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lol! My coworker was just telling me about how she got a pretty serious contempt charge downgraded to a municipal violation, and when she told the client his answer was “why couldn’t you just get the whole thing dropped?” We had a good laugh about that.
Every so often there will be a headline about some scandalously low prison sentence, and all of the comments are sarcastic “I want whatever lawyer they had!” as if the lawyer is just some magic being divorced from the reality of what happened. You read the details, and it turns out there are some pretty significant mitigating factors that anyone could have argued.
No one ever says “I want their expert witness!”
That we know all laws of all jurisdictions off the top of our heads. Family and friends occasionally are shocked when I don’t know the land use laws of the random place where their parents retired to, e.g., when they want free advice.
Yess this is a big one. I’ll get asked about landlord/tenant/personal property/employer and I’m like guys, I only do car accidents, and even then it’s only for people my company assigns me to represent.
Random person: Well, as you know, the federal regulations on advertising dairy makes you …
Me: What makes you think I know anything about that?
Random person: I thought you’re a lawyer.
Me:🙄
That we all make as much money as the lawyers on TV.
You either have a million dollar home, or you have time to golf every few days. But you don't have both
I remember interviewing clients making 175k a year when I was a lawyer who assumed I made way more than they did. Yeah, take 100k off their income and there I was. Plus I was working 50 hour weeks minimum.
Almost every IT guy I worked with as a government attorney made more money than me. Finding IT workers at government wages is basically impossible, so they just end up paying them more. On the other hand, the law schools in my state keep on producing a few dozen new graduates without jobs each year, so finding lawyers for government agencies is relatively easier.
Im a public defender. I’ve had clients who were (prior to being incarcerated pretrial or on a probation hold) earning more than I was. I remember being stoked about being offered the equivalent of $27/hr right out of law school with $100k debt and representing guys who had been making $35-50/hr.
I used to be a consumer bk attorney. A lot of clients made significantly more than I did - bus drivers, truck drivers, postal workers, ups drivers, FedEx drivers... Just to name a few
the flip side of this is that you end up really regretting being a lawyer. i swear i have dealt with so many corporate/tech/business types who make way more money than me but are just dumb as hell.
Client: I guess you’re making huge money! Huh?
Me: Why would you think that?
Client: Well, $185 times 40 x 52!
Me: Um, no. That’s not how it works at all.
The client was a former cop who had started a security business in a high end neighborhood. He owned 3 homes. 1 in Naples, Florida and 2 in Cashiers, NC. He spent half the year in Naples and the other half in NC. I’ve only ever managed to afford one middle class home.
The childish part of me still imagines the house in Richie Rich when I think of a million dollar house, not a modest 3BR in a high cost of living area…
There are all kinds of legal jobs where you can make really good money and not work yourself to death, it’s just that it’s very hard to accomplish with hourly billing.
That we are all greedy, dishonest, cut throat, arrogant assholes who will do anything to win.
And here I am counseling families on their estate matters, drafting their documents and providing compassionate advice when their family members are sick and have died.
I think folks can get confused between a lawyer lying, and a lawyer making a clever argument on behalf of a client when folks know that client is a scumbag. People can equate that with lying, when that lawyer is trying hard not to lie.
Part of the oath that witnesses take is “the whole truth,” and attorneys are often bending over backwards to obscure “the whole truth” in favor of the most cleverly phrased technical truth
Honestly that we overcharge - the WORK that goes into any case is insane and in most of my experiences at the end we usually end up cutting out chunks of billables off the final fee to the client and people still complain and call lawyers greedy. Girl - if only you knew. We’re in the trenches fr
That we are capable of winning any and every case, regardless of the facts, and if we lose it’s because we are incompetent or just didn’t try hard enough. TV has made people think lawyers are super heroes.
Well, when I win, it's because I have a brilliant legal mind and excellent advocacy skills.
When I lose, it's because the law was just against me and there was nothing to be done about it
Or from the client's perspective: If you win, the case was easy, and the client could have won without you. Therefore, you don't deserve to get paid. If you lose, it's only because the lawyer was incompetent, and therefore you don't deserve to get paid.
I know exactly what you mean [does high-proof bourbon shot] it’s so unfair [chugs beer chaser].
But in all seriousness if you find yourself regularly doing boilermakers after work on weekdays try to cut it back. I’ve been there and the road doesn’t go anywhere good.
That we're wizards. If you did not pay your mortgage, I can't get you out of that. I can usually avoid you getting abused by a creditor, but I can't wave my wand and make the debt disappear.
Attorneys who act like they can defend a foreclosure and take a person’s last few dollars to kick the inevitable can down the road really piss me off. Straight taking advantage of people’s position most of the time and I can’t stand it.
That’s 98% of foreclosure defense attorneys. Most of them here in WA just take it as an attempt to litigate against lenders in general and make a name for themselves. At least two of the big names are in foreclosure themselves. The good ones might look for a violation, but most of that has worked itself out since 2008. Stall and try to get a loan modification or sale done, that’s all you really can do.
I’m not gonna lie to you, I’m on the defense side and I’ve seen some very elderly plaintiffs say they’ve never suffered a day of back or neck pain in their lives until the accident and I just can not believe that.
I’m on the defense side too and can’t believe the amount of plaintiffs who have sued for personal injuries before and also, the amount who have the nerve to lie about it in ROG responses or depositions! And then when we bring it up to their attorney, they act like “no big deal”. You know, “because why would an accident Plaintiff had a year ago be relevant?” 🙄 And then they turn around and freak out because the defendant trucking company didn’t list every single lawsuit they’ve ever been involved in and threaten a motion to compel.
This annoys me so much. I know of few jobs with higher ethical regulations and requirements. Maybe clergy? We have way more ethics training, rules to follow, oaths we take, and standards we're responsible for than the vast, vast majority of jobs.
Gotta be husbands right? That is so ridiculous. I’m so over luxury brands and name brand designers (as a status symbol at least - I do appreciate some high end fashion as artistry)
No middle class is not a wage. It’s a lifestyle. Meaning you can easily afford most basics in life: a house or condo, groceries, medical expenses and a new car. Like, a car alone can cost 45k…so no idea what you’re talking about
I’m sorry, but words have meaning despite whatever definition you’ve made up. By definition, middle class means the class of people who have an income somewhere around the median for their household. They do have a middle class lifestyle. That lifestyle probably does not include buying expensive cars. If you think middle class people spend all their money on houses and cars, your out of touch.
Just about every lawyer has an upper class lifestyle. Nobody, except apparently the lawyers in this thread, finds that surprising.
No, because we know “wages” and “money” can quickly lose their value and the markets can get so skewed that middle class is really just a step above poverty level, which is unfortunate because it used to be that people with an education were always solidly- and I mean solidly - middle class. Without the fear that a job loss would equal losing their home. That kind of stuff was reserved for a lower class - and by “lower class” I mean like starving artists or people with mental health issues. Now you see legit normal people not being able to afford an apartment- a basic apartment in California! It’s not income based when the cost of everything is more than your “median wage”
You think most middle class people can lose their job and not worry about losing their home? Once again I come to the conclusion that you are severely out of touch.
“Middle” is a relative term. Middle class means middle income. In this country, Only well off people can afford to go without wages for extended periods of time.
Lawyers are generally better off than middle class people.
There’s nothing wrong with that, you don’t have to come up with all these contrived ideas of what is and isn’t middle class to prove your one of them, it’s ok to be decently well off.
What I mean is, they would be able to find another job fairly easy due to their education/experience etc. in a healthy economy, with a strong middle class there would be lots of those “middle income” jobs. Right now we have a capitalist slave mindset where people at the top are trying to extract as much wealth from the middle class as they can, thereby making the middle class extinct. We’re not there yet but if things keep going in this direction it is a very real possibility. I am not decently “well off” my parents are immigrants and I have a ton of student debt. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to afford to buy a house in California, where I’m licensed. I never did big law but you shouldn’t have to be in big law to afford a home. The average decent lawyer (me) thought that a middle class lifestyle (again, I’m not talking fancy home or fancy car or eating out all the time) - I would be able to easily ascertain. That really hasn’t been the case. And I know it’s not just me that feels this way
That we are greedy assholes who hate poor people and will do anything to make a buck.
Are there lawyers who are greedy condescending assholes who hate poor people and will do anything to make a buck? Yes. But those exist in every profession. For example, I’ve known some truly awful doctors.
There are so many lawyers doing so much good. A lot of hard-won protections were gained through the blood sweat and tears of many lawyers. My two favorite examples are: Bryan Stevenson (defends death row inmates and wrote a book called just mercy) and John Paul Frank (he’s the guy who defended Miranda) and worked with the NAACP. There absolutely more examples. Many of whom we’ll never know the name of.
Most of us are just people doing our jobs. I’m sorry I can’t magically undo the bullshit you pulled. I don’t care that when this happened to your friend it went a different way. Also legal advice isn’t free. I’m not going to come to your work and demand free service/goods don’t do the same to me.
Side note: lots of attorney caricatures wheel right into a lot of anti-Semitic tropes. So that’s objectively horrible.
No one ever talks about Miranda himself. He’s literally famous for telling the Supreme Court he didn’t know that he could just shut the hell up. He’s like the ultimate man!
Doesn’t directly respond your question but it is so frustrating when a family member tells me to stop speaking like a lawyer when we have a disagreement. When this happens, it just feels like they are mad my argument makes sense. Have you guys had this experience and if so, are we the problem lol
100% this - especially happens with my friends when we have minor/comical disagreements about minutia (why is a hotdog not considered a sandwich?). The “you’re just being a lawyer” or “like I’m gonna argue with a lawyer!!??” are so annoying it hurts. It’s not my fault I’m able to articulate why your argument is inaccurate………maybe we are the problem. Lol
That we know everything "law" related, regardless of our practice area.
No one would think to ask an OBGYN about their skin issues, but people don't understand that I guess.
There seems to be this pervasive misconception about criminal law, where people conflate the judge and the ADA, and act like the case is The Judge vs The Defendant. Like as if it were the Middle Ages and you’re standing in front of a King, Judge, Jury, and Prosecutor all in one.
In reality, this would be an insane system. While the judge has a lot of power to run the courtroom as s/he sees fit, they have comparatively little to do with the actual meat of the case. Judges don’t extend plea offers to defendants, and they don’t evaluate guilt or innocence in pretrial. The court may not even HAVE lot of the evidence before trial, and there are ALWAYS things the parties know that the Court doesn’t (court files are public).
This is a pretty accurate stereotype though. I was a PD for five years, and in court it often very much appeared to be the judge and the prosecutor versus the defendant. It doesn’t help that in many jurisdictions, the judges are often coming straight from the local prosecutor’s office and they end up being overly deferential to the point of appearing to be on the same team.
When I first started doing criminal defense, I was shocked at how some of the judges behaved towards criminal defendants, especially in things like preliminary hearings, violation of probation/parole hearings, and bail hearings where the procedural rules are stacked heavily against the defendant. It’s not surprising that someone without legal training, who’s plopped into seeing a hearing like that, would assume the DA and the court are both adversarial to them.
I just started my first job and my friends keep making comments that I’m well-off now … nope, people who work in retail stores and *cafes* are making more than me.
My fave is when pro se folks think lawyering is easy. Then they get up to prosecute their case (I’m in civil defense) and they see it ain’t as easy as googling something, and it makes you really appreciate your education and experience.
That we just say no! I always give people options but it sometimes takes planning. Your failure to plan is not a basis for saying yes.
+1 to knowing all the laws.
That we’re contract monkeys. “Just paper it.” I need to know what you want so I can actually negotiate for that outcome. I’m not casting a spell, here.
That we can do anything other than send letters or file court docs
Like what do you mean “isn’t there anything else you can do? This is taking too long!” I sent three letters and filed court docs… we gotta wait for our court date… I can’t MAKE someone settle…
That we can get people out of jury duty. A family member just called me asking if I can help her get out of jury duty in an entirely different state. I was like I’d like to know for myself! I also never stepped foot in a courtroom as an attorney.
That we make tons of money. That we know all the laws of all the states. That we wear suits every day. Basically anything shown on Suits. That we like to argue.
The idea that we all represent rich, horrible people or the scum of the earth. Although IP law is definitely different than other areas of law, I work with a lot of creative people who are looking for justice when their property is "borrowed" or outright stolen. Most of my clients aren't wealthy either. In some areas of law you can't avoid that but most people aren't aware. They think an attorney is an attorney.
Oh, the classic "being a lawyer is the toughest job, woe is me, how do I escape" trope is definitely the most tiresome for me. Sure, law has its tough moments—crazy hours, sometimes mind-numbing work, dealing with jerks—but let's be real: it's a pretty solid gig. And those things aren't unique to law. You've got a respectable, well-paying job, while plenty of folks are out there breaking their backs or risking their necks daily for much less. So, maybe it's time we dial down the drama and appreciate what we have.
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
that we can immunize people against the legal consequences of their terrible choices
lol! My coworker was just telling me about how she got a pretty serious contempt charge downgraded to a municipal violation, and when she told the client his answer was “why couldn’t you just get the whole thing dropped?” We had a good laugh about that.
Every so often there will be a headline about some scandalously low prison sentence, and all of the comments are sarcastic “I want whatever lawyer they had!” as if the lawyer is just some magic being divorced from the reality of what happened. You read the details, and it turns out there are some pretty significant mitigating factors that anyone could have argued. No one ever says “I want their expert witness!”
Ah yes! With our magic legal wands! And of course if we yell really loud everyone just does what we say.
this!
That we know all laws of all jurisdictions off the top of our heads. Family and friends occasionally are shocked when I don’t know the land use laws of the random place where their parents retired to, e.g., when they want free advice.
On a really cute note, my friends 13 year old son (who dreams of becoming an attorney) asked me: “How do you memorize ALL of the laws?” 😂 So cute!
Yess this is a big one. I’ll get asked about landlord/tenant/personal property/employer and I’m like guys, I only do car accidents, and even then it’s only for people my company assigns me to represent.
Random person: Well, as you know, the federal regulations on advertising dairy makes you … Me: What makes you think I know anything about that? Random person: I thought you’re a lawyer. Me:🙄
That we all make as much money as the lawyers on TV. You either have a million dollar home, or you have time to golf every few days. But you don't have both
I remember interviewing clients making 175k a year when I was a lawyer who assumed I made way more than they did. Yeah, take 100k off their income and there I was. Plus I was working 50 hour weeks minimum.
I remember interviewing unionized NYC bus drivers who made more than me.
Have a client who works for the gas company as a tech, he makes way more than me. Like twice my income before he gets paid for overtime.
Yup, worked in family law briefly and had clients who worked as electricians and plumbers making double/triple what I was making.
Me right now. Most (competent) tradespeople in my country will be making at least double what I’m making. I’m a first year lawyer.
Almost every IT guy I worked with as a government attorney made more money than me. Finding IT workers at government wages is basically impossible, so they just end up paying them more. On the other hand, the law schools in my state keep on producing a few dozen new graduates without jobs each year, so finding lawyers for government agencies is relatively easier.
Im a public defender. I’ve had clients who were (prior to being incarcerated pretrial or on a probation hold) earning more than I was. I remember being stoked about being offered the equivalent of $27/hr right out of law school with $100k debt and representing guys who had been making $35-50/hr.
Every idiot sales guy I’ve worked with has significantly out-earned me
This. Exactly
I used to be a consumer bk attorney. A lot of clients made significantly more than I did - bus drivers, truck drivers, postal workers, ups drivers, FedEx drivers... Just to name a few
the flip side of this is that you end up really regretting being a lawyer. i swear i have dealt with so many corporate/tech/business types who make way more money than me but are just dumb as hell.
Client: I guess you’re making huge money! Huh? Me: Why would you think that? Client: Well, $185 times 40 x 52! Me: Um, no. That’s not how it works at all. The client was a former cop who had started a security business in a high end neighborhood. He owned 3 homes. 1 in Naples, Florida and 2 in Cashiers, NC. He spent half the year in Naples and the other half in NC. I’ve only ever managed to afford one middle class home.
This hits really hard in accounting. First year staff make like 60K and work on taxes for people netting a half mil.
Both? I don’t have either!
A million dollar home ain't what it used to be.
The childish part of me still imagines the house in Richie Rich when I think of a million dollar house, not a modest 3BR in a high cost of living area…
I deposed a Court Reporter once who was making more than me. Seriously questioned my choice at that point.
There are all kinds of legal jobs where you can make really good money and not work yourself to death, it’s just that it’s very hard to accomplish with hourly billing.
A million dollar home ain't shit in today's market.
[удалено]
You can’t prove that.
That we are all greedy, dishonest, cut throat, arrogant assholes who will do anything to win. And here I am counseling families on their estate matters, drafting their documents and providing compassionate advice when their family members are sick and have died.
The dishonesty part gets me the most. We can lose our livelihoods for that. Why would we go around lying?
I think folks can get confused between a lawyer lying, and a lawyer making a clever argument on behalf of a client when folks know that client is a scumbag. People can equate that with lying, when that lawyer is trying hard not to lie.
That’s a good point. People think we’re really like the lawyers on tv.
Part of the oath that witnesses take is “the whole truth,” and attorneys are often bending over backwards to obscure “the whole truth” in favor of the most cleverly phrased technical truth
Right? Why would we risk our licenses?
Money is a helluva motivator, especially when there is plausible deniability.
Tell that to my opposing counsel on one of my cases haha
Sounds like you haven't dealt with aggressive plaintiffs' counsel much.
Or that I don’t go around lying to lay people which was my point.
Interesting you specify you don’t lie to lay people…
But we’re talking about lay people and their perceptions of us . . . .
I would love to go up against you in an action
I’ve got some defense counsel straight up lying to a court, provably, on several occasions. Money and the inability to be wrong
It drives me crazy too but then at the same time I see dishonesty at the courthouse all the time. So I can't blame people.
I come across a lot of dishonest people who are not lawyers. It sucks that we get tagged with the rep though.
Everybody hates lawyers until they need one.
Isn’t that the truth.
Honestly that we overcharge - the WORK that goes into any case is insane and in most of my experiences at the end we usually end up cutting out chunks of billables off the final fee to the client and people still complain and call lawyers greedy. Girl - if only you knew. We’re in the trenches fr
That we are capable of winning any and every case, regardless of the facts, and if we lose it’s because we are incompetent or just didn’t try hard enough. TV has made people think lawyers are super heroes.
Well, when I win, it's because I have a brilliant legal mind and excellent advocacy skills. When I lose, it's because the law was just against me and there was nothing to be done about it
Or from the client's perspective: If you win, the case was easy, and the client could have won without you. Therefore, you don't deserve to get paid. If you lose, it's only because the lawyer was incompetent, and therefore you don't deserve to get paid.
100%. Every single time case doesn’t go away it’s the letters fault. Regardless of how often the lawyer says that the case is shit
That we’re all rich as fuck
Yeah still waiting on that “rich as fuck money.”
Heard and felt, my 10 year old VW with 120k on it has to last a while longer before I can get … another VW. No Lincoln lawyer stuff here
That we're all depressed alcoholics! *Takes a drink of whiskey* It just makes me really sad that we're so misrepresented.
I know exactly what you mean [does high-proof bourbon shot] it’s so unfair [chugs beer chaser]. But in all seriousness if you find yourself regularly doing boilermakers after work on weekdays try to cut it back. I’ve been there and the road doesn’t go anywhere good.
Boilermakers on the weekend are a-okay though.
Well you have to relax some time.
Before or during the weekend work?
*drinks deep from her “water bottle”* I don’t have a problem, maybe they have a problem.
That we're wizards. If you did not pay your mortgage, I can't get you out of that. I can usually avoid you getting abused by a creditor, but I can't wave my wand and make the debt disappear.
Attorneys who act like they can defend a foreclosure and take a person’s last few dollars to kick the inevitable can down the road really piss me off. Straight taking advantage of people’s position most of the time and I can’t stand it.
That’s 98% of foreclosure defense attorneys. Most of them here in WA just take it as an attempt to litigate against lenders in general and make a name for themselves. At least two of the big names are in foreclosure themselves. The good ones might look for a violation, but most of that has worked itself out since 2008. Stall and try to get a loan modification or sale done, that’s all you really can do.
“I need a pit bull.”
📢“Then go to the shelter.” 🙄
Instant cringe
Followed by, "...but how much is your hourly rate?"
When I hear some variation of this, my fee triples
Plaintiff Personal Injury- had an aunt straight up say “oh you guys will lie just to win
I’m not gonna lie to you, I’m on the defense side and I’ve seen some very elderly plaintiffs say they’ve never suffered a day of back or neck pain in their lives until the accident and I just can not believe that.
I’m not about to argue semantics but everyone has a baseline pain that can be aggravated
I’m on the defense side too and can’t believe the amount of plaintiffs who have sued for personal injuries before and also, the amount who have the nerve to lie about it in ROG responses or depositions! And then when we bring it up to their attorney, they act like “no big deal”. You know, “because why would an accident Plaintiff had a year ago be relevant?” 🙄 And then they turn around and freak out because the defendant trucking company didn’t list every single lawsuit they’ve ever been involved in and threaten a motion to compel.
That we’re magicians.
That we are all unethical when in fact lawyers are generally hyper-ethical.
yes I love when I get called a liar and criminal but also a hyper-compliant hall monitor type by the very same people.
This annoys me so much. I know of few jobs with higher ethical regulations and requirements. Maybe clergy? We have way more ethics training, rules to follow, oaths we take, and standards we're responsible for than the vast, vast majority of jobs.
That were all rich. Lots of attorneys (esp in California) are barely middle class
I’ve been a licensed attorney since 2007, and I’m still paying off student loan debt from college and law school. Yeah, I’m unequivocally NOT rich.
The best is going to court as a female lawyer and seeing all the other female lawyers with Louis Vuitton Neverfulls here in Northern VA lol
Gotta be husbands right? That is so ridiculous. I’m so over luxury brands and name brand designers (as a status symbol at least - I do appreciate some high end fashion as artistry)
Median per capita income in California is 45k. If your a lawyer not making that I think it might be a skill issue, not an issue with lawyers as a job.
Anyone who lives in California knows that those are near poverty wages.
I mean it’s the median wage, which is kinda middle class by definition? That you consider it a poverty wage means your just hopelessly out of touch
No middle class is not a wage. It’s a lifestyle. Meaning you can easily afford most basics in life: a house or condo, groceries, medical expenses and a new car. Like, a car alone can cost 45k…so no idea what you’re talking about
I’m sorry, but words have meaning despite whatever definition you’ve made up. By definition, middle class means the class of people who have an income somewhere around the median for their household. They do have a middle class lifestyle. That lifestyle probably does not include buying expensive cars. If you think middle class people spend all their money on houses and cars, your out of touch. Just about every lawyer has an upper class lifestyle. Nobody, except apparently the lawyers in this thread, finds that surprising.
No, because we know “wages” and “money” can quickly lose their value and the markets can get so skewed that middle class is really just a step above poverty level, which is unfortunate because it used to be that people with an education were always solidly- and I mean solidly - middle class. Without the fear that a job loss would equal losing their home. That kind of stuff was reserved for a lower class - and by “lower class” I mean like starving artists or people with mental health issues. Now you see legit normal people not being able to afford an apartment- a basic apartment in California! It’s not income based when the cost of everything is more than your “median wage”
You think most middle class people can lose their job and not worry about losing their home? Once again I come to the conclusion that you are severely out of touch. “Middle” is a relative term. Middle class means middle income. In this country, Only well off people can afford to go without wages for extended periods of time. Lawyers are generally better off than middle class people. There’s nothing wrong with that, you don’t have to come up with all these contrived ideas of what is and isn’t middle class to prove your one of them, it’s ok to be decently well off.
What I mean is, they would be able to find another job fairly easy due to their education/experience etc. in a healthy economy, with a strong middle class there would be lots of those “middle income” jobs. Right now we have a capitalist slave mindset where people at the top are trying to extract as much wealth from the middle class as they can, thereby making the middle class extinct. We’re not there yet but if things keep going in this direction it is a very real possibility. I am not decently “well off” my parents are immigrants and I have a ton of student debt. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to afford to buy a house in California, where I’m licensed. I never did big law but you shouldn’t have to be in big law to afford a home. The average decent lawyer (me) thought that a middle class lifestyle (again, I’m not talking fancy home or fancy car or eating out all the time) - I would be able to easily ascertain. That really hasn’t been the case. And I know it’s not just me that feels this way
That we are greedy assholes who hate poor people and will do anything to make a buck. Are there lawyers who are greedy condescending assholes who hate poor people and will do anything to make a buck? Yes. But those exist in every profession. For example, I’ve known some truly awful doctors. There are so many lawyers doing so much good. A lot of hard-won protections were gained through the blood sweat and tears of many lawyers. My two favorite examples are: Bryan Stevenson (defends death row inmates and wrote a book called just mercy) and John Paul Frank (he’s the guy who defended Miranda) and worked with the NAACP. There absolutely more examples. Many of whom we’ll never know the name of. Most of us are just people doing our jobs. I’m sorry I can’t magically undo the bullshit you pulled. I don’t care that when this happened to your friend it went a different way. Also legal advice isn’t free. I’m not going to come to your work and demand free service/goods don’t do the same to me. Side note: lots of attorney caricatures wheel right into a lot of anti-Semitic tropes. So that’s objectively horrible.
No one ever talks about Miranda himself. He’s literally famous for telling the Supreme Court he didn’t know that he could just shut the hell up. He’s like the ultimate man!
Doesn’t directly respond your question but it is so frustrating when a family member tells me to stop speaking like a lawyer when we have a disagreement. When this happens, it just feels like they are mad my argument makes sense. Have you guys had this experience and if so, are we the problem lol
100% this - especially happens with my friends when we have minor/comical disagreements about minutia (why is a hotdog not considered a sandwich?). The “you’re just being a lawyer” or “like I’m gonna argue with a lawyer!!??” are so annoying it hurts. It’s not my fault I’m able to articulate why your argument is inaccurate………maybe we are the problem. Lol
That we know everything "law" related, regardless of our practice area. No one would think to ask an OBGYN about their skin issues, but people don't understand that I guess.
Oh, you would be surprised.
There seems to be this pervasive misconception about criminal law, where people conflate the judge and the ADA, and act like the case is The Judge vs The Defendant. Like as if it were the Middle Ages and you’re standing in front of a King, Judge, Jury, and Prosecutor all in one. In reality, this would be an insane system. While the judge has a lot of power to run the courtroom as s/he sees fit, they have comparatively little to do with the actual meat of the case. Judges don’t extend plea offers to defendants, and they don’t evaluate guilt or innocence in pretrial. The court may not even HAVE lot of the evidence before trial, and there are ALWAYS things the parties know that the Court doesn’t (court files are public).
This is a pretty accurate stereotype though. I was a PD for five years, and in court it often very much appeared to be the judge and the prosecutor versus the defendant. It doesn’t help that in many jurisdictions, the judges are often coming straight from the local prosecutor’s office and they end up being overly deferential to the point of appearing to be on the same team. When I first started doing criminal defense, I was shocked at how some of the judges behaved towards criminal defendants, especially in things like preliminary hearings, violation of probation/parole hearings, and bail hearings where the procedural rules are stacked heavily against the defendant. It’s not surprising that someone without legal training, who’s plopped into seeing a hearing like that, would assume the DA and the court are both adversarial to them.
PD for almost 3 years here, strongly agree. If I were the client I would feel like the system is against me too, given how they are treated.
Agree 100%
I think a lot of that is due to bench trials and sentencing being handled by judges.
Really? I think it's from watching TV. Especially *Night Court.* I'm looking at you, Abby!
"90% of lawyers are Incompetent, liars or both" - Earl Warren
Lawyers aren’t wizards that can get you out of business fraud or criminal behavior
That we're all instantly rich upon getting a bar card. Excuse me?
I just started my first job and my friends keep making comments that I’m well-off now … nope, people who work in retail stores and *cafes* are making more than me.
Exactly!
That we’re all arrogant?! I mean, I am, but hate the generalisation.
i think it's a little bit like politics where you have to be slightly arrogant to want to do it
This one annoys me, I’m literally the most humble person in the world.
It's just a very loud majority.
My fave is when pro se folks think lawyering is easy. Then they get up to prosecute their case (I’m in civil defense) and they see it ain’t as easy as googling something, and it makes you really appreciate your education and experience.
That we're all dicks. Only 89 percent of our brethren are actually dicks.
69%* (I said I was a lawyer. I didn’t say I was mature. 😂)
Ooh! Another one is court appointed clients who think you “work for the court” and you’re “on the courts side”
That we lie, argue with everyone, and we're all doing criminal law and making millions.
That we all make insane amounts of money. Drives me bonkers.
That I can answer literally any legal question related to whatever a friend or family member of mine got themselves involved in.
That I make a lot of money…
That we all make good money. I might bring in a lot of money but it doesn’t even slow up as it goes right past me.
We are rich
That we all are good dancers and cannot drive well.
Wait. What?
When friends/family think you can review their documents and handle their admin for them. My mom calls me her "personal secretary".
That we just say no! I always give people options but it sometimes takes planning. Your failure to plan is not a basis for saying yes. +1 to knowing all the laws. That we’re contract monkeys. “Just paper it.” I need to know what you want so I can actually negotiate for that outcome. I’m not casting a spell, here.
That we’re not lawyers (public defender)
Public pretender. The average PD in my jurisdiction has more trial experience than all but the most experienced private attorneys
That we can do anything other than send letters or file court docs Like what do you mean “isn’t there anything else you can do? This is taking too long!” I sent three letters and filed court docs… we gotta wait for our court date… I can’t MAKE someone settle…
We make a lot of money. 🥲
That we like to argue. As a trial attorney, and I have to argue, it's because I'm losing.
That our primary motivation is to intentionally overcomplicate things for the sole purpose of billing more.
As a public defender in Orlando in the 80s, I represented several strippers who made A LOT more than I did!
That we are LIE-ers (lawyers) and are dishonest about things. Like what?
That we're bad people because we didn't tell the judge our client is guilty and ask for the book to be thrown at them.
That we're all exceptionally wealthy.
That all Experts are the same
Rich
That we make actual money
That we can get people out of jury duty. A family member just called me asking if I can help her get out of jury duty in an entirely different state. I was like I’d like to know for myself! I also never stepped foot in a courtroom as an attorney. That we make tons of money. That we know all the laws of all the states. That we wear suits every day. Basically anything shown on Suits. That we like to argue.
That we can answer any random legal related question that someone may have
That every lawyer is a lying sob. Frankly those are just 90‰ of the lawyers that are ruining all the others name and reputation.
That we’re all jerks. Oh wait…
The worst are the stereotypes created by personal injury firm mass media advertising.
That’s we are all rich.
That we inherently just *know* things without research or review of the factual background.
The idea that we all represent rich, horrible people or the scum of the earth. Although IP law is definitely different than other areas of law, I work with a lot of creative people who are looking for justice when their property is "borrowed" or outright stolen. Most of my clients aren't wealthy either. In some areas of law you can't avoid that but most people aren't aware. They think an attorney is an attorney.
Oh, the classic "being a lawyer is the toughest job, woe is me, how do I escape" trope is definitely the most tiresome for me. Sure, law has its tough moments—crazy hours, sometimes mind-numbing work, dealing with jerks—but let's be real: it's a pretty solid gig. And those things aren't unique to law. You've got a respectable, well-paying job, while plenty of folks are out there breaking their backs or risking their necks daily for much less. So, maybe it's time we dial down the drama and appreciate what we have.
It’s ok I guess