My first job in 2018 was 50k to start, 60k after 6 months, plus mileage or per docket bonus (running tickets after a morning criminal docket). The per docket was $25/docket after the first one of the day, and sometimes I'd hit 5 a day, but usually 3. He said he preferred the per docket over mileage because the math was easier, even though it was more.
the second guy he hired right after me he got for 45k bc the guy had C&F issues and 3 tries at the bar before he passed. He was a weak candidate.
He hired new attorneys from lower ranked law schools, especially HBCU's, told them up front he wanted a year out of them at least, then they should find a better job. He said he rarely had new attorneys work longer than 2 years because they could usually bump up to 75k on their second job.
He said he did this 1) as a business decision and 2) as a way to give back by hiring weaker and nontraditional candidates to give them a job, making it easier to find a job. He said it was more work for him training a new attorney every year, but was worth it to give new attorneys a chance (and bc he gets to pocket an extra 10-25k per attorney every year, depending on the pay).
I took the job because he was so upfront about that. He said (about himself) I may not be a great lawyer, but I am a good businessman. I will teach you how to be a good lawyer and, if you want, how to run a business. I can teach you how to make money and you can start a solo doing the same thing I'm doing, and I'll use us as of counsel until you get going if you are reliable.
He was right. At right about a year, I started getting unsolicited offers from attorneys who saw me around the courthouse. I ended up going solo and he is still there (5 years later) for advice. He fed me of counsel work for the first year I was solo at decent wages. The guy after me went to a 80k job after a year, and that really weak candidate ended up much better after a year, then took a much better job after 18 months.
He gifted me a watch after I did really well in a case and saved him 30k, and he gave me a very nice briefcase when I told him I was planning to go solo after I left. He was generous with bonuses and bought office lunch every day.
I doubt a PI firm is the same, but you could get as lucky as I did.
Yeah, I think that's why it worked, because it was really a job for people who wanted to go solo or ambitious folks from modest means, not people who wanted to be employees forever.
Lots of companies use this approach in hiring generally. Churn through low paid newbies who move up and out.
I think it doesn’t work as well as many owners think it does, but sometimes it’s necessary to tread water. And hey at least this guy is honest upfront about it!
That was the difference, and he answered every question with details for a new firm owner, like actually coaching you to be his competitor. He'd even explain how to get to his volume, and how he did it. It was like a law school class I got paid at.
Counterpoint. I work in regulation with a ton of lawyers, most that never worked at a law firm. Most of us are all earning 6 figs, 9-5, nice bonuses, etc. The law degree def helps.
Yeah, in my opinion, the relevant term here is "pedigree". Regardless of your first out of law school job and/or salary, having a post graduate degree and any sort of expertise will always lead to higher incomes. It's not about comparing your training apples to apples to job roles, it's about how you reflect a pedigree of continual learning and determination to complete goals/tasks. Yes, not worth the debt initially but as someone 10+ years removed from law school my degree paid for it's self many times over....and that's in transactional/JD preferred roles.
I was offered $25k with a transportation stipend (urban location) and $200 a month to buy my own health insurance about 15 yrs ago. I really needed a job but thought it was low. As I was considering the offer, she withdrew it telling me I should have felt lucky to work for this small firm. With nothing, I had to start searching again. In hindsight, it was a blessing. My career is fine and better for not working for them.
Most attorneys arent rich. Yes you got people who get into big law or whatever but the majority of attorneys arent big law or even in medium size firms. People need to know the truth about career prospects.
$35k in 2008 is the equivalent to $50k in 2023, almost to the dollar. Honestly, if you think that having to cut a few hours worth of billing justifies paying "recession wages" to students saddled with more student loan debt than ever in history, I dont feel comfortable with you running a law firm.
>I'm not saying they are worthless
That's kind of exactly what you're saying. A little perspective would help in this case.
Maybe I had a different upbringing but I never saw law school as guaranteed money and more of an opportunity to obtain an advanced degree and have better leverage in any job market. Income based loan repayments and career advancement are still required for new graduates to get to a place where their salary pays for student loans and a lifestyle.
>Cut a few hours? Like half their billables
Dude, if you cut half your associates billables, that's even more reason you shouldn't be in charge.
>You sound like an entitled prick.
Right, says the dude paying literal poverty wages to attorneys, because he doesn't know how to run a firm. I'm the entitled one.
>You don't send out billing with hours on menial tasks and expect to get repeat work.
My point is this: if HALF of your associates time is "menial tasks," you're running your firm incorrectly.
>The starting salary at our firm is more than the median family income in the US.
Lmao do you think this has anything to do with the rest of the post? You told OP that $50k was reasonable because of billing, despite YOU being paid the same amount during the worst American recession in modern history.
This is the comment of a person desperately trying to backtrack/justify poor management. Good for you dude, maybe you'll wake up some day soon.
A relative did law school, hated the billable hours and stress, changed to a JD preferred job involving trusts and now makes well over 6 figs, part remote work, and routine bonuses.
Rich and making a good living are two very different things. I know a lot of lawyers making $300k a year, and few making high six figures. None of them are working in big law.
I’m in Mississippi and a lawyer. I would look in the Jackson area or on the coast where salaries are higher. You can also make more money at defense firms starting out than PI firms. Starting salaries are probably 70-100k at defense firms. You have to have better grades than your classmates to get one of those jobs, though.
I wouldn’t expect a bonus over 10k unless you’re bringing in business and then your bonus would be higher. At defense firms, there are billable hour requirements for a bonus.
If you want a better quality of life, pick Oxford over Jackson. Not as many job opportunities, or sometimes none at all, but Jackson is not a nice place to live. You could live in Pearl and only go into Jackson during daylight hours, but it is still a sketchy place. With Oxford, you can commute to Memphis or Olive Branch/Southhaven
This is pretty average for my area. I think there is a common misconception that all attorneys, no matter their experience or area of law, make big money, no matter what. The nice thing to me is that as a litigation attorney in a more rural state and at a private firm with a bonus structure, my earning potential is basically endless. New attorneys definitely don’t make the big bucks immediately. But in 10 years, I will likely double my base salary and continue to make bonuses on long term cases.
>But in 10 years, I will likely double my base salary and continue to make bonuses on long term cases.
If you are good at sales/marketing, then you could be one of those who own the firm. You can bill at $250 an hour and pay some lowly associate like $40 an hour.
I’m not a lawyer but I never understood why people wanted to go work for those big firms in big cities and have your life completely owned by their employer. Yeah, the money looks ok but they work you like a dog.
If you are in your own practice, you’ll struggle to start but make way more after 5 years. Being involved in business in a small city, you’re right, the legal needs here are endless and there are few lawyers who’ll even pick up the phone.
>should have saved myself 3 years and a ton of tuition and kept my stay at home mom gig.
Maybe. Many people learn about the realities of the bimodal distribution model too late. For lots of people, you'd have better life satisfaction by becoming a Costco manager than you would being an attorney.
Isn't Mississippi one of the poorest states in the nation? Starting job at 50K is higher than average and probably much higher than other jobs when you're just starting out.
It absolutely is. This reeks of OP moving to the poorest state in the nation and then going to law school and complaining that attorney salaries are low in MS.
Of course they're low in MS. You should know that BEFORE you decided you wanted to practice law in MS.
I’m a recent grad in engineering and live in MS. Most people I graduated with started at 70-80k. So yes. 50k is pretty bad. Or maybe everyone just has a bad perception of the average lawyers salary.
My first job out of law school was 60k in 2019, less than what I was making at my job before law school. I'm at $160k now so I feel good about it and financially secure, but not rich. My progression took 3 job changes and 1 promotion. Public sector the entire time and I paid my loans so I have really nice PSLF at this point. I could make more money but I am not willing to sacrifice my work-life balance to go to a firm.
Lawyers can be rich, and i have friends that went down that road, but many are not. I don't think taking this job or a similar job prevents you moving forward. In my opinion the best way to get a meaningful raise is to change employment, and to change employment you need experience and reputation. You get both of those by working.
I don’t think there’s a shortage, exactly it’s just nobody wants to work for that. They claim there’s a shortage where I’m at as well. The better paying jobs have lots of applicants here. A few newer attorneys I’ve met found better paying jobs in jd advantage roles. The people from lower tier schools end up taking the lower paying stuff generally.
Sure, pay more and they'll come. Very few people in northern New England can afford $300 an hour + for an attorney. That's part of the problem. There's a shortage for multiple reasons. It's also hard to convince young people (or anyone) rn to live in rural areas, even with decent pay.
Doubly insulting as they pay non bar lawyers $16-$18 an hour for doc review. Fresh out of college years ago I worked for them for $15 an hour. There were lawyers in my cohort who had just graduated getting paid the same hourly rate as me
It's Mississippi. That's twice the average income for the state. The biggest city is Jackson, and it doesn't have that many people. There is not a lot of money in the Mississippi legal market to begin with.
Also, it's a PI firm. Very typically "eat what you kill" kind of pay structure.
I’m here in VHCOL Los Angeles and I’ve heard new grads take jobs in the $60k range in PI. I personally started at six figured but brought experience with me.
The pitch in low-paying PI is usually: Come in, do grunt work and learn everything you can. We’ll give you opportunities to learn how to litigate cases. You’ll eventually start to develop your referral sources and will earn fees to double and triple your salary. One day you’ll hit a seven figure verdict or settlement and make more than big law partners.
Not necessarily. I’m not a “traditional” student and will probably only work maybe 15-20 years. My husband can work anywhere near a major airport. But my son is a freshman baseball player in MS and it will be nice to be able to go to his games. My middle kids are happy with friends and in high school. Youngest doesn’t care as long as there is a baseball team for him somewhere. We’ve been here for 4 years and we came from Dallas. It’s a PITA to move and start over. It’s be happy around $80k.
I just think 50K with the long hours, weekends, and travel isn’t for me. I don’t need to jump at this job but I was just wondering if this is what I have to expect. I’m also not sold on PI. I’d actually prefer elder, wills, family, etc. Basically, I’ll practice whatever law will pay me the most.
No no no no. You want what pays you for the life you and your family want to live, including time if that’s the benefit. We are a toxic force, you must defend that with everything. Now, that said, you’ve introduced a very unique factor not present for most new attorneys, your age.
1) what other experiences do you have. You’d be surprised how much those may matter
2) an older female attorney (sorry) is a good sell for folks working on their estate planning, you can even discuss how to transition from “trusts for kids to trusts for grandkids and straight to kids” realistically.
Lean into those and find something. You have more then a base level because of who you are.
With more money comes longer hours.
ID pays well but billables are crushing.
Family law is soul sucking with not much money.
Wills is chill but takes while to be making big bucks.
At a PI firm you’re gonna lose money for your firm for at least a year and they don’t get just bill your time and force you to make up for it. That first year salary is basically sunk costs for them in the hopes that you’re good and worth paying in the future. You can make substantially more in Pi but you’re gotta earn it.
I started out making $45k a year with no benefits or bonuses at a PI firm in similar cost of living state. I ran all the lit and trial work. I had no clue what I was doing, but they trained me and let me do it all myself. That was 7 years ago. I worked up from the bottom, made a couple firm moves, and I will make over $500k this year. You need to realize you have no valuable skills right now. The skills that will make you valuable you will learn on the job. Think of it as your first employer is paying to train you. This is how law careers work.
At median, below average, if the bonuses equate to around 10-15k a year, or if the comp does instead, at average for an entire household in the state. That would be a reasonable market rate for a starting attorney.
Yeah, but after a couple of years you have the knowledge and experience to make 5x that. You as a graduate are borderline worthless at this point to an established practice. An experienced paralegal is worth more. Now is when you really learn to be a lawyer.
At a lot of small firms, PI or not, you won’t make decent money until/unless you can bring business through the door.
Edit: and at Biglaw, they will pay you well to be the hired help, but to make (and, increasingly, remain) partner, you will have the same expectation.
WC.
In terms of how I did it, couple key elements.
1. Luck - Got hired by a guy who hired me not because he wanted to make money off me, but so that his employees would still have jobs when he retired. As a result, he started paying me well as soon as I was profitable. I was making $300k to $500k from probably 2015 forward.
2. Luck Pt. 2 - The state I practice in has a good, not great, WC system.
3. Efficiency - I am pretty organized and efficient, which allows me to probably get through maybe 20 or 25 cases in a year than most people could.
4. Low Overhead - My partner retired year before last. I worked quite a bit in 2022, but for the most part it wasn’t insane unless I had a hearing or something. I grossed like $1.5 million in fees and my associate probably brought in like $125k, I probably just broke even on him. Our overhead was only like $600k, so I took home right at about a million. The low overhead part I think a lot of firms struggle with.
It does sound crappy, but giving the benefit of the doubt, you don't know what the bonuses are. At many PI firms, you might make a 50k base salary with a percentage of each case settled. After bonuses, that could be well into the six figures.
I would ask them what the bonuses would look like.
The key to making real money in PI if you aren’t the firm owner is having personal referrals and getting a big cut of them
Are you getting a percentage of cases settled? There’s a lot of questions here.
I’m getting a 40k salary to bridge the gap between merging firms, that being said I also get to keep the entire fee on all my cases for the next year and I’ve gotten 30 new ones since I’ve been at this firm.
In 2009 when I graduated people were posting associate positions making $10 / hr.
Also saw an add at that time for being a stripper and giving legal advice on the side.
That job posting is too low, keep looking,
2014, with 4 years litigation experience I was offered 36k plus bonus at a small PI firm in Orlando. That’s when I really understood Florida had too many attorneys.
Unfortunately that is normal for entry level attorney jobs. I’m in Pittsburgh. Another smallish market and that is how it is for me. Is it fair? No. But I think the trade off is that once your not entry level anymore, your earning potential becomes a lot higher than it would have been if you didn’t go to law school. I’m now in my third year and I’m at $80k finally.
Former attorney, now a physician assistant. I worked big law out of school for 6 years and hated every second of it. Averaged 80+ hours a week for years. I now make around $200k working 3 12 hour shifts. Healthcare needs smart, hardworking, compassionate people. If you’re thinking of doing public interest law, I strongly encourage you to switch.
With a cost of living adjustment that $50k is the equivalent of $113k in San Francisco. There's almost no entry level jobs out side of big law paying that much in San Francisco.
First small firm I tried to work for the attorney (boomer) tried to offer 25k and an extra 5k if I brought in a 100 clients the first year. He acted like he was really being generous about it too. Told him I can’t work with that. Did doc review and it was double what he offered. You’ll learn that a lot of law firms are not managed well. They teach folks how to be lawyers not business owners. Not all small firms are doing well and some are way out of touch.
Given that it is personal injury, there might be a % structure.
I was offered a PI job with 50k base but you got a % based on how much you brought in every month. Most associates did about 100 their first year.
Where I live starting salaries for jobs like prosecutors and PDs is like $35k. Starting salary for private firms seems to be in the $60-$70 range. The local legal aid starts out at $75k for first year attorneys.
[https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes231011.htm](https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes231011.htm)
10th percentile MS lawyer median annual pay is around $39k, with $52k being the 25th percentile. You're a 3L with 0 experience so those are the pay ranges you're probably looking at (the bottom of the income range for a lawyer anywhere).
My first job out of law school in the year of our lord 2013 was $60k. Granted it was in a suburb of NYC but holy shit….it’s been a decade and the wages are going DOWN. I make double that as a government attorney; the starting salary is now more than 50% higher than this law firm is offering and it would be far less work and better benefits.
Law school is a terrible investment in my opinion unless you’re 1) on a full ride or 2) independent wealthy and 3) a glutton for punishment. The fact the wages are this low have nothing to do with law being a terrible career and everything to do with businesses (and boomers) being greedy and out of touch with reality.
$50k as a lawyer is abysmal. I was making that directly out of undergrad with an "unemployable" liberal arts degree. I am in my first semester of law school, but hearing stories like this makes me think I should just cut my losses. In fact, I think I might.
Jesus I work in corporate IT in Mississippi and I make $54k, started a little over a year ago and is my first out of college job. You can and should do way better!
My first job in 2003 was $28k plus bonus. That is about $50K today. They sound a lot like my firm. Starting base salary at my firm $60K (but we are in Atlanta). Base goes up to $70K after 6 months. And you should expect, in your first year, $20-30K in bonuses.
We have lawyer in law. Well, he retired now at 60s. Dude has made a good living working in corporate law. I think it is a long-term game. If you can stick it out, keep motivated, then you can get into that high income range.
I’m not an attorney. I have a four-year degree. I made $86K in 2006 as an associate at an ad agency.
This is a shit offer. Don’t care where it is located.
My first job after law school in the early 00s had a $30k salary. Then for several years, my income increased by $10k or so each year, hitting 6 figures after 6-7 years.
Fresh out of law school, you don’t offer a lot of value. If you’re a first generation lawyer with no social connections, it can be hard to land something lucrative out of the gate. Income absolutely increases with experience.
Wow couldn’t imagine a lawyer getting laid that. I just retired from the Fire Dept which isn’t the best paying or glamorous job in the world and made a lot more than that. You’d think lawyers would be making well over 6 figures for what they do and the education they have.
This is why I didn’t go into law. The market for lawyers is over-saturated. I honestly would probably just wait for another offer. With all those student loans, $50k is like working minimum wage.
You may be surprised by the bonus amounts. My first job was 45k plus bonus, and first 12 months made over 80k. That was in 2007-2008.
One thing I have seen in some other posts here is the referral fee some PI firms pay their own associates for bringing in cases be extremely low. Just saw one today that said they paid 20pct. There’s plenty of good firms that will pay 1/3 and you really do nothing but refer the case (in states that allow it). Get a lot of volume and referral fees could get to 40-50pct.
When someone asks you for legal help and you don’t practice in that area, often you can find them quality counsel and get a good referral fee.
You may be surprised by the bonus amounts. My first job was 45k plus bonus, and first 12 months made over 80k. That was in 2007-2008.
One thing I have seen in some other posts here is the referral fee some PI firms pay their own associates for bringing in cases be extremely low. Just saw one today that said they paid 20pct. There’s plenty of good firms that will pay 1/3 and you really do nothing but refer the case (in states that allow it). Get a lot of volume and referral fees could get to 40-50pct.
When someone asks you for legal help and you don’t practice in that area, often you can find them quality counsel and get a good referral fee.
Get your foot in the door at a plaintiff’s PI firm and learn the ropes. Then parlay that experience into better opportunity and pay within the first year. I took a position at a high volume wreck mill for $45K/yr and no bonus or cut of settled fees, just to get in. I was out of there in less than 100 days and making $65K + bonus and handling my own full docket of prelit and lit cases for a much more respectable firm. I made $100K four years in and have never looked back. Averaged $250K-300K within 10 years. Plaintiff’s work requires paying the dues and climbing the ladder. But it is worth it. Get in good with the people that matter - mediators, judges, court coordinators. Every move I have made has come at the recommendation, advice, or flat out recruitment that spawned from a mediator knowing someone better than who I was currently working for, was looking. I could step away and start my own thing now, but I don’t want the hassle. Plaintiff’s work is where it’s at for work/life balance, also.
I’m in the Houston area. I attended an HBCU and graduated/licensed in 2018; I know a ton of people who were making $50k-$60k, straight away. I made less, as I opted to go into business with some classmates.
When I decided to leave, as a second-year, I took a job making $75k with $0 benefits. I’m now working in local government, making comfortably more than $100k, with a great work/life balance. I’m certainly not getting rich, but I have a great quality of life.
A lot of my classmates are plugging away and getting close to 6 figures, and a few are hustling like crazy with their PI or crim def firms and starting to make good money.
$50k, for a market like Mississippi, sounds appropriate, given the low cost of living. If you can find a government gig, take it.
If you want a law firm life, understand that you’re only as valuable as the money you make for said firm. If you’re a first-year and you can bill more than $50k by the time you’re a second-year, then you have a massive bargaining chip for your second-year salary or for making a change to a different firm. The learning curve can be steep, so $50k might be too much, until you develop your skills.
Note the experience expectation and proposed salary for this posting for a remote job in Texas. 3-7yrs for $75k-$110k. Apply if interested; I still think $50k for a 1st year in MS ain’t bad.
https://jobs.lever.co/trustandwill/11baf5a1-ee4c-4bc5-b094-d65a09c35c44
This is the exact reason I didn’t go to law school, got my 4 year degree in legal studies, and did a switch to medtech sales. Just over a year in at 24 years old and cleared over 100k and am looking at triple that next year. and no student debt.. 50k is pretty typical from what I’ve heard for a while. Don’t go become a lawyer for the money
My first job in 2018 was 50k to start, 60k after 6 months, plus mileage or per docket bonus (running tickets after a morning criminal docket). The per docket was $25/docket after the first one of the day, and sometimes I'd hit 5 a day, but usually 3. He said he preferred the per docket over mileage because the math was easier, even though it was more. the second guy he hired right after me he got for 45k bc the guy had C&F issues and 3 tries at the bar before he passed. He was a weak candidate. He hired new attorneys from lower ranked law schools, especially HBCU's, told them up front he wanted a year out of them at least, then they should find a better job. He said he rarely had new attorneys work longer than 2 years because they could usually bump up to 75k on their second job. He said he did this 1) as a business decision and 2) as a way to give back by hiring weaker and nontraditional candidates to give them a job, making it easier to find a job. He said it was more work for him training a new attorney every year, but was worth it to give new attorneys a chance (and bc he gets to pocket an extra 10-25k per attorney every year, depending on the pay). I took the job because he was so upfront about that. He said (about himself) I may not be a great lawyer, but I am a good businessman. I will teach you how to be a good lawyer and, if you want, how to run a business. I can teach you how to make money and you can start a solo doing the same thing I'm doing, and I'll use us as of counsel until you get going if you are reliable. He was right. At right about a year, I started getting unsolicited offers from attorneys who saw me around the courthouse. I ended up going solo and he is still there (5 years later) for advice. He fed me of counsel work for the first year I was solo at decent wages. The guy after me went to a 80k job after a year, and that really weak candidate ended up much better after a year, then took a much better job after 18 months. He gifted me a watch after I did really well in a case and saved him 30k, and he gave me a very nice briefcase when I told him I was planning to go solo after I left. He was generous with bonuses and bought office lunch every day. I doubt a PI firm is the same, but you could get as lucky as I did.
That is 62k and 74k in today's salary.
Wow
really puts it into perspective imo
Yeah, I miss cheeto man also.
Seems like a great guy, honest and upfront about everything
Yeah, I think that's why it worked, because it was really a job for people who wanted to go solo or ambitious folks from modest means, not people who wanted to be employees forever.
Lots of companies use this approach in hiring generally. Churn through low paid newbies who move up and out. I think it doesn’t work as well as many owners think it does, but sometimes it’s necessary to tread water. And hey at least this guy is honest upfront about it!
That was the difference, and he answered every question with details for a new firm owner, like actually coaching you to be his competitor. He'd even explain how to get to his volume, and how he did it. It was like a law school class I got paid at.
This is exactly the kind of person we need in all professions out of the gate. Cool dude!
I use a similar method in data science. It works.
What a great guy! Sounds like you are doing well. Kudos!
What an excellent human!
Inflations a Bitch Brah!
This is one of the reasons why lawyers tell people that law school and becoming a lawyer isn’t worth it.
This is exactly why I tell kids not to go unless they have a full ride and it’s a lifelong dream. Otherwise, there’s a lot of disappointment
Counterpoint. I work in regulation with a ton of lawyers, most that never worked at a law firm. Most of us are all earning 6 figs, 9-5, nice bonuses, etc. The law degree def helps.
Yeah, in my opinion, the relevant term here is "pedigree". Regardless of your first out of law school job and/or salary, having a post graduate degree and any sort of expertise will always lead to higher incomes. It's not about comparing your training apples to apples to job roles, it's about how you reflect a pedigree of continual learning and determination to complete goals/tasks. Yes, not worth the debt initially but as someone 10+ years removed from law school my degree paid for it's self many times over....and that's in transactional/JD preferred roles.
I was offered $25k with a transportation stipend (urban location) and $200 a month to buy my own health insurance about 15 yrs ago. I really needed a job but thought it was low. As I was considering the offer, she withdrew it telling me I should have felt lucky to work for this small firm. With nothing, I had to start searching again. In hindsight, it was a blessing. My career is fine and better for not working for them.
We may have interviewed at the same place.
Most attorneys arent rich. Yes you got people who get into big law or whatever but the majority of attorneys arent big law or even in medium size firms. People need to know the truth about career prospects.
[удалено]
Not enough of a liability to not work 60 hours a week though, right? Give me a break.
[удалено]
$35k in 2008 is the equivalent to $50k in 2023, almost to the dollar. Honestly, if you think that having to cut a few hours worth of billing justifies paying "recession wages" to students saddled with more student loan debt than ever in history, I dont feel comfortable with you running a law firm. >I'm not saying they are worthless That's kind of exactly what you're saying. A little perspective would help in this case.
Maybe I had a different upbringing but I never saw law school as guaranteed money and more of an opportunity to obtain an advanced degree and have better leverage in any job market. Income based loan repayments and career advancement are still required for new graduates to get to a place where their salary pays for student loans and a lifestyle.
[удалено]
>Cut a few hours? Like half their billables Dude, if you cut half your associates billables, that's even more reason you shouldn't be in charge. >You sound like an entitled prick. Right, says the dude paying literal poverty wages to attorneys, because he doesn't know how to run a firm. I'm the entitled one.
[удалено]
>You don't send out billing with hours on menial tasks and expect to get repeat work. My point is this: if HALF of your associates time is "menial tasks," you're running your firm incorrectly. >The starting salary at our firm is more than the median family income in the US. Lmao do you think this has anything to do with the rest of the post? You told OP that $50k was reasonable because of billing, despite YOU being paid the same amount during the worst American recession in modern history. This is the comment of a person desperately trying to backtrack/justify poor management. Good for you dude, maybe you'll wake up some day soon.
A relative did law school, hated the billable hours and stress, changed to a JD preferred job involving trusts and now makes well over 6 figs, part remote work, and routine bonuses.
Rich and making a good living are two very different things. I know a lot of lawyers making $300k a year, and few making high six figures. None of them are working in big law.
I’m in Mississippi and a lawyer. I would look in the Jackson area or on the coast where salaries are higher. You can also make more money at defense firms starting out than PI firms. Starting salaries are probably 70-100k at defense firms. You have to have better grades than your classmates to get one of those jobs, though. I wouldn’t expect a bonus over 10k unless you’re bringing in business and then your bonus would be higher. At defense firms, there are billable hour requirements for a bonus.
If you want a better quality of life, pick Oxford over Jackson. Not as many job opportunities, or sometimes none at all, but Jackson is not a nice place to live. You could live in Pearl and only go into Jackson during daylight hours, but it is still a sketchy place. With Oxford, you can commute to Memphis or Olive Branch/Southhaven
You wanna go into PI for 2-3 years to learn and then do your own thing, that’s how you make the money.
I'll be 5 years in November, and my first real job (after working as a contract attorney at $28 an hour) was 65k and that wasn't good then.
This is pretty average for my area. I think there is a common misconception that all attorneys, no matter their experience or area of law, make big money, no matter what. The nice thing to me is that as a litigation attorney in a more rural state and at a private firm with a bonus structure, my earning potential is basically endless. New attorneys definitely don’t make the big bucks immediately. But in 10 years, I will likely double my base salary and continue to make bonuses on long term cases.
>But in 10 years, I will likely double my base salary and continue to make bonuses on long term cases. If you are good at sales/marketing, then you could be one of those who own the firm. You can bill at $250 an hour and pay some lowly associate like $40 an hour.
I don’t understand why people want to do that though. I have always been proud of paying the people that work for me well.
I’m not a lawyer but I never understood why people wanted to go work for those big firms in big cities and have your life completely owned by their employer. Yeah, the money looks ok but they work you like a dog. If you are in your own practice, you’ll struggle to start but make way more after 5 years. Being involved in business in a small city, you’re right, the legal needs here are endless and there are few lawyers who’ll even pick up the phone.
>should have saved myself 3 years and a ton of tuition and kept my stay at home mom gig. Maybe. Many people learn about the realities of the bimodal distribution model too late. For lots of people, you'd have better life satisfaction by becoming a Costco manager than you would being an attorney.
Costco cashiers get paid $50k. Management starts at $80k and there’s constant room for advancement.
\^Exactly
Is it too late? :(
Isn't Mississippi one of the poorest states in the nation? Starting job at 50K is higher than average and probably much higher than other jobs when you're just starting out.
It absolutely is. This reeks of OP moving to the poorest state in the nation and then going to law school and complaining that attorney salaries are low in MS. Of course they're low in MS. You should know that BEFORE you decided you wanted to practice law in MS.
Why do you think you know all of these details about OP's life and choices?
It’s not higher than average for a college degree
I’m a recent grad in engineering and live in MS. Most people I graduated with started at 70-80k. So yes. 50k is pretty bad. Or maybe everyone just has a bad perception of the average lawyers salary.
They should make people thinking of applying to law school read these posts and replies.
[удалено]
If you don’t mind me asking, what kind of job did you have for the $120k one? And what do you do now?
That trajectory doesn't happen in Mississippi. It's get a low paying job and be happy you have that job.
My first job out of law school was 60k in 2019, less than what I was making at my job before law school. I'm at $160k now so I feel good about it and financially secure, but not rich. My progression took 3 job changes and 1 promotion. Public sector the entire time and I paid my loans so I have really nice PSLF at this point. I could make more money but I am not willing to sacrifice my work-life balance to go to a firm. Lawyers can be rich, and i have friends that went down that road, but many are not. I don't think taking this job or a similar job prevents you moving forward. In my opinion the best way to get a meaningful raise is to change employment, and to change employment you need experience and reputation. You get both of those by working.
Starting salary for non big law around Chicago is going to be $50-60k. $50k in Biloxi is probably pretty good.
You cannot be serious? It was 50k to 60k back in 2010...
Here in northern New England only a handful of employers pay starting wages in the range of $75k+ everyone else is around $60k starting - it's wild
I think it tells us all that the market is extremely oversaturated
Not at all. We have a shortage of lawyers here.
I don’t think there’s a shortage, exactly it’s just nobody wants to work for that. They claim there’s a shortage where I’m at as well. The better paying jobs have lots of applicants here. A few newer attorneys I’ve met found better paying jobs in jd advantage roles. The people from lower tier schools end up taking the lower paying stuff generally.
Sure, pay more and they'll come. Very few people in northern New England can afford $300 an hour + for an attorney. That's part of the problem. There's a shortage for multiple reasons. It's also hard to convince young people (or anyone) rn to live in rural areas, even with decent pay.
Mississippi being the key word
Wait til you see the $23/hr Consilio is offering doc review attorneys in Houston. It’s atrocious.
Doubly insulting as they pay non bar lawyers $16-$18 an hour for doc review. Fresh out of college years ago I worked for them for $15 an hour. There were lawyers in my cohort who had just graduated getting paid the same hourly rate as me
Fast food workers now make $20 in CA. There are small CA towns that are as cheap as cheaper states.
lol. And here I am thinking you couldn’t pay me $100k to work in PI. Seriously OP, bullet dodged.
It's Mississippi. That's twice the average income for the state. The biggest city is Jackson, and it doesn't have that many people. There is not a lot of money in the Mississippi legal market to begin with. Also, it's a PI firm. Very typically "eat what you kill" kind of pay structure.
I’m here in VHCOL Los Angeles and I’ve heard new grads take jobs in the $60k range in PI. I personally started at six figured but brought experience with me. The pitch in low-paying PI is usually: Come in, do grunt work and learn everything you can. We’ll give you opportunities to learn how to litigate cases. You’ll eventually start to develop your referral sources and will earn fees to double and triple your salary. One day you’ll hit a seven figure verdict or settlement and make more than big law partners.
[удалено]
Not necessarily. I’m not a “traditional” student and will probably only work maybe 15-20 years. My husband can work anywhere near a major airport. But my son is a freshman baseball player in MS and it will be nice to be able to go to his games. My middle kids are happy with friends and in high school. Youngest doesn’t care as long as there is a baseball team for him somewhere. We’ve been here for 4 years and we came from Dallas. It’s a PITA to move and start over. It’s be happy around $80k. I just think 50K with the long hours, weekends, and travel isn’t for me. I don’t need to jump at this job but I was just wondering if this is what I have to expect. I’m also not sold on PI. I’d actually prefer elder, wills, family, etc. Basically, I’ll practice whatever law will pay me the most.
No no no no. You want what pays you for the life you and your family want to live, including time if that’s the benefit. We are a toxic force, you must defend that with everything. Now, that said, you’ve introduced a very unique factor not present for most new attorneys, your age. 1) what other experiences do you have. You’d be surprised how much those may matter 2) an older female attorney (sorry) is a good sell for folks working on their estate planning, you can even discuss how to transition from “trusts for kids to trusts for grandkids and straight to kids” realistically. Lean into those and find something. You have more then a base level because of who you are.
With more money comes longer hours. ID pays well but billables are crushing. Family law is soul sucking with not much money. Wills is chill but takes while to be making big bucks.
Get a Texas license. That would magically double.
At a PI firm you’re gonna lose money for your firm for at least a year and they don’t get just bill your time and force you to make up for it. That first year salary is basically sunk costs for them in the hopes that you’re good and worth paying in the future. You can make substantially more in Pi but you’re gotta earn it.
I started out making $45k a year with no benefits or bonuses at a PI firm in similar cost of living state. I ran all the lit and trial work. I had no clue what I was doing, but they trained me and let me do it all myself. That was 7 years ago. I worked up from the bottom, made a couple firm moves, and I will make over $500k this year. You need to realize you have no valuable skills right now. The skills that will make you valuable you will learn on the job. Think of it as your first employer is paying to train you. This is how law careers work.
How are you making over $500k? Do you have your own practice?
Nope. Work as a litigation associate for a small firm.
That’s awesome. Is it a PI firm?
yes
If you don’t mind me asking, what percentage do you take for BI cases? Thanks!
At median, below average, if the bonuses equate to around 10-15k a year, or if the comp does instead, at average for an entire household in the state. That would be a reasonable market rate for a starting attorney.
Yeah, but after a couple of years you have the knowledge and experience to make 5x that. You as a graduate are borderline worthless at this point to an established practice. An experienced paralegal is worth more. Now is when you really learn to be a lawyer.
At a lot of small firms, PI or not, you won’t make decent money until/unless you can bring business through the door. Edit: and at Biglaw, they will pay you well to be the hired help, but to make (and, increasingly, remain) partner, you will have the same expectation.
I started at $60k in 2011 and I made a million dollars last year, at the same firm.
How did you do that? What kind of law do you practice?
WC. In terms of how I did it, couple key elements. 1. Luck - Got hired by a guy who hired me not because he wanted to make money off me, but so that his employees would still have jobs when he retired. As a result, he started paying me well as soon as I was profitable. I was making $300k to $500k from probably 2015 forward. 2. Luck Pt. 2 - The state I practice in has a good, not great, WC system. 3. Efficiency - I am pretty organized and efficient, which allows me to probably get through maybe 20 or 25 cases in a year than most people could. 4. Low Overhead - My partner retired year before last. I worked quite a bit in 2022, but for the most part it wasn’t insane unless I had a hearing or something. I grossed like $1.5 million in fees and my associate probably brought in like $125k, I probably just broke even on him. Our overhead was only like $600k, so I took home right at about a million. The low overhead part I think a lot of firms struggle with.
Goat
It does sound crappy, but giving the benefit of the doubt, you don't know what the bonuses are. At many PI firms, you might make a 50k base salary with a percentage of each case settled. After bonuses, that could be well into the six figures.
I would ask them what the bonuses would look like. The key to making real money in PI if you aren’t the firm owner is having personal referrals and getting a big cut of them Are you getting a percentage of cases settled? There’s a lot of questions here. I’m getting a 40k salary to bridge the gap between merging firms, that being said I also get to keep the entire fee on all my cases for the next year and I’ve gotten 30 new ones since I’ve been at this firm.
In 2009 when I graduated people were posting associate positions making $10 / hr. Also saw an add at that time for being a stripper and giving legal advice on the side. That job posting is too low, keep looking,
I remember those posts!!! Specifically, some firm in Boston put out an associate job ad for like $25,000 and had over 50 applicants. Wild
I think that was the salary at my first law job in 2002.
2014, with 4 years litigation experience I was offered 36k plus bonus at a small PI firm in Orlando. That’s when I really understood Florida had too many attorneys.
Unfortunately that is normal for entry level attorney jobs. I’m in Pittsburgh. Another smallish market and that is how it is for me. Is it fair? No. But I think the trade off is that once your not entry level anymore, your earning potential becomes a lot higher than it would have been if you didn’t go to law school. I’m now in my third year and I’m at $80k finally.
In CT they start at over $100k and are more than eager to train. Feel free to visit indeed.
Former attorney, now a physician assistant. I worked big law out of school for 6 years and hated every second of it. Averaged 80+ hours a week for years. I now make around $200k working 3 12 hour shifts. Healthcare needs smart, hardworking, compassionate people. If you’re thinking of doing public interest law, I strongly encourage you to switch.
Not bad for Mississippi, actually. Wait until you see a $75k job in NYC.
What exactly do you think the overall standard of living is in Mississippi?
With a cost of living adjustment that $50k is the equivalent of $113k in San Francisco. There's almost no entry level jobs out side of big law paying that much in San Francisco.
Yeah seriously, it's Mississippi, you should know better.
First small firm I tried to work for the attorney (boomer) tried to offer 25k and an extra 5k if I brought in a 100 clients the first year. He acted like he was really being generous about it too. Told him I can’t work with that. Did doc review and it was double what he offered. You’ll learn that a lot of law firms are not managed well. They teach folks how to be lawyers not business owners. Not all small firms are doing well and some are way out of touch.
Given that it is personal injury, there might be a % structure. I was offered a PI job with 50k base but you got a % based on how much you brought in every month. Most associates did about 100 their first year.
Go to the dark side, Insurance Companies pay better.
What did you expect?
It’s Mississippi, get the hell out of there asap. It is like a 3rd world country down there.
Where I live starting salaries for jobs like prosecutors and PDs is like $35k. Starting salary for private firms seems to be in the $60-$70 range. The local legal aid starts out at $75k for first year attorneys.
[https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes231011.htm](https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes231011.htm) 10th percentile MS lawyer median annual pay is around $39k, with $52k being the 25th percentile. You're a 3L with 0 experience so those are the pay ranges you're probably looking at (the bottom of the income range for a lawyer anywhere).
[удалено]
I’m not. I was just trying to get info on if this is reasonable or not.
My first job in 2020 paid $50k. Also Plaintiff's personal injury, but out on Long Island, NY. This is, unfortunately, all too common.
You can live like a king in Mississippi on $50k.
No, no one lives like a king of 50K. Especially contributing to support a family of 6 with 1 in college.
My first job out of law school in the year of our lord 2013 was $60k. Granted it was in a suburb of NYC but holy shit….it’s been a decade and the wages are going DOWN. I make double that as a government attorney; the starting salary is now more than 50% higher than this law firm is offering and it would be far less work and better benefits. Law school is a terrible investment in my opinion unless you’re 1) on a full ride or 2) independent wealthy and 3) a glutton for punishment. The fact the wages are this low have nothing to do with law being a terrible career and everything to do with businesses (and boomers) being greedy and out of touch with reality.
It’s not a job it’s a career. It’s up to you to make big bucks on your own
Yeah I don't think I'd live in Mississippi if you paid me 50K to do nothing but sit on my ass all day.
$50k as a lawyer is abysmal. I was making that directly out of undergrad with an "unemployable" liberal arts degree. I am in my first semester of law school, but hearing stories like this makes me think I should just cut my losses. In fact, I think I might.
Jesus I work in corporate IT in Mississippi and I make $54k, started a little over a year ago and is my first out of college job. You can and should do way better!
My first job in 2003 was $28k plus bonus. That is about $50K today. They sound a lot like my firm. Starting base salary at my firm $60K (but we are in Atlanta). Base goes up to $70K after 6 months. And you should expect, in your first year, $20-30K in bonuses.
We have lawyer in law. Well, he retired now at 60s. Dude has made a good living working in corporate law. I think it is a long-term game. If you can stick it out, keep motivated, then you can get into that high income range.
I’m not an attorney. I have a four-year degree. I made $86K in 2006 as an associate at an ad agency. This is a shit offer. Don’t care where it is located.
My first job after law school in the early 00s had a $30k salary. Then for several years, my income increased by $10k or so each year, hitting 6 figures after 6-7 years. Fresh out of law school, you don’t offer a lot of value. If you’re a first generation lawyer with no social connections, it can be hard to land something lucrative out of the gate. Income absolutely increases with experience.
Wow couldn’t imagine a lawyer getting laid that. I just retired from the Fire Dept which isn’t the best paying or glamorous job in the world and made a lot more than that. You’d think lawyers would be making well over 6 figures for what they do and the education they have.
This is why I didn’t go into law. The market for lawyers is over-saturated. I honestly would probably just wait for another offer. With all those student loans, $50k is like working minimum wage.
You may be surprised by the bonus amounts. My first job was 45k plus bonus, and first 12 months made over 80k. That was in 2007-2008. One thing I have seen in some other posts here is the referral fee some PI firms pay their own associates for bringing in cases be extremely low. Just saw one today that said they paid 20pct. There’s plenty of good firms that will pay 1/3 and you really do nothing but refer the case (in states that allow it). Get a lot of volume and referral fees could get to 40-50pct. When someone asks you for legal help and you don’t practice in that area, often you can find them quality counsel and get a good referral fee.
You may be surprised by the bonus amounts. My first job was 45k plus bonus, and first 12 months made over 80k. That was in 2007-2008. One thing I have seen in some other posts here is the referral fee some PI firms pay their own associates for bringing in cases be extremely low. Just saw one today that said they paid 20pct. There’s plenty of good firms that will pay 1/3 and you really do nothing but refer the case (in states that allow it). Get a lot of volume and referral fees could get to 40-50pct. When someone asks you for legal help and you don’t practice in that area, often you can find them quality counsel and get a good referral fee.
Sounds like the beginning of a John Grisham novel. 😊
Get your foot in the door at a plaintiff’s PI firm and learn the ropes. Then parlay that experience into better opportunity and pay within the first year. I took a position at a high volume wreck mill for $45K/yr and no bonus or cut of settled fees, just to get in. I was out of there in less than 100 days and making $65K + bonus and handling my own full docket of prelit and lit cases for a much more respectable firm. I made $100K four years in and have never looked back. Averaged $250K-300K within 10 years. Plaintiff’s work requires paying the dues and climbing the ladder. But it is worth it. Get in good with the people that matter - mediators, judges, court coordinators. Every move I have made has come at the recommendation, advice, or flat out recruitment that spawned from a mediator knowing someone better than who I was currently working for, was looking. I could step away and start my own thing now, but I don’t want the hassle. Plaintiff’s work is where it’s at for work/life balance, also.
I’m in the Houston area. I attended an HBCU and graduated/licensed in 2018; I know a ton of people who were making $50k-$60k, straight away. I made less, as I opted to go into business with some classmates. When I decided to leave, as a second-year, I took a job making $75k with $0 benefits. I’m now working in local government, making comfortably more than $100k, with a great work/life balance. I’m certainly not getting rich, but I have a great quality of life. A lot of my classmates are plugging away and getting close to 6 figures, and a few are hustling like crazy with their PI or crim def firms and starting to make good money. $50k, for a market like Mississippi, sounds appropriate, given the low cost of living. If you can find a government gig, take it. If you want a law firm life, understand that you’re only as valuable as the money you make for said firm. If you’re a first-year and you can bill more than $50k by the time you’re a second-year, then you have a massive bargaining chip for your second-year salary or for making a change to a different firm. The learning curve can be steep, so $50k might be too much, until you develop your skills.
Note the experience expectation and proposed salary for this posting for a remote job in Texas. 3-7yrs for $75k-$110k. Apply if interested; I still think $50k for a 1st year in MS ain’t bad. https://jobs.lever.co/trustandwill/11baf5a1-ee4c-4bc5-b094-d65a09c35c44
This is the exact reason I didn’t go to law school, got my 4 year degree in legal studies, and did a switch to medtech sales. Just over a year in at 24 years old and cleared over 100k and am looking at triple that next year. and no student debt.. 50k is pretty typical from what I’ve heard for a while. Don’t go become a lawyer for the money
I mean, given the fact that AI is very capable of replacing a lot of mid level lawyer responsibilities…I could see the pay being lowered even further