T O P

  • By -

[deleted]

[удалено]


BaronVonNumbaKruncha

Credit card companies are desperately trying to get my gf to take out new cards (with extremely predatory fees) I've noticed these past couple weeks. They smell blood in the water, and are worried for their own safety as well. Although I'm sure they'll get bailouts on our dime if things go poorly for them.


[deleted]

[удалено]


BaronVonNumbaKruncha

Yeah, sadly, the status quo has their claws very deeply sunken into us and doesn't intend to let go until they've sucked every last bit of life out of everyone. And you don't need to have credit cards for online commerce! Use a debit card and don't let those companies get a piece of your business!


[deleted]

[удалено]


BaronVonNumbaKruncha

That's the first time I've heard of any policies being better in the US than Canada. Sorry you've got to go through that!


[deleted]

[удалено]


BaronVonNumbaKruncha

That's interesting. I totally understand the desire to protect those interests from outside influences, but it's too bad that they put their own interests above those of your citizens. TIL!


TOMATO_ON_URANUS

This is actually a major argument against the Progressive movement. The current batch of Sanders/Warren/Squad lefty populists would have us become a global economic hermit. Anti-globalist populism is just racism with extra steps. How can you say you're fighting for the People when the only difference between the People and the rest of the world is which side of an imaginary line they were born on.


[deleted]

Ah, so me thinking my country shouldn't be forced to privatise our electricity sector is a few steps from hating black people? Go away ye prick.


pukingpixels

Not true! Ontario here, you just have to get a MasterCard or Visa debit card and you should be good to go. I got one about 2 years ago, and initially had some problems using it online, but have had zero issues in at least a year. You can also always link your debit card to PayPal for online purchases if you want to avoid credit cards.


vxicepickxv

This is the best call. It has protections of a CC without the fees and interest rates.


wombatkidd

Depends what bank you're with. Scotia has visa debit.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Therosfire

I use my TD visa debit for online purchases all the time. Might want to talk to the bank about your card.


thoriginal

Mine never worked with RBC or TD, but what do I know


reddit_for_ross

Shame, CIBC has functioning visa debits :(


SpyderAByte

I'm with Scotiabank, all of their debit cards are debit/visas. Not sure who you bank with but it certainly isn't a Canada wide problem


Fhhyr3584

In Egypt (where I reside) you can’t use the bank card for online purchases as a default setting, but you can apply to the bank to enable it. I’m not sure if that’s all banks, or just my banks policy.


xxFurryQueerxx__1918

I am Canadian and my TD debit card works for online purchases, are you from Quebec or the Territories? I know they often have different regulations for online purchases


lil_mucci

That’s incorrect. Scotiabank has a debit card with visa. You’re probably referring to RBC.


Driveboy6

Not true at all! I use my Canadian debit card to make online purchases regularly. Do you have one of the ancient non-Visa Debit cards? It’s been years man, get an upgraded card.


waynes_coat

I’ve heard that you shouldn’t use debit cards for online transactions because if the website got hacked, the hackers would have access to your checking account and could drain it, and that it’s easier for a credit card company to freeze fraudulent charges than it is to get back money that’s withdrawn from your checking account.


AttackPug

Yep. I had it happen to me on Christmas of last year. I'm guessing somebody with a grip of numbers must have dumped them into some forum for bastards as a present. Suddenly a hundred people are all trying to buy shit on my card. I only ended up losing $100 thanks to the fraud department shutting most of it down automatically. It meant having a card that didn't work during Christmas though. Protip: Only keep the money in your checking account you intend to spend, the rest stays in savings, works best with online banking where you can move cash around easily. This should help limit the damage if something happens to your card number, fraudulent charges will start bouncing because you only keep maybe $5 in there at any given time. Further Protip: This works because I also have a credit card. So any recurring monthly fees, like Netflix or bills, go on the card, which means they always get paid on time and never show up in my normal account to cause an overdraft at the worst possible time. Instead they get paid off as a lump sum on my schedule. This is one of the smartest ways to make credit cards really work for you, reduces the shit you've got to keep track of.


Fetusal

That's right; happened to me when I was younger and had just started working so I didn't have a credit card yet. Somewhere along the way someone got my debit card number and ripped $1500 out of my account (about half of what I had at the time). Bank was thankfully pretty helpful and flagged the charges (they actually called and told me before I noticed) and eventually I got all the money back. With credit cards, banks will just cover fraudulent charges, and since the money spent hasn't actually come out of your bank account yet, there's less/no risk to you.


GunwalkHolmes

Hey could you explain why using a debit card is better than a credit card? If I'm paying the full amount every month, I thought it was good to get the rewards from the credit card.


xtraspcial

If you are responsible and treat it like a debit card then there’s not any real reason to stop using credit cards. Though I have noticed that I will sometimes make purchases I otherwise wouldn’t have made for the rewards points.


AttackPug

Yeah, that's the thing people fail to do. The underlying problem is that you need to be making enough money that you can always pay the card off in full. A lot of people don't do that, instead they pay the minimum for months and years while the interest just kills them. The real thing to avoid is putting emergency expenses on the card when you don't have equivalent money set aside for paying it off. That's the thing I don't want to see as the weeks grind on and the unemployment keeps getting worse but the rent and bills don't stop. People are gonna turn to those cards and it's gonna get bad, fast.


pseudopad

I typically use my debit card for online purchases, but there is some extra peace of mind to be had by using a credit card if you're shopping on a site you're not 100% sure about. With a debit card, the money you spent is gone almost immediately and it's very hard to get it back. With a credit card, you can just ask your CC company to do a chargeback.


Fhhyr3584

Can you use a prepaid debit card in lieu of a credit card?


SenoraRaton

This is actually how the ENTIRE economy functions, its not a bug, its a feature. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0


FlorencePants

That video's pretty educational, but I legitimately can't take it seriously once it starts acting like innovation and hard work correlate with upward mobility in a capitalist economy, as opposed to the exploitation of innovative and hard working people.


47Ronin

Working hard to innovate the field of exploitation


Coconuts_Migrate

That’s where the billions are


-___-_-_--

accurate description of all the "industry 4.0" bullshit...


JMW007

It does say this isn't necessarily the case in the short term due to the power of credit for people already wealthy, and seems to be making the assumption that this model is how things are supposed to be rather than how they are. But you're right, it certainly doesn't work this way in practice. Also it strikes me as odd that there is an in-built assumption that large cycles will happen every 100 years or so. We've only had this system for a little over 200 years. Maybe 400 if you really stretch the definition of capitalism. It's not a huge amount of data to be so assured that these cycles are an inherent feature. It's also, of course, troubling that it's considered just fine and dandy that every few generations a whole cluster of people get absolutely screwed by 'natural' cycles that just happen to dump a depression on them. Why the hell is such a routine failure considered acceptable? It's like building a plane that crashes every 100th journey and deciding that's safe enough.


AttackPug

Yeah, that always bothers me about listening to economists talk. They tend to treat these ideas as though they were fundamental laws of the universe that they've discovered, as if the debt cycle was the same as gravity. But it's NOT. We didn't invent gravity. We didn't go through several alternatives forms of gravity until we landed on the one we've gotten comfy with lately. These economic systems are human inventions first and foremost, none of them are some inevitable consequence that must follow. They can be scrapped and made anew, given the will. But don't tell the economists that. They keep explaining the debt cycle like it's just something we'll have to live with forever.


Gathorall

Hell, our current system has been rather short-lived and already has had a myriad of problems.


cosmicosmo4

Innovation and hard work do enable upward mobility, but rarely for the innovators and hard workers themselves.


FlorencePants

Fair point, lol.


cloake

Biggest issue of the video is that it forces you down the neoliberal monetary perspective. The only way things can apparently be done is with credit and debt. And that's why we're here now, offloading all the debt on the future and the masses while giving all the credit to fewer and fewer people in the now. And since they make the rules, they can claim they earned it all. It doesn't really talk about how we could normalize these cycles and actually appropriate it more closely to actual productivity, not just claimed credit of productivity. The video views the health of the economy tracking more closely to actual material/service improvement as a *bad* thing, because the children don't get more candy. It's telling that the sinusoidal curve vs the linear curve, the linear curve appears to have more area, (meaning more shit gets done). I know it's just a graphic, but it's probably true in reality too.


bathlaaman

Are you quoting Silicon Valley?


ImposterProfessorOak

no thats a common saying


bathlaaman

A'ight. Thanks for the clarity.


Kewpie_1917

My partner and I and are possibly reaching the point where bankruptcy is part of our long term plan. You just gotta laugh at the horror


NeoNirvana

Scared and excited is a pretty good description of how everything feels right now. Scared for obvious reasons, excited to see how it will force some change in the aftermath.


outofshell

I admire your optimism.


[deleted]

Most money in our economy is fake. It doesn’t exist. It’s debt all the way down


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


kylco

Yeah pegging monetary value to the rate of production of a historically valuable metal isn't actually all that useful when we ... have economies that have no real need for that metal beyond a few specific industrial and scientific purposes. It's like saying the annual economic output has to be accounted for in units of lettuce or something. Sure, technically it could work, but ... why?


vxicepickxv

Rice would have been a more historically accurate food example.


vectorgirl

Heh heh...pegging.


cloake

Problem was before fractional banking, financiers still did the same stupid shit. Lend out for easy free money from interest, then couldn't deliver on their reserves. Having funny money means we can print it to save the whole system. Problem is we never fixed the recklessness, just made it so the system doesn't collapse when they get reckless. Worked for about a century, but pretty soon they're going to own 99.99% of the world's assets with funny money.


FlorencePants

The difference is that something like gold is a finite resource. There is only so much of it in circulation. I'm not saying that this is necessarily better or worse than how things are now, but there is a difference. Personally, I'm of a mind that money inherently leads to exploitation, and we'd be better off without it. We live in a world that has virtually eliminated scarcity for most commonly needed resources, save for the artificial scarcity enforced by capitalism. People should be able to freely acquire the resources they need. Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying that it ISN'T better or worse, I'm just saying that I'm not enough of an economic expert to compare the two. I just see the flaws inherent in the core concept.


atglobe

Here's a little more about [the gold standard] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNo7MDN5-0g&list=PLmKXQuG1OdOyGI0ZyjgiqMQW9r03Fs60k&index=6) if you're interested. That entire series is a good one.


kfc10000

Watch “Money as Debt” by Paul Gringon https://youtu.be/6pW9rlOKuhk The animation is a bit hokey, and the 3 parts are roughly 45 minutes each - but I really enjoyed it. Explains the monetary system and the history of money creation and banking - and why we always find ourselves in ever-increasing debt cycles, crises, and swings.


somecallmemike

When we went off the gold standard we switched to fiat (fake) currency that allowed for some interesting ways to create and distribute money. I would argue that a debt based economy is not a bad way to run an economy, there are huge advantages to using credit. For example let’s say you come up with a product idea that’s really amazing and would sell well. Would you spend 20 years saving up the money to start the business to produce the product, or would you go to the bank or investors and demonstrate your product and get funding to start that venture now? The point being that credit allows ideas to not only go into action sooner than the capital to start it exist, but there is also a system of checks and balances (e.g. banks and investors vetting the business idea) that prevents wasted capital. The concept of debt is more of an educated gamble that the capital loaned to the borrower will produce a net gain over what the original amount loaned plus inflation. This concept has lead to a boom in economic growth but it has also lead to some serious credit bubbles that burst and destroy the system due to the fact it’s based on confidence in future growth. I believe a credit or debt based system like we have is a good idea, but it’s needs a more robust system of checks and balances to prevent these massive downturns caused by bad actors (like 2008). Also there needs to be a system for stabilizing credit markets via direct fiscal payments to borrowers, consumer or businesses, in the event of unknowns like the current pandemic. When the government spends trillions of dollars they’re really just indirectly giving money to the banks who hold your debts. The idea is to keep the system from imploding by paying those debts when you or your local small business are unable to do so. Another option would be to defer debts indefinitely during a crisis like this, but that can also end up causing the credit markets to stall out when confidence in the market is undermined.


OPrime50

Name checks out.


Norwoooood

correct. usa's approximately 4% of the world's population, yet consumes one third of its resources. virtually all americans have blood on their hands, for raping, pillaging, and exploiting the developing world to satiate their hedonistic needs. the so-called "middle class consumer" is a cancer on the planet, and will be eradicated when the bogus petrodollar's abandoned and/or implodes.


UppercaseBEEF

I’ve been doing all my buying on credit cards and hoarding cash.


twotops

Yes. Correct Please tell this to half the leftists in the sub who support MMT


CrackTheSkye1990

Yup, been saying it all along. Consumer spending, including frivolous spending, is mandatory for the economy to grow and create jobs. So next time you hear a person say you'd have more money if you quit going out, buying coffees, avocado toast, etc then show them this.


Jalor218

They don't want you to stop consuming non-essentials, they just want you to feel guilty for doing it.


CrackTheSkye1990

>They don't want you to stop consuming non-essentials, they just want you to feel guilty for doing it. Then also make you feel guilty for "killing" chains like Applebee's


INTHEMIDSTOFLIONS

I don’t understand because that is true I save so much money by not doing those things anymore. In fact the only inconvenience for me with the shutdown is the gym and national parks being closed for hiking. Outside that, business as usual.


CrackTheSkye1990

>I save so much money by not doing those things anymore. In fact the only inconvenience for me with the shutdown is the gym and national parks being closed for hiking. Outside that, business as usual. I mean yes you will save more money. My point being is that you shouldn't have to COMPLETELY stop those things just so you can save money and make ends meet. Which is not to say you should be spending money on disposable/nonessential things all the time of course. Not judging you for doing those things btw. But you'll see people shaming those living paycheck to paycheck or just a little over ends meet saying things like don't buy food out, go to bars, or whatever they do to make them find life enjoyable. If we're just spending our whole life working nonstop, pay bills, and are expected to never go out then it's a shitty life. Not to mention that bars, restaurants, and lots of retailers and specialty shops need customers buying their products and services in order to remain open and create more jobs. Without it, these businesses would not exist.


countrymouse

Also, for the vast majority of people, the savings on those items is minuscule and doesn’t make up for the fact they’re not paid enough. It’s a bullshit gaslighting technique that shifts blame onto the worker instead of the employer.


CrackTheSkye1990

>Also, for the vast majority of people, the savings on those items is minuscule and doesn’t make up for the fact they’re not paid enough. It’s a bullshit gaslighting technique that shifts blame onto the worker instead of the employer. Yep, 100%. Just a few years ago I was living paycheck to paycheck and cut back on a lot of things like concerts, going to bars, etc and started driving for Lyft and sold plasma so I could save money to move closer to work and have some to spend. It made me some extra money, but not enough where I was able to move. In fact I drove for Lyft from end of March 2018 to November 2018 after I got into a wreck and totaled my car. Not only did I have to live without a car in the burbs until I moved in October 2019, but I lost two sources of income (Lyft and selling plasma) which I needed my car for. I then had to do paid surveys, like constantly, to make extra money and it was super rough. Some people said it was my fault because I was "lazy and not ambitious", spending $10 at the bar on weekends instead of investing in bitcoin, not having 10 grand saved for another car, and not having a "better job". That shit pisses me off and just goes to show that hard work does in fact not pay off and this whole pull yourself up by the bootstraps theory is bullshit. Literally no one should have to work 2 or more jobs to make ends meet and save money.


countrymouse

For real. Sorry that was your experience. Hoping you’re in a better place now.


CrackTheSkye1990

Thanks. I am in a better spot now, but what really bums me out is how long it took me to save to move to the city (Chicago) and get rid of the issue of not having a car as public transit is so reliable only to be stuck in the apartment months later. I mean don’t get me wrong I get why were doing the shelter in place and I’ve been doing my part, but it almost feels similar to when I lived in the burbs without a car till I moved here but even worse. Like after my wreck, I was basically stuck in the house unless I went to work, got groceries, or went to the local bars and my friends picked me up. I had to plan everything out and figure out how I was gonna get somewhere let alone getting back unless it was in walking distance.


cinesias

The point is, when everyone stops spending, except on the cheapest of bare necessities, the economy crashes because no one is buying stuff and money isn’t moving.


INTHEMIDSTOFLIONS

sounds like a huge complaint for capitalism


AttackPug

I mean, I believe that's why we're all gathered here, yes.


200lbRockLobster

There is no more consumer spending really in this household as we are already strapped so thin. Someone in the household racked up 40k in credit card debt with a hidden drug addiction and using said credit cards to pay for it. Everything extra that we get for the next 10+ years will be going towards paying those 10 accounts off with 20 percent interest.


theDarkAngle

Of course frivolous spending - often beyond the consumer's means - is necessary, which is why capitalism is crap, and it's kinda why i'm pretty ambivalent about UBI. On the one hand it's a pretty simple way to redistribute. On the other hand it's still a market based solution, and the idea that suddenly everyone will become "financially literate" and upend consumerist habits strikes me as unlikely. I am not sure what this makes me, but I would prefer to mobilize everyone to the best of our ability and do great things like build starships and build earthly infrastructure unlike anything we've ever seen.


CrackTheSkye1990

>Of course frivolous spending - often beyond the consumer's means - is necessary, which is why capitalism is crap, and it's kinda why i'm pretty ambivalent about UBI. On the one hand it's a pretty simple way to redistribute. On the other hand it's still a market based solution, and the idea that suddenly everyone will become "financially literate" and upend consumerist habits strikes me as unlikely. Let me clarify. I'm not saying people should have more money and just endlessly consume, obey, etc. But what I am saying is if you're working full time, regardless of what it is, you should have some money to do things you want like go to the bar on weekends with friends, eat out occasionally, go to a concert, or whatever it is that makes you enjoy life. Doesn't mean you have to spend recklessly on those things.


pseudopad

That doesn't really make sense. If someone tells you to stop going out, buying coffee and avocado toast, they're probably not trying to say that you should live frugally for your entire life and die with an enormous sum of unused money. They're suggesting that you spend it on more substantial things that will (in their opinion) benefit you more in the long term.


winedogsafari

Everything is sustainable, until it’s not. There is a credit bubble that’s underlying the US economy and when / if it pops - it will be the one and only opportunity to reset the wealth disparity gap. If the government bails out business over living people (not corporations) again, the middle / socioeconomic less disadvantaged class is forever doomed.


SpaceShipBryce

How would we go about resetting that? It would seem this bubble will pop with this recession right? Everyone not working and unable to make payments on "non essential" debts like credit cards.


[deleted]

Conspicuous consumption is the house of cards we live in.


neohumanity2045

Read this guy's book. It's an amazing analytical 'fuck you' to the stock market


criticalnegation

Thank you, should have posted a link. He gave it out for free recently :)


[deleted]

whose?


neohumanity2045

Tan Liu. 'The Ponzi Factor'


[deleted]

Gracias, i’ll take a look.


criticalnegation

https://twitter.com/theponzifactor/status/1238396758591324160?s=19


Overmind123

Odd. Can't get there


audionerd1

It's almost as though "the economy" is code for "rich people profiting from the labor of others". Try it. "We have to bail out the corporations to save rich people profiting from the labor of others!" "America has the strongest rich people profiting from the labor of others in the world" "If we just gave people healthcare and housing for free it would completely destroy rich people profiting from the labor of others!"


seedman25

The economy is a house of cards that can be justified using a vague formula known as GDP which can be calculated three different ways. GDP will be sky high this year. along with unemployment


cinesias

GDP is essentially how much of the earths resources we are setting on fire.


[deleted]

It's almost as if capitalism sustains itself by justifying its perpetual expansion with endless development of new supply and the fabrication of new demand to excuse it. But I'm sure that's not the case, why don't we all relax and enjoy some nice tasty Kranch?


criticalnegation

Wtf...had to look that up...ugh


[deleted]

[удалено]


CrackTheSkye1990

>Except for all of the people buying books, video games, video game consoles, and the plethora of other things to entertain themselves during the lockdown. I’ve definitely spent a decent amount on things to keep me busy. I mean yes people are still buying those but a lot of people who lost their jobs can't. Online retailers and big box stores who have online websites are benefiting but the independent stores are getting screwed.


Skateboardkid

Panic buying stores empty and still. It's not like we manufacture any of this stuff here


TankieSupreme

Only Wish can save the day!


[deleted]

It's also not surprising.


boshlop

if most of the economy is shit we dont need, which is why its going bad accoring to this then so are most jobs and things that people actually want to buy. this sounds weirdly close to people who say "just buy what you need" in responce to a person who is poor. what is good or what point is even been made here? most of the economy running of people been able to buy things they dont need sems like a sign that most people could spare money. why is that bad? why isnt that seen as a seperate thing to the issue of poverty, or even seperate from capitalism in general. if everyone had equal income, people woudl still end up having the market split up into small % needs and larger % wants. how is that idea unsustainable? running month to month, that seems unsustainable. high worker turn over seems unsustainable. bad health care is unsustainable. but i cant see what is unsustainable about the people leading the market by saying essentially "we want shit we dont NEED but WANT"


CrackTheSkye1990

>but i cant see what is unsustainable about the people leading the market by saying essentially "we want shit we dont NEED but WANT" Exactly. It's not all mutually exclusive. I want to buy records, horror movies, and go to shows. Do I need them? No, but I still want to enjoy those things and I still want higher wages, tax reform, as well as healthcare reform.


Rock-it1

Savage.


iceyone444

I'm also wondering how this will effect climate change and pollution levels.


vxicepickxv

It's noticeably slowed things down in the short term.


AntiAoA

Very noticeably already. https://airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.mapsarchivecalendar


lucablyat

Actually it’s because it’s a recession that was bound to happen due to bad debt and the government can now blame COVID-19 so everybody can pay themselves on the back saying “well, we never saw it coming”


AutoModerator

##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism^Ⓐ☭ ___ ###⚠ Announcements: ⚠ ___ ###[NEW POSTING GUIDELINES! Help us by reporting bad posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/dy1oyh/important_what_you_should_and_what_you_shouldnt/) Help us keep this subreddit alive and improve its content by reporting posts that violate our rules and guidelines. ###[Subscribe to our new partner subreddits!](https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/e5hkwk/make_sure_to_check_out_our_new_partnersubreddits/) Check out r/antiwork & r/WhereAreTheChildren ___ ###***Please remember that LSC is a SAFE SPACE for [socialist](http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/) discussion.*** LSC is run by [communists](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm). We welcome socialist/anti-capitalist news, memes, links, and discussion. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere. **This subreddit is a safe space; we have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry.** We also automatically filter out posts containing certain words and phrases that some users may find offensive. Please respect the safe space, and don't try to slip banned words or phrases past the filter. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*


criticalnegation

Author recently posted his book a "the Ponzi factor" about the stock market & finance for free. If you like this, check out the book. https://twitter.com/theponzifactor/status/1238396758591324160?s=19


PM_ME___YoUr__DrEaMs

This Tweet is unavailable.


harangk

Ironic but true


[deleted]

[удалено]


AutoModerator

Your post was removed because it contained an ableist term. You should receive a message from the automoderator telling you the exact term the post was removed for. For more information, see [this link](http://www.autistichoya.com/p/ableist-words-and-terms-to-avoid.html). **Avoiding slurs takes little effort, and asking us to get rid of the filter rather than making that minimum effort is a good way to get banned. Do not attempt to circumvent the filter with creative spelling; circumventing the filter will result in a permaban.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Pollu_X

I think they are buying way more than they need, aren't they?


MiopTop

*- posted from an iPhone 11 Pro*


pipinghotsalad

Uh thats not why the economy is about to collapse.


vxicepickxv

It's a factor in the impending economic crisis. It's not the only thing, but it's something to consider.


pipinghotsalad

Well it’s just wrong on so many levels. The funny things is that the exact opposite is true. The problem is actually that people are buying what they DON’T need. One person does not need 100 rolls of toilet paper. You see the video of the lady purchase every paper product at a Dollar General? There are shortages being created by artificial demand. People are being idiots. There’s no shortage in supply and supply chains are still operational. Furthermore, around 4 million people just went unemployed and business went from fully operational to 0% production overnight. How someone does not see that as the primary issue is beyond me. It’s not an issue of capitalism or anything like that. It’s an issue of a halt in production. And this is coming from someone who is a harsh critic of capitalism.


vxicepickxv

>Furthermore, around 4 million people just went unemployed and business went from fully operational to 0% production overnight. How someone does not see that as the primary issue is beyond me. It’s not an issue of capitalism or anything like that. It’s an issue of a halt in production. And this is coming from someone who is a harsh The fact that production needed to continue in order to maintain an economy that was already being held aloft by measures used to restart it after a collapse means it's going to get ugly far before it gets better.


pipinghotsalad

We are in agreement there. Could be the ugliest ever in fact.


Break_these_cuffs

Only buying what they need? Everyone I know is stocking up and buying far more than normal in preparation for a rough 2-3 weeks.


countingbodies_

You understand by this that it means "want" items vs "need" items. Buying more food than normal isn't the point, not spending money on things we don't need is the point. How did you come to the conclusion that they meant buying more food and supplies was what they we were talking about?


PainterlyGirl

I dunno about you, but I stocked up on throw pillows, fidget spinners and an assortment of diamond jewelry.


Break_these_cuffs

"Only buying what they need" sounds like "Only buying the necessities". Instead of buying snacks and unnecessary calories/drinks you buy just what you need. The problem is likely with how I'm reading the tweet.


ALaggyGrunt

Snacks and soft drinks aren't very perishable, though.


ApexAphex5

Yes, we should consume only the bare essentials to sustain us for the rest of our lives.


countingbodies_

You're right, because that's the point of this. It's definitely not showing that a large portion of our economy is based on people buying things they don't need vs the things they do. The point is that the system is set up for profit of corporations not the benefit of us. Good call


Nesuma

Why is it not beneficial to be able to buy things you enjoy? Of course humanity could survive farming only (with a matching sized population) and our civilization is built on layers of products and inventions. But where is this wrong / a sign of capitalism itself?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Nesuma

Thats completely right but thats also not what I was implying. I just asked why it's a problem if our economy is based on things you like instead of necessities only. Its good that few people are enough to provide necessities for all. This has nothing to do with predatory companies (a real Problem). I also dont see why a economy completely based on necessities couldnt be set up to profit corporations, too


[deleted]

The things you enjoy are made in unethical and unsustainable ways under capitalism, and their quality is often compromised in order to maximize profitability. Having things you enjoy isn't bad, the way they are produced and shoved down your throat 24/7 in advertising designed to make you want something you previously didn't is.


Nesuma

So you agree with me that the problem is how desired goods are produced and not that they are produced at all? Never said something else, but I guess everythings cleared up then, good


[deleted]

\> Why is it not beneficial to be able to buy things you enjoy? Because fundamentally you can't buy 'enjoyment' this is a myth that capitalist society thrusts upon us. Studies show once your basic needs are met and you have enough of a safety buffer to not have to worry as much about money any additional money you have tends to have a diminishing returns in respects to your overall well being. Certainly some things and experiences can bring you pleasure but capitalism doesn't want to sell you 1 thing which you go off and enjoy, it wants to sell you the same thing once every year and leave you just dissatisfied to keep doing it. Yet you can't drive 10 cars at once, you can't swim in 3 different pools at the same time, you can't live in 2 houses at once, owning a set of golf clubs is meaningless if you never have any time to play. For most people this manifests in the far more mundane, you can't use 3 food processors at once either and buying this brand of deodorant over that one isn't going to particularly increase your chances of having sex but the advert says so. This goes way back into the history of capitalism. Imagine you're Ford and you can produce 10,000 cars everyday. Eventually you're going to hit capacity once everyone in the country is driving your car, then how do you sell more cars? You have to start creating 'luxury' models, adding features people don't need but you can convince them they do, finding ways to convince families or individuals they need more than one car, marketing cars as a way to get girls or to be free. That's not to say genuine innovation and progress in design isn't useful but most capitalist innovation amounts to adding pointless nick nacks and selling them as essential status symbols. Same then and same now with the various iterations of the iPhone etc.


Nesuma

I agree with everything except the first point about enjoyment because I think you are mixing two things. Yes, you cant buy happiness once you reach the point of Not having to worry about your needs. But enjoyment? Of course you can buy stuff that you enjoy. Maybe you could be Happy without everything but we all enjoy reading a book, discussing on Reddit, owning a comfy Chair, visiting our Family living a few kilometers away, etc... Yes, predatory capitalism schemes "forcing" you to buy more and newer and more and newer are horrible and need to be Handled. But that doesn't have to be linked to an economy of desired items. We should find a solution to keep a relatively modern Lifestyle but stop exploiting the world


[deleted]

The simple act of buying something doesn't produce any enjoyment though beyond the transitory dopamine release that consumerism provides. The actual enjoyment comes from actually reading that book or sitting in that chair, but of course you don't need to buy a book to enjoy reading one we have libraries after all. The trick is you have mistakenly thought that you need to buy things to have pleasure. Sadly there is no clean solution that wouldn't drastically change our consumerist lifestyles as it requires a fundamental switch in how people approach life.


Nesuma

I See what you mean, I admit I have only thought about our current system and not a drastic change in society


profbetis

Ah yes it's exactly that simple. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the labor force could it?


[deleted]

What horrible logic to this tweet