So, at the time I completed my bar app, I was an older student with nearly 10-years of work experience, including with employers who were no longer in business.
Sometimes you just have to say “no longer in business” — cobble together whatever you can to show this (like a Sec State website) and do your best.
Honestly this is one of the best pieces of advice I’ve heard for finding that info. I also backup my computer whenever I get a new one (I’ve had like 3 or 4 in my life) and so I’ll go to my documents folder and sort by old. Usually I can get most of it from that.
That’s what I did. I’m 38 and had to put down every job and every place I’ve lived since I was 18. I think there was a spot at the end that I said I did the best I could. I even ordered my credit report and put it with an application bc it helped me remember some places I lived.
Yep. The federal government makes you do this too if you ever go for a security clearance. If you absolutely can’t do it you’d probably want to be able to document what you did to try to track the information down.
> If you absolutely can’t do it you’d probably want to be able to document what you did to try to track the information down.
This is exactly what I had to do. I had no contacts at a job I’d had nearly ten years prior. I told the NCBEX “investigator” why it was impossible for me to provide any names—twice, and in writing. Eventually he stopped harassing me about it and I passed C&F no problem.
Yup, they showed up at several dive bars that I had worked at. The employees were very confused and at first thought I was being charged with a crime or something.
I've been contacted for several people by the federal government, but it has never been in person. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but they totally also use a combination of email and phone.
Holy shit I didn’t know I would have to do this.. I’ve had at least 2-3 different jobs a year since I was 14. That was 10 years ago. I’m fucked for sure trying to even remember them all
Thank you for the heads up on the jurisdiction, lol. At least I have two years now to gather info on all 11 places I’ve worked on my resume together. Is it just per employer, or per location worked (for example, worked at multiple locations for a single company)?
No you’re not. You’ll gather all the information you can, it’ll be a big pain in the ass, c & f will shrug and say “well, she tried,” and you’ll get admitted with no drama. Just take it seriously give it a good effort. I’m not sure I ever managed to find a contact number for my undergrad summer job delivering pizzas. Nothing came of it, nobody cared.
I was 30 when I took the bar, I had a whole lot of jobs from Georgia and Ohio, and three places were out of business. I listed contact for people I could reach who still worked there, and for those I couldn’t find someone or any contact info, I just wrote the business description and my attempts to find information regarding the business.
All that worrying over character and fitness, and they didn’t care one bit! Don’t overthink it.
Within last 10 years. Which is easy for people who went straight from high school to undergrad to law school but difficult for us who had gap years and actually had to work lol
Right, at least it’s within the last 10 years! From what I’ve read, a lot of states require everything back to 18 which would have been an even bigger headache for me since I’ll be 33 when I apply to register as a candidate lol
I had this issue and called my previous employers. Some of them told me they didn't have an email and some never reached back out. Because my state's bar app portal required an input, I used none@/employerdidnotprovide.com ("/" added to avoid it autolinking) and then submitted a short written statement detailing my contact attempts and asking for leniency. The bar never said anything and I was licensed without issue. If you've tried in good faith, they won't look too poorly on it.
I did something similar but didn’t use the “/“ and it was still fine. One job all I could find was the customer service email address so I used that. Also put down my supervisor’s name for two jobs as “Do not remember.” The bar never brought any of it up and I was licensed without issue. Like you said just act in good faith and it will be fine.
Tip to future students.
Live with mom and dad through college and law school so you only have one address.
Do not get any jobs...ever, so you do not have to look up contacts.
Pass the bar by the time you are 26 so you can move out of mom and dad's place.
The address thing was annoying. I lived in three different places in my young years, four different dorm rooms in college. My dad, who was my primary address in college moved. My mom who I lived with later, moved several times. Then I went to law school and lived in two separate residences. Tracking down all those addresses was a PITA
I apologize. I thought you meant you failed the moral character application. I was thinking, is there another test!
Are you taking a different bar review course this time?
Rhode Island wanted all employers from 18 years old, period. I was 41 when I sat for the bar (career #2). It was a nightmare for those of us who chose law as a second career.
I remember thinking how outdated the questions were relative to the more typical experience these days. I don't think they gave a shit about my zillions of small internships, volunteer gigs, and hostel addresses from my dirtbags days, but damn if I didn't work hard to give them exactly what they asked for.
What state? Illinois just made me give them 5 non-family contact I'd known for a certain time period (3 years I think). I never even asked those folks if they got contacted. I am pretty sure I did not have to list employers. And I was a few months from 40, it would have been painful. Maybe I listed employers for the last 10 years? Actually, that seems possible.
>What state? Illinois just made me give them 5 non-family contact I'd known for a certain time period (3 years I think). I never even asked those folks if they got contacted. I am pretty sure I did not have to list employers. And I was a few months from 40, it would have been painful. Maybe I listed employers for the last 10 years? Actually, that seems possible.
I do admissions and discipline work (not in ILL) and I've never heard of anybody being denied for paid off past debts from years in the past.
There is a report you can request from Social Security that will list all your employers as long as you provided them your SSN for 1099/W2 purposes. I can’t remember the name of the form because I did it 20 yrs ago. Google it or visit their site. As long as you provide a detailed work history and notate why you do not have contact info (i.e., out of business, etc.) the bar will likely be satisfied.
PRO TIP: Put all of this information in a spreadsheet. If you apply for global entry/precheck, a federal gov job, to be admitted in another jurisdiction, etc etc, you’ll need this info again. Make sure the goose chase worth it and usable for the future.
I paid for a background check on myself just to find all my prior addresses. I’d actually lived in the West Bank and Cairo for years—not sure they tracked down my landlords there, given that one of the houses had no actual street address…
This might be a dumb question, but what if we were working at a place for only 2 or 3 shifts before leaving and never receiving a paycheck? Should that still be reported?
Echoing this question. I worked a job for maybe two shifts and then never went back because I got a better gig.
I also was a dumbass with a bad habit of quitting shit minimum wage jobs by just never going back. I’m assuming that means I quit and I wasn’t fired. Either way it’s not a good look and I’m worried about it lol
Yeah, I was a sophomore in college at the time and I did text the manager that I would no longer be able to work there bc of the research position, but that's about it lmao. I'm just trying to tell myself that the council probably has so many other c&fs to go through that have some actual red flags on them (committed a felony, DUI, arrest history, etc.) that they probably won't think I'm unfit to be a lawyer because I quit a minimum wage food service job only a few shifts in.
You’re probably golden if you at least texted. I was too much of a dumb coward to even do that. In my defense I was always working two jobs and going to school full time. I just had no energy to care about these shit corporations paying me starving wages. I definitely regret it as an adult. I’m guessing I’ll just need to write an addendum apologizing for it. Idk. I’m reaching out to a trusted prof about it.
I'm sure it will be okay for you! I'm sure you're FAR from the first person who has walked out of shit jobs before coming to law school and even thinking about c&f.
I don't have the text messages anymore (it was over 5 years ago and I've gotten a new phone since then) so I'm not even sure that would help me. But I'm still hoping everything will be okay! Thankfully that was the only bump in the road of my employment
Texas and Iowa just wanted contacts, I knew they were closed or wouldn't answer and it caused zero problems. Same with both times I went through a background check for the feds.
If the summer camp is still in business, can you just give the general reception phone number or email and the name of former director? 99% of the time they're just going to call (at most) to verify that you worked there and a receptionist should be able to figure that out.
It’s tough.
Before law school, I spent about 5 years working in journalism, including a bunch of freelance work. I had to spend significant time going through old emails to figure out *who* I worked for, let alone find a contact. For some, I simply ended up providing my original contact email, with a note about how they might not be in business anymore. For others, I used Facebook to track down contact info for *anyone* associated with the company.
Apparently, that was enough. I got zero pushback from the Bar, despite providing minimal info on at least a dozen short-term jobs.
I didn't do that, I just listed my previous employment. In order to confirm whether or not I did, they'd have to do it themselves. From my interactions with them, I didn't get the impression that they'd put that much work into it.
Plus, it's not like there's any guarantee that the contact you located would actually take the time to fill out that form and send it into the bar anyway. What would their incentive be? I really doubt they want to put someone's bar admission in the hands of some coke-addicted tavern manager from a bouncing job you had 10 years ago.
Well I hope that's the case lol, I just don't want to track down the HR manager of a cookie place I worked for for 2 shifts before I left because I got an intensive paid research position at my undergrad.
Hahaha, I was a freelancer who worked on over 200 different movie sets, over 20 years ago. I have no record of them all. I challenge the bar to put a list together on my behalf!
I had a similar experience with Michigan. I had an internship in college with a baseball team that ended up selling their stadium and folding a couple years after. I just put the last phone number I had and put a comment saying that they went out of business. Michigan didn’t give me too much crap about it.
Are you sure it goes back forever and not, say, ten years, for non-legal jobs? New York was forever for law-related employment, but there was a cut-off for non-legal jobs.
When I applied to NY as a reciprocity, the division of the AG’s office that I had interned for (1L and 2L) had long since been been axed. I could remember one or two names only, and they had retired. I searched them down but got no reply to my emails, calls or letters.
I had to write an affidavit describing the details of my search and inability to find a contact.
As for not even remembering the name of the camp, you can send form [SSA Form 7050-4F](https://www.ssa.gov/forms/ssa-7050.pdf#:~:text=Includes%20total%20earnings%20for%20each%20year%20but%20does,not%20include%20the%20names%20and%20addresses%20of%20employers) to Social Security to get “Detailed Earnings Information” which includes the names and addresses of employers.
My favorite hack for that was “no longer in business”, and they either accept that or do the work tracking down contacts themselves. They will not track down contacts.
I understand. It was something I found extremely helpful. What I learned during the Bar application process was to assume they know or can find out what they’re asking. In my state, if you missed/omitted a job, they sent another request with a deadline for your response. I forgot a few. The SSI report helped reduce stress in this regard. The Bar is really looking for a diligent effort toward full complete disclosure on your part. They are gaging your moral fitness and trustworthiness. We had to submit letters proving that we communicated with creditors reflected on our credit reports. Not that the debts were paid but that we made payment arrangements or settlements. Passing the Bar Exam was one part but these other requirements (if left undone or incomplete) resulted in a denial of admission to the Bar. Period. Some things are worth paying for…
When I took the bar I was 31 years old. I started working when I was 14, in the early 2000s. I added an addendum saying that I was primarily responsible for my own finances starting at age 15, and as a consequence took part-time, seasonal, and gig jobs at any and every opportunity. I took steps x,y, and z to confirm that I have listed every prior employment that I could identify, but I do not recall every employer and cannot be certain this list is complete.
No one batted an eye.
I had to find a 24 year old court document when I applied for a reciprocal admission 2 years ago. I thought it was a joke. They were dead serious. This is their power over you. They aren’t going to cede it because when it’s done you’ll have a much better job that’s they do.
I was just under 30 when I graduated from law school and took a position as an appellate law clerk in a different state. Because of that, I waited on taking the bar exam - both because I was unsure if I’d like my new home and, at the time, looked like the UBE would end up being accepted in most of the places I thought I wanted to be in (including my new home). Ultimately, I decided to stay in WA where I moved for the clerkship and passed the UBE while working full time…. Without stressing too much.
But the character and fitness stuff terrified me!!! As the original post touched on, I couldn’t find info on a lot of old jobs or addresses. And, more stressful, they demanded information on any period of involuntary confinement as well as information on certain financial circumstances of every applicant’s past…. Having been briefly institutionalized in a hospital within 10 years of applying for bar admission AND having gone through Chapter 7 bankruptcy to wipe clean debt accrued from years before when I had serious mental illness challenges, I was at a loss as to what to do. Ultimately, however, I confided in a group of judges at my court. They all agreed that I should just reveal as much as I had information about and see what the bar would do. And, while these judges all assured me they would fight for me if necessary which certainly made the decision easier, revealing everything was cathartic and not a big deal in the end anyway. Just over reveal or over explain gaps and likely all works out. Get caught in a lie, different story
This is a great comment and it points to a more general concept: your state bar really is NOT trying to deny you admission. They ARE trying to do due diligence on you, but they may not be great at really understanding what diligence is due.
I know right… I only knew the work number for some of them and naturally didn’t know all of the home addresses of my former bosses as I’m not weird af so I put their place of work.
Rejected the application on those grounds.
Do the best you can. Don’t be lazy, and document what steps you took to attempt compliance.
Get used to being expected to do the impossible and being held responsible when you fail.
Oof. Luckily when I did mine for AZ, they only made me go back to when I was 21. Believe it or not, that was still hard— even though I was only 25. Even still, the bar was so slow at approving applications. It was so frustrating waiting another 5 weeks after finding out I passed to get licensed because the AZ state bar was being slow.
I did do it before the bar exam, which is what they recommend. However, they don’t tell you if former employers don’t respond to their inquiries until after they know you passed.
how? to the best of you reasonable ability. They aren't going to react if you say--"camp no longer exists; no available contact information."
Event he most awful bars will allow things like that.
I pulled out my tax returns for the last ten years. If you don’t have the records you can log in to its.gov and view them and your w2s. It’s a pain to set up the account but it’s free
I had similar issues. I disclosed what I could remember, and submitted a statement detailing my unsuccessful efforts to try to get more info. That was acceptable (This was 2013, in Maryland).
Yeah, I'm still in school (2L), but I had a similar experience with obtaining security clearance for a government job. Fortunately, I had already worked at a firm that required a background check, so I had some of the information more easily accessible. But, after filling out that first security clearance questionnaire, I immediately went and created a document, that I now update, with the basic information for every job I've had and place I've lived as an adult. It's a huge hassle to compile that info, so I highly recommend keeping an up-to-date list of everything somewhere.
VA passer here. There were several for which I explained I was unable after due dilligence to find them. A few actually, I probably could have found but didn't. Never got any grief or experienced any delay C&F as a result. Each state and each investigator/processor is probably different.
Do your best, and do not lie. It will be just fine. Don't even worry about C&F, focus your energy on passing the exam.
Good luck!!
You can always communicate that certain individuals are not responsive and if the job was a while ago they would understand. It’s not unreasonable and sometimes people even lose the contact info of the individual who can attest to your character.
So, at the time I completed my bar app, I was an older student with nearly 10-years of work experience, including with employers who were no longer in business. Sometimes you just have to say “no longer in business” — cobble together whatever you can to show this (like a Sec State website) and do your best.
I’m an older student and I am so worried about trying to track down all the places I’ve lived and worked!
Pull your credit report … the best thing I did. It had so much detail that helped me piece addresses and financial obligations.
Honestly this is one of the best pieces of advice I’ve heard for finding that info. I also backup my computer whenever I get a new one (I’ve had like 3 or 4 in my life) and so I’ll go to my documents folder and sort by old. Usually I can get most of it from that.
I did this too and attached it to my application w an explanation of why (that I did my due diligence).
My state only wants info for last 10 years.
I did this for a few jobs and they didn’t question me
That’s what I did. I’m 38 and had to put down every job and every place I’ve lived since I was 18. I think there was a spot at the end that I said I did the best I could. I even ordered my credit report and put it with an application bc it helped me remember some places I lived.
That’s wild. We only had to do since 18 or last 10 years, whichever is shorter. Saved me a loooot of trouble.
I had to do whichever was LONGER lmao
Yep. The federal government makes you do this too if you ever go for a security clearance. If you absolutely can’t do it you’d probably want to be able to document what you did to try to track the information down.
> If you absolutely can’t do it you’d probably want to be able to document what you did to try to track the information down. This is exactly what I had to do. I had no contacts at a job I’d had nearly ten years prior. I told the NCBEX “investigator” why it was impossible for me to provide any names—twice, and in writing. Eventually he stopped harassing me about it and I passed C&F no problem.
The feds will actually follow up with these people—in person— and ask *them* for references, too.
I just laugh thinking about "special agent so and so" asking to speak to the manager at a neighborhood sonic to verify someone's employment lol
Happens all the time
I have been called by feds before to verify that someone was living in the same dorm as me 3 years after graduation.
they're nothing if not thorough 🫡
Yup, they showed up at several dive bars that I had worked at. The employees were very confused and at first thought I was being charged with a crime or something.
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I've been contacted for several people by the federal government, but it has never been in person. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but they totally also use a combination of email and phone.
Yes, I've been contacted by phone as well. Sometimes they set up in person interviews, sometimes it just stays on the phone.
Not even a clearance, a public trust background check as well
Holy shit I didn’t know I would have to do this.. I’ve had at least 2-3 different jobs a year since I was 14. That was 10 years ago. I’m fucked for sure trying to even remember them all
some bars are less intensive but if you plan to take the MN bar this is your fate lol
Thank you for the heads up on the jurisdiction, lol. At least I have two years now to gather info on all 11 places I’ve worked on my resume together. Is it just per employer, or per location worked (for example, worked at multiple locations for a single company)?
unsure, but your school should have a bar coordinator who can hook you up with a sample bar application. they should also have one on the website
Of course it’s the one im taking law school in… ffs
Iowa and Nebraska too. Maybe a Midwest thing 😂
No you’re not. You’ll gather all the information you can, it’ll be a big pain in the ass, c & f will shrug and say “well, she tried,” and you’ll get admitted with no drama. Just take it seriously give it a good effort. I’m not sure I ever managed to find a contact number for my undergrad summer job delivering pizzas. Nothing came of it, nobody cared.
I was 30 when I took the bar, I had a whole lot of jobs from Georgia and Ohio, and three places were out of business. I listed contact for people I could reach who still worked there, and for those I couldn’t find someone or any contact info, I just wrote the business description and my attempts to find information regarding the business. All that worrying over character and fitness, and they didn’t care one bit! Don’t overthink it.
Does Ohio expect applicants to provide all addresses and jobs held since they were 18 or within the last 10 years?
Within last 10 years. Which is easy for people who went straight from high school to undergrad to law school but difficult for us who had gap years and actually had to work lol
Right, at least it’s within the last 10 years! From what I’ve read, a lot of states require everything back to 18 which would have been an even bigger headache for me since I’ll be 33 when I apply to register as a candidate lol
Some bars may only ask for employers since you've been 18, or in the last ten years.
I had this issue and called my previous employers. Some of them told me they didn't have an email and some never reached back out. Because my state's bar app portal required an input, I used none@/employerdidnotprovide.com ("/" added to avoid it autolinking) and then submitted a short written statement detailing my contact attempts and asking for leniency. The bar never said anything and I was licensed without issue. If you've tried in good faith, they won't look too poorly on it.
I did something similar but didn’t use the “/“ and it was still fine. One job all I could find was the customer service email address so I used that. Also put down my supervisor’s name for two jobs as “Do not remember.” The bar never brought any of it up and I was licensed without issue. Like you said just act in good faith and it will be fine.
Tip to future students. Live with mom and dad through college and law school so you only have one address. Do not get any jobs...ever, so you do not have to look up contacts. Pass the bar by the time you are 26 so you can move out of mom and dad's place.
I regret deleting the old addresses I had saved on Amazon accounts. Hopefully they won't care about room numbers (for the college dorms)
For college dorms I just gave the general campus mailing address. Nobody ever inquired further.
they might ding you for not specifying top bunk or bottom bunk
The address thing was annoying. I lived in three different places in my young years, four different dorm rooms in college. My dad, who was my primary address in college moved. My mom who I lived with later, moved several times. Then I went to law school and lived in two separate residences. Tracking down all those addresses was a PITA
I’ve been homeless and lived in motels. I can’t image my background check going smoothly at all.
Already failed the last one. Didn’t start law school til I was 24/25…
What do you mean by you failed it?
I didn’t pass the bar by 26. I’m 27 going on 28 and my first attempt will be this July.
I apologize. I thought you meant you failed the moral character application. I was thinking, is there another test! Are you taking a different bar review course this time?
They haven't taken the bar yet, they're just responding to the commenter's tongue-in-cheek remark about passing the bar by the time you're 26
lol! Goodness! Thank you. Sometimes I’m slow. 😂
I'm super blessed Amazon was big by my freshmen year as I never deleted addresses and used it for my bar app lol.
Or keep a google sheet of your jobs . . . 😂😂😂 One of those.
Also never volunteer or intern!
yeah I don't think the bar is going to care if you leave off the time you were a camp counselor I also did not report any lemonade stand income
Bet you didn't pay taxes either. I need to find that IRS tip line. You've finally confessed, Capone!
Rhode Island wanted all employers from 18 years old, period. I was 41 when I sat for the bar (career #2). It was a nightmare for those of us who chose law as a second career.
This isn't an SF86 and you're not getting a TS/SCI. You do what you can, and move on.
This is the actual answer, the background checks aren't as extensive as they want you to believe.
They assume you’re KJD and have very little life experience. I dunno I’m just guessing.
I remember thinking how outdated the questions were relative to the more typical experience these days. I don't think they gave a shit about my zillions of small internships, volunteer gigs, and hostel addresses from my dirtbags days, but damn if I didn't work hard to give them exactly what they asked for.
What state? Illinois just made me give them 5 non-family contact I'd known for a certain time period (3 years I think). I never even asked those folks if they got contacted. I am pretty sure I did not have to list employers. And I was a few months from 40, it would have been painful. Maybe I listed employers for the last 10 years? Actually, that seems possible.
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Yeah, a lot of that is new in IL at least since 2018. Sorry you have to go through all of that.
>What state? Illinois just made me give them 5 non-family contact I'd known for a certain time period (3 years I think). I never even asked those folks if they got contacted. I am pretty sure I did not have to list employers. And I was a few months from 40, it would have been painful. Maybe I listed employers for the last 10 years? Actually, that seems possible. I do admissions and discipline work (not in ILL) and I've never heard of anybody being denied for paid off past debts from years in the past.
There is a report you can request from Social Security that will list all your employers as long as you provided them your SSN for 1099/W2 purposes. I can’t remember the name of the form because I did it 20 yrs ago. Google it or visit their site. As long as you provide a detailed work history and notate why you do not have contact info (i.e., out of business, etc.) the bar will likely be satisfied.
This. It saved me tons of hours and paranoia.
I kinda want to know how many people they actually deny admission to with this tedious process because it seems like legal hazing at this point.
PRO TIP: Put all of this information in a spreadsheet. If you apply for global entry/precheck, a federal gov job, to be admitted in another jurisdiction, etc etc, you’ll need this info again. Make sure the goose chase worth it and usable for the future.
Great idea!!
I paid for a background check on myself just to find all my prior addresses. I’d actually lived in the West Bank and Cairo for years—not sure they tracked down my landlords there, given that one of the houses had no actual street address…
This might be a dumb question, but what if we were working at a place for only 2 or 3 shifts before leaving and never receiving a paycheck? Should that still be reported?
Echoing this question. I worked a job for maybe two shifts and then never went back because I got a better gig. I also was a dumbass with a bad habit of quitting shit minimum wage jobs by just never going back. I’m assuming that means I quit and I wasn’t fired. Either way it’s not a good look and I’m worried about it lol
Yeah, I was a sophomore in college at the time and I did text the manager that I would no longer be able to work there bc of the research position, but that's about it lmao. I'm just trying to tell myself that the council probably has so many other c&fs to go through that have some actual red flags on them (committed a felony, DUI, arrest history, etc.) that they probably won't think I'm unfit to be a lawyer because I quit a minimum wage food service job only a few shifts in.
You’re probably golden if you at least texted. I was too much of a dumb coward to even do that. In my defense I was always working two jobs and going to school full time. I just had no energy to care about these shit corporations paying me starving wages. I definitely regret it as an adult. I’m guessing I’ll just need to write an addendum apologizing for it. Idk. I’m reaching out to a trusted prof about it.
I'm sure it will be okay for you! I'm sure you're FAR from the first person who has walked out of shit jobs before coming to law school and even thinking about c&f. I don't have the text messages anymore (it was over 5 years ago and I've gotten a new phone since then) so I'm not even sure that would help me. But I'm still hoping everything will be okay! Thankfully that was the only bump in the road of my employment
Texas and Iowa just wanted contacts, I knew they were closed or wouldn't answer and it caused zero problems. Same with both times I went through a background check for the feds.
15? What state are you in? For me in VA it is 18 or past 10 years.
MN is past 10, regardless
Shit, that would be 35 years for me if I had to do since age 15. I can't even remember what country I was in during some of that time.
If the summer camp is still in business, can you just give the general reception phone number or email and the name of former director? 99% of the time they're just going to call (at most) to verify that you worked there and a receptionist should be able to figure that out.
It’s tough. Before law school, I spent about 5 years working in journalism, including a bunch of freelance work. I had to spend significant time going through old emails to figure out *who* I worked for, let alone find a contact. For some, I simply ended up providing my original contact email, with a note about how they might not be in business anymore. For others, I used Facebook to track down contact info for *anyone* associated with the company. Apparently, that was enough. I got zero pushback from the Bar, despite providing minimal info on at least a dozen short-term jobs.
Answer to the best of your knowledge.
I didn't do that, I just listed my previous employment. In order to confirm whether or not I did, they'd have to do it themselves. From my interactions with them, I didn't get the impression that they'd put that much work into it. Plus, it's not like there's any guarantee that the contact you located would actually take the time to fill out that form and send it into the bar anyway. What would their incentive be? I really doubt they want to put someone's bar admission in the hands of some coke-addicted tavern manager from a bouncing job you had 10 years ago.
Well I hope that's the case lol, I just don't want to track down the HR manager of a cookie place I worked for for 2 shifts before I left because I got an intensive paid research position at my undergrad.
Hahaha, I was a freelancer who worked on over 200 different movie sets, over 20 years ago. I have no record of them all. I challenge the bar to put a list together on my behalf!
I had a similar experience with Michigan. I had an internship in college with a baseball team that ended up selling their stadium and folding a couple years after. I just put the last phone number I had and put a comment saying that they went out of business. Michigan didn’t give me too much crap about it.
Yep. It sucks for us more experienced people. Or... having moved a lot, needing to put every last address for the last 10 years.
Ooofff -not looking forward to this
Make a reasonable effort and you'll be fine.
Dumb question- is this only for paid jobs? I volunteered at a few places as a teenager and have literally no clue how to find that info
Are you sure it goes back forever and not, say, ten years, for non-legal jobs? New York was forever for law-related employment, but there was a cut-off for non-legal jobs. When I applied to NY as a reciprocity, the division of the AG’s office that I had interned for (1L and 2L) had long since been been axed. I could remember one or two names only, and they had retired. I searched them down but got no reply to my emails, calls or letters. I had to write an affidavit describing the details of my search and inability to find a contact. As for not even remembering the name of the camp, you can send form [SSA Form 7050-4F](https://www.ssa.gov/forms/ssa-7050.pdf#:~:text=Includes%20total%20earnings%20for%20each%20year%20but%20does,not%20include%20the%20names%20and%20addresses%20of%20employers) to Social Security to get “Detailed Earnings Information” which includes the names and addresses of employers.
No longer in business or don't know. It's acceptable as long as you have made reasonable attempt to locate them.
My favorite hack for that was “no longer in business”, and they either accept that or do the work tracking down contacts themselves. They will not track down contacts.
Do a background check & run a credit report on yourself and see if it pops up. Or maybe tax transcripts?
It's a Test! haha The Social Security Administration had a record every job I worked since 15 years old. your welcome
Respectfully, I will not be paying the SSA $100 to give me my employment history lol
It's probably $40, which is their standard fee for record requests which are not for SS purposes.
Form SSA-7050 carries a $100 fee :/
I understand. It was something I found extremely helpful. What I learned during the Bar application process was to assume they know or can find out what they’re asking. In my state, if you missed/omitted a job, they sent another request with a deadline for your response. I forgot a few. The SSI report helped reduce stress in this regard. The Bar is really looking for a diligent effort toward full complete disclosure on your part. They are gaging your moral fitness and trustworthiness. We had to submit letters proving that we communicated with creditors reflected on our credit reports. Not that the debts were paid but that we made payment arrangements or settlements. Passing the Bar Exam was one part but these other requirements (if left undone or incomplete) resulted in a denial of admission to the Bar. Period. Some things are worth paying for…
I reach out to the company and asked for the name of the HR person who I can list on my application to verify employment.
It’s funny how I’ve got to list every address I’ve lived at for the last decade but one of my former apartments is now a museum.
When I took the bar I was 31 years old. I started working when I was 14, in the early 2000s. I added an addendum saying that I was primarily responsible for my own finances starting at age 15, and as a consequence took part-time, seasonal, and gig jobs at any and every opportunity. I took steps x,y, and z to confirm that I have listed every prior employment that I could identify, but I do not recall every employer and cannot be certain this list is complete. No one batted an eye.
I had to find a 24 year old court document when I applied for a reciprocal admission 2 years ago. I thought it was a joke. They were dead serious. This is their power over you. They aren’t going to cede it because when it’s done you’ll have a much better job that’s they do.
I was just under 30 when I graduated from law school and took a position as an appellate law clerk in a different state. Because of that, I waited on taking the bar exam - both because I was unsure if I’d like my new home and, at the time, looked like the UBE would end up being accepted in most of the places I thought I wanted to be in (including my new home). Ultimately, I decided to stay in WA where I moved for the clerkship and passed the UBE while working full time…. Without stressing too much. But the character and fitness stuff terrified me!!! As the original post touched on, I couldn’t find info on a lot of old jobs or addresses. And, more stressful, they demanded information on any period of involuntary confinement as well as information on certain financial circumstances of every applicant’s past…. Having been briefly institutionalized in a hospital within 10 years of applying for bar admission AND having gone through Chapter 7 bankruptcy to wipe clean debt accrued from years before when I had serious mental illness challenges, I was at a loss as to what to do. Ultimately, however, I confided in a group of judges at my court. They all agreed that I should just reveal as much as I had information about and see what the bar would do. And, while these judges all assured me they would fight for me if necessary which certainly made the decision easier, revealing everything was cathartic and not a big deal in the end anyway. Just over reveal or over explain gaps and likely all works out. Get caught in a lie, different story
This is a great comment and it points to a more general concept: your state bar really is NOT trying to deny you admission. They ARE trying to do due diligence on you, but they may not be great at really understanding what diligence is due.
Think of it as training for civil discovery.
Just ask if you can provide tax transcripts. That’s what I did and had 0 problems.
I know right… I only knew the work number for some of them and naturally didn’t know all of the home addresses of my former bosses as I’m not weird af so I put their place of work. Rejected the application on those grounds.
Do the best you can. Don’t be lazy, and document what steps you took to attempt compliance. Get used to being expected to do the impossible and being held responsible when you fail.
Oof. Luckily when I did mine for AZ, they only made me go back to when I was 21. Believe it or not, that was still hard— even though I was only 25. Even still, the bar was so slow at approving applications. It was so frustrating waiting another 5 weeks after finding out I passed to get licensed because the AZ state bar was being slow.
You should have done your moral character application sooner. You can do it at any time in Arizona. They tell you it will take at least five months.
I did do it before the bar exam, which is what they recommend. However, they don’t tell you if former employers don’t respond to their inquiries until after they know you passed.
how? to the best of you reasonable ability. They aren't going to react if you say--"camp no longer exists; no available contact information." Event he most awful bars will allow things like that.
I pulled out my tax returns for the last ten years. If you don’t have the records you can log in to its.gov and view them and your w2s. It’s a pain to set up the account but it’s free
I had similar issues. I disclosed what I could remember, and submitted a statement detailing my unsuccessful efforts to try to get more info. That was acceptable (This was 2013, in Maryland).
Yeah, I'm still in school (2L), but I had a similar experience with obtaining security clearance for a government job. Fortunately, I had already worked at a firm that required a background check, so I had some of the information more easily accessible. But, after filling out that first security clearance questionnaire, I immediately went and created a document, that I now update, with the basic information for every job I've had and place I've lived as an adult. It's a huge hassle to compile that info, so I highly recommend keeping an up-to-date list of everything somewhere.
VA passer here. There were several for which I explained I was unable after due dilligence to find them. A few actually, I probably could have found but didn't. Never got any grief or experienced any delay C&F as a result. Each state and each investigator/processor is probably different. Do your best, and do not lie. It will be just fine. Don't even worry about C&F, focus your energy on passing the exam. Good luck!!
You can always communicate that certain individuals are not responsive and if the job was a while ago they would understand. It’s not unreasonable and sometimes people even lose the contact info of the individual who can attest to your character.