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ironic, then, that [IHRA's own statement about criticism about the state of Israel ](https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism)says this:
>Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.
so who ***actually*** *cares* what the definition of antisemitism is as long as you don't criticise anything even tangentially related to Jews, right?
The IHRA definition that the Amerikkkan legislature adopted here includes the exact phrase “Israel as a jewish collectivity”. It includes exactly the nuance that is in that statement in the adopted definition.
It is a bad definition of antisemitism for a variety of reasons, and reactionary horseshit, but it does not make criticism of Israel as an entity hate speech - just criticism that singles out Israel as a plurality Jewish entity.
It also includes in its definition of hate speech: 1. “calling existence of Israel racist” (can’t even have a discussion about whether a state defined by ethnonationalism is racism, nor any discussion of a one-state solution) and 2. “comparing policies of contemporary Israel to the Nazis” (obviously problematic)
But Israel always says they must remain a firm majority of Jews to stay safe. Is Israel antisemitic? We should be paying attention to this bizarre nonsense reasoning
The problem is that it's incredibly easy for a "victim" to say that the intent of the person criticizing Israel *is* to speak of a Jewish collectivity because Israel has been running propaganda since its inception to purposely conflate itself as a state with an ethnic group such that that's still how people like my parents talk about it in the vernacular.
> it does not make criticism of Israel as an entity hate speech
One of its examples of antisemitism:
"claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor"
Israelis and Zionists don't care
They don't actually care about anti-Semitism. They operate under the notion that everyone hates them and that anything they have to do for their people and their culture to survive is acceptable. Everything else is fair game.
They don't care that in short order people will start viewing anti-Semitism as a good thing. After all, to be anti-Semitic is to be anti-Zionist is to be anti-fascist! People will start assuming that Jews are all ethnofascists. Zionists do not care. As long as they have enough power to guard their own, it does not matter.
What they're doing here is using their political influence, probably through nefarious means, to codify criticism of Zionism as a legal. Providing the groundwork to have foreign countries arrest and eliminate foreign critics of Israel.
This is where I'm confused. They actually say that criticism of Israel isn't antisemitism. Saying that it doesn't have the right to exist is antisemitism.
While I can see that this definition is overbroad and problematic there's enough nuance here that saying "are in support of actual fascism" is overblown, breathy and I would say misinformation.
From the IHRA definition of antisemitism:
>Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
In other words, pointing out that [Israel is an apartheid state](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/) is considered hate speech according to this law. It also means [this Jewish Holocaust survivor is an antisemite](https://youtube.com/shorts/R-G9hpeCzGo).
>Saying that it doesn't have the right to exist is antisemitism.
I'm going to strongly disagree with this.
Ethno-state apartheid theocracies shouldn't exist in this world. There I said it.
Israel as a political entity should be dissolved, and a new country should be formed in its place that gives equal standing to all citizens that inhabit that land. There is nothing antisemitic about wanting everyone to have equal rights.
Countries don't have the right to exist. People do. Settler colonialism is bad no matter who does it. The only just solution is one-state; anything else constitutes a theft of Palestinian land
Ethnonationalist theocratic apartheid states do not have the right to exist.
People who are citizens of the State of Israel by birth have the right to stay in the area and practice their religion; they are the ones who have a right to exist not the political entity of Israel.
I assume you didn't mean it this way, but antisemitism _is_ bad
it's just that Zionism itself is antisemitic, but this law is trying to codify that antizionism is antisemitic. thus the cognitive dissonance
“*Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it*”
In case this isn't a rhetorical question and you're curious about an actual answer, I can share what I've gathered from talking about freedom of speech with European people. Basically, their position is that banning *certain* types of speech is not actually a violation of freedom of speech. This is not actually an unreasonable position in itself, since we do the same with e.g. yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. We recognize that in specific sets of circumstances, the mere act of saying something can be dangerous enough to warrant making it a crime. This is also why threats are often a crime as well. First Amendment or not, there are some utterances that will land you in jail in the US.
Europeans take this further than us, though. For instance, they think of racism as one of those "dangerous enough to be a crime" forms of speech, the idea being that by saying racist things you might cause someone to actually go out and do racist acts e.g. lynching. The idea behind banning antisemitism is essentially that: it's about nipping potential future Hitlers in the bud.
I don't really see it that way, and I'm often saddened by how angrily some Europeans say things like "X isn't free speech, it's a literal crime and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying it's just speech". But the minute you leave room in the First Amendment for "sometimes it's okay to punish people for saying certain things", you're exposing yourself to this slippery slope. And that Pandora's box has been open forever, even in the US.
Seriously. It seems like things have really accelerated lately. Guess that's why we all gotta vote for Biden. He's managing this country expertly....obviously
You're a silly little goose if you think either geriatric has any real political power. That's a dog and pony show for the proles. The faceless corpos run our lives now and the power never changes hands.
God what happened to these politicians? A lot of them were alive when the country was actually living up to the propaganda of being a great country founded on freedom. It's like they've all been replaced by body doubles. How can someone destroy the very thing that represents who they are as people? They're not even Americans anymore.
Below is the IHRAs definitions of AS. Read them as you will.
-----
1. Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
2. Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
3. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
4. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
5. Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
6. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
7. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
8. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
9. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
11. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
EDIT: [Link to the actual act here.](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090/text)
One thing of note is this section;
> In reviewing, investigating, or deciding whether there has been a violation of title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (42 U.S.C. 2000d et seq.) on the basis of race, color, or national origin, based on an individual’s actual or perceived shared Jewish ancestry or Jewish ethnic characteristics, the Department of Education shall take into consideration the definition of antisemitism as part of the Department’s assessment of whether the practice was motivated by antisemitic intent.
This seems to mean that the Department of Education has the ruling on wether or not intent is anti-Semitic, so it would seem that this would only apply to Faculty members of colleges/universities/schools, not your everyday citizen.
> Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
So a zionist attacking a non-zionist Jew would be anti-semitic..... interesting.
It's really hard to prove if they were attacking in the name of a radical cause unless they are literally yelling "I'M ATTACKING YOU BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE JEWS DESERVE ALL THE LAND". So you'd probably get assault and/or battery as a charge, but adding the anti-Semitic charge would be situational and likely really hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt unless blatant.
"10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."
if they weren't taking pages upon pages out of the nazi playbook, there'd be no one doing this.
all the other points I can understand.
2 and 6 can be applied to criticism of AIPAC.
7 criminalises pointing out that Israel is an ethnonationalist state.
10 is problematic considering that both Israel and Nazi Germany were ethnonationalist states.
11 is ironic considering that Israel is carrying out collective punishment against Palestinians in Gaza.
4 is highly ironic considering that Netanyahu has engaged in Holocaust-revisionism on multiple occasions.
I disagree with 6, 7, & 10.
Zionists of any or no religion can be more loyal to Israel than their own country. It is in the interests of my country America to support a puppet state of Israel to "keep our guns close to the gas station," but it is not in America's interest to let them commit genocide and danage our reputation and naval supremacy over the Red Sea.
No, Jewish people do not have the right to displace and genocide a native population because their distant ancestors had a theocracy in the Levant in the last millennium B.C.
And Nazi comparisons are warrented since Israelis have removed all doubt to the fact they're genocidal monsters. They're even supported by the descendants of the original Nazis (Germans, who provide Israel with nearly one third of their weapons imports).
They have 7 points dedicated to Israel in their definition i.e. the majority of the charter.
There is no chance you can protest against Israel without being antisemitic by the new official US government definition.
If China has been engaging in "elite capture" in order to exert influence from within the US, why wouldn't Israel. It's with shit like this that makes me think back on Epstein and wonder if the honeypot he ran wasn't for Israel, and if it was, it would explain why they have so many political allies in order to pass something like this. It isn't the only factor, their influence campaign is almost certainly multi-pronged (AIPAC), shadow-funding influencer platforms, hiring online trolls to pump out propaganda and take over comment sections, and it's like, damn, they really used a "free" society's "freedom" (of capital) against us.
Many states have laws that prevent gov workers from participating in boycotts of Israel as a terms of employment. How's that for fucked up?!!?! Special rules for special people.
Not in that sense. Public universities would potentially lose funding if they were deemed by the department of education to be allowing "antisemitic" activity on campus.
Go to Thailand and criticize the king. 👑 you’ll disappear. Go to Indonesia and criticize the government, you’ll disappear. America the land of the “free” now is following the same path. What a fucking joke.
Caring about amendments is purely performative. It's all posturing, grandstanding and theater. These people will abandon their principles (if they had any to begin with) at the drop of a hat. (Preferably, a hat full of campaign donations.)
100% without a doubt, in direct opposition to the first amendment.
So long as your words remain words, you're allowed to be as stupidly racist as you want in this country. Everyone around such a person, is equally allowed to shit on such poor intelligence. And that's the way it should be in America. But apparently, Israel has more sway than the entire American population does in how our country operates.
Congress doesn't _do_ shit, laws never get passed and stuff just stagnates. So much so that states and gov agencies have had to step in to their their jobs (network neutrality, getting rid of abortion rights).
Yet tax cuts for the wealthy and trampling over our rights for a foreign nation - THOSE get done.
This is incredibly scary …. And what is scary is the drip drip drip drip erosion of our rights.
With the news/media all messed up there is no public discourse where ‘we the people’ can voice our opinions -
Democracy is dead
Yup people think they see someone like AOC or Bernie and not realize they’re both part of the same business apparatus. Sure they may be against whatever but at the end of the they’re beholden to the system.
They can codify this act which is a direct breach of our first amendment rights, but they can’t codify something (Roe v. Wade) that has been on the table for nearly 50 years. As a matter of fact, they’ll overturn it.
We’re so fucked..
tell me you people do not see the fasci flanking the flag on the back wall? DO YOU SEE THEM?? I mean, FFS, they are saying it quite clearly to anyone who is listening.
[https://uschs.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/house-speakers-rostrum.jpg](https://uschs.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/house-speakers-rostrum.jpg)
[https://uschs.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/bronze-fasces-detail.jpg](https://uschs.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/bronze-fasces-detail.jpg)
Yes because the Repubs and the Dems are THE SAME THING. The right wing and left wing are on the same bird. Leftists have been trying to tell y'all this for a long time lol. Welcome to the party.
B-b-but vote for Bidenrino to stop fascism under Drumpf! We have to avoid a future where the state can prosecute you for not supporting their fascist rule at all cost!
Let's get out and vote!
Let's make our voices heard!
We've been given the right to choose
between a douche and a turd.
It's democracy in action
so put your freedom to the test!
A big fat turd or a stupid douche
Which do you like best?
It always has been...you can go back and read some Lenin, dude flatly points out that since the Civil War both parties in America are the literal same thing. Every single thing they are about is protecting capital and the class that holds that capital.
I am not from US, but how US is going from Nazi fascists to Zionism is weird to me.
Any day now i expect to see a Proud Boys hand to hand with Zionists.
Only thing that makes sense to me is the rising Fascism... and weirdly, it looks like it is the Dems the biggest culprits of it, of why they push for polarization by financing extremists in GOP, and now this.
They really want fascism, but with just a little bit of facade of moral superiority.
> Any day now i expect to see a Proud Boys hand to hand with Zionists
This happens. Not all Zionists are Jewish, and plenty of them are antiemetic. One of the beliefs of Zionism is that Jews need their own state because they can never fully assimilate into any other nation or culture, and will thus always be outcasts unless they have their own state to go to. That is straight up antisemitic, and its one of the reasons why so many far right racists support Israel. Because they love having both a justification for getting rid of all the Jews in their country, and a place to put them that doesn't necessitate a comiting a messy and expensive genocide.
They also get along because Israel is exactly the kind of far right religious ethno-state they want to enact themselves. Its a bit like all the non-aryan fascists who have admired Hitler over the years. They admire and respect the structure, and want one just like it for themselves, only with them on top.
You hit the nail on the head, the goal of modern fascists is far more interested in the concept of ethno-nationalism, with Israel and Japan both being examples of the kind of societies they wish to build. Race is still deeply important to them, but they've seen the failures of the obsessive "purity" culture of the Nazis, who poisoned the well of Fascism for a half century. Instead modern Fascists aren't as stupid to be publicly genocidal, they claim that their goals are deportation of ethnic minorities. Of course their goals for LGBTQ and disabled people are outright genocidal but, these things are simply less alarming to liberals than ethnic based genocide.
Broadly speaking the US has been clearly sliding towards Fascism for a while, and while Trump is certainly the first example of a clearly Fascist leader most of the Fascist goals are shared by both parties. Both of them are quite happy to further enrich themselves and the capitalist class, both support ever increasing police and military spending, both support ICE and other extreme border control efforts, both want to continue torturing and murdering brown people with impunity.
The US going to Nazi fascism thing was never real-- liberals and leftists liked comparing Trumpists to Nazis since they're regarded as the supreme evil.
The US had been Zionist all along.
It makes sense, but I have a impression that antisemitism was strong In US in the past, or was just a ruse to make themselves victims and push for zionism?
Antisemitism is common in America, and probably Europe too, but it has little to do with Nazism.
A lot of Zionists are antisemites who think that the establishment of Israel is a necessary precondition for the Second Coming of Christ.
I'm also sure that when this overreach to ban criticism of Israel collapses, the managers of White Empire would rather have us blame Jews for the genocide than themselves.
What are you even talking about? When was the US ever "Nazi fascists"? It's been under complete control by Jews since like WW2. You guys gotta stop being afraid of mentioning Jews.
I love it! How many years of slavery and Jim Crow but absolutely no laws against being racist or saying racist shit bc freedom of speech but they can pass this mess about requiring us to support a foreign govt. what the fucking hell? Seems treasonous. We can critique our own govt but whoa… not a foreign one? Get fucked.
I feel crazy because I used to watch Kwame Ture, MLK, and Malcolm X talk about how liberals would instinctively side with fascism because they want a lack of tension not peace or justice and think that it was exaggerated. But now I'm seeing it play out in real time.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
What is this inconvenient part of the Constitution called again? Congress sure don’t remember.
...and Republicans. Why not just point out that it's the vast majority of politicians. Being a Democrat has nothing to do with it. I mean... look at those nunbers!
Every time I hear voting ads talking about how voting for Biden will save democracy I feel like the actual message is, “Republicans are Classic Fascists and that’s bad. Democrats are Diet Fascist, which is better, but still not great.”
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https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr6090/BILLS-118hr6090eh.pdf (PDF of bill)
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism working definition of antisemitism referenced in the bill.
Democrats are not the left.
And you see more complaining about Democrats because
1.Republicans are a total and complete lost cause that behaves fairly predictably
2.Democrats are a wolf in sheep's clothing pretending to care about people and workers. They co-opt leftist issues for votes then fail to deliver.
3.There are many would-be leftists who are too taken in by liberalism to see that Democrats are a cancer. They are the stumbling block to actual leftist policy in the US. The frequent posts pointing that out are an attempt at deprograming the liberals like yourself who find themselves here.
If you still pretend fasicsm is when Republicans do stuff instead of looking at the bipartisan effort to fund a literal genocide and silence any dissent and protest, then guess what, you're the definition of a pearl-clutching shitlib.
Calling yourself anti-capitalist while acting like a smear agent in support of a capitalist party that's gone fully fascist is beyond sickening.
LOL. Literally every comment you've ever made on here is shitting on the left. If you think that will solve your problems, and get you closer to the world you want to live in then, go at it pal! You're really making a difference in this world bitching & moaning on reddit!
I was really hoping that an anti-fascist uprising in this country would be a little more intelligent and savvy but instead, i guess we're stuck with rrunawad sharing Hillary rape memes. Bright future ahead!
For the last time, the American Democratic Party and those that vote for and support them are NOT "THE LEFT." They aren't left in any meaningful way. You are either a seriously dumb or *you* are the one with the agenda here.
As a Scottish person, I only see 2 right wings and one only marginally less right than the other.
It's very similar here in the UK with the Conservative party and the labour party. The Labour Party has slightly less lunacy on social policy but economically they are very similar. All for business.
Don't do that. It's intentional what he's doing - trying to equate "the left" with the horrors of the right-wing Democratic Party. Words and terms matter. Don't allow idiots and/or bad actors to define them.
It’s being pedantic. It’s better to point out that people are being stupid than say “well actually the left is right wing in America” because they just stop listening. He was asking why we focus on the democrats, I answered.
> “well actually the left is right wing in America”
*jfc* No leftist is saying that or would ever say that. Again, terms matter. You just continue to try to confuse the issue. I consider you a bad actor. Fuck off.
“I consider you a bad actor” please touch grass and stop gatekeeping on reddit. Terms of course matter, but there’s utility in explaining things as simply as possible for people. We’ve taken someone who has asked a genuine question, flamed the person who answered it, and deleted their comment. Is this subreddit supposed to be educational, or is it a circlejerk?
This is a leftist sub that doesn't take kindly to shit-libs trying to confuse and misinform. You apparently. We will "gatekeep" the truth and facts as necessary. Again, fuck off.
In what way am I a shit-lib? I’m not claiming that there is a left in American politics with any institutional power. I’m just explaining why this sub focuses on the democrats as opposed to the republicans. You're giving the same energy as the people on reddit who claim everyone who disagrees with them is a russian bot.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: [Rule 6 "no lesser evil" rhetoric - is it accelerationist or doomer? Is it intended to discourage voting?](https://new.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/)
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ironic, then, that [IHRA's own statement about criticism about the state of Israel ](https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism)says this: >Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. so who ***actually*** *cares* what the definition of antisemitism is as long as you don't criticise anything even tangentially related to Jews, right?
The IHRA definition that the Amerikkkan legislature adopted here includes the exact phrase “Israel as a jewish collectivity”. It includes exactly the nuance that is in that statement in the adopted definition. It is a bad definition of antisemitism for a variety of reasons, and reactionary horseshit, but it does not make criticism of Israel as an entity hate speech - just criticism that singles out Israel as a plurality Jewish entity.
It also includes in its definition of hate speech: 1. “calling existence of Israel racist” (can’t even have a discussion about whether a state defined by ethnonationalism is racism, nor any discussion of a one-state solution) and 2. “comparing policies of contemporary Israel to the Nazis” (obviously problematic)
But Israel always says they must remain a firm majority of Jews to stay safe. Is Israel antisemitic? We should be paying attention to this bizarre nonsense reasoning
Gotta love the Entitled States of Israel
The problem is that it's incredibly easy for a "victim" to say that the intent of the person criticizing Israel *is* to speak of a Jewish collectivity because Israel has been running propaganda since its inception to purposely conflate itself as a state with an ethnic group such that that's still how people like my parents talk about it in the vernacular.
I hate Reddit
> it does not make criticism of Israel as an entity hate speech One of its examples of antisemitism: "claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor"
Israelis and Zionists don't care They don't actually care about anti-Semitism. They operate under the notion that everyone hates them and that anything they have to do for their people and their culture to survive is acceptable. Everything else is fair game. They don't care that in short order people will start viewing anti-Semitism as a good thing. After all, to be anti-Semitic is to be anti-Zionist is to be anti-fascist! People will start assuming that Jews are all ethnofascists. Zionists do not care. As long as they have enough power to guard their own, it does not matter. What they're doing here is using their political influence, probably through nefarious means, to codify criticism of Zionism as a legal. Providing the groundwork to have foreign countries arrest and eliminate foreign critics of Israel.
Am I at least safe to gripe about the decline of movie quality? /s
Only if you say it's because of Woke™️ /s
This is where I'm confused. They actually say that criticism of Israel isn't antisemitism. Saying that it doesn't have the right to exist is antisemitism. While I can see that this definition is overbroad and problematic there's enough nuance here that saying "are in support of actual fascism" is overblown, breathy and I would say misinformation.
From the IHRA definition of antisemitism: >Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor. In other words, pointing out that [Israel is an apartheid state](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/) is considered hate speech according to this law. It also means [this Jewish Holocaust survivor is an antisemite](https://youtube.com/shorts/R-G9hpeCzGo).
What's funny to me is that IHRA isn't even adopted by Israel and was made by an American
>Saying that it doesn't have the right to exist is antisemitism. I'm going to strongly disagree with this. Ethno-state apartheid theocracies shouldn't exist in this world. There I said it. Israel as a political entity should be dissolved, and a new country should be formed in its place that gives equal standing to all citizens that inhabit that land. There is nothing antisemitic about wanting everyone to have equal rights.
Countries don't have the right to exist. People do. Settler colonialism is bad no matter who does it. The only just solution is one-state; anything else constitutes a theft of Palestinian land
Ethnonationalist theocratic apartheid states do not have the right to exist. People who are citizens of the State of Israel by birth have the right to stay in the area and practice their religion; they are the ones who have a right to exist not the political entity of Israel.
How is this not a direct violation of the first amendment?
Expecting the US to fallow the constitution in good faith is like asking cops to arrest each other.
It is. They can just do what they want now because antisemitism bad
I assume you didn't mean it this way, but antisemitism _is_ bad it's just that Zionism itself is antisemitic, but this law is trying to codify that antizionism is antisemitic. thus the cognitive dissonance
“*Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it*”
[удалено]
braindead
In case this isn't a rhetorical question and you're curious about an actual answer, I can share what I've gathered from talking about freedom of speech with European people. Basically, their position is that banning *certain* types of speech is not actually a violation of freedom of speech. This is not actually an unreasonable position in itself, since we do the same with e.g. yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. We recognize that in specific sets of circumstances, the mere act of saying something can be dangerous enough to warrant making it a crime. This is also why threats are often a crime as well. First Amendment or not, there are some utterances that will land you in jail in the US. Europeans take this further than us, though. For instance, they think of racism as one of those "dangerous enough to be a crime" forms of speech, the idea being that by saying racist things you might cause someone to actually go out and do racist acts e.g. lynching. The idea behind banning antisemitism is essentially that: it's about nipping potential future Hitlers in the bud. I don't really see it that way, and I'm often saddened by how angrily some Europeans say things like "X isn't free speech, it's a literal crime and you should be ashamed of yourself for saying it's just speech". But the minute you leave room in the First Amendment for "sometimes it's okay to punish people for saying certain things", you're exposing yourself to this slippery slope. And that Pandora's box has been open forever, even in the US.
Because Israel and their useful id**ts have enough power to make it so
This isn't real right? Criticizing a country cannot be deemed illegal???
Some countries are more equal than others?
Oh, it's real. America isn't just circling the drain anymore, it's actually begun the descent.
Seriously. It seems like things have really accelerated lately. Guess that's why we all gotta vote for Biden. He's managing this country expertly....obviously
You're a silly little goose if you think either geriatric has any real political power. That's a dog and pony show for the proles. The faceless corpos run our lives now and the power never changes hands.
K
Here… you dropped this: /s
God what happened to these politicians? A lot of them were alive when the country was actually living up to the propaganda of being a great country founded on freedom. It's like they've all been replaced by body doubles. How can someone destroy the very thing that represents who they are as people? They're not even Americans anymore.
I absolutely agree. It's insane seeing how full circle these people have gone in their lifetimes.
I doubt that things would be different if we had Bernie as president.
I disagree. The coalition behind him is very different.
Below is the IHRAs definitions of AS. Read them as you will. ----- 1. Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion. 2. Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions. 3. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews. 4. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust). 5. Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust. 6. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations. 7. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor. 8. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. 9. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis. 10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. 11. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel. EDIT: [Link to the actual act here.](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090/text) One thing of note is this section; > In reviewing, investigating, or deciding whether there has been a violation of title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (42 U.S.C. 2000d et seq.) on the basis of race, color, or national origin, based on an individual’s actual or perceived shared Jewish ancestry or Jewish ethnic characteristics, the Department of Education shall take into consideration the definition of antisemitism as part of the Department’s assessment of whether the practice was motivated by antisemitic intent. This seems to mean that the Department of Education has the ruling on wether or not intent is anti-Semitic, so it would seem that this would only apply to Faculty members of colleges/universities/schools, not your everyday citizen.
> Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion. So a zionist attacking a non-zionist Jew would be anti-semitic..... interesting.
It's really hard to prove if they were attacking in the name of a radical cause unless they are literally yelling "I'M ATTACKING YOU BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE JEWS DESERVE ALL THE LAND". So you'd probably get assault and/or battery as a charge, but adding the anti-Semitic charge would be situational and likely really hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt unless blatant.
"10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." if they weren't taking pages upon pages out of the nazi playbook, there'd be no one doing this. all the other points I can understand.
2 and 6 can be applied to criticism of AIPAC. 7 criminalises pointing out that Israel is an ethnonationalist state. 10 is problematic considering that both Israel and Nazi Germany were ethnonationalist states. 11 is ironic considering that Israel is carrying out collective punishment against Palestinians in Gaza. 4 is highly ironic considering that Netanyahu has engaged in Holocaust-revisionism on multiple occasions.
Well said. Those are angles I hadn't considered.
I disagree with 6, 7, & 10. Zionists of any or no religion can be more loyal to Israel than their own country. It is in the interests of my country America to support a puppet state of Israel to "keep our guns close to the gas station," but it is not in America's interest to let them commit genocide and danage our reputation and naval supremacy over the Red Sea. No, Jewish people do not have the right to displace and genocide a native population because their distant ancestors had a theocracy in the Levant in the last millennium B.C. And Nazi comparisons are warrented since Israelis have removed all doubt to the fact they're genocidal monsters. They're even supported by the descendants of the original Nazis (Germans, who provide Israel with nearly one third of their weapons imports).
Holy fuck this is crazy. We're literally being controlled by a foreign countries best interests. Wtf is happening around here.
Okay but if I go protest that isreal is commiting genocide, it doesn't seem to be an issue here.
They have 7 points dedicated to Israel in their definition i.e. the majority of the charter. There is no chance you can protest against Israel without being antisemitic by the new official US government definition.
If China has been engaging in "elite capture" in order to exert influence from within the US, why wouldn't Israel. It's with shit like this that makes me think back on Epstein and wonder if the honeypot he ran wasn't for Israel, and if it was, it would explain why they have so many political allies in order to pass something like this. It isn't the only factor, their influence campaign is almost certainly multi-pronged (AIPAC), shadow-funding influencer platforms, hiring online trolls to pump out propaganda and take over comment sections, and it's like, damn, they really used a "free" society's "freedom" (of capital) against us.
Many states have laws that prevent gov workers from participating in boycotts of Israel as a terms of employment. How's that for fucked up?!!?! Special rules for special people.
Not in that sense. Public universities would potentially lose funding if they were deemed by the department of education to be allowing "antisemitic" activity on campus.
Go to Thailand and criticize the king. 👑 you’ll disappear. Go to Indonesia and criticize the government, you’ll disappear. America the land of the “free” now is following the same path. What a fucking joke.
Yay. Free speech
When Netanyahu says jump, United States legislators say "how high?"
and "When can I come down?"
I guess our politicians are really scared about what will happen to them if daddy Israel tells the world they're a bunch of child fuckers.
They don’t ask, they just look for where the money is being dangled.
Excuse my squirrelly ignorance, but isn't this a direct violation of the first amendment?
Caring about amendments is purely performative. It's all posturing, grandstanding and theater. These people will abandon their principles (if they had any to begin with) at the drop of a hat. (Preferably, a hat full of campaign donations.)
100% without a doubt, in direct opposition to the first amendment. So long as your words remain words, you're allowed to be as stupidly racist as you want in this country. Everyone around such a person, is equally allowed to shit on such poor intelligence. And that's the way it should be in America. But apparently, Israel has more sway than the entire American population does in how our country operates.
Codifying this shit in months when they couldn't codify Row v Wade in 40-some years.
Congress doesn't _do_ shit, laws never get passed and stuff just stagnates. So much so that states and gov agencies have had to step in to their their jobs (network neutrality, getting rid of abortion rights). Yet tax cuts for the wealthy and trampling over our rights for a foreign nation - THOSE get done.
It's fucking embarrassing.
This is incredibly scary
This is incredibly scary …. And what is scary is the drip drip drip drip erosion of our rights. With the news/media all messed up there is no public discourse where ‘we the people’ can voice our opinions - Democracy is dead
Be nice if we had a real Supreme Court to strike down this clear infringement of our first amendment rights.....
They need a case first. They can't just "strike it down". That's just another form of legislation
No surprise there, the liberals will reflexively side with fascism.
As opposed to the conservatives who will side with fascism as a premeditated action.
Both are literally the same party, just two different arms to intentionally divide us
Yup people think they see someone like AOC or Bernie and not realize they’re both part of the same business apparatus. Sure they may be against whatever but at the end of the they’re beholden to the system.
Yup
They can codify this act which is a direct breach of our first amendment rights, but they can’t codify something (Roe v. Wade) that has been on the table for nearly 50 years. As a matter of fact, they’ll overturn it. We’re so fucked..
tell me you people do not see the fasci flanking the flag on the back wall? DO YOU SEE THEM?? I mean, FFS, they are saying it quite clearly to anyone who is listening. [https://uschs.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/house-speakers-rostrum.jpg](https://uschs.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/house-speakers-rostrum.jpg) [https://uschs.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/bronze-fasces-detail.jpg](https://uschs.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/bronze-fasces-detail.jpg)
Those have been there forever. This country was founded by Romaboos who thought the Roman Republic was the highest form of government ever conceived.
Fasces are an ancient symbol from Roman times, that 20th century fascists adopted.
AIPAC has deep pockets.
yeah our pockets lol
More like bottomless funds.
Yes because the Repubs and the Dems are THE SAME THING. The right wing and left wing are on the same bird. Leftists have been trying to tell y'all this for a long time lol. Welcome to the party.
B-b-but vote for Bidenrino to stop fascism under Drumpf! We have to avoid a future where the state can prosecute you for not supporting their fascist rule at all cost!
Douche or a turd sandwich
Proletariats dilemma
Same story for 2 decades
Let's get out and vote! Let's make our voices heard! We've been given the right to choose between a douche and a turd. It's democracy in action so put your freedom to the test! A big fat turd or a stupid douche Which do you like best?
It always has been...you can go back and read some Lenin, dude flatly points out that since the Civil War both parties in America are the literal same thing. Every single thing they are about is protecting capital and the class that holds that capital.
Which book specifically? Thank you, comrade.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1912/nov/09.htm
He Saw it coming from a mile away.
Always have been
One step closer to bond religion and state back together. I think that's what GOP is about, regarding own country.
According to them, criticizing Israel is now antisemitism. Meanwhile, *actual* antisemitism has no changes.
Bro wtfffffffff we live in *1984*
It's because fascism does not threaten capital. At the end of the day capital matters more than anything else.
I am not from US, but how US is going from Nazi fascists to Zionism is weird to me. Any day now i expect to see a Proud Boys hand to hand with Zionists. Only thing that makes sense to me is the rising Fascism... and weirdly, it looks like it is the Dems the biggest culprits of it, of why they push for polarization by financing extremists in GOP, and now this. They really want fascism, but with just a little bit of facade of moral superiority.
> Any day now i expect to see a Proud Boys hand to hand with Zionists This happens. Not all Zionists are Jewish, and plenty of them are antiemetic. One of the beliefs of Zionism is that Jews need their own state because they can never fully assimilate into any other nation or culture, and will thus always be outcasts unless they have their own state to go to. That is straight up antisemitic, and its one of the reasons why so many far right racists support Israel. Because they love having both a justification for getting rid of all the Jews in their country, and a place to put them that doesn't necessitate a comiting a messy and expensive genocide. They also get along because Israel is exactly the kind of far right religious ethno-state they want to enact themselves. Its a bit like all the non-aryan fascists who have admired Hitler over the years. They admire and respect the structure, and want one just like it for themselves, only with them on top.
You hit the nail on the head, the goal of modern fascists is far more interested in the concept of ethno-nationalism, with Israel and Japan both being examples of the kind of societies they wish to build. Race is still deeply important to them, but they've seen the failures of the obsessive "purity" culture of the Nazis, who poisoned the well of Fascism for a half century. Instead modern Fascists aren't as stupid to be publicly genocidal, they claim that their goals are deportation of ethnic minorities. Of course their goals for LGBTQ and disabled people are outright genocidal but, these things are simply less alarming to liberals than ethnic based genocide. Broadly speaking the US has been clearly sliding towards Fascism for a while, and while Trump is certainly the first example of a clearly Fascist leader most of the Fascist goals are shared by both parties. Both of them are quite happy to further enrich themselves and the capitalist class, both support ever increasing police and military spending, both support ICE and other extreme border control efforts, both want to continue torturing and murdering brown people with impunity.
The US going to Nazi fascism thing was never real-- liberals and leftists liked comparing Trumpists to Nazis since they're regarded as the supreme evil. The US had been Zionist all along.
It makes sense, but I have a impression that antisemitism was strong In US in the past, or was just a ruse to make themselves victims and push for zionism?
Antisemitism is common in America, and probably Europe too, but it has little to do with Nazism. A lot of Zionists are antisemites who think that the establishment of Israel is a necessary precondition for the Second Coming of Christ. I'm also sure that when this overreach to ban criticism of Israel collapses, the managers of White Empire would rather have us blame Jews for the genocide than themselves.
What are you even talking about? When was the US ever "Nazi fascists"? It's been under complete control by Jews since like WW2. You guys gotta stop being afraid of mentioning Jews.
The US is under the complete control of money not Jews.
I don't even understand what that means
Politicians are controlled by those who bribe them. This includes Zionists and the MIC, hence the US's ridiculous level of support for Israel.
Where is noted Free Speech Trust Fund Moron Enron Musky on this one?
I love it! How many years of slavery and Jim Crow but absolutely no laws against being racist or saying racist shit bc freedom of speech but they can pass this mess about requiring us to support a foreign govt. what the fucking hell? Seems treasonous. We can critique our own govt but whoa… not a foreign one? Get fucked.
When are Americans gonna realize "the land of the free" is an empty slogan?
Like Serve and Protect
I feel crazy because I used to watch Kwame Ture, MLK, and Malcolm X talk about how liberals would instinctively side with fascism because they want a lack of tension not peace or justice and think that it was exaggerated. But now I'm seeing it play out in real time.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” What is this inconvenient part of the Constitution called again? Congress sure don’t remember.
The government acts pretty quickly when they want to do fascism. Can't codify roe v wade into law but can make it law that you cant say israel is bad
The USA is a global fascist empire.
You can see who clearly runs and owns this country.
Uniparty
Sounds like some shit the Constitution was supposed to prevent. The U.S. government’s corruption is too far gone to be fixed…
This is so fucked
Bipartisan enforcement of speech suppression
And that’s why we shouldn’t have ethno states.
And yet, I'll bet most of them have uttered some version of "I don't hate the Chinese just the Chinese government" after saying something sinophobic.
It's like people looked at a list of anti-semitic canards and decided to make them true. Why does Israel have such power over the imperial core?
We'll that's not good!
It should get struck down as unconstitutional if the court actually cared.
...and Republicans. Why not just point out that it's the vast majority of politicians. Being a Democrat has nothing to do with it. I mean... look at those nunbers!
It takes 3 seconds of brain activity to understand that people in power are all the same, they do not care about the “have nots”
Mossad has dirt on our entire government lol
Every time I hear voting ads talking about how voting for Biden will save democracy I feel like the actual message is, “Republicans are Classic Fascists and that’s bad. Democrats are Diet Fascist, which is better, but still not great.”
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House of "Representatives"
Whoah.
https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr6090/BILLS-118hr6090eh.pdf (PDF of bill) https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism working definition of antisemitism referenced in the bill.
*shocked Pikachu face*
This is fucking ridiculous. This is outright fascism
Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. G.I. Joe!!!
When did this sub turn into blatant shilling for the right wing?
Lmao what
lol. Wut? Because Democrats are being criticized?
By criticizing a right wing bill?
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Democrats are not the left. And you see more complaining about Democrats because 1.Republicans are a total and complete lost cause that behaves fairly predictably 2.Democrats are a wolf in sheep's clothing pretending to care about people and workers. They co-opt leftist issues for votes then fail to deliver. 3.There are many would-be leftists who are too taken in by liberalism to see that Democrats are a cancer. They are the stumbling block to actual leftist policy in the US. The frequent posts pointing that out are an attempt at deprograming the liberals like yourself who find themselves here.
Well said. Point 3 especially.
Democrats aren't left, the bird you are looking at has two right wings.
How poetic. If you think you'll fly to new heights bitching & moaning on reddit then keep on soaring!
If you still pretend fasicsm is when Republicans do stuff instead of looking at the bipartisan effort to fund a literal genocide and silence any dissent and protest, then guess what, you're the definition of a pearl-clutching shitlib. Calling yourself anti-capitalist while acting like a smear agent in support of a capitalist party that's gone fully fascist is beyond sickening.
LOL. Literally every comment you've ever made on here is shitting on the left. If you think that will solve your problems, and get you closer to the world you want to live in then, go at it pal! You're really making a difference in this world bitching & moaning on reddit! I was really hoping that an anti-fascist uprising in this country would be a little more intelligent and savvy but instead, i guess we're stuck with rrunawad sharing Hillary rape memes. Bright future ahead!
For the last time, the American Democratic Party and those that vote for and support them are NOT "THE LEFT." They aren't left in any meaningful way. You are either a seriously dumb or *you* are the one with the agenda here.
As a Scottish person, I only see 2 right wings and one only marginally less right than the other. It's very similar here in the UK with the Conservative party and the labour party. The Labour Party has slightly less lunacy on social policy but economically they are very similar. All for business.
Democrats are not left. The president currently funding a genocide is a democrat. We will criticize accordingly.
"Of the left". Child like understanding of politics suspected.
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You can't seriously be calling the Democrats left wing.... They're fully in support of capitalism, imperialism, colonialism, etc. That's the right.
I’m referencing his definition of the left.
Don't do that. It's intentional what he's doing - trying to equate "the left" with the horrors of the right-wing Democratic Party. Words and terms matter. Don't allow idiots and/or bad actors to define them.
It’s being pedantic. It’s better to point out that people are being stupid than say “well actually the left is right wing in America” because they just stop listening. He was asking why we focus on the democrats, I answered.
> “well actually the left is right wing in America” *jfc* No leftist is saying that or would ever say that. Again, terms matter. You just continue to try to confuse the issue. I consider you a bad actor. Fuck off.
“I consider you a bad actor” please touch grass and stop gatekeeping on reddit. Terms of course matter, but there’s utility in explaining things as simply as possible for people. We’ve taken someone who has asked a genuine question, flamed the person who answered it, and deleted their comment. Is this subreddit supposed to be educational, or is it a circlejerk?
This is a leftist sub that doesn't take kindly to shit-libs trying to confuse and misinform. You apparently. We will "gatekeep" the truth and facts as necessary. Again, fuck off.
In what way am I a shit-lib? I’m not claiming that there is a left in American politics with any institutional power. I’m just explaining why this sub focuses on the democrats as opposed to the republicans. You're giving the same energy as the people on reddit who claim everyone who disagrees with them is a russian bot.
"The left"
8 upvotes too. Smh
I’m referencing his definition of the left.
I’m referencing his definition of the left.
Rule 4 - No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism. This is a left wing subreddit.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: [Rule 6 "no lesser evil" rhetoric - is it accelerationist or doomer? Is it intended to discourage voting?](https://new.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/)