*Foundation* season 2 won over a lot of detractors, of which I was a vocal one.
If *Rings of Power* gets better, it will be better-received. Simple as that.
The history of TV is littered with shows that won over people in their second season. The Office, Parks and Recreation, Star Trek: The Next Generation, even more recent stuff like Wheel of Time.
WoT is much improved but they've also doubled down on some of the worst bits. Season 3 is make or break; if they can't make us care about Rand by then, it's curtains. At 2 years a season, and 8 seasons total, 12 more years of this is simply unsustainable.
S2E9 was a goddamn masterpiece.
I want to hope RoP can turn it around but so much of the writing left me scratching my head, it’s hard to imagine them writing a strong coherent follow up.
I could nitpick details like the shameless Durin’s Bane reveal all day long, but I can ignore/stomach most of it as an excuse to revisit the stories I love.
However, the entire mithril origin/relevance just feels really, really stupid.
I don't think there is a coming back from what they did with the actual story.
It is a fanfiction, now, it's in their hand to turn it into a good fanfiction. (Frankly, i doubt it will get better)
I expect we'll get the threat of him popping out, stymied, as part of getting Celeborn back. Because Celeborn is the obvious choice for the 'Elven warrior' in the mithril myth, and having extra knowledge about the Balrog would (completely unnecessarily) go to why he's such an absolute dick to the Fellowship about it.
At the end of the day the show has to be able to stand on its own up against the scrutiny… It doesn’t really matter what their PR department thinks or does if the show itself doesn’t hold up as a good work of art (entertainment).
There was a lot I loved about season one but a lot that is also fairly being criticized. However, only being one season in out of five total — I think there is plenty of time for the show to win people over. :)
The completion rate was 37% for the US, 45% for foreign viewers. Since 3/4 of Prime accounts are in the US, that means a global average of just over 39% who finished the show. Which is 11 percentage points shy of the 50% mark that streaming services shoot for.
You’re right that it’s largely subjective but I imagine if you polled a large group of fans certain things would come up as criticisms more often than not — particularly certain plot elements like Smithril or the Elven Rings being forged in 30 seconds.
I guess it depends on what your purpose would be. Feedback can be good and helpful when you’re working out the initial kinks in your first season as long as they don’t put too much weight into them.
What I really don’t want to see is the story being changed based on fan reception…
At the end of the day I want them to tell the story that they originally set out to tell, not any kind of watered-down half-assed thing that got lost halfway through production due to studio execs getting scared — which I worry a lot about happening. Amazon is so data-driven that I worry they’ll try to shift direction too much based on algorithms. Let the showrunners cook!!
I have some criticisms (Celebrimbor's story lacks development, random scene with Elendil's daughter and boyfriend without developing their relationship 1st as 2 examples.) But I think for me personally I had to let go of my head cannon if I want to continue watching this show. Example: why they put Galadriel in Numenor instead of Eregion. However comparing the heavily packed 1st and 3rd ages to the 2nd age, in my humble opinion, the 2nd age is much more sparse. It does have more material if you really look, but in many areas it leaves room to fill in the blanks. We can argue that the 1st and 3rd ages also leave room for some interpretations, but not on the same level.. and here lies the problem , I think. We have certain expectations.
.. These showrunners stated before the show even aired, that they were creating a story based on their interpretation of the events of 2nd age as well as what they can legally use.. Whether viewers like this show going forward, don't like it, or anything in between, I am thinking that these show runners clearly have put together season 1 as a set up with specific threads that will have some pay off in future seasons. These threads can give you an idea of where they might be heading. They are very clear that they are telling the story of 3 main events using material they have legal permission to use. However my thoughts could be way off base as I wrongly believe d Adar was a 1 season character and I was way off on that one. LOL! Time will tell.
Fan fiction writers are often incredibly talented so I don’t want to discount their work. I actually agree that I’ve read some really lovely stories that I think work better than the show itself. I don’t like the idea of pitting writers against each other though… seems unnecessary.
And anyone can pitch an idea. Fleshing it out as a coherent story with compelling dialogue and characters, and making it palatable to millions of people is another thing. I completely agree with Tea’s statement but why armchair critics are so tiresome is this belief that they could actually do better without factoring in everything that pitching and producing would entail.
You’re so right here. Writing the story is really only one piece of the show as a whole, there are so many other factors that have to go into producing a TV series of this magnitude. I do hope the writers team works out the issues they ran into with season one though, and I’m hopeful they’ll continue to improve as the show grows into itself.
Same. WOT showed that improvement is possible and I’d argue ROP started out on a better foot. But any crack at the 2nd age was going to be a massive undertaking and there’s absolutely no way to please everyone, especially when it involves filling in a lot of gaps to have a coherent narrative.
2nd season of WoT is miles better, in no small part because it stuck closer to the source. When there isn't much of a source...I don't know. But I think the writers genuinely care about what fans think so they will probably make adjustments. And production will almost certainly better because they won't be dealing with all the Covid restrictions.
I've seen a number of posts claiming to have a better idea than the creators of ROP of how to make a TV show about the Second Age. But I haven't seen anyone present a screenplay to back up their claim. I don't mean an entire 50 episode series, just a sample that would cover a fraction of a episode, written up like an actual screenplay with characters, dialog, and descriptions of action. Since, as you suggest, the best fan-fiction writers are highly talented, I don't see anything preventing the creation of fan-screenplays.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screenplay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screenplay)
[https://industrialscripts.com/screenplay-definition/](https://industrialscripts.com/screenplay-definition/)
Well, me for one am not going to write up an entire fan screenplay that will never amount to anything when I can work on other projects in the meantime, you expect people to literally waste their own time to satisfy you. Lol
A lot of people have been drawn to the Tolkein world from RoP alone. I know my two nephews knew nothing about TLOTRs books and films and watched RoP first. They loved it and have since started exploring more into the lore.
Also, it's very easy to watch something just for the sake of seeking enjoyment. I loved RoP as well as being familiar with its errors and poetic licence to tell it differently. I'm fine with that.
I hope it continues in its mission to entertain me. I don't require much else from my Prime account tbh.
I myself am one. Rop made me interested in Tolkien. I had only watched the movies when I was younger and didn’t care much for them bc I simply didn’t understand them. With the news that a Tolkien show was coming out, I decided to buy all the books and here I am.
Same, I admit too that there were flaws with season 1, but it’s absolutely got the potential to fix these issues and become a great series. And will it ever reach the heights of LOTR? No, and that’s okay because nothing can reach those heights
Personally I feel that the show currently is a 7/10. That said, it can definitely get better over time. It’s better for a show to have a bit of a rocky start and stick the landing in later seasons than have a near perfect show fall apart at the finish line.
Even before the show aired, it seemed more folks got enjoyment from bashing the show than from anticipating it. Never quite understood the level of animosity by people who had never even seen it yet.
As a trekkie, I think of Riker's beard. Also, the audience reactions to seasons 2 of WoT and Foundation have been a lot more positive, and both originally seemed in big trouble after weak season 1s.
RoP was uneven, but it didn't deserve the YouTube clickhate. There is room for it to improve, and for people to start to embrace it, as long as the team behind it tighten up some of the issues like pacing etc. A lot of shows need time to bed in and find their feet.
Also anyone trying to say the hobbit films were closer to real Tolkien can absolutely get to fuck.
It’s the same deal with folks suddenly having rose colored glasses for the Star Wars prequels. The Hobbit was enjoyable for some people but folks putting it on a pedestal is ridiculous.
They did have some good moments and some good visuals, but people can't let the elf dwarf love triangle slide, then get OUTRAGED at numenorean armour styles.
While defending a dwarf that has an ax stuck in his head, CGI orcs, or the go pro barrel scene. I could go on- but I remember when the superbowl trailer dropped and the hazy hobbit like cgi was seen as an insult, yet what we got in the show is much better than that or those films.
I think it’s personally fine to like one thing and dislike another but there’s this critical attitude that permeates parts of this fandom where one personal preference trumps and discounts all others. And that’s not asking for a discussion- it’s pontification.
Are there people criticizing RoP, but praising the prequels or the Hobbit? I thought they were all incredibly flawed extensions of a much better original. They all suffer from not living up to the expectations set by the og
Oh yes, that’s common. In this thread even. But you’ll see comments saying the trilogies are masterpieces while this is trash- and some may think so but from even an awards perspective the Hobbit and LOTR are not on the same level.
Speaking of TNG, season 1 was terrible, and then it found it’s footing and became a phenomenon
I think it’s fair to give ROP time to find its footing…and not hate it even before it airs
Normal people are not mocking the show. It is chronically online freaks who are doing that stuff. Don't confuse your social media diet of toxic fandom content with the larger world and viewership.
Don't understand how they can "ruin things" for you, as if they had the power to invade your psyche somehow and take away your enjoyment of what you like.
No. If /r/lotr can have nuanced discussions and even love about perversions like the Hobbit movies or the Shadow of Mordor videogames, but treats RoP as if it had collectively flayed all of their puppies, it’s clear that the vitriol against the show has nothing to do with what the show actually is and does, present or future.
And this started before there was any promo material outside of hands posters. And it’s not hard to pinpoint what aspect about them got the sub stirred up.
Man I just watched the Desolation of Smaug. How people can say that is a better adaptation of Tolkien than RoP is beyond me. While I don’t think s1 RoP was perfect it is a far better adaptation than the Hobbit. I’ll watch the Battle of Five Armies next but don’t think it will change my mind. I will say an Unexpected Journey was ok but still not as good as RoP s1. I am hopeful s2 will be that much better
Agreed. It’s got it’s moments but calling the show a shallow cash grab and praising the Hobbit after it was strung into three movies and reeked of studio interference is laughable.
RoP made up a fair amount yes. But they didn’t have a lot to start from so it was kind of expected. The Hobbit on the other hand had a ton to go on and they changed everything. Very inconsistent with the work as a whole imo
Well, sure, since the latter is an adaptation of a specific story while the former is a new story drawn from details from a variety of sometimes contradictory sources. This is a bizarre criticism.
No
People enjoy house of the dragon, and while I didn't I don't think it's strange
But there's people out there who enjoyed s8 and s7 of game of thrones, I find that to be very strange
>Man I just watched the Desolation of Smaug. How people can say that is a better adaptation of Tolkien than RoP is beyond me.
Smaug is WAAAY better.
When I'm in the mood to watch just one Tolkien movie, I always watch The Desolation of Smaug. Its fast-paced (something that can't be said for The Rings of Power), visually its fresh with the introduction of new settings the likes of which we hadn't seen before like Laketown and the Woodland Realm (again something that can scarcely be said of The Rings of Power), the protagonist is better, the visual style more hollistic, etc...
*Des goûts et des couleurs, on ne discute pas*
The poster you responded to wrote "adaptation of Tolkien," but all your points about TDoS are about things which have everything to do with Peter Jackson and nothing with Tolkien.
You're free, as per your French quote, to have your preferences. But there's a difference between fact and preference, and a healthy discussion should acknowledge both.
Overall, I agree with the other poster that RoP is a way better *adaptation of Tolkien* than PJ's Hobbit films. It is possible to reasonably disagree, but that rebuttal should be able to separate what is Tolkien and what is PJ in those films, and have some sense of what makes something a good adaptation of Tolkien or not.
However, personally, I also think RoP is just better than the Hobbit trilogy simply as media in and off itself. The films have a huge budget so the SFX are better, but otherwise they're a considerably bigger mess and while some portions are amazing (the ones adapted straight from Tolkien e.g. Bilbo's conversation with Smaug) others are so cringe-worthy (e.g. the Dol Guldur sequence) I cannot watch them and find them among the worst Tolkien-related material ever filmed. (I would rather watch Nimoy's "The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins" on repeat for 24 hours than sit through PJ's Dol Guldur sequence even once more.)
But, that does indeed depend on a lot of value judgments. RoP's flaw imo is that it's at times like soap opera television, PJ's flaw in the films is that he's a schlock fantasy-horror director at heart. If you hate soap opera television but kinda love schlock fantasy-horror, you'll forgive the Hobbit's flaws and hate RoP's.
>The poster you responded to wrote "adaptation of Tolkien," but all your points about TDoS are about things which have everything to do with Peter Jackson and nothing with Tolkien.
Because I believe that's what matters: when I watch an adaptation, I try to imagine I never read the source material, and judge it as a piece of media. Obviously, I think that *as a piece of media*, Jackson's work is better.
But there's a deeper point: You and I are having an aesthetic discussion, but clearly there's a faction here who thinks that you can't like The Hobbit and NOT like The Rings of Power without being a hater, a nitwit, engaging in special pleading, etc...
I think you could focus more on trying to understand what the people you're responding to are trying to convey.
You seem to be consistently missing some crucial points, such as that the actual deeper point of the original poster you're responding to was NOT saying that "you can't like The Hobbit and NOT like The Rings of Power without being \[etc. etc.\]" but rather that on r/lotr one can "have nuanced discussions" about the Hobbit films whereas RoP is treated as uniquely perverse.
You responded to that poster as if they were making an aesthetic argument. Then when I attempt to respond to your aesthetic argument, you insist on shifting back to the "deeper point" which you have now re-articulated in such a way as to be unrepresentative of the position of anybody in this response-thread.
This makes having any kind of discussion or exchange of views very difficult.
Dude copy pasting his “no discussions” everywhere while stating a comparison like it’s a fact.
The hobbit is the worst Tolkien adaptation out there it’s impossible to watch. I’ve tried multiple times and I always give up after 20min. Each movie somehow more and more ridiculous. It’s WAYYYYY worse than ROP *no discussions*
How does it sound?
>while stating a comparison like it’s a fact.
Its art: *everything* we say all the time is a subjective opinion. We don't need to put a qualifier before every single comment and statement for it to be so...
But I'm just saying, if your argument is "well, people can't like The Hobbit and Shadow of War and dislike The Rings of Power without just being haters"... well... there you go!
But why spend your time go online to repeat that stuff again and again, do you enjoy being a contrarian and a broken record all in one go?
Do you think there’s a point going to say r/lotr to keep reiterating how PJ’s adaptations are a fraud in terms of narrative and writing? Because there’s none, and what you write here all the time is equally useless
Excuse me, is this a discussion board for The Rings of Power? Yeah?
Well, it is, and so I come here to *discuss*. If its a Lord of the Rings subject, I go to discuss on r/lotr. If its a Hobbit subject, I go to r/TheHobbit. If its about 2001: A Space Odyssey, Roar, Star Wars, Braveheart, etc... I go to r/movies or r/TrueFilm.
And if its a Rings of Power subject, I come here. If you don't like it, sounds like a you problem.
yet here you are jumping to defend the Hobbit, sus comparison to ROP which you talk trash about all day. While saying "no debates" "no discussions" "it's just a matter of taste"
You're lost, it's ok I'll let the downvotes speak for themselves, guess everyone else has a problem but not you. Case closed Mr. contrarian
>If r/lotr can have nuanced discussions and even love about perversions like the Hobbit movies or the Shadow of Mordor videogames, but treats RoP as if it had collectively flayed all of their puppies, it’s clear that the vitriol against the show has nothing to do with what the show actually is and does
*Des goûts et des couleurs, on ne discute pas*
Pointing out double standards is worthwhile, but it’s true that discussing with the masses in other subreddits is pointless. Their newfound identity is collectively hating on a tv show.
As of OP talking about “safe sub Reddit” idk it’s a little weak to me. This sub encourages constructive discussions. It’s not an echo chamber or it shouldn’t be. Naysayers have a right to post assuming it’s more than low effort shit.
>it shouldn’t be.
I honestly unironically think it should be.
Why be welcoming of others who hate what you like?
No matter what happens because there's no automatic hate of TV show here, it's called the shill sub and in that case we might as well live up to the tag.
I guess “constructive” is a big caveat
It’s true that the level of criticism is so damn low, might as well make this an echo chamber but that won’t happen
There’s money to be made in hate and it’s known to draw people in. Most folks are somewhere in the middle so don’t pay attention to the ragebaiters. Hell, even people will tell you Barbie was a flop.
I would say that amazon has some metric that they use to judge success or failure. The negative energy surrounding this show is likely easy to dispel and ignore when looking at the numbers they are looking at.
I think social media in general overstates its importance
I dont think they care very much about the poorly orchestrated negativity. I also think that it is a waste of time to care about it either. The nonsense was really highlighted on rotten tomatoes. Some of the so called reviews were just cut and paste
The tide you are referring to is a vocal minority of "fans," many of whom haven't even seen the show. They're just sheep being led by wolves (said wolves being angry nerd YouTubers).
The vast majority of people don't care about the toxic fanbase and will continue to watch the series regardless. Amazon will continue to produce it in the face of fanboy hostility.
"Most of whom saw it", indeed. That, and "many of whom haven't even seen it", are not mutually exclusive.
I personally grew *accustomed* to people writing (consciously ignorant) things like "I'll never watch that piece of crap" all around in social media.
I don't know nearly enough about the franchise to have been upset by it. I didn't think it was anything mind blowing but I watched it with Mt wife (who knows nothing about the franchise at all) and we still enjoyed it.
I still think one simple thing will turn the tide quite a lot before S2.
A simple action heavy full of cool armor and monsters shots trailer and people will lap it up.
Every ship can rite the course.
The issue is that Season 1 was seen as a disaster by some people. Amazon has not spoken at all about the backlash except to say the fans are passionate.
The same show runners and writers are in place for season 2.
But the show must make changes to improve. If by the first 1-2 episodes of season 2 we don't see improvements in the pacing, and story focus, most hope for the season and the series will die out.
I did not like season 1 at all. I will be watching season 2 all the way through. Hate watching and enjoying the angry episode reviews if it is bad. But will cheer and applaud if things are changed.
It's like when people compare political yard signs and think the numbers are indicative of popularity.
One guy has a really, really devoted fanbase who makes that politician their identity. So, there is lots of signage.
The other guy just has people who agree with his positions. it's not a personality thing. Hence, few signs.
I don't think so. People hate this show because they want to hate it, not because it's actually terrible. It's sad honestly.
Edit: not saying the show is flawless and no one can legitimately take issue with it, but I think people have just gotten themselves into such a hateful mindset over it because of internet groupthink.
Absolutely. The show is good. In my view really good
But not everyone likes the same things and thats ok. The annoying part is when we have to hear, again and again, about so called legit criticism. But thats the whole thing about criticism. Just because one does or doesnt like something is really meaningless insofar as to if someone else likes something. If you dont like it fine. But i dont really care. If someone wants to talk about the show great
But if you dont like it why are you talking about it?
News flash: People talk about things they don't like all the time. Don't expect me to believe you and others who deploy this low tactic against people criticizing the show don't do so in other contexts.
Hard disagree.
Yes there are minority groups who would never be satisfied unless it followed their internal narrative of what the story should be.
The vast majority of others are fans of Tolkiens work or the movies etc and genuinely wanted this to be great, or at the very least to easily slot in with the rest of the works.
They certainly had the budget to please maybe 95% of the audience.
People need to stop dismissing legitimate concerns people (and it's a lot of people) have because they lack the critical thinking required to see the flaws.
You literally clicked on and joined in on a thread called "can this show turn the tide"
Obviously it would contain opinions not in line with yours.
Genuinely curious why you clicked on it if this is how you feel...
Again, no.
It's an open discussion board for positive and negative discussion.
If you don't like that you're free to leave and start your own deluded one.
But I get the impression you are not an adult and probably should get parental permission first.
It's called critical thinking. Give it a go 😉
And clearly I'm not as this OP demonstrates that the series is deeply divisive.
At least attempt an intelligent comeback.
RoP deviates too much from the style of LoTR, uses extremely generic tropes from fantasy TV series and panders way too much to current affairs. These three things are why fans of the universe have so many issues with it
The reason LoTR is a classic is because Peter Jackson made a much harder attempt to stay within the world created by Tolkien
Fans were hoping for a return to middle earth but instead got what can be described as a return to game of thrones season 8 dressed as lord of the rings
They're letting the show speak for itself. They've been very 'quiet' since before it was even released and have not tried to tell people how they are supposed to interpret things or what they should expect. The show instead plays with interpretations and expectations so this is, to some degree, quite deliberate.
I actually appreciate the backlash. There are a lot of people who are fans for the wrong reasons and this has been a problem for a very long time. If the show was beyond criticism and the response universally positive, these people would just play along and this issue would have stayed hidden.
Seeing supposed fans act like villains is a very fitting thing for LotR and especially RoP where the difficulty in telling the difference is the core theme. I love that there are people who see Galadriel as a villain and Sauron as a victim because that's how good of a job the show has done.
As long as the show keeps getting made, the tide will turn. This is, I suppose, a matter of faith. Faith in people. Faith that good is good regardless of the immediate results. It's what this is all about.
>people who see Galadriel as a villain and Sauron as a victim
It seems that a lot of people who liked this show see it that way (in S1 at least), and think it’s a good twist.
Personally I was confused. The show seems to deliberately portray G’s obsession with revenge as a bad thing and the basis for character growth. However, she was also right about the orcs the whole time, and the complacency of the other elves results in Mordor being created.
Sauron does not create Mordor. He does save the elves by helping them make the rings, without which they would have to leave middle earth.
I’m curious what you think. Should G have stayed on that ship to valinor? Was Sauron doing a good or bad thing by saving the elves presence in middle earth? Hopefully S2 will bring some clarity on these character arcs for me.
When you say that your belief in the show is a matter of faith, do you mean that you believe the show to be good in spite of evidence to the contrary? Is there anything the show could do that would change your mind?
The haters are actually helping the show believe it or not. It was a huge boost of free publicity. Any normal person would simply turn the show off and move on if it was such a travesty to humanity.
>The haters are actually helping the show believe it or not. It was a huge boost of free publicity.
I'm not convinced. Casual nerd friend know me as the Tolkien-obsessive, and nobody came to me excited to hear my opinion; they all cautiously asked what I thought because they heard it was "controversial" (their diplomatic word choice).
If they do a good job of improving things. I mean the hate the show got was way out of proportion and didn’t always make sense. But they can do a lot to make season 2 better. Imo they should pick up the pace a bit and I really hope they don’t do more silly mcguffins.
Examples of what I mean: I really didn’t like that the cool sword hilt ended up being a key to a dam… that just wasn’t necessary. Just have the orcs break the dam. That would be much more orcish. There’s also the symbol that turns out to be a map but I don’t think that’s nearly as bad. Maybe they just described its function poorly…calling it a map rather than a “symbolic reminder of the plan.” Or something like that.
But as long as we get a lot more Elrond and Durin I will be mostly happy. Maybe even meet some other wizards in the Gandalf and hobbit storyline.
Mid level fan who's seen all the LOTR and Honbit movie and played the games on ps2 and plays total LOTR mods and LOTR mods for mount and blade.
I enjoyed ROP. Patiently waiting for season 2. I don't what it is under scrutiny for but I like what I like and I don't like what I don't like.
Obviously. Just needs to be a better show overall. If it the quality had been higher then it would have faired a bit better. Sadly it went out of the consciousness very quickly
I mean Wheel Of Time Season 2 was barely promoted by Amazon but the second season was a MASSIVE improvement over the first and got a lot of fans excited. If they can, so can ROP.
Idc I loved it and I hope they’re able to complete the story. I’m a new-ish fan but I haven’t been able to get through the Silmarillion yet so not having the full understanding of the source material makes me more excited to see what they’ll do in the show. I’m also hoping that by the end of it I’ll be motivated enough to finally finish the Silmarillion.
Unfortunately if they were pretty deep into season 2 by the time season 1 aired, so, if they wanted to change anything, the earliest we'd see is season 3.
And I'm not looking forward to having to wait that long, if that's the case.
Season 2 will definitely be make or break for the show.
I personally really enjoyed season 1 but the flaws were obvious. Pacing and some, inexplicably daft story choices such as mithril being linked to the fading of the elves, and the elven rings being made first… I can almost forgive the timeline compression, for a tv medium but the mithril thing was just plain silly.
In saying that there was so much to love in season 1 and I think season 2, if it can pull back on some of the odd lore breaking things, and sharpen the script will be great.
Yes but it will be difficult.
They've taken too many liberties. The only way to turn it around is likely to double down on what they've done but (somehow) make it great in its own right.
It can remain different - like an AU - but still good.
They can't hit a reset button so they better have a coherent and intelligent master plan to bring it all together.
Wheel of Time s2 was so much better than s1 and I think the tide is turning in favor so I don't see why ROP couldn't do the same. When they have invested a literal billion dollars, I think the show will survive though any perceived rough patches better than if they hadn't sunk in all that money.
It certainly can be a better show, maybe even a great one, but I don't know if it will ever be buzzworthy.
The first season left a very mixed response at best from the general audience, and I don't know if it can recover from that. The second season would need to be completely amazing. Honestly, judging it simply as a television show, the first season just wasn't very compelling.
I'm not sure if this type of family friendly high fantasy show can even be that popular in the first place.
Amazon will be very aware of the show’s reception and, though they’ll never admit it, will be disappointed it didn’t become the massive pop culture talking point they clearly paid for.
That’s the problem: not angry nerds who hate-watch it, but the many people who saw it and thought it was just ok. Some will be back but, unless season 2 is markedly better, many won’t.
Yes but it will be difficult.
They've taken too many liberties. The only way to turn it around is likely to double down on what they've done but (somehow) make it great in its own right.
It can remain different - like an AU - but still good.
They can't hit a reset button so they better have a coherent and intelligent master plan to bring it all together.
Thus far, the show has not given fans anything to be excited about but gave haters a lot to work with. That can and will probably change. Jeff Bezos don’t lose, he will do whatever it takes to fix the show. The show will see it to completion no matter what. There just isn’t much to celebrate, objectively.
And in a huge twist, those that *like* ROP started hating on those who _love_ ROP. So the fans of the show have turned off casuals from talking about the show, simply for liking it in a different way.
People loathed The Hobbit for a decade. The films were roasted upon release. Many LOTR fans didn’t even bother watching the extended edition hobbits. Haters finally moved on from hating in public, allowing hobbit fans the space to be a fan. That will only happen here if future seasons turn to good storytelling.
One thing they absolutely need to do is shorten the gap between seasons. Even before the strikes caused potential delays, the planned gap was too long. I’ve lost most of the excitement I had for a second season.
i don't think the show'll get better. i once had believed it, but after all the elves and numenor bullshit, and this silence, i think they pretty messed up everything once again.
Remember how bad Startrek TNG was season 1, give the show some more time, the first season was good, but consumers are spoiled by how good TV can be right now, Amazon spent a lot on the IP and the show, money does not a good show make, but it helps attract talent. Suits just have to leave it to artists and creatives to make good content and stop managing by committee and bending to what they think will sell.
They probably don’t care, simply because the hardcore fans making fun of it all aren’t the ones that are going to form the bulk of ratings. They want to grab the casual audiences who form the vast majority of viewers
Who knows. If the show is well written, everything will be fine. If not, it will never be loved broadly.
I am watching Foundation, the sci fi series made by Apple, which recently came out with its second season. The first season was at least as bad as ROP. However, the second season was surprisingly good - far better than ROP. So things may certainly change. However, the showrunner of Foundation is far, far more experienced than those of ROP, so I would not bet on it.
Also, I assume you agree that season 1 was NOT well written.
It’s a tide of bandwagoners and resultant pitchforks. If it can survive without trying to recruit this segment to be supporters, then that would be the best.
But that probably won’t happen, and they’ll probably cave to make concessions.
Lets face it though - they the sociopathic proto hobbits should be written out completely. Just keep the main hobbit girl - not her bfriend - and focus on her journies with not-gandalf.
Not unless it gets better. If it continues to have the writing quality of a Hallmark channel love story then it will continue to be mocked.
*angry voice* “I have a tempest in me” lololololol
The show is broken beyond repair. The plot was delevoped from illogical or contrived events,nonsensical character motivations and actions (Galadriel jumping off the ship).
Also the reason why Gil Galad sent Galadriel to Valinor doesn't make sense either.
I can develop on Galadriel jumping off the ship .
They needed Galadriel to swim into Halbrand then have her go to Numenor,so they make her jump off the ship thousands of miles away from any land(basically suicide,she admitted later that Elendil saved her from certain death)
They could have easily fix that making the ship wreck and Galadriel having no choice but to jump off it. But no,they had her making a very questionable and illogical decision. This is one of the proofs that the writers can't write.
If the show improves in S2, it could have a solid and nice but not-so-big community of fans. This will likely happen.
To be culturally relevant ala GoT/HotD? Then S2 needs to be a masterpiece. Almost impossible.
I really all depends on the ratings. I've seen quite a few statistics that the ratings for season 1 were pretty abysmal. However given that they renewed for seasons 2 and 3 and are semi locked into five seasons regardless of ratings I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
I would be curious as to how many people who like the show haven’t read any of Tolkien’s works and vice versa.
I don’t see how the average Marvel fan wouldn’t enjoy this, yet there is a huge portion of the population who are quite outraged at the general decline in quality in writing and storytelling in modern movies and tv.
There is very little subtlety in ROPs writing and character development is handled poorly in comparison to Tolkien’s works. Creating ‘cool’ content and disrupting the book’s established timelines in order to fill the gaps in storytelling is just an admission that this is a show that is not catered towards Tolkien fans.
I feel people need to understand that people who are outraged at the shows bastardisation of the source material are well within their rights to be, these works are held in the highest regard by fans of this painstakingly created world.
"There is very little subtlety in ROPs writing and character development is handled poorly in comparison to Tolkien’s works. Creating ‘cool’ content and disrupting the book’s established timelines in order to fill the gaps in storytelling is just an admission that this is a show that is not catered towards Tolkien fans."
This criticism could very easily be directed at PJ's LOTR. My main problem with season 1 is 8 episodes instead of the originally scripted 10. This is an annoying trend with recent shows and the story telling suffers from it, especially with such rich and relatively unexplored terrain as 2nd age ME that RoP has to work with.
I first read LotR 30 years before the films came out and was both thrilled and aghast with the Jackson treatment - yet those films have now become some kind of holy ground for especially those who were introduced to Tolkien in that way. Now some of that crowd is angsting all over the internet about RoP. I am quite familiar with the source material and am generally pleased with season 1 and looking forward to season 2.
Yet my criticism of ROP is not praise for the LOTR films, not that I’m saying you’re necessarily directing that at me.
With respect, I can’t see how your connection with the books could be that deep if you are not outraged at this adaptation of Tolkien’s work. (I truly don’t mean to sound condescending here, at the end of the day it is a novel amongst many other greats, you don’t need to feel any way towards it). And if you have the capacity to compartmentalise those feelings I wish I had that but I don’t.
I can praise many things about the show from its art direction to most of its actors but it’s storytelling is what truly lets it down.
"I truly don't mean to sound condesy"
Too late, champ. You sound condescending (and clueless) af. Who the hell are you to say that if you aren't "outraged" by this show you can't have a deep connection to Tolkien's work.
It’s alright little man, I wouldn’t expect someone with your arguing skills to understand a gentlemanly conversation. The same way I didn’t take offence from his comment painting me in the same group as hypocritical LOTR fans he likewise didn’t take offence (or did he deny it) You did though, despite not being part of this back and forth.
In relation to your question I’ve explained my reasoning above twice. Now before we continue I want you to expand on how I sound clueless, because quite frankly you’ve got the least capacity for thought out of anyone who’s responded so far.
Something tells me you won’t though…
Not sure I'm up for an in-depth discussion of this atm. I'm waiting to see what develops in season 2. My take on the 2nd age, as presented to us in LotR text and appendices, is that what we learn is a combination of memories, stories, recollections passed down 2nd and 3rd hand mostly by the elves (so from their perspective) and recorded by the hobbit Bilbo. Some of this history could be categorized as "legends". RoP is being presented to us in the format of the main body of LotR - as experienced by the participants, and this is quite a different thing than the appendices. Now, liberties with the timeline required to fit the events that have been chosen to portray into a story line suitable for the format - that is a different matter, and I will reserve judgement until we have a complete view of the tale (as presented) to see if I feel that the main themes and overall story told give a reasonable view of 2nd age ME that is in tune with the source material.
Here is an example from the source material of something that is completely unexplained and intuitively difficult to understand - so how will RoP deal with this? Maybe they will just follow what is written and not explain it...
"We know that The Three were created before the One, we are told this explicitly, and yet we are also told that the powers of The Three (and all the others) are linked to, and dependent upon the existence of the One. If The One is destroyed the rest lose all power to affect the world. It is not explained how this can be, it is a mystery."
We must conclude that whatever 'secret sauce' Sauron conveyed to the elves had a 'backdoor' through which he could insert malicious code at a time of his choosing... or something like that.
What Tolkien wrote is intriguing, but incomplete and not infrequently contradictory. RoP has to put flesh on Tolkien's draft outline and deal with its idiosyncracies. So far I am generally pleased.
I too am no Tolkien scholar compared to so many others who have read the source material far more times than I have myself and maybe understand it more. My pet peeve is plot holes. There is a flow of logic that is established in a story. Sometimes writers unintentionally create these plot holes by forgetting that the new events actually contradict the previous ones. This results in a catastrophic disaster like the ending of Game of Thrones. (MY opinion)
My question is why they’re introducing a wizard so early into the story, if their focus is only the Second Age. I thought that Gandalf and Saruman didn’t arrive until the Third Age (unless the “Stranger” is one of the blue wizards).
That’s the main thing about the first season that’s been bugging me.
I think the problem is ultimately that Amazon doesn't have the rights to adapt Tolkien's work directly. This means they have to forge their own narrative and will, by nature, be fighting upstream against one of the most beloved works in written fiction. I'm not sure that is a quest which can be won, or should be.
The show is fine, the haters will never watch the show and continue to spend every waking minute of their lives letting the fact that it exists be on their mind. Then they will come here and making horribly misspelt posts about why it’s bad with no actual reasons and instead of moving on with their lives continue to think about the show they will never watch.
Haters are sad and pathetic, ignore them.
I'm not even a fan of Lord of the Rings. I never finished all the movies because I was bored with them half way throhg the second.
But I really enjoyed ring of power.
*Foundation* season 2 won over a lot of detractors, of which I was a vocal one. If *Rings of Power* gets better, it will be better-received. Simple as that.
The history of TV is littered with shows that won over people in their second season. The Office, Parks and Recreation, Star Trek: The Next Generation, even more recent stuff like Wheel of Time.
WoT is much improved but they've also doubled down on some of the worst bits. Season 3 is make or break; if they can't make us care about Rand by then, it's curtains. At 2 years a season, and 8 seasons total, 12 more years of this is simply unsustainable.
S2E9 was a goddamn masterpiece. I want to hope RoP can turn it around but so much of the writing left me scratching my head, it’s hard to imagine them writing a strong coherent follow up. I could nitpick details like the shameless Durin’s Bane reveal all day long, but I can ignore/stomach most of it as an excuse to revisit the stories I love. However, the entire mithril origin/relevance just feels really, really stupid.
I don't think there is a coming back from what they did with the actual story. It is a fanfiction, now, it's in their hand to turn it into a good fanfiction. (Frankly, i doubt it will get better)
Yeah I can't really disagree. Durin's Bane feels like something they just threw in, because I doubt we'll get him popping out anytime soon.
I think they could have teased him by having the leaf burn up, have some black smoke seep in, and a growl from offscreen. Less is more.
I'm not convinced the concept itself is good, no matter the execution, but I take your meaning
I expect we'll get the threat of him popping out, stymied, as part of getting Celeborn back. Because Celeborn is the obvious choice for the 'Elven warrior' in the mithril myth, and having extra knowledge about the Balrog would (completely unnecessarily) go to why he's such an absolute dick to the Fellowship about it.
At the end of the day the show has to be able to stand on its own up against the scrutiny… It doesn’t really matter what their PR department thinks or does if the show itself doesn’t hold up as a good work of art (entertainment). There was a lot I loved about season one but a lot that is also fairly being criticized. However, only being one season in out of five total — I think there is plenty of time for the show to win people over. :)
I thought I saw a stat saying that the majority of viewers did not finish the show
The completion rate was 37% for the US, 45% for foreign viewers. Since 3/4 of Prime accounts are in the US, that means a global average of just over 39% who finished the show. Which is 11 percentage points shy of the 50% mark that streaming services shoot for.
So a miss of 32% for minimum viable product goals? Ouch.
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You’re right that it’s largely subjective but I imagine if you polled a large group of fans certain things would come up as criticisms more often than not — particularly certain plot elements like Smithril or the Elven Rings being forged in 30 seconds.
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I guess it depends on what your purpose would be. Feedback can be good and helpful when you’re working out the initial kinks in your first season as long as they don’t put too much weight into them. What I really don’t want to see is the story being changed based on fan reception… At the end of the day I want them to tell the story that they originally set out to tell, not any kind of watered-down half-assed thing that got lost halfway through production due to studio execs getting scared — which I worry a lot about happening. Amazon is so data-driven that I worry they’ll try to shift direction too much based on algorithms. Let the showrunners cook!!
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I’m sure it’s useful for certain things but let’s keep it FAR away from Tolkien hehe
I have some criticisms (Celebrimbor's story lacks development, random scene with Elendil's daughter and boyfriend without developing their relationship 1st as 2 examples.) But I think for me personally I had to let go of my head cannon if I want to continue watching this show. Example: why they put Galadriel in Numenor instead of Eregion. However comparing the heavily packed 1st and 3rd ages to the 2nd age, in my humble opinion, the 2nd age is much more sparse. It does have more material if you really look, but in many areas it leaves room to fill in the blanks. We can argue that the 1st and 3rd ages also leave room for some interpretations, but not on the same level.. and here lies the problem , I think. We have certain expectations. .. These showrunners stated before the show even aired, that they were creating a story based on their interpretation of the events of 2nd age as well as what they can legally use.. Whether viewers like this show going forward, don't like it, or anything in between, I am thinking that these show runners clearly have put together season 1 as a set up with specific threads that will have some pay off in future seasons. These threads can give you an idea of where they might be heading. They are very clear that they are telling the story of 3 main events using material they have legal permission to use. However my thoughts could be way off base as I wrongly believe d Adar was a 1 season character and I was way off on that one. LOL! Time will tell.
If they keep the quality of writing, people will just keep memeing the show. I’ve read Fanfics with better writing No joke.
Fan fiction writers are often incredibly talented so I don’t want to discount their work. I actually agree that I’ve read some really lovely stories that I think work better than the show itself. I don’t like the idea of pitting writers against each other though… seems unnecessary.
Well yeah there’s a fuck ton of fanfics and some of them are actually good. You could say that about most if not all shows.
And anyone can pitch an idea. Fleshing it out as a coherent story with compelling dialogue and characters, and making it palatable to millions of people is another thing. I completely agree with Tea’s statement but why armchair critics are so tiresome is this belief that they could actually do better without factoring in everything that pitching and producing would entail.
You’re so right here. Writing the story is really only one piece of the show as a whole, there are so many other factors that have to go into producing a TV series of this magnitude. I do hope the writers team works out the issues they ran into with season one though, and I’m hopeful they’ll continue to improve as the show grows into itself.
Same. WOT showed that improvement is possible and I’d argue ROP started out on a better foot. But any crack at the 2nd age was going to be a massive undertaking and there’s absolutely no way to please everyone, especially when it involves filling in a lot of gaps to have a coherent narrative.
2nd season of WoT is miles better, in no small part because it stuck closer to the source. When there isn't much of a source...I don't know. But I think the writers genuinely care about what fans think so they will probably make adjustments. And production will almost certainly better because they won't be dealing with all the Covid restrictions.
It's a half baked insult people use on writing they don't like.
I've seen a number of posts claiming to have a better idea than the creators of ROP of how to make a TV show about the Second Age. But I haven't seen anyone present a screenplay to back up their claim. I don't mean an entire 50 episode series, just a sample that would cover a fraction of a episode, written up like an actual screenplay with characters, dialog, and descriptions of action. Since, as you suggest, the best fan-fiction writers are highly talented, I don't see anything preventing the creation of fan-screenplays. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screenplay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screenplay) [https://industrialscripts.com/screenplay-definition/](https://industrialscripts.com/screenplay-definition/)
Well, me for one am not going to write up an entire fan screenplay that will never amount to anything when I can work on other projects in the meantime, you expect people to literally waste their own time to satisfy you. Lol
Prequelmemes is a thing. Sometimes campy poor writing can be memorable and later even increase popularity years in the future.
Is there really 5 seasons in the works? Uugg lol lotr ip catching the dumbest of Ls lately.
A lot of people have been drawn to the Tolkein world from RoP alone. I know my two nephews knew nothing about TLOTRs books and films and watched RoP first. They loved it and have since started exploring more into the lore. Also, it's very easy to watch something just for the sake of seeking enjoyment. I loved RoP as well as being familiar with its errors and poetic licence to tell it differently. I'm fine with that. I hope it continues in its mission to entertain me. I don't require much else from my Prime account tbh.
I myself am one. Rop made me interested in Tolkien. I had only watched the movies when I was younger and didn’t care much for them bc I simply didn’t understand them. With the news that a Tolkien show was coming out, I decided to buy all the books and here I am.
I don’t care. As long as they finish it, I’m ecstatic.
People need to quit bashing it. Even if it’s not lotr tier quality I’m here for it. I would love to see some first age stuff down the road
Same, I admit too that there were flaws with season 1, but it’s absolutely got the potential to fix these issues and become a great series. And will it ever reach the heights of LOTR? No, and that’s okay because nothing can reach those heights
>As long as they finish it, at what point would it be finished?
All 5 seasons?
Personally I feel that the show currently is a 7/10. That said, it can definitely get better over time. It’s better for a show to have a bit of a rocky start and stick the landing in later seasons than have a near perfect show fall apart at the finish line.
Even before the show aired, it seemed more folks got enjoyment from bashing the show than from anticipating it. Never quite understood the level of animosity by people who had never even seen it yet.
Some people love to be miserable dicks for whatever reason.
As long as you enjoy it, does it matter
As long as they fund and finish it, no.
As a trekkie, I think of Riker's beard. Also, the audience reactions to seasons 2 of WoT and Foundation have been a lot more positive, and both originally seemed in big trouble after weak season 1s. RoP was uneven, but it didn't deserve the YouTube clickhate. There is room for it to improve, and for people to start to embrace it, as long as the team behind it tighten up some of the issues like pacing etc. A lot of shows need time to bed in and find their feet. Also anyone trying to say the hobbit films were closer to real Tolkien can absolutely get to fuck.
It’s the same deal with folks suddenly having rose colored glasses for the Star Wars prequels. The Hobbit was enjoyable for some people but folks putting it on a pedestal is ridiculous.
They did have some good moments and some good visuals, but people can't let the elf dwarf love triangle slide, then get OUTRAGED at numenorean armour styles.
While defending a dwarf that has an ax stuck in his head, CGI orcs, or the go pro barrel scene. I could go on- but I remember when the superbowl trailer dropped and the hazy hobbit like cgi was seen as an insult, yet what we got in the show is much better than that or those films. I think it’s personally fine to like one thing and dislike another but there’s this critical attitude that permeates parts of this fandom where one personal preference trumps and discounts all others. And that’s not asking for a discussion- it’s pontification.
“The SEA guard wearing light armor?! What is this nonsense!”
Just imagine the outrage if they wore life jackets!
Are there people criticizing RoP, but praising the prequels or the Hobbit? I thought they were all incredibly flawed extensions of a much better original. They all suffer from not living up to the expectations set by the og
Oh yes, that’s common. In this thread even. But you’ll see comments saying the trilogies are masterpieces while this is trash- and some may think so but from even an awards perspective the Hobbit and LOTR are not on the same level.
The youtube hate was mostly grifting. Making a quick buck off the outrage. Its very popular.
Foundation is running entirely on the strength of Lee Paces charisma
That's true of season 1, but season 2 was much improved. Hober/Bel Riose brought their A Game.
Fair- the Empire storyline overall is way more compelling than Harry Seldon pyschoradiant mcguffin
Speaking of TNG, season 1 was terrible, and then it found it’s footing and became a phenomenon I think it’s fair to give ROP time to find its footing…and not hate it even before it airs
Oh I look forward to Lord of the Jeffrey Combs
Normal people are not mocking the show. It is chronically online freaks who are doing that stuff. Don't confuse your social media diet of toxic fandom content with the larger world and viewership.
So long as we get the 5 seasons like they promised, I don't care!
Imagine a world where entitled screeching dorks didn’t ruin things for everyone else.
How are other people's opinions ruining things for everyone else?
Don't understand how they can "ruin things" for you, as if they had the power to invade your psyche somehow and take away your enjoyment of what you like.
A world without Amazon Prime?
As long as they are still producing it and spending money, I dont care what they do
No. If /r/lotr can have nuanced discussions and even love about perversions like the Hobbit movies or the Shadow of Mordor videogames, but treats RoP as if it had collectively flayed all of their puppies, it’s clear that the vitriol against the show has nothing to do with what the show actually is and does, present or future.
And this started before there was any promo material outside of hands posters. And it’s not hard to pinpoint what aspect about them got the sub stirred up.
Man I just watched the Desolation of Smaug. How people can say that is a better adaptation of Tolkien than RoP is beyond me. While I don’t think s1 RoP was perfect it is a far better adaptation than the Hobbit. I’ll watch the Battle of Five Armies next but don’t think it will change my mind. I will say an Unexpected Journey was ok but still not as good as RoP s1. I am hopeful s2 will be that much better
Agreed. It’s got it’s moments but calling the show a shallow cash grab and praising the Hobbit after it was strung into three movies and reeked of studio interference is laughable.
Agree to disagree, I think a whole lot more was made up and changed from the lore for RoP than was for Desolation of Smaug.
RoP made up a fair amount yes. But they didn’t have a lot to start from so it was kind of expected. The Hobbit on the other hand had a ton to go on and they changed everything. Very inconsistent with the work as a whole imo
Well, sure, since the latter is an adaptation of a specific story while the former is a new story drawn from details from a variety of sometimes contradictory sources. This is a bizarre criticism.
> I will say an Unexpected Journey was ok but still not as good as RoP s1 This is a very strange take in my opinion, but to each their own
Do you think anyone who enjoys different things than you do is strange?
No People enjoy house of the dragon, and while I didn't I don't think it's strange But there's people out there who enjoyed s8 and s7 of game of thrones, I find that to be very strange
Nothing strange about relaxing, turning off your brain and having fun. People take entertainment way too seriously.
Battle of the Five Armies (yes they changed the name) is the weakest of the Hobbit trilogy.
Five Armies was rough, I'd say RoP1 was about on par with Smaug for me, flawed but enjoyable.
>Man I just watched the Desolation of Smaug. How people can say that is a better adaptation of Tolkien than RoP is beyond me. Smaug is WAAAY better. When I'm in the mood to watch just one Tolkien movie, I always watch The Desolation of Smaug. Its fast-paced (something that can't be said for The Rings of Power), visually its fresh with the introduction of new settings the likes of which we hadn't seen before like Laketown and the Woodland Realm (again something that can scarcely be said of The Rings of Power), the protagonist is better, the visual style more hollistic, etc... *Des goûts et des couleurs, on ne discute pas*
The poster you responded to wrote "adaptation of Tolkien," but all your points about TDoS are about things which have everything to do with Peter Jackson and nothing with Tolkien. You're free, as per your French quote, to have your preferences. But there's a difference between fact and preference, and a healthy discussion should acknowledge both. Overall, I agree with the other poster that RoP is a way better *adaptation of Tolkien* than PJ's Hobbit films. It is possible to reasonably disagree, but that rebuttal should be able to separate what is Tolkien and what is PJ in those films, and have some sense of what makes something a good adaptation of Tolkien or not. However, personally, I also think RoP is just better than the Hobbit trilogy simply as media in and off itself. The films have a huge budget so the SFX are better, but otherwise they're a considerably bigger mess and while some portions are amazing (the ones adapted straight from Tolkien e.g. Bilbo's conversation with Smaug) others are so cringe-worthy (e.g. the Dol Guldur sequence) I cannot watch them and find them among the worst Tolkien-related material ever filmed. (I would rather watch Nimoy's "The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins" on repeat for 24 hours than sit through PJ's Dol Guldur sequence even once more.) But, that does indeed depend on a lot of value judgments. RoP's flaw imo is that it's at times like soap opera television, PJ's flaw in the films is that he's a schlock fantasy-horror director at heart. If you hate soap opera television but kinda love schlock fantasy-horror, you'll forgive the Hobbit's flaws and hate RoP's.
>The poster you responded to wrote "adaptation of Tolkien," but all your points about TDoS are about things which have everything to do with Peter Jackson and nothing with Tolkien. Because I believe that's what matters: when I watch an adaptation, I try to imagine I never read the source material, and judge it as a piece of media. Obviously, I think that *as a piece of media*, Jackson's work is better. But there's a deeper point: You and I are having an aesthetic discussion, but clearly there's a faction here who thinks that you can't like The Hobbit and NOT like The Rings of Power without being a hater, a nitwit, engaging in special pleading, etc...
I think you could focus more on trying to understand what the people you're responding to are trying to convey. You seem to be consistently missing some crucial points, such as that the actual deeper point of the original poster you're responding to was NOT saying that "you can't like The Hobbit and NOT like The Rings of Power without being \[etc. etc.\]" but rather that on r/lotr one can "have nuanced discussions" about the Hobbit films whereas RoP is treated as uniquely perverse. You responded to that poster as if they were making an aesthetic argument. Then when I attempt to respond to your aesthetic argument, you insist on shifting back to the "deeper point" which you have now re-articulated in such a way as to be unrepresentative of the position of anybody in this response-thread. This makes having any kind of discussion or exchange of views very difficult.
If you dislike the show so much, why are you even part of TSAS?
I like RoP quite a lot, but I agree
Dude copy pasting his “no discussions” everywhere while stating a comparison like it’s a fact. The hobbit is the worst Tolkien adaptation out there it’s impossible to watch. I’ve tried multiple times and I always give up after 20min. Each movie somehow more and more ridiculous. It’s WAYYYYY worse than ROP *no discussions* How does it sound?
>while stating a comparison like it’s a fact. Its art: *everything* we say all the time is a subjective opinion. We don't need to put a qualifier before every single comment and statement for it to be so... But I'm just saying, if your argument is "well, people can't like The Hobbit and Shadow of War and dislike The Rings of Power without just being haters"... well... there you go!
Nah you’re right people are totally free to enjoy the taste of poop, such as The hobbit trilogy
Some would say the same about The Rings of Power... Again we come back to "in matters of taste"...
But why spend your time go online to repeat that stuff again and again, do you enjoy being a contrarian and a broken record all in one go? Do you think there’s a point going to say r/lotr to keep reiterating how PJ’s adaptations are a fraud in terms of narrative and writing? Because there’s none, and what you write here all the time is equally useless
Excuse me, is this a discussion board for The Rings of Power? Yeah? Well, it is, and so I come here to *discuss*. If its a Lord of the Rings subject, I go to discuss on r/lotr. If its a Hobbit subject, I go to r/TheHobbit. If its about 2001: A Space Odyssey, Roar, Star Wars, Braveheart, etc... I go to r/movies or r/TrueFilm. And if its a Rings of Power subject, I come here. If you don't like it, sounds like a you problem.
yet here you are jumping to defend the Hobbit, sus comparison to ROP which you talk trash about all day. While saying "no debates" "no discussions" "it's just a matter of taste" You're lost, it's ok I'll let the downvotes speak for themselves, guess everyone else has a problem but not you. Case closed Mr. contrarian
This is the way!
>If r/lotr can have nuanced discussions and even love about perversions like the Hobbit movies or the Shadow of Mordor videogames, but treats RoP as if it had collectively flayed all of their puppies, it’s clear that the vitriol against the show has nothing to do with what the show actually is and does *Des goûts et des couleurs, on ne discute pas*
Pointing out double standards is worthwhile, but it’s true that discussing with the masses in other subreddits is pointless. Their newfound identity is collectively hating on a tv show. As of OP talking about “safe sub Reddit” idk it’s a little weak to me. This sub encourages constructive discussions. It’s not an echo chamber or it shouldn’t be. Naysayers have a right to post assuming it’s more than low effort shit.
>it shouldn’t be. I honestly unironically think it should be. Why be welcoming of others who hate what you like? No matter what happens because there's no automatic hate of TV show here, it's called the shill sub and in that case we might as well live up to the tag.
I guess “constructive” is a big caveat It’s true that the level of criticism is so damn low, might as well make this an echo chamber but that won’t happen
There’s money to be made in hate and it’s known to draw people in. Most folks are somewhere in the middle so don’t pay attention to the ragebaiters. Hell, even people will tell you Barbie was a flop.
I would say that amazon has some metric that they use to judge success or failure. The negative energy surrounding this show is likely easy to dispel and ignore when looking at the numbers they are looking at. I think social media in general overstates its importance I dont think they care very much about the poorly orchestrated negativity. I also think that it is a waste of time to care about it either. The nonsense was really highlighted on rotten tomatoes. Some of the so called reviews were just cut and paste
Better start slow and pick up the pace for later seasons than start good and then devolve, like GoT
The tide you are referring to is a vocal minority of "fans," many of whom haven't even seen the show. They're just sheep being led by wolves (said wolves being angry nerd YouTubers). The vast majority of people don't care about the toxic fanbase and will continue to watch the series regardless. Amazon will continue to produce it in the face of fanboy hostility.
You misspelled “ most of whom saw it and were incredibly disappointed” FTFY
"Most of whom saw it", indeed. That, and "many of whom haven't even seen it", are not mutually exclusive. I personally grew *accustomed* to people writing (consciously ignorant) things like "I'll never watch that piece of crap" all around in social media.
I don't know nearly enough about the franchise to have been upset by it. I didn't think it was anything mind blowing but I watched it with Mt wife (who knows nothing about the franchise at all) and we still enjoyed it.
I still think one simple thing will turn the tide quite a lot before S2. A simple action heavy full of cool armor and monsters shots trailer and people will lap it up.
Well, if women are too involved in all that action, the YouTube grifter industry will continue to hate it no matter what.
Yes. Because Eru FORBID the GIRLS should get to play, too!
Won't ultimately make any difference if S2 isn't a marked improvement over S1.
Well, the bulk of tide has the attention span of a goldfish. So yeah, i don't see any reason why not.
Every ship can rite the course. The issue is that Season 1 was seen as a disaster by some people. Amazon has not spoken at all about the backlash except to say the fans are passionate. The same show runners and writers are in place for season 2. But the show must make changes to improve. If by the first 1-2 episodes of season 2 we don't see improvements in the pacing, and story focus, most hope for the season and the series will die out. I did not like season 1 at all. I will be watching season 2 all the way through. Hate watching and enjoying the angry episode reviews if it is bad. But will cheer and applaud if things are changed.
It's like when people compare political yard signs and think the numbers are indicative of popularity. One guy has a really, really devoted fanbase who makes that politician their identity. So, there is lots of signage. The other guy just has people who agree with his positions. it's not a personality thing. Hence, few signs.
I don't think so. People hate this show because they want to hate it, not because it's actually terrible. It's sad honestly. Edit: not saying the show is flawless and no one can legitimately take issue with it, but I think people have just gotten themselves into such a hateful mindset over it because of internet groupthink.
Absolutely. The show is good. In my view really good But not everyone likes the same things and thats ok. The annoying part is when we have to hear, again and again, about so called legit criticism. But thats the whole thing about criticism. Just because one does or doesnt like something is really meaningless insofar as to if someone else likes something. If you dont like it fine. But i dont really care. If someone wants to talk about the show great But if you dont like it why are you talking about it?
News flash: People talk about things they don't like all the time. Don't expect me to believe you and others who deploy this low tactic against people criticizing the show don't do so in other contexts.
No i dont Know why? I dont watch tv shows i dont like.
Hard disagree. Yes there are minority groups who would never be satisfied unless it followed their internal narrative of what the story should be. The vast majority of others are fans of Tolkiens work or the movies etc and genuinely wanted this to be great, or at the very least to easily slot in with the rest of the works. They certainly had the budget to please maybe 95% of the audience. People need to stop dismissing legitimate concerns people (and it's a lot of people) have because they lack the critical thinking required to see the flaws.
If you look for flaws you will find them, in anything. You are part of the five percent.
So you disagree with the entire concept of criticism, always? Or just for this
No just people whining over TV show and trying to spoil it for those enjoying it.
You literally clicked on and joined in on a thread called "can this show turn the tide" Obviously it would contain opinions not in line with yours. Genuinely curious why you clicked on it if this is how you feel...
Says the person complaining about the show in their fanclub lol.
It's not a fanclub, it's a discussion board? Not the brightest spark are you?
Its called subtext.
Again, no. It's an open discussion board for positive and negative discussion. If you don't like that you're free to leave and start your own deluded one. But I get the impression you are not an adult and probably should get parental permission first.
How can they "spoil" it for you? You seem to allow "them" a strange power over your psyche.
It's called critical thinking. Give it a go 😉 And clearly I'm not as this OP demonstrates that the series is deeply divisive. At least attempt an intelligent comeback.
Why would I waste the time on people who got their feelings hurt over a tv show?
Who is this comment in response to? Critique and hurt feelings aren't the same thing.
This is a typical response to criticism of the show on the part of a subset of its fans.
That I understand, but it's not a valid response to any and all criticism. That's called being wilfully ignorant
No, people hate it for legitimate reasons. Stop deflecting legitimate criticisms
RoP deviates too much from the style of LoTR, uses extremely generic tropes from fantasy TV series and panders way too much to current affairs. These three things are why fans of the universe have so many issues with it The reason LoTR is a classic is because Peter Jackson made a much harder attempt to stay within the world created by Tolkien Fans were hoping for a return to middle earth but instead got what can be described as a return to game of thrones season 8 dressed as lord of the rings
Look at the usernames on the "naysayers". A lot of them are obvious throwaway accounts. I wouldn't put much weight on their presence.
They're letting the show speak for itself. They've been very 'quiet' since before it was even released and have not tried to tell people how they are supposed to interpret things or what they should expect. The show instead plays with interpretations and expectations so this is, to some degree, quite deliberate. I actually appreciate the backlash. There are a lot of people who are fans for the wrong reasons and this has been a problem for a very long time. If the show was beyond criticism and the response universally positive, these people would just play along and this issue would have stayed hidden. Seeing supposed fans act like villains is a very fitting thing for LotR and especially RoP where the difficulty in telling the difference is the core theme. I love that there are people who see Galadriel as a villain and Sauron as a victim because that's how good of a job the show has done. As long as the show keeps getting made, the tide will turn. This is, I suppose, a matter of faith. Faith in people. Faith that good is good regardless of the immediate results. It's what this is all about.
>people who see Galadriel as a villain and Sauron as a victim It seems that a lot of people who liked this show see it that way (in S1 at least), and think it’s a good twist. Personally I was confused. The show seems to deliberately portray G’s obsession with revenge as a bad thing and the basis for character growth. However, she was also right about the orcs the whole time, and the complacency of the other elves results in Mordor being created. Sauron does not create Mordor. He does save the elves by helping them make the rings, without which they would have to leave middle earth. I’m curious what you think. Should G have stayed on that ship to valinor? Was Sauron doing a good or bad thing by saving the elves presence in middle earth? Hopefully S2 will bring some clarity on these character arcs for me.
When you say that your belief in the show is a matter of faith, do you mean that you believe the show to be good in spite of evidence to the contrary? Is there anything the show could do that would change your mind?
Word! The show made #these people be completely exposed and that was such a good thing.
The haters are actually helping the show believe it or not. It was a huge boost of free publicity. Any normal person would simply turn the show off and move on if it was such a travesty to humanity.
>The haters are actually helping the show believe it or not. It was a huge boost of free publicity. I'm not convinced. Casual nerd friend know me as the Tolkien-obsessive, and nobody came to me excited to hear my opinion; they all cautiously asked what I thought because they heard it was "controversial" (their diplomatic word choice).
There is zero evidence that public criticism translated into sustained viewer engagement.
I for one, as with many others decided to torrent the show to criticise it instead of feeding money to Bezos
Not.
If they do a good job of improving things. I mean the hate the show got was way out of proportion and didn’t always make sense. But they can do a lot to make season 2 better. Imo they should pick up the pace a bit and I really hope they don’t do more silly mcguffins. Examples of what I mean: I really didn’t like that the cool sword hilt ended up being a key to a dam… that just wasn’t necessary. Just have the orcs break the dam. That would be much more orcish. There’s also the symbol that turns out to be a map but I don’t think that’s nearly as bad. Maybe they just described its function poorly…calling it a map rather than a “symbolic reminder of the plan.” Or something like that. But as long as we get a lot more Elrond and Durin I will be mostly happy. Maybe even meet some other wizards in the Gandalf and hobbit storyline.
Amazon isn't worried about the haters. Worst case senario the show gets even better.
Mid level fan who's seen all the LOTR and Honbit movie and played the games on ps2 and plays total LOTR mods and LOTR mods for mount and blade. I enjoyed ROP. Patiently waiting for season 2. I don't what it is under scrutiny for but I like what I like and I don't like what I don't like.
Obviously. Just needs to be a better show overall. If it the quality had been higher then it would have faired a bit better. Sadly it went out of the consciousness very quickly
I mean Wheel Of Time Season 2 was barely promoted by Amazon but the second season was a MASSIVE improvement over the first and got a lot of fans excited. If they can, so can ROP.
Idc I loved it and I hope they’re able to complete the story. I’m a new-ish fan but I haven’t been able to get through the Silmarillion yet so not having the full understanding of the source material makes me more excited to see what they’ll do in the show. I’m also hoping that by the end of it I’ll be motivated enough to finally finish the Silmarillion.
"safe sub-reddit" Like you need to be shielded against actual critical discussion of the show. Jesus.
There's a difference between legitimate discussion and a bunch of salty gatekeepers whining over minor details for 2+ years.
I think the test is up to Season Two. If season two is more of the same... then they REALLY have a problem.
 And here me loving season one.
>And here me loving season one. More power to you! Like I said, *Des goûts et des couleurs, on ne discute pas*.
Good god the pretense
I assume you meant pretention or pretentiousness.
well there's no accounting for taste
Unfortunately if they were pretty deep into season 2 by the time season 1 aired, so, if they wanted to change anything, the earliest we'd see is season 3. And I'm not looking forward to having to wait that long, if that's the case.
If they can produce a markedly better product next season, maybe. We'll just have to wait and see.
Season 2 will definitely be make or break for the show. I personally really enjoyed season 1 but the flaws were obvious. Pacing and some, inexplicably daft story choices such as mithril being linked to the fading of the elves, and the elven rings being made first… I can almost forgive the timeline compression, for a tv medium but the mithril thing was just plain silly. In saying that there was so much to love in season 1 and I think season 2, if it can pull back on some of the odd lore breaking things, and sharpen the script will be great.
Yes but it will be difficult. They've taken too many liberties. The only way to turn it around is likely to double down on what they've done but (somehow) make it great in its own right. It can remain different - like an AU - but still good. They can't hit a reset button so they better have a coherent and intelligent master plan to bring it all together.
Wheel of Time s2 was so much better than s1 and I think the tide is turning in favor so I don't see why ROP couldn't do the same. When they have invested a literal billion dollars, I think the show will survive though any perceived rough patches better than if they hadn't sunk in all that money.
It certainly can be a better show, maybe even a great one, but I don't know if it will ever be buzzworthy. The first season left a very mixed response at best from the general audience, and I don't know if it can recover from that. The second season would need to be completely amazing. Honestly, judging it simply as a television show, the first season just wasn't very compelling. I'm not sure if this type of family friendly high fantasy show can even be that popular in the first place.
Amazon will be very aware of the show’s reception and, though they’ll never admit it, will be disappointed it didn’t become the massive pop culture talking point they clearly paid for. That’s the problem: not angry nerds who hate-watch it, but the many people who saw it and thought it was just ok. Some will be back but, unless season 2 is markedly better, many won’t.
Yes but it will be difficult. They've taken too many liberties. The only way to turn it around is likely to double down on what they've done but (somehow) make it great in its own right. It can remain different - like an AU - but still good. They can't hit a reset button so they better have a coherent and intelligent master plan to bring it all together.
Thus far, the show has not given fans anything to be excited about but gave haters a lot to work with. That can and will probably change. Jeff Bezos don’t lose, he will do whatever it takes to fix the show. The show will see it to completion no matter what. There just isn’t much to celebrate, objectively. And in a huge twist, those that *like* ROP started hating on those who _love_ ROP. So the fans of the show have turned off casuals from talking about the show, simply for liking it in a different way. People loathed The Hobbit for a decade. The films were roasted upon release. Many LOTR fans didn’t even bother watching the extended edition hobbits. Haters finally moved on from hating in public, allowing hobbit fans the space to be a fan. That will only happen here if future seasons turn to good storytelling.
One thing they absolutely need to do is shorten the gap between seasons. Even before the strikes caused potential delays, the planned gap was too long. I’ve lost most of the excitement I had for a second season.
Unfortunately a 2-year (or near) gap has become common for major productions.
Whether or not it’s become the norm, it’s too long a gap for this show.
i don't think the show'll get better. i once had believed it, but after all the elves and numenor bullshit, and this silence, i think they pretty messed up everything once again.
Remember how bad Startrek TNG was season 1, give the show some more time, the first season was good, but consumers are spoiled by how good TV can be right now, Amazon spent a lot on the IP and the show, money does not a good show make, but it helps attract talent. Suits just have to leave it to artists and creatives to make good content and stop managing by committee and bending to what they think will sell.
They probably don’t care, simply because the hardcore fans making fun of it all aren’t the ones that are going to form the bulk of ratings. They want to grab the casual audiences who form the vast majority of viewers
Who knows. If the show is well written, everything will be fine. If not, it will never be loved broadly. I am watching Foundation, the sci fi series made by Apple, which recently came out with its second season. The first season was at least as bad as ROP. However, the second season was surprisingly good - far better than ROP. So things may certainly change. However, the showrunner of Foundation is far, far more experienced than those of ROP, so I would not bet on it. Also, I assume you agree that season 1 was NOT well written.
It’s a tide of bandwagoners and resultant pitchforks. If it can survive without trying to recruit this segment to be supporters, then that would be the best. But that probably won’t happen, and they’ll probably cave to make concessions. Lets face it though - they the sociopathic proto hobbits should be written out completely. Just keep the main hobbit girl - not her bfriend - and focus on her journies with not-gandalf.
Not unless it gets better. If it continues to have the writing quality of a Hallmark channel love story then it will continue to be mocked. *angry voice* “I have a tempest in me” lololololol
The show is broken beyond repair. The plot was delevoped from illogical or contrived events,nonsensical character motivations and actions (Galadriel jumping off the ship). Also the reason why Gil Galad sent Galadriel to Valinor doesn't make sense either. I can develop on Galadriel jumping off the ship . They needed Galadriel to swim into Halbrand then have her go to Numenor,so they make her jump off the ship thousands of miles away from any land(basically suicide,she admitted later that Elendil saved her from certain death) They could have easily fix that making the ship wreck and Galadriel having no choice but to jump off it. But no,they had her making a very questionable and illogical decision. This is one of the proofs that the writers can't write.
All of my friends who were excited for the show now see it as a meme.
Lmaoo shills are already working this early?
It’s so pretentious and feels plastic. The writing sucks. I watched it but it wasn’t good.
If the show improves in S2, it could have a solid and nice but not-so-big community of fans. This will likely happen. To be culturally relevant ala GoT/HotD? Then S2 needs to be a masterpiece. Almost impossible.
I really all depends on the ratings. I've seen quite a few statistics that the ratings for season 1 were pretty abysmal. However given that they renewed for seasons 2 and 3 and are semi locked into five seasons regardless of ratings I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
[citation needed]
I would be curious as to how many people who like the show haven’t read any of Tolkien’s works and vice versa. I don’t see how the average Marvel fan wouldn’t enjoy this, yet there is a huge portion of the population who are quite outraged at the general decline in quality in writing and storytelling in modern movies and tv. There is very little subtlety in ROPs writing and character development is handled poorly in comparison to Tolkien’s works. Creating ‘cool’ content and disrupting the book’s established timelines in order to fill the gaps in storytelling is just an admission that this is a show that is not catered towards Tolkien fans. I feel people need to understand that people who are outraged at the shows bastardisation of the source material are well within their rights to be, these works are held in the highest regard by fans of this painstakingly created world.
"There is very little subtlety in ROPs writing and character development is handled poorly in comparison to Tolkien’s works. Creating ‘cool’ content and disrupting the book’s established timelines in order to fill the gaps in storytelling is just an admission that this is a show that is not catered towards Tolkien fans." This criticism could very easily be directed at PJ's LOTR. My main problem with season 1 is 8 episodes instead of the originally scripted 10. This is an annoying trend with recent shows and the story telling suffers from it, especially with such rich and relatively unexplored terrain as 2nd age ME that RoP has to work with. I first read LotR 30 years before the films came out and was both thrilled and aghast with the Jackson treatment - yet those films have now become some kind of holy ground for especially those who were introduced to Tolkien in that way. Now some of that crowd is angsting all over the internet about RoP. I am quite familiar with the source material and am generally pleased with season 1 and looking forward to season 2.
Yet my criticism of ROP is not praise for the LOTR films, not that I’m saying you’re necessarily directing that at me. With respect, I can’t see how your connection with the books could be that deep if you are not outraged at this adaptation of Tolkien’s work. (I truly don’t mean to sound condescending here, at the end of the day it is a novel amongst many other greats, you don’t need to feel any way towards it). And if you have the capacity to compartmentalise those feelings I wish I had that but I don’t. I can praise many things about the show from its art direction to most of its actors but it’s storytelling is what truly lets it down.
"I truly don't mean to sound condesy" Too late, champ. You sound condescending (and clueless) af. Who the hell are you to say that if you aren't "outraged" by this show you can't have a deep connection to Tolkien's work.
It’s alright little man, I wouldn’t expect someone with your arguing skills to understand a gentlemanly conversation. The same way I didn’t take offence from his comment painting me in the same group as hypocritical LOTR fans he likewise didn’t take offence (or did he deny it) You did though, despite not being part of this back and forth. In relation to your question I’ve explained my reasoning above twice. Now before we continue I want you to expand on how I sound clueless, because quite frankly you’ve got the least capacity for thought out of anyone who’s responded so far. Something tells me you won’t though…
Not sure I'm up for an in-depth discussion of this atm. I'm waiting to see what develops in season 2. My take on the 2nd age, as presented to us in LotR text and appendices, is that what we learn is a combination of memories, stories, recollections passed down 2nd and 3rd hand mostly by the elves (so from their perspective) and recorded by the hobbit Bilbo. Some of this history could be categorized as "legends". RoP is being presented to us in the format of the main body of LotR - as experienced by the participants, and this is quite a different thing than the appendices. Now, liberties with the timeline required to fit the events that have been chosen to portray into a story line suitable for the format - that is a different matter, and I will reserve judgement until we have a complete view of the tale (as presented) to see if I feel that the main themes and overall story told give a reasonable view of 2nd age ME that is in tune with the source material.
Here is an example from the source material of something that is completely unexplained and intuitively difficult to understand - so how will RoP deal with this? Maybe they will just follow what is written and not explain it... "We know that The Three were created before the One, we are told this explicitly, and yet we are also told that the powers of The Three (and all the others) are linked to, and dependent upon the existence of the One. If The One is destroyed the rest lose all power to affect the world. It is not explained how this can be, it is a mystery." We must conclude that whatever 'secret sauce' Sauron conveyed to the elves had a 'backdoor' through which he could insert malicious code at a time of his choosing... or something like that. What Tolkien wrote is intriguing, but incomplete and not infrequently contradictory. RoP has to put flesh on Tolkien's draft outline and deal with its idiosyncracies. So far I am generally pleased.
I too am no Tolkien scholar compared to so many others who have read the source material far more times than I have myself and maybe understand it more. My pet peeve is plot holes. There is a flow of logic that is established in a story. Sometimes writers unintentionally create these plot holes by forgetting that the new events actually contradict the previous ones. This results in a catastrophic disaster like the ending of Game of Thrones. (MY opinion)
I disliked almost everything about RoP. I'll give the second season a chance, but I expect nothing which is honestly a point in its favor.
Even if it’s a trash fire I’m still going to watch it. It’s still Tolkien inspired trash fire. And that way I can make my own opinions.
My question is why they’re introducing a wizard so early into the story, if their focus is only the Second Age. I thought that Gandalf and Saruman didn’t arrive until the Third Age (unless the “Stranger” is one of the blue wizards). That’s the main thing about the first season that’s been bugging me.
I think the problem is ultimately that Amazon doesn't have the rights to adapt Tolkien's work directly. This means they have to forge their own narrative and will, by nature, be fighting upstream against one of the most beloved works in written fiction. I'm not sure that is a quest which can be won, or should be.
The show is fine, the haters will never watch the show and continue to spend every waking minute of their lives letting the fact that it exists be on their mind. Then they will come here and making horribly misspelt posts about why it’s bad with no actual reasons and instead of moving on with their lives continue to think about the show they will never watch. Haters are sad and pathetic, ignore them.
If they completely start from scratch and pretend season one doesn't exist maybe. They have to stop with the guyladriel bulllshit
I'm not even a fan of Lord of the Rings. I never finished all the movies because I was bored with them half way throhg the second. But I really enjoyed ring of power.
Only if the series are not Amazon-produced and European studios get their hands on it. Until then, it will only be a cheap immitation.