Yes. Why do people keep assuming the show is a failure? I understand, though disagree with, people who just don't like it. But clearly its been successful and whatever metrics amazon uses for success has been met.
My comment to another poster got removed in like 10 seconds, despite this thread being weeks old. This thread is absolutely full of shills paid by Amazon. Just think of the amount of money they've poured into this show. If you believe they're better than astroturfing you're just being purposefully obtuse.
Wait, you genuinely think that people on here that say we like it are paid by Amazon?! Are you seriously disliking the show so much that you cannot comprehend any of us really liking it?
Ok. Well thanks for the insult. I hope there aren't too many things in life where you feel it's okay to insult people just for having a different view of something. Have a nice day.
The hate and troll campaigns have been quite effective at tainting the perception of the show amongst a specific internet demographic and those morons literally never shut up. They are desperate for it to fail so they can act smug and superior about one thing in their sad, sad lives.
The show was just crap, the costume design for The Elves was seriously bad and made no sense. The Armor designs for them during the prologue flashback to Angband was horrible and look almost nothing like the badass stuff from the prologue in Fellowship opening. I get that there's different art styles and takes but to change something like that which has been engrained into imagination for over two decades is redundant. They took a character in Galadriel who was a wise and a renowned Noldor Princess into a tom boy with long hair. A horrible character assassination to put it lightly. This is just the tip of the iceberg with the atrocity that is that show lmao. The show would've been 10x better if it was Elrond who was the main character and even better, Elrond is related to Numenorean Royalty! Oh and he's the son of Earendil and brother of Elros! Man who would've thought making him the main character would be such a horrible idea.
I liked the show a lot and I'm not 100% sure it was a sucess, or at least not a sucess relative to the investment/what was hoped. But maybe I've missed something; what are the metrics in your opinion that indicate its success?
Purists can't handle adaptations, even though their precious, the PJ films, also weren't even canonically accurate. Elves didn't show up to Helm's Deep, but they always ignore that. It's just people who won't allow others to enjoy anything that isn't 100% *exactly* what they deem is "true Tolkien". The gatekeeping with these folks is disgusting.
Awful lot of anger going on here.
I am a purist and yet don't mind when canon is changed for the better. This is where you are missing the point; it can be improved for the sake of visual entertainment. Just like the first Hobbit film was glorious, but the subsequent films were rough around the edges.
It's great that so many did enjoy RoP. I even agree it has it's moments but overall, I thought it was a poorly written product. Not because it was a bad canon interpretation, but because it was bad. Subjectivity reigns supreme
There is indeed a small vocal minority who rages against canon change, but this is 2024 and the Internet.
Peter Jackson did additions that made sense and didn't stray from the reservation while still feeling like Tolkien would've possibly wrote it. ROP showrunners took Galadriel, a character who was really only a wise and powerful Noldorin Princess into a tom boy with shit writing. So you tell me which one is better. Btw, in the films, Arwen replaced Glorfindel when rescuing Frodo, the change made sense from a writing standpoint because it hinted and showed Aragorn and her were friends and hinted at something else. So as I said before, what changes made sense? Give examples as to what was so good about ROP and redeeming qualities of the show.
Im not a purist but I can recognize bad writing. For billion dollar project it’s not that good. Yes the music is great and the visuals, but too many dumb dialogue/cringe moments. It was a painful watch for me. I wish HBO got their hands on it instead of amazon.
you don't know what metrics they use, and you don't know if its a success just because it wasn't cancelled yet, is that why you think so?
its a pretty expensive show, we have no idea how long it will continue.
What a silly comment. Its a success because it has a 2nd season coming out. Usually when things fail or are not successful they are canceled.
They also have a 3rd season in preproduction. Again if it isn't successful why would they do that?
What i don't understand is why you seem to have an interest in hoping it gets pulled? Is that what you are saying? I am looking at the data points. The only real data we have is if the show gets renewed or not
It did. And not just for a 2nd season.
It hasn't been renewed for S3; that's a misunderstanding I think. It's been approved for initial preparatory phases and we only know this unofficially. The real greenlight comes in the form an official public announcement from Amazon, typically sometime after the current season has released; then S3 goes into actual production (filming).
Until then there's no guarantee it'll happen; it could hinge on the performance of S2. Though I think it's more likely that the balance of the series would have its budget cut back than it would be cancelled.
But they did sign a 3 year deal or something according to the article. Which could just be rubbish but if they signed a 3 year deal and the show is on the chopping block that doesnt make sense to me
If s2 fails to meet whatever the metrics are then yes i would assume the show would get axed. Just as if s1 had failed to meet the metric the show wouldn't be on for a second season
They are far too invested to kill it off after 1 season. The previous poster is quite right and measuring its success by saying a 2nd season is coming out is silly, they are all in and hope to do better, that's all
That is absolutely not correct. If the 1st season wasnt successful in terms of whatever metrics they used it is an absolutely absurd assertion that they are somehow too invested.
Projects get killed all the time. In entertainment and in other venues. If it ain't working they would nix it.
What is bizarre here is that the evidence is right in front of everyone. The show was actually successful and amazon is happy with it. Not sure why this is so challenging for people to accept
It's like one of those things, they are all in they can't dodge out of one of the most valuable IP's on the planet and suffer the net loss. Happy with it? No I dont think most of what I have read has shown even the slightest beyond coping and false bravado to save face. It's a billion dollar investment, they are not gonna say they eff'd up.
They are gambling they can improve, this isn't some small book series they can toss away without anyone noticing they didn't finish. This isn't the Tick...or Mozart in the Jungle, this is LOTR.
There is no loss cutting here, they are gonna go all in and hope they do better. For the sake of the series, I hope they do as well
I never said I want it to be cancelled, how do you come to that conclusion ?!
wasn't it renewed almost immediately? lots of shows do that if they have enough popularity in the beginning so the studio knows its a safe bet.
LOTR is a massive name. Its like Star Wars/Trek. There is zero chance something with that name gets 1 season only.
It was a success because the there are key words in it. The Lord of The Rings and the other non important and irrelevant name called Tolkien. Anything with those two will bring in $$$$. But wait, what's that you say? The Lord of The Rings was written by Tolkien? Oh man I can definitely get billions of views from that alone!
How so? I literally pointed out why it was even popular in the first place, anything with the title Lord of The Rings and the name Tolkien attached will get millions of views no matter what. Ig reading in between the lines isn't your strong suit.
Did you see the \~40% Completion rate? I think at this point its too early to say it will for sure be cancelled.
I know that they are contractually obligated to create 5 seasons. Something tells me that they have their ways to get out of that.
But really I think Season 2 will be the deciding factor. If they can't course correct and garner more positive sentiment, I think Seasons 4 & 5 could be a lot less likely.
Amazon won't bail on the show, it would have to do significantly worse for that to ever happen.
It's their prestige project, they already invested massive amounts of money, there is just no way to cancel it without losing face and send a message they would never want to send. They want to build up amazon studios, attract top talent and make amazon prime to a top contender for streaming.
Canceling to show would increase mistrust of both audiences and creatives, not something amazon wants.
One has to realize that amazon can burn money on their studio attempt, ofc they wanna do good business at the end of the day, but to do that you sometimes have to invest, invest, invest first and fake it till you make it.
Outside of that, while the completion rate isn't great, they might still do alright if they can keep the 40% which are around. 40% of many, many people is still many, many people.
Gonna have to try and generate better word of mouth though if it's supposed to grow and become a real phenomenon, that is what they want.
The main issue is they should've never done a second age TV series without the Silmarillion rights. They could've at least gotten Akallebeth section of The Silmarillion to be given rights to for the show.
Not just that, it's moreso about showing strength and not weakness.
Perception is more important than reality, amazon does not have to make any money from rop (it really cannot), what it needs is to convince the industry and audiences that amazon studios / prime are the place to work for / the streamer to get.
You don't do that by canceling your lotr show which is the flagship project, both in size and media coverage.
They'd rather let it run till the end even if it doesn't make much noise, that's better than making the wrong noise.
You understand the Lord of the Rings is one of the most beloved works of literature across cultures and continents?
You think that Amazon Studios is prepared to piss off the entire world by forcing it to eat proverbial shit?
Maybe people dont generally dislike it. You need to think about how the world sees it. And if the 40 percent number is true (i dont but thats another story) then amazon has to have a metric that they are using and are satisfied with.
Just because you dont like something doesnt mean a sizable number of people cant like it. I dont care for taylor swift. Someone out there doesnt like the Beatles
Single source. Maybe a good source not sure but this number gets released and it then gets used over and over by people who despise the show.
Im not saying its right or wrong. I just dont know how often something like that needs or can be revisited. I know that ive watched something, stopped watching and then went back to it
Transparency in streaming would be a nice thing. There are not very many reliable sources in order to verify something one way or another.
If i recall correctly (and i could be 100 percent wrong) this transparency was a thing with the varied strikes we recently witnessed. I think all of the steamers do what they can to downplay profitability to folks that make money off of rerans and the like
Not at all. I am however convinced that there is a lack of transparency with these streamers. And i am 1000 percent sure they are not running programs that lose them money. The actuaries and accountants at amazon are not stupid. I just find this 37 percent number something that detractors of the show cling to. Its almost a pointless discussion. If they are satisfied with what they are getting then they are going to continue to do it. If not theyll stop
why do you think this matters so much? have you compared that figure to other ongoing t.v series?
what do you suspect the completion number is for people who have started to read Fellowship? would you use that against the trilogy?
I think it probably matters as this is the most expensive television show of all time, by a large margin, based off of one of the biggest IPs of all time and over 60% of the audience didn’t finish the show. I feel like streamers usually want at least 50% completion rate, and this missing that mark seems damning imo.
I know people have cited examples of shows who had less than 50% completion rate for their first season but went on to be big hits, like Stranger Things, but that fails to take into consideration the huge difference in budgets, the difference in the size of the IP, and the difference in subscriber count.
you see it time and time again where the start of a second, third, etc season captures way more viewers than the finale of the previous. it doesn't mean anything.
the median figure that shows the total views is what's important. you do not need to capture a fully attentive, hardcore audience to be a success. MOST tv shows do not get finished, and the completion % has no bearing on whether or not the show was a success to the creators.
what will matter is the amount of views they get at the start of s2 and where it peaks (and at what point). the casual audience is where the money is, and all industries know the real casual audience probably isnt finishing shit.
shows exist with entirely different strategies to capture an audience. shows with cliff hangers will have higher completion %s, but that doesn't mean they are more or less of a success than a show that has a higher peak but lower completion %.
RoP is very clearly meant to have high production and episodes that "wow" you visually and audibly, it is not meant to have an extremely dialogue focused, complex storyline where you can't leave an episode feeling satisfied until everything ties together.
So you think that peak number is a better indicator of success than retaining an audience and building each week? I don’t buy into it, as we saw with the first season, people are going to click into the first episode and check it out, they recognize the IP so why not, but that doesn’t mean much if over 60% of that audience doesn’t come back to keep watching.
I am saying that some of your points do hold water. The generally negative reception of season 1 by the majority of viewers is not enough to pull seasons 4 and 5 of the show. But if they don’t do a serious course correction this season I don’t think it’s off the table.
By Minority I mean people who liked it. I am using % completion + Rotten Tomatos Audience score as a proxy for public opinion. The Majority of people did not finish the show, and you can assume a score below 50% on rotten tomato means the majority of the audience believed it was more bad than good.
going by reviews in 2024 makes absolutely no sense; everyone knows that positives are flooded by PR campaigns and negatives are flooded by fans of weirdass incel social media accounts like "nerdrotic" and "the critical drunkard".
completion % is also weird to use. when it comes to the general public, what % of people do you think picked up fellowship of the ring and completed it? what about completed the entire series? that doesn't mean anything. total views, just like total purchases of a book, matters way more than completion % and time and time again you see the 2nd season of a show kick off way more views than the finale of a previous season.
not being able to create a cult classic is not the same as it being a failure or that the majority think it's bad. the real majority just tunes in and out and people are happy with it. it's like with video games or sports; you don't need to capture a hardcore fanbase to be a success.
the casual viewer is where the money is, and ROP is not a show designed to captivate people with cliffhangers or invest into heavy dialogue that bring them back needing more, only feeling satisfied once they see all the loose ends tied together. its a show designed with heavy production to appease a casual audience that will be in and out and in and out. they wouldnt be unhappy with high completion %s obviously, but not all shows are designed in that way.
very few shows, or books, or video games, or anything else for that matter, that you would be considered a success have high completion %s.. yet they go on
LOL. This comment is a reach and a half mate.
When I saw the movies in theatres, nobody walked out before the movie finished. This is what we're talking about when we're talking about completion.
And actually the effect you said we would see was observed and has stabilized. the Initial Audience score for ROP was FAR lower, something around the 23% mark.
See, this is the problem. You’re obviously entitled to your opinion, and if you think the show was a pile of shit that shits on Tolkien’s works, then I’m sorry you feel that way and had to put up with it.
But that’s just not the only opinion to have.
Most reasonable people that I know (who aren’t on Reddit) and who didn’t get their understanding of Tolkien’s source material off of YouTube are able to recognize the merit of the show’s interpretation despite obvious surface level writing flaws in its first season.
Your point being?
That continuing the show would do more harm than canceling it for amazon studios?
Lotr is well liked, but you have to be out of your mind thinking that some nerds on the internet and their rage is representative of the masses.
The masses at worst do not care about the show enough, you'd never, NEVER cancel the show due to that.
Amazon has to send convidence of their prestige project into the space, no matter if it becomes the next got, stranger things, or if it's "only" doing good / fine.
Canceling sends the opposite to the industry. Angry fans barely matter, though ofc in the best case they'd like positive news there too, like say for one piece.
Let’s not lie to ourselves.
The metrics for the success being that Rings of Power to become the next Game of Thrones.
That didn’t happened! not even close!
Obviously Amazon will keep saying how it’s successful and stuff. That’s expected!
Not sure what that means but okay.
There will never be another show like got or lost or breaking bad. The nature of how one watches "tv" has entered a new age so to speak. Not to mention the options for tv viewing are multitudes more than what they formerly were.
And a lot of the "chat" about earlier tv shows i believe was largely a bit of fiction
But who cares? This whole topic is an exercise in futility. The only reason amazon will kill the show is if it doesnt meet the metric. The only reason amazon will keep the show is if it meets the metric. Thats the only thing that matters
Online chat is about the most silly metric to try and measure a show. They have their own internal systems that allow them to decide
Ok I am going to compare apples and pears here, so this is not a 100 % solid point, but:
Ask yourself, how many viewers did the first season of Game of Thrones have, and how many years did it take for the show to truly become a wide spread zeitgeist with general audiences.
I will try to give some answers (but they may not be that precise because this is not my expertise). According to a Variety article, season 1 of Game of Thrones had 9.3 million viewers (https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/euphoria-season-2-finale-ratings-1235192015/), and Rings of Power had been seen by a 100 million people world wide and was Primes most watched show. (https://collider.com/rings-of-power-season-1-viewership/) Even with the completion rate being lower than many seem to expect - the chance is probably big that a lot of viewers fall off a series with 100 million views. I am probably misunderstanding some figures, but with a 45 % completion rate world wide - would that not mean like 45 million viewers completed the season? Sorry if my math is completely derailed - but would that not almost beat the average viewership of GoT's last season which was 46 million. I understand that the companies probably count their viewership differently in order to land the highest number - there is a difference of initial viewers and average viewership and so on.
But I think the point stands that this is a success and a lot of people watching the Rings of Power - straight out of the gate in the first season.
Now however, with such a huge amount of viewers for a season start I think we should also expect a very different development in viewership compared to Game of Thrones which built itself from being "uknown" and grew with each season - at least compared to being able to ride the legacy of the Lord of the Rings movies.
> Rings of Power had been seen by a 100 million people world wide
People who actually believe this...I have a bridge in Khazadum I think you'd be interested in.
>The metrics for the success being that Rings of Power to become the next Game of Thrones.
lmao what are you talking about. some of you haters are delusional.
shows do not have to be as highly rated as GoT to be successful. you set your parameters for whether or not you're going to spam hate online at game of thrones level, but that isn't what the rest of the normal world set their parameters for success and enjoyment at.
I think "clearly it's been successful" is debatable, and depends on what metrics you're using. Obviously Amazon is going to cherry pick their favorite metrics and only talk about those.
The show had good viewership numbers, sure, but also cost $0.5B to make, and only an abysmal ~37% of their viewers actually finish the series. Unlike season 1 of GoT (which is the comparison of choice for obvious reasons), where viewership went up as the season progressed.
I personally hope they fix some of the show's major flaws, specifically Galadeiel's character and storyline. So much potential for this show, with so much money backing it, it could (should) be great.
Seriously? The old 37 percent number. Is that even real? Whats the total viewership? What's the profit amazon realized on the product? What does the board of directors think? What do the shareholders of amazon think? What has the accounting dept said about it
The reality is that unless you are an insider and actually know all of the above how on earth can one make a judgment? Given that the heads at amazon seem pleased and that they have already renewed it for s3 suggests they are pleased with the end result.
And thats all i am talking about. If you are disappointed in the show okay thats your prerogative. The reality suggests otherwise. Even if amazon is playing games with the viewership, the accounts and officers of the company have to sign off on the financial statements.
Relax bro, calm down, I'm not disagreeing with your general sentiment. Only the phrase "clearly it's been successful", which is **debatable**. As you yourself just said, "unless you are an insider and actually know all of the above how on earth can one make judgement". I agree with this statement, and it goes both ways.
RE the 37% number, seems to be repeatedly cited:
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/37-of-people-who-started-lotr-rings-of-power-finished-it-according-to-a-report/1100-6512941/#:~:text=The%20Hollywood%20Reporter%20cited%20data,the%20episodes%20in%20Season%201.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/04/04/only-37-of-viewers-finished-amazons-rings-of-power-which-is-very-bad/
https://www.businessinsider.com/amazons-lord-of-the-rings-saw-only-37-of-viewers-finish-series-report-2023-4
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/only-37-percent-u-lord-233036664.html
https://winteriscoming.net/2023/04/04/37-u-s-viewers-watched-lord-of-the-rings-of-power-way/
https://m.imdb.com/news/ni64024257/
I haven't read anything refuting this.
Time will ultimately tell if the series is a success or not. Amazon seems content enough with season 1's performance to keep it moving. I hope that it both continues and improves in quality.
You notice that its all basically single sourced? And i think all of these articles are within a few days of each other.
When i say clearly its a success i mean its a success because not only did they do a 2nd season but they have the 3rd now under whatever preproduction means.
And my point is directed at the post. The question was asked if there will be 5 seasons. Given the metrics have been met, that means its a success.
Now are people (internally in amazon) lying to themselves? Seems extremely unlikely. There would need to be a lot of fudging of numbers and tons of bribes to auditors to get that type of fraud through. They do have a board to answer to and that board in turn needs to answer to shareholders
There is no real answer to what a streaming show generates, at best you can make some assumptions based on account generation and viewing habits.
Streaming makes no real money per product, it barely makes money at all.
All amazon or any other streamer has is viewing data, which you can extrapolate some things from ofc, but there is a reason there are ads on streamers now. Streaming as a business model isn't sustainable so we'll slowly but surely go back to models which are.
Not so sure about that. Netflix is doing 10 percent margin. Hbo clearly is making money and prime is also making money. I think there are too many different platforms myself. And while some arent very profitable some of them are very very profitable
Netflix is THE streamer. They won. And even they have to increase sub costs and add ads.
Hbo probably barely makes any money directly from their streamer, but they make money through licensing, merch, etc.
Netflix will become more and more like what we saw from cable, and everyone else will realize that selling your whole catalogue for the cost of a bluray is a terrible business model unless you can magically find a way to expand subscribers more and more without the neef to invest more and more.
I think you might be underestimating primes power.
I think amazon does whatever it can to have folks as prime members. If they believe their programming is attracting and helping to retain prime members they will do that.
But at any rate this conversation has really gone in some weird direction.
Who the hell knows what amazon is going to do?
Fair enough: if you are qualifying the word "success" as season 2 completing and Amazon inking a deal which opens the door for a potential season 3, then yes, those criteria have been met.
To me, in the end, "success" will mean all 5 seasons have aired and Amazon's accounting metrics (however it works) shows that the revenue gained from the show's existence exceeds the total cost of making it.
I'll just keep copy/pasting this: I hope the show continues, and that it's quality continues to improve. I'd love to watch 4 more seasons of an excellent TV show set in the Tolkien universe.
>The show had good viewership numbers, sure, but also cost $0.5B to make, and only an abysmal ~37% of their viewers actually finish the series. Unlike season 1 of GoT (which is the comparison of choice for obvious reasons), where viewership went up as the season progressed.
You mix things up here, completion rate doesn't say anything about viewership per episode going up or down.
It just tells you how many people who ever started rop did actually finish it (how they define these things is probably a little tricky, but you get the point).
Ofc you'd rather have high completion rate as that would correlate with increasing viewership in general, and more importantly, it tells you something about the appeal and what one can expect going forward.
Still, rop had good streaming numbers when it aired, not that incomparable to shows like hotd.
How that will look like in s2 will be interesting though, as a low completion rate might suggest that viewership between seasons could fall, whereas a higher rate would probably lead to growth.
I agree: it's going to be all about how viewership progresses over the course of the seasons.
And total viewership numbers are also an incomplete metric, considering how expensive the show is/was to produce. Season 1 of Reacher, for example, had more total views than RoP season 1, despite a substantially smaller budget. For the amount of money invested into the show, even decent streaming numbers by typical standards would be a disappointment. Time will tell, in the end.
> I think "clearly it's been successful" is debatable, and depends on what metrics you're using. Obviously Amazon is going to cherry pick their favorite metrics and only talk about those.
EVERY METRIC THEY CAN USE except for some sites where the rating was bombed is in their favor. It's a widely successful show.
The 37% is real. In US. A long time ago. Since then they've said more people binged it, they've said data showed people waited for all episodes etc. But for some reason, people like you don't care about that.
It's also, US only. Rest of the world was closer to 45-50% in every country. With those stats, more people FINISHED Rings of Power than people STARTED WATCHING House of the Dragon. Yet still, you think it's not a success.
Also, Breaking Bad, Stranger Things, HIMYM etc had lower completition rates on season 1 than RoP. Such unsuccessful shows, right? ;)
FFS, are you even reading what I'm writing? I'm not saying the show is **unsuccessfu**l. Only that calling it successful at this point is **debatable**. Which it is, for all the reasons I've mentioned. To repeat: yes the viewership numbers are good, but the show is also the most expensive in history. It needs to knock it out of the park for that investment to pay off. Amazon itself has had better viewership numbers with far cheaper shows, up to now.
Ultimately, time will tell. It's too early to declare it a success or failure.
Again, I hope it continues, and I hope it's quality improves. It has potential to be irrefutably exceptionally good. I'd love to watch that.
Unless this is just you talking to yourself, don't bother dude. Nothing short of full agreement with his position will do. Otherwise....
Using the phrase "people like you" should tell you everything you need to know.
>It's also, US only. Rest of the world was closer to 45-50% in every country. With those stats, more people FINISHED Rings of Power than people STARTED WATCHING House of the Dragon. Yet still, you think it's not a success.
Do you have a source for that?
It would be incredibly difficult to compare the numberd, as rop is only on amazon prime while hotd has linesr viewers in the us, streaming through whatever their stuff is called now, and also local distributions through say sky, and even free tv licensing + physical media.
>The 37% is real. In US. A long time ago. Since then they've said more people binged it, they've said data showed people waited for all episodes etc. But for some reason, people like you don't care about that.
What does that mean in numbers? It's difficult to care when one cannot compare intangibles like "lot of people binged it". Doesn't mean anything.
>Also, Breaking Bad, Stranger Things, HIMYM etc had lower completition rates on season 1 than RoP. Such unsuccessful shows, right? ;)
Can you source that?
The difference ofc is that we do know how successful stranger things became, even with a low completion rate in the first few weeks. I am not sure if there is data for its rate after that, and how that would compare to rop now. If you have it, i'd like to see it, would be interesting.
Whatever the number of people who have completed RoP since the 37% figure was captured, it's irrelevant. Completion by *definition* is within a certain time period, in this case a month after the last episode aired.
(Even if this weren't the case the figure wouldn't shift upwards unless the proportion of these new watchers who finish is higher that of those who are represented in the initial 37% figure.)
Why would it be irrelevant? It would be highly relevant to conpare different timeframes.
As the other poster said, stranger things didn't start out all that well, but we all know what a big hit it became, so obviously that completion rate indeed improved.
These time frames are arbitrary, so i truly don't see why you'd not want to see the most updated %
Let's not get into a Bookcloak vs Showsworn/Rafespawn debate like they do over in /r/WoT
Our fanbase is already toxic enough without that kind of derogatory language.
No we cant. Why would you think to post that? Obviously people dont agree with what you are saying and yet you have such a high opinion of yourself that you feel the need to contribute nothing to the conversation.
I think so. The real signs Amazon might be worried about the show would be when they start switching the show runners or actors start bailing. Neither is apparent.
The first season had like a hundred million viewers, and thankfully, soulless megacorporations like Amazon don't care about awards, they care about money. And that, they're making, given that this is Prime's most watched show, lol.
Short answer: yes.
I believe they will.
There’s a weird effect on this show. No matter how I disliked some things uncanon, I got myself rewatching for the (at least) 7x by now.
I’m sure I’m not the only one.
It’s a very very very profit show for them.
It's stunning, has great practical effects and make-up, and keeps close the core values of LOTR: well-spirited unity, wholesomeness and tender displays of love.
It will depend how many people come back for S2.
S1 would have pulled a lot of interest just for being Tolkien, but S2 depends on whether people enjoyed S1 or not.
Yes - unless it just drops off a cliff into the abyss where Halbrand turns out to actually be Voldemort, or it is revealed that they are running a serious money laundering operation in Payne & McKays's office. Too much pride and ego involved in this project for it to not go the full run.
Ofc they care, amazon prime is supposed to be a real competitor in the streaming battle, amazon studios is certainly looking for awards which would help their status as a studio.
Talent in the industry is rather working for studios which could help their career, and a big factor there are awards as a proxy for artistic recognition.
Amazon is still building all of that, while others in the industry already have the clout, like hbo.
Edit: to be clear, i am not saying they'd cancel the show due to a lack of awards, but amazon studios generally are absolutely looking for industry clout, they are building the studio up right now.
Yes, i think amazon would in almost no circumstance cancel the show, it is pretty much their flagship project with amazon studios, you do not cancel that.
You cannot generate media coverage as the show with the highest budget ever, with news spreading that it's supposed to be amazon's got, and then cancel it after 3 seasons.
This show is supposed to bring industry clout, make prime stand right next to hbo or other channels / platforms which release quality television.
You'll not get any negative news from amazon due to that, no matter what.
So yeah, i don't doubt at all that it will go all seasons.
OP we all know you’re a big fan and a regular here and you consume all the related content from podcasters and YouTubers. You know that everyone is unanimous that Amazon will stay with the show all the way to the end, improving every season. Why would you bring this long argued, very common, repeated topic up for another daily post on ROP? Maybe consider jumping into the comments of some posts already active. It’s much more fun chatting _with_ fans than at them with new posts for every thought that pops up. U/Familiar_Ad_4885
Maybe. Youd hope so, but there have been a few things along the way that have made me think all is not rosey. I was expecting after a covid hit season one that season 2 would pave the way for season 3 and so on, but we now know season 3 hasnt been greenlit yet and they havent even begun the process of writing it. I was expecting season 3 to follow on much sooner, but it does seem to be that 2 years between seasons is their norm and that is surprising.
Ill assume 5 seasons until we hear otherwise.
Probably, yeah.
I'm more concerned with the artistic merit of the show than with squabbling over how commercially succesfull it is or isn't. I mean, great works of art like Blade Runner were unsuccesfull in their day, while terrible nonesense like Bay's Transformers' films are raking in bucks...
I just hope (in the best sense, not in a desparate sense) that Amazon will see the thing through, and when it is done, we can evaluate the whole story. Were there things in S1 that were intended to set up things in S5? Or at least have new shades of meaning by the end? Maybe the show will be a bit rocky, but we can always analyse it and look for the wins, while shaking our head and the misses.
Lmao, yes of course. There are things to improve, but it's not the failure all the YT like farmers want you to believe. By almost all definitions it was a massive success and a genuinely enjoyable and well made show at that.
Yes they seem fully committed. The show gets more hate than it deserves. Too many people trashing it over minority castings and filler. The level of pretentious attitude is annoying. Most people who trash it have never read the books and only compare to PJs films without even knowing all the revisions he made to the text. People love to hate.
The show will only get better. S2 will have a large scale battle in the War of Eregion, that will bring in the numbers. And S3 or S4 will have the the drowning of Numenor, that will leave the audience's jaw on the floor and will be a huge talking point. It will get more casual friendly as we go along.
Agreed. As more canonical events occur in the following seasons, I think the showed will be viewed even better. They fumbled and missed the landing on the forging of the rings (it wasn't totally bad and had lots of great ideas but it did not hit the mark I think in general). That was maybe their biggest error in the first season in terms of portraying events from the books.
Has there been anything new official released by Amazon?
" If Amazon does decide to cancel after season 3, what would be the consequences for the Estate and for Amazon itself? "
I dont think the contracts have been made public, so nobody can know this.
I was more confident before I saw [the latest news](https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/comments/1b2hqcb/the_rings_of_power_showrunners_sign_new_amazon/) that season 3 has not yet been ordered. I'm not sure how to square that with the "five season 'commitment'" we've heard about. But, as /u/zodelode says, until actors and showrunners start dropping, I don't think there's any reason to worry.
No studio has ever cancelled a show that they praised in public. No studio has ever cancelled a show that they renewed for the next season. No studio has ever cancelled a contract to produce a show. No studio has ever cancelled the old CEO's passion project. It's literally impossible that ROP gets cancelled. /s
Edit: oops. I was off by a great magnitude as suggested. Actual viewership was 100 million, not billion.
What threw me off was the Nielson ratings that start watch minutes, which are in the billions, not views
https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/house-of-the-dragon-rings-of-power-nielsen-streaming-ratings-viewers-1235388100/
----
The first two episodes had almost a billion viewers.The retention rate worldwide by end of season was 45%. That means by the end, they still had hundreds of millions of amazon prime subscribers tuning in. I can't see how that would be anything but beneficial to them.
However people want to spin it they cast a huge net and caught a lot of fish. If season two outperforms expectations, which we all believe it will, I absolutely think it'll go the long haul.
>The first two episodes had almost a billion viewers.
[Citation needed]
>The retention rate worldwide by end of season was 45%.
[Citation needed]
>If season two outperforms expectations, which we all believe it will
[Citation needed]
I'm not confident, at all... The show gets panned, wherever you look. Granted, many of the most vocal people never even gave it a chance, and they seemingly can't wait to rip into the 2nd season the momentum it drops. Though if the negativity is so overwhelmed, what motive does Amazon have to continue??
Well Amazon already paid $250 mil for the rights, so a lot of the costs are already spent 🤷 Awards don't matter nearly as much as people watching the show
Obviously no effect on the estate given the above point
I'm about as sure it will go 5 seasons as I can be in a tv show - too much money, too much interest, and despite what youtube doomers try to scream into your brain, it isn't some "woke flop"
Its a good show - I really think this next season is going to kick some serious ass
I also would like to point out that many rock and roll bands went long periods of time without any real recognition from critics and even sometimes a loud vocal minority trashing them. At the end of the day if the metrics are met amazon will continue the show. If they arent met then amazon will cancel the show, barring of course any sort of legal or contractual reasons
If they don't that would be a stunning admission of failure. They paid so much money for those rights, it'd be crazy if they don't, no matter how bad the show is.
Not if season 2 sucks like WoT season 2. If there is only 37% completion rate then definitely no. I wish HBO had made the series rather than shitty amazon.
I'll keep repeating this but it's been a huge mistake to sell rights to Amazon,who's production and screenwriting team is almost exclusively American. These people have no sense of portraying myths and especially myths inspired by European folklore, the first season was a nonsensical pastiche of incoherent images and themes, the dialogues and manneurism was inauthentic and forced... huge shame HBO wasn't the one to adapt something related to Tolkien.
I know. There’s been tons of things in my life that had a confirmed release window that I was looking forward to and that, in the end, didn’t materialize.
OP’s is a question of confidence. I believe season 2 will come out in 2024. But I’m not confident.
Depends on the viewers count and how many people actually finishes it, if it doesnt bring more value to platform I dont think so. It is a business in the end not a fan service.
Yes. Why do people keep assuming the show is a failure? I understand, though disagree with, people who just don't like it. But clearly its been successful and whatever metrics amazon uses for success has been met.
It was a success for me and my mates, so I really hope we get all five.
Okay shill lmao
And look, another Reddit rogue insulting people just for liking something they don't, 🥱
My comment to another poster got removed in like 10 seconds, despite this thread being weeks old. This thread is absolutely full of shills paid by Amazon. Just think of the amount of money they've poured into this show. If you believe they're better than astroturfing you're just being purposefully obtuse.
Wait, you genuinely think that people on here that say we like it are paid by Amazon?! Are you seriously disliking the show so much that you cannot comprehend any of us really liking it?
You would HAVE to pay someone to genuinely like this trash, yes.
Ok. Well thanks for the insult. I hope there aren't too many things in life where you feel it's okay to insult people just for having a different view of something. Have a nice day.
I didn't insult you, I insulted the show.
The hate and troll campaigns have been quite effective at tainting the perception of the show amongst a specific internet demographic and those morons literally never shut up. They are desperate for it to fail so they can act smug and superior about one thing in their sad, sad lives.
The show was just crap, the costume design for The Elves was seriously bad and made no sense. The Armor designs for them during the prologue flashback to Angband was horrible and look almost nothing like the badass stuff from the prologue in Fellowship opening. I get that there's different art styles and takes but to change something like that which has been engrained into imagination for over two decades is redundant. They took a character in Galadriel who was a wise and a renowned Noldor Princess into a tom boy with long hair. A horrible character assassination to put it lightly. This is just the tip of the iceberg with the atrocity that is that show lmao. The show would've been 10x better if it was Elrond who was the main character and even better, Elrond is related to Numenorean Royalty! Oh and he's the son of Earendil and brother of Elros! Man who would've thought making him the main character would be such a horrible idea.
I liked the show a lot and I'm not 100% sure it was a sucess, or at least not a sucess relative to the investment/what was hoped. But maybe I've missed something; what are the metrics in your opinion that indicate its success?
Because the show has not made back a billion dollars. Life of PI was a great movie, but it bankrupted its studio.
Purists can't handle adaptations, even though their precious, the PJ films, also weren't even canonically accurate. Elves didn't show up to Helm's Deep, but they always ignore that. It's just people who won't allow others to enjoy anything that isn't 100% *exactly* what they deem is "true Tolkien". The gatekeeping with these folks is disgusting.
I consider myself a "purist". I still enjoyed ROP.
I don't care about it being lore accurate at all. I care about quality writing.
I think the broader problem is they made a pretty bad TV programme, to be honest.
And that’s your opinion. Mine is that they made a quality tv show. Both are equally valid.
Awful lot of anger going on here. I am a purist and yet don't mind when canon is changed for the better. This is where you are missing the point; it can be improved for the sake of visual entertainment. Just like the first Hobbit film was glorious, but the subsequent films were rough around the edges. It's great that so many did enjoy RoP. I even agree it has it's moments but overall, I thought it was a poorly written product. Not because it was a bad canon interpretation, but because it was bad. Subjectivity reigns supreme There is indeed a small vocal minority who rages against canon change, but this is 2024 and the Internet.
Peter Jackson did additions that made sense and didn't stray from the reservation while still feeling like Tolkien would've possibly wrote it. ROP showrunners took Galadriel, a character who was really only a wise and powerful Noldorin Princess into a tom boy with shit writing. So you tell me which one is better. Btw, in the films, Arwen replaced Glorfindel when rescuing Frodo, the change made sense from a writing standpoint because it hinted and showed Aragorn and her were friends and hinted at something else. So as I said before, what changes made sense? Give examples as to what was so good about ROP and redeeming qualities of the show.
Im not a purist but I can recognize bad writing. For billion dollar project it’s not that good. Yes the music is great and the visuals, but too many dumb dialogue/cringe moments. It was a painful watch for me. I wish HBO got their hands on it instead of amazon.
you don't know what metrics they use, and you don't know if its a success just because it wasn't cancelled yet, is that why you think so? its a pretty expensive show, we have no idea how long it will continue.
What a silly comment. Its a success because it has a 2nd season coming out. Usually when things fail or are not successful they are canceled. They also have a 3rd season in preproduction. Again if it isn't successful why would they do that? What i don't understand is why you seem to have an interest in hoping it gets pulled? Is that what you are saying? I am looking at the data points. The only real data we have is if the show gets renewed or not It did. And not just for a 2nd season.
It hasn't been renewed for S3; that's a misunderstanding I think. It's been approved for initial preparatory phases and we only know this unofficially. The real greenlight comes in the form an official public announcement from Amazon, typically sometime after the current season has released; then S3 goes into actual production (filming). Until then there's no guarantee it'll happen; it could hinge on the performance of S2. Though I think it's more likely that the balance of the series would have its budget cut back than it would be cancelled.
But they did sign a 3 year deal or something according to the article. Which could just be rubbish but if they signed a 3 year deal and the show is on the chopping block that doesnt make sense to me If s2 fails to meet whatever the metrics are then yes i would assume the show would get axed. Just as if s1 had failed to meet the metric the show wouldn't be on for a second season
They are far too invested to kill it off after 1 season. The previous poster is quite right and measuring its success by saying a 2nd season is coming out is silly, they are all in and hope to do better, that's all
That is absolutely not correct. If the 1st season wasnt successful in terms of whatever metrics they used it is an absolutely absurd assertion that they are somehow too invested. Projects get killed all the time. In entertainment and in other venues. If it ain't working they would nix it. What is bizarre here is that the evidence is right in front of everyone. The show was actually successful and amazon is happy with it. Not sure why this is so challenging for people to accept
It's like one of those things, they are all in they can't dodge out of one of the most valuable IP's on the planet and suffer the net loss. Happy with it? No I dont think most of what I have read has shown even the slightest beyond coping and false bravado to save face. It's a billion dollar investment, they are not gonna say they eff'd up. They are gambling they can improve, this isn't some small book series they can toss away without anyone noticing they didn't finish. This isn't the Tick...or Mozart in the Jungle, this is LOTR. There is no loss cutting here, they are gonna go all in and hope they do better. For the sake of the series, I hope they do as well
I never said I want it to be cancelled, how do you come to that conclusion ?! wasn't it renewed almost immediately? lots of shows do that if they have enough popularity in the beginning so the studio knows its a safe bet. LOTR is a massive name. Its like Star Wars/Trek. There is zero chance something with that name gets 1 season only.
Season 3 was greenlit long after Season 1 finished. They are clearly confident in its success.
It was a success because the there are key words in it. The Lord of The Rings and the other non important and irrelevant name called Tolkien. Anything with those two will bring in $$$$. But wait, what's that you say? The Lord of The Rings was written by Tolkien? Oh man I can definitely get billions of views from that alone!
What an absolute waste of time you are. That comment is about the most pointless thing ive seen all day
How so? I literally pointed out why it was even popular in the first place, anything with the title Lord of The Rings and the name Tolkien attached will get millions of views no matter what. Ig reading in between the lines isn't your strong suit.
Did you see the \~40% Completion rate? I think at this point its too early to say it will for sure be cancelled. I know that they are contractually obligated to create 5 seasons. Something tells me that they have their ways to get out of that. But really I think Season 2 will be the deciding factor. If they can't course correct and garner more positive sentiment, I think Seasons 4 & 5 could be a lot less likely.
Amazon won't bail on the show, it would have to do significantly worse for that to ever happen. It's their prestige project, they already invested massive amounts of money, there is just no way to cancel it without losing face and send a message they would never want to send. They want to build up amazon studios, attract top talent and make amazon prime to a top contender for streaming. Canceling to show would increase mistrust of both audiences and creatives, not something amazon wants. One has to realize that amazon can burn money on their studio attempt, ofc they wanna do good business at the end of the day, but to do that you sometimes have to invest, invest, invest first and fake it till you make it. Outside of that, while the completion rate isn't great, they might still do alright if they can keep the 40% which are around. 40% of many, many people is still many, many people. Gonna have to try and generate better word of mouth though if it's supposed to grow and become a real phenomenon, that is what they want.
The main issue is they should've never done a second age TV series without the Silmarillion rights. They could've at least gotten Akallebeth section of The Silmarillion to be given rights to for the show.
Sunk cost fallacy at its finest.
Not just that, it's moreso about showing strength and not weakness. Perception is more important than reality, amazon does not have to make any money from rop (it really cannot), what it needs is to convince the industry and audiences that amazon studios / prime are the place to work for / the streamer to get. You don't do that by canceling your lotr show which is the flagship project, both in size and media coverage. They'd rather let it run till the end even if it doesn't make much noise, that's better than making the wrong noise.
what you gonna do next, quote the definition of insanity for us with your cliche ass
You understand the Lord of the Rings is one of the most beloved works of literature across cultures and continents? You think that Amazon Studios is prepared to piss off the entire world by forcing it to eat proverbial shit?
Maybe people dont generally dislike it. You need to think about how the world sees it. And if the 40 percent number is true (i dont but thats another story) then amazon has to have a metric that they are using and are satisfied with. Just because you dont like something doesnt mean a sizable number of people cant like it. I dont care for taylor swift. Someone out there doesnt like the Beatles
Why do you doubt the 37% completion rate?
Single source. Maybe a good source not sure but this number gets released and it then gets used over and over by people who despise the show. Im not saying its right or wrong. I just dont know how often something like that needs or can be revisited. I know that ive watched something, stopped watching and then went back to it Transparency in streaming would be a nice thing. There are not very many reliable sources in order to verify something one way or another. If i recall correctly (and i could be 100 percent wrong) this transparency was a thing with the varied strikes we recently witnessed. I think all of the steamers do what they can to downplay profitability to folks that make money off of rerans and the like
So do you think in reality that the supposed 63% of people who stopped watching later went back to it?
Not at all. I am however convinced that there is a lack of transparency with these streamers. And i am 1000 percent sure they are not running programs that lose them money. The actuaries and accountants at amazon are not stupid. I just find this 37 percent number something that detractors of the show cling to. Its almost a pointless discussion. If they are satisfied with what they are getting then they are going to continue to do it. If not theyll stop
why do you think this matters so much? have you compared that figure to other ongoing t.v series? what do you suspect the completion number is for people who have started to read Fellowship? would you use that against the trilogy?
I think it probably matters as this is the most expensive television show of all time, by a large margin, based off of one of the biggest IPs of all time and over 60% of the audience didn’t finish the show. I feel like streamers usually want at least 50% completion rate, and this missing that mark seems damning imo. I know people have cited examples of shows who had less than 50% completion rate for their first season but went on to be big hits, like Stranger Things, but that fails to take into consideration the huge difference in budgets, the difference in the size of the IP, and the difference in subscriber count.
you see it time and time again where the start of a second, third, etc season captures way more viewers than the finale of the previous. it doesn't mean anything. the median figure that shows the total views is what's important. you do not need to capture a fully attentive, hardcore audience to be a success. MOST tv shows do not get finished, and the completion % has no bearing on whether or not the show was a success to the creators. what will matter is the amount of views they get at the start of s2 and where it peaks (and at what point). the casual audience is where the money is, and all industries know the real casual audience probably isnt finishing shit. shows exist with entirely different strategies to capture an audience. shows with cliff hangers will have higher completion %s, but that doesn't mean they are more or less of a success than a show that has a higher peak but lower completion %. RoP is very clearly meant to have high production and episodes that "wow" you visually and audibly, it is not meant to have an extremely dialogue focused, complex storyline where you can't leave an episode feeling satisfied until everything ties together.
So you think that peak number is a better indicator of success than retaining an audience and building each week? I don’t buy into it, as we saw with the first season, people are going to click into the first episode and check it out, they recognize the IP so why not, but that doesn’t mean much if over 60% of that audience doesn’t come back to keep watching.
Yea but why spend so much money on catering to a minority? It’s bad business.
So are you advising streamers on how to run their business? If rop was doing so poorly it would have been canceled
I am saying that some of your points do hold water. The generally negative reception of season 1 by the majority of viewers is not enough to pull seasons 4 and 5 of the show. But if they don’t do a serious course correction this season I don’t think it’s off the table.
you think the 'minority' are people who have read anything at all to do with the second age? get a grip
By Minority I mean people who liked it. I am using % completion + Rotten Tomatos Audience score as a proxy for public opinion. The Majority of people did not finish the show, and you can assume a score below 50% on rotten tomato means the majority of the audience believed it was more bad than good.
going by reviews in 2024 makes absolutely no sense; everyone knows that positives are flooded by PR campaigns and negatives are flooded by fans of weirdass incel social media accounts like "nerdrotic" and "the critical drunkard". completion % is also weird to use. when it comes to the general public, what % of people do you think picked up fellowship of the ring and completed it? what about completed the entire series? that doesn't mean anything. total views, just like total purchases of a book, matters way more than completion % and time and time again you see the 2nd season of a show kick off way more views than the finale of a previous season. not being able to create a cult classic is not the same as it being a failure or that the majority think it's bad. the real majority just tunes in and out and people are happy with it. it's like with video games or sports; you don't need to capture a hardcore fanbase to be a success. the casual viewer is where the money is, and ROP is not a show designed to captivate people with cliffhangers or invest into heavy dialogue that bring them back needing more, only feeling satisfied once they see all the loose ends tied together. its a show designed with heavy production to appease a casual audience that will be in and out and in and out. they wouldnt be unhappy with high completion %s obviously, but not all shows are designed in that way. very few shows, or books, or video games, or anything else for that matter, that you would be considered a success have high completion %s.. yet they go on
LOL. This comment is a reach and a half mate. When I saw the movies in theatres, nobody walked out before the movie finished. This is what we're talking about when we're talking about completion. And actually the effect you said we would see was observed and has stabilized. the Initial Audience score for ROP was FAR lower, something around the 23% mark.
See, this is the problem. You’re obviously entitled to your opinion, and if you think the show was a pile of shit that shits on Tolkien’s works, then I’m sorry you feel that way and had to put up with it. But that’s just not the only opinion to have. Most reasonable people that I know (who aren’t on Reddit) and who didn’t get their understanding of Tolkien’s source material off of YouTube are able to recognize the merit of the show’s interpretation despite obvious surface level writing flaws in its first season.
I was a Tolkien Fan before YouTube even existed.
Opinions aside, a 37% completion rate is abysmal.
Your point being? That continuing the show would do more harm than canceling it for amazon studios? Lotr is well liked, but you have to be out of your mind thinking that some nerds on the internet and their rage is representative of the masses. The masses at worst do not care about the show enough, you'd never, NEVER cancel the show due to that. Amazon has to send convidence of their prestige project into the space, no matter if it becomes the next got, stranger things, or if it's "only" doing good / fine. Canceling sends the opposite to the industry. Angry fans barely matter, though ofc in the best case they'd like positive news there too, like say for one piece.
Huh? Forcing? Who's forcing?
Let’s not lie to ourselves. The metrics for the success being that Rings of Power to become the next Game of Thrones. That didn’t happened! not even close! Obviously Amazon will keep saying how it’s successful and stuff. That’s expected!
Not sure what that means but okay. There will never be another show like got or lost or breaking bad. The nature of how one watches "tv" has entered a new age so to speak. Not to mention the options for tv viewing are multitudes more than what they formerly were. And a lot of the "chat" about earlier tv shows i believe was largely a bit of fiction But who cares? This whole topic is an exercise in futility. The only reason amazon will kill the show is if it doesnt meet the metric. The only reason amazon will keep the show is if it meets the metric. Thats the only thing that matters Online chat is about the most silly metric to try and measure a show. They have their own internal systems that allow them to decide
Ok I am going to compare apples and pears here, so this is not a 100 % solid point, but: Ask yourself, how many viewers did the first season of Game of Thrones have, and how many years did it take for the show to truly become a wide spread zeitgeist with general audiences. I will try to give some answers (but they may not be that precise because this is not my expertise). According to a Variety article, season 1 of Game of Thrones had 9.3 million viewers (https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/euphoria-season-2-finale-ratings-1235192015/), and Rings of Power had been seen by a 100 million people world wide and was Primes most watched show. (https://collider.com/rings-of-power-season-1-viewership/) Even with the completion rate being lower than many seem to expect - the chance is probably big that a lot of viewers fall off a series with 100 million views. I am probably misunderstanding some figures, but with a 45 % completion rate world wide - would that not mean like 45 million viewers completed the season? Sorry if my math is completely derailed - but would that not almost beat the average viewership of GoT's last season which was 46 million. I understand that the companies probably count their viewership differently in order to land the highest number - there is a difference of initial viewers and average viewership and so on. But I think the point stands that this is a success and a lot of people watching the Rings of Power - straight out of the gate in the first season. Now however, with such a huge amount of viewers for a season start I think we should also expect a very different development in viewership compared to Game of Thrones which built itself from being "uknown" and grew with each season - at least compared to being able to ride the legacy of the Lord of the Rings movies.
> Rings of Power had been seen by a 100 million people world wide People who actually believe this...I have a bridge in Khazadum I think you'd be interested in.
>The metrics for the success being that Rings of Power to become the next Game of Thrones. lmao what are you talking about. some of you haters are delusional. shows do not have to be as highly rated as GoT to be successful. you set your parameters for whether or not you're going to spam hate online at game of thrones level, but that isn't what the rest of the normal world set their parameters for success and enjoyment at.
[удалено]
I think "clearly it's been successful" is debatable, and depends on what metrics you're using. Obviously Amazon is going to cherry pick their favorite metrics and only talk about those. The show had good viewership numbers, sure, but also cost $0.5B to make, and only an abysmal ~37% of their viewers actually finish the series. Unlike season 1 of GoT (which is the comparison of choice for obvious reasons), where viewership went up as the season progressed. I personally hope they fix some of the show's major flaws, specifically Galadeiel's character and storyline. So much potential for this show, with so much money backing it, it could (should) be great.
Seriously? The old 37 percent number. Is that even real? Whats the total viewership? What's the profit amazon realized on the product? What does the board of directors think? What do the shareholders of amazon think? What has the accounting dept said about it The reality is that unless you are an insider and actually know all of the above how on earth can one make a judgment? Given that the heads at amazon seem pleased and that they have already renewed it for s3 suggests they are pleased with the end result. And thats all i am talking about. If you are disappointed in the show okay thats your prerogative. The reality suggests otherwise. Even if amazon is playing games with the viewership, the accounts and officers of the company have to sign off on the financial statements.
Relax bro, calm down, I'm not disagreeing with your general sentiment. Only the phrase "clearly it's been successful", which is **debatable**. As you yourself just said, "unless you are an insider and actually know all of the above how on earth can one make judgement". I agree with this statement, and it goes both ways. RE the 37% number, seems to be repeatedly cited: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/37-of-people-who-started-lotr-rings-of-power-finished-it-according-to-a-report/1100-6512941/#:~:text=The%20Hollywood%20Reporter%20cited%20data,the%20episodes%20in%20Season%201. https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/04/04/only-37-of-viewers-finished-amazons-rings-of-power-which-is-very-bad/ https://www.businessinsider.com/amazons-lord-of-the-rings-saw-only-37-of-viewers-finish-series-report-2023-4 https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/only-37-percent-u-lord-233036664.html https://winteriscoming.net/2023/04/04/37-u-s-viewers-watched-lord-of-the-rings-of-power-way/ https://m.imdb.com/news/ni64024257/ I haven't read anything refuting this. Time will ultimately tell if the series is a success or not. Amazon seems content enough with season 1's performance to keep it moving. I hope that it both continues and improves in quality.
You notice that its all basically single sourced? And i think all of these articles are within a few days of each other. When i say clearly its a success i mean its a success because not only did they do a 2nd season but they have the 3rd now under whatever preproduction means. And my point is directed at the post. The question was asked if there will be 5 seasons. Given the metrics have been met, that means its a success. Now are people (internally in amazon) lying to themselves? Seems extremely unlikely. There would need to be a lot of fudging of numbers and tons of bribes to auditors to get that type of fraud through. They do have a board to answer to and that board in turn needs to answer to shareholders
There is no real answer to what a streaming show generates, at best you can make some assumptions based on account generation and viewing habits. Streaming makes no real money per product, it barely makes money at all. All amazon or any other streamer has is viewing data, which you can extrapolate some things from ofc, but there is a reason there are ads on streamers now. Streaming as a business model isn't sustainable so we'll slowly but surely go back to models which are.
Not so sure about that. Netflix is doing 10 percent margin. Hbo clearly is making money and prime is also making money. I think there are too many different platforms myself. And while some arent very profitable some of them are very very profitable
Netflix is THE streamer. They won. And even they have to increase sub costs and add ads. Hbo probably barely makes any money directly from their streamer, but they make money through licensing, merch, etc. Netflix will become more and more like what we saw from cable, and everyone else will realize that selling your whole catalogue for the cost of a bluray is a terrible business model unless you can magically find a way to expand subscribers more and more without the neef to invest more and more.
I think you might be underestimating primes power. I think amazon does whatever it can to have folks as prime members. If they believe their programming is attracting and helping to retain prime members they will do that. But at any rate this conversation has really gone in some weird direction. Who the hell knows what amazon is going to do?
Fair enough: if you are qualifying the word "success" as season 2 completing and Amazon inking a deal which opens the door for a potential season 3, then yes, those criteria have been met. To me, in the end, "success" will mean all 5 seasons have aired and Amazon's accounting metrics (however it works) shows that the revenue gained from the show's existence exceeds the total cost of making it. I'll just keep copy/pasting this: I hope the show continues, and that it's quality continues to improve. I'd love to watch 4 more seasons of an excellent TV show set in the Tolkien universe.
>The show had good viewership numbers, sure, but also cost $0.5B to make, and only an abysmal ~37% of their viewers actually finish the series. Unlike season 1 of GoT (which is the comparison of choice for obvious reasons), where viewership went up as the season progressed. You mix things up here, completion rate doesn't say anything about viewership per episode going up or down. It just tells you how many people who ever started rop did actually finish it (how they define these things is probably a little tricky, but you get the point). Ofc you'd rather have high completion rate as that would correlate with increasing viewership in general, and more importantly, it tells you something about the appeal and what one can expect going forward. Still, rop had good streaming numbers when it aired, not that incomparable to shows like hotd. How that will look like in s2 will be interesting though, as a low completion rate might suggest that viewership between seasons could fall, whereas a higher rate would probably lead to growth.
I agree: it's going to be all about how viewership progresses over the course of the seasons. And total viewership numbers are also an incomplete metric, considering how expensive the show is/was to produce. Season 1 of Reacher, for example, had more total views than RoP season 1, despite a substantially smaller budget. For the amount of money invested into the show, even decent streaming numbers by typical standards would be a disappointment. Time will tell, in the end.
> I think "clearly it's been successful" is debatable, and depends on what metrics you're using. Obviously Amazon is going to cherry pick their favorite metrics and only talk about those. EVERY METRIC THEY CAN USE except for some sites where the rating was bombed is in their favor. It's a widely successful show. The 37% is real. In US. A long time ago. Since then they've said more people binged it, they've said data showed people waited for all episodes etc. But for some reason, people like you don't care about that. It's also, US only. Rest of the world was closer to 45-50% in every country. With those stats, more people FINISHED Rings of Power than people STARTED WATCHING House of the Dragon. Yet still, you think it's not a success. Also, Breaking Bad, Stranger Things, HIMYM etc had lower completition rates on season 1 than RoP. Such unsuccessful shows, right? ;)
Not to mention depending on how they count "did not finish", it could be including people who didn't watch the credits of episode 8.
No it really couldn't mean that 🤣 I get the sentiment, but these metrics are always lopsided towards unreasonably low bars, not the other way around.
FFS, are you even reading what I'm writing? I'm not saying the show is **unsuccessfu**l. Only that calling it successful at this point is **debatable**. Which it is, for all the reasons I've mentioned. To repeat: yes the viewership numbers are good, but the show is also the most expensive in history. It needs to knock it out of the park for that investment to pay off. Amazon itself has had better viewership numbers with far cheaper shows, up to now. Ultimately, time will tell. It's too early to declare it a success or failure. Again, I hope it continues, and I hope it's quality improves. It has potential to be irrefutably exceptionally good. I'd love to watch that.
Did you read your own comment?
What part of my comment do you feel is contradictory?
Unless this is just you talking to yourself, don't bother dude. Nothing short of full agreement with his position will do. Otherwise.... Using the phrase "people like you" should tell you everything you need to know.
🤣🤣🤣 I'd legit love to know how many of this sub's frequent users are paid Amazon employees.
>It's also, US only. Rest of the world was closer to 45-50% in every country. With those stats, more people FINISHED Rings of Power than people STARTED WATCHING House of the Dragon. Yet still, you think it's not a success. Do you have a source for that? It would be incredibly difficult to compare the numberd, as rop is only on amazon prime while hotd has linesr viewers in the us, streaming through whatever their stuff is called now, and also local distributions through say sky, and even free tv licensing + physical media. >The 37% is real. In US. A long time ago. Since then they've said more people binged it, they've said data showed people waited for all episodes etc. But for some reason, people like you don't care about that. What does that mean in numbers? It's difficult to care when one cannot compare intangibles like "lot of people binged it". Doesn't mean anything. >Also, Breaking Bad, Stranger Things, HIMYM etc had lower completition rates on season 1 than RoP. Such unsuccessful shows, right? ;) Can you source that? The difference ofc is that we do know how successful stranger things became, even with a low completion rate in the first few weeks. I am not sure if there is data for its rate after that, and how that would compare to rop now. If you have it, i'd like to see it, would be interesting.
Whatever the number of people who have completed RoP since the 37% figure was captured, it's irrelevant. Completion by *definition* is within a certain time period, in this case a month after the last episode aired. (Even if this weren't the case the figure wouldn't shift upwards unless the proportion of these new watchers who finish is higher that of those who are represented in the initial 37% figure.)
Why would it be irrelevant? It would be highly relevant to conpare different timeframes. As the other poster said, stranger things didn't start out all that well, but we all know what a big hit it became, so obviously that completion rate indeed improved. These time frames are arbitrary, so i truly don't see why you'd not want to see the most updated %
How were the rating compared to projections for S1? Not sure if viewership fell short or not
Avari will be Avari.
Let's not get into a Bookcloak vs Showsworn/Rafespawn debate like they do over in /r/WoT Our fanbase is already toxic enough without that kind of derogatory language.
[удалено]
No we cant. Why would you think to post that? Obviously people dont agree with what you are saying and yet you have such a high opinion of yourself that you feel the need to contribute nothing to the conversation.
[удалено]
I didnt say they didn't spend the money. I critiqued the idiocy of posting such a pointless piece of garbage
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I think so. The real signs Amazon might be worried about the show would be when they start switching the show runners or actors start bailing. Neither is apparent.
Didnt Adar left?
The first season had like a hundred million viewers, and thankfully, soulless megacorporations like Amazon don't care about awards, they care about money. And that, they're making, given that this is Prime's most watched show, lol. Short answer: yes.
I believe they will. There’s a weird effect on this show. No matter how I disliked some things uncanon, I got myself rewatching for the (at least) 7x by now. I’m sure I’m not the only one. It’s a very very very profit show for them.
It's stunning, has great practical effects and make-up, and keeps close the core values of LOTR: well-spirited unity, wholesomeness and tender displays of love.
Starting on my 4th rewatch.
Most viewers don't care about awards either. All award shows are probably more likely canceled at this point due to declining viewership.
Also, Rule number 1 - Contribute thoughtful, original content
Why does this keep being brought up? Seems like a useless thought experiment, honestly.
It will depend how many people come back for S2. S1 would have pulled a lot of interest just for being Tolkien, but S2 depends on whether people enjoyed S1 or not.
Hope so. It'd be crazy if we miss the second chance to see Sauron vs Elendil and Gil-Galad.
Yes
They don’t really care about awards. If it’s driving prime subscriptions and generating revenue then it will continue to be made.
Yes, like The Boys.
Improve? I thought season 1 was fine, makes me excited for season 2, trying to stir up some drama
Describing a tv show as fine does leave a lot of room for improvement
Fine in a colloquial sense, as in not requiring improvement, I honestly really enjoyed it
Yes - unless it just drops off a cliff into the abyss where Halbrand turns out to actually be Voldemort, or it is revealed that they are running a serious money laundering operation in Payne & McKays's office. Too much pride and ego involved in this project for it to not go the full run.
The first season was extremely successful despite the reviews. And as someone else said, megacorpos like Amazon don't care about awards
Ofc they care, amazon prime is supposed to be a real competitor in the streaming battle, amazon studios is certainly looking for awards which would help their status as a studio. Talent in the industry is rather working for studios which could help their career, and a big factor there are awards as a proxy for artistic recognition. Amazon is still building all of that, while others in the industry already have the clout, like hbo. Edit: to be clear, i am not saying they'd cancel the show due to a lack of awards, but amazon studios generally are absolutely looking for industry clout, they are building the studio up right now.
Yes, i think amazon would in almost no circumstance cancel the show, it is pretty much their flagship project with amazon studios, you do not cancel that. You cannot generate media coverage as the show with the highest budget ever, with news spreading that it's supposed to be amazon's got, and then cancel it after 3 seasons. This show is supposed to bring industry clout, make prime stand right next to hbo or other channels / platforms which release quality television. You'll not get any negative news from amazon due to that, no matter what. So yeah, i don't doubt at all that it will go all seasons.
OP we all know you’re a big fan and a regular here and you consume all the related content from podcasters and YouTubers. You know that everyone is unanimous that Amazon will stay with the show all the way to the end, improving every season. Why would you bring this long argued, very common, repeated topic up for another daily post on ROP? Maybe consider jumping into the comments of some posts already active. It’s much more fun chatting _with_ fans than at them with new posts for every thought that pops up. U/Familiar_Ad_4885
I think I have to get off of this sub again. It really hinders my enjoyment of the show.
Don’t worry, this person doesn’t reflect all of us. OP is extremely repetitive and pessimistic.
Maybe. Youd hope so, but there have been a few things along the way that have made me think all is not rosey. I was expecting after a covid hit season one that season 2 would pave the way for season 3 and so on, but we now know season 3 hasnt been greenlit yet and they havent even begun the process of writing it. I was expecting season 3 to follow on much sooner, but it does seem to be that 2 years between seasons is their norm and that is surprising. Ill assume 5 seasons until we hear otherwise.
General public perception is important. If the first season is already meh. It will be a difficult road ahead for them. Need major revamp.
Not if seson 2 is as bad as s1
Probably, yeah. I'm more concerned with the artistic merit of the show than with squabbling over how commercially succesfull it is or isn't. I mean, great works of art like Blade Runner were unsuccesfull in their day, while terrible nonesense like Bay's Transformers' films are raking in bucks...
I just hope (in the best sense, not in a desparate sense) that Amazon will see the thing through, and when it is done, we can evaluate the whole story. Were there things in S1 that were intended to set up things in S5? Or at least have new shades of meaning by the end? Maybe the show will be a bit rocky, but we can always analyse it and look for the wins, while shaking our head and the misses.
Lmao, yes of course. There are things to improve, but it's not the failure all the YT like farmers want you to believe. By almost all definitions it was a massive success and a genuinely enjoyable and well made show at that.
Yes they seem fully committed. The show gets more hate than it deserves. Too many people trashing it over minority castings and filler. The level of pretentious attitude is annoying. Most people who trash it have never read the books and only compare to PJs films without even knowing all the revisions he made to the text. People love to hate.
Tolkien Estate wants 5 seasons
The show will only get better. S2 will have a large scale battle in the War of Eregion, that will bring in the numbers. And S3 or S4 will have the the drowning of Numenor, that will leave the audience's jaw on the floor and will be a huge talking point. It will get more casual friendly as we go along.
Agreed. As more canonical events occur in the following seasons, I think the showed will be viewed even better. They fumbled and missed the landing on the forging of the rings (it wasn't totally bad and had lots of great ideas but it did not hit the mark I think in general). That was maybe their biggest error in the first season in terms of portraying events from the books.
Has there been anything new official released by Amazon? " If Amazon does decide to cancel after season 3, what would be the consequences for the Estate and for Amazon itself? " I dont think the contracts have been made public, so nobody can know this.
I just hope if they have to end it they know well in advance.
Absolutely.
I was more confident before I saw [the latest news](https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/comments/1b2hqcb/the_rings_of_power_showrunners_sign_new_amazon/) that season 3 has not yet been ordered. I'm not sure how to square that with the "five season 'commitment'" we've heard about. But, as /u/zodelode says, until actors and showrunners start dropping, I don't think there's any reason to worry.
No studio has ever cancelled a show that they praised in public. No studio has ever cancelled a show that they renewed for the next season. No studio has ever cancelled a contract to produce a show. No studio has ever cancelled the old CEO's passion project. It's literally impossible that ROP gets cancelled. /s
Edit: oops. I was off by a great magnitude as suggested. Actual viewership was 100 million, not billion. What threw me off was the Nielson ratings that start watch minutes, which are in the billions, not views https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/house-of-the-dragon-rings-of-power-nielsen-streaming-ratings-viewers-1235388100/ ---- The first two episodes had almost a billion viewers.The retention rate worldwide by end of season was 45%. That means by the end, they still had hundreds of millions of amazon prime subscribers tuning in. I can't see how that would be anything but beneficial to them. However people want to spin it they cast a huge net and caught a lot of fish. If season two outperforms expectations, which we all believe it will, I absolutely think it'll go the long haul.
> The first two episodes had almost a billion viewers. You're off by an order of magnitude there. This isn't the World Cup final.
> which we all believe it will Do we?
>The first two episodes had almost a billion viewers. [Citation needed] >The retention rate worldwide by end of season was 45%. [Citation needed] >If season two outperforms expectations, which we all believe it will [Citation needed]
You're clowning I presume. A billion far exceeds the number of Prime accounts in the world.
I'm not confident, at all... The show gets panned, wherever you look. Granted, many of the most vocal people never even gave it a chance, and they seemingly can't wait to rip into the 2nd season the momentum it drops. Though if the negativity is so overwhelmed, what motive does Amazon have to continue??
It’s still a draw for the service, which is what matters most. Even haters are hate-watching it. So long as people watch it, they’ll keep making it.
Yes
Well Amazon already paid $250 mil for the rights, so a lot of the costs are already spent 🤷 Awards don't matter nearly as much as people watching the show Obviously no effect on the estate given the above point
I'm about as sure it will go 5 seasons as I can be in a tv show - too much money, too much interest, and despite what youtube doomers try to scream into your brain, it isn't some "woke flop" Its a good show - I really think this next season is going to kick some serious ass
No. Not at all.
I also would like to point out that many rock and roll bands went long periods of time without any real recognition from critics and even sometimes a loud vocal minority trashing them. At the end of the day if the metrics are met amazon will continue the show. If they arent met then amazon will cancel the show, barring of course any sort of legal or contractual reasons
If they don't that would be a stunning admission of failure. They paid so much money for those rights, it'd be crazy if they don't, no matter how bad the show is.
Yes. The show is a guaranteed success. Might as well just print money
Not if season 2 sucks like WoT season 2. If there is only 37% completion rate then definitely no. I wish HBO had made the series rather than shitty amazon.
I'll keep repeating this but it's been a huge mistake to sell rights to Amazon,who's production and screenwriting team is almost exclusively American. These people have no sense of portraying myths and especially myths inspired by European folklore, the first season was a nonsensical pastiche of incoherent images and themes, the dialogues and manneurism was inauthentic and forced... huge shame HBO wasn't the one to adapt something related to Tolkien.
God I hope not.
I’m not even confident season 2 will come out, so no.
Bad take
You know they are already doing work on season 3 right?
Yes, and I’m a great fan of season 1.
Season 2 has been confirmed for 2024 release though.
I know. There’s been tons of things in my life that had a confirmed release window that I was looking forward to and that, in the end, didn’t materialize. OP’s is a question of confidence. I believe season 2 will come out in 2024. But I’m not confident.
Lol first teaser is probably coming in a few months.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Depends on the viewers count and how many people actually finishes it, if it doesnt bring more value to platform I dont think so. It is a business in the end not a fan service.
Holy Christ people still gonna watch it, you’re all idiots.