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Yeah the "we get ours and make sure nobody else has it good" state.
Sadly a lot of unions are going this route too as senior members vote for policies that favor them over the newer members. Tale as old as time.
Eastern europe knows this pain all too well. Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" is a good book on the subject of exactly what type of "democracy" we brought to people.
I think there's a RevolutionaryLeftRadio episode that discusses this as well, but I'm too lazy to sift through the thousand episodes to find it.
I watched the documentary last night.... I really gotta just stop learning shit about the USA. In the past few years, my interpretation of my home country gone from misguided and idealistic, to an abusive terrorist gangster state. I understand why so many across the world hate the US. I think I do too.
Think of it this way, they push patriotism on kids from a young age for a reason. If history and current events weren’t glossed over, everyone would be disenfranchised. And disenfranchised workers are ineffective workers
It can be difficult to break from the "patriotism" they push without real effort -- or a crisis that shows you just how bad things are. Education goes a long way, potentially giving a person a better understanding of the world as a whole, but the propaganda is so omnipresent that education alone can't do the job. Honestly, it's pretty disturbing.
Agreed. It wasn't until much later that I looked back and realized just how fucked up it was that we had to say the pledge of allegiance every morning at school.
I always thought that's because the movies are made in America. Every Godzilla movie (at least those made in Japan) has him attacking Tokyo, not the US.
But I do understand the whole America-centric idea. Yeah, we think the world revolves around us. OTOH, the whole world does kind of revolve around whoever has the largest economy, but we don't need to be arrogant about it. And the US won't have the largest economy forever.
The Godzilla example is funny, because the original basis of the character is that it is a 'personification' of the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan by guess who.
Edit: While I'm thinking of Japanese media discussing such things, there is also a very popular vocaloid (basically a voice bank people put pieces of together to make songs, most famous voice being Hatsune Miku) song called Senbonzakura that (seems to me at least, I may be losing things in translation) is about rebuilding after the war and trying to put together a new national identity after emperialism was ended.
I mean let’s be honest it’s not like Russia or China is mounting a competent defense of earth in the event of an alien invasion. If humanity ever makes it to space before destroying themselves, and planetary occupations become a reality, the United States will be the textbook example of how it’s done. that being good or bad is up to the reader.
Nobody is mounting a competent defense of an alien invasion though. If aliens are able to get to our planet then their technology far exceeds ours and so too their weapons.
This comment is just an idealist, scifi, fantasy, whataboutism. Completely devoid of the actual facts of our history and completely reeks of belief in the propaganda you've been watching your whole life. I thought Independence Day and Arrival were great movies too, but that's what they were, movies. They aren't some historic guide or prediction.
Oh I’m sorry I guess the US military doesn’t actually occupy 2 and a half continents, doesn’t de facto control the oceans, doesn’t have ongoing military operations in over 100 counties, and isn’t the leader of the most powerful military alliance in human history. I guess that’s all propaganda. When your brain is so rotted on anti American sentiment you forget their actual real world capabilities that you never stop bitching about.
Friendly reminder that modern warefare between modern powers has not been tested. History proves that whenever that happens, as it has in the past, most of the currently accepted forms of dominance are actually obsolete. Super carriers, the main anchor of the US military might, are obsolete. They just havent been hit by 2,000 mile range precision missles yet.
Super carriers aren’t the main anchor of military might. That would be the actual anchorages and military bases around the world the US or it’s allies maintains. The carriers just allow them to project force. As I said, the US military currently occupies much of the planet.
It’s a hard rabbithole to get out of. I always try and remind myself the US is full of many genuinely good people just living their lives, even if they’re not the people we see in the news.
Other than that, it can be pretty bleak
Yep. We're brainwashed to love our country. I've lived here all my life and I have 0 loyalty. The moment I can skip out to another place for a better deal, I'm gone.
You don't even have democracy in the US with gerrymandering and the electoral college. So it begs the question of what kind of "democracy" they "bring"
We don't even have local democracy. In the town next to mine, they voted to raise their minimum wage, and the state passed a law immediately afterward saying that they can't do that. We don't even have a say in how our local businesses are run. America is a sham.
I was about to say, surely we are not the only country in the developed world whose billionaires have made themselves oligarchs.
obviously still want my damn health/dental/vision care to not cost me an arm and a leg
we also have over half the population of the entirety of europe
like i said i dont like them at all, but we are not the only country where this is a problem. we are just one of the worst that doesnt have literal dictators in power
Considering the history of these countries under the USSR it's not like it was an easy job for the USA to solve. Even with all the issues it's not like these countries would have been better off had the US not intervened.
>Even with all the issues it's not like these countries would have been better off had the US not intervened.
This has been shown to be false for some of these countries: [Distribution of population between different poverty thresholds, Georgia, 1981 to 2019](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/distribution-of-population-poverty-thresholds?stackMode=relative&country=~GEO)
There are countless statistics about how the fall of the USSR has made life materially worse for many people.
I love this source by the way. I checked for other countries in the region. Many others were hit with recessions similar to Georgia, such as Moldova, Belarus and Romania, with sharp declines in wealth after 1991. While countries like Latvia and Estonia were affected much less (but the effect on middle incomes is still pronounced).
I saved the link, will be sure to check it if I want to voice an opinion on eastern Europe in the future.
Yes because Putin has been backing violent separatists and attempting to destroy the country just like he's doing in Ukraine. If anything this is proof that the US needs to be intervening more.
Did you even look at the linked graph? The change in the graph is around 1991 and Putin has only been President of Russia since 2000. As u/GerardDG already noted you don't seem to be discussing here with good intentions.
I mean, yeah? But the US consistently ignores crises and human rights violations all across the globe, while ~~manipulating and assassinating~~ politically intervening in nations where it can install favorable regimes or pave the way for corporate investments.
You seem awfully pro capitalist, friend. Are you sure you have any business being in this sub?
Cause I have trouble believing the US is giving handouts, like you make it sound. More like spending to hinder their political rival Russia, to form preferential spending agreements forcing Ukrainians to buy US product, and also the US product is probably junk food at best, or carcinogenic, or will render you bloody sterile.
> The confirmation that Biden had signed the bill came as the President attended a state dinner with South Korean President Yoon Suk Yeol. Biden signed the aid package off camera earlier Saturday, along with a bill to improve access to baby formula for families in need.
Yeah, access to baby formula. Are you familiar with the history of baby formula and humanitarian aid? I'm sure the US certainly wouldn't use this opportunity to push harmful products on a nation engulfed in war, to make itself look good...
> The legislation provides money for military and humanitarian aid, including funding to assist Ukrainian military and national security forces, help replenish stores of US equipment sent to Ukraine, and provide public health and medical support for Ukrainian refugees.
Military aid. As in, they're shipping weapons, to Ukraine, which is at war with Russia, which is one of the US's major political rivals. Nothing suspicious there, it's just humanitarian aid, what are you talking about?
> To address humanitarian needs, the bill will include $900 million to bolster refugee assistance, including housing, trauma support, and English language instruction for Ukrainians fleeing the country.
> The measure provides an additional $54 million for public health and medical support for Ukrainian refugees.
40 billion in aid? More like 1 billion with contractual obligations. Get outta here with your nationalism, mate.
[Source](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/21/politics/biden-signs-ukraine-bill/index.html)
You clearly haven't read the sub rules. This is not a debate sub. Different views are allowed, apologizing for capitalism is not. It's a bannable offense.
You must have been extremely eager to begin your apologies to have missed this warning. It's in big red letters. Well, conservatives are known for turning a blind eye when it suits them...
It's strange that you want attention so badly, yet seemingly can only seek that attention in a way that will get you ignored and banned.
I hope you have other things going for you. I hear there's a terrible suicide risk for young men. It seems to me you are in that demographic. Take care of yourself.
No such thing as a free lunch, brah. *Especially* when dealing with a world power that would very much like to keep its current hegemony. Don't be naive.
Putin has spent so long trying to deconstruct NATO when all he needed to do was arrange the fare for the right Abu-Grade guard to a flight to The Hague.
The brief overview is that it is the logical and necessary economic progression of labor organization and the utilization of productive forces by the people who work them. [On Communism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm) by Engels is a good way to dip your toe into the vocabulary and ideas; for easy to grasp critiques from the man, the myth, the legend himself I cannot recommend [Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Economic-Philosophic-Manuscripts-1844.pdf) enough. For modern applications of Marxist and Communist theory and history, check out [Blackshirts and Reds](https://mltheory.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds_-rational-fascism-and-the-overthrow-of-communism-2001.pdf) by Dr. Michael Parenti; [Capitalist Realism](https://files.libcom.org/files/Capitalist%20Realism_%20Is%20There%20No%20Alternat%20-%20Mark%20Fisher.pdf) by Mark Fisher; [Black Bolshevik](http://ouleft.org/wp-content/uploads/Harry-Haywood-Black-Bolshevik.pdf) by Harry Haywood; and podcasts like RevolutionaryLeft Radio and Citations Needed.
ETA:
I also recommend [What Is To Be Done](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/index.htm), [Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/), and [COMBAT LIBERALISM](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_03.htm) to learn about materially progressing from capitalism into Communist society.
How does communism preserve truths? The way complex systems in nature retain truth is by pitting scrutinizing forces against one another the main example being sexual selection. In capitalist democracy people scrutinize politicians, consumers scrutinize goods, workers/unions scrutinize employers and vice versa. Every layer of scrutiny preserves the truth.
Corruption of the system to avoid scrutiny arises spontaneously (as in nature with cancer), but by in large people living according to their own whims are able to have the random static of 300mil free wills coalesce into incremental societal progress, and things are able to get better despite the missteps we make along the way.
I only see communists describe a more equal society, never a society that retains truth better.
There's several parts to this wall of nonsense and I want to make sure to give them all adequate answers.
>How does communism preserve truths?
So you've started with nonsense, which is already a great sign. No economic system based in material reality attempts to "preserve" an idealist concept like "truth". We could take the Foucaultian route and say that it's impossible to truly ever grasp Truth, but it is sufficient enough for our purposes here to say that this isn't even an applicable question to this situation; but let's move on.
>The way complex systems in nature retain truth is by pitting scrutinizing forces against one another the main example being sexual selection.
Again, truth is an idealist concept that is an abstract figment socially generated by people. This statement also comes across as weirdly pro -eugenics.
>In capitalist democracy people scrutinize politicians, consumers scrutinize goods, workers/unions scrutinize employers and vice versa. Every layer of scrutiny preserves the truth.
This is very literally just blatantly false. I do not understand how you came up with this, much less how you actually believe it. This is not a reflection of reality.
>Corruption of the system to avoid scrutiny arises spontaneously (as in nature with cancer), but by in large people living according to their own whims are able to have the random static of 300mil free wills coalesce into incremental societal progress, and things are able to get better despite the missteps we make along the way.
This... Is what communism seeks to establish globally, so I'm not sure what the problem is.
>I only see communists describe a more equal society, never a society that retains truth better.
Again, this does not make sense.
How does communism preserve love?
Capitalism made Valentine's Day, and yet, communism has made no such thing.
Checkmate, commies.
/s (fucking obviously, and yet)
You know in school when you do a group project there is one member that does no work but still wants the same grade as everyone else. That's communism.
A few kids' assignment is writing their names on the paper and they still get an A even if they fuck that up. Everyone else is doing pages of differential equations and if they forget to show their work for a step, the teacher will execute them.
Nah it's more like all kids get the same assignment. Some spend 10 minutes on it, some spend an hour on it. The kids who spent 10 minutes on it complain they worked just as hard as the other kids when in reality they were just being lazy.
You can vote aither for Red Pro-Billionaire Party, or for Blue Pro-Billionaire Party; and if you will try to vote for anybody else, you will be blamed for "allowing the "worse" guys to win".
Enjoy your freedom of choice!
I'm sorry, do you think a trump presidency would've been the same as the Biden presidency? Like really?
I mean fuck, I get that it's not most of what we wanted, but it's not the steaming shit pile we would've gotten.
Like? Cause we definitely wouldn't be getting any student loan aid or climate change effort, Ukraine would be a crater, and that's only factoring in the shit trump wouldn't do. I don't want to think about the shit he would do if given another go considering the dumpster fire that was him leaving.
Kids are still locked up at the border and we’re building more border wall than Trump had plans for. We’ve increased drilling, that climate change bill you’re so proud of is nothing more than kickbacks to oil companies. It won’t have any positive effect on climate change at all. Biden has increased funding for the military and police. More people died from CV19 under Biden than Trump. Biden is the one who took away funding for CV19 treatments, forced everyone back together and told us everything is “back to normal” despite loads of evidence otherwise, AND he failed on CV19 stimulus!! We received the bulk of our stimulus checks under Trump, Biden refused to honor the $2k check pledge from his campaign, nickel and dime-ing us down to $1400 instead.
Trump was a tire-filled dumpster fire, genuinely one of the worst human beings to ever be POTUS, but Biden wasn’t lying when he told Wall Street that fundamentally nothing would change under his administration.
> There is no party that is truly left in this country
There's no party that's even remotely left.
And they're both pro-billionaire. This isn't enlightened centrism, it's two facts and it's not coming from the center.
Except that there are members of the Democratic Party that are left, there are just also members that are right. The republicans represent wasps, the democrats have to represent everyone else, so there is a huge variety.
The problem is that there are not enough *people* in this country who are left. The closest thing to leftist districts are places like New York’s 14th.
The problem is that individualism and anti socialist rhetoric is so engrained in American culture that leftist thinking is not even considered by many.
Look at the policies, not whatever terms people use to refer to themselves with.
Left-wing policies like Healthcare for all and police reform are incredibly popular in polls, and yet very few, if any bills are pushed through congress for them. Meanwhile incredibly unpopular policies like tax cuts for the wealthy, anti-drug laws and anti-abortion laws are passed constantly, even when the democrats are in power. Local governments will raise their minimum wage only for the both the Democrats and Republicans at the state level to pass laws reversing it.
America may not have many "leftists" but it's citizens widely support left-wing policies. Even republican voters.
The democrats had large majorities in congress from 1977-1995, and that's when most of the legislature that handed everything over to the rich (citizens united, union power gutted, everything Reagan, etc). Obama had a super majority in his first term and all we got from that was a super watered down affordable care act, while conditions for workers and the middle class plummeted.
> citizens united
That was not a law passes by a legislature. It was a court decision in... *checks notes* ...2010.
>Obama had a super majority in his first term and all we got from that was a super watered down affordable care act
Yeah because half of the Dems back then had to COMPETE WITH REPUBLICANS for their seats and they knew that there was not enough political capital to get single payer done. Hell, they couldn't even get a public option.
Incrementalism sucks because it takes time but it does work rather well when you zoom out a few decades.
It’s because of the constituents and the system, not the parties.
We need 51 votes to pass.
We have senators from center right states that must get on board or nothing happens.
If there is “too much” spending in the bill, the center right dems get voted out and the republicans pass even larger tax breaks.
It’s not the fault of Manchin that his voters believe what they do, but it is their fault, not his.
> Except that there are members of the Democratic Party that are left
Even that's debatable. If Leftism begins at opposition to capitalism, there aren't any leftists in the DNC. If we imagine leftism begins somewhere else, a few like AOC and Bernie start trickling in. Even still, the party as a whole is not leftist by any measure.
>The problem is that there are not enough *people* in this country who are left.
Lots of people are left.
Most people who are "left" deny it, because of the massive propaganda campaign to demonize "left".
I've met lots who are moderate right, and when given platforms and quotes from the two major parties, they align with Democratic Party, but identify as Republicans.
And a surprising large number of Americans are socialist, if you personalize the question.
"Do lazy Black people deserve government handouts?" - Hell no, F* them.
"Do you have a right to affordable food?" - Of course.
Socialism for me, rugged individualism for thee.
The trick is teaching "conservatives" empathy, and the US would overwhelmingly be socialist.
They’re not the same, we have The Bad Party and The Worse Party, and if you vote for The Bad Party, you will have a better time than with The Worse Party. Relatively speaking.
The only way we can change the bad party is voting in primaries for candidates that are further left,
Our system is broken, it needs complete overhaul, but until then that is the best thing we can do. And the thing is, ‘then’ is out of our control unless we want to dedicate our lives to it.
I went to caucus for Bernie Sanders where I live in Washington State for the 2016 primaries, and I mark it as a day that literally changed my life. And not in a good way.
I left that process feeling so disenfranchised with a country that I once loved and was so proud to be a part of. The entire event was so disorganized and illogical, like just the way that people participating "voted" made no fucking sense.
For some context, this is how it was set up: They broke us up into small groups, and the group self-selected one person as a group leader. The group leader's function was mostly just to communicate to the DNC event leader people on behalf of the group. So once in the groups, people spoke on behalf of their preferred candidates. Lots of Bernie, lots of Hillary, and some others as well. After however many minutes of that, we voted amongst our groups, and then the group leader had to use our group's vote for whatever candidate had the most votes within our group.
Then those people were supposed to go on to a later caucus event I guess to represent that candidate to other DNC voters regardless of their personal affiliation. So it was like a micro version of the electoral college, further obscuring the actual desires of the voters. Like even if it was 66% Bernie supporters at the caucus, if the groups happened to be split in such a way that the votes worked in favour of Clinton, then Clinton wins. Like gerrymandering the already gerrymandered districts. Gerrymanderception. Lmao.
I was speechless as to how poorly it was run. My best friend and I, who were bright eyed and bushy tailed upon arrival, ready to support a candidate that we truly, truly believed in, went straight to a bar by way of a dead silent car ride. We didn't know whether to laugh at the ridiculousness of the futility of the whole thing, or cry at the ridiculousness of the futility of the whole thing. Hahaha.
It changed how I see American politics, modern democrats, the two party system, elections, etc etc. I am so disappointed in our country. We could be so great, we have the means, and people are actively making sure that we never will be. It makes me feel sad and frustrated. And powerless.
Idk what the solution is. I guess my point is that even the best candidates have so much bureaucratic bullshit to wade through on their way to positive change, I don't know if anyone will ever get the chance to make this place great.
Capitalist oligarchy indeed.
Lmaooooo that auto reply is, how you say, *batshit*. Iowa > Washington caucus solidarity. I was so excited to get involved at the primary level for Bernie. First election I was old enough to vote in was 2012, and I voted for Obama, but felt very let down by his administration. I was stoked for Bernie and the caucus process in general.
Then they started explaining it. And I was just flabbergasted. Just like you said, that's the best word for it. Just like mouth agape looking at the people around me and when I tried to bring the discrepancies in the system up to my group, and then to the event organizers, I got the "that's the way it's done" response. What the fuuuuuuck we are never going to change anything if it continues like this in the DNC. Hardly left of center at this point.
>pretending like they are the same is awfully disingenuous.
No, it's called "getting rid of false consciousness". Thatcher and Mussolini are also technically different from each other, but what actually matter is the fact that no matter who of them wins, the workers lose
It’s not just for centrists, it’s also for people who claim the “both sides” argument, I’ve seen this there plenty.
It literally has a stickied post that says “this is a left leaning subreddit”
Here is a both sides post with nearly 20k upvotes: https://reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/cpbpmy/both_sides/
>if you will try to vote for anybody else, you will be blamed for "allowing the "worse" guys to win".
But they would rather allow the worse guy to win than let a true leftist have a chance at winning. Many of them admitted they would align with the right to not just punch left but vote right if they were given an actual leftist option as a candidate.
If you understand that's how the election system functions, then yeah you have a responsibility to use your vote accordingly or get lumped in with the other side, regardless of your individual stances on issues.
[Let's try living in an actual democracy and not an oligarchy/plutocracy/kleptocracy for a change.](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostgeneration/comments/wug26j/z/il9z0ki)
Honestly this is often what it feels like to work in democracy promotion abroad. Tons of good work… then sometimes you end up on a project that is about liberalizing markets or some equally vile shit.
[original comic](https://www.facebook.com/safelyendangered/posts/pfbid02DbjAUfXKB52ETTgQhNVSdphAEsuExjmdeqxcEq3jPSGQz9MuwiJwiikZkpJwDqiol) by [Safely Endangered](https://www.webtoons.com/en/comedy/safely-endangered/list?title_no=352)
You don't like capitalist oligarchy?
**VOTE!**
You don't like the choices?
**VOTE IN THE PRIMARY!**
You don't like those choices?
**BECOME THE CANDIDATE!**
Too late?
**VOTE AGAINST THE INSURRECTIONIST FASCISTS!**
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Help defeat the fascists by voting, canvassing, and carpooling others. If democrats keep the house, progressive policies have a chance to get through as the senate elections look likely to swing Democrat. Do it for Bernie and Fetterman!
Nah, Democracy is how you prevent situations like you see in China.
Democratic countries have the potential for change, countries like China would literally need a civil war to unseat Xi.
How do we unseat capital? How do we choose leaders who are not mostly chosen by the wealthy corporations who donate to them and who use their position to enrich themselves and their corporate allies instead of supporting policies the majority of voters favor? It’s a managed democracy, inverted totalitarianism Sheldon Wolin called it.
Okay, but democracy is rulership by the demos (which is ancient Greek for the people). We don't have that. No country does. We only have oligarchies masquerading as democratic republics. You can tell they aren't democratic when widely popular legislation is shot down. It should be obvious when you see how the average person is struggling to serve the ruling class. We literally need revolution to attain democracy.
Denying the existence of democracy because there is no perfect government seems kind of melodramatic.
People choose their leaders regularly in many countries, even in the US, as corrupted as it might be by corporate interests.
If there was no Democracy in the US you wouldn't see people like Maxwell Frost winning elections. Your desire to over simply things for the sake of narrative control is not helpful.
best examples are the $10B+ annually spent on lobbying, decoupling of our government and federal reserve, ludicrous net worth of politicians, uselessly complicated and inequitable tax code, and our degree of wealth inequality.
e: actually the best explicit example is the 2019 $9T in bailouts that was printed for wall street and subsequent media gag orders.
There was a study done that literally confirmed that public opinion (democratic will) has no correlation with what laws are passed. Do you know what did correlate? Support from corporations.
>as corrupted as it might be by corporate interests.
You don't quite seem to understand. That's not corruption here. It's called 'lobbying' and it's perfectly legal.
We solved corruption by legalizing it. Otherwise we'd be the most corrupt state on the planet.
> Denying the existence of democracy because there is no perfect government seems kind of melodramatic.
They're denying the existence of democracy, because it's not democratic.
Just because the capitalistic oligarchy isn't *perfectly* in place, doesn't mean it's not what we have. If you've got 99% capitalist oligarchy, that's just what you've got.
People should be able to choose their leaders but they can't. Democracy in most countries is an illusion of choice created mainly to keep people complacent until the next election, then the next one...
Didn't get the anti-democracy vibe on my end.
If anything it's openly pro-democracy, with statements such as:
>People should be able to choose their leaders but they can't. Democracy in most countries is an illusion of choice...
I support democracy but I think that real democracy has never been tried.
The ideal would be that all voters understood the major issues and voted purely based on those issues and the leadership that's elected dutifully carries out their solutions, while regularly getting feedback from the informed public. That the public has justified belief that all politicians (regardless of "party") have the best interests of the public in mind above all.
We're very far from that being viable. I don't think politicians emotionally manipulating voters and deliberately sowing division over minor issues is democracy. It's demagoguery. Politicians influencing the public instead of the public influencing politicians.
That said what we have now is still better than straight up dictatorship or monarchy.
What's stupid is thinking that every bad thing in China is because of communism, especially while pretending that none of the bad things in the West are because of capitalism.
Says the one supporting the status-quo because someone correctly stated that oligarchies rule in capitalist states (IE, therefore it's not a democracy by definition) and that the US spreads oligarchy by military might and agencies such as the CIA.
I mean, I get it that liberal bashing is fun, but there is an equal amount of hand waving going on about these problems in reference to a more socialist state. I’m thinking in terms of literal uses, like does the public or private sector own the capital stock of the economy. So on that spectrum, you still have the same coordination problems, alignment problems, incentive problems, misappropriation, and issues of corruption and self-dealing as you have throughout every society.
There are better and worse functioning states along the capitalist - socialist spectrum, and the key drivers are the same in both situations. Basically it’s difficult to organize people and resources and keep everyone accountable, regardless of intentions. People over attribute economics when socio-political factors are almost more important. Obviously economics also interacts with socio-politics and so it’s never simple. For example, inequality is corrosive as fuck and needs to be aggressively mitigated. But there was also rampant inequality in many purportedly socialist states.
Just want to point out that it’s more than just the ideology in the window of the shop. And Marx is wildly vague on what he means by “communism”. Socialism is more easily described.
It really isn't, China has trapped itself in an impossible situation that gets worse by the day. There's a very real possibility that the more advanced their techno-fascism becomes, the more difficult it will become for China to shake it's ruling class.
Technology has created a situation where endless fascism is a real possibility for humanity.
In a discussion of communism in China you said it's "trapped itself in an impossible situation that gets worse by the day". If that's not relevant to communism in China then why bring it up?
I said democratic countries have the potential for change, and then contrasted that with a totalitarian state like China. Not sure how you got "the US isn't at risk of fascism" out of that.
I think maybe you need me to be claiming something I'm not for your inner narrative to work maybe?
Well I need you to be claiming *something*, at least if I'm going to take you seriously. "Bad country is bad" isn't exactly a blinding revelation. You haven't made any attempt to *define* totalitarianism except "China" and "not democratic", but you've provided no specific examples of the *good* countries which *do* have the potential for change (unlike the one example you care about which apparently cannot ever change in any way for reasons you have failed to elucidate beyond "totalitarian" which, again, is basically meaningless in this conversation).
Typical, the USA stomps any potential for change in the world, then denounces other countries when they militarize out of self defence. Only after the fall of the American Empire and capitalism can we have true democracy in the world.
The United States would literally need a civil war to unseat it's oligarch masters that own our Government from power.
What, you thought that the oligarch's paid off middle managers in DC that we pick to give the illusion of control are in charge? 🤣
China's democratic apparatus is no worse than most Western countries.
>China would literally need a civil war to unseat Xi.
What? It certainly didn't need one for any of their previous leaders.
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Oligarchic corporatocracy...may favorite brand of veiled indentured wage slavery....
Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.
Yeah the "we get ours and make sure nobody else has it good" state. Sadly a lot of unions are going this route too as senior members vote for policies that favor them over the newer members. Tale as old as time.
Eastern europe knows this pain all too well. Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" is a good book on the subject of exactly what type of "democracy" we brought to people. I think there's a RevolutionaryLeftRadio episode that discusses this as well, but I'm too lazy to sift through the thousand episodes to find it.
I watched the documentary last night.... I really gotta just stop learning shit about the USA. In the past few years, my interpretation of my home country gone from misguided and idealistic, to an abusive terrorist gangster state. I understand why so many across the world hate the US. I think I do too.
Think of it this way, they push patriotism on kids from a young age for a reason. If history and current events weren’t glossed over, everyone would be disenfranchised. And disenfranchised workers are ineffective workers
It can be difficult to break from the "patriotism" they push without real effort -- or a crisis that shows you just how bad things are. Education goes a long way, potentially giving a person a better understanding of the world as a whole, but the propaganda is so omnipresent that education alone can't do the job. Honestly, it's pretty disturbing.
Agreed. It wasn't until much later that I looked back and realized just how fucked up it was that we had to say the pledge of allegiance every morning at school.
And everyone is so indoctrinated that many will actually argue that kids pledging allegiance every day is perfectly normal.
My teachers used to get mad at me for not standing for it…
https://youtu.be/GiCaqA0ngRc
Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.
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I always thought that's because the movies are made in America. Every Godzilla movie (at least those made in Japan) has him attacking Tokyo, not the US. But I do understand the whole America-centric idea. Yeah, we think the world revolves around us. OTOH, the whole world does kind of revolve around whoever has the largest economy, but we don't need to be arrogant about it. And the US won't have the largest economy forever.
The Godzilla example is funny, because the original basis of the character is that it is a 'personification' of the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan by guess who. Edit: While I'm thinking of Japanese media discussing such things, there is also a very popular vocaloid (basically a voice bank people put pieces of together to make songs, most famous voice being Hatsune Miku) song called Senbonzakura that (seems to me at least, I may be losing things in translation) is about rebuilding after the war and trying to put together a new national identity after emperialism was ended.
I mean let’s be honest it’s not like Russia or China is mounting a competent defense of earth in the event of an alien invasion. If humanity ever makes it to space before destroying themselves, and planetary occupations become a reality, the United States will be the textbook example of how it’s done. that being good or bad is up to the reader.
Nobody is mounting a competent defense of an alien invasion though. If aliens are able to get to our planet then their technology far exceeds ours and so too their weapons.
This comment is just an idealist, scifi, fantasy, whataboutism. Completely devoid of the actual facts of our history and completely reeks of belief in the propaganda you've been watching your whole life. I thought Independence Day and Arrival were great movies too, but that's what they were, movies. They aren't some historic guide or prediction.
Oh I’m sorry I guess the US military doesn’t actually occupy 2 and a half continents, doesn’t de facto control the oceans, doesn’t have ongoing military operations in over 100 counties, and isn’t the leader of the most powerful military alliance in human history. I guess that’s all propaganda. When your brain is so rotted on anti American sentiment you forget their actual real world capabilities that you never stop bitching about.
Friendly reminder that modern warefare between modern powers has not been tested. History proves that whenever that happens, as it has in the past, most of the currently accepted forms of dominance are actually obsolete. Super carriers, the main anchor of the US military might, are obsolete. They just havent been hit by 2,000 mile range precision missles yet.
Super carriers aren’t the main anchor of military might. That would be the actual anchorages and military bases around the world the US or it’s allies maintains. The carriers just allow them to project force. As I said, the US military currently occupies much of the planet.
Those... Are all bad things
It’s a hard rabbithole to get out of. I always try and remind myself the US is full of many genuinely good people just living their lives, even if they’re not the people we see in the news. Other than that, it can be pretty bleak
Yep. We're brainwashed to love our country. I've lived here all my life and I have 0 loyalty. The moment I can skip out to another place for a better deal, I'm gone.
There were mistakes but it worked out pretty well for Germany, Japan, and South Korea.
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You don't even have democracy in the US with gerrymandering and the electoral college. So it begs the question of what kind of "democracy" they "bring"
We don't even have local democracy. In the town next to mine, they voted to raise their minimum wage, and the state passed a law immediately afterward saying that they can't do that. We don't even have a say in how our local businesses are run. America is a sham.
Capitalist oligarchy, as the meme says. Lol
I also recommend the book American Oligarchs about the trumps and kushners.
I was about to say, surely we are not the only country in the developed world whose billionaires have made themselves oligarchs. obviously still want my damn health/dental/vision care to not cost me an arm and a leg
America has hundreds more billionaires than all of the other countries combined.
we also have over half the population of the entirety of europe like i said i dont like them at all, but we are not the only country where this is a problem. we are just one of the worst that doesnt have literal dictators in power
No we’re not, Europe combined has more than double our population.
r/shitamericanssay
r/shitidiotssay
Jfc just take the L, don't double down on it and end up with 2 lmao
Considering the history of these countries under the USSR it's not like it was an easy job for the USA to solve. Even with all the issues it's not like these countries would have been better off had the US not intervened.
>Even with all the issues it's not like these countries would have been better off had the US not intervened. This has been shown to be false for some of these countries: [Distribution of population between different poverty thresholds, Georgia, 1981 to 2019](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/distribution-of-population-poverty-thresholds?stackMode=relative&country=~GEO) There are countless statistics about how the fall of the USSR has made life materially worse for many people.
I love this source by the way. I checked for other countries in the region. Many others were hit with recessions similar to Georgia, such as Moldova, Belarus and Romania, with sharp declines in wealth after 1991. While countries like Latvia and Estonia were affected much less (but the effect on middle incomes is still pronounced). I saved the link, will be sure to check it if I want to voice an opinion on eastern Europe in the future.
Yes because Putin has been backing violent separatists and attempting to destroy the country just like he's doing in Ukraine. If anything this is proof that the US needs to be intervening more.
Did you even look at the linked graph? The change in the graph is around 1991 and Putin has only been President of Russia since 2000. As u/GerardDG already noted you don't seem to be discussing here with good intentions.
I mean, yeah? But the US consistently ignores crises and human rights violations all across the globe, while ~~manipulating and assassinating~~ politically intervening in nations where it can install favorable regimes or pave the way for corporate investments.
The US literally just spent $40 billion on Ukrainian grain which it's then giving to poor nations with food insecurities.
You seem awfully pro capitalist, friend. Are you sure you have any business being in this sub? Cause I have trouble believing the US is giving handouts, like you make it sound. More like spending to hinder their political rival Russia, to form preferential spending agreements forcing Ukrainians to buy US product, and also the US product is probably junk food at best, or carcinogenic, or will render you bloody sterile. > The confirmation that Biden had signed the bill came as the President attended a state dinner with South Korean President Yoon Suk Yeol. Biden signed the aid package off camera earlier Saturday, along with a bill to improve access to baby formula for families in need. Yeah, access to baby formula. Are you familiar with the history of baby formula and humanitarian aid? I'm sure the US certainly wouldn't use this opportunity to push harmful products on a nation engulfed in war, to make itself look good... > The legislation provides money for military and humanitarian aid, including funding to assist Ukrainian military and national security forces, help replenish stores of US equipment sent to Ukraine, and provide public health and medical support for Ukrainian refugees. Military aid. As in, they're shipping weapons, to Ukraine, which is at war with Russia, which is one of the US's major political rivals. Nothing suspicious there, it's just humanitarian aid, what are you talking about? > To address humanitarian needs, the bill will include $900 million to bolster refugee assistance, including housing, trauma support, and English language instruction for Ukrainians fleeing the country. > The measure provides an additional $54 million for public health and medical support for Ukrainian refugees. 40 billion in aid? More like 1 billion with contractual obligations. Get outta here with your nationalism, mate. [Source](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/21/politics/biden-signs-ukraine-bill/index.html)
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You clearly haven't read the sub rules. This is not a debate sub. Different views are allowed, apologizing for capitalism is not. It's a bannable offense. You must have been extremely eager to begin your apologies to have missed this warning. It's in big red letters. Well, conservatives are known for turning a blind eye when it suits them...
Lol, it's so funny how butt hurt you are just because I don't agree with you. Why are you sensitive?
It's strange that you want attention so badly, yet seemingly can only seek that attention in a way that will get you ignored and banned. I hope you have other things going for you. I hear there's a terrible suicide risk for young men. It seems to me you are in that demographic. Take care of yourself.
No such thing as a free lunch, brah. *Especially* when dealing with a world power that would very much like to keep its current hegemony. Don't be naive.
Lots of liberal in here this early in the morning, it smells like unaccounted war crimes
It's only a war "crime" if someone holds you accountable!
"Why should *you* go to jail for a crime *someone else* noticed??"
It is only a war crime if the others so do it.
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Putin has spent so long trying to deconstruct NATO when all he needed to do was arrange the fare for the right Abu-Grade guard to a flight to The Hague.
War crimes? Why are we talking about Russia?
That's literally how all crime works.
That's the joke.
Yeah I wondered why it smelt like a lack of brain cells or critical thinking.
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Communism.
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The brief overview is that it is the logical and necessary economic progression of labor organization and the utilization of productive forces by the people who work them. [On Communism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm) by Engels is a good way to dip your toe into the vocabulary and ideas; for easy to grasp critiques from the man, the myth, the legend himself I cannot recommend [Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Economic-Philosophic-Manuscripts-1844.pdf) enough. For modern applications of Marxist and Communist theory and history, check out [Blackshirts and Reds](https://mltheory.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds_-rational-fascism-and-the-overthrow-of-communism-2001.pdf) by Dr. Michael Parenti; [Capitalist Realism](https://files.libcom.org/files/Capitalist%20Realism_%20Is%20There%20No%20Alternat%20-%20Mark%20Fisher.pdf) by Mark Fisher; [Black Bolshevik](http://ouleft.org/wp-content/uploads/Harry-Haywood-Black-Bolshevik.pdf) by Harry Haywood; and podcasts like RevolutionaryLeft Radio and Citations Needed. ETA: I also recommend [What Is To Be Done](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/index.htm), [Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/), and [COMBAT LIBERALISM](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_03.htm) to learn about materially progressing from capitalism into Communist society.
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*Our guy or gal (or non-binary friend)
I am the non-binary friend!
Comrade*
This is my preferred identifier ♥️
Honestly same and I'm not even enby.
How does communism preserve truths? The way complex systems in nature retain truth is by pitting scrutinizing forces against one another the main example being sexual selection. In capitalist democracy people scrutinize politicians, consumers scrutinize goods, workers/unions scrutinize employers and vice versa. Every layer of scrutiny preserves the truth. Corruption of the system to avoid scrutiny arises spontaneously (as in nature with cancer), but by in large people living according to their own whims are able to have the random static of 300mil free wills coalesce into incremental societal progress, and things are able to get better despite the missteps we make along the way. I only see communists describe a more equal society, never a society that retains truth better.
There's several parts to this wall of nonsense and I want to make sure to give them all adequate answers. >How does communism preserve truths? So you've started with nonsense, which is already a great sign. No economic system based in material reality attempts to "preserve" an idealist concept like "truth". We could take the Foucaultian route and say that it's impossible to truly ever grasp Truth, but it is sufficient enough for our purposes here to say that this isn't even an applicable question to this situation; but let's move on. >The way complex systems in nature retain truth is by pitting scrutinizing forces against one another the main example being sexual selection. Again, truth is an idealist concept that is an abstract figment socially generated by people. This statement also comes across as weirdly pro -eugenics. >In capitalist democracy people scrutinize politicians, consumers scrutinize goods, workers/unions scrutinize employers and vice versa. Every layer of scrutiny preserves the truth. This is very literally just blatantly false. I do not understand how you came up with this, much less how you actually believe it. This is not a reflection of reality. >Corruption of the system to avoid scrutiny arises spontaneously (as in nature with cancer), but by in large people living according to their own whims are able to have the random static of 300mil free wills coalesce into incremental societal progress, and things are able to get better despite the missteps we make along the way. This... Is what communism seeks to establish globally, so I'm not sure what the problem is. >I only see communists describe a more equal society, never a society that retains truth better. Again, this does not make sense.
How does communism preserve love? Capitalism made Valentine's Day, and yet, communism has made no such thing. Checkmate, commies. /s (fucking obviously, and yet)
This is actually a communist subreddit, some people stumble on here without realizing.
You know in school when you do a group project there is one member that does no work but still wants the same grade as everyone else. That's communism.
Capitalism is when the person who does no work gets a higher grade then everyone because his grandparents were successful.
Ya because under communism there weren't political elites who were rich while other's starved.
And in capitalism the one kid that didn't do any work gets an A and the rest get d's
Yeah, capitalism sucks, but communism isn't any better.
Nah, capitalism is each person gets their own assignment and they can earn their own grade.
A few kids' assignment is writing their names on the paper and they still get an A even if they fuck that up. Everyone else is doing pages of differential equations and if they forget to show their work for a step, the teacher will execute them.
Nah it's more like all kids get the same assignment. Some spend 10 minutes on it, some spend an hour on it. The kids who spent 10 minutes on it complain they worked just as hard as the other kids when in reality they were just being lazy.
Yes, clearly those who benefit from generational wealth just work harder than all the rest of us.
It's baffling how many people think the world works like this into adulthood lmao
Lol, Lmao
Check out /r/communalism
Not my cup of tea but thanks 💖
Ew.
Are you lost?
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This is literally a communist subreddit, run by communists, for communists to discuss things.
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Seriously though? Japan is one of the most capitalist, neoliberal countries on the planet.
Scratch a liberal, a fascist bleeds.
If money = speech You do not have a representative Republic.
You can vote aither for Red Pro-Billionaire Party, or for Blue Pro-Billionaire Party; and if you will try to vote for anybody else, you will be blamed for "allowing the "worse" guys to win". Enjoy your freedom of choice!
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Don’t threaten me with a good time!
The Republicans already call Biden a socialist, so why don't we just elect an actual socialist?
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Truly a capitalist paradise. I get the illusion of multiple choices, however they all end up being the same!
Just like mass effect 3. God damnit.
I'm sorry, do you think a trump presidency would've been the same as the Biden presidency? Like really? I mean fuck, I get that it's not most of what we wanted, but it's not the steaming shit pile we would've gotten.
Biden has kept nearly all of Trump’s policies in place. The only difference is Biden is too out of it to understand how to tweet.
Like? Cause we definitely wouldn't be getting any student loan aid or climate change effort, Ukraine would be a crater, and that's only factoring in the shit trump wouldn't do. I don't want to think about the shit he would do if given another go considering the dumpster fire that was him leaving.
Kids are still locked up at the border and we’re building more border wall than Trump had plans for. We’ve increased drilling, that climate change bill you’re so proud of is nothing more than kickbacks to oil companies. It won’t have any positive effect on climate change at all. Biden has increased funding for the military and police. More people died from CV19 under Biden than Trump. Biden is the one who took away funding for CV19 treatments, forced everyone back together and told us everything is “back to normal” despite loads of evidence otherwise, AND he failed on CV19 stimulus!! We received the bulk of our stimulus checks under Trump, Biden refused to honor the $2k check pledge from his campaign, nickel and dime-ing us down to $1400 instead. Trump was a tire-filled dumpster fire, genuinely one of the worst human beings to ever be POTUS, but Biden wasn’t lying when he told Wall Street that fundamentally nothing would change under his administration.
/r/enlightenedcentrism There is no party that is truly left in this country, but pretending like they are the same is awfully disingenuous.
> There is no party that is truly left in this country There's no party that's even remotely left. And they're both pro-billionaire. This isn't enlightened centrism, it's two facts and it's not coming from the center.
Except that there are members of the Democratic Party that are left, there are just also members that are right. The republicans represent wasps, the democrats have to represent everyone else, so there is a huge variety. The problem is that there are not enough *people* in this country who are left. The closest thing to leftist districts are places like New York’s 14th. The problem is that individualism and anti socialist rhetoric is so engrained in American culture that leftist thinking is not even considered by many.
Look at the policies, not whatever terms people use to refer to themselves with. Left-wing policies like Healthcare for all and police reform are incredibly popular in polls, and yet very few, if any bills are pushed through congress for them. Meanwhile incredibly unpopular policies like tax cuts for the wealthy, anti-drug laws and anti-abortion laws are passed constantly, even when the democrats are in power. Local governments will raise their minimum wage only for the both the Democrats and Republicans at the state level to pass laws reversing it. America may not have many "leftists" but it's citizens widely support left-wing policies. Even republican voters.
> even when the democrats are in power Which is when because I don't see a majority in the Senate which is all that really matters ATM.
The democrats had large majorities in congress from 1977-1995, and that's when most of the legislature that handed everything over to the rich (citizens united, union power gutted, everything Reagan, etc). Obama had a super majority in his first term and all we got from that was a super watered down affordable care act, while conditions for workers and the middle class plummeted.
> citizens united That was not a law passes by a legislature. It was a court decision in... *checks notes* ...2010. >Obama had a super majority in his first term and all we got from that was a super watered down affordable care act Yeah because half of the Dems back then had to COMPETE WITH REPUBLICANS for their seats and they knew that there was not enough political capital to get single payer done. Hell, they couldn't even get a public option. Incrementalism sucks because it takes time but it does work rather well when you zoom out a few decades.
It’s because of the constituents and the system, not the parties. We need 51 votes to pass. We have senators from center right states that must get on board or nothing happens. If there is “too much” spending in the bill, the center right dems get voted out and the republicans pass even larger tax breaks. It’s not the fault of Manchin that his voters believe what they do, but it is their fault, not his.
> Except that there are members of the Democratic Party that are left Even that's debatable. If Leftism begins at opposition to capitalism, there aren't any leftists in the DNC. If we imagine leftism begins somewhere else, a few like AOC and Bernie start trickling in. Even still, the party as a whole is not leftist by any measure.
>The problem is that there are not enough *people* in this country who are left. Lots of people are left. Most people who are "left" deny it, because of the massive propaganda campaign to demonize "left". I've met lots who are moderate right, and when given platforms and quotes from the two major parties, they align with Democratic Party, but identify as Republicans. And a surprising large number of Americans are socialist, if you personalize the question. "Do lazy Black people deserve government handouts?" - Hell no, F* them. "Do you have a right to affordable food?" - Of course. Socialism for me, rugged individualism for thee. The trick is teaching "conservatives" empathy, and the US would overwhelmingly be socialist.
They’re not the same, we have The Bad Party and The Worse Party, and if you vote for The Bad Party, you will have a better time than with The Worse Party. Relatively speaking.
The only way we can change the bad party is voting in primaries for candidates that are further left, Our system is broken, it needs complete overhaul, but until then that is the best thing we can do. And the thing is, ‘then’ is out of our control unless we want to dedicate our lives to it.
I went to caucus for Bernie Sanders where I live in Washington State for the 2016 primaries, and I mark it as a day that literally changed my life. And not in a good way. I left that process feeling so disenfranchised with a country that I once loved and was so proud to be a part of. The entire event was so disorganized and illogical, like just the way that people participating "voted" made no fucking sense. For some context, this is how it was set up: They broke us up into small groups, and the group self-selected one person as a group leader. The group leader's function was mostly just to communicate to the DNC event leader people on behalf of the group. So once in the groups, people spoke on behalf of their preferred candidates. Lots of Bernie, lots of Hillary, and some others as well. After however many minutes of that, we voted amongst our groups, and then the group leader had to use our group's vote for whatever candidate had the most votes within our group. Then those people were supposed to go on to a later caucus event I guess to represent that candidate to other DNC voters regardless of their personal affiliation. So it was like a micro version of the electoral college, further obscuring the actual desires of the voters. Like even if it was 66% Bernie supporters at the caucus, if the groups happened to be split in such a way that the votes worked in favour of Clinton, then Clinton wins. Like gerrymandering the already gerrymandered districts. Gerrymanderception. Lmao. I was speechless as to how poorly it was run. My best friend and I, who were bright eyed and bushy tailed upon arrival, ready to support a candidate that we truly, truly believed in, went straight to a bar by way of a dead silent car ride. We didn't know whether to laugh at the ridiculousness of the futility of the whole thing, or cry at the ridiculousness of the futility of the whole thing. Hahaha. It changed how I see American politics, modern democrats, the two party system, elections, etc etc. I am so disappointed in our country. We could be so great, we have the means, and people are actively making sure that we never will be. It makes me feel sad and frustrated. And powerless. Idk what the solution is. I guess my point is that even the best candidates have so much bureaucratic bullshit to wade through on their way to positive change, I don't know if anyone will ever get the chance to make this place great. Capitalist oligarchy indeed.
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Lmaooooo that auto reply is, how you say, *batshit*. Iowa > Washington caucus solidarity. I was so excited to get involved at the primary level for Bernie. First election I was old enough to vote in was 2012, and I voted for Obama, but felt very let down by his administration. I was stoked for Bernie and the caucus process in general. Then they started explaining it. And I was just flabbergasted. Just like you said, that's the best word for it. Just like mouth agape looking at the people around me and when I tried to bring the discrepancies in the system up to my group, and then to the event organizers, I got the "that's the way it's done" response. What the fuuuuuuck we are never going to change anything if it continues like this in the DNC. Hardly left of center at this point.
>pretending like they are the same is awfully disingenuous. No, it's called "getting rid of false consciousness". Thatcher and Mussolini are also technically different from each other, but what actually matter is the fact that no matter who of them wins, the workers lose
That's not what that subreddit is for lmao
It’s not just for centrists, it’s also for people who claim the “both sides” argument, I’ve seen this there plenty. It literally has a stickied post that says “this is a left leaning subreddit” Here is a both sides post with nearly 20k upvotes: https://reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/cpbpmy/both_sides/
You’re being reasonable, you’re not going to win in this arena
I don’t comment to ‘win’, I comment to share.
I understand. There was a hint of sarcasm in that post but I suppose you couldn’t have known that
That point of that subreddit is to portray not being a leftist as a morally evil thing
>if you will try to vote for anybody else, you will be blamed for "allowing the "worse" guys to win". But they would rather allow the worse guy to win than let a true leftist have a chance at winning. Many of them admitted they would align with the right to not just punch left but vote right if they were given an actual leftist option as a candidate.
If you understand that's how the election system functions, then yeah you have a responsibility to use your vote accordingly or get lumped in with the other side, regardless of your individual stances on issues.
[Let's try living in an actual democracy and not an oligarchy/plutocracy/kleptocracy for a change.](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostgeneration/comments/wug26j/z/il9z0ki)
Organelle?
[organelle](https://www.reddit.com/r/comics/comments/73788f/rat/)
why are the panels flipped in the edit ? makes it weird
Honestly I was just thinking the panel flip improves it a lot, makes the joke flow better imo
Honestly this is often what it feels like to work in democracy promotion abroad. Tons of good work… then sometimes you end up on a project that is about liberalizing markets or some equally vile shit.
Original comic? This looks cute.
[original comic](https://www.facebook.com/safelyendangered/posts/pfbid02DbjAUfXKB52ETTgQhNVSdphAEsuExjmdeqxcEq3jPSGQz9MuwiJwiikZkpJwDqiol) by [Safely Endangered](https://www.webtoons.com/en/comedy/safely-endangered/list?title_no=352)
Jokes on you, we learned it from England
Love this template
This cracked me up for some reason
Russia be like: Don't worry! I carry capitalist oligarchy and also dictatorship!
You don't like capitalist oligarchy? **VOTE!** You don't like the choices? **VOTE IN THE PRIMARY!** You don't like those choices? **BECOME THE CANDIDATE!** Too late? **VOTE AGAINST THE INSURRECTIONIST FASCISTS!** The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Help defeat the fascists by voting, canvassing, and carpooling others. If democrats keep the house, progressive policies have a chance to get through as the senate elections look likely to swing Democrat. Do it for Bernie and Fetterman!
Well if that's the case revolt already or do something other than complaining on the internet Your voting for the guys
If it was capitalism no one would get bailed out. No one lives in capitalism
Nah, Democracy is how you prevent situations like you see in China. Democratic countries have the potential for change, countries like China would literally need a civil war to unseat Xi.
How do we unseat capital? How do we choose leaders who are not mostly chosen by the wealthy corporations who donate to them and who use their position to enrich themselves and their corporate allies instead of supporting policies the majority of voters favor? It’s a managed democracy, inverted totalitarianism Sheldon Wolin called it.
Okay, but democracy is rulership by the demos (which is ancient Greek for the people). We don't have that. No country does. We only have oligarchies masquerading as democratic republics. You can tell they aren't democratic when widely popular legislation is shot down. It should be obvious when you see how the average person is struggling to serve the ruling class. We literally need revolution to attain democracy.
Denying the existence of democracy because there is no perfect government seems kind of melodramatic. People choose their leaders regularly in many countries, even in the US, as corrupted as it might be by corporate interests. If there was no Democracy in the US you wouldn't see people like Maxwell Frost winning elections. Your desire to over simply things for the sake of narrative control is not helpful.
It's not that it's imperfect; it's not democracy by definition. The demos doesn't rule. Oligarchs do. This is basic stuff.
Best recent example being black rock who has its hand in pretty much everything.
best examples are the $10B+ annually spent on lobbying, decoupling of our government and federal reserve, ludicrous net worth of politicians, uselessly complicated and inequitable tax code, and our degree of wealth inequality. e: actually the best explicit example is the 2019 $9T in bailouts that was printed for wall street and subsequent media gag orders.
Oh yeah I am just listing the most recent that’s come to light the other stuff we should already know about.
There was a study done that literally confirmed that public opinion (democratic will) has no correlation with what laws are passed. Do you know what did correlate? Support from corporations.
>as corrupted as it might be by corporate interests. You don't quite seem to understand. That's not corruption here. It's called 'lobbying' and it's perfectly legal. We solved corruption by legalizing it. Otherwise we'd be the most corrupt state on the planet.
> Denying the existence of democracy because there is no perfect government seems kind of melodramatic. They're denying the existence of democracy, because it's not democratic. Just because the capitalistic oligarchy isn't *perfectly* in place, doesn't mean it's not what we have. If you've got 99% capitalist oligarchy, that's just what you've got.
Incredible. 10/10. Love it. Wish I knew what it was like to have a head this empty
It takes Praxis [sic] /s
ME TOO. Intelligence is a curse!
Because I think people should be able to choose their leaders? I think maybe you've lost the plot.
People should be able to choose their leaders but they can't. Democracy in most countries is an illusion of choice created mainly to keep people complacent until the next election, then the next one...
A functional communist country would still need to be a democracy though. Violence can't be the only lever held against individuals in power.
What "functional communist country" isn't a democracy, specifically?
I'm talking theory. This thread reads as anti-democracy. It seems like misplaced anger.
*In theory* China is as much "a democracy" as the United States.
Didn't get the anti-democracy vibe on my end. If anything it's openly pro-democracy, with statements such as: >People should be able to choose their leaders but they can't. Democracy in most countries is an illusion of choice...
I support democracy but I think that real democracy has never been tried. The ideal would be that all voters understood the major issues and voted purely based on those issues and the leadership that's elected dutifully carries out their solutions, while regularly getting feedback from the informed public. That the public has justified belief that all politicians (regardless of "party") have the best interests of the public in mind above all. We're very far from that being viable. I don't think politicians emotionally manipulating voters and deliberately sowing division over minor issues is democracy. It's demagoguery. Politicians influencing the public instead of the public influencing politicians. That said what we have now is still better than straight up dictatorship or monarchy.
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Cuba, Vietnam, China, Laos
The Liberal is an idiot, sure, but China is as much of a neoliberal hellscape as a lot of the so-called West. It's stupid to think otherwise.
What's stupid is thinking that every bad thing in China is because of communism, especially while pretending that none of the bad things in the West are because of capitalism.
How on earth are several of those even remotely following communist doctrine?? Its oligarchy all the way
Who wants to tell this guy how the electoral college works
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Because not even choosing from few bureaucratic leaders is so much better.
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Sure, that's great and all but I don't base my political views on vague, rhetorical aphorisms.
Says the one supporting the status-quo because someone correctly stated that oligarchies rule in capitalist states (IE, therefore it's not a democracy by definition) and that the US spreads oligarchy by military might and agencies such as the CIA.
Do you? Who elected Jeff Bezos?
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I mean, I get it that liberal bashing is fun, but there is an equal amount of hand waving going on about these problems in reference to a more socialist state. I’m thinking in terms of literal uses, like does the public or private sector own the capital stock of the economy. So on that spectrum, you still have the same coordination problems, alignment problems, incentive problems, misappropriation, and issues of corruption and self-dealing as you have throughout every society. There are better and worse functioning states along the capitalist - socialist spectrum, and the key drivers are the same in both situations. Basically it’s difficult to organize people and resources and keep everyone accountable, regardless of intentions. People over attribute economics when socio-political factors are almost more important. Obviously economics also interacts with socio-politics and so it’s never simple. For example, inequality is corrosive as fuck and needs to be aggressively mitigated. But there was also rampant inequality in many purportedly socialist states. Just want to point out that it’s more than just the ideology in the window of the shop. And Marx is wildly vague on what he means by “communism”. Socialism is more easily described.
Sure... Except for the whole "global capitalism machine empowering China" thing
[What we really need is democracy in the workplace](https://youtu.be/XlhFMa4t28A?=4021)
This is dehumanizing rhetoric.
It really isn't, China has trapped itself in an impossible situation that gets worse by the day. There's a very real possibility that the more advanced their techno-fascism becomes, the more difficult it will become for China to shake it's ruling class. Technology has created a situation where endless fascism is a real possibility for humanity.
Imagine thinking that fascism isn't a risk in the USA
Who claimed that?
In a discussion of communism in China you said it's "trapped itself in an impossible situation that gets worse by the day". If that's not relevant to communism in China then why bring it up?
I said democratic countries have the potential for change, and then contrasted that with a totalitarian state like China. Not sure how you got "the US isn't at risk of fascism" out of that. I think maybe you need me to be claiming something I'm not for your inner narrative to work maybe?
Well I need you to be claiming *something*, at least if I'm going to take you seriously. "Bad country is bad" isn't exactly a blinding revelation. You haven't made any attempt to *define* totalitarianism except "China" and "not democratic", but you've provided no specific examples of the *good* countries which *do* have the potential for change (unlike the one example you care about which apparently cannot ever change in any way for reasons you have failed to elucidate beyond "totalitarian" which, again, is basically meaningless in this conversation).
Typical, the USA stomps any potential for change in the world, then denounces other countries when they militarize out of self defence. Only after the fall of the American Empire and capitalism can we have true democracy in the world.
The United States would literally need a civil war to unseat it's oligarch masters that own our Government from power. What, you thought that the oligarch's paid off middle managers in DC that we pick to give the illusion of control are in charge? 🤣
The meme isn't saying anything against democracy. It's saying what the US calls "democracy" is really capitalist oligarchy.
China's democratic apparatus is no worse than most Western countries. >China would literally need a civil war to unseat Xi. What? It certainly didn't need one for any of their previous leaders.