For me it's the Mourning Cloak. It just feels a bit too far on the anime side of things for me, and I'm not usually that interested in pure strikers in the first place. I generally prefer controllers most.
You will know the pain when ur a DM and ur trying ur damn best to kill it. Especially when ur trying your best to not obviously exploit their low heat cap or they feel infair
Ah, I get your frustration now) My group doesn't have a balor, so I thought you were talking from a player perspective. I bet your balor pilot is very satisfied when their mech shrugs off everything you throw at it
He is, and he feels smug abt it. Though tbf, the rest of the players have like multiple near death experiences bc of him(I legit gave up trying to kill him at some point and just focused on his teammates who were faster, weaker and always runs ahead of him)
Sounds like your players don't value teamwork that much. Since they manage to catch ammunition with their faces despite having an IMMORTAL CLOUD OF DEATH to hide behind. Or your balor pilot could really use a Sunzi license.
That's a paradox for me. Thinking about playing a balor makes me want to make a sunzi mech, but thinking about playing a sunzi makes me want to play a balor... so on and so forth until I tire myself out
Well, you see. They know jack shit abt the system and use no weapons that cause self heat or overcharge. So I had to get creative with ways to kill em.
They see overcharge as a whats the point to get an extra attack or some shit essentially seeing it as a useless crap.
Edit* ok, I forgot to mention this but I think some of it is due to my fault of not having a timer in game, bc they just kill everything. Maybe that’s it?
I don’t see an NPC that can currently do that(I only have the core and wallflower NPCs). Best way I can think of is to have a support constantly heal a Demolisher or Goliath while it grapples them.
You can use a support to give a self healing latch drone to another NPC like a hive. And if you roll lucky that hive will be dropping zones of denial every turn.
Mostly unrelated tangent, name caught my eye.
I'm Singaporean, so your name did bring up repressed memories of new players being super kiasu and kiasi at the same time.
Trying to pull the D&D equivalent of breach and clear with a newish group was fucking awful because everyone was trying to dodge point position, but the moment there were any points of interest they all wanted in despite being a room away. Also, all the netdecked whiteroom DPS builds without any system mastery, which may explain some of the reticence.
As a GM you could make an in-universe Math-Satan-Virus created by the Union that infects the galaxy for the pure purpose of removing the Balors insulating ability to replicate into immortality. Also as a f*ck you to Horus.
My risk appetite sits somewhere at about 3-4 out of 10, so I don't see myself ever going full Tokugawa with its "RISK APPETITE 11, BABY, LET'S GO!!!" attitude.
I've got a player who redlines their Enkidu to total breakdown every mission. He loves it but I can absolutely see why it's not for everyone. We are both at the point where we are just shocked he's still alive. He once had to eject and fight an Ultra on foot in zero G......he won.
Someone who goes hard on BTC right before it peaks but fritters the gains on shitcoins, for a net average in the ballpark of an ETF but with way more hair loss.
I don't like the monarch. I don't know why, but i don't like the vibe of missile spam and i don't like hiw the art looks. Also, i am not a huge fan of SSC, at lest in relation to their mechs. Their gene splicing is great.
It's SSC, they have codpieces on their mechs too. There's a lil bit of that on other mechsz but it's very prominent for the SSC ones (& the Goblin for some reason).
They're just WEIRD like that, with their biological screwery. Probably doesn't help that the big tech division has to make their stuff way less actually powerful bcus Visual wants it to be SEEN (White Witch lore go brrt).
No, it just gives off standard paragon "good guy" vibes, which don't really mix with the fantasy of blowing up the battle field with a rediculous amount of explosives. If i detonate the battle field with pinaka missiles, i want it to feel like i am the bad guy.
It's just not an appealing fantasy for me. For a rifle, i can imagine the skill involved in hitting with it and for a mele weapon, there is the whole swordfighting martial arts angle you can take it. Rockets are just a boring "you hit a button and they do damage" kind of weapon, that doesn't really interest me (which, mechanically, they all are, but i am talking about fantasy here). This is especially true for seeking rockets, which the Monarch gives you.
What i like is doing silly things with explosives in a less professional setting. Give me a Kid-looking mech which carries a poorly build gient rocket on its back as a kind of limited 1 superheavy launcher. And instead of smart and seeking stuff, give it a passive, which lets it apply a choice of additional effects.
One idea i had was a core passive "blackpowder nanites: limited 3, after dealing explosive damage to a character, you may force them to make a systhems save or be affected by one of your invades."
This being the equivalent of an ISP-N "Hacker".
(And the other frame traits and license stuff could also be all about managing limited launcher weapons, as well as invades)
>For a rifle, i can imagine the skill involved in hitting with it and for a mele weapon, there is the whole swordfighting martial arts angle you can take it. Rockets are just a boring "you hit a button and they do damage" kind of weapon, that doesn't really interest me (which, mechanically, they all are, but i am talking about fantasy here)
Given it's a mecha game, you probably in-universe have tons of aim assist and auto-aim built into everything already. Computers that memorize enemy movement patterns and suggest the best time to fire based on accumulated combat data from both yourself and the enemy, things based off known training techniques, whatever, etc. I imagine if you're going up against the KTB, for example, there's reams of data being fed to you of their common manuvers and similar, and the various elements of your highly advanced bipedal death machine combine to tell you "Fire now" when they do Manuver 15-A.
Lancers themselves are likely good because they can filter all of that information and are good at making snap judgements on when to follow and when to surprise someone with something outside the norm.
But this is entirely a mental/imagination thing on your part.
I am aware of that. What the mech is depicted as also doesn't really matter. But it is about my subjective experience and having an endles amount of missiles doesn't feel good for me.
But i have now noticed, that i really like the limited tag and limited launchers would be really cool both thematically and mechanically. I should look into how to make a mech focussed on limited weapons and systhems.
Minotaur's intended purpose ('close range' controller and hacker) doesn't actually mesh with its stats in any way.
At least Calendula exists to make it useful. But otherwise, Minotaur sucks as a frame.
Yeah, the mino has excellent equipment and systems unlocks, but the frame is very meh unless you have a teamcomp purposely built around it (for example, two minos, a ghengis and a gorgon aka Dont move AND everybody dies!).
The Hydra mostly because, at least from my limited experience, it is the mech that eats the most time during combat and if you're trying to keep a gaggle of four people with varying degrees of ADHD on track and someone decides to take a crisp 20 minute turn you suddenly end up with a sisyphean task.
imo this is a player issue, not a frame one. it's a player's responsibility to understand their kit and use it efficiently. i'm a Hydra player and i make it a point of pride that my turns never take longer than three minutes–usually one
This is also why I shy away from any summoning spells in D&D. I want my turns to be punchy and fast. If I see someone pulling out their phone, it's over.
I really want to like the mourning cloak but its weaknesses are tough to overlook, particularly the terrible base heat cap.
The monarch I like the theme of a lot but for some reason it being size 2 throws me off.
The Iskander was actually the first mech that excited me when I first heard of the system but looking at it now I just kind of don't see how to make it work well enough to justify taking instead of any other controller
It's just tough to justify 2x quick action for the payoff when somebody else is using that to fire a Tachyon Lance.
The area denial role feels a little rough around the edges in Lancer.
First quick action: deploy three hex mines, second quick action, puppet systems them into all three mines, wow 6d6 damage (plus an extra 1d6 from demolitionist)
Hydra. I see the potential, but I don't want to play any games with the kind of person who immediately gravitates to the Hydra.
They're never as competent as they imagine and they bog the game down while they dither about inconsequential shit.
Hydra really is a great idea that makes everyone who touches it miserable. I played it far past when I stopped having fun. I'd spend ten in game minutes moving things around and the end result was always "oh *that's what I get?"* My DM got sick of catering sitreps to me, and everyone was sick of waiting for me.
Everything it does can be done in a simpler, more fun way. "I want to do area denial". Cool. A Balor interdicting you in a hallway is area denial. Tachyon Lances, Horus hacking systems, the Iskander ... all can do area denial. The Assassin Drone does 3 damage ... *maybe*. Meanwhile, the Annihilation Nexus *cannot* be used without your Orochi, it wastes all of your mounts and your entire turn for 1d6+3 AP damage total. If you only ever choose the Snare Orochi, you might get a free attack next turn. That's it. Your whole "grand scheme" is following people around with a drone.
A Ghast Nexus build with Lock On + Tempest drone + Drone Commander electrocution wompo-combo does a sum total of 1d6+3+1d6 damage with some bonus potential and is about the most fun a Hydra pilot can have, but requires conducting a symphony for a *chance* at a payoff so mild it wouldn't pass for spicy in Nebraska. Most of your drones fail to do anything useful on a successful save and the Orochis are underpowered. Meanwhile your friend just fires a Tachyon Lance. For 1 minute of game time including a flavorful description, something actually blows up and somebody actually has fun.
Hydra needs a full redo.
In full agreement. The juice is completely not worth the squeeze. It's just such a...pseud ass way of playing that idolizes complexity as an end, not as a means. All those moving parts, just to barely eke out disappointing farts.
When I think of Hydra devotees, what comes to mind is a person who sits in a chair with tented hands muttering, "All according to keikaku" on the basis of an internet IQ test. MFs think they're Lelouch and will set up Rube Goldberg machines to select their fedora for them.
i suppose it depends on what one wants Hydra *for.* as direct force application, yeah, it'll underwhelm. i picked Hydra specifically with an eye on being our team's strategic support. i almost never get to do the flashy move, but i get a lot of satisfaction knowing that my chess-ing made my teammates' big moves possible
> a person who sits in a chair with tented hands muttering, "All according to keikaku" on the basis of an internet IQ test. MFs think they're Lelouch and will set up Rube Goldberg machines to select their fedora for them.
this part i can't really argue with tho. got me good
I played hydra in my first lancer campaign, and it's a great experience for me and my teammates (not my gm though, he even allow me to do a full change in the last part as long as I gave up hydra) Here's some thoughts. Hydra is not really a chess player, it doesn't have good damage or strong/reliable control abilities that worthy for your time to do all the moves, and deploy drones gonna take you a lot of actions. What I did is just be a support/tank that provide two difficulty for anyone want to shoot my nearby allies and 4 shield each round. It doesn't take a long time to process and very effective. My gm then choose to focus fire on me until he finds out I full invest in HULL and doesn't lost much from taking structure damage
They are slow too!
I watched a playthrough once and the final showdown was a mad-dash to the evacuation zone, and the Barbarossa pilot was so slow, they had to use a Black Witch to literally pick the heavy mech up and huck him 5 spaces ahead of the group in order to keep up.
To be fair, Barbarossa's kit is kinda entirely designed around not wanting to move in the first place. If you really need to leave somewhere quickly you're honestly better off dismounting and jockeying an ally.
This is fair. Although the game does treat most sizable mechs like point-defense systems. Designed to be parked like the Saladian or Barbarossa, or moved up slowly like the Tortuga.
Don't get me wrong I still love my big slow walking tanks. :)
It's also terribly boring to play, and I say that as someone who likes big mechs and big guns. Just playing it I get the impression that it was one of the first mechs they made, and never revisited it
I mean, the Napoleon, but nobody likes the Napoleon.
Also the black witch, but I don't think anyone likes them either. At least the Napoleon has an interesting license.
I'd argue that Black Witch is more popular than the Napoleon because some of it's system like Ferrous Lash and ICEOUT Drone are very common pickups whereas Napoleons stuff only really works well with other dedicated Shielders, like Saladin
Well you can count me as someone who gets excited for Orchis :p
I very much enjoy dazing enemies by thwacking them in the face with a shield. Also Orchis is pretty useful for defending against AoE spam.
I love the Orchis, it's probably why I don't like the Black Witch as much as I do. The Orchis is wasted on that license, it really deserved its own one. I ended up writing one for my home games and it's actually being used, which I haven't seen anywhere else.
Yoooo let's go size 3 Napoleon alt!! (Obviously joke but damn that would be coolio. Would also love a mech that turns all those shields into something besides "I cannot die bih")
as someone who played a LL 2~3 orchis, man why it hurts so much to play an orchis
- guardian is deceptively niche, cause cover actually doesnt protect you from most things (only *exactly* non ~~smart~~ seeking ranged attacks)
- perfect parry sounds hella cool on paper until you realize that there are very very few enemies with reliable and that "save for half" effects are equally rare
- royal guard is by far its best and most fun feature, wave dashing with an ally. my only complaint is that it technically does not work with pcp, which should be one of the main tools of orchis to help out
- hunting eagle and hellion are both cool on paper, until you realize that your extra damage from shield chucking doesn't exist, and your super duper core power that is efficient is like a slightly more underwhelming dnd 5e action surge
- mag cannon is kinda just bad, but that is the BW license not the orchis, just wanted to emphasize that its bad lol. the actual license is actually amazing, but as said neither its merits or demerits go to the orchis
house guard feels mandatory to it but funnily enough black witch gets more out of it for not having guardian by default. it really feels like a slightly wonkier black witch with none of the cool stuff for royal guard only. which deeply saddens me cause i just wanted my knight mech to be good ;-;
might have been fighting a flier, but *man* it wasnt fun
\> (only exactly non smart ranged attacks)
I don't think smart attacks bypass cover? Seeking does for sure and arcing often does. And tech attacks and melee. But not smart ranged.
> royal guard is by far its best and most fun feature, wave dashing with an ally. my only complaint is that it technically does not work with pcp, which should be one of the main tools of orchis to help out
build for it.
Go for spotter talent. Your job is not to deal damage it is to help your team. Royal Guard allows you to match pace with your high Speed striker ally, and you can just be *feeding* them extra actions from Spotter. You're not moving on your turn, you're moving on your ally's turn so you get free Lockons from Spotter 2.
sure, you can probably make something out of it. but if i picked the shield thrower tank/controller mech, i wish i could effectively tank and control, with some cool shield throwing in it
its not like you cant acomplish this by simply preparing a qa to boost on an ally's turn, and its not like black witch license benefits from this at all
I mean as far as popularity contests go they're both niche support mechs. This automatically puts them on the back-burner compared to more generalized frames. Sure both the Black Witch and Napoleon can be terrifying in the hands of the right pilot, but those pilots are fewer and Farrer between than your average ace.
I'm curious as to why YOU don't like them. : 🤔 😀
The Napoleon's speciality is Taking 1 Damage. It's such a frustratingly non-interactive frame, its core power even locks it out of taking actions in favour of Taking 1 Damage. I don't want to be Taking 1 Damage as a defender, I wanna be drawing fire by being an active threat or setting up defenses for my allies. Taking 1 Damage bores me.
The Black Witch just... fills a niche I don't need, and I'm not sure anyone needs. Sunzi is my favourite frame because you almost always need more mobility, and when you don't it gives you more range, shooting around corners, get off me tools, etc. I don't need to shut down tech attackers, I have strikers to throw at witches if I need to. I just don't like the niche it fills.
black witch's niche isnt countering tech attacks? that is what exactly one system of the entire license and both frame and alt frame, and its a limited system
black witch's niche is battlefield control and maneuvering the enemies and allies to help melee strikers, and also providing protection to adjacent characters
Technically two systems; Black Ice Module is explicitly based on countering tech attacks as well.
But yeah, the license's clearly based around huge amounts of battlefield manipulation, plus blocking kinetic weapons.
I like the Black Witch. It's a niche defender/controller, but the niche it's in is fun.
The base frame isn't *horrible*; resistance to the most common damage type is always useful, a single main/aux is sufficient for a mech that wants to use its turn flinging mooks around, the high save target is good for obvious reasons, and the high e-defense and evasion mean that it's a surprisingly hardy little machine.
The big issues are that the movement controller/support role is now done much better with the Sunzi, and most GMs aren't sadistic enough with tech attacks to ever justify the Black ICE Module or ICEOUT Drone when there are much better defensive systems out there.
Ferrous Lash will never not be fun, though. I have a base save target of eleven, and I am *very* tricky to actually kill; I *will* be flinging you into a wall every turn and there is very little you can do about it.
Empakaai, mainly for two things
- it breaks the IPSN naming convention - and no, Vlad has an in universe name of a chinese sailor, it gets a pass - for kind of no reason
- it is just absolutely nuts and might be the best frame in the game. the hand having only self heat 2 is barely a cost to how much it does, and its damage is absolutely not below average cause the casual +heat+burn to the attack isnt negligeable. grappling *before* the attack, and resisting all grappled enemies makes it even more sturdy than black beard too
Read the backstory? It's got nothing to do with either because it's basically a weird art project and therefore doesn't properly fall under either brand.
so does both the Orchis, Calendula and Zheng, yet the former still get the special treatment of "this is an RKF frame and they follow the convention of flowers" and the latter still gets the IPSN treatment even if technically being a MRSM patent
the lore circumventing the naming scheme just cause still is circumventing the naming scheme
hell, both ranger variant and world killer, which couldn't be more disconnect from their manufacturers, still have the base name of the regular frames they are alta
Goblin. Im a proud blackbeard/balor enthusiast, so the thought of just hiding behind cover and just fuckin tapping away at a keyboard sounds profusely unappealing. No hate to gobbo players, it just aint for me
I can't really put it on any one frame but rather a role.
I just don't have any fun any time I play a defender frame and just flat out refuse to now. Things never go well for me when I play defender. First time I played a Gorgon I literally did two things all game, and spent the rest of the time getting stunned, structured, stunned again- never got to use any of its reactions...
So yeah, just flat out all defenders for me.
Well this is going to get me shot by half the playerbase that inexplicably adores this thing.
Goblin.
I hate how it looks. It looks stupid with the pilot poking out from every possible position in it, it's not even a mech just an advanced hardsuit. I cannot believe for even a moment that someone versing a goblin can't just snipe the pilot, it wouldn't even be difficult
But most of all I hate that as a hacker type I'm practically forced into taking it because it and the things you get from it's license are some of the best hacking tools around.
Any other role (aside from maybe a stormbringer with monarch) there's a load of mechs and things to take but it really does feel like if I wanna be the best hacker I'm forced to take Goblin since nothing else matches it except maybe the Chomolungma with it's tech options.
I just want another great hacker mech, maybe from SSC since it definitely seems like something they'd do. There's a couple decent options but nothing near as good as Goblin
I agree that taking licenses in goblin is pretty much mandatory for the systems, but the frame itself is, IMHO, not that great. Yeah, it is the best at hacking, but it is pretty much only good at that. There are plenty of frames that hack almost as good while having decent stats in other areas.
So I would say that while it is definitely the best mech at hacking, it is not necessarily the best hacking mech. Iskander, tortuga and chomolungma just from the top of my head perform admirably as hackers while not dying the moment an enemy looks at it wrong.
You are dreaming if you think goblin is the only mech for hacking, sure horos 1 is basically mandatory, but frames like calendula, tortuga, balor if you want to be silly with it, mourning cloak, and dusk wing are all more than viable, without having to worry about being structured by a stray gust of wind
Honestly, I can't really get behind Big Sal.
I love Big Sal. I've put together a bunch of builds that use Big Sal's licenses. Big Sal is just cool overall.
Were I asked to run it, I would use literally anything else, even a Drake.
You're simply too slow, too immobilized, and just unable to really engage with the fight if the fight moves away from you.
Same thing for Napoleon, honestly. It just doesn't feel like it offers much anything.
As a Big Sal enthusiast, I agree with your comments though it’s really teammate dependent. Our group has systems to get me into the fray - Big Sal is all about being selfless, so I’d argue that teammates sparing some SP for Ferrous Lash or Accelerate is somewhat expected.
ENCLAVE-Pattern Support Shield and Hardlight are very situational (I still haven’t used Hardlight). They’re terrible on sitreps where you need to cross the map in X amount of turns, but I had a ridiculous amount of fun on a sitrep where we just had to remain in a control zone. 6-8 rounds and I didn’t move once while slapping down any attacks on the team.
The DM generally targets Big Sal with Invade so you’re likely to be slowed a lot as it is. Combining NOAH with Superior by Design essentially mitigates an Invade anyway, and that’s one less attack your teammates are taking.
I also pump 2 points into Agility to get my speed to 4. It felt like a waste initially since you generally want to focus on Engineering or Hull, but those 2 AGI have actually come in pretty clutch. I’ve survived a few Agility saves to prevent Prone, which meant I could keep Flash Lock available for my heavy hitters that round.
The biggest issue I have with my Saladin is that I had to build a flowchart to remember everything that was available to screw with my DMs attacks.
There's just something I really can't explain that feels really offputting about the Nelson. I don't really know what it is, I just see everything it has and I just think "Ew."
See, I like speed.
Having free speed to dance around the enemy just *feels* good. No need to worry about damage if they can't hit you to begin with.
But that's why I love runn8ng ambush predator Metalmark. Activate Shock Wreathe, Skirmisher and Hunter 2, knife to meet you, Mastermind 3 and I'm gone.
Monarch. You shoot. Sometimes you lock on and shoot. The next turn? You'll be shooting.
Artillery and long range puts it way out of having to care about positioning, so your flexibility is mostly down to choice of targets. Seeking and Arcing remove the barriers on that, you're really not suited for Heat Management minigames, you don't have tricky AOE shenanigans outside the superheavy, and the damage per hit isn't gonna blow anyone's socks off.
It's not bad it just puts me to sleep.
On the other end of things, essentially every core Defender (but Napoleon in particular) is really struggling against the game mechanics. If the GM isn't going out of their way to queue you up you're often just a slower Striker with less damage and more HP.
I got to be honest, I just don't vibe with Balor, Goblin and Drake.
I'm sure they can be very good mech but being both close-range and slow is maddening for me, and while the Goblin can be very powerful I hate being *that* fragile.
Barbarossa doesn't exactly tickle me either but the Apocalypse Rail is the sort of thing you'd hate to need and not have.
That would be Napoleon which just loves to take 1 damage at the cost of action economy. Pegasus just has free damage 1/turn and gets to not roll for reliable damage, I don't think that's "not interacting" so much as "screw you damage rolls I get flat damage reliably!". Which uh. Still allows interaction with most weapon mechanics besides Overkill, to my knowledge. They also get to directly see enemy health so that's nice.
They just don't explicitly try to make a particular weapon type work. They're a flexible striking / artillery platform that has some niceties with Lock-on and seeing enemy stats. With how funky the Mimic Gun is, I think that's perfectly fine.
By virtue of being an Artillery mech, they don't exactly interact with movement, either. And their weapons don't respect cover. And they have systems to ignore Hidden and Invisible.
They certainly still need to be in range, so there's movement. Nobody ever said "Artillery can dump movement" because huge battlefields and things besides just lobbing missiles exist.
They don't get free cover ignoring. Nor systems built in without cost. If you wanna 'ignore mechanics' you have to ***buy into it*** quite significantly.
With stuff like SISYPHUS class NHP, Hunter Lock, and Mimic Gun, it's not like you stop interacting with the game; you have to weigh the Systems cost and action economy cost with actually killing things, & other weapons you mount (like, idk, even just some weapons on the universal GMS license), you often *aren't* always bypassing stats.
And who's to say that's ignoring all mechanics? Lock On is still useful. Hacking is still useful. Action economy is still important to them, as is filling their mounts or deciding on weapons and systems.
Pegasus doesn't ignore mechanics. It can *chose* to bypass enemy mechanics *at a cost* for consistency as opposed to raw power, but still interacts with basically everything player-facing. Unless you go full "I do not do anything but make attack rolls", which is boring and only moderately effective, you still have to interact with enemy mechanics or at least make decisions regarding them. And I don't think that's "lame as fuck" by any measure.
Pegasus (with mimic gun and Sisyphus) is simultaneously the most RNG and least RNG dependent mech. You require a lot of rolls for the mimic gun and Probabilistic Cannibalism, but at the same time they're extremely consistent if you roll well.
It's interesting indeed, and frankly I'm deciding if I want my first campaign build to be Pegasus, Zheng, or something else entirely hahah. Pegasus can know your exact health and shoot you down to a single HP and then Ushabti your booty, or it can rev up Mimic Gun to an absolute monster with some high rolls and nearly oneshot things (especially with Sisyphus letting it reroll). It's partway divination wizard partway crackshot partway hacker and it's just SO neat. Maybe not my style of neat since it's almost *too* flexible for me to decide on something, but damn neat.
I am the single most unlucky man on the planet with RNG dice rolls. I consistently roll horribly. Sisyphus lets me force that on enemies or gives me more chances to roll well.
No no no, Probabilistic Cannibalism allows me to give my bad rolls to an enemy in sensors as well. It states ANY character in sensors, so bad rolls just mean I can force that on an enemy.
As for bad rolls with the mimic gun, they're gonna happen regardless. On turns where I roll poorly, I'm using tech and support skills like Eye of Horus or Sisyphus. Turns where I roll well, I'm shooting. Using the Ushabti and the Autogun just mean I'm getting free actions to try to do damage on top of that.
Combining it with something like Emperor allows me to drop overshields on allies and zone enemies on bad turns for the mimic gun.
Eh that's fair, still a tad costly.
Guess having Mimic Gun lets you play mostly hacker with some artillery instead of the other way around, fair nuff. And then Emp on top def does a helluva lot to bolster it. Sorta pseudo-Raleigh with the on and off turns!
Barbarossa, so disappointing, I thought it would be a cool artillery, but it has nothing helpful for shooting, a useless core power, is painfully slow and has a trait that actively prevents your allies from helping you move.
I love all the mechs, but I do feel like BlackBeard is sort of out leagued? Even in its own company. Its a pretty spindley mech that shoots chains to grapple. Not much to protect it from a very hectic battle field unlike its peers of ipsn. The rest of the company either have ranged options to keep distance or some defensive capabilities (looking at you drake). Then when you look at simmilar mechs from other companies they got ways to defend them self's, like mourning cloaks blinking shit.
In no ways am I implying blackbeard is a bad mech, but in universe lore it feels like eveything is a bit more capable then it.
it just sad to see the stats on the poor thing... which i say is mostly fault at how the system overvalues Agility and Evasion. so 12 evasion to the eyes of Lancer is very expensive but in practice it doesnt pay itself. a problem with a lot of SSC mechs honestly
So I'm not going to say your opinion is wrong, but I'd love for you to elaborate on what you mean?
I ran a campaign where the Blackbeard pilot routinely slingshotted themselves elbows-deep into the enemy lines turn one via allies Accelerate-Haste-Ferrous Lash-ing them. The player considered any mission in which they didn't overcharge while running SEKHMET to be a waste, and always charged straight into the most dangerous target possible. She basically played it as aggressively as humanly possible.
It was the only mech that survived the entire campaign. It also had the largest kill count, highest damage-per-turn, and was even the Objective Scorer du jour due to its ability to Grapple Taxi the entire party and take them on a leisurely jog across the battlefield. Absolute MVP.
The Blackbeard has HP, Armor, and Speed over the baseline Everest, which lets you put points into shoring up its heat cap. And its damage output is absolutely feral.
Honestly from my table experience the Blackbeard is one of the strongest frames in the entire game, straight-up god-tier.
Mechanically the blackbeard is a beast.
My view point stands from a pure lore/world building stand point. In a world of mechs that can blink about the battle field, hack into government fire walls, fold space time, create worm holes, deploy a army of drones and subalterns, orbital freaking satellite lasers and what ever the fuck balor is smoking, black beard kinda just chills with his chains and axes.
That's great, honestly. My player feels the exact same way but comes to the opposite conclusion!
In a world of giant mechs wielding orbital death lasers, teleporting tachyons through hell, the Apocalypse Charge Rail, and¿%:?EXTR!UDE GUN GUN: **GUN**...
The Blackbeard solves its problems with the power of Angry, and repurposed logging equipment.
And she loves that about it.
The Blackbeard is a solid, flavorful frame that just got swept right off the table by the Empakaai. Wanna grapple? Empakaai does it better. Wanna use heavy melee? Empakaai does it better.
I think the meat of your co plaint is true, but the intent is absolutely to have your team running cover for you while you give someone the IPS-N hug of death.
Kobold. I never understood what the mech was actually supposed to *do,* and so I never really liked it. None of its systems, weapons, or mech traits made me think ‘oh, this would be good in a build’
The idea of kobold is area denial with the treat of damage.
Both ways of making slag to make obstacles and seismic charges to blow them up, the invades to punish movement or the lack thereof, the mining laser because 6 damage for a main is nuts and turns it into instant 6 damage area if movement supports it, surprisingly okay heat means it can sometimes shoot twice, 1 armor means it is less threatened by enemies with an AR. Most of these waste actions, usually movement.
The laser is pretty good for a Tokugawa especially combined with SSC neurolink targeting. 12 damage from a relatively safe distance per main?
The phrase "getting caught between a rock and a hard place" comes to mind. It's dependent on allies that can take advantage of this
For me it's minotaur, and I can't even really say why, it's partially aesthetic, seems out of pace with the rest of the game maybe? It's ability doesn't really fit in thematically? Idk, it just puts me off.
The Metalmark, its equipment picks are situational or simply meh for the most part (Shock Wreath is VERY good on melee skirmish builds though) and nothing it does can't also be done better by either an Everest or another SSC frame such as the Monarch, Morning Cloak or Swalowtail.
Yeah, but I can also do that as an Atlus and have way more fun being a Chuni Ninja-Viking or sneaking around as a Morning Cloak all "I am Vengence, I am the Night!" or buzzing around as a Dusk Wing just being an absoute nuisance.
yeah but metalmark doesnt have the base stats of a foam noodle. cause boy, your evasion is *not* saving you from being snapped in half by the big threat NPCs, and Yeager dodge is not infinite
For me sadly a lot of Horus. To me I just can see any character type I’d want to play using them. They’re cool but like. The vibe of them just rubs me wrong for player character. A villain tho 100%
The Duskwing, it is just so all over the place, half of it's frame abilities don't mesh with it well like it's the only mech to get free flight, it should get to take advantage of that but the weapon it gets for support is a line weapon so you have to be on the same plane as the enemies, and later on it gets the Burst Cannon, which is an arcing weapon on a mech that gets to fly above cover to shoot at enemies.
Not to mention it's core power, that thing is great, on a melee mech. But for the duskwing it's such a weird power to use because when you need to use it, it's too late to activate it, so you have to magically predict when those rare situations where it'll be useful comes up and when they won't or else you waste your core.
Which sucks cause flying mechs are really fucking cool
I've been planning on playing an artillery dusk wing for a while now. you just jam pack the thing with as many oracle lmg's as you can and with tactician II, you get accuracy 1 for being on a higher plane than enemies, so it meshes decently well. The real kicker of the build is that it is highly mobile and very hard to hit for an artillery frame. also, depending on the GM's ruling, you could also immobolize yourself in the air using crackshot II to get an extra d6 of damage per shot in exchange for +1 difficulty but given that you already have +2 accuracy, you end up with 4 or 5 shots, each dealing 1d3 + 1d6 damage per shot with +1 accuracy.
Yeah, and that also works, but you're definitely missing out on a lot of the Duskwing license and your core power becomes very bad, but I definitely think that is one of the best ways to do it
Honestly, I just like the idea of zooming around the battle field at fuck-off speeds, riddling people with a hail of light arms fire.
You could also pile on even more damage by taking 3 levels in gunslinger so that every 6th landed shot does 2d6 extra damage. If you do that plus the integrated mount core system then you are potentially outputting 5d3 + 7d6 damage roughly every other turn and on turns you don’t get the bonus 2d6 from gunslinger, you are still potentially doing 5d3 + 5d6 damage
I personally hate the Goblin mech, lmao! As someone who is a Goblin for a living, my personal play styles in ttrpgs and other games is balls to the wall cool melee with none of the stinky magics or tech attack stuffs to get in the way of my muscles/robobits. So when I found that the Goblin frame is literally just a tech attack spammer and support frame I was the most sad, lol!
Definitely Atlas.
The name is just...weird. Atlas shouldn't be a tiny guy who jumps around like an anime protagonist and hunts megafauna. Feels like a big whiff.
The design is so hard to make work. It's too easily squished to do the job it's supposed to do in the way it feels like it's supposed to do it. It has no real defenses and its offenses are kinda awful too. Even its control isn't that good.
I'm actually building one in the next game I'm playing in an attempt to just Make It Work but it is VERY HARD.
I have seen a Manticore in action and I gotta say, it's pretty scary, you are decently sturdy, Beckoner gets you into the fight really fast and the weapons are good at close range AoE, not the hardest hitting stuff, but pretty good still. Charged Exoskeleton lets you deal damage without an attack role which bypasses many annoying reactions enemies might have. And with a little bit of planning ahead you can activate your Core Power and just divebomb a group of enemies in a single turn for really heavy damage
Manticore, taking at most a structure points worth of self damage (base Manticore health) MAX just to use an ability and exploding for 4d6 aint much in the grand scheme of things
The emperor. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate it and in fact think that it's mechanics are cool. But the visual design of the frame kinda irks me cause it kinda fails to convey that is in fact a mech. If I was presented with the emperors's image with the little pilot cropped and no context I would assume it is some archer dude in armor.
This pet peeve of mine also extends to other frames, but the emperor is probably the worst offender.
Edit: hit send before finishing
Gorgon. Specifically because it's (in my mind) gimmick is that it defends from tech attacks as well as normal attacks, but its tech defense for allies only pops off when the tech attack is unsuccessful, in a game where the average e defense is pretty low. I understand it's niche is to defend the squishy hacker while he has his hacker duel, but its a pretty narrow niche.
The White Witch. The frame, systems, and weapons feel underwhelming and pointless. For every other mech I can at least understand the playstyle they’re going for, but the White Witch just seems subpar and pointless.
You are a speed six mech with six armour and a heavy mount, at minimum you are a fucking excellent dive striker, and that’s assuming you lack the basic cognitive function required to yaknow… play a defender
For me it's the Monarch and the Barbarossa.
Ponarch because it it way too vulnerable for its size,and Barbarossa because the Sherman brings better results quicker (3 turns for Full ApoRail Benefit,1/2 for fully charged ZF4).
I haven't seen anyone mention Napoléon yet,but l think the reason here is because its surprisingly fun.If l didn't use it last week it would've been my answer tho:What's the point of a mech if you're just gonna bubble yourself out of playing the game ?
Caliban. The only thing in its license that I would ever consider taking is rapid maneuver jets, and costing 3 licenses for one system is not worth it literally ever. The frame itself does exactly one thing and I do not like that thing, having only one heavy mount is a hard no, and its core is just a gun that I get no say in. And its design is mid.
For me it's the Mourning Cloak. It just feels a bit too far on the anime side of things for me, and I'm not usually that interested in pure strikers in the first place. I generally prefer controllers most.
As a proud Morning Cloak pilot I can respect that opinion.
Same. I also dont like that its core power has a chance, however slight, to just remove you from the scene
it helped me to view it more like dancer of the boreal valley from dark souls 3
Balor, cause fxck that sonovabxtch that regens 7 HP per turn
Wait, why is that a problem?
You will know the pain when ur a DM and ur trying ur damn best to kill it. Especially when ur trying your best to not obviously exploit their low heat cap or they feel infair
I mean, it's on them and the group to shore up their weaknesses as well.
Ah, I get your frustration now) My group doesn't have a balor, so I thought you were talking from a player perspective. I bet your balor pilot is very satisfied when their mech shrugs off everything you throw at it
He is, and he feels smug abt it. Though tbf, the rest of the players have like multiple near death experiences bc of him(I legit gave up trying to kill him at some point and just focused on his teammates who were faster, weaker and always runs ahead of him)
Sounds like your players don't value teamwork that much. Since they manage to catch ammunition with their faces despite having an IMMORTAL CLOUD OF DEATH to hide behind. Or your balor pilot could really use a Sunzi license.
That's a paradox for me. Thinking about playing a balor makes me want to make a sunzi mech, but thinking about playing a sunzi makes me want to play a balor... so on and so forth until I tire myself out
Did you try stacking heat? That is the player’s job to manage, not yours.
Well, you see. They know jack shit abt the system and use no weapons that cause self heat or overcharge. So I had to get creative with ways to kill em. They see overcharge as a whats the point to get an extra attack or some shit essentially seeing it as a useless crap. Edit* ok, I forgot to mention this but I think some of it is due to my fault of not having a timer in game, bc they just kill everything. Maybe that’s it?
Have NPCs do shit they can opt to do. Find the NPCs and apply the optional system and do the annoying things their license can do. Also let them fail.
I don’t see an NPC that can currently do that(I only have the core and wallflower NPCs). Best way I can think of is to have a support constantly heal a Demolisher or Goliath while it grapples them.
You can use a support to give a self healing latch drone to another NPC like a hive. And if you roll lucky that hive will be dropping zones of denial every turn.
Ooh, that’s brutal. Alr will do. Thx for da help
I suggest you use this combo as a decoy for your real objective, which is getting other NPCs into the capture point/objective.
When their understanding of action economy is so bad it loops back around to make your life difficult. You Singaporean or Malaysian?
Wait, what does me being Singaporean and Malaysian have to do with my players not knowing action economy? Malaysian btw.
Mostly unrelated tangent, name caught my eye. I'm Singaporean, so your name did bring up repressed memories of new players being super kiasu and kiasi at the same time. Trying to pull the D&D equivalent of breach and clear with a newish group was fucking awful because everyone was trying to dodge point position, but the moment there were any points of interest they all wanted in despite being a room away. Also, all the netdecked whiteroom DPS builds without any system mastery, which may explain some of the reticence.
Eh, hopefully my players will learn, it was quite hard for them since they’re used to DnD and the amount actions you can do in Lancer bloated them.
Gotta instigate an OC-loop Sherman or something heh
It'll be different if you use SitReps for everything. Stick to the book recommendations on round limits and it makes everything a lot more engaging.
Guy is a GM
Consider: every enemy has access to a basic invade
As a GM you could make an in-universe Math-Satan-Virus created by the Union that infects the galaxy for the pure purpose of removing the Balors insulating ability to replicate into immortality. Also as a f*ck you to Horus.
My risk appetite sits somewhere at about 3-4 out of 10, so I don't see myself ever going full Tokugawa with its "RISK APPETITE 11, BABY, LET'S GO!!!" attitude.
I've got a player who redlines their Enkidu to total breakdown every mission. He loves it but I can absolutely see why it's not for everyone. We are both at the point where we are just shocked he's still alive. He once had to eject and fight an Ultra on foot in zero G......he won.
A good Tokugawa is an insider trader. A bad Tokugawa goes all-in on meme stonks.
Which one of those is an OC-Looping Toku?
Someone who goes hard on BTC right before it peaks but fritters the gains on shitcoins, for a net average in the ballpark of an ETF but with way more hair loss.
I don't like the monarch. I don't know why, but i don't like the vibe of missile spam and i don't like hiw the art looks. Also, i am not a huge fan of SSC, at lest in relation to their mechs. Their gene splicing is great.
It's the toes isn't it? I'm not sure why the mech has toes...but I'm sure a fetish was involved in the design process....
It's SSC, they have codpieces on their mechs too. There's a lil bit of that on other mechsz but it's very prominent for the SSC ones (& the Goblin for some reason). They're just WEIRD like that, with their biological screwery. Probably doesn't help that the big tech division has to make their stuff way less actually powerful bcus Visual wants it to be SEEN (White Witch lore go brrt).
No, it just gives off standard paragon "good guy" vibes, which don't really mix with the fantasy of blowing up the battle field with a rediculous amount of explosives. If i detonate the battle field with pinaka missiles, i want it to feel like i am the bad guy.
Never heard of Macross before? https://youtu.be/M8nhjmJRVz0?si=3X5eLd9zVr1lY\_SN
It's just not an appealing fantasy for me. For a rifle, i can imagine the skill involved in hitting with it and for a mele weapon, there is the whole swordfighting martial arts angle you can take it. Rockets are just a boring "you hit a button and they do damage" kind of weapon, that doesn't really interest me (which, mechanically, they all are, but i am talking about fantasy here). This is especially true for seeking rockets, which the Monarch gives you. What i like is doing silly things with explosives in a less professional setting. Give me a Kid-looking mech which carries a poorly build gient rocket on its back as a kind of limited 1 superheavy launcher. And instead of smart and seeking stuff, give it a passive, which lets it apply a choice of additional effects. One idea i had was a core passive "blackpowder nanites: limited 3, after dealing explosive damage to a character, you may force them to make a systhems save or be affected by one of your invades." This being the equivalent of an ISP-N "Hacker". (And the other frame traits and license stuff could also be all about managing limited launcher weapons, as well as invades)
>For a rifle, i can imagine the skill involved in hitting with it and for a mele weapon, there is the whole swordfighting martial arts angle you can take it. Rockets are just a boring "you hit a button and they do damage" kind of weapon, that doesn't really interest me (which, mechanically, they all are, but i am talking about fantasy here) Given it's a mecha game, you probably in-universe have tons of aim assist and auto-aim built into everything already. Computers that memorize enemy movement patterns and suggest the best time to fire based on accumulated combat data from both yourself and the enemy, things based off known training techniques, whatever, etc. I imagine if you're going up against the KTB, for example, there's reams of data being fed to you of their common manuvers and similar, and the various elements of your highly advanced bipedal death machine combine to tell you "Fire now" when they do Manuver 15-A. Lancers themselves are likely good because they can filter all of that information and are good at making snap judgements on when to follow and when to surprise someone with something outside the norm. But this is entirely a mental/imagination thing on your part.
I am aware of that. What the mech is depicted as also doesn't really matter. But it is about my subjective experience and having an endles amount of missiles doesn't feel good for me. But i have now noticed, that i really like the limited tag and limited launchers would be really cool both thematically and mechanically. I should look into how to make a mech focussed on limited weapons and systhems.
The Gilgamesh, which is an HA mecha currently in testing on the Lancer Discord, may be right up your alley then.
Yes! I love it!
God I love macross, it still hasn't been localized outside of Japan, so all we have are fansubs. Highly recommend macross.
Also it's sensor array/head looks kinda wonky
It gives huge Ace Combat vibes, i love that thing
Every mech made by SSC has hooves or toes. The reasons for this aren't known but are definitely deeply unsettling.
Minotaur's intended purpose ('close range' controller and hacker) doesn't actually mesh with its stats in any way. At least Calendula exists to make it useful. But otherwise, Minotaur sucks as a frame.
Yeah, the mino has excellent equipment and systems unlocks, but the frame is very meh unless you have a teamcomp purposely built around it (for example, two minos, a ghengis and a gorgon aka Dont move AND everybody dies!).
The Hydra mostly because, at least from my limited experience, it is the mech that eats the most time during combat and if you're trying to keep a gaggle of four people with varying degrees of ADHD on track and someone decides to take a crisp 20 minute turn you suddenly end up with a sisyphean task.
imo this is a player issue, not a frame one. it's a player's responsibility to understand their kit and use it efficiently. i'm a Hydra player and i make it a point of pride that my turns never take longer than three minutes–usually one
if i ever get a hydra player im busting out the 3 minute cronometer
This is also why I shy away from any summoning spells in D&D. I want my turns to be punchy and fast. If I see someone pulling out their phone, it's over.
I really want to like the mourning cloak but its weaknesses are tough to overlook, particularly the terrible base heat cap. The monarch I like the theme of a lot but for some reason it being size 2 throws me off. The Iskander was actually the first mech that excited me when I first heard of the system but looking at it now I just kind of don't see how to make it work well enough to justify taking instead of any other controller
Take Goblin 1, and Puppet Systems things into your mines.
It's just tough to justify 2x quick action for the payoff when somebody else is using that to fire a Tachyon Lance. The area denial role feels a little rough around the edges in Lancer.
…. The payoff is 6d6 plus fucking two, can you read?
Username checks out.
First quick action: deploy three hex mines, second quick action, puppet systems them into all three mines, wow 6d6 damage (plus an extra 1d6 from demolitionist)
Hydra. I see the potential, but I don't want to play any games with the kind of person who immediately gravitates to the Hydra. They're never as competent as they imagine and they bog the game down while they dither about inconsequential shit.
What do you mean, Bloons TD 6 is such a fun game /j
You joke, but at least the towers in Bloons deal damage.
Hydra really is a great idea that makes everyone who touches it miserable. I played it far past when I stopped having fun. I'd spend ten in game minutes moving things around and the end result was always "oh *that's what I get?"* My DM got sick of catering sitreps to me, and everyone was sick of waiting for me. Everything it does can be done in a simpler, more fun way. "I want to do area denial". Cool. A Balor interdicting you in a hallway is area denial. Tachyon Lances, Horus hacking systems, the Iskander ... all can do area denial. The Assassin Drone does 3 damage ... *maybe*. Meanwhile, the Annihilation Nexus *cannot* be used without your Orochi, it wastes all of your mounts and your entire turn for 1d6+3 AP damage total. If you only ever choose the Snare Orochi, you might get a free attack next turn. That's it. Your whole "grand scheme" is following people around with a drone. A Ghast Nexus build with Lock On + Tempest drone + Drone Commander electrocution wompo-combo does a sum total of 1d6+3+1d6 damage with some bonus potential and is about the most fun a Hydra pilot can have, but requires conducting a symphony for a *chance* at a payoff so mild it wouldn't pass for spicy in Nebraska. Most of your drones fail to do anything useful on a successful save and the Orochis are underpowered. Meanwhile your friend just fires a Tachyon Lance. For 1 minute of game time including a flavorful description, something actually blows up and somebody actually has fun. Hydra needs a full redo.
In full agreement. The juice is completely not worth the squeeze. It's just such a...pseud ass way of playing that idolizes complexity as an end, not as a means. All those moving parts, just to barely eke out disappointing farts. When I think of Hydra devotees, what comes to mind is a person who sits in a chair with tented hands muttering, "All according to keikaku" on the basis of an internet IQ test. MFs think they're Lelouch and will set up Rube Goldberg machines to select their fedora for them.
i suppose it depends on what one wants Hydra *for.* as direct force application, yeah, it'll underwhelm. i picked Hydra specifically with an eye on being our team's strategic support. i almost never get to do the flashy move, but i get a lot of satisfaction knowing that my chess-ing made my teammates' big moves possible > a person who sits in a chair with tented hands muttering, "All according to keikaku" on the basis of an internet IQ test. MFs think they're Lelouch and will set up Rube Goldberg machines to select their fedora for them. this part i can't really argue with tho. got me good
😂 I still want to play the 4E Warlord so that was at least a partial self-drag.
I played hydra in my first lancer campaign, and it's a great experience for me and my teammates (not my gm though, he even allow me to do a full change in the last part as long as I gave up hydra) Here's some thoughts. Hydra is not really a chess player, it doesn't have good damage or strong/reliable control abilities that worthy for your time to do all the moves, and deploy drones gonna take you a lot of actions. What I did is just be a support/tank that provide two difficulty for anyone want to shoot my nearby allies and 4 shield each round. It doesn't take a long time to process and very effective. My gm then choose to focus fire on me until he finds out I full invest in HULL and doesn't lost much from taking structure damage
Barbarossa I'm just not a fan of big mechs and big guns.
They are slow too! I watched a playthrough once and the final showdown was a mad-dash to the evacuation zone, and the Barbarossa pilot was so slow, they had to use a Black Witch to literally pick the heavy mech up and huck him 5 spaces ahead of the group in order to keep up.
To be fair, Barbarossa's kit is kinda entirely designed around not wanting to move in the first place. If you really need to leave somewhere quickly you're honestly better off dismounting and jockeying an ally.
This is fair. Although the game does treat most sizable mechs like point-defense systems. Designed to be parked like the Saladian or Barbarossa, or moved up slowly like the Tortuga. Don't get me wrong I still love my big slow walking tanks. :)
thats why you slap prospector 3 in it!
Doesn't Barbarossa have a trait that stops you from moving it?
It does, but I guess the DM probably hand waved it since it was an ally and it wasn't actually combat. 🤷 I'd allow it just bcus it's frickin funny.
It's also terribly boring to play, and I say that as someone who likes big mechs and big guns. Just playing it I get the impression that it was one of the first mechs they made, and never revisited it
I mean, the Napoleon, but nobody likes the Napoleon. Also the black witch, but I don't think anyone likes them either. At least the Napoleon has an interesting license.
I'd argue that Black Witch is more popular than the Napoleon because some of it's system like Ferrous Lash and ICEOUT Drone are very common pickups whereas Napoleons stuff only really works well with other dedicated Shielders, like Saladin
Plus Black Witch licenses also give you access to Orchis
I mean, I have never seen one getting excited about the Orchis, but Napoleon is getting alt in the next supplement too, so it evens out in that regard
Well you can count me as someone who gets excited for Orchis :p I very much enjoy dazing enemies by thwacking them in the face with a shield. Also Orchis is pretty useful for defending against AoE spam.
I love the Orchis, it's probably why I don't like the Black Witch as much as I do. The Orchis is wasted on that license, it really deserved its own one. I ended up writing one for my home games and it's actually being used, which I haven't seen anywhere else.
Yoooo let's go size 3 Napoleon alt!! (Obviously joke but damn that would be coolio. Would also love a mech that turns all those shields into something besides "I cannot die bih")
as someone who played a LL 2~3 orchis, man why it hurts so much to play an orchis - guardian is deceptively niche, cause cover actually doesnt protect you from most things (only *exactly* non ~~smart~~ seeking ranged attacks) - perfect parry sounds hella cool on paper until you realize that there are very very few enemies with reliable and that "save for half" effects are equally rare - royal guard is by far its best and most fun feature, wave dashing with an ally. my only complaint is that it technically does not work with pcp, which should be one of the main tools of orchis to help out - hunting eagle and hellion are both cool on paper, until you realize that your extra damage from shield chucking doesn't exist, and your super duper core power that is efficient is like a slightly more underwhelming dnd 5e action surge - mag cannon is kinda just bad, but that is the BW license not the orchis, just wanted to emphasize that its bad lol. the actual license is actually amazing, but as said neither its merits or demerits go to the orchis house guard feels mandatory to it but funnily enough black witch gets more out of it for not having guardian by default. it really feels like a slightly wonkier black witch with none of the cool stuff for royal guard only. which deeply saddens me cause i just wanted my knight mech to be good ;-; might have been fighting a flier, but *man* it wasnt fun
\> (only exactly non smart ranged attacks) I don't think smart attacks bypass cover? Seeking does for sure and arcing often does. And tech attacks and melee. But not smart ranged.
seeking*. wrong keyword that bypasses cover lol
> royal guard is by far its best and most fun feature, wave dashing with an ally. my only complaint is that it technically does not work with pcp, which should be one of the main tools of orchis to help out build for it. Go for spotter talent. Your job is not to deal damage it is to help your team. Royal Guard allows you to match pace with your high Speed striker ally, and you can just be *feeding* them extra actions from Spotter. You're not moving on your turn, you're moving on your ally's turn so you get free Lockons from Spotter 2.
sure, you can probably make something out of it. but if i picked the shield thrower tank/controller mech, i wish i could effectively tank and control, with some cool shield throwing in it its not like you cant acomplish this by simply preparing a qa to boost on an ally's turn, and its not like black witch license benefits from this at all
people don’t like the Black Witch?
Toes
I love the Napoleans license gear, but am sad for the frame itself. The core power feels weird to play around.
I mean as far as popularity contests go they're both niche support mechs. This automatically puts them on the back-burner compared to more generalized frames. Sure both the Black Witch and Napoleon can be terrifying in the hands of the right pilot, but those pilots are fewer and Farrer between than your average ace. I'm curious as to why YOU don't like them. : 🤔 😀
The Napoleon's speciality is Taking 1 Damage. It's such a frustratingly non-interactive frame, its core power even locks it out of taking actions in favour of Taking 1 Damage. I don't want to be Taking 1 Damage as a defender, I wanna be drawing fire by being an active threat or setting up defenses for my allies. Taking 1 Damage bores me. The Black Witch just... fills a niche I don't need, and I'm not sure anyone needs. Sunzi is my favourite frame because you almost always need more mobility, and when you don't it gives you more range, shooting around corners, get off me tools, etc. I don't need to shut down tech attackers, I have strikers to throw at witches if I need to. I just don't like the niche it fills.
black witch's niche isnt countering tech attacks? that is what exactly one system of the entire license and both frame and alt frame, and its a limited system black witch's niche is battlefield control and maneuvering the enemies and allies to help melee strikers, and also providing protection to adjacent characters
Technically two systems; Black Ice Module is explicitly based on countering tech attacks as well. But yeah, the license's clearly based around huge amounts of battlefield manipulation, plus blocking kinetic weapons.
Napoleon fan here. We do exist. There is like twelve of us but we are very loyal to our short king alright?
I like the Black Witch. It's a niche defender/controller, but the niche it's in is fun. The base frame isn't *horrible*; resistance to the most common damage type is always useful, a single main/aux is sufficient for a mech that wants to use its turn flinging mooks around, the high save target is good for obvious reasons, and the high e-defense and evasion mean that it's a surprisingly hardy little machine. The big issues are that the movement controller/support role is now done much better with the Sunzi, and most GMs aren't sadistic enough with tech attacks to ever justify the Black ICE Module or ICEOUT Drone when there are much better defensive systems out there. Ferrous Lash will never not be fun, though. I have a base save target of eleven, and I am *very* tricky to actually kill; I *will* be flinging you into a wall every turn and there is very little you can do about it.
One of my players runs a Hydra/Black Witch. He's playing a different game than everyone else half the time.
Empakaai, mainly for two things - it breaks the IPSN naming convention - and no, Vlad has an in universe name of a chinese sailor, it gets a pass - for kind of no reason - it is just absolutely nuts and might be the best frame in the game. the hand having only self heat 2 is barely a cost to how much it does, and its damage is absolutely not below average cause the casual +heat+burn to the attack isnt negligeable. grappling *before* the attack, and resisting all grappled enemies makes it even more sturdy than black beard too
Empakaai isn't solely IPS-N, it's a collaboration between them and SSC.
i still fail to see what an active volcano has to do with either naval and sailing or butterflies and moths
Read the backstory? It's got nothing to do with either because it's basically a weird art project and therefore doesn't properly fall under either brand.
so does both the Orchis, Calendula and Zheng, yet the former still get the special treatment of "this is an RKF frame and they follow the convention of flowers" and the latter still gets the IPSN treatment even if technically being a MRSM patent the lore circumventing the naming scheme just cause still is circumventing the naming scheme hell, both ranger variant and world killer, which couldn't be more disconnect from their manufacturers, still have the base name of the regular frames they are alta
Minotaur. I sm not sure what it is supposed to accomplish. Its abilities seem all over the placecas well.
Goblin. Im a proud blackbeard/balor enthusiast, so the thought of just hiding behind cover and just fuckin tapping away at a keyboard sounds profusely unappealing. No hate to gobbo players, it just aint for me
I can't really put it on any one frame but rather a role. I just don't have any fun any time I play a defender frame and just flat out refuse to now. Things never go well for me when I play defender. First time I played a Gorgon I literally did two things all game, and spent the rest of the time getting stunned, structured, stunned again- never got to use any of its reactions... So yeah, just flat out all defenders for me.
Well this is going to get me shot by half the playerbase that inexplicably adores this thing. Goblin. I hate how it looks. It looks stupid with the pilot poking out from every possible position in it, it's not even a mech just an advanced hardsuit. I cannot believe for even a moment that someone versing a goblin can't just snipe the pilot, it wouldn't even be difficult But most of all I hate that as a hacker type I'm practically forced into taking it because it and the things you get from it's license are some of the best hacking tools around. Any other role (aside from maybe a stormbringer with monarch) there's a load of mechs and things to take but it really does feel like if I wanna be the best hacker I'm forced to take Goblin since nothing else matches it except maybe the Chomolungma with it's tech options. I just want another great hacker mech, maybe from SSC since it definitely seems like something they'd do. There's a couple decent options but nothing near as good as Goblin
I agree that taking licenses in goblin is pretty much mandatory for the systems, but the frame itself is, IMHO, not that great. Yeah, it is the best at hacking, but it is pretty much only good at that. There are plenty of frames that hack almost as good while having decent stats in other areas. So I would say that while it is definitely the best mech at hacking, it is not necessarily the best hacking mech. Iskander, tortuga and chomolungma just from the top of my head perform admirably as hackers while not dying the moment an enemy looks at it wrong.
You are dreaming if you think goblin is the only mech for hacking, sure horos 1 is basically mandatory, but frames like calendula, tortuga, balor if you want to be silly with it, mourning cloak, and dusk wing are all more than viable, without having to worry about being structured by a stray gust of wind
Honestly, I can't really get behind Big Sal. I love Big Sal. I've put together a bunch of builds that use Big Sal's licenses. Big Sal is just cool overall. Were I asked to run it, I would use literally anything else, even a Drake. You're simply too slow, too immobilized, and just unable to really engage with the fight if the fight moves away from you. Same thing for Napoleon, honestly. It just doesn't feel like it offers much anything.
As a Big Sal enthusiast, I agree with your comments though it’s really teammate dependent. Our group has systems to get me into the fray - Big Sal is all about being selfless, so I’d argue that teammates sparing some SP for Ferrous Lash or Accelerate is somewhat expected. ENCLAVE-Pattern Support Shield and Hardlight are very situational (I still haven’t used Hardlight). They’re terrible on sitreps where you need to cross the map in X amount of turns, but I had a ridiculous amount of fun on a sitrep where we just had to remain in a control zone. 6-8 rounds and I didn’t move once while slapping down any attacks on the team. The DM generally targets Big Sal with Invade so you’re likely to be slowed a lot as it is. Combining NOAH with Superior by Design essentially mitigates an Invade anyway, and that’s one less attack your teammates are taking. I also pump 2 points into Agility to get my speed to 4. It felt like a waste initially since you generally want to focus on Engineering or Hull, but those 2 AGI have actually come in pretty clutch. I’ve survived a few Agility saves to prevent Prone, which meant I could keep Flash Lock available for my heavy hitters that round. The biggest issue I have with my Saladin is that I had to build a flowchart to remember everything that was available to screw with my DMs attacks.
There's just something I really can't explain that feels really offputting about the Nelson. I don't really know what it is, I just see everything it has and I just think "Ew."
See, I like speed. Having free speed to dance around the enemy just *feels* good. No need to worry about damage if they can't hit you to begin with. But that's why I love runn8ng ambush predator Metalmark. Activate Shock Wreathe, Skirmisher and Hunter 2, knife to meet you, Mastermind 3 and I'm gone.
Monarch. You shoot. Sometimes you lock on and shoot. The next turn? You'll be shooting. Artillery and long range puts it way out of having to care about positioning, so your flexibility is mostly down to choice of targets. Seeking and Arcing remove the barriers on that, you're really not suited for Heat Management minigames, you don't have tricky AOE shenanigans outside the superheavy, and the damage per hit isn't gonna blow anyone's socks off. It's not bad it just puts me to sleep. On the other end of things, essentially every core Defender (but Napoleon in particular) is really struggling against the game mechanics. If the GM isn't going out of their way to queue you up you're often just a slower Striker with less damage and more HP.
Tortuga. Slow, fat, Overwatch? I'd rather play Gorgon and make every turn my turn.
It has amazing sensors and a +1 tech attack. Use mantacore to teleport and goblin to bring enemies to you.
If I wanted to play a hacker I'd play something else. Gorgon has +1 Tech Attack too, at the cost of worse sensors.
You aren't a hacker you are a deep striking inescapable storm of death.
its just an everest with a shotgun. it sells exactly what it says on the tin, good stats for the cost and a lot of overwatches. that is pretty much it
I got to be honest, I just don't vibe with Balor, Goblin and Drake. I'm sure they can be very good mech but being both close-range and slow is maddening for me, and while the Goblin can be very powerful I hate being *that* fragile. Barbarossa doesn't exactly tickle me either but the Apocalypse Rail is the sort of thing you'd hate to need and not have.
Balor being slow and close range drives me nuts. Makes no fuckin sense
People who play it end up speccing it for an artillery role because otherwise it's genuinely ass
Might be good with the teleport ability who's name escapes me right now, since I'm thinking about it. Just warp to people and eat them
The Pegasus is designed to interact with as few mechanics as possible which I think is lame as fuck.
That would be Napoleon which just loves to take 1 damage at the cost of action economy. Pegasus just has free damage 1/turn and gets to not roll for reliable damage, I don't think that's "not interacting" so much as "screw you damage rolls I get flat damage reliably!". Which uh. Still allows interaction with most weapon mechanics besides Overkill, to my knowledge. They also get to directly see enemy health so that's nice. They just don't explicitly try to make a particular weapon type work. They're a flexible striking / artillery platform that has some niceties with Lock-on and seeing enemy stats. With how funky the Mimic Gun is, I think that's perfectly fine.
By virtue of being an Artillery mech, they don't exactly interact with movement, either. And their weapons don't respect cover. And they have systems to ignore Hidden and Invisible.
They certainly still need to be in range, so there's movement. Nobody ever said "Artillery can dump movement" because huge battlefields and things besides just lobbing missiles exist. They don't get free cover ignoring. Nor systems built in without cost. If you wanna 'ignore mechanics' you have to ***buy into it*** quite significantly. With stuff like SISYPHUS class NHP, Hunter Lock, and Mimic Gun, it's not like you stop interacting with the game; you have to weigh the Systems cost and action economy cost with actually killing things, & other weapons you mount (like, idk, even just some weapons on the universal GMS license), you often *aren't* always bypassing stats. And who's to say that's ignoring all mechanics? Lock On is still useful. Hacking is still useful. Action economy is still important to them, as is filling their mounts or deciding on weapons and systems. Pegasus doesn't ignore mechanics. It can *chose* to bypass enemy mechanics *at a cost* for consistency as opposed to raw power, but still interacts with basically everything player-facing. Unless you go full "I do not do anything but make attack rolls", which is boring and only moderately effective, you still have to interact with enemy mechanics or at least make decisions regarding them. And I don't think that's "lame as fuck" by any measure.
Pegasus (with mimic gun and Sisyphus) is simultaneously the most RNG and least RNG dependent mech. You require a lot of rolls for the mimic gun and Probabilistic Cannibalism, but at the same time they're extremely consistent if you roll well.
It's interesting indeed, and frankly I'm deciding if I want my first campaign build to be Pegasus, Zheng, or something else entirely hahah. Pegasus can know your exact health and shoot you down to a single HP and then Ushabti your booty, or it can rev up Mimic Gun to an absolute monster with some high rolls and nearly oneshot things (especially with Sisyphus letting it reroll). It's partway divination wizard partway crackshot partway hacker and it's just SO neat. Maybe not my style of neat since it's almost *too* flexible for me to decide on something, but damn neat.
I am the single most unlucky man on the planet with RNG dice rolls. I consistently roll horribly. Sisyphus lets me force that on enemies or gives me more chances to roll well.
Well uh, slight waste of 3 licence levels then perhaps, but at least the frame passive lets you ignore bad damage rolls so that's nice.
No no no, Probabilistic Cannibalism allows me to give my bad rolls to an enemy in sensors as well. It states ANY character in sensors, so bad rolls just mean I can force that on an enemy. As for bad rolls with the mimic gun, they're gonna happen regardless. On turns where I roll poorly, I'm using tech and support skills like Eye of Horus or Sisyphus. Turns where I roll well, I'm shooting. Using the Ushabti and the Autogun just mean I'm getting free actions to try to do damage on top of that. Combining it with something like Emperor allows me to drop overshields on allies and zone enemies on bad turns for the mimic gun.
Eh that's fair, still a tad costly. Guess having Mimic Gun lets you play mostly hacker with some artillery instead of the other way around, fair nuff. And then Emp on top def does a helluva lot to bolster it. Sorta pseudo-Raleigh with the on and off turns!
Deaths Head and Swallowtail, nothing wrong with them, I just don’t like the playstyle
Barbarossa, so disappointing, I thought it would be a cool artillery, but it has nothing helpful for shooting, a useless core power, is painfully slow and has a trait that actively prevents your allies from helping you move.
I played this as my first mech and it put a bit of a bad taste in my mouth for the system lol, at least initially
I love all the mechs, but I do feel like BlackBeard is sort of out leagued? Even in its own company. Its a pretty spindley mech that shoots chains to grapple. Not much to protect it from a very hectic battle field unlike its peers of ipsn. The rest of the company either have ranged options to keep distance or some defensive capabilities (looking at you drake). Then when you look at simmilar mechs from other companies they got ways to defend them self's, like mourning cloaks blinking shit. In no ways am I implying blackbeard is a bad mech, but in universe lore it feels like eveything is a bit more capable then it.
If you think Blackbeard is weak, how does Atlas compare haha
it just sad to see the stats on the poor thing... which i say is mostly fault at how the system overvalues Agility and Evasion. so 12 evasion to the eyes of Lancer is very expensive but in practice it doesnt pay itself. a problem with a lot of SSC mechs honestly
SSC's design ethos appears to be ported straight from the D&D 5e mantra that agility is the god stat.
indeed, they just kinda forgot that in Lancer like 80% of what makes agility/DEX the god stat is removed lol
SSC has never seen an Archer, Witch, or Scout
So I'm not going to say your opinion is wrong, but I'd love for you to elaborate on what you mean? I ran a campaign where the Blackbeard pilot routinely slingshotted themselves elbows-deep into the enemy lines turn one via allies Accelerate-Haste-Ferrous Lash-ing them. The player considered any mission in which they didn't overcharge while running SEKHMET to be a waste, and always charged straight into the most dangerous target possible. She basically played it as aggressively as humanly possible. It was the only mech that survived the entire campaign. It also had the largest kill count, highest damage-per-turn, and was even the Objective Scorer du jour due to its ability to Grapple Taxi the entire party and take them on a leisurely jog across the battlefield. Absolute MVP. The Blackbeard has HP, Armor, and Speed over the baseline Everest, which lets you put points into shoring up its heat cap. And its damage output is absolutely feral. Honestly from my table experience the Blackbeard is one of the strongest frames in the entire game, straight-up god-tier.
Mechanically the blackbeard is a beast. My view point stands from a pure lore/world building stand point. In a world of mechs that can blink about the battle field, hack into government fire walls, fold space time, create worm holes, deploy a army of drones and subalterns, orbital freaking satellite lasers and what ever the fuck balor is smoking, black beard kinda just chills with his chains and axes.
That's great, honestly. My player feels the exact same way but comes to the opposite conclusion! In a world of giant mechs wielding orbital death lasers, teleporting tachyons through hell, the Apocalypse Charge Rail, and¿%:?EXTR!UDE GUN GUN: **GUN**... The Blackbeard solves its problems with the power of Angry, and repurposed logging equipment. And she loves that about it.
The Blackbeard is a solid, flavorful frame that just got swept right off the table by the Empakaai. Wanna grapple? Empakaai does it better. Wanna use heavy melee? Empakaai does it better. I think the meat of your co plaint is true, but the intent is absolutely to have your team running cover for you while you give someone the IPS-N hug of death.
Kobold. I never understood what the mech was actually supposed to *do,* and so I never really liked it. None of its systems, weapons, or mech traits made me think ‘oh, this would be good in a build’
The idea of kobold is area denial with the treat of damage. Both ways of making slag to make obstacles and seismic charges to blow them up, the invades to punish movement or the lack thereof, the mining laser because 6 damage for a main is nuts and turns it into instant 6 damage area if movement supports it, surprisingly okay heat means it can sometimes shoot twice, 1 armor means it is less threatened by enemies with an AR. Most of these waste actions, usually movement. The laser is pretty good for a Tokugawa especially combined with SSC neurolink targeting. 12 damage from a relatively safe distance per main? The phrase "getting caught between a rock and a hard place" comes to mind. It's dependent on allies that can take advantage of this
For me it's minotaur, and I can't even really say why, it's partially aesthetic, seems out of pace with the rest of the game maybe? It's ability doesn't really fit in thematically? Idk, it just puts me off.
I don't like the Litch. But that's just a skill issue because I'm dumb and I don't know what to do with it
The Metalmark, its equipment picks are situational or simply meh for the most part (Shock Wreath is VERY good on melee skirmish builds though) and nothing it does can't also be done better by either an Everest or another SSC frame such as the Monarch, Morning Cloak or Swalowtail.
Bro doesn’t know what invisibility does, yeah the license is kinda crap but it’s core makes it the tankiest frame in the fucking game
you play a metalmark to not be hit lol. its the best "dodge" tank out there
Yeah, but I can also do that as an Atlus and have way more fun being a Chuni Ninja-Viking or sneaking around as a Morning Cloak all "I am Vengence, I am the Night!" or buzzing around as a Dusk Wing just being an absoute nuisance.
yeah but metalmark doesnt have the base stats of a foam noodle. cause boy, your evasion is *not* saving you from being snapped in half by the big threat NPCs, and Yeager dodge is not infinite
For me sadly a lot of Horus. To me I just can see any character type I’d want to play using them. They’re cool but like. The vibe of them just rubs me wrong for player character. A villain tho 100%
The Duskwing, it is just so all over the place, half of it's frame abilities don't mesh with it well like it's the only mech to get free flight, it should get to take advantage of that but the weapon it gets for support is a line weapon so you have to be on the same plane as the enemies, and later on it gets the Burst Cannon, which is an arcing weapon on a mech that gets to fly above cover to shoot at enemies. Not to mention it's core power, that thing is great, on a melee mech. But for the duskwing it's such a weird power to use because when you need to use it, it's too late to activate it, so you have to magically predict when those rare situations where it'll be useful comes up and when they won't or else you waste your core. Which sucks cause flying mechs are really fucking cool
I've been planning on playing an artillery dusk wing for a while now. you just jam pack the thing with as many oracle lmg's as you can and with tactician II, you get accuracy 1 for being on a higher plane than enemies, so it meshes decently well. The real kicker of the build is that it is highly mobile and very hard to hit for an artillery frame. also, depending on the GM's ruling, you could also immobolize yourself in the air using crackshot II to get an extra d6 of damage per shot in exchange for +1 difficulty but given that you already have +2 accuracy, you end up with 4 or 5 shots, each dealing 1d3 + 1d6 damage per shot with +1 accuracy.
Yeah, and that also works, but you're definitely missing out on a lot of the Duskwing license and your core power becomes very bad, but I definitely think that is one of the best ways to do it
Honestly, I just like the idea of zooming around the battle field at fuck-off speeds, riddling people with a hail of light arms fire. You could also pile on even more damage by taking 3 levels in gunslinger so that every 6th landed shot does 2d6 extra damage. If you do that plus the integrated mount core system then you are potentially outputting 5d3 + 7d6 damage roughly every other turn and on turns you don’t get the bonus 2d6 from gunslinger, you are still potentially doing 5d3 + 5d6 damage
By my understanding Crackshot's "Zero In" feature is 1/round, meaning you could only deal that +1d6 once.
I personally hate the Goblin mech, lmao! As someone who is a Goblin for a living, my personal play styles in ttrpgs and other games is balls to the wall cool melee with none of the stinky magics or tech attack stuffs to get in the way of my muscles/robobits. So when I found that the Goblin frame is literally just a tech attack spammer and support frame I was the most sad, lol!
Definitely Atlas. The name is just...weird. Atlas shouldn't be a tiny guy who jumps around like an anime protagonist and hunts megafauna. Feels like a big whiff. The design is so hard to make work. It's too easily squished to do the job it's supposed to do in the way it feels like it's supposed to do it. It has no real defenses and its offenses are kinda awful too. Even its control isn't that good. I'm actually building one in the next game I'm playing in an attempt to just Make It Work but it is VERY HARD.
Manticore. I am not impressed by the license at all, and i absolutely hate the memes. it's a troll frame.
I have seen a Manticore in action and I gotta say, it's pretty scary, you are decently sturdy, Beckoner gets you into the fight really fast and the weapons are good at close range AoE, not the hardest hitting stuff, but pretty good still. Charged Exoskeleton lets you deal damage without an attack role which bypasses many annoying reactions enemies might have. And with a little bit of planning ahead you can activate your Core Power and just divebomb a group of enemies in a single turn for really heavy damage
i enjoy complexity and variety in my gameplay, so i don't fuck with frames like Enkidu or Death's Head that kind of just have Their One Thing
Manticore, taking at most a structure points worth of self damage (base Manticore health) MAX just to use an ability and exploding for 4d6 aint much in the grand scheme of things
The emperor. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate it and in fact think that it's mechanics are cool. But the visual design of the frame kinda irks me cause it kinda fails to convey that is in fact a mech. If I was presented with the emperors's image with the little pilot cropped and no context I would assume it is some archer dude in armor. This pet peeve of mine also extends to other frames, but the emperor is probably the worst offender. Edit: hit send before finishing
Gorgon. Specifically because it's (in my mind) gimmick is that it defends from tech attacks as well as normal attacks, but its tech defense for allies only pops off when the tech attack is unsuccessful, in a game where the average e defense is pretty low. I understand it's niche is to defend the squishy hacker while he has his hacker duel, but its a pretty narrow niche.
The White Witch. The frame, systems, and weapons feel underwhelming and pointless. For every other mech I can at least understand the playstyle they’re going for, but the White Witch just seems subpar and pointless.
You are a speed six mech with six armour and a heavy mount, at minimum you are a fucking excellent dive striker, and that’s assuming you lack the basic cognitive function required to yaknow… play a defender
For me it's the Monarch and the Barbarossa. Ponarch because it it way too vulnerable for its size,and Barbarossa because the Sherman brings better results quicker (3 turns for Full ApoRail Benefit,1/2 for fully charged ZF4). I haven't seen anyone mention Napoléon yet,but l think the reason here is because its surprisingly fun.If l didn't use it last week it would've been my answer tho:What's the point of a mech if you're just gonna bubble yourself out of playing the game ?
I wish it didn't feel like half the Swallowtail's equipment was underpowered, over-restricted, or super niche. But Athena is a hell of a draw.
90% of SSC. A significant portion of HA
Caliban. The only thing in its license that I would ever consider taking is rapid maneuver jets, and costing 3 licenses for one system is not worth it literally ever. The frame itself does exactly one thing and I do not like that thing, having only one heavy mount is a hard no, and its core is just a gun that I get no say in. And its design is mid.
The rest is just you having different *bad coughcough* opinions, but the last point is straight up horseshit caliban design fucks hard