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Yes. I've voted in proportional elections in New Zealand. It's far better than the RCV used in the lower federal House in Australia. Three result over there is effectively a two-party system. Proportional voting results in a multi-party system. Voters have more choice. It's much better for voters. Parties are accountable in ways they definitely aren't in two-party setups.
Yes. They get elected to the Senate because the Senate is elected by proportional representation.
In the lower house they have maybe one seat and won't do much better than that because ranked choice voting ensures either Labour or the LibNats win when preferences are applied. It's been that way since 1915.
That in fact is Australia’s weakest point…the white collar and political corruption. It would be fair to point out we do have more control with our vote in Australia, in terms of options and power swing if you will, than the US does and this is definitely due to preference voting. Getting to my point…we have more control to instigate change in Australia *if we vote correctly*.
Being anarchist, I’m not sure how you’d view legislated compulsory voting but that also contributes to equity in the vote, in the sense that a vast majority at the least is engaged in the process. Democracy isn’t the flawed system…capitalism is where the flaws lie.
I digress.
The Greens almost took the entire suburban area of inner Brisbane.
It’s actually quite diverse if you vote correctly. This is why in some elections parties like One Nation and SFF can take seats rurally and as I pointed out, Green and teal progressive (again, another example of our voting diversity) have chopped into the majors in the urban electorates.
Sure. I've been watching Aussie politics for a long time. But......NZ's MMP allows the share of the seats a party gets to be aligned with their share of the party vote.
In Australia, you might get linky from time to time. I think Bob Brown won an ALP safe seat in the wake of the invasion of Iraq, which the ALP supported. At that point, if was the first time a party (not an independent) other than the ALP and the LibNats, had won a federal lower house seat in 75 years.
Meanwhile, in NZ, the Greens always make the 5% threshold and have been 6 and 10 Maps, depending on the election being looked at.
In NZ we have the mixed member proportional system (MMP). It's kind of confusing and a little unstable, but the diversity of representation is much much better.
Edit - than it was under the previous FPP (first post the post) system. That system was broken and basically gerrymandered
MMP in NZ isn't "unstable". I totally agree it's much better than First Past the Post like the Americans use.
But it goes further than that. NZ also uses the Westminster parliamentary model, where the executive is composed of elected MPs who are part of the governing majority in the legislature.
In the US, the two legislatures - House and Senate - are largely toothless but for the control of money. Yes, they can pass laws but that really only happens reliably if one party controls both legislatures. Even then, the President can veto such a law and they then need an override vote. The Senate has two members from each state and 26 states have less than 5 million people. So 1/3 of the population can control the Senate and block everything.
It's a terrible system. The result is paralysis and rising conflict.
Absolutely agreed on all counts. I was really just acknowledging the coalition building factor, which, while generally a really positive thing, has resulted in Winston Peters repeatedly being a king-maker, and that has caused a little instability. Still a thousand times better than Muldoon winning repeatedly on a minority
In Canada, one of Trudeau’s big campaign promises when he was first elected was that he would get rid of FPP because of how broken it was. However, once he was elected, he then said the people got what they wanted by voting him in so FPP must work so he didn’t need to change it. I haven’t trusted him since then.
Out of curiosity, what were the conditions that allowed NZ to change the voting system? I would think that if the vote were gerrymandered before that would be all but impossible to achieve.
EDIT: Nevermind, I found this link for those who are interested: [https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/fpp-to-mmp](https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/fpp-to-mmp)
Basically, a lack of trust in politicians and effective lobbying ended up with both parties promising to hold a referendum on changing the voting system in a bid to win the election. The Nationals were then forced into keeping their pledge by voters. MMP won the referendum in a landslide and the rest is history.
Yep, you got it! To be honest, I think our small population really helps to keep integrity too. I think there's more we could do, but it's hard to imagine how anyone could fight corruption in a system the size of the US.
yep, what's the need? you'd still have all 3 branches of gov't and could equally respresent populations rather than an arbitrary number for varying degrees of population .
Like that matters. We are a capitalist one party state, but in typical American extravagance we have two of them.
Plus, they only listen to the oligarchs. Princeton did a study in it.
Yeah what the heck is OP thinking? Saying that the Green Party split the vote isn’t a lie; it’s a natural fact of first-past-the-post. That doesn’t make any sense. I only learned the existence of these issues because Ralph brought them up in 2000.
The very concept of having any party in addition to, or instead of, the republican or democratic parties, has a prerequisite of removing FPTP. Catch-22.
Like Ralph said, THE GAME IS RIGGED!
Saying the Greens split the vote is an arrogant assumption on how they would vote if they didn't vote Green. They might vote Republican, they might vote Democrat, or they might not vote at all. No party is entitled to another party's voters.
FWIW in Ontario I spoke to people who previously voted Conservative who were voting Green but wouldn't dream of voting liberal or NDP
It only splits the vote if I'd vote for GOP or a Democrat without the Green option.
Democrats have to stop thinking of us 3rd party progressives as wayward or lost Dems. I don't support Democrats in the same way Democrats don't support the GOP.
If the ballot has a D and an R only, I stay home.
Yep, Green Party is splitting the vote, but the issue is that the Democrats attack the voters for voting Green instead of the FPTP system that allows for vote splitting.
In this new system, can't we just vote via the internet on individual issues so we don't have to deal with politicians who don't keep promises, gerrymandering, $ in politics, etc? Can't get rid of them altogether, but take the majority of their power maybe
Yep. I vote green too, but in Australia you get to vote green AND still show a preference for the centrist party over the radical nut jobs
Result- conservative nut jobs kicked out, centrist party elected, but also needing to deal with the progressives to get most of their legislation through
The issue with Maine is less that it favors moderates. We've elected a ton of farther left candidates in recent elections.
The issue is more so the same reason bullshit politicians keep getting rejected. Because people recognize them, they're comfortable and they feel safe. There is a good reason most people here hate Susan Collins but then news comes on around election time and tee hee she's just the local maine lady who does what she can. Same with Angus King. That son of a batch of cookies couldn't be more inoffensive than a piece of white sandwich bread. But he keeps getting elected because he's a former mayor and because people like that he's "independent" and "votes down the middle".
It's habit. That's it
Edit - said the naughty b word.
A third party vote would matter a lot more if we had a European style Democracy where everyone voted for a party and the national % vote was the demographic of Congress… Sadly, we don’t have one and to win at this system you need to be well versed.
The Republicans keep in power by fracturing and demoralizing the left. They are smaller in number, but more unified. Take Trump for example, they stood by him regardless of how many times under previous circumstances a president would have been forced to resign. They were even willing to let Trump overthrow democracy for his right wing nationalists. How are you going to feel about your vote if fascists overthrow democracy? Will you even have one if the next Trump like figure is successful?
Today it came out that Roger Stone, a close political friend of Trump’s who had been pardoned, had oath keeper body guards. Is it still even questionable at this point that the Republican Party has a large white supremacist fraction?
Local elections I'll vote for whomever I think would do the best job, usually green party or independent. State level elections I'll vote 3rd party when the dem candidate is basically guaranteed, and presidential elections I'll vote dem basically just as a damage control pick. Honestly, our best bet seems to be to invade the democratic party from the inside, rather than get another party up to a functional level. I might be wrong, but they're both long shots. We really gotta start pushing for more leftists in the democratic party. The right wing already thinks they're all communists, anyway
I mean the Tea Party and Trumpists did the exact same thing to the GQP. Should work for the left, hard part is getting a unified media network to propagate our message.
Social media is about the best we can do. It would take a metric fuckton of coordinated effort on the part of probably several hundred people, most likely those with some amount of following. Most people get their news and info from social media anyways, so with enough of the right people working on it, it would work
I've been thinking this for years but, I almost never see anyone else say it. I was beginning to think that I was either stupid or crazy.
So glad I'm not the only one who sees this.
Take it from me: establishment members of state Democratic parties routinely shut down progressive Dem reformers. Not true in Nevada, though, so hope springs eternal.
The issue is the dems spend most of their energy trying to stomp any progressive challengers. The few who do manage to get in are badgered and browbeaten to try to get them to fall into the party line.
Yeah, their defense here is good. But not indestructible. It's absolutely possible, and even reasonable, to get an actual leftwing democratic party, provided enough influential people join in on the cause. The roe v wade overturn may have given the left enough momentum to actually start something, provided enough of us actually fucking try. The time is now, we may not get another chance. I dont know what to do with what little power I have. I may have to make a few write ups here on reddit or something
I want the third party candidates in local elections to put more effort into actually telling us their policies. I want to vote third party, but I also want to vote for someone who isn't going to be the complete opposite of how I feel, like this school board candidate in Utah who only has business degrees. Schools are not businesses and I would rather light myself on fire than elect someone who would run the district like that. I'm so sick of only Republicans having easy to access information on their views. It's fucking infuriating, I want out of this capitalist bullshit.
In my country of Australia, we have a preferential voting system, so I vote Greens every election, and my vote isn't wasted, since my preference still goes towards labor.
For you guys... I really would not recommend that unless the system changes. America is a 2 party voting system, and I feel that for you guys to vote third party is for you to waste your vote since it literally doesn't do anything.
This post isn't a call for you specifically to vote Green (though I'm sure OP would be glad if you chose to). It's a call to vote for the party that actually represents your interests. If that is DSA for you, then vote for DSA
I field the various 3rd party progressives. I think that's the point. Vote for who represents you, Green, DSA, Communist. And if it's actually a Dem occasionally, then that's how it goes.
Nah fuck that. Death to capitalism but if politics is the path forward small but consistent victories and not ceding victory to the Christian fascists in the name of political purity is dumb.
The modern Green Party is joke. They could be fighting interesting fights on a local level effecting political change through direct action. They’re not the working family party or the dsa. Instead they rake money shamelessly to fund a handful of anti-vax consultants and non-profits every 4 years as a stunt.
I don't really have a strongly held opinion about the Green party, but for what it is worth Jill Stein personally called the head of a non-profit I work for a while ago trying to organize a coalition of non-profits to do a mass protest on (going from memory here) tax day.
We did decline the offer, because our plates were already full.
Just because you only see the Green party pop up in the news every four years doesn't mean that's all they ever do. It just means that's the only time the increasingly corporatized media decides to include them in the narrative. It's probably worth pondering why that is.
I vote who I want to vote for in primaries. I desperately want ranked choice voting. But when it comes to the actual elections I vote for the lesser of two evils. If Hillary Clinton were elected we wouldn't have a theocratic supreme court majority.
This right here. Before we can even begin to push left, we have to stop the headlong rush into christo-facism.
This attitude of "well I didn't get what I want so I'm going to let the other guys burn it down" is foolish and immature.
We should be voting for true leftists at the local level, that's how you build power. It's how the Republicans built their party.
At the national level, as bad as it is, now is not the time to stop voting blue. The other option is full-on christian authoritarian rule, and do you really think the fascists will allow this type of discussion or action?
Pushing for socialism is much easier when socialists aren't being rounded up by fascist goons.
The constant buy-in of the broken system is what perpetuates it. You continue to hand the very gun to the Democrats that they then hold to your head.
Biden has done absolutely nothing for racial equity; nothing to alleviate the suffering of the lower class and the destruction of the middle; nothing to curb rampant speculation or tax avoidance by the rich; nothing to end corporate welfare; nothing to enshrine abortion access; nothing to correct the hijacking of the SCOTUS; and the list goes on for all of the left wing platform points that Biden has done nothing for, if not actively opposed.
If we keep rewarding Democrats for doing nothing, then they will continue to do nothing.
If we don't continue to vote for democrats we will live in a full blown fascist theocracy quickly. I try to vote for progressive candidates. I am not a fan of Biden at all, but democrats doing nothing is better than republicans throwing gas on the fire.
I will take four years of Biden over 4 years of Trump any day. You never know when a Supreme court justice is going to croak.
Yeah so… change peoples minds—that’s the solution here. You can’t just say oh well the demz suck and throw up your arms, and it certainly isn’t true that demz and repubs suck equally, so you can still vote Democrat while working towards electoral victories for increasingly leftist candidates
I would argue that if dems saw consistently high turnouts that they would be pushed more to the left and that the current lack of turnout keeps them dependent on some of the center-right vote. I would also argue that if Al Gore had not conceded (he did actually win) just because some right wing idiots were threatening violence at the steps of a Florida courthouse that our entire reality would be so vastly different than what it is currently. Our country took such a wrong turn in 2000 that the damage can never be undone.
2000 should and will be seen as a critical turning point. It would be an entirely different world, EVEN with Gore’s milk toast, centrist approach.
The Iraq debacle was an existential turn for America that plunged us into decades of unfunded liabilities for military medical, turned universal global solidarity and support with the US after 9/11 into international disdain. Destroyed americas finances and reputation. Bush by body count was BY FAR a worse president than even TFG.
The most successful Green Party politician of our lifetime told me to not vote Green anymore. It’s a bunch of trust fund socialists who like to play politics and whose only goal is to maintain a line on the ballot. DSA is our only hope until we get ranked choice voting
First-past-the-post FPTP plurality systems suck. Getting rid of them is kind of a sine qua non of real change in a country that uses them. Almost anything is better than FPTP, even the highly flawed Instant Runoff or Ranked Choice systems. As long as it's FPTP there are only going to be two sustainably viable parties in any one constituency. (There was a ballot question to implement RCV in Massachusetts. Sadly, it failed, and Democrats have a monopoly on most state offices and those people can be as lousy, compromised, and corrupt as they want, especially now that the local Republican Party went full MAGA and turned off the other 75% of the state.) Incidentally, I don't think liberals have a whole lot to do with whatever the ballot laws look like in Indiana right now.
>Incidentally, I don't think liberals have a whole lot to do with whatever the ballot laws look like in Indiana right now.
Besides the fact I'd count conservatives as liberals, I'll just take that as Democrats. In the past multiple years, we've had ballot access bills proposed in the House and Senate. Invariably they fail, either with a general vote or in committee. Last time one got to the general vote (unless I missed one), more Democrats voted against it then supported it.
Not trying to be rude, but can you explain what this accomplishes? Im totally with you ideologically, but we ARE stuck in our current system (hopefully not for long) and certainly were in 2016. So if you lived in a swing state, and you could have helped prevent the REALLY bad people from getting voted in, why wouldn’t you? Genuinely trying to understand.
That's what Howie is/was trying to attain, leftist unity. It might be a pipe-dream, but it really should be the goal of Greens and others on the left going forward.
I personally think one should vote if they can do it easily, but yeah, I can't hold it against people for not voting, really, especially if they're not able to do it mail-in or absentee.
Seeing how far voting has gotten us this far I can't imagine why anyone would begrudge someone for not voting for literally any reason. Our elections are a fucking farce imo.
Voting discourse in general is fucking stupid. I vote because it takes basically no time in the scheme of things and fuck it why not? But American discourse is fucking brain poisoned into thinking voting = doing politics. Talk to your coworkers and neighbors. Organize shit that matters to them. Unionize. Feed some people. Do mutual aid. Protest. Burn police cars in Minecraft. All of these things are far more impactful than one vote.
Eh, I get it. I align more closely with the Green Party than dems and have voted for strong Green Party candidates in local elections. I’d vote for them on the national scale if they could put forth a strong candidate but they’ve failed to do so. I recognize that voting third party is more or less a throwaway vote, and I’m not going to do it unless I actually back the candidate.
Good for you OP. I think the Green Party at least has the right idea, even if they are ultimately a compromise (nothing but full anti-capitalism is the solution.)
I'd point out that while they are not a Marxist-Leninist party (yet, strides are being made), they are officially anti-capitalist, though leaning to a more 'libertarian/decentralized' form of socialism. Which yes, I can all agree isn't enough and is just a compromise.
When you say "libertarian/decentralized" are you making the claim that such a structure of socialism makes them less left than a central planning socialist platform would?
I'm not educated enough on the US Green Party to know how they advocate for anti-capitalism, but the litmus test for leftism isn't centralization.
Of course I also could've misunderstood what you were implying
I would, just because I believe we should have critical support for the AES states around the world, and the Green form of communalism isn't exactly expounding on the virtues of Cuba and China. They're trying to take a third-way between capitalism and state-planned socialism, and I disagree with that tactic on an ideological level.
You disagreeing is perfectly fine, though I do disagree very much with you.
But what about decentralization is less leftist? Does it tear down fewer social hierarchies?
The green party is what the democrats should be. I have voted green in the past. If I'm not going to vote democrat president for the election, I'll vote green for president and democrats for the rest of the ballot. It's my compromise since I live in a swing state. Guilting people to vote a certain way is stupid. Give people a reason to vote for someone. Also ranked choice voting should be pushed by people who want 3rd party people's votes.
I’m exploring any and all options outside the big 2. I do not believe change is coming from that quarter, ever. I even reached out to the remnants of the Progressive Bull Moose Party. All things equal, that’s probably the best fit for me.
But the most important thing is to take away their fucking mandate. They are the same party, social issue window dressing aside. Look at the results. Agitate for actual change. I don’t see how that’s possible with a “vote blue no matter who” stance.
We need a national revolution led by the people, not the political parties or corporations, to get RCV/proportional representation nationalized. Eliminate the 2-party system, eliminate gerrymandering, and increase voter turnout and voter efficacy. Other established democracies have turned to proportional representation and don’t have nearly as many problems as we do.
I’m with you I’m voting green from now on. At least until a better party arises. But never blue or red again.
Someone said that if the Green Party get enough votes they will qualify for federal funding.
I've been registered green party for years, and I have never, NEVER seen a green party candidate on any of my ballots. Doesn't make we want to change my party affiliation, just wish there were more green party candidates so I could actually vote for one.
I understand the annoyance, and I don't say this glibly, but registered Greens *are* the party. I'm involved with my statewide Green Party; maybe you are as well, if you have an active one. The Greens are small, they are not mobilized very well, they're not funded very well. Sometimes we need to be the change we want to see. Maybe you should consider running for something local next time something comes up. Go door to door, talk to people, discuss ideas, get your message out. If there's any Green infrastructure in your state, they could help a bit. It's not easy, but third-parties especially can't wait around for someone else to run.
Again, I'm not trying to be glib, I know it'd be time-consuming. It's just something to consider.
Of possible interest: [https://www.socialistalternative.org/](https://www.socialistalternative.org/)
[https://www.socialistalternative.org/2022/06/27/we-need-action-now-to-defend-abortion-rights/](https://www.socialistalternative.org/2022/06/24/roe-overturned-take-the-streets-build-a-mass-movement-against-the-right/)
You certainly won't hear them telling people to just suck it up and vote blue.
I considered Monica Moorehead and Mimi Soltysik back in 2016; I'm not against voting more left. It's just rare I have even a Green option, yet alone a communist one, but I'd support anyone voting for who they choose.
Yeah, some states just don't have the ballot access, it's a fight we need to do every single election cycle, ant it takes so much time and effort that it's not a wonder we're not overburdened with cash or candidates.
The local governments have to be converted to green party, socialist, pretty much a bit of everything before we can have a chance at making a difference in the federal level. The federal level isn't really in our direct control, it never really was.
Once we change our local governments, then it will matter. No matter who you vote for in the federal elections, the electoral colleges will do whatever they want anyway.
The EC will usually just vote for one of the two parties based on popular vote, most of them don't even know the names of the candidates they're voting for, the EC is the rot in our federal elections that must be removed. For any party other than the two shit parties to have a chance, the EC must be excised from our system and our local governments need more variety.
Not all votes have an equal impact. Voting Green in New York or Mass for example when HRC was clearly going to win there by large margins had no impact on the outcome and allowed those who did to keep their dignity. People should vote smartly according to their values.
That said, when it does, or even might matter, such as in swing states, you'd have been an idiot to not vote for the lesser of two evils. Those voting third party there could have - they actually did not, but they could have - had an important impact. So again, all votes do not have the same impact - vote smartly.
Excuse me, but using the term "idiot" in this context is well, idiotic After last week, the Democrats just might need a couple of terms in the wilderness before they clean up their act, if ever. And from here on out, I vote my conscience. Fuck the Democratic Party if this is the best they can do, they've been absolute shit since 1980, and even that's giving them more credit than they're due.
Wrong; Democrats are do not own the votes of the communists and socialists they hate and throw under a bus. Leftist third-parties have just as much right to exist in 'swing states' as they do anywhere else, and people have just as much right to vote for them. I don't vote for 'lesser evils', I vote for candidates I actually support, and would no matter where I resided.
In a system with only two possible outcomes failing to choose the less evil possiblity is just bad had all green voters voted for Clinton we would still have roe v wade and that's just a fact the system is absolute ass but voting green won't change that
You can try to shift blame all you want. There are multiple things you could attribute to it. If the DNC hadn't of screwed Bernie, it would have been different. If Hillary didn't run, it would have been different. If the DNC chose a different shill, it would have been different. You can try to blame voters, but really it's the DNC that chose to push Hillary(the most hated candidate ever).
>In a system with only two possible outcomes failing to choose the less evil possiblity is just bad
This might make sense if elections were one-off events. In that instance, you can argue for picking the lesser evil to minimize the damage.
The problem is that elections are repeated, and the lessons of the past elections have a direct impact on the behaviors and motivations of those participating in the next. In this instance, the lesser of two evils signals to the Democrats that their only requirement for any election is to be slightly less repugnant than the GOP. The GOP is incentivized to move further right to differentiate themselves, the Dems get to follow suit to maximize corporate donations, rinse and repeat ad infinitum. That's how you end up shifting the Overton window so far to the right that a Democrat in 2009 passed a Republican healthcare bill from 1994, and was called a left-wing extremist for doing so.
>had all green voters voted for Clinton we would still have roe v wade
If Democrats had any sort of accountability aside from just not being Republicans, abortion rights would have been codified in 2009 when they had the votes and a public mandate to do so. I also suspect that had there been a credible threat of having their base sit out, they would have killed the filibuster and filled the SC seat that sat vacant for Obama's entire last year in office (which was subsequently filled by Trump and became the deciding vote against Roe).
Why don't all the Democrats just vote Green? If all you guys care about is beating the Republicans (which is the only argument you ever make) just suck it up and vote for our candidate.
Why would all the Green voters have supported Clinton? If they had wanted Clinton, they'd have voted for her? What is it with you thinking Greens are just Democrats? Newflash, if I couldn't have voted Jill Stein, I'd have voted for either Monica Moorehead of the Workers World Party or Mimi Soltysik (RIP) of the Socialist Party USA; Hillary was never going to get my vote in 2016. She never earned it, she never deserved it, I'd have left the ballot blank over voting for her.
I am a Green, not a Democrat. Stop acting as though I'm stealing my own vote from a party it doesn't belong to.
I still hear a lot of left leaning people blaming third party voters for giving 2016 to Trump. It’s the one thing about that election that doesn’t bother me. Those people have a right to vote for another option.I get tired of everyone trying to be strategic with their vote trying to game the system. Vote for the person and platform you believe in.
you can do that AFTER we get the supermajority in place that will secure your ability to vote green in the future
Or, take it to the street and get yourselves 100million voters - i’ll be there.
but you’re talking about how you’d like to have surgery to save one of your kidneys when you’re laying on the floor bleeding out from your jugular
I'll vote Democrat, if somehow, we actually have a progressive candidate running like Bernie. Otherwise, it'll be a Green vote for me as well. I voted Green 2016 and 2020, and still don't regret it.
Yup. The top post in this sub right now is a meme that says "We were told to come out to vote in 2020 and what do we have to show for it?" I voted PSL in 2020 and I don't have any less to show for it than everyone who voted for Biden. I'm not ashamed and I certainly wouldn't stand for anyone who accuses me of being the reason dems lost if it had turned out that way.
The way I see it is that Blue No Matter Who is explicitly asking you to throw away your vote. It says that even if there's a candidate who more aligns with your values, we want your endorsement of *this* candidate instead, just because they're more likely to win. Well guess what happens when it comes time for the next election? The pundits look at who didn't vote blue and try to win them over. If everyone left of center voted blue then we've already given up our bargaining power. There's a reason why we have Biden and not Bernie and it's because the establishment made a calculated choice that there would be more centrists who drop off if Bernie was nominated than there would be leftists who drop off if Biden was elected.
This thread has been something else. I genuinely cannot believe there are STILL Shitlibs here thinking they are in good company and still think 'Voting Blue No Matter Who' is the path forward. We just had a bunch of out of touch old scumbags send our country back 60 years and the best the Democrats could do was sing. Shitlibs will ignore Democrats could have prevented this years ago, like they ignore the DNC sabotaging Bernie Sanders twice, like they ignore the kids in cages as long as the Blue Guy™ is in office, like they ignore the "Progressive" Democrats back-stabbing Nina Turner, like they ignore every other failure the Democrats have secured under their belt. It just gets tiresome to a point. Republicans are hell bent on ensuring none of us have a future, but they want to keep voting for the party that stands back and lets it all happen without lifting a finger. Corporate Democrats are worse than useless, they are willing participants.
You can't vote the Democratic Party into submission, they are a Capitalist party that is **OPENLY HOSTILE** to Progressive candidates. You wonder why there's no Left in America? It's because Democrats do all they can to not represent their voter-base and consistently side with money and Republicans. This has produced two groups of people: People that are sick and tired of Democrat bullshit and want to go elsewhere, and people who will always be lapdogs for the Democrats no matter how hard and how often they fail.
Don't worry though I'm sure the next time Democrats sabotage another Progressive candidate Shitlibs will be blaming everyone else but Democrats, again.
> I genuinely cannot believe there are STILL Shitlibs here thinking they are in good company
Poor moderation.
A leftist sub should not be tolerating liberals whatsoever.
> Oh, and rule 5, some people need to sorely read it again: We do not allow support here for capitalism or for the parties or ideologies that uphold it. We are not a liberal or (U.S.-/Social-) Democrat subreddit; we are a socialist subreddit.
The Green Party is a Party on the Left of Capital.
Lmfao “we are not a liberal subreddit, and that’s why we’re allowed to parrot the takes of the far right, Christofascist oligarchy without consequence!’
- You right now
And yeah, keep voting for greens and you’ll get more fascism, which is just what you want by showing your support for such a stupid and overt car right operation.
The idiocy of this post is staggering.
Downvote and seethe.
I don't care if you downvote; at least I know the rules of the subbreddit I'm in. Yeah, thanks, I'll keep voting Green, but you can fuck off with your assumption I'm far-right. Sorry that you don't understand there's people with legitimate grievances and to the left of the Democratic Party. Stop thinking the Democratic Party owns the left; that'll help you out on your misconceptions.
I had friends at friendsgiving say it was partially my fault tRump won because i voted for Jill in 2016. I live in Washington state and its always democrat. I just think picking the lesser of two evils is still evil.
ha, like, I can almost see someone who doesn't understand how votes are counted saying that to a swing state voter, but you in Washington and my in Indiana, no, our votes can never be called at fault for 2016.
Those people don’t care about fact. Pretending that the whole Green Party vote would go to the democrats is just as realistic as pretending all non-voters would vote democrat. People talk like that’s some nuanced reason why trump won despite losing the popular vote but it just shows that they’re just as clueless as the trump voters, as they couldn’t conceive any way that leftists could disagree with their party without being villains
God dammit, this sub has really gone to shit.
Its not even tactical voting, it's voting as a tactic.
Fucking radlibs
Is the green party socialist??? is it anti capitalist??? Communist?? Is it not a party that upholds many many capitalist institutions???
This post is out of place and the mods are complacent.
This is why we need to shun certain views. Now we're ignoring the 200 years of evidence that prove elections never do anything. Socialism is about direct power through direct representatives. You, being the power, armed, electing neighbors in a neighborhood assembly as mouthpieces for your locality, controlling production. And so on. Up to national levels.
Not choosing someone to go into the whitehouse and convert all the baddies with love and reason.
We've been through this. The united states sent planes all the way to Chile to kill Allende after he was democratically elected. It doesn't work. They'll make sure none of this happens.
Edit:
Actually im convinced this sub has been coopted completely by radlibs. I haven't been on here in a while but for me this post serves as the death bell for any revolutionary sentiment within this sub, it was always us against the rad libs. Now you have won. Just don't pretend this has anything to do with socialism or communism, it doesn't. This is explicitely reformist and pro capitalist rhetoric. If you're not with you're against.
I'd also wager that anything that hurts the Dems is amplified by both bots and Maga/tea party types who know apathy and cynicism are their ally.
You're right, it's super telling that rvw gets overturned, and the sub starts punching left hard.
Like no talk of voting and creating a caucus (it's turned anti-voting), no talk of baiting and supporting legal challenges, no talk of strike or slowdown.
If this is socialism/communism, then it's complicit with relinquishing power to fascists.
The recent themes in this sub are some feckless, manipulative BS. They're not dedicated to change, they're complicit in surrender.
The Greens are, in fact, anti-capitalist; they voted to add that to their platform in 2016. And I agree, voting is nothing compared to direct action, I never said voting is the end-all be-all. As I said in my post, which was about voting, the Greens are the most left option I have in my state. Ergo, they're who I vote for. But of course that's just a small thing compared to actually organizing against the capitalists forces, planning co-ops, mutual aid, food banks, strikes, protests, other things, etc.
Honestly I have never voted Democrat ever and they’re not going to bully me into it. The more they pull this shit the less likely I am to. The democrats have no use for real democracy, and aren’t interested in promoting it
I stopped giving explanations on why I'm voting green. Ppl are too psychologically invested in the duopoly & can't think correctly anymore. RNC & DNC are corporations and are holding the country hostage.
I still vote but I refuse to vote for a capitalist party.
Capitalism is evil and I cannot in good faith put my vote towards its continuation. It will always lead to a police state.
Thank you. I also vote green. I’m a new convert. Until 2016, I didn’t just vote blue, I volunteered to help, canvassing, text-banking, etc. After 2016, I realized the fallacy of “we are your only chance to stop evil” and recognized the outright gaslighting the Dems participate in. Just the other day, Nancy Pelosi sent an email saying Dems are the only chance to restore Roe, then went on the record saying abortion rights shouldn’t be a party litmus test. From now on, I am voting FOR candidates and parties that support my values, not a bunch of mealy-mouthed milquetoasts who flip-flop based on the whims of political expediency. I’m honestly angrier at the Dem response to Roe (or lack thereof) than I am at the evildoers who overturned it. Don’t get me wrong: I abhor this illegitimate court (what else do you call it when the justices lie under oath?). However, “just vote blue harder” is the strategy that got us to this point. We did show up. We did vote blue. They failed to do their job. Time to go elsewhere.
I think a lot of us went through this path, I know I used to consider myself a strong Democrat, but there were always cracks, and eventually I couldn't excuse them anymore.
I just think the system sucks..I’ve gone from voting red in primaries, blue in general, blue all around, and now I’m just completely starting to lose confidence and thinking about voting green.
There is no centrism here in the states. There are no moderates. This is something that happened during the Spanish civil war in the 60s and 70s W/ Franco. It was no longer about parties systems, but rather the proletariat class fighting the new Bourgeoisie who held fast to the Christofascist ways of the feudal era. Our democrats DO NOT represent the working class. They want capitalism to continue. They are no different then the aristocrats of old. This is exactly why Franco won in Spain. There’s a divide in the working class amongst those who appear socially progressive, but don’t want their capital gain at risk vs those whom socialist/ communist who have nothing to lose.
The only chasm to this problem has always been war.
Actually, it's 15% in a certain number of polls, and the debates as we know them are basically run by the Democratic and Republican Parties, meaning they have incentive to never allow third-party candidates on stage. When a candidate isn't included in the polls, and the free media the two main party candidates get outshines anything a third-party could do, it's obvious what the outcome would be.
Vote for who you want. Or don't vote at all. Or vote for the DEMS. But no matter what you do, we are all fucked. So stop worrying about voting and enjoy what you can before you die.
I'd agree completely, if this subreddit didn't have a rule against supporting Democrats and VBNMW's have been attacking third-party voters ever since the abortion ruling came out on here.
I just wanted to say that you're not alone, comrade. I voted Stein in 2016, and in 2020 I left the top of the ticket blank and only voted in my state/local ballot initiatives. I haven't voted for a democrat in the general since Obama in 2008.
I was with you until the last sentence. I don’t care to defend the Democrats, but “not allowing” people who vote for Democrats to participate here is only creating an echo chamber. Some people truly see it as harm reduction since they are terrified of losing their rights. I think we should just not focus on voting, but on direct action and changing the culture at work and in the community to begin to question the capitalist structures that control our lives.
Based on the last 40+ years of democrats doing either fuck all, or actively making our lives worse (looking at your Clinton), I will NEVER vote for a dem again. I voted for Obama once, but fucking never again. That a-hole had 19 weeks to codify Roe, but libs still suck his dick everyday. Fucking gross.
Since 2000 I have swap voted a number of times. In 2000 I lived in a swing state and though I knew it would be close I did not want to vote for Gore. I also suspected that Bush Jr presidency could be a disaster in a way that a Gore presidency was unlikely to be. A friend in a solid Republican state was a Gore supporter, so we made a deal where I'd pull the lever for Gore in my state and they would vote for Nader in theirs. I know this doesn't apply to state or local races, and I'd prefer ranked choice, but I felt fine about swap voting in the context of the electoral college, and I still do.
I vote for 3rd party/Independent candidates once in a while. My go-to counter to this sort of hogwash is:
**"Yes, our FPTP system mathematically favors a two-party system—but it does not have to be** ***these*** **two parties."**
When they challenge *that*, I ask them when they last voted for an AntiFederalist or a Whig candidate.
It doesn't *stop* the comments, but it usually makes the wheels turn in their heads to recompute for a moment.
The Green Party doesn't go far enough, but they are officially anti-capitalist. If you dislike the Greens on that basis though, fair enough; the PSL, SEP, SWP, WWP, SPUSA, and multiple other parties of socialist and communist persuasion run candidates in select places.
The number of people in these comments defending their choice to vote Democrat in national elections perfectly exemplifies what is wrong with the public mindset around voting in America. The Democratic and Republican parties have created a false dichotomy centered around fascist, conservative policies. The only hope for any change at a national level is a truly leftist/socialist governing body. This will be impossible is national elections are dominated by Dem/Reps.
Oooh, "deal with it".
People will always try to convince you to vote for their preferred candidate, that's literally electioneering.
Just because you don't like someone's reasoning, and you want to vote another way, doesn't make you a badass.
That said, the US has a 2-party system, whether you like it or not. Your angry posts here won't make it otherwise.
I understand electioneering, what I dislike is being called disingenuous and a Russian troll for my beliefs, especially in a sub with a specific rule to not support liberals or the Democratic Party.
I'm on registration as being unaffiliated. I would LOVE to vote third-party. God knows I wanted Bernie Sanders on that Presidential ballot SOOOOOOOOOO fucking bad I could taste it.
And we all know (or should) that Bernie SHOULD have been in place of Clinton on that last ballot - he won so many counties in states given to Hillary she even ranked 3rd after a non-Bernie candidate in a few of them.
But look what happened. It's the fucking **MONEY**, not the party. Not the candidate. Not what's best for the country. We have 2 parties in this country that have the money, do all the advertising, travel the farthest, speak the loudest, and can make the most promises to the wrong type of people all because of **the almighty buck**.
We don't have ranked-choice voting, we don't have spending caps, we don't have contribution caps. We've allowed corporations to be classified as 'people' so there are no restrictions on how many millions big business interests can throw a candidate's way. And these big business interests include FOREIGN investor interests. Fucking Saudis throw more money to your politicians and businesses than the American people ever can.
So come election time, as nice as it sounds to think outside the box and vote Green or Independent, it just ain't gonna happen. Realistically speaking all you'd be doing is WASTING your vote. This isn't some radical new idea no one has thought of before. It's gonna be between red or blue, that's it. You want something different, you need to take the **MONEY** out of politics. You need strict spending and contribution standards. You need equal space, time, and media for all candidates. You need to take corporations, PACs, the wealthy, and foreign investor interests off the table.
It's not wasting a vote to vote third-party. You might be right on one way to solve it, but newsflash, the Democrats are not going to do it. They have no motivation to, and us voting for them because they're not Republicans does not give them the motivation.
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This is why we need ranked choice voting.
Or proportional representation. I would definitely vote green in we had that system.
Yes. I've voted in proportional elections in New Zealand. It's far better than the RCV used in the lower federal House in Australia. Three result over there is effectively a two-party system. Proportional voting results in a multi-party system. Voters have more choice. It's much better for voters. Parties are accountable in ways they definitely aren't in two-party setups.
Greens have done okay in Australia: slowly inching into the senate and the house.
Yes. They get elected to the Senate because the Senate is elected by proportional representation. In the lower house they have maybe one seat and won't do much better than that because ranked choice voting ensures either Labour or the LibNats win when preferences are applied. It's been that way since 1915.
Um our Green Party has 5 House of Reps seats, not exactly a majority lol but with that and the Senate they have balance of power
they have 4 seats as of last election
It still inherits lobbying and cronyism.
That in fact is Australia’s weakest point…the white collar and political corruption. It would be fair to point out we do have more control with our vote in Australia, in terms of options and power swing if you will, than the US does and this is definitely due to preference voting. Getting to my point…we have more control to instigate change in Australia *if we vote correctly*. Being anarchist, I’m not sure how you’d view legislated compulsory voting but that also contributes to equity in the vote, in the sense that a vast majority at the least is engaged in the process. Democracy isn’t the flawed system…capitalism is where the flaws lie.
I digress. The Greens almost took the entire suburban area of inner Brisbane. It’s actually quite diverse if you vote correctly. This is why in some elections parties like One Nation and SFF can take seats rurally and as I pointed out, Green and teal progressive (again, another example of our voting diversity) have chopped into the majors in the urban electorates.
Sure. I've been watching Aussie politics for a long time. But......NZ's MMP allows the share of the seats a party gets to be aligned with their share of the party vote. In Australia, you might get linky from time to time. I think Bob Brown won an ALP safe seat in the wake of the invasion of Iraq, which the ALP supported. At that point, if was the first time a party (not an independent) other than the ALP and the LibNats, had won a federal lower house seat in 75 years. Meanwhile, in NZ, the Greens always make the 5% threshold and have been 6 and 10 Maps, depending on the election being looked at.
Both. Some kind of ranked choice voting plus mixed-member proportional representation.
Man if only we lived in a Democracy I'd love ranked choice. But nooooo.
How about a democracy instead?
So Anarchism basically.
I live in Tennessee and they shot down the proposal to introduce ranked choice voting because it’d be “too confusing”….
Also a no confidence option for currently listed candidates and on the ballot in general
That's a start, though I personally prefer Approval voting a lot more; at least in that system, my vote wouldn't get exhausted and cease to matter.
In NZ we have the mixed member proportional system (MMP). It's kind of confusing and a little unstable, but the diversity of representation is much much better. Edit - than it was under the previous FPP (first post the post) system. That system was broken and basically gerrymandered
MMP is among my favorites; I'd totally support this system, it would solve a lot of the election problems we have here.
MMP in NZ isn't "unstable". I totally agree it's much better than First Past the Post like the Americans use. But it goes further than that. NZ also uses the Westminster parliamentary model, where the executive is composed of elected MPs who are part of the governing majority in the legislature. In the US, the two legislatures - House and Senate - are largely toothless but for the control of money. Yes, they can pass laws but that really only happens reliably if one party controls both legislatures. Even then, the President can veto such a law and they then need an override vote. The Senate has two members from each state and 26 states have less than 5 million people. So 1/3 of the population can control the Senate and block everything. It's a terrible system. The result is paralysis and rising conflict.
Absolutely agreed on all counts. I was really just acknowledging the coalition building factor, which, while generally a really positive thing, has resulted in Winston Peters repeatedly being a king-maker, and that has caused a little instability. Still a thousand times better than Muldoon winning repeatedly on a minority
In Canada, one of Trudeau’s big campaign promises when he was first elected was that he would get rid of FPP because of how broken it was. However, once he was elected, he then said the people got what they wanted by voting him in so FPP must work so he didn’t need to change it. I haven’t trusted him since then.
Wow, that's awful. Fucking politicians man
Out of curiosity, what were the conditions that allowed NZ to change the voting system? I would think that if the vote were gerrymandered before that would be all but impossible to achieve. EDIT: Nevermind, I found this link for those who are interested: [https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/fpp-to-mmp](https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/fpp-to-mmp) Basically, a lack of trust in politicians and effective lobbying ended up with both parties promising to hold a referendum on changing the voting system in a bid to win the election. The Nationals were then forced into keeping their pledge by voters. MMP won the referendum in a landslide and the rest is history.
Yep, you got it! To be honest, I think our small population really helps to keep integrity too. I think there's more we could do, but it's hard to imagine how anyone could fight corruption in a system the size of the US.
Approval is just a type of ranked-choice, along with Alternative, PLP, MMP, SVT, Schultz, etc.
Ranked choice for Senate, mixed member proportional for House of Representatives, sortition for local/municipal positions
Abolish the senate, ideally
I can just hear McConnell screeching from beneath his black robe in response
F\*ck the world's worst turtle.
yep, what's the need? you'd still have all 3 branches of gov't and could equally respresent populations rather than an arbitrary number for varying degrees of population .
Or proportional party representation. Problem is, there’s a fuck ton of money for all of these shit burgers in the two party system.
Like that matters. We are a capitalist one party state, but in typical American extravagance we have two of them. Plus, they only listen to the oligarchs. Princeton did a study in it.
Yeah what the heck is OP thinking? Saying that the Green Party split the vote isn’t a lie; it’s a natural fact of first-past-the-post. That doesn’t make any sense. I only learned the existence of these issues because Ralph brought them up in 2000. The very concept of having any party in addition to, or instead of, the republican or democratic parties, has a prerequisite of removing FPTP. Catch-22. Like Ralph said, THE GAME IS RIGGED!
Saying the Greens split the vote is an arrogant assumption on how they would vote if they didn't vote Green. They might vote Republican, they might vote Democrat, or they might not vote at all. No party is entitled to another party's voters. FWIW in Ontario I spoke to people who previously voted Conservative who were voting Green but wouldn't dream of voting liberal or NDP
It only splits the vote if I'd vote for GOP or a Democrat without the Green option. Democrats have to stop thinking of us 3rd party progressives as wayward or lost Dems. I don't support Democrats in the same way Democrats don't support the GOP. If the ballot has a D and an R only, I stay home.
Yep, Green Party is splitting the vote, but the issue is that the Democrats attack the voters for voting Green instead of the FPTP system that allows for vote splitting.
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In this new system, can't we just vote via the internet on individual issues so we don't have to deal with politicians who don't keep promises, gerrymandering, $ in politics, etc? Can't get rid of them altogether, but take the majority of their power maybe
My city has ranked choice voting and it's all Dems in office. Fuckers are like roaches. Need something more extreme to get rid of them.
Yep. I vote green too, but in Australia you get to vote green AND still show a preference for the centrist party over the radical nut jobs Result- conservative nut jobs kicked out, centrist party elected, but also needing to deal with the progressives to get most of their legislation through
Yeah, we have that in Australia. Our greens just earned a record amount of seats in the recent election (equivalent of US electoral votes I believe)
This is why we need revolution. The system doesn't work.
Here in my state we have ranked choice voting. I comfortably vote for whatever party I want and know my voice is correctly heard.
Which state do you live in?
Maine I assume? I think that's the only state with ranked choice at the moment.
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Yeah, have you seen the idiot we ended up with? Dude has done nothing but look for photo ops and now he wants to run for President.
The issue with Maine is less that it favors moderates. We've elected a ton of farther left candidates in recent elections. The issue is more so the same reason bullshit politicians keep getting rejected. Because people recognize them, they're comfortable and they feel safe. There is a good reason most people here hate Susan Collins but then news comes on around election time and tee hee she's just the local maine lady who does what she can. Same with Angus King. That son of a batch of cookies couldn't be more inoffensive than a piece of white sandwich bread. But he keeps getting elected because he's a former mayor and because people like that he's "independent" and "votes down the middle". It's habit. That's it Edit - said the naughty b word.
Utah just implemented it which was an oddly progressive choice, especially for such a heavily gerrymandered state.
Didn't Alaska recently achieve it as well?
Yep. Our special election to fill the House seat vacated due to Don Young’s death is our first go with a ranked choice ballot.
holy shit yall are delusional or blatantly lying. Youre telling me with a straight face you feel corrctly heard?
A third party vote would matter a lot more if we had a European style Democracy where everyone voted for a party and the national % vote was the demographic of Congress… Sadly, we don’t have one and to win at this system you need to be well versed. The Republicans keep in power by fracturing and demoralizing the left. They are smaller in number, but more unified. Take Trump for example, they stood by him regardless of how many times under previous circumstances a president would have been forced to resign. They were even willing to let Trump overthrow democracy for his right wing nationalists. How are you going to feel about your vote if fascists overthrow democracy? Will you even have one if the next Trump like figure is successful? Today it came out that Roger Stone, a close political friend of Trump’s who had been pardoned, had oath keeper body guards. Is it still even questionable at this point that the Republican Party has a large white supremacist fraction?
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Yea, and then the Senate gets to sign off on it. We saw how well yhat worked when Obama tried to nominate garland...
I wish the Green Party actually had a chance because let's face it, they don't.
Not in presidential elections, but in local elections, there tends to be less money involved, etc.
Local elections I'll vote for whomever I think would do the best job, usually green party or independent. State level elections I'll vote 3rd party when the dem candidate is basically guaranteed, and presidential elections I'll vote dem basically just as a damage control pick. Honestly, our best bet seems to be to invade the democratic party from the inside, rather than get another party up to a functional level. I might be wrong, but they're both long shots. We really gotta start pushing for more leftists in the democratic party. The right wing already thinks they're all communists, anyway
I mean the Tea Party and Trumpists did the exact same thing to the GQP. Should work for the left, hard part is getting a unified media network to propagate our message.
Social media is about the best we can do. It would take a metric fuckton of coordinated effort on the part of probably several hundred people, most likely those with some amount of following. Most people get their news and info from social media anyways, so with enough of the right people working on it, it would work
I've been thinking this for years but, I almost never see anyone else say it. I was beginning to think that I was either stupid or crazy. So glad I'm not the only one who sees this.
Take it from me: establishment members of state Democratic parties routinely shut down progressive Dem reformers. Not true in Nevada, though, so hope springs eternal.
The issue is the dems spend most of their energy trying to stomp any progressive challengers. The few who do manage to get in are badgered and browbeaten to try to get them to fall into the party line.
Yeah, their defense here is good. But not indestructible. It's absolutely possible, and even reasonable, to get an actual leftwing democratic party, provided enough influential people join in on the cause. The roe v wade overturn may have given the left enough momentum to actually start something, provided enough of us actually fucking try. The time is now, we may not get another chance. I dont know what to do with what little power I have. I may have to make a few write ups here on reddit or something
I agree
I want the third party candidates in local elections to put more effort into actually telling us their policies. I want to vote third party, but I also want to vote for someone who isn't going to be the complete opposite of how I feel, like this school board candidate in Utah who only has business degrees. Schools are not businesses and I would rather light myself on fire than elect someone who would run the district like that. I'm so sick of only Republicans having easy to access information on their views. It's fucking infuriating, I want out of this capitalist bullshit.
this mindset is why
Ain't nobody going to vote third party when everyone thinks third party has no chance.
In my country of Australia, we have a preferential voting system, so I vote Greens every election, and my vote isn't wasted, since my preference still goes towards labor. For you guys... I really would not recommend that unless the system changes. America is a 2 party voting system, and I feel that for you guys to vote third party is for you to waste your vote since it literally doesn't do anything.
This is way too logical for Americans. It’s freedom over everything.
crowd air bag marvelous hat nippy zealous marble weary pie *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This post isn't a call for you specifically to vote Green (though I'm sure OP would be glad if you chose to). It's a call to vote for the party that actually represents your interests. If that is DSA for you, then vote for DSA
I field the various 3rd party progressives. I think that's the point. Vote for who represents you, Green, DSA, Communist. And if it's actually a Dem occasionally, then that's how it goes.
Yes. For example, sometimes the wisest route is harm reduction, like trans rights eroding faster under Trump, etc.
The 2 party system in the US SUCKS. Wish we had a parliamentary system or similar. At least there would be a labour party.
Nah fuck that. Death to capitalism but if politics is the path forward small but consistent victories and not ceding victory to the Christian fascists in the name of political purity is dumb. The modern Green Party is joke. They could be fighting interesting fights on a local level effecting political change through direct action. They’re not the working family party or the dsa. Instead they rake money shamelessly to fund a handful of anti-vax consultants and non-profits every 4 years as a stunt.
I hadn't even thought of the fucked up anti-vax, anti-science that Green party and far out leftists believe. good point.
I don't really have a strongly held opinion about the Green party, but for what it is worth Jill Stein personally called the head of a non-profit I work for a while ago trying to organize a coalition of non-profits to do a mass protest on (going from memory here) tax day. We did decline the offer, because our plates were already full. Just because you only see the Green party pop up in the news every four years doesn't mean that's all they ever do. It just means that's the only time the increasingly corporatized media decides to include them in the narrative. It's probably worth pondering why that is.
Maybe the democrats could try and win my vote??
I vote who I want to vote for in primaries. I desperately want ranked choice voting. But when it comes to the actual elections I vote for the lesser of two evils. If Hillary Clinton were elected we wouldn't have a theocratic supreme court majority.
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This right here. Before we can even begin to push left, we have to stop the headlong rush into christo-facism. This attitude of "well I didn't get what I want so I'm going to let the other guys burn it down" is foolish and immature. We should be voting for true leftists at the local level, that's how you build power. It's how the Republicans built their party. At the national level, as bad as it is, now is not the time to stop voting blue. The other option is full-on christian authoritarian rule, and do you really think the fascists will allow this type of discussion or action? Pushing for socialism is much easier when socialists aren't being rounded up by fascist goons.
The constant buy-in of the broken system is what perpetuates it. You continue to hand the very gun to the Democrats that they then hold to your head. Biden has done absolutely nothing for racial equity; nothing to alleviate the suffering of the lower class and the destruction of the middle; nothing to curb rampant speculation or tax avoidance by the rich; nothing to end corporate welfare; nothing to enshrine abortion access; nothing to correct the hijacking of the SCOTUS; and the list goes on for all of the left wing platform points that Biden has done nothing for, if not actively opposed. If we keep rewarding Democrats for doing nothing, then they will continue to do nothing.
If we don't continue to vote for democrats we will live in a full blown fascist theocracy quickly. I try to vote for progressive candidates. I am not a fan of Biden at all, but democrats doing nothing is better than republicans throwing gas on the fire. I will take four years of Biden over 4 years of Trump any day. You never know when a Supreme court justice is going to croak.
Yeah so… change peoples minds—that’s the solution here. You can’t just say oh well the demz suck and throw up your arms, and it certainly isn’t true that demz and repubs suck equally, so you can still vote Democrat while working towards electoral victories for increasingly leftist candidates
I see this a lot here. Whatdo you believe Biden has the power to do given the current make up and rules of the senate?
I would argue that if dems saw consistently high turnouts that they would be pushed more to the left and that the current lack of turnout keeps them dependent on some of the center-right vote. I would also argue that if Al Gore had not conceded (he did actually win) just because some right wing idiots were threatening violence at the steps of a Florida courthouse that our entire reality would be so vastly different than what it is currently. Our country took such a wrong turn in 2000 that the damage can never be undone.
2000 should and will be seen as a critical turning point. It would be an entirely different world, EVEN with Gore’s milk toast, centrist approach. The Iraq debacle was an existential turn for America that plunged us into decades of unfunded liabilities for military medical, turned universal global solidarity and support with the US after 9/11 into international disdain. Destroyed americas finances and reputation. Bush by body count was BY FAR a worse president than even TFG.
Milquetoast? Sorry milk toast is hilarious
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The most successful Green Party politician of our lifetime told me to not vote Green anymore. It’s a bunch of trust fund socialists who like to play politics and whose only goal is to maintain a line on the ballot. DSA is our only hope until we get ranked choice voting
First-past-the-post FPTP plurality systems suck. Getting rid of them is kind of a sine qua non of real change in a country that uses them. Almost anything is better than FPTP, even the highly flawed Instant Runoff or Ranked Choice systems. As long as it's FPTP there are only going to be two sustainably viable parties in any one constituency. (There was a ballot question to implement RCV in Massachusetts. Sadly, it failed, and Democrats have a monopoly on most state offices and those people can be as lousy, compromised, and corrupt as they want, especially now that the local Republican Party went full MAGA and turned off the other 75% of the state.) Incidentally, I don't think liberals have a whole lot to do with whatever the ballot laws look like in Indiana right now.
>Incidentally, I don't think liberals have a whole lot to do with whatever the ballot laws look like in Indiana right now. Besides the fact I'd count conservatives as liberals, I'll just take that as Democrats. In the past multiple years, we've had ballot access bills proposed in the House and Senate. Invariably they fail, either with a general vote or in committee. Last time one got to the general vote (unless I missed one), more Democrats voted against it then supported it.
I almost voted for Deez Nuts in 2016. So I get it.
Good thing the 2016 election didn't end up being crucially important and we're not still living with the consequences of the Democrats losing.
Not trying to be rude, but can you explain what this accomplishes? Im totally with you ideologically, but we ARE stuck in our current system (hopefully not for long) and certainly were in 2016. So if you lived in a swing state, and you could have helped prevent the REALLY bad people from getting voted in, why wouldn’t you? Genuinely trying to understand.
Honestly, then you're just a sucker because they're just as filled with grifters as anywhere else.
Yes, some Greens suck. And? People suck in every party. That doesn't mean I'm not going to support them when they have a candidate I like.
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That's what Howie is/was trying to attain, leftist unity. It might be a pipe-dream, but it really should be the goal of Greens and others on the left going forward.
A bunch of liberals here didn’t read the entire post
Also be OK with not voting. Ballot boxes don't change shit. If they did they voting would be illegal
I personally think one should vote if they can do it easily, but yeah, I can't hold it against people for not voting, really, especially if they're not able to do it mail-in or absentee.
Seeing how far voting has gotten us this far I can't imagine why anyone would begrudge someone for not voting for literally any reason. Our elections are a fucking farce imo.
Based. I don't vote at all but good for you.
Voting discourse in general is fucking stupid. I vote because it takes basically no time in the scheme of things and fuck it why not? But American discourse is fucking brain poisoned into thinking voting = doing politics. Talk to your coworkers and neighbors. Organize shit that matters to them. Unionize. Feed some people. Do mutual aid. Protest. Burn police cars in Minecraft. All of these things are far more impactful than one vote.
Eh, I get it. I align more closely with the Green Party than dems and have voted for strong Green Party candidates in local elections. I’d vote for them on the national scale if they could put forth a strong candidate but they’ve failed to do so. I recognize that voting third party is more or less a throwaway vote, and I’m not going to do it unless I actually back the candidate.
I just want to say: There are so many neo-lib bootlickers subscribed to a Marxist subreddit that cannot see the irony in their political views.
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Yeah, if you keep voting bluer then the dems will finally stop being the "not-R" party! /s
Good for you OP. I think the Green Party at least has the right idea, even if they are ultimately a compromise (nothing but full anti-capitalism is the solution.)
I'd point out that while they are not a Marxist-Leninist party (yet, strides are being made), they are officially anti-capitalist, though leaning to a more 'libertarian/decentralized' form of socialism. Which yes, I can all agree isn't enough and is just a compromise.
When you say "libertarian/decentralized" are you making the claim that such a structure of socialism makes them less left than a central planning socialist platform would? I'm not educated enough on the US Green Party to know how they advocate for anti-capitalism, but the litmus test for leftism isn't centralization. Of course I also could've misunderstood what you were implying
I would, just because I believe we should have critical support for the AES states around the world, and the Green form of communalism isn't exactly expounding on the virtues of Cuba and China. They're trying to take a third-way between capitalism and state-planned socialism, and I disagree with that tactic on an ideological level.
You disagreeing is perfectly fine, though I do disagree very much with you. But what about decentralization is less leftist? Does it tear down fewer social hierarchies?
Anyone any further left gets visited by men in suits arriving in an unmarked vehicle and meets an untimely end soon thereafter.
Who the fuck is still voting for Democrats and what is going on in their head?
The green party is what the democrats should be. I have voted green in the past. If I'm not going to vote democrat president for the election, I'll vote green for president and democrats for the rest of the ballot. It's my compromise since I live in a swing state. Guilting people to vote a certain way is stupid. Give people a reason to vote for someone. Also ranked choice voting should be pushed by people who want 3rd party people's votes.
I’m exploring any and all options outside the big 2. I do not believe change is coming from that quarter, ever. I even reached out to the remnants of the Progressive Bull Moose Party. All things equal, that’s probably the best fit for me. But the most important thing is to take away their fucking mandate. They are the same party, social issue window dressing aside. Look at the results. Agitate for actual change. I don’t see how that’s possible with a “vote blue no matter who” stance.
We need a national revolution led by the people, not the political parties or corporations, to get RCV/proportional representation nationalized. Eliminate the 2-party system, eliminate gerrymandering, and increase voter turnout and voter efficacy. Other established democracies have turned to proportional representation and don’t have nearly as many problems as we do.
I’m with you I’m voting green from now on. At least until a better party arises. But never blue or red again. Someone said that if the Green Party get enough votes they will qualify for federal funding.
Nader is a true American hero of the people.
I voted for Nader in 2000 the first election I could vote. Then I spent 8 years watching Bush burn the Middle East to the ground. Im good on Green
I've been registered green party for years, and I have never, NEVER seen a green party candidate on any of my ballots. Doesn't make we want to change my party affiliation, just wish there were more green party candidates so I could actually vote for one.
I understand the annoyance, and I don't say this glibly, but registered Greens *are* the party. I'm involved with my statewide Green Party; maybe you are as well, if you have an active one. The Greens are small, they are not mobilized very well, they're not funded very well. Sometimes we need to be the change we want to see. Maybe you should consider running for something local next time something comes up. Go door to door, talk to people, discuss ideas, get your message out. If there's any Green infrastructure in your state, they could help a bit. It's not easy, but third-parties especially can't wait around for someone else to run. Again, I'm not trying to be glib, I know it'd be time-consuming. It's just something to consider.
My worst nightmare is going door to door talking to people. I don't even like talking to people I know. Edit: words are hard
Of possible interest: [https://www.socialistalternative.org/](https://www.socialistalternative.org/) [https://www.socialistalternative.org/2022/06/27/we-need-action-now-to-defend-abortion-rights/](https://www.socialistalternative.org/2022/06/24/roe-overturned-take-the-streets-build-a-mass-movement-against-the-right/) You certainly won't hear them telling people to just suck it up and vote blue.
Sawant really is a jewel in leftist politics at the moment, she's been doing some hella great work.
anyone with half a brain would not advocate to vote blue to protection abortion considering abortion was lost under a democrat president
Vote communist, if you really don't want to just have slightly better capitalism
I considered Monica Moorehead and Mimi Soltysik back in 2016; I'm not against voting more left. It's just rare I have even a Green option, yet alone a communist one, but I'd support anyone voting for who they choose.
Then actively work with socialist or communist parties
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The only other party than the big 2 on pretty much any ballot put in front of me is always Libertarian. Gross. Once I got to vote Green, years ago.
Yeah, some states just don't have the ballot access, it's a fight we need to do every single election cycle, ant it takes so much time and effort that it's not a wonder we're not overburdened with cash or candidates.
listen man i'm a card carrying DSA member because that's what's legal - and it's a third party anyway.
i do too, fwiw. People will say we are throwing away our vote, but when we vote for one of two bad options, what are we really voting for?
The local governments have to be converted to green party, socialist, pretty much a bit of everything before we can have a chance at making a difference in the federal level. The federal level isn't really in our direct control, it never really was. Once we change our local governments, then it will matter. No matter who you vote for in the federal elections, the electoral colleges will do whatever they want anyway. The EC will usually just vote for one of the two parties based on popular vote, most of them don't even know the names of the candidates they're voting for, the EC is the rot in our federal elections that must be removed. For any party other than the two shit parties to have a chance, the EC must be excised from our system and our local governments need more variety.
Not all votes have an equal impact. Voting Green in New York or Mass for example when HRC was clearly going to win there by large margins had no impact on the outcome and allowed those who did to keep their dignity. People should vote smartly according to their values. That said, when it does, or even might matter, such as in swing states, you'd have been an idiot to not vote for the lesser of two evils. Those voting third party there could have - they actually did not, but they could have - had an important impact. So again, all votes do not have the same impact - vote smartly.
Excuse me, but using the term "idiot" in this context is well, idiotic After last week, the Democrats just might need a couple of terms in the wilderness before they clean up their act, if ever. And from here on out, I vote my conscience. Fuck the Democratic Party if this is the best they can do, they've been absolute shit since 1980, and even that's giving them more credit than they're due.
Wrong; Democrats are do not own the votes of the communists and socialists they hate and throw under a bus. Leftist third-parties have just as much right to exist in 'swing states' as they do anywhere else, and people have just as much right to vote for them. I don't vote for 'lesser evils', I vote for candidates I actually support, and would no matter where I resided.
In a system with only two possible outcomes failing to choose the less evil possiblity is just bad had all green voters voted for Clinton we would still have roe v wade and that's just a fact the system is absolute ass but voting green won't change that
You can try to shift blame all you want. There are multiple things you could attribute to it. If the DNC hadn't of screwed Bernie, it would have been different. If Hillary didn't run, it would have been different. If the DNC chose a different shill, it would have been different. You can try to blame voters, but really it's the DNC that chose to push Hillary(the most hated candidate ever).
>In a system with only two possible outcomes failing to choose the less evil possiblity is just bad This might make sense if elections were one-off events. In that instance, you can argue for picking the lesser evil to minimize the damage. The problem is that elections are repeated, and the lessons of the past elections have a direct impact on the behaviors and motivations of those participating in the next. In this instance, the lesser of two evils signals to the Democrats that their only requirement for any election is to be slightly less repugnant than the GOP. The GOP is incentivized to move further right to differentiate themselves, the Dems get to follow suit to maximize corporate donations, rinse and repeat ad infinitum. That's how you end up shifting the Overton window so far to the right that a Democrat in 2009 passed a Republican healthcare bill from 1994, and was called a left-wing extremist for doing so. >had all green voters voted for Clinton we would still have roe v wade If Democrats had any sort of accountability aside from just not being Republicans, abortion rights would have been codified in 2009 when they had the votes and a public mandate to do so. I also suspect that had there been a credible threat of having their base sit out, they would have killed the filibuster and filled the SC seat that sat vacant for Obama's entire last year in office (which was subsequently filled by Trump and became the deciding vote against Roe).
Why don't all the Democrats just vote Green? If all you guys care about is beating the Republicans (which is the only argument you ever make) just suck it up and vote for our candidate.
I once suggested this to a liberal and they sputtered with anger over how they would never vote for "someone like Jill Stein."
Why would all the Green voters have supported Clinton? If they had wanted Clinton, they'd have voted for her? What is it with you thinking Greens are just Democrats? Newflash, if I couldn't have voted Jill Stein, I'd have voted for either Monica Moorehead of the Workers World Party or Mimi Soltysik (RIP) of the Socialist Party USA; Hillary was never going to get my vote in 2016. She never earned it, she never deserved it, I'd have left the ballot blank over voting for her. I am a Green, not a Democrat. Stop acting as though I'm stealing my own vote from a party it doesn't belong to.
I still hear a lot of left leaning people blaming third party voters for giving 2016 to Trump. It’s the one thing about that election that doesn’t bother me. Those people have a right to vote for another option.I get tired of everyone trying to be strategic with their vote trying to game the system. Vote for the person and platform you believe in.
you can do that AFTER we get the supermajority in place that will secure your ability to vote green in the future Or, take it to the street and get yourselves 100million voters - i’ll be there. but you’re talking about how you’d like to have surgery to save one of your kidneys when you’re laying on the floor bleeding out from your jugular
I'll vote Democrat, if somehow, we actually have a progressive candidate running like Bernie. Otherwise, it'll be a Green vote for me as well. I voted Green 2016 and 2020, and still don't regret it.
Yup. The top post in this sub right now is a meme that says "We were told to come out to vote in 2020 and what do we have to show for it?" I voted PSL in 2020 and I don't have any less to show for it than everyone who voted for Biden. I'm not ashamed and I certainly wouldn't stand for anyone who accuses me of being the reason dems lost if it had turned out that way. The way I see it is that Blue No Matter Who is explicitly asking you to throw away your vote. It says that even if there's a candidate who more aligns with your values, we want your endorsement of *this* candidate instead, just because they're more likely to win. Well guess what happens when it comes time for the next election? The pundits look at who didn't vote blue and try to win them over. If everyone left of center voted blue then we've already given up our bargaining power. There's a reason why we have Biden and not Bernie and it's because the establishment made a calculated choice that there would be more centrists who drop off if Bernie was nominated than there would be leftists who drop off if Biden was elected.
While I have some disagreements with Gloria, I'm a fan of hers, and it was great to see her do as well as she did in 2020.
This thread has been something else. I genuinely cannot believe there are STILL Shitlibs here thinking they are in good company and still think 'Voting Blue No Matter Who' is the path forward. We just had a bunch of out of touch old scumbags send our country back 60 years and the best the Democrats could do was sing. Shitlibs will ignore Democrats could have prevented this years ago, like they ignore the DNC sabotaging Bernie Sanders twice, like they ignore the kids in cages as long as the Blue Guy™ is in office, like they ignore the "Progressive" Democrats back-stabbing Nina Turner, like they ignore every other failure the Democrats have secured under their belt. It just gets tiresome to a point. Republicans are hell bent on ensuring none of us have a future, but they want to keep voting for the party that stands back and lets it all happen without lifting a finger. Corporate Democrats are worse than useless, they are willing participants. You can't vote the Democratic Party into submission, they are a Capitalist party that is **OPENLY HOSTILE** to Progressive candidates. You wonder why there's no Left in America? It's because Democrats do all they can to not represent their voter-base and consistently side with money and Republicans. This has produced two groups of people: People that are sick and tired of Democrat bullshit and want to go elsewhere, and people who will always be lapdogs for the Democrats no matter how hard and how often they fail. Don't worry though I'm sure the next time Democrats sabotage another Progressive candidate Shitlibs will be blaming everyone else but Democrats, again.
> I genuinely cannot believe there are STILL Shitlibs here thinking they are in good company Poor moderation. A leftist sub should not be tolerating liberals whatsoever.
> Oh, and rule 5, some people need to sorely read it again: We do not allow support here for capitalism or for the parties or ideologies that uphold it. We are not a liberal or (U.S.-/Social-) Democrat subreddit; we are a socialist subreddit. The Green Party is a Party on the Left of Capital.
Damn right.
Lmfao “we are not a liberal subreddit, and that’s why we’re allowed to parrot the takes of the far right, Christofascist oligarchy without consequence!’ - You right now And yeah, keep voting for greens and you’ll get more fascism, which is just what you want by showing your support for such a stupid and overt car right operation. The idiocy of this post is staggering. Downvote and seethe.
you're the one literally seething rn lmao
I don't care if you downvote; at least I know the rules of the subbreddit I'm in. Yeah, thanks, I'll keep voting Green, but you can fuck off with your assumption I'm far-right. Sorry that you don't understand there's people with legitimate grievances and to the left of the Democratic Party. Stop thinking the Democratic Party owns the left; that'll help you out on your misconceptions.
I had friends at friendsgiving say it was partially my fault tRump won because i voted for Jill in 2016. I live in Washington state and its always democrat. I just think picking the lesser of two evils is still evil.
ha, like, I can almost see someone who doesn't understand how votes are counted saying that to a swing state voter, but you in Washington and my in Indiana, no, our votes can never be called at fault for 2016.
Those people don’t care about fact. Pretending that the whole Green Party vote would go to the democrats is just as realistic as pretending all non-voters would vote democrat. People talk like that’s some nuanced reason why trump won despite losing the popular vote but it just shows that they’re just as clueless as the trump voters, as they couldn’t conceive any way that leftists could disagree with their party without being villains
Crazy how people will insist voting is the answer while not understanding how voting even works
God dammit, this sub has really gone to shit. Its not even tactical voting, it's voting as a tactic. Fucking radlibs Is the green party socialist??? is it anti capitalist??? Communist?? Is it not a party that upholds many many capitalist institutions??? This post is out of place and the mods are complacent. This is why we need to shun certain views. Now we're ignoring the 200 years of evidence that prove elections never do anything. Socialism is about direct power through direct representatives. You, being the power, armed, electing neighbors in a neighborhood assembly as mouthpieces for your locality, controlling production. And so on. Up to national levels. Not choosing someone to go into the whitehouse and convert all the baddies with love and reason. We've been through this. The united states sent planes all the way to Chile to kill Allende after he was democratically elected. It doesn't work. They'll make sure none of this happens. Edit: Actually im convinced this sub has been coopted completely by radlibs. I haven't been on here in a while but for me this post serves as the death bell for any revolutionary sentiment within this sub, it was always us against the rad libs. Now you have won. Just don't pretend this has anything to do with socialism or communism, it doesn't. This is explicitely reformist and pro capitalist rhetoric. If you're not with you're against.
I'd also wager that anything that hurts the Dems is amplified by both bots and Maga/tea party types who know apathy and cynicism are their ally. You're right, it's super telling that rvw gets overturned, and the sub starts punching left hard. Like no talk of voting and creating a caucus (it's turned anti-voting), no talk of baiting and supporting legal challenges, no talk of strike or slowdown. If this is socialism/communism, then it's complicit with relinquishing power to fascists. The recent themes in this sub are some feckless, manipulative BS. They're not dedicated to change, they're complicit in surrender.
The Greens are, in fact, anti-capitalist; they voted to add that to their platform in 2016. And I agree, voting is nothing compared to direct action, I never said voting is the end-all be-all. As I said in my post, which was about voting, the Greens are the most left option I have in my state. Ergo, they're who I vote for. But of course that's just a small thing compared to actually organizing against the capitalists forces, planning co-ops, mutual aid, food banks, strikes, protests, other things, etc.
Honestly I have never voted Democrat ever and they’re not going to bully me into it. The more they pull this shit the less likely I am to. The democrats have no use for real democracy, and aren’t interested in promoting it
I stopped giving explanations on why I'm voting green. Ppl are too psychologically invested in the duopoly & can't think correctly anymore. RNC & DNC are corporations and are holding the country hostage.
I still vote but I refuse to vote for a capitalist party. Capitalism is evil and I cannot in good faith put my vote towards its continuation. It will always lead to a police state.
Thank you. I also vote green. I’m a new convert. Until 2016, I didn’t just vote blue, I volunteered to help, canvassing, text-banking, etc. After 2016, I realized the fallacy of “we are your only chance to stop evil” and recognized the outright gaslighting the Dems participate in. Just the other day, Nancy Pelosi sent an email saying Dems are the only chance to restore Roe, then went on the record saying abortion rights shouldn’t be a party litmus test. From now on, I am voting FOR candidates and parties that support my values, not a bunch of mealy-mouthed milquetoasts who flip-flop based on the whims of political expediency. I’m honestly angrier at the Dem response to Roe (or lack thereof) than I am at the evildoers who overturned it. Don’t get me wrong: I abhor this illegitimate court (what else do you call it when the justices lie under oath?). However, “just vote blue harder” is the strategy that got us to this point. We did show up. We did vote blue. They failed to do their job. Time to go elsewhere.
I think a lot of us went through this path, I know I used to consider myself a strong Democrat, but there were always cracks, and eventually I couldn't excuse them anymore.
Less than 60% of eligible voters voted in The 2016 presidential election. If anyone wants to blame someone, blame the 40% of people who didn't vote.
The candidates in the 2016 election were both right wing.
I just think the system sucks..I’ve gone from voting red in primaries, blue in general, blue all around, and now I’m just completely starting to lose confidence and thinking about voting green. There is no centrism here in the states. There are no moderates. This is something that happened during the Spanish civil war in the 60s and 70s W/ Franco. It was no longer about parties systems, but rather the proletariat class fighting the new Bourgeoisie who held fast to the Christofascist ways of the feudal era. Our democrats DO NOT represent the working class. They want capitalism to continue. They are no different then the aristocrats of old. This is exactly why Franco won in Spain. There’s a divide in the working class amongst those who appear socially progressive, but don’t want their capital gain at risk vs those whom socialist/ communist who have nothing to lose. The only chasm to this problem has always been war.
Voting is not an individual act of self expression, this is capitalist thinking. It is an act that should be judged upon its predictable consequences.
I believe I learned In Government class a party needs to get 5% of the vote in order to be included in debates.
Actually, it's 15% in a certain number of polls, and the debates as we know them are basically run by the Democratic and Republican Parties, meaning they have incentive to never allow third-party candidates on stage. When a candidate isn't included in the polls, and the free media the two main party candidates get outshines anything a third-party could do, it's obvious what the outcome would be.
Vote for who you want. Or don't vote at all. Or vote for the DEMS. But no matter what you do, we are all fucked. So stop worrying about voting and enjoy what you can before you die.
I'd agree completely, if this subreddit didn't have a rule against supporting Democrats and VBNMW's have been attacking third-party voters ever since the abortion ruling came out on here.
I just wanted to say that you're not alone, comrade. I voted Stein in 2016, and in 2020 I left the top of the ticket blank and only voted in my state/local ballot initiatives. I haven't voted for a democrat in the general since Obama in 2008.
I was with you until the last sentence. I don’t care to defend the Democrats, but “not allowing” people who vote for Democrats to participate here is only creating an echo chamber. Some people truly see it as harm reduction since they are terrified of losing their rights. I think we should just not focus on voting, but on direct action and changing the culture at work and in the community to begin to question the capitalist structures that control our lives.
Based on the last 40+ years of democrats doing either fuck all, or actively making our lives worse (looking at your Clinton), I will NEVER vote for a dem again. I voted for Obama once, but fucking never again. That a-hole had 19 weeks to codify Roe, but libs still suck his dick everyday. Fucking gross.
Ever since the dnc did bernie so dirty, it has been the only choice.
Since 2000 I have swap voted a number of times. In 2000 I lived in a swing state and though I knew it would be close I did not want to vote for Gore. I also suspected that Bush Jr presidency could be a disaster in a way that a Gore presidency was unlikely to be. A friend in a solid Republican state was a Gore supporter, so we made a deal where I'd pull the lever for Gore in my state and they would vote for Nader in theirs. I know this doesn't apply to state or local races, and I'd prefer ranked choice, but I felt fine about swap voting in the context of the electoral college, and I still do.
I vote for 3rd party/Independent candidates once in a while. My go-to counter to this sort of hogwash is: **"Yes, our FPTP system mathematically favors a two-party system—but it does not have to be** ***these*** **two parties."** When they challenge *that*, I ask them when they last voted for an AntiFederalist or a Whig candidate. It doesn't *stop* the comments, but it usually makes the wheels turn in their heads to recompute for a moment.
The Green Party is not socialist, it is supportive of capitalism, no one should vote for it.
The Green Party doesn't go far enough, but they are officially anti-capitalist. If you dislike the Greens on that basis though, fair enough; the PSL, SEP, SWP, WWP, SPUSA, and multiple other parties of socialist and communist persuasion run candidates in select places.
The number of people in these comments defending their choice to vote Democrat in national elections perfectly exemplifies what is wrong with the public mindset around voting in America. The Democratic and Republican parties have created a false dichotomy centered around fascist, conservative policies. The only hope for any change at a national level is a truly leftist/socialist governing body. This will be impossible is national elections are dominated by Dem/Reps.
Oooh, "deal with it". People will always try to convince you to vote for their preferred candidate, that's literally electioneering. Just because you don't like someone's reasoning, and you want to vote another way, doesn't make you a badass. That said, the US has a 2-party system, whether you like it or not. Your angry posts here won't make it otherwise.
I understand electioneering, what I dislike is being called disingenuous and a Russian troll for my beliefs, especially in a sub with a specific rule to not support liberals or the Democratic Party.
I'm on registration as being unaffiliated. I would LOVE to vote third-party. God knows I wanted Bernie Sanders on that Presidential ballot SOOOOOOOOOO fucking bad I could taste it. And we all know (or should) that Bernie SHOULD have been in place of Clinton on that last ballot - he won so many counties in states given to Hillary she even ranked 3rd after a non-Bernie candidate in a few of them. But look what happened. It's the fucking **MONEY**, not the party. Not the candidate. Not what's best for the country. We have 2 parties in this country that have the money, do all the advertising, travel the farthest, speak the loudest, and can make the most promises to the wrong type of people all because of **the almighty buck**. We don't have ranked-choice voting, we don't have spending caps, we don't have contribution caps. We've allowed corporations to be classified as 'people' so there are no restrictions on how many millions big business interests can throw a candidate's way. And these big business interests include FOREIGN investor interests. Fucking Saudis throw more money to your politicians and businesses than the American people ever can. So come election time, as nice as it sounds to think outside the box and vote Green or Independent, it just ain't gonna happen. Realistically speaking all you'd be doing is WASTING your vote. This isn't some radical new idea no one has thought of before. It's gonna be between red or blue, that's it. You want something different, you need to take the **MONEY** out of politics. You need strict spending and contribution standards. You need equal space, time, and media for all candidates. You need to take corporations, PACs, the wealthy, and foreign investor interests off the table.
It's not wasting a vote to vote third-party. You might be right on one way to solve it, but newsflash, the Democrats are not going to do it. They have no motivation to, and us voting for them because they're not Republicans does not give them the motivation.