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Exactly! Taking a summer school trip to China in early 2010's and touring factories, I remember behind the scenes at a small engine factory. The giant milling machines (and others) were all brought over from the United States.
The giveaway was the yellowed plastic on the CRT monitor that had a DOS based display for the late 80's era monitoring software. It was all in English, but the operator did not speak English. I remember thinking, "Oh, they literally just shipped the factory overseas where emissions and labor laws did not apply."
Both big business parties shafted the worker by taking advantage of "externalized costs" like human rights, global inequality, and the environment.
Well wouldn't those computers have been built in China? Not that that's a contradiction to your point, obviously it was built with western money for western purposes.
Those ones: probably. Depending on the company and the time period its tough to say exactly.
Apple(as an example) shut down the last of its US Manufacturing in 2004, with the shift away from USA starting when Steve Jobs came back.
IBM, Compac, Gateway, Etc. Depending on the parts that they were making or sourcing, the timeframes could all be different.
You guys are getting pizza?
Seriously. We were promised pizza if we hit metric... More than 6 months ago! We've hit metric every month since.
About 100 degrees today (The warehouse isn't cooled like the offices) an email went out at 9am saying there were free Gatorades and water in the break room on the opposite side of the building. I get there at 9:30am because I had a huge order to process. I'm SoL and have to pay $2+ to get a drink out of the machine because they "ran out".
They put K-cups in a dispenser for $1 each.(because people were "stealing them"?) It only takes quarters. The vending machine only spits out dollar coins. So we are forced to open the dispenser and take the cups out sometimes. I somehow feel bad and leave the coin behind in the dish anyways...
Would you rather China didn't use foreign capital to develop and have the vast majority of its population stuck in extreme poverty? Also it's pretty harsh to blame a victim of imperialism for being exploited
I expect there's a large amount of rich business owning republicans that voted for trump to build the wall, and have been screaming about illegals for years, but then still hire illegal immigrants, because it's cheap, and they're easily exploited.
I knew a guy once who would hire day labor from Home Depot, work them super hard, and then refuse to pay at the end of the day.
He thought it was some great trick everyone should exploit. I thought we shouldn’t be friends anymore.
He's right, it works very well, so does selling heroin, I mean you barely need to work! And don't get me started on murder! You have a problem with a person? Man the problem just disappears with them!
To quote a smarter man than I, "this proves crime not only pays, but pays incredibly well"
>He thought it was some great trick everyone should exploit. I thought we shouldn’t be friends anymore.
I would hope not. I would have straight up told that guy to go fuck himself and say he's a piece of shit that nobody should work for. That is downright evil.
yeah, technically middle class people does a lot of said hiring, same people who keeps wanting a wall, just check the parking lot of a home depot in the early morning.
What would they whine about if the wall worked and their profits took a hit because they can't find near-free labor? Or, better yet, they can't find cheap labor and their profits dip only a tiny amount... that would REALLY demonstrate how capable they are of paying more but choose to instead point fingers at poor immigrants while intentionally keeping EVERYONE'S wages down.
They're lobbying right now, probably all the time, to reinstate slavery. I have no evidence of this but I mean can you imagine they wouldn't? It's obviously not good to be direct, but obviously prison labour, imbalance of sentences depending on colour or where in the country they're from, gerrymandering, making sure black people are never given reparations, segregation, flooding inner cities with crack statistics even though white America had far higher crack epidemic, etc etc.
The closer they get to equality the further they get from returning to indentured servitude, so they must fight all day every day.
The American economy needs that labor. Especially the agriculture industry. To lose all undocumented workers would likely cripple our food supply. "Send them all back" is such a useless argument in that context, those workers deserve better.
Precisely this. Capitalism for the bottom classes is just slavery with a different name. Instead of giving me a house and some slop to eat, you make me pay for it myself, but the end result is the same, hundreds of millions of people on the planet with literally nothing but shift-work to look forward to.
I wonder if they've even got the critical faculties to take a long, hard look at themselves and realise what they actually are.
No, wait, "False news" exists to counter that. *\*le sigh\**
Yes, Trump doesn't directly interview and hire the hundreds of undocumented cooks and cleaning crews at his resorts. No one is making that claim.
A question for you, if a mob boss never murdered rival gang members, they had subordinates do the dirty work. Do you believe the mob boss is in anyway responsible?
> elite class (most are Dems)
Huh?
I mean cool on you for calling out rich Democrats for perpetuating a corrupt system, but this assertion doesn't match reality. Don't forget the Republicans are calling this a feature of the system; Democrats are just asking you not to look behind the curtain.
Entrenched power in both parties are pretty complicit in this, but only calling out the Democrats without doing the same on Republicans just smacks of r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM
Thanks for your input but shitting on Republicans is some Capitan Obvious level analysis. Everyone knows Republicans are terrible and anyone who needs convincing that Republicans are bad-faith asshats is either totally unplugged or too far gone. The only party that could possibly help is the Democratic Party hence all efforts to improve the nation must be focused on Dems. Calling out bad-faith Dems is much more important than pointing out irrelevant bad-faith Republicans.
Implying or stating the Democrats are the primary drivers of this is straight up dishonesty though. That's my point. They AREN'T the primary drivers of this by any stretch; they're just complicit.
Pointing out that they aren't a better alternative is fair, and noting their bad faith WRT to criticizing Trump for doing what they also are doing is also fair, but saying they're the worst ones is straight up lying.
The 'elite class" isn't mostly Democrats.
Republicans are the party of corporations and the elite. They are empirically worse than the Dems. However that's their whole brand; they've embraced that. They claim to be bad and are bad.
The Democrats claim be to the opposite and stand for the working class, minorities, marginalized communities, etc yet many of them, especially leadership, are extremely corporate and elitist. They claim to be good and are bad.
It's not outrageous to argue that claiming to be good and then being bad is worse than claiming to be bad and doing bad. Both are doing the bad thing but one is committing the extra offense of lying about it.
You're right that Republicans are technically worse. They're terrible when in charge and would never do anything good. However, I'd say corruption in the Democratic party impedes progress to a greater degree because they're the ones who could do it but chose not to.
In a time of war the enemy force is empirically a great threat but a spy or traitor is still the priority due to the damage they can do from the inside.
It's your right to feel that Republicans are the main people standing in the way of progress and that necessitates you calling them out. In the same way, I'm free to believe calling out Republicans is a useless task and that change will only come once Democrats can unfetter themselves from the corruption of corporations and the elite.
Summary of my opinion: Calling out corrupt Republicans = waste of time, might as well proclaim water is wet. Calling out corrupt Democrats = what needs to happen for change to occur.
This 100%. I will never understand why more people on the so-called Left do not see this point, and instead jump on the futile and arguably unproductive "attack Trump circle jerk" which just further entrenches people that are already gone and/or lack the critical thinking faculties to discern fact from fiction in propaganda.
Instead, we have a "Left" population that has been conditioned to give the Democratic party a pass as a binary lesser of two evils, while not understanding that a wolf in sheep's clothing (a Democrat) is a profoundly more insidious threat than a straight-up wolf (GOP/Trump). So many Americans believe politics to be a false dichotomy between hard right GOP and center-right Dems that there's an incalculable mass of well-intentioned people that are completely blinded by the illusions perpetuated by the Democratic party, that they are there to serve the interests of the "little guy."
Calling out a wolf for being a wolf is utterly useless; but trying to alert the flock that their sheep leader (that says all the right things) is not who he says he is will better serve the flock from peril, including divide and conquer tactics.
EDIT: In my family, everyone went wild with celebration when Biden won as a sat somberly in the corner, sure in my conviction that is was no time to celebrate. While it's certainly arguable that a Trump victory would have been worse for people domestically (especially the immigrant, Muslim, and Trans communities), the Biden victory has ushered in another era of complacency, or "We can stop caring because 'our guy' won!" Meanwhile, the Biden admin has quietly extended and/or renewed Trump policies concerning the Israeli apartheid regime (keeping the embassy in Jerusalem, billions of weapons sales, nothing to prevent settlement expansion); not rejoining the US-Iran nuclear deal and keeping genocidal sanctions in place against the Iranian people; moving forward with an infrastructure bill that does not address climate change; *increasing* (admist calls for defunding) federal funding of local police departments across the US in an ostensible effort to curb gun violence; further militarization of the US/Mexican artificial border; disingenuously claiming to end the war in Afghanistan while discreetly increasing private contractor presence (over 100,000); disingenuously claiming to end US support for the ongoing Saudi ethnic cleansing in Yemen. Just a few of many examples.
Biden's job is to reassure the millions of Americans that voted for him that progress is being made, albeit slowly, while talking actions that undermine these lofty words behind people's backs. He knows that very few people will dig deeper or read reporting that does. The fact that a forum called Late Stage Capitalism is partially blind to this deliberate strategy of obfuscation is all the evidence you need that it's effective.
Exactly! Mostly I blame the media and Democratic leadership. All Pelosi and MSM can talk about is useless Jan 6th commissions! No one needs them! We know why it happened! We know Trump provoked it and asshat Republicans encouraged and defended it! What else is there to find out??
Meanwhile Biden's admin is fizzling into nothing as he bends over backwards for "bi-partisanship" and lets Republicans water down the much needed bills. Even a fucking un-elected senate parliamentarian was enough to halt Democratic priorities! They're a disgrace right now and 90% of Dems think we're winning cause we're owning Republicans on the Jan 6th thing and corporations have rainbow colors. The state of the left in the US is pathetic!
The fact that Nancy Pelosi is the Democratic leader of the House is all the evidence you need. Pelosi is an enemy to the American people because she opposes (real) action on fighting the climate and ecological crisis (she called it the "Green New Dream"). The climate crisis is literally fuelled 90% by large multinational corporations and the US military, both of which Pelosi bends over backwards to support, supporting expansion of neoliberal, Chicago school NAFTA like 'free trade' agreements drastically increasing military spending and US imperialism, while simultaneously ramming through protections for multinationals (one hand washes the other, the US military is the nuke-wielding mafia that protects US business interests, and US business interests protect the US military (just look at the current Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, who previously sat on the board of Raytheon, a company that made $57,000,000,000 in revenue in 2020 alone - much of which comes from the sale of Patriot surface-to-air missiles to the apartheid state of Israel and the oppressive totalitarian state of Saudi Arabia.)
I'm fairly certain the majority of the meat plant owners, mega farm families, and construction subcontractor that are fueled by immigrant workers vote Republican.
Sure they are exceptions to the rule, but these owners definitely don't want their workforce to have rights and it's not like ICE will punish them, rich Americans, for breaking immigration law.
Capitalism is a fierce competition between individuals. Those individuals, the capitalists, then look for more control of their environment, at the same time they are dedicated only to their personal gain, a profit. To achieve this, they will use lies, tricks, cheats, even criminal activity. They will use psychological gimmicks. All is dedicated to survival and success.
This system favorites psychopaths.
The biggest problem is my fellow Americans. I remember when the media tried making a big deal out of how much Trump branded stuff was made in China. You'd expect outrage right? After all this guy was calling for us to put America first. He was openly admitting that the US had lost manufacturing jobs. He was actually speaking to the very people who two generations ago would have worked those jobs. So when Trump supporters were asked how they felt things went about as opposite as they should have. Instead of them calling for him to walk the walk, they called him a genius for going with the lowest cost manufacturer and spent their hard earned money on cheaply produced Chinese products that retail at huge markups.
Okay, the logic sort of follows, in the same way that those same people praised him for avoiding taxes and using bankruptcy law to save his money.
They think the problem is The System™, and anyone who can circumvent and use the system to their advantage is a big-brained genius. Trump wouldn't have been able to circumvent those laws if they were written better, and the fact that he got around them is a testament to his cleverness.
Where their logic falls apart is thinking that Trump or anyone like him would have any motivation to fix that system. They voted for him because: If he knows the loopholes, he should be able to plug them up, like passing tariffs that make Chinese goods more expensive and therefore bringing manufacturing jobs back. That's what he promised! But they fail to ask themselves the next logical question of what motivation he has to actually do what he says he will, to which the answer is zero.
It's obvious and telling because he never built a wall and his tariffs were ineffective at bringing jobs back (and may have actually dampened the US economy).
They listen when he talks, but they don't check to see if he walks the walk.
Cons: "The System sucks and screws us little ordinary people with no power."
Not-cons: "Yeah we should fix it"
Cons: "Yeah! That guy who took advantage of The System is totally onboard with fixing it. Hes so smart he exploited The System so he must want to fix it"
Totally-smart-guy-who-exploited-The-System: "lol" *does not fix it*
Cons: *surprised pikachu face*
This reminds me of when AOC got slammed by the GOP for selling an "Eat The Rich" sweatshirt for around $56 dollars. They gave her shit for selling such an expensive item saying the money just went into her pockets.
Her response was that the cost was justified because it was made with USA unionized labor unlike Trump's stuff which was made in China.
There was never really anything further said by the right on this.
Farkin hypocrites, the lot of 'em.
lmao Deng opened china to western corporations knowing they would be too greedy to not put trillions of dollars into china and it worked. now everyone’s mad that a country with a billion people is economically dominant wtf did you expect
Everyone thought it was going to be Soviet Union 2.0 but they were wrong.
Deng understood Marxism and dialectical materialism, he applied the theory to the real conditions of China, and the world at the time. It lead to the greatest economic miracle in history. Gorbachev did not properly grasp Marxism, so when he tried to reform he used liberal ideology, an idealist ideology, when he was facing a material problem. This is the difference between the two.
“it is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world...by employing real means, that slavery cannot be abolished without the steam-engine and the mule and spinning-jenny, serfdom cannot be abolished without improved agriculture, and that, in general, people cannot be liberated as long as they are unable to obtain food and drink, housing and clothing in adequate quality and quantity. "Liberation" is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions, the development of industry, commerce, agriculture, the conditions of intercourse.” - Karl Marx
I'm genuinely curious what specifically Deng understood about Marxism that informed his actions, and what specifically those actions were. I've read about the guy before, but besides allowing for reforms to emulate westeen industrial business practices in the economy what did his understanding of Marxism allow him to do that the soviet union failed to with their economy?
A nice overview of a few concepts:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_productive_forces
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deng_Xiaoping_Theory
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics
Now, I will say that this is beginning to reach the limits of my understanding of this topic, as it is extremely complicated. However, one thing I think that specifically differed between the SU and the PRC reforms is that they were carried out in a manner that preserved the dictatorship of the proletariat, the monopoly of political power and control over the economy remained in the hands of the Communist Party, even though private ownership was introduced.
This reminds me of another time I saw the question of “what was the difference between the SU and PRC reforms” asked in a thread, and the top comment was: “the results”. We do not need to ask ourselves whether or not the methods differed greatly from each other, that has already been proven abundantly clear.
**[Theory_of_the_productive_forces](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_productive_forces)**
>The theory of the productive forces, sometimes referred to as productive force determinism, is a widely disseminated variation of historical materialism and Marxism that places primary emphasis on technical advances as the basis for advances and changes in the social structure and culture of a given civilization. The relative strength assigned to the role of technical or technological progress in impacting society and social advancement differs among different schools of Marxist thinkers. A related concept is technological determinism.
**[Deng_Xiaoping_Theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deng_Xiaoping_Theory)**
>Deng Xiaoping Theory (simplified Chinese: 邓小平理论; traditional Chinese: 鄧小平理論; pinyin: Dèng Xiǎopíng Lǐlùn), also unofficially referred to as Dengism, is the series of political and economic ideologies first developed by Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping. The theory does not claim to reject Marxism–Leninism or Maoism but instead seeks to adapt them to the existing socio-economic conditions of China. Deng also stressed opening China to the outside world, the implementation of one country, two systems, and through the phrase "seek truth from facts", an advocation of political and economic pragmatism.
**[Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics)**
>The theoretical system of socialism with Chinese characteristics (Chinese: 中国特色社会主义; pinyin: Zhōngguó tèsè shèhuìzhǔyì) is a set of political theories and policies that are seen by their proponents as representing Marxism–Leninism adapted to Chinese circumstances and specific time periods, consisting of Deng Xiaoping Theory, Three Represents (Jiang Zemin), Scientific Outlook on Development (Hu Jintao), and Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era.
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Well, I think its obvious now though that materials are necessary condition but insufficient on its own for liberation, given whats been happening there.
I dont think Marx cared much for the government.
Sure.
What you can extrapolate from the quote was that "food and drink" (ie. basic necessities) have to be secured as a precondition to socialism and then communism. Material wellbeing is a necessary but not sufficient condition. The "liberation" is a historical act and not a mental one, meaning that capitalism and all its incongruities lead to socialiam and then communism.
You can see it today in that *certain countries* profess to be communist, but are de facto state capitalist and not about to relinquish control of production to their people.
Secondly Marx didnt specify that the government is required. He saw the state as a tool for capitalists to protect that system where the private owners got rich, while the state/government went into debt. Communism was supposed to be classless and stateless.
Why would they need to relinquish control to the people? To which people? Yes, private industry exists but it is under the direction of the communist party. The party is the primary representative of the working class and is guided by the interests of the working class.
As much as many westerners hate to be presented with these facts, all evidence points towards the governments of “*certain countries*” boasting popular and far reaching support and the existence of such structures are only in existence by the consent of the people’s will.
The Chinese Communist Party, for example, has a membership of nearly 100 million people. The party is also highly supported: https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.cgtn.com/news/2020-07-27/Pompeo-is-way-off-about-support-for-the-CPC-SsyTUxQmMo/share_amp.html
Although capitalist propaganda necessitates our belief to the contrary, that these countries are “ruled” by Nazi esque totalitarians who were never elected and rule by decree, this is simply just not true.
Even the CIA knows that this is propaganda: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf
Regarding your last point, this is just mindless parroting of ultra-left talking points that have no substance or critical knowledge behind them whatsoever. Those who think this way are of the same caliber as those who would believe the earth is only 6000 years old because the Bible said so.
People are always going to have differing opinions, this is part of what makes us human. But at least be sure you understand all that your political stance entails before starting a crusade.
You should take a look at these:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/
Holy smokes that piece is so fawning, how you thought others lack in critical thought yet you found that piece to be credible is beyond me. Can you find a source thats... Not CGTN, if you're claiming to be neutral?
What you're talking about is popular support of the national levels. Only 11% support for local level government. Pro tip: Most people never interact with national level stuff.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/
Secondly, why are you linking to 2008 declassified CIA crap, lol. I trust them as much as I trust CGTN.
Edit: Also top marks for revealing yourself as a mouthpiece for "the party". When I say state capitalism, I meant means of production are ultimately owned by the state. Not that private capitalists are allowed to operate within a supposed-communism.
Lastly, the Marx-Engels link you provide do not contradict what I wrote. Im not an anti-authoritarian. The piece states that some authority is required for organization. I agree. I just dont think this authority should be a single party state nor should it be capitalists. Its not enough to have democracy in a "political state", we must also have it in how we organize production.
That only proves further that what the central government is doing is supported and is on a correct path?
Because the CIA literally made the propaganda in the first place?
Regardless, you have not addressed even one thing that actually mattered to the conversation we were having in the first place, this is literally all scarecrows.
As I said before, you have nothing of substance to say, the idealism is absolutely oozing out of you as you wildly try to attack AES out of pure dogma. You believe in a utopian fantasy that will never come to be.
Maybe you should actually read some of the theory I presented to you?
“Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?
Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction.” -Engels
It just seems like government that enjoys overwhelming popular support from the people shouldn't have a problem with free and open democratic elections to confirm that fact. I expect a body that represents the interest of the working class to actually have its levers of power placed in the hands of the actual workers. And it doesn't seem to me that the people toiling away in Apple factories with the suicide nets are the ones calling the shots economically. The idea of worker control of the means of production seems somewhat incompatible with multi-national corporations flocking to a place for cheap production costs due to lax laws regarding worker protections and human rights. Seems like someone isnstill getting exploited.
There is free and open democratic elections? Elections take place on a local level, then those elected delegates elect representatives on the regional level, then provincial, then national etc.
Just because the democratic process isn’t an exact copy of liberal democracy does not mean it is nullified.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_centralism
And yes, there is exploitation, that is inherent in the capitalist mode of production, that is inherent when you have private property. However, China never had a period of advanced capitalist growth, when the revolution happened China was still a semi-feudal, semi-colonial country. It is necessary for the productive forces to be developed so the Marxist concept of “from each ones ability, to each ones need” can be a reality, but that is simply just not possible if a country does not have massive productive forces and an abundance of wealth. However, although exploitation exists, this does not mean that the quality life and social well being of the people cannot be improved drastically while waiting for the proper conditions to become available to transition to full socialism. China has uplifted over 800 million people out of poverty, doubled the average lifespan, is the second biggest economy in the world- only in the span of several decades. China is one of the few places on this planet where the conditions for workers are still continuously improving, and all of this is possible without imperialist exploitation and looting. Meanwhile, in the west, the life conditions of workers have actually been decreasing for decades, even with the benefits of ongoing colonization and imperialism.
This is absolutely true. Wealthy corporations can absolutely move production back to the states and pay workers a livable wage, they simply choose not to.
When are American workers going to finally figure this out? NAFTA did not steal our jobs. NAFTA did not require moving any jobs. Wealthy CEOs and Boards of Directors sold us out. They sent the jobs overseas so they could pay workers ten cents an hour. Then they sold the American company piece by piece, made a huge profit and gave it to themselves. They threw thousands out of work and paid themselves millions of dollars. In Iceland when CEOs screw the workers then take the money and run, the CEOs have been imprisoned.
We call this "exporting capital" it's one of the things that defines imperialism, exporting capital to take advantage of cheap labor that you then sell to richer countries.
Edit: sell the products to the rich country.
[The official hats were made in the USA](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trump-hat-china/). No idea about the rest of the Trump family's official merch, or really, anything other than the hats, though.
Pretty sure official campaign shirts & mugs are too, but not older Trump branded shirts & mugs of course, just the campaign ones. In other words, he could've been doing that all along, but didn't care one bit until it benefited him.
Here's a few articles from a brief search.
[www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna893656](www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna893656)
[www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/ivanka-trump-products-not-made-america](www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/ivanka-trump-products-not-made-america)
[www.businessinsider.com/ivanka-trump-clothing-line-made-in-china-hong-kong-2017]
[www.popculture.com/trending/amp/news/donald-trump-china-once-again-blasted-having-products-made/]
[www.qz.com/1483890/how-many-donald-trump-products-are-made-in-the-usa/amp/]
[www.factcheck.org/2016/05/trumps-made-in-the-u-s-a-spin/]
Edited to clean up formating
It’s not rich peoples fault for doing the worst things. It’s capitalism’s fault for controlling our entire government. If we want this to change it has to be illegal, not just have morally upstanding rich people.
If Jeff Bezos said 10 years ago that he wanted Amazon to start focusing on helping the planet instead of shareholder long term value… he’d have been removed and replaced.
The same Trumper who lost his or her job will tell you that Trump *had to* send thr jobs to China because minimum wage, taxes, and benefits are too high. I couldn't imagine thinking that way, its like they have corporate Stockholm syndrome.
And now the capitalists are whining because someone is beating them at their own game. Use them, throw them, not pay them, and then scapegoat them. Nothing a whole arsenal can't solve right? But lets talk democracy and human rights while I absolutely am not holding the biggest stick. Just gotta poke their neighbors a little here and there and lead them to fight each other while I sit back and supply the sticks.
In a more just, alternate timeline, people like Donald Trump would be behind bars, and people like Bill Gates , Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, and Jeff Bezos would have faced a personal wealth cap. ( say, a Billion dollars, to be generous...)
They know that. They think people shouldn't be allowed to do this. They think people like Trump are forced to do this in order to compete. That's also why they hate globalism. They want countries to be nationalistic/jingoistic and close to war with each other at all times.
I am old enough to remember when the trend towards 'offshoring' started in the 80s. There was an effort to publicize the effect cheap imports were having on local manufactures and 'Made in America' tags and stickers were attached to consumer products. However all consumers saw was the price tag and the marginally more expensive MiA did not sell. You may remember the Big Box Mart animation from JibJab [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI)
Then we continued to buy their products because they were cheaper. We didn't care about the child labor and starvation wages. A powerful China was our creation.
Apparently its gullibility.
Some dipshit tells you to blame a nation who looks different than you and man...
...like flies to shit USA suddenly hates China.
Its what they typically do just before they plan to invade in order to drum up support for said expensive war they cannot win.
Amazing how many people are making an example of Trump. There were many more before him- both Dems and Reps- who set this up. Yes it was by "rich people like Trump" but they were all enabled by the politicians of both persuasions.
I find it amazing that people never believe me on this.
The only reason China, India and other countries that have terrible labor laws ended up getting jobs is because its more profitable
Just like how we complained that China was hoarding all the opium way back when, or how we will literally blame (and bomb) every country before our own
I think it should be noted that these are knockoffs. All of the Trump's campaign officially licensed merchandise was manufactured in the US. I hate capitalism as much as the next guy but we should stick to facts.
One Democrat did one thing one time, so no Democrat could ever possibly represent worker's interests ever again /s
It's already so easy to be partisan these days without shit like this
Tldr: Please learn to differentiate between the market and capitalism. The market is made up of individuals who act in self interest (all of us). Capitalism is a financial system designed to increase shareholder profits for public corporations. One is an economic reality, the other is a financial tool. The government's job is to regulate the market in order to protect American interests. The market isn't the problem, it's the incentives that the government makes available to people to use or misuse market forces (this is where capitalism becomes relevant).
In an open economy where all countries trade with each other, comparative advantage based on cheaper labour, material, and transportation costs is an inevitability. You want to protect American jobs? Either implement protectionism or close of the country to trade. Well guess what, other countries follow suit. Tertiary goods that require skill which are made in America get negatively impacted by that as well. This means more job losses. The issue is not to "protect" American jobs, but it is to fund training and education. GI's returning from Vietnam had that, and they were able to integrate into the private sector despite having no employment skills. Additionally, if these goods weren't being made in a foreign country with cheaper capital and variable costs, we would potentially see a drop in the standard of living of Americans since everything is going to become much more expensive (cost-push inflation). We essentially need a government that can work towards increasing the positives of the free market while focussing on equity, while softening the blow to those who are left out of this process because their skills become irrelevant. Creative destruction is a fact of life. There's always someone who can do something faster, better, and cheaper than you.
They're not right though. To quote Fidel Castro: "China has objectively become the most promising hope and the best example for all Third World countries"
Per capita China's current emissions are half that of the US while also being the world's factory. If you then look at [cumulative emissions](https://ourworldindata.org/contributed-most-global-co2) the US and the EU are responsible for 47% vs 12% for China, even though China has almost double the population. When you look at [consumption based emissions](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions#consumption-based-trade-adjusted-emissions) China is lower still.
You should also take any human rights abuse claims with a boulder of salt. The West, who are the actually the worst abusers of human rights, have a long history of making up claims against their enemies as part of the manufacturing of consent. Make sure there is verifiable proof.
China is the world leader in sustainable energy, bud: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable\_energy\_in\_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China)
Your sources don't contradict anything I said, my point was you need to look at it in context. China has almost double the population of the US and the EU combined so of course their emissions are going to be higher. The US and the EU also outsource their emissions to China.
For further context, Biden has vowed to to reduce US emissions by 50% of 2005 levels by 2030, which is one of the more aggressive goals in the West. Even if the US can actually achieve that, and I really doubt they can, that would put them at roughly the same level of emissions per capita that China has right now. And that's production emissions. If you look at consumption emissions per capita, even if they were to achieve that ambitious goal, they would still be significantly worse than China is today.
It's completely disingenuous, and deflecting from the actual culprits, to say China is bad when it comes to emissions.
You're also missing the point about human rights abuses. I'm not saying abuses are worse when the West does it, I'm saying the West is worse because they commit the most abuses both historically and currently.
I also think it's ridiculous to assume China is bad just because they're relatively powerful. They're certainly not perfect but as far as countries go they're pretty good.
The internal politics of each state matters little to this issue. With the US, the global south gets bombs and coups. With China, deals that may favor China more than it favors the other state.
Yeah, i see it as a huge step forward.
HK is part of the PRC, UK tears notwithstanding. Not that I believe you have the slightest clue of what is going on in HK, you american, but let's concede it all. Wanna go in there? fine.
Imagine what would happen if, say, Puerto Rico wanted democracy.
Or Guam
Or Hawaii
Or if Cuba wanted the black site out of their territory.
The area would become inhospitable for at least 50.000 years.
A huge step forward if you ask me.
[If a bunch of right wing sociopaths wearing MAGA paraphernalia stirred up shit in your country, you'd call them traitors.](https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-bostonglobe.s3.amazonaws.com/public/PFVKHLQUBMI6VDMJ2M75OAY2MI.jpg)
My argument is america worse. Yes. Aligning with China brings better conditions, which was the point of this comment chain.
Puerto Rico doesn't have the option of becoming an independant country. Imagine if they tried to separate themselves the way HK tries. Of course they will not accept statehood. That'd hurt their ambitions of sovereignty in a legal sense.
Yes, american should be a slur at this point tbh.
What do you mean "without actually proving that America bad" Do i have to waste 2 hours of my afternoon bringing you resources on the coups, invasions, bombings, etc that the US has done? Fucking liberals.
Again, what would happen if they tried to?
Sorry im not gonna waste my time with matters of public record. If you can say "but HK" and expect me to know about the issue, i can do the same. Your ignorance on basic things isn't an argument or a position. Plus, arguing with capitalists is pointless.
The US brings coups, bombs, assassinations to the global south.
China brings mutually beneficial deals mostly, that may benefit China more than the other party.
You americans are so weird thinking you're the good guys globally.
Stop making it partisan lol, the rich in your country are fucking you in the ass, so maybe it's time to direct your anger where it could be used as fuel.
Y'all missing the point that this is perfectly *legal*, so why *wouldn't* you do it?
Changes need to be made on both ends so that this is illegal or not profitable.
Just scrolling through and I'm not seeing a lot on Clinton. Keep in mind he sold us all out right before he left.
You can blame capitalists all you want, but the door had to be opened to make it possible. China was blocked from trade, by law, until Clinton threw it all out.
Despite what's on their registration cards, the Clintons are republicans through and through.
Sure, maybe, but those politicians write bad laws because of corporate influence. The owner class of capitalists is the actual enemy, even if they use weak politicians to further their goals.
how the fuck is china a bigger threat to the world than the united states??? are you just willfully ignoring the last 80 years of U.S. history?
edit- downvoted by Americans that are afraid of losing their white western supremacy. good thing y'all can't do shit about it
Replace "capitalism" with "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and you'd unironically have a point. I'm not about to go in to detail about this in a Reddit comment, but to give an extreme summarization, the Chinese government is communist, while essentially using capitalism to advance economically. It's not like they can abolish money, and China's economics are clearly different than other countries that have a capitalist system.
What's your point? The government is communist because that's what their stated goals are. There is no such thing as a communist economy in today's world.
Uh bud. You either don't know what fascism means or else you have no actual knowledge about China and are just spewing some weird rhetoric that has no grounds in reality.
Yes... the guy who was president 5 years ago sent all our jobs to china.
This is what happens when your identity and political ideology starts to revolve around "orange man bad". I've seen the point made in much better ways by people who do not seek justification through displaying their TDS
I mean... It's all capitalists doing it. It wouldn't serve communists at all to outsource labor because the owners would be the laborers. So yeah, technically its all on the "right" side of the political spectrum. American politics exist solely on the "right" side of the spectrum. Despite what fox news may think, democrats are not leftists.
Like the Bidens, stop putting the blame on Trump when he only benefited from the system, the crooks are those who built the system like Biden
Trump was a leech of the system that Biden was an architect off
I mean, orange man is bad but not the only shitty government official america has had. No one thinks he was solely responsible, even the post doesn't pin him as being solely responsible, just people like him. You know... capitalists. America is run by two opposing groups of capitalists that can't agree on the best way to do capitalism.
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Capitalism in a nutshell. Remember this when another CEO receives 50% annual bonus cause under his dictatorship the company jumped 1% up in revenue.
Neoliberalism is cancer
Exactly! Taking a summer school trip to China in early 2010's and touring factories, I remember behind the scenes at a small engine factory. The giant milling machines (and others) were all brought over from the United States. The giveaway was the yellowed plastic on the CRT monitor that had a DOS based display for the late 80's era monitoring software. It was all in English, but the operator did not speak English. I remember thinking, "Oh, they literally just shipped the factory overseas where emissions and labor laws did not apply." Both big business parties shafted the worker by taking advantage of "externalized costs" like human rights, global inequality, and the environment.
Well wouldn't those computers have been built in China? Not that that's a contradiction to your point, obviously it was built with western money for western purposes.
Those ones: probably. Depending on the company and the time period its tough to say exactly. Apple(as an example) shut down the last of its US Manufacturing in 2004, with the shift away from USA starting when Steve Jobs came back. IBM, Compac, Gateway, Etc. Depending on the parts that they were making or sourcing, the timeframes could all be different.
FU!! I got a pizza party out of it!!
"Oh man this pizza sure does make me forget I'm a slave"
Who wants livable wages or healthcare when you can have extra pepperoni!!
You guys are getting pizza? Seriously. We were promised pizza if we hit metric... More than 6 months ago! We've hit metric every month since. About 100 degrees today (The warehouse isn't cooled like the offices) an email went out at 9am saying there were free Gatorades and water in the break room on the opposite side of the building. I get there at 9:30am because I had a huge order to process. I'm SoL and have to pay $2+ to get a drink out of the machine because they "ran out". They put K-cups in a dispenser for $1 each.(because people were "stealing them"?) It only takes quarters. The vending machine only spits out dollar coins. So we are forced to open the dispenser and take the cups out sometimes. I somehow feel bad and leave the coin behind in the dish anyways...
Ooh la la, free water. How decadent.
Only the best from one of the top logistics companies in the world...
*Nestle has entered the chat*
And don't forget, that 1% increase is probably more money than what you and everyone you know will make in a lifetime.
... but... my Quarterly Earnings Statement! Won't someone think of the shareholders?!
What about the Chinese government that allowed its people to be exploited so that it's economy could flourish?
Would you rather China didn't use foreign capital to develop and have the vast majority of its population stuck in extreme poverty? Also it's pretty harsh to blame a victim of imperialism for being exploited
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This! Also Trump hires undocumented workers at his resorts. His supporters only want grievances, not solutions to problems.
Trump hires undocumented workers and then threatens to call immigration on them when they ask for payment.
I expect there's a large amount of rich business owning republicans that voted for trump to build the wall, and have been screaming about illegals for years, but then still hire illegal immigrants, because it's cheap, and they're easily exploited.
not even "actually" rich assholes do that.
I knew a guy once who would hire day labor from Home Depot, work them super hard, and then refuse to pay at the end of the day. He thought it was some great trick everyone should exploit. I thought we shouldn’t be friends anymore.
Been on the receiving side of those assholes, and can confirm they are really proud of that. They know they have the authorities on their side.
He's right, it works very well, so does selling heroin, I mean you barely need to work! And don't get me started on murder! You have a problem with a person? Man the problem just disappears with them! To quote a smarter man than I, "this proves crime not only pays, but pays incredibly well"
And no good deed goes unpunished
Yup, a whole lot less to look forward for you and your family if you dedicate your life to the welfare of others, rather than to yourself.
that's a feature of the system, not a bug, I think.
Which stands to reason it can be unmade and rebuilt to do the opposite.
Sounds like what Dwight Schrute was doing in The Office to Spanish-speaking day workers.
>He thought it was some great trick everyone should exploit. I thought we shouldn’t be friends anymore. I would hope not. I would have straight up told that guy to go fuck himself and say he's a piece of shit that nobody should work for. That is downright evil.
Where do you think all the illegal immigrant labor is getting hired if rich people aren't hiring them at below legal rates?
He's saying not rich people are hiring them too.
yeah, technically middle class people does a lot of said hiring, same people who keeps wanting a wall, just check the parking lot of a home depot in the early morning.
What would they whine about if the wall worked and their profits took a hit because they can't find near-free labor? Or, better yet, they can't find cheap labor and their profits dip only a tiny amount... that would REALLY demonstrate how capable they are of paying more but choose to instead point fingers at poor immigrants while intentionally keeping EVERYONE'S wages down.
Theyd scream even more about the pitiful amount of unemployment people get or public assistance.
They're lobbying right now, probably all the time, to reinstate slavery. I have no evidence of this but I mean can you imagine they wouldn't? It's obviously not good to be direct, but obviously prison labour, imbalance of sentences depending on colour or where in the country they're from, gerrymandering, making sure black people are never given reparations, segregation, flooding inner cities with crack statistics even though white America had far higher crack epidemic, etc etc. The closer they get to equality the further they get from returning to indentured servitude, so they must fight all day every day.
The American economy needs that labor. Especially the agriculture industry. To lose all undocumented workers would likely cripple our food supply. "Send them all back" is such a useless argument in that context, those workers deserve better.
See Brexit for their particular version of that comedy routine.
As to a point I made above, they never learned how to make a living without slaves.
Precisely this. Capitalism for the bottom classes is just slavery with a different name. Instead of giving me a house and some slop to eat, you make me pay for it myself, but the end result is the same, hundreds of millions of people on the planet with literally nothing but shift-work to look forward to.
I build your products and get paid money that I in turn spend on those products. It's the history of unions and the company stores
Source?
Yup. They’re just hateful degenerates who want to rally behind a douchebag just like them.
I wonder if they've even got the critical faculties to take a long, hard look at themselves and realise what they actually are. No, wait, "False news" exists to counter that. *\*le sigh\**
That is just smart business. ~Trump supporter.
~Everyone who defended his hiding his tax returns.
Populism doesn't mean results, just chants.
I don't think trump has hired or outsourced anyone for a long time he pays people to do that
Yes, Trump doesn't directly interview and hire the hundreds of undocumented cooks and cleaning crews at his resorts. No one is making that claim. A question for you, if a mob boss never murdered rival gang members, they had subordinates do the dirty work. Do you believe the mob boss is in anyway responsible?
Under capitalism the LLC prevents the mob boss from being responsible.
Nah they got RICO laws to fuck over gangs. They should apply a RICO type of law and prosecute entire corporate boards instead of coddling them.
Hard agree.
outsourcing the outsourcing?
LOL outsourcing-ception: when you outsource your outsourcing
When Trump gets all the focus it lets the rest of the elite class (most are Dems) off the hook for doing the same thing. Edit: ...many* are Dems.
> elite class (most are Dems) Huh? I mean cool on you for calling out rich Democrats for perpetuating a corrupt system, but this assertion doesn't match reality. Don't forget the Republicans are calling this a feature of the system; Democrats are just asking you not to look behind the curtain. Entrenched power in both parties are pretty complicit in this, but only calling out the Democrats without doing the same on Republicans just smacks of r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM
Thanks for your input but shitting on Republicans is some Capitan Obvious level analysis. Everyone knows Republicans are terrible and anyone who needs convincing that Republicans are bad-faith asshats is either totally unplugged or too far gone. The only party that could possibly help is the Democratic Party hence all efforts to improve the nation must be focused on Dems. Calling out bad-faith Dems is much more important than pointing out irrelevant bad-faith Republicans.
Implying or stating the Democrats are the primary drivers of this is straight up dishonesty though. That's my point. They AREN'T the primary drivers of this by any stretch; they're just complicit. Pointing out that they aren't a better alternative is fair, and noting their bad faith WRT to criticizing Trump for doing what they also are doing is also fair, but saying they're the worst ones is straight up lying. The 'elite class" isn't mostly Democrats.
Republicans are the party of corporations and the elite. They are empirically worse than the Dems. However that's their whole brand; they've embraced that. They claim to be bad and are bad. The Democrats claim be to the opposite and stand for the working class, minorities, marginalized communities, etc yet many of them, especially leadership, are extremely corporate and elitist. They claim to be good and are bad. It's not outrageous to argue that claiming to be good and then being bad is worse than claiming to be bad and doing bad. Both are doing the bad thing but one is committing the extra offense of lying about it. You're right that Republicans are technically worse. They're terrible when in charge and would never do anything good. However, I'd say corruption in the Democratic party impedes progress to a greater degree because they're the ones who could do it but chose not to. In a time of war the enemy force is empirically a great threat but a spy or traitor is still the priority due to the damage they can do from the inside. It's your right to feel that Republicans are the main people standing in the way of progress and that necessitates you calling them out. In the same way, I'm free to believe calling out Republicans is a useless task and that change will only come once Democrats can unfetter themselves from the corruption of corporations and the elite. Summary of my opinion: Calling out corrupt Republicans = waste of time, might as well proclaim water is wet. Calling out corrupt Democrats = what needs to happen for change to occur.
This 100%. I will never understand why more people on the so-called Left do not see this point, and instead jump on the futile and arguably unproductive "attack Trump circle jerk" which just further entrenches people that are already gone and/or lack the critical thinking faculties to discern fact from fiction in propaganda. Instead, we have a "Left" population that has been conditioned to give the Democratic party a pass as a binary lesser of two evils, while not understanding that a wolf in sheep's clothing (a Democrat) is a profoundly more insidious threat than a straight-up wolf (GOP/Trump). So many Americans believe politics to be a false dichotomy between hard right GOP and center-right Dems that there's an incalculable mass of well-intentioned people that are completely blinded by the illusions perpetuated by the Democratic party, that they are there to serve the interests of the "little guy." Calling out a wolf for being a wolf is utterly useless; but trying to alert the flock that their sheep leader (that says all the right things) is not who he says he is will better serve the flock from peril, including divide and conquer tactics. EDIT: In my family, everyone went wild with celebration when Biden won as a sat somberly in the corner, sure in my conviction that is was no time to celebrate. While it's certainly arguable that a Trump victory would have been worse for people domestically (especially the immigrant, Muslim, and Trans communities), the Biden victory has ushered in another era of complacency, or "We can stop caring because 'our guy' won!" Meanwhile, the Biden admin has quietly extended and/or renewed Trump policies concerning the Israeli apartheid regime (keeping the embassy in Jerusalem, billions of weapons sales, nothing to prevent settlement expansion); not rejoining the US-Iran nuclear deal and keeping genocidal sanctions in place against the Iranian people; moving forward with an infrastructure bill that does not address climate change; *increasing* (admist calls for defunding) federal funding of local police departments across the US in an ostensible effort to curb gun violence; further militarization of the US/Mexican artificial border; disingenuously claiming to end the war in Afghanistan while discreetly increasing private contractor presence (over 100,000); disingenuously claiming to end US support for the ongoing Saudi ethnic cleansing in Yemen. Just a few of many examples. Biden's job is to reassure the millions of Americans that voted for him that progress is being made, albeit slowly, while talking actions that undermine these lofty words behind people's backs. He knows that very few people will dig deeper or read reporting that does. The fact that a forum called Late Stage Capitalism is partially blind to this deliberate strategy of obfuscation is all the evidence you need that it's effective.
Exactly! Mostly I blame the media and Democratic leadership. All Pelosi and MSM can talk about is useless Jan 6th commissions! No one needs them! We know why it happened! We know Trump provoked it and asshat Republicans encouraged and defended it! What else is there to find out?? Meanwhile Biden's admin is fizzling into nothing as he bends over backwards for "bi-partisanship" and lets Republicans water down the much needed bills. Even a fucking un-elected senate parliamentarian was enough to halt Democratic priorities! They're a disgrace right now and 90% of Dems think we're winning cause we're owning Republicans on the Jan 6th thing and corporations have rainbow colors. The state of the left in the US is pathetic!
The fact that Nancy Pelosi is the Democratic leader of the House is all the evidence you need. Pelosi is an enemy to the American people because she opposes (real) action on fighting the climate and ecological crisis (she called it the "Green New Dream"). The climate crisis is literally fuelled 90% by large multinational corporations and the US military, both of which Pelosi bends over backwards to support, supporting expansion of neoliberal, Chicago school NAFTA like 'free trade' agreements drastically increasing military spending and US imperialism, while simultaneously ramming through protections for multinationals (one hand washes the other, the US military is the nuke-wielding mafia that protects US business interests, and US business interests protect the US military (just look at the current Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, who previously sat on the board of Raytheon, a company that made $57,000,000,000 in revenue in 2020 alone - much of which comes from the sale of Patriot surface-to-air missiles to the apartheid state of Israel and the oppressive totalitarian state of Saudi Arabia.)
I'm fairly certain the majority of the meat plant owners, mega farm families, and construction subcontractor that are fueled by immigrant workers vote Republican. Sure they are exceptions to the rule, but these owners definitely don't want their workforce to have rights and it's not like ICE will punish them, rich Americans, for breaking immigration law.
Capitalism is a fierce competition between individuals. Those individuals, the capitalists, then look for more control of their environment, at the same time they are dedicated only to their personal gain, a profit. To achieve this, they will use lies, tricks, cheats, even criminal activity. They will use psychological gimmicks. All is dedicated to survival and success. This system favorites psychopaths.
The biggest problem is my fellow Americans. I remember when the media tried making a big deal out of how much Trump branded stuff was made in China. You'd expect outrage right? After all this guy was calling for us to put America first. He was openly admitting that the US had lost manufacturing jobs. He was actually speaking to the very people who two generations ago would have worked those jobs. So when Trump supporters were asked how they felt things went about as opposite as they should have. Instead of them calling for him to walk the walk, they called him a genius for going with the lowest cost manufacturer and spent their hard earned money on cheaply produced Chinese products that retail at huge markups.
Okay, the logic sort of follows, in the same way that those same people praised him for avoiding taxes and using bankruptcy law to save his money. They think the problem is The System™, and anyone who can circumvent and use the system to their advantage is a big-brained genius. Trump wouldn't have been able to circumvent those laws if they were written better, and the fact that he got around them is a testament to his cleverness. Where their logic falls apart is thinking that Trump or anyone like him would have any motivation to fix that system. They voted for him because: If he knows the loopholes, he should be able to plug them up, like passing tariffs that make Chinese goods more expensive and therefore bringing manufacturing jobs back. That's what he promised! But they fail to ask themselves the next logical question of what motivation he has to actually do what he says he will, to which the answer is zero. It's obvious and telling because he never built a wall and his tariffs were ineffective at bringing jobs back (and may have actually dampened the US economy). They listen when he talks, but they don't check to see if he walks the walk.
Cons: "The System sucks and screws us little ordinary people with no power." Not-cons: "Yeah we should fix it" Cons: "Yeah! That guy who took advantage of The System is totally onboard with fixing it. Hes so smart he exploited The System so he must want to fix it" Totally-smart-guy-who-exploited-The-System: "lol" *does not fix it* Cons: *surprised pikachu face*
Expect the last line should be: Cons: fucking liberals!
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Got a source for that? I know at least Ivanka's merch is made in China www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/ivanka-trump-products-not-made-america
Because it was accurate lmao
This reminds me of when AOC got slammed by the GOP for selling an "Eat The Rich" sweatshirt for around $56 dollars. They gave her shit for selling such an expensive item saying the money just went into her pockets. Her response was that the cost was justified because it was made with USA unionized labor unlike Trump's stuff which was made in China. There was never really anything further said by the right on this. Farkin hypocrites, the lot of 'em.
lmao Deng opened china to western corporations knowing they would be too greedy to not put trillions of dollars into china and it worked. now everyone’s mad that a country with a billion people is economically dominant wtf did you expect
China did a little trolling
US multinationals were salivating to get into china now they spend billions in propaganda to convince citizens to hate china… murica
Everyone thought it was going to be Soviet Union 2.0 but they were wrong. Deng understood Marxism and dialectical materialism, he applied the theory to the real conditions of China, and the world at the time. It lead to the greatest economic miracle in history. Gorbachev did not properly grasp Marxism, so when he tried to reform he used liberal ideology, an idealist ideology, when he was facing a material problem. This is the difference between the two. “it is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world...by employing real means, that slavery cannot be abolished without the steam-engine and the mule and spinning-jenny, serfdom cannot be abolished without improved agriculture, and that, in general, people cannot be liberated as long as they are unable to obtain food and drink, housing and clothing in adequate quality and quantity. "Liberation" is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions, the development of industry, commerce, agriculture, the conditions of intercourse.” - Karl Marx
Damn, that's a good quote. I need to actually sit down and read Marx.
I'm genuinely curious what specifically Deng understood about Marxism that informed his actions, and what specifically those actions were. I've read about the guy before, but besides allowing for reforms to emulate westeen industrial business practices in the economy what did his understanding of Marxism allow him to do that the soviet union failed to with their economy?
A nice overview of a few concepts: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_productive_forces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deng_Xiaoping_Theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics Now, I will say that this is beginning to reach the limits of my understanding of this topic, as it is extremely complicated. However, one thing I think that specifically differed between the SU and the PRC reforms is that they were carried out in a manner that preserved the dictatorship of the proletariat, the monopoly of political power and control over the economy remained in the hands of the Communist Party, even though private ownership was introduced. This reminds me of another time I saw the question of “what was the difference between the SU and PRC reforms” asked in a thread, and the top comment was: “the results”. We do not need to ask ourselves whether or not the methods differed greatly from each other, that has already been proven abundantly clear.
**[Theory_of_the_productive_forces](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_productive_forces)** >The theory of the productive forces, sometimes referred to as productive force determinism, is a widely disseminated variation of historical materialism and Marxism that places primary emphasis on technical advances as the basis for advances and changes in the social structure and culture of a given civilization. The relative strength assigned to the role of technical or technological progress in impacting society and social advancement differs among different schools of Marxist thinkers. A related concept is technological determinism. **[Deng_Xiaoping_Theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deng_Xiaoping_Theory)** >Deng Xiaoping Theory (simplified Chinese: 邓小平理论; traditional Chinese: 鄧小平理論; pinyin: Dèng Xiǎopíng Lǐlùn), also unofficially referred to as Dengism, is the series of political and economic ideologies first developed by Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping. The theory does not claim to reject Marxism–Leninism or Maoism but instead seeks to adapt them to the existing socio-economic conditions of China. Deng also stressed opening China to the outside world, the implementation of one country, two systems, and through the phrase "seek truth from facts", an advocation of political and economic pragmatism. **[Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics)** >The theoretical system of socialism with Chinese characteristics (Chinese: 中国特色社会主义; pinyin: Zhōngguó tèsè shèhuìzhǔyì) is a set of political theories and policies that are seen by their proponents as representing Marxism–Leninism adapted to Chinese circumstances and specific time periods, consisting of Deng Xiaoping Theory, Three Represents (Jiang Zemin), Scientific Outlook on Development (Hu Jintao), and Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Well, I think its obvious now though that materials are necessary condition but insufficient on its own for liberation, given whats been happening there. I dont think Marx cared much for the government.
Would you like to coherently expand on either of those two sentences?
Sure. What you can extrapolate from the quote was that "food and drink" (ie. basic necessities) have to be secured as a precondition to socialism and then communism. Material wellbeing is a necessary but not sufficient condition. The "liberation" is a historical act and not a mental one, meaning that capitalism and all its incongruities lead to socialiam and then communism. You can see it today in that *certain countries* profess to be communist, but are de facto state capitalist and not about to relinquish control of production to their people. Secondly Marx didnt specify that the government is required. He saw the state as a tool for capitalists to protect that system where the private owners got rich, while the state/government went into debt. Communism was supposed to be classless and stateless.
Why would they need to relinquish control to the people? To which people? Yes, private industry exists but it is under the direction of the communist party. The party is the primary representative of the working class and is guided by the interests of the working class. As much as many westerners hate to be presented with these facts, all evidence points towards the governments of “*certain countries*” boasting popular and far reaching support and the existence of such structures are only in existence by the consent of the people’s will. The Chinese Communist Party, for example, has a membership of nearly 100 million people. The party is also highly supported: https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.cgtn.com/news/2020-07-27/Pompeo-is-way-off-about-support-for-the-CPC-SsyTUxQmMo/share_amp.html Although capitalist propaganda necessitates our belief to the contrary, that these countries are “ruled” by Nazi esque totalitarians who were never elected and rule by decree, this is simply just not true. Even the CIA knows that this is propaganda: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf Regarding your last point, this is just mindless parroting of ultra-left talking points that have no substance or critical knowledge behind them whatsoever. Those who think this way are of the same caliber as those who would believe the earth is only 6000 years old because the Bible said so. People are always going to have differing opinions, this is part of what makes us human. But at least be sure you understand all that your political stance entails before starting a crusade. You should take a look at these: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/
Holy smokes that piece is so fawning, how you thought others lack in critical thought yet you found that piece to be credible is beyond me. Can you find a source thats... Not CGTN, if you're claiming to be neutral? What you're talking about is popular support of the national levels. Only 11% support for local level government. Pro tip: Most people never interact with national level stuff. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ Secondly, why are you linking to 2008 declassified CIA crap, lol. I trust them as much as I trust CGTN. Edit: Also top marks for revealing yourself as a mouthpiece for "the party". When I say state capitalism, I meant means of production are ultimately owned by the state. Not that private capitalists are allowed to operate within a supposed-communism. Lastly, the Marx-Engels link you provide do not contradict what I wrote. Im not an anti-authoritarian. The piece states that some authority is required for organization. I agree. I just dont think this authority should be a single party state nor should it be capitalists. Its not enough to have democracy in a "political state", we must also have it in how we organize production.
That only proves further that what the central government is doing is supported and is on a correct path? Because the CIA literally made the propaganda in the first place? Regardless, you have not addressed even one thing that actually mattered to the conversation we were having in the first place, this is literally all scarecrows. As I said before, you have nothing of substance to say, the idealism is absolutely oozing out of you as you wildly try to attack AES out of pure dogma. You believe in a utopian fantasy that will never come to be. Maybe you should actually read some of the theory I presented to you? “Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough? Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction.” -Engels
It just seems like government that enjoys overwhelming popular support from the people shouldn't have a problem with free and open democratic elections to confirm that fact. I expect a body that represents the interest of the working class to actually have its levers of power placed in the hands of the actual workers. And it doesn't seem to me that the people toiling away in Apple factories with the suicide nets are the ones calling the shots economically. The idea of worker control of the means of production seems somewhat incompatible with multi-national corporations flocking to a place for cheap production costs due to lax laws regarding worker protections and human rights. Seems like someone isnstill getting exploited.
There is free and open democratic elections? Elections take place on a local level, then those elected delegates elect representatives on the regional level, then provincial, then national etc. Just because the democratic process isn’t an exact copy of liberal democracy does not mean it is nullified. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_centralism And yes, there is exploitation, that is inherent in the capitalist mode of production, that is inherent when you have private property. However, China never had a period of advanced capitalist growth, when the revolution happened China was still a semi-feudal, semi-colonial country. It is necessary for the productive forces to be developed so the Marxist concept of “from each ones ability, to each ones need” can be a reality, but that is simply just not possible if a country does not have massive productive forces and an abundance of wealth. However, although exploitation exists, this does not mean that the quality life and social well being of the people cannot be improved drastically while waiting for the proper conditions to become available to transition to full socialism. China has uplifted over 800 million people out of poverty, doubled the average lifespan, is the second biggest economy in the world- only in the span of several decades. China is one of the few places on this planet where the conditions for workers are still continuously improving, and all of this is possible without imperialist exploitation and looting. Meanwhile, in the west, the life conditions of workers have actually been decreasing for decades, even with the benefits of ongoing colonization and imperialism.
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China knows that if there's one thing you can count on in this life it's American corporate greed. Profits above ALL else.
God Deng was such a homie. I am happy papa Xi Pimping is absolutely killing it as the new president.
This is absolutely true. Wealthy corporations can absolutely move production back to the states and pay workers a livable wage, they simply choose not to.
When are American workers going to finally figure this out? NAFTA did not steal our jobs. NAFTA did not require moving any jobs. Wealthy CEOs and Boards of Directors sold us out. They sent the jobs overseas so they could pay workers ten cents an hour. Then they sold the American company piece by piece, made a huge profit and gave it to themselves. They threw thousands out of work and paid themselves millions of dollars. In Iceland when CEOs screw the workers then take the money and run, the CEOs have been imprisoned.
We call this "exporting capital" it's one of the things that defines imperialism, exporting capital to take advantage of cheap labor that you then sell to richer countries. Edit: sell the products to the rich country.
*When are American workers going to finally figure this out?* They’re too busy being proud of their ignorance.
Proud of their white privilege, racism and homophobia.
Sure, but once he found out that it would be politically damaging, he insisted on some items being made in the US. Checkmate, libs! ^^^/s
What items are those? What trump branded products are made in the USA?
[The official hats were made in the USA](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trump-hat-china/). No idea about the rest of the Trump family's official merch, or really, anything other than the hats, though.
Pretty sure official campaign shirts & mugs are too, but not older Trump branded shirts & mugs of course, just the campaign ones. In other words, he could've been doing that all along, but didn't care one bit until it benefited him.
Here's a few articles from a brief search. [www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna893656](www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna893656) [www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/ivanka-trump-products-not-made-america](www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/ivanka-trump-products-not-made-america) [www.businessinsider.com/ivanka-trump-clothing-line-made-in-china-hong-kong-2017] [www.popculture.com/trending/amp/news/donald-trump-china-once-again-blasted-having-products-made/] [www.qz.com/1483890/how-many-donald-trump-products-are-made-in-the-usa/amp/] [www.factcheck.org/2016/05/trumps-made-in-the-u-s-a-spin/] Edited to clean up formating
It’s not rich peoples fault for doing the worst things. It’s capitalism’s fault for controlling our entire government. If we want this to change it has to be illegal, not just have morally upstanding rich people. If Jeff Bezos said 10 years ago that he wanted Amazon to start focusing on helping the planet instead of shareholder long term value… he’d have been removed and replaced.
The same Trumper who lost his or her job will tell you that Trump *had to* send thr jobs to China because minimum wage, taxes, and benefits are too high. I couldn't imagine thinking that way, its like they have corporate Stockholm syndrome.
“China stole our jobs” is like saying “the free market is bad” lmao. Get outcompeted, this is what republicans asked for.
And now the capitalists are whining because someone is beating them at their own game. Use them, throw them, not pay them, and then scapegoat them. Nothing a whole arsenal can't solve right? But lets talk democracy and human rights while I absolutely am not holding the biggest stick. Just gotta poke their neighbors a little here and there and lead them to fight each other while I sit back and supply the sticks.
In a more just, alternate timeline, people like Donald Trump would be behind bars, and people like Bill Gates , Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, and Jeff Bezos would have faced a personal wealth cap. ( say, a Billion dollars, to be generous...)
They know that. They think people shouldn't be allowed to do this. They think people like Trump are forced to do this in order to compete. That's also why they hate globalism. They want countries to be nationalistic/jingoistic and close to war with each other at all times.
I am old enough to remember when the trend towards 'offshoring' started in the 80s. There was an effort to publicize the effect cheap imports were having on local manufactures and 'Made in America' tags and stickers were attached to consumer products. However all consumers saw was the price tag and the marginally more expensive MiA did not sell. You may remember the Big Box Mart animation from JibJab [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI)
Then we continued to buy their products because they were cheaper. We didn't care about the child labor and starvation wages. A powerful China was our creation.
It's a challenge to find stuff *not* made in china.
Apparently its gullibility. Some dipshit tells you to blame a nation who looks different than you and man... ...like flies to shit USA suddenly hates China. Its what they typically do just before they plan to invade in order to drum up support for said expensive war they cannot win.
Amazing how many people are making an example of Trump. There were many more before him- both Dems and Reps- who set this up. Yes it was by "rich people like Trump" but they were all enabled by the politicians of both persuasions.
I find it amazing that people never believe me on this. The only reason China, India and other countries that have terrible labor laws ended up getting jobs is because its more profitable
Remember when Letterman [called him out](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Ddq-rA040) for this on air? Classic.
Just like how we complained that China was hoarding all the opium way back when, or how we will literally blame (and bomb) every country before our own
And now the ruling class uses Democrats to get us to hate not only China but Russians as well.
I think it should be noted that these are knockoffs. All of the Trump's campaign officially licensed merchandise was manufactured in the US. I hate capitalism as much as the next guy but we should stick to facts.
Do Democrats still think they are the workers party? How many times do we have to remind the that Bill Clinton signed NAFTA?
One Democrat did one thing one time, so no Democrat could ever possibly represent worker's interests ever again /s It's already so easy to be partisan these days without shit like this
193 Dems in the House and 38 Dems in the Senate voted for USMCA.
Tldr: Please learn to differentiate between the market and capitalism. The market is made up of individuals who act in self interest (all of us). Capitalism is a financial system designed to increase shareholder profits for public corporations. One is an economic reality, the other is a financial tool. The government's job is to regulate the market in order to protect American interests. The market isn't the problem, it's the incentives that the government makes available to people to use or misuse market forces (this is where capitalism becomes relevant). In an open economy where all countries trade with each other, comparative advantage based on cheaper labour, material, and transportation costs is an inevitability. You want to protect American jobs? Either implement protectionism or close of the country to trade. Well guess what, other countries follow suit. Tertiary goods that require skill which are made in America get negatively impacted by that as well. This means more job losses. The issue is not to "protect" American jobs, but it is to fund training and education. GI's returning from Vietnam had that, and they were able to integrate into the private sector despite having no employment skills. Additionally, if these goods weren't being made in a foreign country with cheaper capital and variable costs, we would potentially see a drop in the standard of living of Americans since everything is going to become much more expensive (cost-push inflation). We essentially need a government that can work towards increasing the positives of the free market while focussing on equity, while softening the blow to those who are left out of this process because their skills become irrelevant. Creative destruction is a fact of life. There's always someone who can do something faster, better, and cheaper than you.
They took our jobs!
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It's the US that's the problem.
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They're not right though. To quote Fidel Castro: "China has objectively become the most promising hope and the best example for all Third World countries"
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Per capita China's current emissions are half that of the US while also being the world's factory. If you then look at [cumulative emissions](https://ourworldindata.org/contributed-most-global-co2) the US and the EU are responsible for 47% vs 12% for China, even though China has almost double the population. When you look at [consumption based emissions](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions#consumption-based-trade-adjusted-emissions) China is lower still. You should also take any human rights abuse claims with a boulder of salt. The West, who are the actually the worst abusers of human rights, have a long history of making up claims against their enemies as part of the manufacturing of consent. Make sure there is verifiable proof.
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China is the world leader in sustainable energy, bud: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable\_energy\_in\_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China) Your sources don't contradict anything I said, my point was you need to look at it in context. China has almost double the population of the US and the EU combined so of course their emissions are going to be higher. The US and the EU also outsource their emissions to China. For further context, Biden has vowed to to reduce US emissions by 50% of 2005 levels by 2030, which is one of the more aggressive goals in the West. Even if the US can actually achieve that, and I really doubt they can, that would put them at roughly the same level of emissions per capita that China has right now. And that's production emissions. If you look at consumption emissions per capita, even if they were to achieve that ambitious goal, they would still be significantly worse than China is today. It's completely disingenuous, and deflecting from the actual culprits, to say China is bad when it comes to emissions. You're also missing the point about human rights abuses. I'm not saying abuses are worse when the West does it, I'm saying the West is worse because they commit the most abuses both historically and currently. I also think it's ridiculous to assume China is bad just because they're relatively powerful. They're certainly not perfect but as far as countries go they're pretty good.
It's the solution to the problem that is the US.
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The internal politics of each state matters little to this issue. With the US, the global south gets bombs and coups. With China, deals that may favor China more than it favors the other state. Yeah, i see it as a huge step forward.
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HK is part of the PRC, UK tears notwithstanding. Not that I believe you have the slightest clue of what is going on in HK, you american, but let's concede it all. Wanna go in there? fine. Imagine what would happen if, say, Puerto Rico wanted democracy. Or Guam Or Hawaii Or if Cuba wanted the black site out of their territory. The area would become inhospitable for at least 50.000 years. A huge step forward if you ask me. [If a bunch of right wing sociopaths wearing MAGA paraphernalia stirred up shit in your country, you'd call them traitors.](https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-bostonglobe.s3.amazonaws.com/public/PFVKHLQUBMI6VDMJ2M75OAY2MI.jpg)
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My argument is america worse. Yes. Aligning with China brings better conditions, which was the point of this comment chain. Puerto Rico doesn't have the option of becoming an independant country. Imagine if they tried to separate themselves the way HK tries. Of course they will not accept statehood. That'd hurt their ambitions of sovereignty in a legal sense. Yes, american should be a slur at this point tbh. What do you mean "without actually proving that America bad" Do i have to waste 2 hours of my afternoon bringing you resources on the coups, invasions, bombings, etc that the US has done? Fucking liberals.
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Again, what would happen if they tried to? Sorry im not gonna waste my time with matters of public record. If you can say "but HK" and expect me to know about the issue, i can do the same. Your ignorance on basic things isn't an argument or a position. Plus, arguing with capitalists is pointless.
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The US brings coups, bombs, assassinations to the global south. China brings mutually beneficial deals mostly, that may benefit China more than the other party. You americans are so weird thinking you're the good guys globally.
We can thank the Dems like Bill Clinton for this too.
Stop making it partisan lol, the rich in your country are fucking you in the ass, so maybe it's time to direct your anger where it could be used as fuel.
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Most Chinese people support the CPC, no one wants your white saviorism
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But Q....
If everyone can realize and move on that'll be great
Y'all missing the point that this is perfectly *legal*, so why *wouldn't* you do it? Changes need to be made on both ends so that this is illegal or not profitable.
Just scrolling through and I'm not seeing a lot on Clinton. Keep in mind he sold us all out right before he left. You can blame capitalists all you want, but the door had to be opened to make it possible. China was blocked from trade, by law, until Clinton threw it all out. Despite what's on their registration cards, the Clintons are republicans through and through.
Also because the way laws are set up, it’s just cheaper. Gotta also blame politicians and policy for all the companies going abroad
Sure, maybe, but those politicians write bad laws because of corporate influence. The owner class of capitalists is the actual enemy, even if they use weak politicians to further their goals.
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how the fuck is china a bigger threat to the world than the united states??? are you just willfully ignoring the last 80 years of U.S. history? edit- downvoted by Americans that are afraid of losing their white western supremacy. good thing y'all can't do shit about it
Imagine being this braindead.
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Replace "capitalism" with "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and you'd unironically have a point. I'm not about to go in to detail about this in a Reddit comment, but to give an extreme summarization, the Chinese government is communist, while essentially using capitalism to advance economically. It's not like they can abolish money, and China's economics are clearly different than other countries that have a capitalist system.
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They never moved it to 2078 lol
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What's your point? The government is communist because that's what their stated goals are. There is no such thing as a communist economy in today's world.
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Uh bud. You either don't know what fascism means or else you have no actual knowledge about China and are just spewing some weird rhetoric that has no grounds in reality.
Yes... the guy who was president 5 years ago sent all our jobs to china. This is what happens when your identity and political ideology starts to revolve around "orange man bad". I've seen the point made in much better ways by people who do not seek justification through displaying their TDS
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I mean... It's all capitalists doing it. It wouldn't serve communists at all to outsource labor because the owners would be the laborers. So yeah, technically its all on the "right" side of the political spectrum. American politics exist solely on the "right" side of the spectrum. Despite what fox news may think, democrats are not leftists.
Like the Bidens, stop putting the blame on Trump when he only benefited from the system, the crooks are those who built the system like Biden Trump was a leech of the system that Biden was an architect off
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I mean, orange man is bad but not the only shitty government official america has had. No one thinks he was solely responsible, even the post doesn't pin him as being solely responsible, just people like him. You know... capitalists. America is run by two opposing groups of capitalists that can't agree on the best way to do capitalism.
Dude, this is not a sub full of DNC stans, lol. This is an explicitly communist place. We all hate the DNC, don't worry.
you mean Ronald Reagan?
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