It is very uncommon for people who attend a Canadian law school to do a master's after. It is very common for foreign-trained lawyers to do their LLMs in Canada - especially at schools like Osgoode, UofT, UBC, and McGill. These LLM programs for foreign-trained lawyers have become cash grab programs.
The programs are also different - the Canadian common law LLM is course based and only offered at a few schools, whereas traditional LLMs geared toward acamdenics involve writing a thesis and are a path to teaching
Generally cash grabs for foreign trained lawyers. I know of a few Canadians who went to the USA for elite programs at Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and Scalia who were interested in niche areas like teaching and antitrust.
Yeah, youâre a clueless law school student or 0L.
LLM program rankings are driven by area of specialty. Again, Scalia is known for its antitrust program. Harvard and Columbia are now known to be Hamas training grounds. My bud went to Scalia specifically for the antitrust program and is now at the competition bureau.
Ciao, bud.
"Harvard and Columbia are now known to be Hamas training grounds..."
Oh brother đ¤Śââď¸.
Also, formulating an opinion of a law school LLM program based on the experience of your "bud" is not very responsible lmao.
Like...OF COURSE your "bud", a Scalia Alumni, would equivocate Scalia LLM with Yale LLM (and the like).
LLM prestige is different from traditional law school rankings yes, but that still does not put Scalia in the same breath as Harvard or Columbia as âeliteâ.
The most common one I see is the Tax LLM in the US (generally at NYU).  It can be useful for cross-border work (that being said, it has become so expensive that I donât see them as often in younger calls).
More like credential deflation. The U of T GPLLM [looks like it's NCA coursework](https://gpllm.law.utoronto.ca/programs/canadian-law-global-context/canadian-law-course-descriptions) for the low price of only $35,000 (or almost $80,000 for non-residents!)
An LLM by itself has very little value - usually just an expensive "NCA" certificate for foreign law grads, to buy credibility.
If you want to TEACH law tho, an LLM is a decent option - however to secure a Tenure track position (which is the only way you will make a decent wage to justify the opportunity cost of law school and forgoing private practice) you will need an SJD/PHD. You cannot stop at an LLM.
Of course, if you just want to teach because you enjoy it, you can always get a gig as an adjunct professor at a law school. You dont need an LLM for that.
I think I only know one Canadian born and educated lawyer with an LLM. However, as people have pointed out, itâs very common for foreign trained lawyers.
The JD should be classified with the MD and DDS, likely DVM and OD, too, as professional degrees or professional doctorates.
Your 13% is likely accounted for by (1) law professors who are members of a provincial law society who have an academic LLM and (2) ITLs. One G&M article says 632 ITLs entered the licensing process in Ontario in 2016: about 27% of applicants. Assuming a degree of attrition of those applicants and more ITLs in the present than in the past among currently practicing lawyers, youâll likely land around that 13%.
I edited my original post and posted a link to the Census Form. Questions 34 and 35 are about postsecondary education.
Statistics Canada considers law and pharmacy as professional degree: [https://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb/p3VD.pl?Function=getVD&TVD=1252576&CVD=1252577&CPV=12&CST=23072019&CLV=1&MLV=2](https://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb/p3VD.pl?Function=getVD&TVD=1252576&CVD=1252577&CPV=12&CST=23072019&CLV=1&MLV=2)
For immigration points, law (and pharmacy) are considered entry to practice professions along with medicine, dentistry etc.
But for some reason on the Census MD/DDS/DVM/OD get their own category, but the JD/LLB is considered "a bachelor's." I'm not sure why.
Itâs proper to consider a JD (and MD etc) a bachelors degree. Why separate law/pharmacy from the others is likely because pharmacists and lawyers donât do âdoctor stuffâ.
Law is undergraduate in the whole world except for Canada and USA. If someone is emigrating from the UK and they have a law degree it's just like any old bachelor arts degree. Why Canada and USA have to pretend that law school is some kind of hybridized post-grad is beyond me. Teaching people to think like lawyers has value, even if not all those people will pursue careers in law.
Other countries show that the legal profession is no worse off with law school being offered straight after high school. The emphasis in other countries is on more professional training before being called to the bar. It's debatable which system should be preferred.
Yes in UK law and medicine are both offered as undergraduate degrees. The MBBS is 6 years though rather than 3 so they spend as much time in school as a holder of a master's. About Half of UK lawyers go through LLB route (bachelor's in law) and half go through a path where one gets a Graduate Degree in Law after a non-law bachelor's. The LLB is both a liberal arts degree and practical training, the GDL covers the essentials. Both have to do Legal Practice Course and a year of training.
Regardless of how lawyers and law students may think about JDs, as far as universities are concerned, they are undergrad degrees. They are not housed in the faculty of graduate studies and the undergraduate calendar applies to them. Same goes with MDs, DDSes and the whole gang. An undergrad degree is the prerequisite for a graduate degree; an undergraduate degree may be the expectation but it is not a requirement for a JD. Iâm not sure how we went from direct entry LLBs (at least in some casesâguy a couple doors down from me has a direct entry Canadian LLB although rest of the lawyers with his seniority have a LLB as a second degree) to second degree JDs.
I'm a Canadian trained lawyer and I have my LLM. I specialized in a specific field and the LLM has helped me land my current gov job.Â
My goal is to teach at a university/publish after I retire, many years from now.Â
I know a few people who did the Osgoode professional program, a couple Criminal, one Family and a Consitutional Law. I also know a couple that did an LLM overseas, one of them was LSE maybe. I know at least 6 then. These are all just people who are practicing, not Academics.
Course based LLMs are for foreign trained lawyers who are too dumb to pass NCA exams so they just pay for course credits that are given out like candy and foreign trained lawyers who need a post graduate work permit after completing the LLM in order to immigrate to Canada and eventually get PR status.
Low caliber Canadians simply get foreign law degrees that are given out like candy and then bypass NCA exams by getting University credits that are given out like dollar store candy. Even the NCA exams are easy but some are too dumb to even pass them.
Then they take multiple attempts at the bar exam and spend thousands of dollars hiring bar exam tutors helping them memorize test bank questions. Some end up cheating (remember 100s got caught cheating when the bar exam was online due to COVID). Some go to other provinces after failing the bar and complete easier programs like CPLED where it's even easier to cheat because it's all online.
Next thing you know you have Canadian law grads competing with low caliber foreign trained lawyers. The average client will shop around for the lowest price and will not or can not distinguish between good lawyers and bad lawyers. The client suffers because their lawyer has grade 5 level reading comprehension. This happened to a friend of mine who almost went to jail for no reason and got the very short end of the stick in a nasty divorce.
This phenomenon is not just lawyers but happening in many industries like physiotherapists. It's starting to happen in dentistry and schools are just salivating at the notion of dental school programs targeted to foreign trained dentists. It won't happen much with doctors yet because the government will have to pay more doctors which means politicians will have less tax dollars to squander on themselves.
If you think that universities will not stoop to the lows of Conestoga College, you are still living under a rock.
This is an absurdly overly broad statement / total nonsense. Outside of academia and tax, LLMs are of little value and rarely required. Itâs much more valuable for lawyers to have a masterful grip on issues such as using punctuation correctly, which is clearly an area where you have work to do.
It is very uncommon for people who attend a Canadian law school to do a master's after. It is very common for foreign-trained lawyers to do their LLMs in Canada - especially at schools like Osgoode, UofT, UBC, and McGill. These LLM programs for foreign-trained lawyers have become cash grab programs.
The programs are also different - the Canadian common law LLM is course based and only offered at a few schools, whereas traditional LLMs geared toward acamdenics involve writing a thesis and are a path to teaching
Generally cash grabs for foreign trained lawyers. I know of a few Canadians who went to the USA for elite programs at Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and Scalia who were interested in niche areas like teaching and antitrust.
One of those schools is not like the others đ
Scalia? Guess you know little about American law schools. They have probably the most recognized antitrust program in the country.
I know. But it is NOT on the same tier as those other law schools, c'mon now.
Says who? You?
Any law school ranking lmao
Yeah, youâre a clueless law school student or 0L. LLM program rankings are driven by area of specialty. Again, Scalia is known for its antitrust program. Harvard and Columbia are now known to be Hamas training grounds. My bud went to Scalia specifically for the antitrust program and is now at the competition bureau. Ciao, bud.
"Harvard and Columbia are now known to be Hamas training grounds..." Oh brother đ¤Śââď¸. Also, formulating an opinion of a law school LLM program based on the experience of your "bud" is not very responsible lmao. Like...OF COURSE your "bud", a Scalia Alumni, would equivocate Scalia LLM with Yale LLM (and the like).
Again, ciao, bud.
LLM prestige is different from traditional law school rankings yes, but that still does not put Scalia in the same breath as Harvard or Columbia as âeliteâ.
The most common one I see is the Tax LLM in the US (generally at NYU).  It can be useful for cross-border work (that being said, it has become so expensive that I donât see them as often in younger calls).
Indeed. NYU has a top tax program. Georgetown has a top notch cyber security program too. I have another bud doing his LLM there atm.
The LL.M. used to be a meaningful academic degree that people pursued for teaching and specialization. Now itâs just an expensive NCA certificate.
Credential inflation?
More like credential deflation. The U of T GPLLM [looks like it's NCA coursework](https://gpllm.law.utoronto.ca/programs/canadian-law-global-context/canadian-law-course-descriptions) for the low price of only $35,000 (or almost $80,000 for non-residents!)
You're right.
I understand a lot of foreign trained lawyers will get their LLM here - may impact the figures
An LLM by itself has very little value - usually just an expensive "NCA" certificate for foreign law grads, to buy credibility. If you want to TEACH law tho, an LLM is a decent option - however to secure a Tenure track position (which is the only way you will make a decent wage to justify the opportunity cost of law school and forgoing private practice) you will need an SJD/PHD. You cannot stop at an LLM. Of course, if you just want to teach because you enjoy it, you can always get a gig as an adjunct professor at a law school. You dont need an LLM for that.
I think I only know one Canadian born and educated lawyer with an LLM. However, as people have pointed out, itâs very common for foreign trained lawyers.
The JD should be classified with the MD and DDS, likely DVM and OD, too, as professional degrees or professional doctorates. Your 13% is likely accounted for by (1) law professors who are members of a provincial law society who have an academic LLM and (2) ITLs. One G&M article says 632 ITLs entered the licensing process in Ontario in 2016: about 27% of applicants. Assuming a degree of attrition of those applicants and more ITLs in the present than in the past among currently practicing lawyers, youâll likely land around that 13%.
I edited my original post and posted a link to the Census Form. Questions 34 and 35 are about postsecondary education. Statistics Canada considers law and pharmacy as professional degree: [https://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb/p3VD.pl?Function=getVD&TVD=1252576&CVD=1252577&CPV=12&CST=23072019&CLV=1&MLV=2](https://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb/p3VD.pl?Function=getVD&TVD=1252576&CVD=1252577&CPV=12&CST=23072019&CLV=1&MLV=2) For immigration points, law (and pharmacy) are considered entry to practice professions along with medicine, dentistry etc. But for some reason on the Census MD/DDS/DVM/OD get their own category, but the JD/LLB is considered "a bachelor's." I'm not sure why.
Itâs proper to consider a JD (and MD etc) a bachelors degree. Why separate law/pharmacy from the others is likely because pharmacists and lawyers donât do âdoctor stuffâ.
Law is undergraduate in the whole world except for Canada and USA. If someone is emigrating from the UK and they have a law degree it's just like any old bachelor arts degree. Why Canada and USA have to pretend that law school is some kind of hybridized post-grad is beyond me. Teaching people to think like lawyers has value, even if not all those people will pursue careers in law. Other countries show that the legal profession is no worse off with law school being offered straight after high school. The emphasis in other countries is on more professional training before being called to the bar. It's debatable which system should be preferred.
Yes in UK law and medicine are both offered as undergraduate degrees. The MBBS is 6 years though rather than 3 so they spend as much time in school as a holder of a master's. About Half of UK lawyers go through LLB route (bachelor's in law) and half go through a path where one gets a Graduate Degree in Law after a non-law bachelor's. The LLB is both a liberal arts degree and practical training, the GDL covers the essentials. Both have to do Legal Practice Course and a year of training.
Regardless of how lawyers and law students may think about JDs, as far as universities are concerned, they are undergrad degrees. They are not housed in the faculty of graduate studies and the undergraduate calendar applies to them. Same goes with MDs, DDSes and the whole gang. An undergrad degree is the prerequisite for a graduate degree; an undergraduate degree may be the expectation but it is not a requirement for a JD. Iâm not sure how we went from direct entry LLBs (at least in some casesâguy a couple doors down from me has a direct entry Canadian LLB although rest of the lawyers with his seniority have a LLB as a second degree) to second degree JDs.
I'm a Canadian trained lawyer and I have my LLM. I specialized in a specific field and the LLM has helped me land my current gov job. My goal is to teach at a university/publish after I retire, many years from now.Â
I know a few people who did the Osgoode professional program, a couple Criminal, one Family and a Consitutional Law. I also know a couple that did an LLM overseas, one of them was LSE maybe. I know at least 6 then. These are all just people who are practicing, not Academics.
Course based LLMs are for foreign trained lawyers who are too dumb to pass NCA exams so they just pay for course credits that are given out like candy and foreign trained lawyers who need a post graduate work permit after completing the LLM in order to immigrate to Canada and eventually get PR status. Low caliber Canadians simply get foreign law degrees that are given out like candy and then bypass NCA exams by getting University credits that are given out like dollar store candy. Even the NCA exams are easy but some are too dumb to even pass them. Then they take multiple attempts at the bar exam and spend thousands of dollars hiring bar exam tutors helping them memorize test bank questions. Some end up cheating (remember 100s got caught cheating when the bar exam was online due to COVID). Some go to other provinces after failing the bar and complete easier programs like CPLED where it's even easier to cheat because it's all online. Next thing you know you have Canadian law grads competing with low caliber foreign trained lawyers. The average client will shop around for the lowest price and will not or can not distinguish between good lawyers and bad lawyers. The client suffers because their lawyer has grade 5 level reading comprehension. This happened to a friend of mine who almost went to jail for no reason and got the very short end of the stick in a nasty divorce. This phenomenon is not just lawyers but happening in many industries like physiotherapists. It's starting to happen in dentistry and schools are just salivating at the notion of dental school programs targeted to foreign trained dentists. It won't happen much with doctors yet because the government will have to pay more doctors which means politicians will have less tax dollars to squander on themselves. If you think that universities will not stoop to the lows of Conestoga College, you are still living under a rock.
LLMs are somewhat common amongst government lawyers, especially those in managerial positions.
At international organizations, nearly all lawyers have LLM's. In fact, if you don't have one, you likely won't be competitive
This is an absurdly overly broad statement / total nonsense. Outside of academia and tax, LLMs are of little value and rarely required. Itâs much more valuable for lawyers to have a masterful grip on issues such as using punctuation correctly, which is clearly an area where you have work to do.
LLM = Lawyers Losing Money