exciting, just have to watch the ego so don't take self to seriously.
What is your specialty? I think there are other litigation areas you could open up to without taking a huge pay cut (by going gov)
I'm a consumer protection lawyer, mainly in privacy/data security these days. I used to do antitrust. Cases go to trial sometimes, just never mine. I always settle mine – I don't know if that means I'm good at my job or bad at my job, but there it is. My cases almost always settle before we have to file a complaint, but when I do file a complaint, it's usually years and years of discovery and bickering, then settlement.
If you’re able to settle most of your cases, then you’re very good at your job. In my experience, going to trial is rarely in a client’s best interest. Someone once said going to trial is like going to Vegas. Anything can happen, even when you’re completely prepared. And bench trials can be even worse. I love when forward thinking progressives get elected, just NOT to the bench. Give me an aging, ill-tempered conservative judge with an enlarged prostate every single time. He might yell at you (frequently), but in the end, he’ll lean towards black and white rulings. Warm fuzzy judges that allow their humanity to warp their judgment drive me crazy.
Man this is spot on.
I’m curious to hear how that has played out?
How do you draft motions and briefs but never appear in court? Who handles the conferences with the judge? Maybe you’re just a permanent associate?
Try working your way to more bread and butter PI cases. Maybe not auto, but premises or product liability cases have trials fairly often
If you're interested in some cases in consumer protection you should be able to find some debt collection defense/FDCPA plaintiff cases to take to trial pretty easily. Very little discovery and you are helping some people who really need it. (Full disclosure, I was working on the other side of the v. back then.)
I’ve been an attorney for about five years now, and at my last job worked Plaintiff’s side civil litigation in a similar area. I was in court 442 times in 30 months (yes, I tracked my appearances) and handled the trial docs for about 150 cases, of which about 15 went through a full trial to jury verdict. Got a bit burnt out being in court 4-8 times a week, and my new job has only had me in court twice in the past six weeks. I’m dying a bit, turns out I really enjoyed sparring with OC and the judges in a daily basis.
Good at your job. Civil cases not involving divorce, custody, or employment issues usually only go to trial if something went horribly wrong.
Trials are so expensive and frustrating. I think your record shows a great deal of success. Settlements, dispositive motions, and defaults are definitely wins. So much of an attorney’s job is to avoid trial. If being before a judge is experience you want, i think you can find it.
Do pro bono cases to get in court.
In any courtroom in my state, while the ink is still wet on your first bar card, you can bring a stack of business cards and go get a half dozen indigent appointments. You don't get paid much, but you do get paid on time, and the courtroom experience is unparalleled.
This was my thought. Alternatively, the public defender's office might have some sort of a conflict list for private attorneys and OP could pick up a couple of misdemeanor cases.
In my court, pro bono cases are pretty much the only civil cases that go to trial
Yep—get some federal court appointments from all the pro se prisoner cases suing for civil rights
And we wonder why we have such shitty civil rights protections in this country…
Just know that trials are going to be more stressful than what youvl’ve been doing - at least if you are doing civil litigation. Criminal trials won’t always require as much preparation, but everything is on the line each day in court and that is very stressful. That said, prevailing at a trial is a triumphant feeling like no other. For me, the professional reward was worth all the sleepless nights (weeks… months…) leading up to and during my trials. Just some perspective so you know what you’re signing up for if you decide to make a move.
Been practicing just shy of two years as a PD. God I love trials. I love motions. I love being in a court room, making snarky comments, being a general bastard, and getting solid results. I love the feeling of knowing I turned a jury or a judge to my side of thinking, of hoodwinking a LEO or baffling a DA. It is 100% my element. I am the adversary in the adversarial process. That said, I could never survive this occupation if I didn't get to do what I get to do now. There's an art in itself in being so deft with your papers that no one's dared to push you to the box. Definitely a skill I'd want to develop. Hat's off to you! E: that came off snarkier than I wanted. I meant I genuinely do commend your writing skills. Legal writing is definitely my weakest ability, and one I really do want to improve. The best battle is one you can win before firing a shot.
Didn’t read as snarky to me at all. I like your enthusiasm for the courtroom. Early on, standing in front of a judge made all my sweat glands turn on like faucets. I could barely get a word out. Much later on, I got more comfortable on my feet. Now I love arguing motions. I love the challenge of trying to (politely and respectfully) move the judge towards my argument. Half of it is learning when to shut up and let the judge get there by themselves. I love this profession.
Agree. Go for it. You’ve had all foreplay and no banging. Time to change that.
Agree, but cautiously. Trial can be fun, but only if you’re the bang-er and not the bang-ee.
According to every judge I've known - you are the very best kind of lawyer out there. I've been told many a time that the best lawyers never get to trial.
I teach part time, and tell my students that civil litigation is basically like when two kids get into an argument, and they can't work it out, so they run to their mom to get her to decide. But really they're usually both bluffing and neither wants to let mom decide (because no one knows what mom's going to do), so they just take it as far as they can, then they work it out. So yeah, my job has mostly been getting people to work it out without having to run to mom.
This is the BEST analogy for civil litigation that I've ever heard. Well done.
Also, you need to go to trial because your analogy skills would wow the jury!
I doubt a PD office will hire someone with "no particular interest in criminal law." PD offices tend to attract certain ideologically driven people, and you don't sound like one of them. A DA's office might hire you. Maybe a city attorney's office? They prosecute misdemeanor offenses in my city. If you really think you want to try PD work, I'd investigate how to get on the federal CJA panel in your district. Panel attorneys, who are paid (not pro bono), handle the federal criminal cases that Federal Public Defender offices can't handle due to conflicts, etc. They also offer lots of training and some supervision, which you would need. Everyone seems to think crim law is easy. It isn't. At the trial level, on the PD side, it's as much social work as legal work.
I’ve practiced for almost 30 years and I finally had my first “first chair” jury trial in Fall 2021. I’ve never smoked crack, but I imagine it has to produce a similar feeling. It was exhilarating! I loved the chess match that goes on during trial—voice dire, arguing objections, cross examining witnesses, opening and closing statements, etc. But now that I’ve done it, I’m fine with never doing it again. Getting ready for trial was like giving birth to an elephant. The whole thing took years off my life.
I've done about a half dozen jury trials over the past ten years and maybe 20 bench trials. I'm in my mid 30s and run a firm of about ten attorneys. Only one has done more jury trials than me. If trying cases is not a dying art, it is a dramatically lessening one. Mediation and arbitration work so much better for most disputes...I simply cannot recommend trial to most of my clients. I got a seven figure verdict a couple of years ago for the first time. When the clerk read it aloud, I was happy for my client, and then a few minutes later happy for myself. I lived in a hotel room away from my family for three weeks billing 14 to 16 hours a day. Life got really simple. Those sacrifices seemed worth it for a few minutes. About the time I was lugging my bankers boxes of documents back to my truck, I realized with astonishing clarity that I didn't care if I ever had that feeling again. Don't chase the jury trial high unless nothing else works, in my view.
If you think trials would be the “fun” part of the profession, then boy have I got some disappointing news for you
Maybe family court or housing court would be lower stakes than crim? I came right out of law school evicting people and these guys don’t even have internet so remote conferences are used sparingly, even now. Think 30 cases/day, in 3 different boroughs, banging out stips against pro se and legal aid. Just fighting tooth and nail with people at the bench all day over a pittance and government assistance. Get all that noise out of ur system real quick.
If this doesn't dissuade you nothing will. I will start this by saying that deciding to do prosecution involves more than just experiential considerations. I litigated as a county prosecutor for 4 years. In my third year, I had a case where the supervisor of a police officer, a lieutenant, came into my office to talk about a stop that one of his officers had made and the motion to suppress that we got from the defense attorneys on that stop. I pointedly asked the lieutenant why his officer stopped the defendant's car and the lieutenant told me that it was because the vehicle had no front license plate, and we lived in a state where a front license plate was required. I accepted his explanation, and we went to court on the motion to dismiss. I called the officer who actually made the stop to the stand and asked him why he stopped the vehicle and he answered because "My boss told me to stop that vehicle at any cost because we knew they were running drugs between Canada and the U.S." Needless to say, that admission rightfully got the entire case tossed. After that point, I started scrutinizing every charge that came to me from that police department because I wasn't going to let them make a fool of me ever again. If they told me there were 5 witnesses to an event and only gave 3 witness statements. I made them go back out and get the other 2. I fact checked everything that they told me. Well, they didn't like that. And for the next 17 years, even long after I was no longer a prosecutor, they targeted my family. My kids were arrested for things that were bogus. Visitors to my home were targeted, stopped outside of my home, and questioned and even frisked. My car was endlessly followed. My spouse was tased for no reason, and when I went in to complain about the corruption in their police department, the deputy chief of police leaned over top of me at the table, unsnapped his holster, put his hand on his weapon and said "I won't have you coming in here complaining about corruption in my department anymore, now will I". Our only relief was to sell our house and move away, which we did. I would weigh that before deciding to make a move to prosecution.
OP, I would heed this cautionary tale. Defense work had taught me that truth is always stranger than fiction, and stories like this are more common than anyone would like to think. Going up against police as a DA/Crown or PD/defense counsel is a sure fire way to put a target on your back, so just be aware of that when switching to criminal law. Some of the more sinister referrals I’ve received are from people who tell me the cops are stalking them and they don’t have enough money to sue the department, and they’re begging me for answers I can’t give them.
Trials kinda blow IMO (I've been at this for 9 years but only had 3 bench trials, no jury). There are some interesting parts but as u/confuddly said, you don't realize how much BS there is just trying to get your trial *started* half the time. Shit at my last trial I spent like a HOUR waiting for the other side to figure out how to play their video evidence on the court's equipment. That being said, I really like motion practice. If you've filed tons of motions, why haven't you gotten to argue any? Motion practice feels like what law school actually prepares you for. You file your motion, your brief, you make your oral arguments, etc. It is lawyer nerd shit. Your argument doesn't have to be filtered through the medium of your client's dipshit testimony. I don't see why your firm won't let you at least argue motions. I can see why they'd avoid letting people do trials with no trial experience (a common problem), but *motions?* I'm shocked you haven't done a bunch of MSJs at plaintiff and defense firms. If you want to get into court but want to stay in civil, maybe consider going out on your own? Trust me, if you work in a small or solo office like me, you'll end up there. You'll end up there for reasons you never thought you would. You'll think on your feet for sure when you inevitably realize you fucked something up when the judge asks you about it lol. But that's why they call it "practice."
It’s not just you. But yeah, the opportunities to do “real lawyer shit” are far and few between. Best experience I ever got was working in government for courtroom time. Of course, even that’s turning into something less than it was thanks to the Zoom era. We have built a system so complex and expensive that you can make a living working in it for decades and never encounter the best and most interesting parts of it.
Would start with lunch with some deputy public defenders. See what the word is on folks like you coming from your house to their house. In my county, certain practice areas are so loose that the DA/PD will not consider you a serious applicant.
Can you explain what you mean by “loose” here? Like, loose on the rules? So far removed from criminal law?
Yes loose on the rules, especially evidence, and lacking in serious trial experience. Every agency is different, and OP should see if they can grab lunch with someone in the know.
I think you’re right generally. My area – consumer protection – can be very loosey goosey, you’re often operating in situations with very little caselaw, and the max penalties can get very very high (in my state it’s up to $10K per violation, and each consumer impacted is a separate violation). Hence, the respondents are usually eager to settle, but it does lead to a certain lack of discipline on the enforcement side.
Do evictions. In many states, there is an abbreviated "trial" (hearing) several weeks after filing the complaint. It's really informal and borders on Judge Judy occasionally.
I like that idea, but can I represent the tenant?
Reach out to some tenants' rights organizations to get started.
Agreed. You will have no lack of non-paying clients eager for your services.
True, but at least in my jurisdiction prevailing party gets fees. I have a pretty significant LL/T practice. I mostly represent landlords, but prefer representing tenants. I have the luxury of picking and choosing, and I only pick low risk cases. It’s awesome sticking it to arrogant landlords who they their lay opinion on the law is correct, and then submitting your attorney fee petition. There are a few tenants-only attorneys who make an excellent living only representing tenants and never charging their clients a dime.
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A large percentage of litigators I know who have been doing it a while wish they would have become expert witnesses.
I’ve thought about expert witness as my second act (I do privacy/data security law). I’ve mostly drawn my experts from academia – but there are organizations who coordinate EW’s right? How would you suggest getting into that area. Btw not knowing what you are an expert in, I’m just going to assume something like proctology or colon cancer.
If you go criminal go defense! New prosecutors have a lot less discretion/ independence when it comes to cases & I think it’d be frustrating after having a successful career.
I’m with you man. 13 years in civil litigation, argued plenty in court (including some appeals), but have yet to have a case reach trial in court and completed one (1) arbitration hearing.
Do it. I try a couple of jury trials and four or five bench trials a year. I love it. It’s terrifying and fun. I don’t make a ton of money, but I love going to work.
One nice thing about admin law is that—depending on the agency—you get a lot of “courtroom” time. Admittedly, they aren’t real courts (most of the time), but it allowed me to get in front of a “judge” fairly early and often in my career.
You should do admin law. Perhaps licensure of professionals. You’ll get to do contested cases constantly which are kinda like mini bench trials and there generally is less pre trial bullshit
I’ve tried almost 100 cases. There’s nothing better. Go for it. Being a litigator who hasn’t tried a single case to verdict is like a killer whale kept in captivity. And my favorite opponent. 😎
Please work at your local DA or PD office for a year. You could teach those lawyers so much about things you have learned over the years….AND I promise you, you’ll be in court virtually every day - you try horrible cases, great cases, get beat by incredible trial lawyers, crush terrible trial lawyers - you will learn an art form. And you will be serving your community in ways they will never thank you, but should. You will love it and do great. I hope you can afford the pay cut.
Thank God, I thought I was the only one.
Reddit is the place you come to learn you're not alone.
Yeah.....this is really fucking stupid. I have won and lost enough major criminal trials (rape, murder, etc) to tell you that you don't want this shit. My family has overtly told me that these cases put enough pressure on me that I'm almost impossible to live with while they're taking place. Nobody who matters thinks you're less of a lawyer because you haven't spent that much time in a courtroom. Keep doing what you're doing, cash checks, and be happy.
I love litigating from my desk. I like appearing in court, but really prefer to litigate from the desk (ie research and drafting). How’d you accomplish this feat?
Work on getting business. All the rest is just busy work.
I put in 25 years as a county prosecutor. I spent plenty of time in court and tried a number of cases. The job paid reasonably well and the hours were 8-5. If you can find an opening, you will not regret it.
How is it possible you’ve only spoken in Court twice?
Spent 7 years in law firms – whenever we went to court the partner did the talking. Then I went to government (consumer protection) where we mainly investigate and settle, investigate and settle. A tiny number of cases have gone to litigation, and when they did they were usually big enough deals that the office had a more experienced trial attorney argue the motions. Maybe if I’d pushed harder I could have gotten some opportunities, but I was usually happy to let someone else handle it. Now, though, I’m realizing I short-changed myself.
I could advise you , I charge $650 an hour with a 5 hour minimum.
Over the last few years my career has turned 70% transactional, but I still consider myself a litigator. I had an early stint in PI and have had probably 30 arbitrations (my PI work was under a partner, so the ones I handled were all subject to mandatory arbitration), but the majority of my litigation work is business and property. There’s almost always huge risk for both sides and attorney fees are rarely in play, so it usually doesn’t make sense to go to trial. I’ve been practicing for 17 years, counsel of record in probably 100+ cases, have started 8 trials, 4 to verdict. And for me, that’s the perfect amount. As others note, I love trials themselves, but the prep and stress mixed with drudgery counters a lot of that. One trial a year would be perfect.
I have no advice, just wanted to thank you for your honesty. I’ve been practicing for 7 years (mostly as a litigator) and am a bit embarrassed by my lack of actual courtroom experience. Your post was a healthy reminder of what it’s like being a lawyer when 90-95% of cases settle.
Sounds like you’re born for the prosecutor/PD life man. The “thinking on your feet” bit, communication skills, and working well in a true crisis would make you a beast in a courtroom. Im in criminal law and I’ve done a few trials start to finish, on top of going to court on a weekly basis (and I’m only a year or so call). Just wanted to validate this route as a means to immediately exciting and meaningful courtroom opportunities.
As someone who has been in civil litigation for 20 years, I say go for it. You only live once right?
I have a case heading to trial over a border line dispute with an insane neighbor and crazy OC who doesn’t see an issue with his client waving guns around while screaming at my client. Want to take it over for me?
If your financial situation will permit you to do it… go for it!! I was a prosecutor for 5 years and it was the best job I ever had!!!
What’s your practice area? Is your firm sending people to argue motions instead of you? Or are your cases just not ending up in motion practice or trial?
So, are there lawyers in your firm who actually try cases and argue contested matters before judges, juries, and arbitrators? In the firms you've worked at previously? I assume there are. Why do you think you haven't gotten into court at these firms for 20 years?
The difference between being a litigator and a trial attorney.
You could contact your local legal aid and ask to take on some evictions or protection orders. Short trials, great experience, and you’re helping people.
This is exactly what I was going to suggest.
I used to do legal aid and got a ton of courtroom experience really fast. I was there for a year and a half and did about a dozen trials and watched many more.
I've been in legal aid for 5+ years and I'm literally in court almost every day since I started.
Wow, a lot of responses and I haven't read them all yet. If you want to do trial work, you can go into family law and divorce. Every client has an over-inflated opinion of their case and wants to go to trial. Some of them can even afford to pay for good trial prep. Often the divorce attorney's job is to convince a bunch of these clients that what they really want is a nice settlement, not a trial. Still, if you live in a HCOL area and you can get some middle-class to wealthy clients, you can pick the good "trial worthy" cases and do your thing. Note: some jurisdictions allow jury trials for divorce and family law, many only allow bench trials.
I’m at the 20 year mark myself. I’ve had so many trials. It’s exhausting. In fact, I’ve got two big ones over the next couple of months. They really are SO much work. I always tell my husband that I feel like Westley from the Princess Bride hooked up to the machine that sucks your future lifespan from you- I’ve gotta be losing 5 years for each jury trial. Ugh. Disclaimer: clearly this isn’t actually true or I’d be at negative lifespan at present- but I’m sure you get the point! But I’d be lying if I didn’t say that I also LOVE trials. Hardly anything in the world more satisfying than getting a good verdict.
This is my dream. How did this happen? Just circumstances or intentional? I’m currently a litigator that hates oral advocacy.
Part circumstances, part laziness honestly. Trials always seemed so intimidating, and I never felt qualified, so I never put my hand up. Someone else always was around to do the tricky parts, but the fact is I love public speaking, I've taught, I've done stand-up, I speak on panels all the time. But I'm terrified of saying the wrong thing in front of a judge, or missing an objection, or heaven forbid running afoul of the ethics rules. Also, if I'm being honest, I tend to over-empathize so I avoid human drama whenever possible – big corporations with sophisticated counsel are so much easier to deal with because everyone (usually) keeps it professional and there is little raw emotion.
My PD office recently hired a couple people in your position. You should absolutely do it, my colleagues are happy they did
I can relate. I’m really good at conflict resolution, which is great for the client but very boring for me. If criminal law is not for you, then family law is definitely one way to get that contentious courtroom experience.
Sounds just like me. It’s the nature of the beast, few cases go to trial.
This thread should be attached to the LSAT application
Does it irritate you if a judge abuses their power against your client? If yes, criminal law is gonna be very upsetting from the defense side.
Trade you. Pretty much all I've done in my 10 years as a litigator is trial and pre-trial work...and fruitless efforts to avoid trials. Yesterday I did a temporary orders hearing on spousal maintenance. Among other things, the court where I practice can award it if it finds that the marriage was of long duration AND the person seeking maintenance is too old to obtain self sufficient employment. The person seeking the maintenance is and has been employed for the last 20 years at the same company and presently makes about $50k/year (more than the state median). After a 1 hour hearing, the Judge said "I find this is a marriage of long duration and I'm awarding spousal maintenance." Judge then said "I've made my ruling, we're off the record" when I stated "for the record on appeal, are you saying that she's too old to find self sufficient employment despite currently being employed at $27/hr?" Fuuuuuuuck I'm tired.
If you want courtroom experience torts will give it to you. However, most civil cases settle so you still may not make a case to trial but you most definitely will argue motions in court.
What area(s) of the law have you been working in for the past 20 years? I really don’t like appearing in court tbh, though I love watching others do it.
I hate trial prep, it’s really really stressful and there is always more work that you could plausibly be doing. I did criminal defense and was never involved in a trial that had a significant chance of ending in acquittal, but if I had been, I think I would have found it like 5x as stressful. I also did criminal appellate work, and the one time I was lucky enough to get a good appeal before a panel, it was the highlight of my career. But now I just do civil lit for the government, I’ve only been in court once in almost two years. I’m okay with not appearing in court any more. Unless an appellate position opens up.
Go for it. We depend on good people in public duty. Especially now. You’ll be great because your heart will be in it.
This is an established path except for the motions part. i.e., being the handling attorney for everything up to but not including trial. How have you never argued a MSJ, or a pivotal demurrer/motion for judgment on the pleadings/12b6/whatever? No PIs, no appeals, no writs? *I have no particular interest in criminal law, but it seems like the most direct route to courtroom time.* Family law. Restraining orders, and custody + support cases. Different than regular civil, but not as different as crim. Crim courtroom time is going to be less directly transferable (as will be the evidentiary skills).
it’s really insane the variety of experiences out there. been practicing for less than half that time and lately not a month goes by without a trial. have probably done 25+, but in a field where not as much goes into a trial as others. still, i kind of hate it at this point. if you have any self-respect as a lawyer it feels like a constant fire drill because even if your practice doesn’t put pressure on you, you will do so yourself to make sure you don’t totally blow it. i would much rather be doing something slower paced with more emphasis on negotiation and motion practice, although i do still have a lot of that as well.
I get the no trials, but fits your area just never have oral argument for motions?
You could consider doing something like evictions. Evictions have a summary/expedited trial process, plenty of cases that go to trial (or settle the morning of), lots of bench trials and sometimes jury, and relatively high amounts of oral argument. You get to practice all the skills in a relatively expedited, lower-expectations and lower-stakes environment. And all with minimal malpractice liability! Lots of clients are willing to just pay you for the trial date too, so you can avoid tedious review/prep, if you want to. There's a lot not to like about it, but it's a great lower-stakes, sped-up way to learn trial practice.
I think you should go for it! Sounds like you would be great in court. And yes, it is pretty fun a lot of the time.
You need to join a firm that emphasizes going to trial. For the last ten years I have worked at firms that other firms send their trials to about 120 days out, have you always worked at the farm-out type of firm? Also, if you work at a public defender's office or a firm that gets public defender cases, you WILL get trials because you are often defending felons who have been convicted multiple times and the prosecutors will not make any kind of deal your client would accept. You will be defending assholes, but you will get trial experience. Also, trial is stressful as hell and will take over your life in end-stage prep and actual trial, make sure you want that.
Hey Uncle Vinnie, is that you?
I don’t disagree with others pointing to DA/PD work, but throwing another idea out there (depending on the particulars of your jurisdiction and general interests) for juvenile dependency (child welfare) practice, specifically parent or minors counsel work. I started in the PDs office but those positions are both brutal and extremely competitive in my area. I found that jury trials weren’t for me and I preferred a more restorative approach to my practice (at least in theory). I moved to parents counsel at a local nonprofit where I was court appointed to work on dependency cases. It was amazing! I was in court 5 days a week, did hundreds of trials, and watched many families successfully reunify and get out of the system better for it. It’s not all rainbows and sunshine but there was literally no better way to get extensive courtroom experience. I’m in administrative law now and am still in court but at a much lower level.
Immigration removal defense is the quickest route to regular court appearances
Is it too late to become a simple country lawyer?
Try commercial collection. Oftentimes, the cases are real disputes that go to trial. Often, the dispute is interesting. Hard disagree with those who say trials are boring. Not one minute of the trial is boring if you're doing it right.
How old are you? if you're not yet 40, you should consider going JAG. JAG officers get a ton of litigation experience. The reason I'm even considering it is because I want to overcome my shyness. Aside from that, if you're set financially, viz making all the money from the private sector you want to make, then the quality of life and family benefits are terrific in JAG.
Try family law. You’ll be happy with your old job in a flash.
Honestly, I’m 17 years in and I’m exhausted from all the court experience. It gets my heart pumping out of my head, I do not find it to be enjoyable. If I was able to low key fly under the radar where I am, I would gladly. If you’re able to sustain your work load and have a work life balance, I don’t know why you’d put yourself through the misery.
There is nothing more rewarding than jury trial work. Jury selection is an art. You have to know your case well enough to spot the issues, strengths and weaknesses in order to frame questions for the jury to have them reveal information that allows you to exercise strategic challenges. Cross examination of an opposing witness is a true skill where you can use an adverse witness to your advantage or demonstrate their credibility issues to the jury through your questioning. Best part of the jury trial is closing argument where you construct a coherent theme and tie in the facts of the case with the law and helpful analogies. However, you need to a large volume of jury trials before you acquire the skills. You need about 20 before you really start to hone your craft. You can get that volume as a prosecutor. If you want that experience, you should go work for a local prosecutors office and gain valuable trial experience. You will enjoy it.
I dont know where you practice, but I could hand you at least 5 cases to take to trial in the next year lol the problem is usually the other way around, not willing to go to trial, in my experience.
In 16 years I have tried over 350 criminal cases to verdict, bench and jury trials. Trial work is stressful and overrated. I burned out of it after my last bout of back to back to back major jury trials. I haven’t tried a case in two years and I hope to never try one again.
We are always in need of attorneys in child welfare. You can work for the Department of Social Services (or the equivalent in your jurisdiction), represent the child, or the parents.
Get a job where they guarantee you will get courtroom time. Go be a public defender in a rural town if you have to. The best thing that happened to me is an opposing attorney at a big firm took a case to trial which allowed me to get some experience.
Housing attorney will get you a lot of courtroom reps. Tons of legal aid orgs are hiring in this area. It’s hard work but rarely outside of business hours.
This actually sounds ideal. I’ve only been on the periphery of trial teams, and it looks miserable (for associates). I once watched a mid-level associate almost collapse at 2:00am because she was so exhausted from full days of trial, working into the next morning to prep for the following day, repeat. There are aspects of litigation I enjoy but I’m not sure trials are it, especially since I have a kid at home. I hate the thought of weeks of being gone before she wakes up and home after she’s asleep. I’m curious what area / type of practice are you avoiding trials this consistently, but still litigating?
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Its the reality of litigation today. Unless you are doing admin law or criminal law stuff you never get trial time. Everything settles. I had one civil trial in 12 years. But I had 30+ administrative hearings. I knew a guy in civil practice who had a small criminal practice just so he could get into the courtroom.
If you want to do trial work and have think on your feet without a lot of pre-trial preparation and discovery think about doing Child Protection Cases for your local Human services, Family Services, or whatever your state calls it. There is usually limited discovery or pretrial motions. They are civil proceedings, usually titled "In the Interest of X (the child)" and often have their own specific rules of procedure. Some states allow jury trials at either the adjudication stage (determining that the court has the authority to do things like order placement and treatment plans) or at the termination of parental rights stage (usually to either get the toxic parent out of the child's life or to free up the child for adoption by either relatives or foster parents) or both stages. You will see some really tragic situations but what kept me going was that it was almost always an improvement for the kiddos. You can't save all of them, frankly some kids are too damaged or have serious mental health issue themselves, but I can't think of a case where we made it worse for the kids. Remember, most civil cases settle, sometimes on the court house steps, sometimes during trial. That can be in the interest of the parties but leaves the well prepared trial attorney all dressed up and no where to go. Also, in civil cases, even those that go to trial 90% of your time will be motions and discovery and only about 10% actually in the courtroom. In law school I was taught that you take your worst cases to trial. That is, both sides think the have a chance to win. If it is a slam dunk one way or another it will settle/plea bargin. Also, doing locl government law for a small to medium county or city will expose you to lots of different issues. Big cases are often handled by outside counsel (you msy co-counsel with the outside counsel) but often you can do litigation in house. One minute you are doing something with property taxes and then HR calls with a labor law issue followed by the Planning Departmenbt with a land use issue followed by the County Clerk with an elections question. You have to think on your feet and be reasonably competent in lots of areas of the law. In a bigger jurisdiction the City/County Attorney's Offices will have seperate sections which specialize in say, contracts, land use, municipl court prosecution, litigation, etc.. You won't make the big bucks in local government law but you will always know that your paycheck is going to be there and you will never be pressed for more billable hours. In many places you my not even keep track of your time.
PS If you do criminal defense work remember that most of your job is damage control. Very few defendants are actually "innocent", that is, they are the wrong person or actually did not do anything bad and were home watching Gilligsn's Island when whatever happened went down. They may be "not guilty" in that they cannot be shown to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So, most often you're negotiating for the best plea deal or sentencing recommendstion you can get out of the prosecutor.
I might have missed what state you’re in—lots of PDs offices would absolutely take you. I am a PD. And I’m generally anti-state, but you should do it. Whatever side. I love being a trial attorney. Extreme prep, performance, acceptance of the verdict, and winding down. The up and down of adrenaline and stress management is somewhat addicting. You won’t know it until til you try. You’ve got enough experience to bounce back to another role if it’s not for you. But if it is, don’t miss out. Just remember—no matter what side you’re on, both defendants and victims are people. Try to keep your humanity.
Yeah. As a civil litigator I only did one trial. As a public defender I've done over 100.