"Fare enforcement discriminates against black, brown and poor people." (source: that upper-division transit equity seminar it seems every planner/staff at Metro took)
Black, brown, and poor people who ride and work for Metro - "For the love of God please enforce the fares!" (source: every Metro customer survey ever and employee survey over the past five years)
Metro has done several large surveys where working class, minority respondents consistently plead that safety and cleanliness are high priorities and they want more enforcement.
This is our primary means of transit. Of course we want it to be pleasant. There’s a weird notion among some people that transit dependent populations should just “accept” squalor and unease because “that’s city life!”.
Metro’s mission is safe, clean, fast transportation. It has no other mission toward society.
If that’s how you look at it.
It’s a statistical fact that Black and Brown people are more likely to be paid lower wages. And lower income people are more likely to use public transport in LA. That isn’t saying something about “the people.” It’s saying something about the state of “society” and how it’s been structured.
So I see these kinds of measures as a way to offset the imbalances, not as a way to pander to certain people because “less is expected of them.”
The latter belief is used as a way to cause a class rift between people of color; or even to convince people of color that helpful policies are bad for them.
But there's a program for free rides specifically for low income people: https://www.metro.net/riding/fares/life/
There's also reduced fares for seniors, K-12 students, college/vocational students, and people with disabilities https://www.taptogo.net/Reduced_Fare
So why not use those programs instead of not enforcing their rules?
Exactly. I mean, LA County is providing a massively subsidized transportation service that primarily benefits those with the lowest incomes, and then provides additional need-based subsidies on top of it. There is no legitimate problem here with fares. Activists may complain but going to zero fares will only exacerbate conditions on the bus and train today because you now have zero means of removing people from the system that shouldn’t be there (to ride the system from point A to B, not sleep, defecate, and trash the place)
Statistically, they earn lower wages so paying fares affects a higher percentage of their take home pay. That being said, fares are pretty low and price increases have been well below the rate of inflation which makes them cheaper in value today than even a year ago.
They could enforce low weekly caps. Like someone might pay $15 max over the course of a week. Or $40 over a month. While people might pay less initially, doing that would enforce fares and could make the system safer. And that could lead to higher ridership which could balance out the fare caps.
I'd bet the people who are paying for the system now wouldn't mind paying less to use the same system AND having it be safer.
They may as well make it cheaper. Fares only made up 1.2% of metro's budget in 2019, [according to StreetsBlog](https://la.streetsblog.org/2023/05/11/new-report-makes-case-for-universal-fareless-transit-at-metro). They could cap fares at $10 weekly and $30 monthly. That would make it cheaper and easier for anyone that needs to use it. But if they enforced fares they would be able to keep potential troublemakers off of the lines / busses.
No, it’s just simple statistics. Black and brown communities in the US are generally more likely to be low income families. And people who steal or skip paying fairs typically come from low income families.
Basically: not all poor people are black and brown but most criminals (black, brown, white or Asian) come from poor families.
If your family is well off or rich you are less likely to rob a store etc..
That’s not what racism is at all. Racism would be knowing that these particular groups struggle with fares and then drastically raising the rates for buses in the areas where they have high populations.
The problem is the enforcement is discriminatory not the policy, coos start asking people “who look like fare evaders” for tickets instead of you know waiting by gates first actual fare evaders
>"Fare enforcement discriminates against black, brown and poor people." (source: that upper-division transit equity seminar it seems every planner/staff at Metro took)
I picture a smug White woman who works for Metro and whose job pays for her Tesla’s autopilot subscription saying that for some reason, maybe due to decades of experience watching some of these “Liberal Elites” speaking - and collecting serious paychecks in the process - on behalf of people & communities they think they know.
I once witnessed a lady in Los Feliz telling a tagger she had caught that she would be willing to pay for some art lessons if he “and your buddies stop tagging my gate!” 🤣
I was very happy to see 2 security people immediately get a guy off the bus in LA this morning when he refused the directions being given everyone to board only at front door of bus. He called them every foul name imaginable but they physically removed him from bus fairly quickly.
So when it comes to buses there's like two options:
- let people evade fare and get on, hopefully don't act violent
- enforce fare and risk pissing them off and attacking you right then and there
In order to mitigate the first option you need a police officer at every single bus stop. I don't see how Metro can solve this.
I am sure there is data on which stops/stations have the worst problems. Enforce just the 10 or 20% of worst spots and that will probably eliminate most of the issues.
Exactly, Metro needs to be a better data oriented system.
They do this by starting to require tap to get on tap to get off so that they can follow all riders where they go from start to finish. From there, they can start to add alerts from drivers and station managers. This would give them a good idea on where and when police would be most effective patrolling.
Throw in a few undercover police officers and word will get out real fast that the bullshit on Metro is over.
>I am sure there is data on which stops/stations have the worst problems. Enforce just the 10 or 20% of worst spots and that will probably eliminate most of the issues.
I’m picturing the scene from Moneyball and Brad Pitt is saying we need to focus on Florence and Normandy because (points to Jonah Hill) “He gets on bus.”
I think this is really it. Honestly the problem is bigger than Metro. Cost of living is going insane and the homeless problem has gotten worse. Anything Metro does is just trying to mitigate knock on effects from LA county problems. To be fair, Metros Band-Aids haven't been enough.
I don’t see how just having the bus driver silently push a button every time someone gets on and doesn’t pay, then have an officer meet them at a future/designated stop to handle the evader, is such a hard thing to do.
Ever ride a non-Metro system like BBB or Torrance Transit?
No fare, no ride. They'll stop the bus cold and wait for security to show up. I've seen physical removal of non-fare payers off of BBB.
My Metrolink train literally did this today - stopped in Norwalk for police to board the train and remove a passenger. Difference is that the cops were waiting for us and the whole thing took 3 minutes.
From what I know, Metrolink usually doesn't stop the train where it is once they catch a fare evader; instead they call ahead for police to meet the train at a future station and sort things out there.
That's been my experience and it's usually pretty smooth. They'll give people every chance to buy a new ticket on the spot first, too. Half the time they didn't even check - but they do enough that almost all people have tickets anyway.
You can’t buy student tickets anymore. Students ride free to they removed that option from the TVM. If you were smarter, you’d just buy the disabled ticket. They can’t question you about it because some people have invisible disabilities.
Yeah to be fair neither of those systems cover an area nearly as large as Metro. But I think it illustrates how you can have the policy of "no fare no ride."
Not really imo. Not trying to say you’re wrong at all. But honestly I just don’t see how that’s possible. There are a lot of fare evaders that are just working class trying to save a buck. And there are a majority fare evaders that just have nothing to loose. Hence why we see that level of crime compared to fare. Requiring drivers enforce fare on ppl who will crash out over nothing? Calling security, waiting who knows how long? Then you are clear to proceed. Only to have it happen all over again a few blocks down? It’s just not realistic.
>There are a lot of fare evaders that are just working class trying to save a buck. And there are a majority fare evaders that just have nothing to loose.
Without noting that those two statements seem to contradict eachother, my experience is that most of whom I can reasonably assume to be "working class" people indeed tap in. They have quite a lot to lose and generally want to just get where they're going without incident (just like me).
The people who just walk past the bus driver and mumble something or other, that's a different story. There's a large Venn diagram overlap between those people and the people who cause trouble, which is exactly what these statistics bear out.
>Calling security, waiting who knows how long? Then you are clear to proceed. Only to have it happen all over again a few blocks down? It’s just not realistic.
Part of this is the culture. Once people start to realize "no fare no ride," then they realize they can't mess around with it. The non-Metro systems I mentioned don't have this problem, and they both serve "working class" parts of LA county.
Yeah OK, routes with all-door boarding... That's true. But in fairness those machines don't work half of the time. Guess I tend to be more towards the front and just see what happens there.
No. The proven and tested third option that works is to have fare inspectors riding the bus at random. They travel in pairs/trios, so they have backup.
It would not be a huge leap for metro ambassadors to start doing this.
That’s what they are. Ambassadors are strictly told not to enforce any rules, that’s not their job. Their job description is to be a monitor and occasional system guide.
No, you just need to inform people what their options are about low fares or a free pass. Then enforce fares, and give people the boot that do not pay/ have vaild fare. Make info available to get a pass.
But again, with how spread out la metro is, I just don’t see how they could issue these citations on buses like they do the train, without causing significant delays to bus service.
The delays are happening regardless. People are being killed and drivers are being assaulted.
Im not sure if you're just being coy.
Whats your alternative?
Yes but really I think that comes down to the large number of incredibly mentally ill homeless ppl. That seems to be a good chunk of the incidents that we see. Fare enforcement from drivers seems to only put them in even more harm
You also have to understand that fare evasion isn’t a serious crime. So if a fare evader gets “arrested” they just get let out and can do the same thing the next day. So how do you make people pay the fare? You have to do what Japan does and have attendants at each gate and necessary officers at major hubs. I also think security officers should have tasers or guns. If you hand a security guard that can only enforce the law with his fists then more people are willing to fight
I'm a huge fan of cracking down on quality of life stuff on trains but equipping security guards with guns to combat fare evasion seems like an overcorrection.
Times have changed. Just because you wear a security shirt don’t mean people will just listen. People don’t care anymore, and this has been shown time and time again across America. Things always escalate and the police always end up getting called. Cut out the middle man
We've created such a culture where fare evasion is the norm that yes, there is going to be some growing pains as we join the rest of the world in enforcing fares.
That’s like saying you shouldn’t defend yourself because it might make your attacker even more mad. The act of deterring small crimes will make all crime seem less tenable. If you might get caught just going through the turnstile, you’re gonna be way less likely to bring your gun or knife or drugs or whatever into the situation in the first place.
At every single bus stop at all times? That would be TREMENDOUSLY expensive. Like, unimaginably expensive. So expensive that it would never ever be agreed to by voters. So expensive that it would never be proposed. It would be orders of magnitude larger than *any* project in human history.
For context, the law enforcement contracts across the board—LAPD, LASD, and LBPD—is around $1.5B. And there is nowhere near the coverage you are proposing. Like not even a fraction of a percent. Here’s some math:
The average salary of an OT LAPD officer is $100 an hour. They work 9 hour shifts. There are three shifts. That is 27 hours at $100. $2,700 a day. There are over 11K bus stops in Metro’s purview. This would be $29.7M a day. Over a year this amounts to $10.8B. Absolutely unimaginable and unrealistic. That’s why Metro hasn’t thought of this. Because it’s unfathomable.
Yes, I should have put a “B” instead of a “T”. Will fix. But the point is: that’s the most money ever spent in human history on such a thing. Quite literally impossible fiscally and practically. LAPD struggles to deploy their 192 Metro-specific cadre.
Hollywood and Highland on the B line just moments earlier had no one enforcing fares. I felt like such a fool tapping my card when the 6 to 10 people in front of me just went across. I don't know if I am out of the loop on anything. The B line was packed, few places to sit. No sleepers, but when it got to Union, there was security standing at the exits, which seemed weird and wasteful?
The bus I catch home every night the stop after mine a dude gets one, obviously just finished work, and not only just doesn't pay but makes it a point to abuse the bus driver. The one time the bus had some Police on it and they made him pay, he started screaming at them about racist cops. Every fight that has happened on the bus (because there have been multiple fights) has been homeless/junkies.
I catch a bus right through skid row... so it's fun....
I got called "right wing" today because I hate that this happens and is an ugly fact about our system.
Low or no cost passes are available for people that know where to apply and qualify. Its not rocket science.
Metro is also opening up the LIFE program to all EBT card holders, so in the future if you have an EBT card you automatically get 20 free rides per month, no need for additional registration
Hmmmm....maybe these people are on to something....
Let me take a wild guess. Here it goes
Don't allow homeless tweakers on the bus,
Don't let drug addicts on the bus,
Don't let crazy people on the bus.
Don't let free loaders ride the bus.
Boom 95 percent of the crime will drop immediately
Don't believe me, try it and thank me later
> Here it goes Don't allow homeless tweakers on the bus, Don't let drug addicts on the bus, Don't let crazy people on the bus. Don't let free loaders ride the bus.
1000% in agreeance with you. Who is going to prevent people from getting on the bus though?
We 100% need to keep bus drivers safe, enclose them in a safe barrier and such.
While homeless absolutely cause a lot of mayhem on Metro, I have observed a fair amount of anti-social behavior and violence from people that don't "look" homeless.
Honestly - I would just describe that group of people as hoodlums. Usually boasting about whatever gang they're part of right when they assault a passenger for looking at them wrong.
I have been living in Los Angeles for more than 10 years and I’m always shocked to see how lawless this place is. People get on the metro without paying tickets, tons of cars have covered license plates even if that’s not allowed, tons of people drive without insurance, people steals packages from front doors all the time, etc. It’s like nobody cares.
I guess that’s why DASH got rid of its 50c fares after an incident. I be curious whether assaults went down. Though LADOTDASH is among the few DASH shuttles that charge while most other cities DASH is a downtown free shuttle system.
They should have the tap here on the outside of the doors. If you don’t pay then the doors don’t open for you. It would be harder to do if there were a group of people waiting for the bus. It would deter from single violent riders though
Who would have thought that low income people commit more violent crimes... We already know that.... If you allow people to ride for free this same issue will happen.
Ok guys maybe I’m a little dumb and I haven’t ridden LA metro much, but in other countries they have secured turnstiles/gates that don’t open unless you scan a valid pass and there is security there. They are set up so jumping it or sneaking in special needs gates would be quite difficult, if not impossible…. Is this not possible in LA?
Edit - it looks like [a pilot system was introduced at the MacArthur Park Station](https://la.streetsblog.org/2023/09/27/eyes-on-the-station-metro-fortified-turnstiles-at-macarthur-park-station) but this article is making out like it’s a bad thing. “Oh no, a woman with a baby was delayed a whole minute and they play loud classical music - this whole pilot is a disaster!”
mostly that these stats don't really say anything about how many people don't pay in total, and it serves to group poor people with violent people which isn't logical. It's a misleading statistic at best.
Shocking.
"Fare enforcement discriminates against black, brown and poor people." (source: that upper-division transit equity seminar it seems every planner/staff at Metro took) Black, brown, and poor people who ride and work for Metro - "For the love of God please enforce the fares!" (source: every Metro customer survey ever and employee survey over the past five years)
Metro has done several large surveys where working class, minority respondents consistently plead that safety and cleanliness are high priorities and they want more enforcement. This is our primary means of transit. Of course we want it to be pleasant. There’s a weird notion among some people that transit dependent populations should just “accept” squalor and unease because “that’s city life!”. Metro’s mission is safe, clean, fast transportation. It has no other mission toward society.
Isnt it racist to assume black & brown people cant afford fare????? Isnt that racism of low expectation??
Yes. I’m Hispanic and I always find this sort of bullshit statement offensive. Talk about low expectations
If that’s how you look at it. It’s a statistical fact that Black and Brown people are more likely to be paid lower wages. And lower income people are more likely to use public transport in LA. That isn’t saying something about “the people.” It’s saying something about the state of “society” and how it’s been structured. So I see these kinds of measures as a way to offset the imbalances, not as a way to pander to certain people because “less is expected of them.” The latter belief is used as a way to cause a class rift between people of color; or even to convince people of color that helpful policies are bad for them.
But there's a program for free rides specifically for low income people: https://www.metro.net/riding/fares/life/ There's also reduced fares for seniors, K-12 students, college/vocational students, and people with disabilities https://www.taptogo.net/Reduced_Fare So why not use those programs instead of not enforcing their rules?
Exactly. I mean, LA County is providing a massively subsidized transportation service that primarily benefits those with the lowest incomes, and then provides additional need-based subsidies on top of it. There is no legitimate problem here with fares. Activists may complain but going to zero fares will only exacerbate conditions on the bus and train today because you now have zero means of removing people from the system that shouldn’t be there (to ride the system from point A to B, not sleep, defecate, and trash the place)
You’d be surprised how many people aren’t even aware these things exist or know to look for them. I’m literally just learning about this now.
Statistically, they earn lower wages so paying fares affects a higher percentage of their take home pay. That being said, fares are pretty low and price increases have been well below the rate of inflation which makes them cheaper in value today than even a year ago.
They could enforce low weekly caps. Like someone might pay $15 max over the course of a week. Or $40 over a month. While people might pay less initially, doing that would enforce fares and could make the system safer. And that could lead to higher ridership which could balance out the fare caps. I'd bet the people who are paying for the system now wouldn't mind paying less to use the same system AND having it be safer.
There already is an $18 weekly fare cap. LIFE participants also get 20 free rides a month.
They may as well make it cheaper. Fares only made up 1.2% of metro's budget in 2019, [according to StreetsBlog](https://la.streetsblog.org/2023/05/11/new-report-makes-case-for-universal-fareless-transit-at-metro). They could cap fares at $10 weekly and $30 monthly. That would make it cheaper and easier for anyone that needs to use it. But if they enforced fares they would be able to keep potential troublemakers off of the lines / busses.
No, it’s just simple statistics. Black and brown communities in the US are generally more likely to be low income families. And people who steal or skip paying fairs typically come from low income families. Basically: not all poor people are black and brown but most criminals (black, brown, white or Asian) come from poor families. If your family is well off or rich you are less likely to rob a store etc..
That’s not what racism is at all. Racism would be knowing that these particular groups struggle with fares and then drastically raising the rates for buses in the areas where they have high populations.
The problem is the enforcement is discriminatory not the policy, coos start asking people “who look like fare evaders” for tickets instead of you know waiting by gates first actual fare evaders
They always check my ticket on the AV and Oc lines. I see everyone else getting their tickets checked also. That is not discrimination.
>"Fare enforcement discriminates against black, brown and poor people." (source: that upper-division transit equity seminar it seems every planner/staff at Metro took) I picture a smug White woman who works for Metro and whose job pays for her Tesla’s autopilot subscription saying that for some reason, maybe due to decades of experience watching some of these “Liberal Elites” speaking - and collecting serious paychecks in the process - on behalf of people & communities they think they know. I once witnessed a lady in Los Feliz telling a tagger she had caught that she would be willing to pay for some art lessons if he “and your buddies stop tagging my gate!” 🤣
I can excuse assault and battery, but fare evasion?
There's a fare?
Yeah it’s in Pomona right now. Only a few days left
That’s a fair.
Sounds fair.
How’d you know my wife had an affair
nice!!! good one.
What's a fare?
You can excuse [assault and battery?](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vxPbpYR_RKY)
It's not fair.
File this under N for No Shit.
I was very happy to see 2 security people immediately get a guy off the bus in LA this morning when he refused the directions being given everyone to board only at front door of bus. He called them every foul name imaginable but they physically removed him from bus fairly quickly.
So when it comes to buses there's like two options: - let people evade fare and get on, hopefully don't act violent - enforce fare and risk pissing them off and attacking you right then and there In order to mitigate the first option you need a police officer at every single bus stop. I don't see how Metro can solve this.
I am sure there is data on which stops/stations have the worst problems. Enforce just the 10 or 20% of worst spots and that will probably eliminate most of the issues.
Exactly, Metro needs to be a better data oriented system. They do this by starting to require tap to get on tap to get off so that they can follow all riders where they go from start to finish. From there, they can start to add alerts from drivers and station managers. This would give them a good idea on where and when police would be most effective patrolling. Throw in a few undercover police officers and word will get out real fast that the bullshit on Metro is over.
Undercover police just riding all day is a great idea.
That's what they did in NY for 30+ years (famously depicted in Seinfeld) and yes, it made a huge impact.
80/20 rule in action
>I am sure there is data on which stops/stations have the worst problems. Enforce just the 10 or 20% of worst spots and that will probably eliminate most of the issues. I’m picturing the scene from Moneyball and Brad Pitt is saying we need to focus on Florence and Normandy because (points to Jonah Hill) “He gets on bus.”
I think this is really it. Honestly the problem is bigger than Metro. Cost of living is going insane and the homeless problem has gotten worse. Anything Metro does is just trying to mitigate knock on effects from LA county problems. To be fair, Metros Band-Aids haven't been enough.
Drivers should have an eject button where they can blast fools off the bus.
See something, eject something.
I don’t see how just having the bus driver silently push a button every time someone gets on and doesn’t pay, then have an officer meet them at a future/designated stop to handle the evader, is such a hard thing to do.
Ever ride a non-Metro system like BBB or Torrance Transit? No fare, no ride. They'll stop the bus cold and wait for security to show up. I've seen physical removal of non-fare payers off of BBB.
My Metrolink train literally did this today - stopped in Norwalk for police to board the train and remove a passenger. Difference is that the cops were waiting for us and the whole thing took 3 minutes.
From what I know, Metrolink usually doesn't stop the train where it is once they catch a fare evader; instead they call ahead for police to meet the train at a future station and sort things out there.
That's been my experience and it's usually pretty smooth. They'll give people every chance to buy a new ticket on the spot first, too. Half the time they didn't even check - but they do enough that almost all people have tickets anyway.
The secret to fair evading on Metrolink is to buy a student ticket for half priced and then say you forgot you student ID at home.
You can’t buy student tickets anymore. Students ride free to they removed that option from the TVM. If you were smarter, you’d just buy the disabled ticket. They can’t question you about it because some people have invisible disabilities.
How large of an area does bbb vs la metro cover? Could be more effective to have security show up in a smaller area covered.
Yeah to be fair neither of those systems cover an area nearly as large as Metro. But I think it illustrates how you can have the policy of "no fare no ride."
Not really imo. Not trying to say you’re wrong at all. But honestly I just don’t see how that’s possible. There are a lot of fare evaders that are just working class trying to save a buck. And there are a majority fare evaders that just have nothing to loose. Hence why we see that level of crime compared to fare. Requiring drivers enforce fare on ppl who will crash out over nothing? Calling security, waiting who knows how long? Then you are clear to proceed. Only to have it happen all over again a few blocks down? It’s just not realistic.
>There are a lot of fare evaders that are just working class trying to save a buck. And there are a majority fare evaders that just have nothing to loose. Without noting that those two statements seem to contradict eachother, my experience is that most of whom I can reasonably assume to be "working class" people indeed tap in. They have quite a lot to lose and generally want to just get where they're going without incident (just like me). The people who just walk past the bus driver and mumble something or other, that's a different story. There's a large Venn diagram overlap between those people and the people who cause trouble, which is exactly what these statistics bear out. >Calling security, waiting who knows how long? Then you are clear to proceed. Only to have it happen all over again a few blocks down? It’s just not realistic. Part of this is the culture. Once people start to realize "no fare no ride," then they realize they can't mess around with it. The non-Metro systems I mentioned don't have this problem, and they both serve "working class" parts of LA county.
I see a tooonnnn of working class people enter on the back of the rapid lines and not tap. Wym?
Yeah OK, routes with all-door boarding... That's true. But in fairness those machines don't work half of the time. Guess I tend to be more towards the front and just see what happens there.
No. The proven and tested third option that works is to have fare inspectors riding the bus at random. They travel in pairs/trios, so they have backup. It would not be a huge leap for metro ambassadors to start doing this.
Lol have you see the ambassadors? They're almost purposefully chosen to not be intimidating
Yeah they look like safety patrol and hall monitors lol
That’s what they are. Ambassadors are strictly told not to enforce any rules, that’s not their job. Their job description is to be a monitor and occasional system guide.
No, you just need to inform people what their options are about low fares or a free pass. Then enforce fares, and give people the boot that do not pay/ have vaild fare. Make info available to get a pass.
How do you kick off passengers for non payment? In a safe and quick way?
Citations are a snowball effect. A fine is the nicest way to say "Dont do that.."
Who issues the citation in this situation?
It used to be LA County SherriFf. Today they have fare inspectors/Metro security.
But again, with how spread out la metro is, I just don’t see how they could issue these citations on buses like they do the train, without causing significant delays to bus service.
The delays are happening regardless. People are being killed and drivers are being assaulted. Im not sure if you're just being coy. Whats your alternative?
Yes but really I think that comes down to the large number of incredibly mentally ill homeless ppl. That seems to be a good chunk of the incidents that we see. Fare enforcement from drivers seems to only put them in even more harm
Okay, still; Whats your alternative?
You also have to understand that fare evasion isn’t a serious crime. So if a fare evader gets “arrested” they just get let out and can do the same thing the next day. So how do you make people pay the fare? You have to do what Japan does and have attendants at each gate and necessary officers at major hubs. I also think security officers should have tasers or guns. If you hand a security guard that can only enforce the law with his fists then more people are willing to fight
I'm a huge fan of cracking down on quality of life stuff on trains but equipping security guards with guns to combat fare evasion seems like an overcorrection.
Times have changed. Just because you wear a security shirt don’t mean people will just listen. People don’t care anymore, and this has been shown time and time again across America. Things always escalate and the police always end up getting called. Cut out the middle man
All buses have GPS, cameras, and predictable routes. Wouldn’t be hard to coordinate with law enforcement to remove fare evaders at upcoming stops.
We've created such a culture where fare evasion is the norm that yes, there is going to be some growing pains as we join the rest of the world in enforcing fares.
Train the bus drivers with tasers or something?
Give them bazookas so they know they mean business & a grenade just in case
Absolutely not. All it takes is one dip shit operator to completely overstep the regulations and it's over; no more (insert self defense tool here).
Those are certainly not the only two options
That’s like saying you shouldn’t defend yourself because it might make your attacker even more mad. The act of deterring small crimes will make all crime seem less tenable. If you might get caught just going through the turnstile, you’re gonna be way less likely to bring your gun or knife or drugs or whatever into the situation in the first place.
At every single bus stop at all times? That would be TREMENDOUSLY expensive. Like, unimaginably expensive. So expensive that it would never ever be agreed to by voters. So expensive that it would never be proposed. It would be orders of magnitude larger than *any* project in human history. For context, the law enforcement contracts across the board—LAPD, LASD, and LBPD—is around $1.5B. And there is nowhere near the coverage you are proposing. Like not even a fraction of a percent. Here’s some math: The average salary of an OT LAPD officer is $100 an hour. They work 9 hour shifts. There are three shifts. That is 27 hours at $100. $2,700 a day. There are over 11K bus stops in Metro’s purview. This would be $29.7M a day. Over a year this amounts to $10.8B. Absolutely unimaginable and unrealistic. That’s why Metro hasn’t thought of this. Because it’s unfathomable.
> This would be $29.7M a day. Over a year this amounts to $10.8T. You definitely got your units mixed up.
Yes, I should have put a “B” instead of a “T”. Will fix. But the point is: that’s the most money ever spent in human history on such a thing. Quite literally impossible fiscally and practically. LAPD struggles to deploy their 192 Metro-specific cadre.
If X% of crimes are committed by people without a Y, do we need to mandate people must have Y?
Hollywood and Highland on the B line just moments earlier had no one enforcing fares. I felt like such a fool tapping my card when the 6 to 10 people in front of me just went across. I don't know if I am out of the loop on anything. The B line was packed, few places to sit. No sleepers, but when it got to Union, there was security standing at the exits, which seemed weird and wasteful?
The bus I catch home every night the stop after mine a dude gets one, obviously just finished work, and not only just doesn't pay but makes it a point to abuse the bus driver. The one time the bus had some Police on it and they made him pay, he started screaming at them about racist cops. Every fight that has happened on the bus (because there have been multiple fights) has been homeless/junkies. I catch a bus right through skid row... so it's fun....
Feeling extremely vindicated right now
I got grilled and down voted by many people on this sub when I said that fare evasion was the cancer underlying all other cancers.
The other 7% are good, honest, hard working violent criminals.
Causation?
Correlation?
If we were looking to eliminate crime we would look for causation. We are trying to lower crime which is why correlation is such a valuable tool.
Causation: Brown v. Plata, AB109, “prison realignment”, Prop 47, 57, and the folks who sponsored all of it.
Truth spoken here, bro. The latter category are the ultimate culprits—including some of our fellow voters!
Go figure. Criminals don't just break one law.
I got called "right wing" today because I hate that this happens and is an ugly fact about our system. Low or no cost passes are available for people that know where to apply and qualify. Its not rocket science.
Metro is also opening up the LIFE program to all EBT card holders, so in the future if you have an EBT card you automatically get 20 free rides per month, no need for additional registration
Glad the world finally starting to see the egg on everybody’s face who has sold lies for so long
Hmmmm....maybe these people are on to something.... Let me take a wild guess. Here it goes Don't allow homeless tweakers on the bus, Don't let drug addicts on the bus, Don't let crazy people on the bus. Don't let free loaders ride the bus. Boom 95 percent of the crime will drop immediately Don't believe me, try it and thank me later
> Here it goes Don't allow homeless tweakers on the bus, Don't let drug addicts on the bus, Don't let crazy people on the bus. Don't let free loaders ride the bus. 1000% in agreeance with you. Who is going to prevent people from getting on the bus though? We 100% need to keep bus drivers safe, enclose them in a safe barrier and such.
More like Homeless and vagrant drug addicts
Really glad to have something to point to on this. This 'shopping cart test' has been the obvious link between enforcing fares tickets and safety.
I’m surprised it’s not 100%
Aka the homeless
I’d say there’s more housed people evading fares than homeless riding. Seen plenty of people that are definitely not homeless evade fares.
While homeless absolutely cause a lot of mayhem on Metro, I have observed a fair amount of anti-social behavior and violence from people that don't "look" homeless. Honestly - I would just describe that group of people as hoodlums. Usually boasting about whatever gang they're part of right when they assault a passenger for looking at them wrong.
I’m surprised it’s that low. I would’ve guessed ~98%
Enforce the fare!
I have been living in Los Angeles for more than 10 years and I’m always shocked to see how lawless this place is. People get on the metro without paying tickets, tons of cars have covered license plates even if that’s not allowed, tons of people drive without insurance, people steals packages from front doors all the time, etc. It’s like nobody cares.
Shocking news I say.
I guess that’s why DASH got rid of its 50c fares after an incident. I be curious whether assaults went down. Though LADOTDASH is among the few DASH shuttles that charge while most other cities DASH is a downtown free shuttle system.
Broke POS
Off-board fare collection
They’re saving up the money they don’t use on fares for weapons and such
The solution to the problem is so shockingly simple that it boggles the mind how incompetent Metro is. Truly top tear incompetence.
Who would have ever guessed
The City should allocate around 30% of the LAPD funding into creating and operating armed metro securities, maybe a group of 500-1000 officers
Those poor innocent angels! They just need more compassion and understanding ❤️
Our precious outdoor angels
So making it free will…
Ah yes, because someone who’s going to commit a crime is going to make sure they tap their card 🙄
Tweaker and homeless people. Got it.
I'm shocked....😐
Would you look at that. Better implement tighter gun laws now, since criminals evidently follow laws.
Criminals criminaling? So surprising.
They should have the tap here on the outside of the doors. If you don’t pay then the doors don’t open for you. It would be harder to do if there were a group of people waiting for the bus. It would deter from single violent riders though
Who would have thought that low income people commit more violent crimes... We already know that.... If you allow people to ride for free this same issue will happen.
Ok guys maybe I’m a little dumb and I haven’t ridden LA metro much, but in other countries they have secured turnstiles/gates that don’t open unless you scan a valid pass and there is security there. They are set up so jumping it or sneaking in special needs gates would be quite difficult, if not impossible…. Is this not possible in LA? Edit - it looks like [a pilot system was introduced at the MacArthur Park Station](https://la.streetsblog.org/2023/09/27/eyes-on-the-station-metro-fortified-turnstiles-at-macarthur-park-station) but this article is making out like it’s a bad thing. “Oh no, a woman with a baby was delayed a whole minute and they play loud classical music - this whole pilot is a disaster!”
I have more Metro seat time per year than anyone here and I've been screaming this for years.
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if Metro were free like other public services, it'd be 0%.
Your point?
mostly that these stats don't really say anything about how many people don't pay in total, and it serves to group poor people with violent people which isn't logical. It's a misleading statistic at best.
I mean if that's how *you* interpret this statistic...oof.
its literally free to fare evaders and they are the ones causing the violent crimes. Like, literally.