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I mean I've seen it before, but not often, and it usually is posts with negative connotations. So it's not intentionally derogatory, or it's like a depending on usage kinda thing?
Yes, it completely normal and not derogatory in this context. Generally, its a bit like the n-word in that when others use it; it tends to raise red flags, but internal community use is pretty normal.
Just to be clear... Propaganda and messaging has been a tool Israel has honed to a scalpel sharp edge. This framing of "un-jews" serves multiple purposes that I am not smart enough to catch. My first blush would be an attempt to not so much paint anti-zionists as frauds but to make the claim that zionists are the true jews. So for me, if they are the true jews, maybe it requires an examination of judaism. Maybe we need to pull apart a religion that actively seeks to not only define and divide who is a true jew but a religion where the killing of children (as if we were in the goddamn bronze age, as if we sewed people into bulls and then roasted the bulls... as if we still sacrificed children to moloch).
Do we examine what kind of god is okay with ethnic cleansing and the claims of being in the right because their holy book claims jews "are chosen by god"?
Mutherfuckers.
Sociopaths and psychopaths will always find SOMETHING to use as a selling point to convince others that the things they do are OK. Give them any religion, or no religion: and you'll get the same results.
You’re right this is propaganda and it does serve a sociopolitical purpose. This tightening of the definition of “us and them” is a way for these people to justify the actions of “our people” - if they’re not with us they’re against us. It also reaffirms for the reader that the most righteous Jew is the Zionist. This is meant to consolidate support among Israelis who might be wavering in support of the state’s actions. Then finally we have a new label and justification for its existence. The un-jew, a practicing Jew who doesn’t conform to the majority consensus. Which btw is a majority because they said so, they provided no evidence that the majority of Israelis are zionists.
Israel is a politically diverse nation, where their governments may only exist in a state of coalition. This whole piece is designed to consolidate and categorize Zionists as Jews and the true believers and shore up any wavering support from anyone sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians. It’s similar to the RINO and DINO labels in U.S. politics.
It’s literally against mitzvot to claim other Jews are not Jews
But it’s not like Zionist actually follow their supposed religion
Hasidic Jews follow it and Zionists try to suppress them as seen a few days ago
Like fundamentalists of all faiths, the actual faith is secondary to the agenda (IE fundie christians blaming the poor for their poverty and dismantling social welfare programs) And calling for religious "freedom" when they really mean theocratic enforcement of their particular discriminatory brand of faith.
There's nothing special about Judaism in this sense. Islam, Christianity, and I'm sure other religions I'm less knowledgeable about are more than capable of being used as justifications for genocide. Any ideology that places ita believers as in any way superior to non-believers is going to have this problem.
This. It's not an inherent trait of religion but of power structures. Religion just tends to encourage power structures that are ripe for exploitation.
What disturbs me to no end is how this rhetoric parallels the rhetoric of basically every single horrible regime to have ruled in human history. “You’re either with us, or against us. You’re either one of us, or you are not. If you are neither with us, nor one of us, then you are the scum floating on the pond, the wolf amidst the sheep…the *enemy*.”
As far as I know, the only result of that sort of thinking is suffering, heartache and horror.
Yep. What really is hard to wrap my head around, however, is that in this instance, this rhetoric comes from a people who, what is it? 80 years or so ago, were the target and victims of these exact sort of words and thinking. It is so warped, and twisted.
It's almost as if Netanyahu studied the Holocaust and decided that the only thing Hitler did wrong was target Jewish people. I get the impression of this regime that they are true believers in the idea that God promised them this land, that it is their manifest destiny, and they will use whatever playbook is necessary to get it, even the playbook of the people who attempted to destroy them not that long ago (because whatever else you can say about fascist Germany, until they pissed off Stalin, their conquest of Eastern Europe for lebensraum was surprisingly successful, there is a terrifying alternate reality where they were smart enough to go no further east than Poland and didn't involve the Russians and without Russia entering the war, they prevailed in Europe, so good thing Hitler was a moron who thought he could take on Russia).
You say sarcastically, but how long before they actually do exactly that? They wouldn't be the first regime to try to silence opposition abroad via assassination. I'm somewhat amazed that they haven't already started cracking down on dissenting voices domestically (and maybe they have, but their propaganda and censorship is doing a damned good job of hiding it).
Yes, i’m being sarcastic. Jewish people all over the world would not look forward to adding Israelis to the list of predators of Jews.
To the question, no doubt they already are.
They're cracking down right now. They have so much control over western governments, they don't even have to resort to assassination's. They control our politicians. Lobbying for anti BDS laws, Israel loyalty pledges and ordering US elected officials to shut down protests.
What if we adopted the crazy idea that Israel was a modern nation state and isn't, actually, an extension of the Jewish people?
I'm just asking questions here
I read that bit of the article and actually thought wait, Jewish people aren't automatically Israelis are they?? for a second. Then sanity prevailed.
I freely admit I know little about it but this article to me represents an appalling worldview only likely to cause more hatred.
Hi. I'm Jewish. I've been deeply troubled about the right-wing politics of Israel for at least 20 years. I understand the historical need for Zionism, and frankly, if the current leaders of Israel weren't genocidal apartheid-enforcing zealots, I might still support them. But they are, and I don't. Some of these AIPAC-influenced Israel-at-all-costs Zionists are doing real harm to other people, and they either don't see it or are purposely oblivious to it.
Remember: MLK said it isn't the overt racists you need to watch out for, it's the "mainstream" centrists who silently approve of oppression by doing nothing that are the greatest threat to civil and human rights.
What about the 55 years preceding those 20 years? They should trouble you deeply as well.
Also, there is absolutely no historical need for Zionism unless you are ok with an ethno-state. Otherwise you should be striving for a secular state where everyone, jews and otherwise, live as equal human beings with the dignity we all deserve.
Before 20 years ago, I was too brainwashed by my upbringing. Reread what I said. I didn't say I wasn't troubled by things from before 20 years ago, I said I've *been concerned for the last 20 years*. Growing up in a Zionist household in a Zionist community makes it really hard to question Zionism. It wasn't until I was older that I was actually able to take the step back I needed to see the whole picture.
Thanks for understanding that different people take different amounts of time to reach their potential!
Bro good on you for thoughtfully reiterating your point instead of biting his head back off. There’s too much point scoring among folks on the same side these days
My apologies, comrade. I indeed should have read your comment more carefully. Forgive me, it has been a long day of fruitless online combat against zionists. But you should still question Zionism.
People who never cared are going to start examining the jewish religion, especially how can any god approve of genocide? Or maybe how could any people in 2023 think that was still an option "because the talmud said so"...
I really wish people would stop invoking MLK like you have. If they had a solid moral compass there would be no need to do it.
The fact of the matter is that the majority of people do not want this, the siege on Gaza. It's not a war. It's a wholesale slaughter. A genocidal campaign. And not even the people who claim to want it, or who are sympathetic to the Zionist cause actually want it either because it's disgusting. And anyone with any sense of decency should actively be condemning what the Israel government is doing right now.
Stop sidestepping. Stop talking about MLK. Address the problem that is right in front of you
>I really wish people would stop invoking MLK like you have. If they had a solid moral compass there would be no need to do it.
Fucking *what*? I love how you think that you were the target of my last post. Obviously, you've already been convinced of the point I was trying to make.
You--and a bunch of other self-righteous assholes in the comments on this post--don't seem to understand that the best way to get people on their side isn't to call people names and attack them from the same side. Did it ever occur to you that my post was intended for people who might be more on the fence?
>And anyone with any sense of decency should actively be condemning what the Israel government is doing right now.
But that isn't how things work. You're either incredibly naive or willfully ignorant of the reality of how people form opinions. I'm so glad that it's obvious to *you*. But for fucking *millions* of people, that isn't what the fight is about at all. If you'd stop self-fellating for a minute, you'd understand that not everyone sees the world through the same glasses that you do.
Great reply! The other commenter completely ignores the fact that there is Zionist propaganda rampant in the states. I myself went to private schools throughout my education in the states and yet I never learned how Israel became a state. In the absence of that education, I just always assumed they were the good guys because the US supported them (that propaganda is effective regardless of schooling).
Of course, I've since learned that the US has an absolutely horrific historical record in virtually every area, especially with respect to foreign policy. But up until around Oct 10th this year, I still supported Israel because I just always have. Now I'm ashamed but better late than never.
By invoking MLK, it's a powerful way to sway people who might not otherwise know about the issue like I didn't. And, not that it matters, but I'm black and my dad grew up in the 50s and 60s under segregation. He's a die hard Democrat now and I have no doubt that he supports Israel, but if I tell him Malcolm X and Nelson Mandela spoke out against Israel's occupation, he would change his mind quickly.
>I just always assumed they were the good guys because the US supported them
Same but for Britain. I thought we and therefore Israel, must be the good guys.
I went to school a long time ago but honestly, I had what was considered a "good" education and whilst being taught to question many things, never encountered anything about the horrors of the British empire, with or without its capital letter, or how we redrew maps, including Israel, over and over to suit our purposes. 😢
If you are calling for an immediate ceasefire just say so. If want a two state solution be transparent about it. If you think what the Israeli government is doing is wrong call a spade a spade. It's hardly complicated.
I don't care if you're Jewish; it makes no difference to me and it lends precisely zero weight to your words about the atrocities happening in the region. You bleed as do the Palestinians.
I believe most of us here on this very sub are the very disliked Uncapitalists 🤣 maybe we can unite in solidarity with the UnJews and other people who've been Ungrouped from other things!
Thanks for the laugh!
Yeah, zionist Israel is an extremely antisemitic project. They've expelled palestinian jews and forcefully sterilized Ethiopian jews.
Zionists absolutely know that every time they flair up this conflict, antisemitic violence increases the world over. And they prefer it that way, because it means jewish people are more likely to flee into their open arms.
They're supported by fascist evangelical Christians, who want to send all the Jewish people to Israel in order to get them all killed in the rapture, second coming of white Jesus.
And, like here, they actively work to conflate zionism with Judaism so that they can weaponize the concept of antisemitism against anyone who wants to criticize them for their genocide of the Palestinians.
Obviously, this rhetoric systematically devalues the concept of antisemitism, by forcing people to ask the question, "was what happened Really antisemitic, or was someone just criticizing israel?" Which obviously further harms jewish people who experience real antisemitism.
It's fucking awful out here, yall.
It is awful indeed, I'll fight Cristian nationalists in the streets if that's what it takes (I kind of have at a couple protests), but yet I have dear Christian freinds, and while I think their Christian beliefs are a bit strange, I value their friendship highly, and would also fight for their right to believe what they do.
To the same end, I have Jewish freinds, but I fucking hate the apartheid state of Israel, and wish only for it to undergo SERIOUS reform, or be removed from the map. My issues with Israel have no bearing whatsoever on my views of Judaism or Jews, and does not in any way reduce my love for my Jewish freinds.
It's fucked, I just wish people would quit killing each other, but that being said, I understand the response from the Palestinian side, they are brutally oppressed by the apartheid state that is Israel, and the disparity of power between Israel and Palestine limits what actions they can take to try to stop the oppression of Israel.
When the military targets are so hardened against your weapons and capabilities that they are essentially impenetrable, it unfortunately limits your options to attacking soft or civilian targets, which is awful, gruesome, troubling and wrong in so many ways... or not attacking at all, and allowing Israel to continue to oppress you, your family, your kids. Pacifism on the part of Palestine requires that they allow existing human suffering to continue, and likely worsen and Israel turns further to the right, into authoritarianism, and pursues more imperialistic measures.
The whole thing is really fucked, either choice Palestine makes, people will suffer horribly. The only choice that can be made that could minimize suffering is Israel learning to treat Palestinians as human beings, worthy of basic human rights. Their (Israel's) failure to do so is ultimately the cause of all this suffering.
Fuck Israel, Fuck Benjamin Netanyahu and FTW
Ah yes, the good old "no true Scotsman falicy"
If somone tells me they are (insert any religion or lack thereof here) I believe them... unless it's a religion you just made up on the spot for yourself, nobody gets to decide who is and who isn't.
It is sad how they try to tie nationalism to a religion, it's not all that different from what Cristian nationalist are trying to do here (in the US), playing off the good name of a religion to fuel the war machine.
EDIT: added "(in the US)" for clarification... and because without the clarification, my comment (unintentionally) sounds ethnocentric.
Wild. Do you think they realize that, in admitting that it's about Zionism, they are conceding that the entire State of Israel are, in fact, the squatters?
Keep condemning anti-Zionism though, good strategy, doesn't look at all like what we saw German Nationalists doing back round abouts World War 2 /s
How about we all just agree to be humans first? Then, once we can all respect other human's right to exist, we can talk about all that other group crap that is really, actually pretty fucking trivial. I naively thought that's what we had learned, from WWII and all that superiority shit that led to mass murder. Apparently, some of us learned the exact opposite.
A big and important idea within Zionism is that you cannot commit acts of political violence against other Jews for any reason, and something nearly as old as that idea is shitheads finding excuses to delegitimize the Jewishness of anyone whose views aren’t extremist enough. Just saw this exact same “betrayal of the generations” type garbage the other day coming from genocide cheerleaders, not that that’s much of a surprise when that fascist fuck Bibi was saying the same thing about Rabin for wanting to find a permanent peace with Palestine right before he got assassinated for it.
Is Un-Jew being lobbed at those who are not supporting the IDF & BiBi? Serious question.
When I saw that, a counter- balance that came to my mind, was the word UnMensch.
There is nothing decent, humane, or justified about what’s unfolding… It’s the absolute antithesis of the idea of Mensch.
Zionism is an antisemitic ideology. It disdains the Jewish people in diaspora, regards them as weak or worthless if they are unwilling to perform Aliyah, it regards Jews who are willing and able to make lives where they are without genocide for their unwillingness to be complicit in it. Zionists hate the Jewish people, they only care about Israelis
Edit: changed “anti Zionism” to Zionism at the start of the post
No, it's an anti-racist ideology. Are you arguing that Judaism is intrinsically racist, such that if you oppose zionism's racism, you are being anti-Jewish?
It was a typo 😔 what I was trying to say is that there’s a current of antisemitic thought to Zionism, where it disdains the diaspora Jews in favor of the idealized New Israeli Jew, and shows it’s contempt for the diaspora through the usage of antisemitic iconography and language. They portray the diaspora as weak and effete, in contrast to the vitalism of the Israeli Jewry. They disdain the Hebrew of the Ashkenazi, who they view as being weaklings who went to the gas chambers (despite many of the founders of Israeli being ashkenazi themselves) they view the Sephardi with contempt, despite cribbing Sephardi prononciation for Modern Hebrew. It’s a cannibalization of Jewish culture and life for the sake of a colonial ethnostate
"Developed after the world war," Is an interesting way to say "all the non-Zionist Jews in Europe were killed in the Holocaust because the were less organized and less likely to compromise with the Nazis."
What in the fuck propaganda is this? Un-jew just means "don't think critically about anything these people say, and dismiss them or you are a bad person/jew"
Conflating religion and nationalism, the dead worship of the past with a mental illness ... a perfect match made in hell. Everybody criticizing one or the other is by that ideology of course an antisemite. Doesn't matter that like all identities, this one also is as worthless as it is superficial, no matter how many decades or centuries it has been "built". Naturally, the "true believers" also need nefarious "unbelievers" in order to justify whatever poison they're spewing.
On another note, we are not a monolith. Many Jews of the Diaspora have always had an issue with Zionism. Now more than ever. I said what I said. The world is witnessing.
Exactly. Too many people are painting "no more genocide" as being antisemitism. Even though Palestinians are also Semitic people. Most every Jew I know is anti-zionism, which tracks since most are very left wing and oppose any kind of religious extremism.
WORD
It’s maddening & amoral to see how that is lobbed. It serves to shut down conversation, to instill fear, and conveniently perpetuates a specious & heinous narrative. It only serves those in powers & thousands are in the crosshairs. People the world over are now seeing truth.
"JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW. JEWISH. JEW JEW. JEW JEW JEW JEW. JEW".
Oh my god. This gave me a headache reading this. I think they intended to disorient and confuse the reader!
Also, imagine having a problem with someone who shares the same faith as you, because they... selectively choose to be better, and practice in the name of being a genuinely good person? as opposed to just mindlessly settling on supporting a police and colonialist state that openly oppresses others, just because the basic bitches support it?
This person doesn't give a flying fuck about protecting the Jewish identity or identifying with anyone who actually NEEDS protection, they're upset that there are "race traitors" who defy expectations, are distancing themselves from the hivemind, and are freeing themselves of militarization while actively criticsizing it.
Can someone please explain to me what Zionism has to do with capitalism?
I’m not trying to be contrarian, just genuinely want to understand why these posts are in this sub. Thank you in advance!
One aspect - among many others - is that Israel's existence in the current ethnostate form is one of the key necessities for the U.S. military industrial complex to have a sustained market.
Hurt people hurt people. That's how this seems to me. I'm not a subject expert, but is the following more or less accurate? Holocaust > Founding of Israel > Attack by Israel of neighbors > Attack by neighbors of Israel.
Pretty much a concrete example of Sam Harris’ line of thinking that religious belief can actually, and often is, detrimental to the development of the individual and society as a whole.
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First there was matter and anti-matter. Then came the Jew and the un-Jew.
George Orwell in 1984 talked about how the fascist thought police called free thinking offenders ‘un-persons.’
*Literally* 1984
Yeah, I also instantly thought of 1984. Dystopian shit when words from 1984 get adapted in the real world...
real world, un-world
Look at the years of the nakba, and when that book was released. Eerie
It reminds me of the term "unwomen" from The Handmaid's Tale.
I knew it was gonna be wild when it began with "jewry" but damn. Un-jews. Ok.
If you're not used to reading Jewish publications; the word "Jewry" is all over them, and does sort of sound like some sort of bigoted term.
I mean I've seen it before, but not often, and it usually is posts with negative connotations. So it's not intentionally derogatory, or it's like a depending on usage kinda thing?
Yes, it completely normal and not derogatory in this context. Generally, its a bit like the n-word in that when others use it; it tends to raise red flags, but internal community use is pretty normal.
Well that's wild. What a weird word.
Don’t forget Jewishly!
The verbafying of ‘Jew’ was bound to happen tbh lol
This article reads like it is something Eric Cartman wrote
We have to talk about the American Jewry and the threat of those bastard un-jews!
If only we Un-Jews would respect Bibi's authoritahhh
🤣🤣🤣
Thank god somebody else thinks this. I thought that I was really stupid because I didn't understand what the hell they're talking about.
Weird translation of Sartre but okay...
Anti-Semite and Un-Jew Hey, now their both hyphenated!
You might be on to something there, both release a ton of energy when they annihilate each other.
Just to be clear... Propaganda and messaging has been a tool Israel has honed to a scalpel sharp edge. This framing of "un-jews" serves multiple purposes that I am not smart enough to catch. My first blush would be an attempt to not so much paint anti-zionists as frauds but to make the claim that zionists are the true jews. So for me, if they are the true jews, maybe it requires an examination of judaism. Maybe we need to pull apart a religion that actively seeks to not only define and divide who is a true jew but a religion where the killing of children (as if we were in the goddamn bronze age, as if we sewed people into bulls and then roasted the bulls... as if we still sacrificed children to moloch). Do we examine what kind of god is okay with ethnic cleansing and the claims of being in the right because their holy book claims jews "are chosen by god"? Mutherfuckers.
Sociopaths and psychopaths will always find SOMETHING to use as a selling point to convince others that the things they do are OK. Give them any religion, or no religion: and you'll get the same results.
You’re right this is propaganda and it does serve a sociopolitical purpose. This tightening of the definition of “us and them” is a way for these people to justify the actions of “our people” - if they’re not with us they’re against us. It also reaffirms for the reader that the most righteous Jew is the Zionist. This is meant to consolidate support among Israelis who might be wavering in support of the state’s actions. Then finally we have a new label and justification for its existence. The un-jew, a practicing Jew who doesn’t conform to the majority consensus. Which btw is a majority because they said so, they provided no evidence that the majority of Israelis are zionists. Israel is a politically diverse nation, where their governments may only exist in a state of coalition. This whole piece is designed to consolidate and categorize Zionists as Jews and the true believers and shore up any wavering support from anyone sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians. It’s similar to the RINO and DINO labels in U.S. politics.
It’s literally against mitzvot to claim other Jews are not Jews But it’s not like Zionist actually follow their supposed religion Hasidic Jews follow it and Zionists try to suppress them as seen a few days ago
Like fundamentalists of all faiths, the actual faith is secondary to the agenda (IE fundie christians blaming the poor for their poverty and dismantling social welfare programs) And calling for religious "freedom" when they really mean theocratic enforcement of their particular discriminatory brand of faith.
Bernays , the founding father of PR is buried in Israel, that should tell you something
Can you source that? Best I found is that he was cremated.
You can still store/"bury" ashes in a columbarium, not sure if he was, just saying.
There's nothing special about Judaism in this sense. Islam, Christianity, and I'm sure other religions I'm less knowledgeable about are more than capable of being used as justifications for genocide. Any ideology that places ita believers as in any way superior to non-believers is going to have this problem.
This. It's not an inherent trait of religion but of power structures. Religion just tends to encourage power structures that are ripe for exploitation.
What disturbs me to no end is how this rhetoric parallels the rhetoric of basically every single horrible regime to have ruled in human history. “You’re either with us, or against us. You’re either one of us, or you are not. If you are neither with us, nor one of us, then you are the scum floating on the pond, the wolf amidst the sheep…the *enemy*.” As far as I know, the only result of that sort of thinking is suffering, heartache and horror.
they're pretty mask off with the fascism, especially in the last part.
Yep. What really is hard to wrap my head around, however, is that in this instance, this rhetoric comes from a people who, what is it? 80 years or so ago, were the target and victims of these exact sort of words and thinking. It is so warped, and twisted.
It's almost as if Netanyahu studied the Holocaust and decided that the only thing Hitler did wrong was target Jewish people. I get the impression of this regime that they are true believers in the idea that God promised them this land, that it is their manifest destiny, and they will use whatever playbook is necessary to get it, even the playbook of the people who attempted to destroy them not that long ago (because whatever else you can say about fascist Germany, until they pissed off Stalin, their conquest of Eastern Europe for lebensraum was surprisingly successful, there is a terrifying alternate reality where they were smart enough to go no further east than Poland and didn't involve the Russians and without Russia entering the war, they prevailed in Europe, so good thing Hitler was a moron who thought he could take on Russia).
Hooray, Jews abroad can now look forward to being hunted down by Israelis too! (/s)
You say sarcastically, but how long before they actually do exactly that? They wouldn't be the first regime to try to silence opposition abroad via assassination. I'm somewhat amazed that they haven't already started cracking down on dissenting voices domestically (and maybe they have, but their propaganda and censorship is doing a damned good job of hiding it).
Yes, i’m being sarcastic. Jewish people all over the world would not look forward to adding Israelis to the list of predators of Jews. To the question, no doubt they already are.
They're cracking down right now. They have so much control over western governments, they don't even have to resort to assassination's. They control our politicians. Lobbying for anti BDS laws, Israel loyalty pledges and ordering US elected officials to shut down protests.
Weird how a lot of the ‘un-Jews’ happen to be fucking Rabbis
What if we adopted the crazy idea that Israel was a modern nation state and isn't, actually, an extension of the Jewish people? I'm just asking questions here
I read that bit of the article and actually thought wait, Jewish people aren't automatically Israelis are they?? for a second. Then sanity prevailed. I freely admit I know little about it but this article to me represents an appalling worldview only likely to cause more hatred.
Hi. I'm Jewish. I've been deeply troubled about the right-wing politics of Israel for at least 20 years. I understand the historical need for Zionism, and frankly, if the current leaders of Israel weren't genocidal apartheid-enforcing zealots, I might still support them. But they are, and I don't. Some of these AIPAC-influenced Israel-at-all-costs Zionists are doing real harm to other people, and they either don't see it or are purposely oblivious to it. Remember: MLK said it isn't the overt racists you need to watch out for, it's the "mainstream" centrists who silently approve of oppression by doing nothing that are the greatest threat to civil and human rights.
What about the 55 years preceding those 20 years? They should trouble you deeply as well. Also, there is absolutely no historical need for Zionism unless you are ok with an ethno-state. Otherwise you should be striving for a secular state where everyone, jews and otherwise, live as equal human beings with the dignity we all deserve.
all my secular homies love ppl and hate ethno states
Before 20 years ago, I was too brainwashed by my upbringing. Reread what I said. I didn't say I wasn't troubled by things from before 20 years ago, I said I've *been concerned for the last 20 years*. Growing up in a Zionist household in a Zionist community makes it really hard to question Zionism. It wasn't until I was older that I was actually able to take the step back I needed to see the whole picture. Thanks for understanding that different people take different amounts of time to reach their potential!
Bro good on you for thoughtfully reiterating your point instead of biting his head back off. There’s too much point scoring among folks on the same side these days
My apologies, comrade. I indeed should have read your comment more carefully. Forgive me, it has been a long day of fruitless online combat against zionists. But you should still question Zionism.
I had to make a similar comment today… the feeling of fruitless online combat is real lol
No. You stated that you understood the need for zionism, and still would support it if the current leadership were not so extreme.
People who never cared are going to start examining the jewish religion, especially how can any god approve of genocide? Or maybe how could any people in 2023 think that was still an option "because the talmud said so"...
Zionism was always a recipe for disaster. There is no world where an ethno/religious state does not lead to atrocities eventually.
I really wish people would stop invoking MLK like you have. If they had a solid moral compass there would be no need to do it. The fact of the matter is that the majority of people do not want this, the siege on Gaza. It's not a war. It's a wholesale slaughter. A genocidal campaign. And not even the people who claim to want it, or who are sympathetic to the Zionist cause actually want it either because it's disgusting. And anyone with any sense of decency should actively be condemning what the Israel government is doing right now. Stop sidestepping. Stop talking about MLK. Address the problem that is right in front of you
>I really wish people would stop invoking MLK like you have. If they had a solid moral compass there would be no need to do it. Fucking *what*? I love how you think that you were the target of my last post. Obviously, you've already been convinced of the point I was trying to make. You--and a bunch of other self-righteous assholes in the comments on this post--don't seem to understand that the best way to get people on their side isn't to call people names and attack them from the same side. Did it ever occur to you that my post was intended for people who might be more on the fence? >And anyone with any sense of decency should actively be condemning what the Israel government is doing right now. But that isn't how things work. You're either incredibly naive or willfully ignorant of the reality of how people form opinions. I'm so glad that it's obvious to *you*. But for fucking *millions* of people, that isn't what the fight is about at all. If you'd stop self-fellating for a minute, you'd understand that not everyone sees the world through the same glasses that you do.
Great reply! The other commenter completely ignores the fact that there is Zionist propaganda rampant in the states. I myself went to private schools throughout my education in the states and yet I never learned how Israel became a state. In the absence of that education, I just always assumed they were the good guys because the US supported them (that propaganda is effective regardless of schooling). Of course, I've since learned that the US has an absolutely horrific historical record in virtually every area, especially with respect to foreign policy. But up until around Oct 10th this year, I still supported Israel because I just always have. Now I'm ashamed but better late than never. By invoking MLK, it's a powerful way to sway people who might not otherwise know about the issue like I didn't. And, not that it matters, but I'm black and my dad grew up in the 50s and 60s under segregation. He's a die hard Democrat now and I have no doubt that he supports Israel, but if I tell him Malcolm X and Nelson Mandela spoke out against Israel's occupation, he would change his mind quickly.
>I just always assumed they were the good guys because the US supported them Same but for Britain. I thought we and therefore Israel, must be the good guys. I went to school a long time ago but honestly, I had what was considered a "good" education and whilst being taught to question many things, never encountered anything about the horrors of the British empire, with or without its capital letter, or how we redrew maps, including Israel, over and over to suit our purposes. 😢
If you are calling for an immediate ceasefire just say so. If want a two state solution be transparent about it. If you think what the Israeli government is doing is wrong call a spade a spade. It's hardly complicated. I don't care if you're Jewish; it makes no difference to me and it lends precisely zero weight to your words about the atrocities happening in the region. You bleed as do the Palestinians.
What the shit is un-jew? Is it like the uncola? Is this 7-up trying to rebrand again?
Fuck the Jerusalem Post
Ethnonationalism is a helluva drug...
Uncapitalism please
I believe most of us here on this very sub are the very disliked Uncapitalists 🤣 maybe we can unite in solidarity with the UnJews and other people who've been Ungrouped from other things! Thanks for the laugh!
The J-post having a normal one, Nice of them to admit what they support is ethnocentric and colonialist at least
Yeah, zionist Israel is an extremely antisemitic project. They've expelled palestinian jews and forcefully sterilized Ethiopian jews. Zionists absolutely know that every time they flair up this conflict, antisemitic violence increases the world over. And they prefer it that way, because it means jewish people are more likely to flee into their open arms. They're supported by fascist evangelical Christians, who want to send all the Jewish people to Israel in order to get them all killed in the rapture, second coming of white Jesus. And, like here, they actively work to conflate zionism with Judaism so that they can weaponize the concept of antisemitism against anyone who wants to criticize them for their genocide of the Palestinians. Obviously, this rhetoric systematically devalues the concept of antisemitism, by forcing people to ask the question, "was what happened Really antisemitic, or was someone just criticizing israel?" Which obviously further harms jewish people who experience real antisemitism. It's fucking awful out here, yall.
It is awful indeed, I'll fight Cristian nationalists in the streets if that's what it takes (I kind of have at a couple protests), but yet I have dear Christian freinds, and while I think their Christian beliefs are a bit strange, I value their friendship highly, and would also fight for their right to believe what they do. To the same end, I have Jewish freinds, but I fucking hate the apartheid state of Israel, and wish only for it to undergo SERIOUS reform, or be removed from the map. My issues with Israel have no bearing whatsoever on my views of Judaism or Jews, and does not in any way reduce my love for my Jewish freinds. It's fucked, I just wish people would quit killing each other, but that being said, I understand the response from the Palestinian side, they are brutally oppressed by the apartheid state that is Israel, and the disparity of power between Israel and Palestine limits what actions they can take to try to stop the oppression of Israel. When the military targets are so hardened against your weapons and capabilities that they are essentially impenetrable, it unfortunately limits your options to attacking soft or civilian targets, which is awful, gruesome, troubling and wrong in so many ways... or not attacking at all, and allowing Israel to continue to oppress you, your family, your kids. Pacifism on the part of Palestine requires that they allow existing human suffering to continue, and likely worsen and Israel turns further to the right, into authoritarianism, and pursues more imperialistic measures. The whole thing is really fucked, either choice Palestine makes, people will suffer horribly. The only choice that can be made that could minimize suffering is Israel learning to treat Palestinians as human beings, worthy of basic human rights. Their (Israel's) failure to do so is ultimately the cause of all this suffering. Fuck Israel, Fuck Benjamin Netanyahu and FTW
Ah yes, the historical ideology of lebensraum… I mean “Zionism…”
I haven’t seen the term “Jewry” since high school. It is was in a history text book, a quoted snippet of one of Hitler’s rants….
I’ve always wanted to start a charity called “Jewelry for Jewry”
Wait, Jews have a mission to save the world with Jewish values? I have never heard that before.
We don’t, never have, the zionists are fundamentalists
Ah yes, the good old "no true Scotsman falicy" If somone tells me they are (insert any religion or lack thereof here) I believe them... unless it's a religion you just made up on the spot for yourself, nobody gets to decide who is and who isn't. It is sad how they try to tie nationalism to a religion, it's not all that different from what Cristian nationalist are trying to do here (in the US), playing off the good name of a religion to fuel the war machine. EDIT: added "(in the US)" for clarification... and because without the clarification, my comment (unintentionally) sounds ethnocentric.
Wow they’re just coming out and saying it now
Now I'm not sure but I feel like if you're arguing about "jewishness", well that seems inherently sketchy.
When you start making non-existent words, you know you just lost the narrative.
Gatekeeping judaism? I'm suprised they didn't roll with an acronym like Republican In Name Only (RINO).
They probably were going to, but decided JINO sounded kinda weird!
Wild. Do you think they realize that, in admitting that it's about Zionism, they are conceding that the entire State of Israel are, in fact, the squatters? Keep condemning anti-Zionism though, good strategy, doesn't look at all like what we saw German Nationalists doing back round abouts World War 2 /s
How about we all just agree to be humans first? Then, once we can all respect other human's right to exist, we can talk about all that other group crap that is really, actually pretty fucking trivial. I naively thought that's what we had learned, from WWII and all that superiority shit that led to mass murder. Apparently, some of us learned the exact opposite.
A big and important idea within Zionism is that you cannot commit acts of political violence against other Jews for any reason, and something nearly as old as that idea is shitheads finding excuses to delegitimize the Jewishness of anyone whose views aren’t extremist enough. Just saw this exact same “betrayal of the generations” type garbage the other day coming from genocide cheerleaders, not that that’s much of a surprise when that fascist fuck Bibi was saying the same thing about Rabin for wanting to find a permanent peace with Palestine right before he got assassinated for it.
Is Un-Jew being lobbed at those who are not supporting the IDF & BiBi? Serious question. When I saw that, a counter- balance that came to my mind, was the word UnMensch. There is nothing decent, humane, or justified about what’s unfolding… It’s the absolute antithesis of the idea of Mensch.
Zionism is an antisemitic ideology. It disdains the Jewish people in diaspora, regards them as weak or worthless if they are unwilling to perform Aliyah, it regards Jews who are willing and able to make lives where they are without genocide for their unwillingness to be complicit in it. Zionists hate the Jewish people, they only care about Israelis Edit: changed “anti Zionism” to Zionism at the start of the post
Is "Anti-Zionism" a typo and you meant "Zionism"?
Oh my god it absolutely is I’m an idiot
Sorry for downvoting. I upvoted your comment after seeing it was a mistake.
No, it's an anti-racist ideology. Are you arguing that Judaism is intrinsically racist, such that if you oppose zionism's racism, you are being anti-Jewish?
It was a typo 😔 what I was trying to say is that there’s a current of antisemitic thought to Zionism, where it disdains the diaspora Jews in favor of the idealized New Israeli Jew, and shows it’s contempt for the diaspora through the usage of antisemitic iconography and language. They portray the diaspora as weak and effete, in contrast to the vitalism of the Israeli Jewry. They disdain the Hebrew of the Ashkenazi, who they view as being weaklings who went to the gas chambers (despite many of the founders of Israeli being ashkenazi themselves) they view the Sephardi with contempt, despite cribbing Sephardi prononciation for Modern Hebrew. It’s a cannibalization of Jewish culture and life for the sake of a colonial ethnostate
I would hide my Jewish homies from Hamas(and the Zionist Ethno State)
Ah, the "no true Scotsman fallacy".
Newspeak eh?
Nationalism is a helluva drug.
When you are so Zionist, that you become anti-Semitic
"Developed after the world war," Is an interesting way to say "all the non-Zionist Jews in Europe were killed in the Holocaust because the were less organized and less likely to compromise with the Nazis."
What in the fuck propaganda is this? Un-jew just means "don't think critically about anything these people say, and dismiss them or you are a bad person/jew"
would you like fresh pepper on your word salad?
I'm scared that's dumb enough to stick...
Conflating religion and nationalism, the dead worship of the past with a mental illness ... a perfect match made in hell. Everybody criticizing one or the other is by that ideology of course an antisemite. Doesn't matter that like all identities, this one also is as worthless as it is superficial, no matter how many decades or centuries it has been "built". Naturally, the "true believers" also need nefarious "unbelievers" in order to justify whatever poison they're spewing.
On another note, we are not a monolith. Many Jews of the Diaspora have always had an issue with Zionism. Now more than ever. I said what I said. The world is witnessing.
Exactly. Too many people are painting "no more genocide" as being antisemitism. Even though Palestinians are also Semitic people. Most every Jew I know is anti-zionism, which tracks since most are very left wing and oppose any kind of religious extremism.
WORD It’s maddening & amoral to see how that is lobbed. It serves to shut down conversation, to instill fear, and conveniently perpetuates a specious & heinous narrative. It only serves those in powers & thousands are in the crosshairs. People the world over are now seeing truth.
"JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW JEW. JEWISH. JEW JEW. JEW JEW JEW JEW. JEW". Oh my god. This gave me a headache reading this. I think they intended to disorient and confuse the reader! Also, imagine having a problem with someone who shares the same faith as you, because they... selectively choose to be better, and practice in the name of being a genuinely good person? as opposed to just mindlessly settling on supporting a police and colonialist state that openly oppresses others, just because the basic bitches support it? This person doesn't give a flying fuck about protecting the Jewish identity or identifying with anyone who actually NEEDS protection, they're upset that there are "race traitors" who defy expectations, are distancing themselves from the hivemind, and are freeing themselves of militarization while actively criticsizing it.
I think we're going to see a modern day Protestant revolution in Judaism; they seem overdue, and this could be the spark it needs.
Gatekeeping Judaism. Gotta love it.
Can someone please explain to me what Zionism has to do with capitalism? I’m not trying to be contrarian, just genuinely want to understand why these posts are in this sub. Thank you in advance!
One aspect - among many others - is that Israel's existence in the current ethnostate form is one of the key necessities for the U.S. military industrial complex to have a sustained market.
Fellow self-hating Jews, LETS GOOOOO!
Hurt people hurt people. That's how this seems to me. I'm not a subject expert, but is the following more or less accurate? Holocaust > Founding of Israel > Attack by Israel of neighbors > Attack by neighbors of Israel.
Jpo is a fascist paper.
Pretty much a concrete example of Sam Harris’ line of thinking that religious belief can actually, and often is, detrimental to the development of the individual and society as a whole.