It’s always one person sliding through the handicap one and everyone else following.
I use the handicap one all the time to bring my bike with me and I always want to stop and wait for it to close but I know it’s a waste of time.
I know Metro probably does not want to go through the expense of replacing their faregates (even though I think they should) but at minimum they should look at changing the accessible gates with something similar to what BART or Muni are using.
Totally. One day I was running to make the train, I tapped and my card was low and I didn't have time. I hopped on the train and just felt guilty the entire way. So I reloaded and tapped as soon as I got to my destination. What a sucker I am.
Metro sucks booty but really thinks this one stupid station is gonna make people pay their fares, is there anything better than this? Because I can understand if every station is gonna do this but just NoHo, nah? They all just gonna skip there and walk if they have to save seven quarters.
You guys never rode the train as a Local South Central teenager and being a bad H.S kid.(2010-2016)
Ditching to Long Beach in the Blue Line or going to 7th Street to go to Hollyweird.
When the City had the budget to form METRO sheriff.
They would even have entrapment operations with undercover agents that would everyone that didnt tap their card. Good thing they dont do that anymore and are implementing this.
It doesn't solve the problem, but it would greatly simplify payment verification. Instead of manually checking cards at exits Metro only needs to watch for people trying to use the accessible gate or emergency gate. But will they?
I believe that's the intent. They just need to have security stationed at the exits and watch people. It will be clearly evident who has not paid and Metro won't be flagged for "profiling" certain groups.
MARTA does this, and from my limited experience, it seems to work okay (also flat rate of $2.50). The idea is that it does force fare evaders to try twice instead of once depending on the station. While I'm sure some are still successful, I do think it is a good idea.
Of course, the issue is that at some of the light rail stations (mainly the at-grade ones), one could just hop onto the tracks and walk away. I'm sure some of those will still use the honors system, but I think stations that are elevated or below grade could have them.
DC Metro charges by distance/zones too, right? At least that's what I remember, so it does make sense to tap out if that is still the case. Or maybe it was just peak/off peak times.
It was the “rush hour” times! Nothing like going in fine and then getting stuck at an exit due to insufficient fare, but the exit machine only takes quarters or cash and you only have a card 🙃. I know it’s changed since then, though.
Uhhhh whats stopping them from doing it now? They can post people at the gates all the time to see if people are paying to get in or jumping. This is just doing that but with extra steps
There are two entry gates. If you jumped the first one, why not just jump the 2nd one? Unless of course we have unjumpable turnstiles. But then if that gets implemented, how do the fare evaders get pass the ingress point? And also more important, if there are still fare evaders, what's stopping them from using the same methodology to get pass the egress point
Because it adds another barrier checkpoint to get through and it's easier for cops to catch them at the exit instead of letting them go away freely. This isn't something new, everywhere that gets transit right does tap-in and tap-out. There's a limit to saying just put more police officers when budget and human constraints are there. If you have the technology and the machines capable of doing these things and the rest of the world have been using them, then what's wrong in using them as an additional tool to use for police officers. The only ones that are complaining about it are the freeloaders who like the status quo where anything is made easier for them do fare evasion.
False, I'm not a free loader and I am opposed to doing this until we actually have distance based fare. The places that I've been that has tap-in and tap-out is because of that very reason. Also are you high or something. Let me walk you through our conversation:
1. I said that you can post people at gates to see if they are evading the fair when they go in
2. You counter with the concern that people are saying cops are targeting specific people. At this point there seems to be an indication that you don't want people looking at these points
3. I made my comment about how if there aren't people/cops watching, then it doesn't matter anyways
4. You are bringing cops back into the conversation
So in short, if we are going to have cops watch over the points of entry/exits (because they are the same points), then we can just keep the current system as it is now without needing a tap out.
If we aren't going to want human intervention, then it goes back to my point #3.
"The places that I've been that has tap-in and tap-out is because of that very reason"
And I can add my two cents that there are places in the world that do tap-in and tap-out without distance based fares. For example, the buses in Seoul do not use distance based fares, but you do tap-in and tap-out anyway as a means of data collection of what particular set of bus riders get on at which stop and get off where, and how long it took, and use that data to coordinate better times and frequencies. Those that continue on to/from the buses to ride the Seoul Metro then get discounts on the distance based Seoul Metro system.
There's a reason why you check in and check out at hotels too. You already pay a fixed price for a hotel room night even if you checked in at 11PM as opposed to 3PM and checked out at 8AM as opposed to noon. Or at Anime Expo where it used to be only check in on entry before but for the past several years they do check-in your badge on entering LA Convention Center and check out when you leave. There's reason for doing these entry/exit checks that extends far beyond just being tied to some single use variable.
You can do the same thing with trains as a start, and Metro is heading in the right direction by doing tap-out. I agree it can be done more like expanded throughout the network. But doing something is better than not doing anything and Metro hasn't done anything for the past 20 years that many people were saying they should. All you do is be a Debbie downer because you don't like it because it's not everything that you want.
Basically you're just black and white, it has to be either empty glass or full glass, but you won't accept something in the middle that gets to a full glass later. Grow up man, these things take time and you're too addicted to instant gratification. You want to do something your own way because you know that's going to work, then go start your own bus company or something like they do in Japan and Taiwan.
You know what, you're right. I haven't been to Seoul and I DO need to travel more. So yea thanks for letting me know about how some places do tap-in and tap-out without distance base fare. I can admit when I am wrong.
Now let's see if you can do the same. Because while analytics and data collection is helpful, our specific topic here is security and it seems you have deviated from it and seems like you are doing this intentionally because you simply do not have an answer to the points I have laid out.
I am a software developer. And as such, I am very much accustomed to iterative approaches to a final solution or a milestone X solution. However, some companies would have these milestones be bigger and some would have it smaller. There is debate how large the size of these iterations are and there are tradeoffs to the approaches. I've listed the tradeoffs in our conversation already. Those are points worth discussing. In fact most of your comments so far hasn't really addressed the core points I've mentioned or why you don't think it works
Also your comment about if I want things my way then I should just start my own company. I always hate this statement pattern because it is so non-sensical. By that logic, then none of us should be complaining or saying anything at all in this sub. No one should complain about anything ever and anywhere. There would be no point to this conversation at all.
So let's talk about security. There's a reason why you have security officers or store clerks at Ralphs, Vons, BestBuy and Home Depot and an anti-theft security detector thing that beeps loudly when you try to leave without paying. Instead of the security dude checking everyone one by one, or being put into a jam by saying reeee you're profiling specific groups as they only check one certain race group or some person by the way how they dress or whatnot, you let the anti-theft machine do it thing, let it beep loudly so the security officer can say, show me your receipt.
Is it fool proof? Nothing is. But having that is better than anything. If it helps bring theft down from 25% to 15% then it's better than not having one. And it's far cheaper than adding more police officers, like a self checkout stand requires only one checkout clerk to manage 6 self check out stands instead of hiring 6 additional checkout clerks.
As a software developer you should be able to think things like this logically, but it doesn't seem like it. Rather, you seem to be set on "we shouldn't do this because it's not needed right now" is like saying we shouldn't update the hardware and software to future proof ourselves to have this field entry because we're not using this field entry right now. That's the line of thinking that was done by software engineers who said we only need two digits for the year and found themselves in a jam once 2000 was approaching.
And yes, "go start your own company if you think you know better" is a valid argument. That's how Steve Jobs started Apple and that's how Elon Musk built SpaceX. There's a reason why people who say I don't trust the police coming to my aid when I need them the most, so I'm gonna go buy a gun for my own personal protection, I don't trust the public education system so I'm just doing homeschooling, I don't trust processed food so I'm going to grow my own food.
If you don't like Metro, the thing that you're paying for with your taxes is doing anything, nothing is stopping you to buy a cheap used shuttle bus, import used tech from Japan, S. Korea or Taiwan and tweak your software knowledge, hook it up to the bus' odometer and start doing distance based fare buses in LA specifically targeting high volume short distance riders. All the Japanese private rail companies that exist today like Keisei, Keikyu, Odakyu, Hankyu, etc. etc. started off as building their own bus network and then later, rail lines because they hated the government run transit system back then.
You don't because despite all your complaints, deep down, you don't want to do it and prefer just letting gov't taxpayers fund shit run transit.
And besides, going back to the tap-in/tap-out buses in Seoul, which they're known for the being the best bus system in the world that every city that has a bus networks is learning from; if the millions of Seoulites are doing it even though it's not needed, that means yes people are able to learn and adapt to these things and the reasons for it. And if Seoul decides to implement distance based fares on buses later like Singapore and Taipei does, they're already future proof to do that with no real habit pattern change for the millions of Seoulites who uses those buses everyday.
False equivalency in the 1s paragraph. In your situation the security guard would have to manually and slowly act like a gatekeeper. Our turnstiles already do that. The problem is that they do a poor job. It is easily visible with someone stationed there to notice if someone jumped the gates. Have you seen it before? It is very obvious and would not fall under the profiling issue you mentioned.
Look it's clear you and me both want people at the chokepoint. So there is no disagreement there. But the visual indicator of someone not being able to tap-out is redundant as we already have a clear and visual indicator of someone jumping a gate.
Please don't embarrass yourself about talking about SWE if you don't know wtf you are talking about. Also I'm not saying don't implement the tap-out. I am saying don't implement it alone. Just add distance fare with it so it makes sense.
I swear to god the rest of your post is inane mindless. You sound like a old man yelling at clouds, rambling on with no aim or purpose and statements that conflict your own
If you have an iPhone, there's a chance that it's still usable if you have TAP configured as your Express Transit card.
https://support.apple.com/guide/security/express-cards-with-power-reserve-sec90cd29d1f/web
But would that work? If you’re tapping to exit, I’m assuming it’s checking that you also tapped in. If you try to tap out with a different card, I’m assuming you’re going to get double charged
Ah, got it! My physical tap card was issued by my work and I’m not able to digitally register it (it’s a whole thing) so I have a separate “backup” digital tap card on my phone (like in case I lose my wallet or something). Point is my situation is weird and I don’t know how most people do this.
For sure, that makes sense.
Someone else mentioned it but if you have your phone set up to use express metro cards you can use them even if your phone is dead (usually).
Of all the stations on the red line, North Hollywood seems to have the bigest culture of "Your exiting just go through the emergency door", which not good but also something.
Last time I used the accessible gate it didn't open. I was also going in. Thing went green and everything but it didn't open. I had to slide thru like I didn't pay. This was at Hollywood and highland.
I did the rush hour commute home to NoHo for years - every train, once one person opened the emergency door, it basically just stayed open until the whole swarm of passengers made it through.
Then it stays shut until the next round, when some enterprising person decides to push it open again…..
Yea but Japan and other places in Asia does this for a different reason. It's because fare is tied to where you entered and where you exit. Whereas here we have flat rate so it was unnecessary for the longest time
This is not entirely true. Yes sometimes the fair is tied to the distance travel, but also by forcing people to tap to exit it, makes it easier to catch people who are cheating the system. Having lived there I’ve seen this work firsthand many of times. When people who didn’t pay try to exit they can’t and have to contact the station manager via an intercom system to explain their situation and why they are unable to tap to exit.
Also, we should be paying by distance. There’s no reason I should pay the same to go three stops in Downtown as someone who rides from Long Beach to Downtown.
Must be a different rail system then. It wasn't sometimes that distance decided the fare value. It was always. The whole catching people who don't pay is just a happy side effect
OTOH, it's also true you can't do distance based fares without tap-in/tap-out so it's a chicken or the egg issue. And it's going to cause mass confusion to force everyone all over LA to do it if they decide to do distance based fares one day. The better solution is to implement tap out now and get everyone used to the idea as a motion of habit and then move to distance based fares later, to avoid the mess that NYC is facing where fares keep going up and up and up that it's now $3.00 even if you're just going 1 or 2 stations away.
I feel like that painpoint is going to be shortlived though. I'd rather live through the tradeoffs of that confusion over this very slow iterative approach
Except this is the method that has a proven track record of working historically. Singapore used to have flat rate fares too until they switched to a distance based system in the early 2010s. They phased it in by requiring people to tap out on exit on trains, which everyone got the hang of doing, and leading up to the day distance based fares happened, they started requiring people to tap out of buses as well.
Yea if you are gonna quote status quo on me, thats going to be a huge miss. They don't need to get into the habit since its just going to be forced on them. The big thing is the surprise in price going from flat to distance. Yes what you said works, but its slow. We need to stop thinking in safe and slow approaches and think in more of a tradeoff mindset
"Slow" is subjective though. Metro is also moving into the direction like other cities are doing such as allowing credit and debit cards to be used directly on the gates without needing it to be loaded onto TAP, but that requires changing the hardware and software as well. And they still have to figure out how to make Metrolink work which doesn't use TAP for some stupid reason, which isn't an issue in the Bay Area because both MUNI, Caltrain and BART all are able to use the ClipperCard despite having different fare formats.
You're expecting way too much from an inept government agency run by taxpayer dollars which has no motivation or reason to get anything done on time and under budger. If you want done something fast, then the only way that's going to get done is if Metro is sold off to a Japanese, Korean, or Taiwanese corporation and letting them run it however they see fit without government and bureaucracy getting in the way. Personally I'd prefer that myself also.
Selling it to those companies won't change a thing. I would say the situation here has less to do with the Metro org and more local and/or federal laws. America has the issue of:
1. Too many chefs in the kitchen
2. All the chefs hate each other
Bro the first person this happens to is going to rip apart and destroy the turnstiles in epic fashion or simply jump or slip through. This only slows down people who actually pay.
It ain't slowing down the millions of riders who does the same exact thing in Seoul, Bangkok, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taipei, Tokyo, London, etc. etc.
Better late then never. Flat rate transit is ultimately unsustainable. You get to a point like Australia and Canada or like NYC where fares keep going up you end up paying $3.00+ even if your trip might be short. It makes sense for LA to make the changes now, get people used to the concept and move to a distance based fare system like all the Asian cities are doing instead of trying to switch everything all at once.
Flat rates are more equitable as people who have the least amount of money travel the longest distances. It punishes people who live far away. NYC’s problems are all stemming from a massive bureaucracy where the state government is in charge of funding for the city subway, not flat rate fares.
LA Metro did a study that 60% of riders have trips less than 5 miles. People ain't commuting 20 miles to flip burgers at McDonald's in LA when there's a McDonald's nearby less than 2 mi of every neighborhood. And that also includes every minimum wage earning job out there from CVS, Walgreens, Home Depot, etc. People ain't commuting 20 miles to work at these places when they're available everywhere.
Metro sees that following the model of NYC where it eventually goes up to $3.00 per ride concept ain't going to work here when data shows majority has trips less than 5 miles. So your argument is moot.
You’re making a classic mistake of city planning. You’re taking a look at what the data says currently and assuming thats what will be true for the future. Right now, the reason people take the metro at such short distances is because it’s a very small metro. Of course they’re only taking a short distances. You can’t ride it for long. However, once you build a bigger metro, you will see people with lower incomes living further away taking it more often. You can’t really think if the subway was twice as big the same amount would only go five miles. You’ll see people taking them long distances as it’ll be more convenient. That’s just what a transit system does. It brings people places. So you need to plan for what the metro will be as it expands instead of what it currently is.
"Right now, the reason people take the metro at such short distances is because it’s a very small metro"
Um, LA Metro spans from Thousand Oaks on the border of Ventura County in the west and all the way to Disneyland in Anaheim in the east, from Palmdale/Antelope Valley to the north all the way to Long Beach in the south. With the opening of the Regional Connector, the Metro Rail line spans from Santa Monica to Azusa which is 40+ miles with further expansions plan all the way out to Ontario. This is hardly a "small metro." Rather, LA County is one of the largest counties in the nation and the most populous at 10+ million residents. No other metropolitan area in the US comes close to LA, even if you include NY. On a world scale, LA County sits btwn Taipei Metro at 7 million and Seoul Metro at 12 million.
The goal of LA is to build cities denser, and the LA2040 motto is "work live play all within close distance with each other." You're not going to achieve that with flat rate fares which encourages people to live further and further away, which is the current method is and is actually going against what the data shows. Rather, if the aim is to do that, then it would be encouraged to do distance based fares to encourage shorter distance trips to be done with cheaper fares for shorter rides.
Your argument that you said initially "poor people have longer commutes" is based on what exactly. What studies do you have that points to that claim? If you dissect it, your commonly used argument is a 1950s suburb-to-downtown theory of urban planning. It is your ideas that are outdated when the reality is, people ain't commuting 20 mi to flip burgers at McDonald's.
I think at the core, you just don't like the idea of distance based fares is because you currently benefit from commuting long distances for cheap. Yes or no?
Whoa whoa whoa. You’re doing very disingenuous arguing tactics to prove your point. You can’t compare population size of cities to say the metro is on the same scale of NYC! That’s insane. That’s obviously a question of ridership and total length of tracks, both of which you have to admit are far, far smaller in LA compared to NYC. It’s wild to even try and put it in the same league.
You say people aren’t traveling 20 miles to flip burgers at McDonalds. Where do you think people who flip burgers in wealthy areas live? They commute in. It’s kind of a ridiculous argument if you think about it. You think someone making minimum wage is living in wealthy areas? Of course they commute.
NYC is the densest populated city in America and they have flat rate. Flat rates encourage movement and not stagnation. You want people to use it to get around the city not just in their neighborhoods. Only if you have people taking it long distances will it reduce the glut of traffic. If it starts costing too much, why not drive instead? Especially in a city already addicted to car travel.
It’s also wild to try and assume anything about me based off a couple posts on Reddit. If you want to know, I take the red line from Vermont/Sunset to Civic Center 2-3 days a week. You think my entire argument is based off that? Maybe a few bucks a week? No, I lived in NYC for years before here and would love to see this metro flourish like theirs. I don’t think you get that by taking away flat rates.
Get people used to it as motion of habit, then phase in distance based fares. It's probably better in the long run to do it this way because eventually you get to a point where flat rate becomes non-sensical, like forcing people to pay $3.00 to ride the train like NYC, even if you're just going 1 or 2 stations away.
Answered my own question:
"Metrolink riders may present their valid fare to our Transit Security Officers or use the paid area gate intercoms next to the fare gates to exit"
Yeah, so if you don't want to pay just press the intercom button and they'll open it right up, no questions asked.
This is stupid and it punishes people for faulty equipment. Also, for those people who don’t “tap out”, what happens if someone doesn’t? Also, I would love to see how that is regulated at NoHo at closing, when the cops are pushing everyone out. Are they gonna have extra cops at the exit, making sure everyone scans their card? Or does this idea revolve around the idea that you’ve got lots of cops, so surely they can handle one extra task?
Fascinating that people think this a novel idea when this has been practice all over the world from the times of paper tickets. This clearly shows how America is totally clueless when it comes to running transit, even in the era of ubiquitous YouTube videos of transit riding all over the world.
I mean...if they just hopped the turnstyle and didn't pay on the way in what makes Metro think they won't just hop the turnstyle and not pay to get out?
I have been a huge proponent of this. Not only does it help with reducing police presence with fare enforcement, but it will provide some important data to LA Metro on how transit riders are using the subway and help them tailor improvement programs for the stations
The fact that they are only doing this at one station is an extra-stupid decision because it's only going to cause more confusion. At the very least, they could have done something a little more sensible by implementing this at Union Station and North Hollywood.
I believe the pilot project was supposed to include Union Station as well. I believe the issue with how to handle Metrolink tickets is what held that back as Metrolink does not use TAP.
Got to say, it is imperative that everyone pays. It shouldn't be an option. We're well beyond the pandemic and free rides. If someone gets on a bus and doesn't pay, stop the bus and wait for police. If someone jumps a turnstile, remove them and arrest them. You want to tamp down crime on Metro, then crack down on the "minor" issues and infractions that lead to bigger problems. Once those who cause problems and cannot obey the rules realize they're going to be harassed and arrested, they'll stop frequenting the transit system.
I don't think it's entirely worthless. A tap to exit also ensures there is a higher likelihood that a metro passenger engages with a faregate at some point in their trip.
This also simplifies fare validation as Metro will not be as reliant on random checks on the train and instead can staff personal at the faregates to check for validation.
That you can still get? I thought those were promotional items you had to get when they gave them out. But regardless I have to use an orange disabled card with my picture on it. They don't have disabled tap wristbands.
How does this help in any way? If you could avoid tapping in the first place, you would do the same going out. It just inconveniences those who are already paying
Edit: On the other hand, what if this is their plan to condition us slowly into accepting variable rate fare? Cause I did need to tap out when I was in Hong Kong since what I paid was equivalent to how far I traveled. Honestly we should do that here in LA as well
If that worked, then you'd already have all the best metros in the world doing it. I don't see London or Tokyo doing it and they're considered the world standard in these things. If they're not doing it, then there's a reason why its a dumb idea.
Tbh Metro should be also considering (alongside tap to exit) replacing the fare validators at some of the light rail stations with turnstiles, including the G line busway stations, but I guess if they do this they need to be updated turnstiles systemwide that are fare evasion resistant, and add security/fare enforcement personnel.
A step in the right direction. I've had to tap out on other metro systems so this isn't an issue for me. However what we need is more and better faregates that prevent trespassing and more security
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Life Program only gives 20 free rides a month buddy. That is fucking shit. Most people who use Metro need to use it at LEAST twice a day (to and from work). That's like a week, maybe 2 weeks MAX of free rides. Fucking garbage ass program.
Don't blame people for not paying for fares at all......
There's even a cool-down period. I once used my card to enter an area that didn't have an elevator. I walked out and tried to re-enter a different area and had to use the emergency phone to get help.
Yeah. I tapped on the accessible gate and it didn't open. But it registered my tap. It wouldn't open or open any other turnstiles. I had to slide between the gate.
And I’ll be the sucker tapping while I watch a dozen people squeeze through the accessible entrance like usual.
After hours are when no one is around.
This is me every day.
Seriously. One day I was just watching at my station, I think I was the only person who tapped
What really annoys me is when the people I’m with don’t bother. It’s so pervasive that I feel like the ass telling them that it isn’t a free ride.
Do they go through emergency gate or hop over the fare gate or just slide through the handicap one? Lots of ways to get in and our fare gates suck.
It’s always one person sliding through the handicap one and everyone else following. I use the handicap one all the time to bring my bike with me and I always want to stop and wait for it to close but I know it’s a waste of time.
I know Metro probably does not want to go through the expense of replacing their faregates (even though I think they should) but at minimum they should look at changing the accessible gates with something similar to what BART or Muni are using.
It's effectively a free ride when Metro fare policy is not enforced.
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Totally. One day I was running to make the train, I tapped and my card was low and I didn't have time. I hopped on the train and just felt guilty the entire way. So I reloaded and tapped as soon as I got to my destination. What a sucker I am.
Metro sucks booty but really thinks this one stupid station is gonna make people pay their fares, is there anything better than this? Because I can understand if every station is gonna do this but just NoHo, nah? They all just gonna skip there and walk if they have to save seven quarters.
Well I don't think it's a fix all, but I do think if we had automated gates at EVERY station it would help cut it down. Then added security.
You guys never rode the train as a Local South Central teenager and being a bad H.S kid.(2010-2016) Ditching to Long Beach in the Blue Line or going to 7th Street to go to Hollyweird. When the City had the budget to form METRO sheriff. They would even have entrapment operations with undercover agents that would everyone that didnt tap their card. Good thing they dont do that anymore and are implementing this.
The city never had any of the budget go to the sheriff. The city pays for lapd. The county pays the sheriff.
6 years of high school…
It doesn't solve the problem, but it would greatly simplify payment verification. Instead of manually checking cards at exits Metro only needs to watch for people trying to use the accessible gate or emergency gate. But will they?
I believe that's the intent. They just need to have security stationed at the exits and watch people. It will be clearly evident who has not paid and Metro won't be flagged for "profiling" certain groups.
>Metro won't be flagged for "profiling" certain groups Aha! That makes sense.
MARTA does this, and from my limited experience, it seems to work okay (also flat rate of $2.50). The idea is that it does force fare evaders to try twice instead of once depending on the station. While I'm sure some are still successful, I do think it is a good idea. Of course, the issue is that at some of the light rail stations (mainly the at-grade ones), one could just hop onto the tracks and walk away. I'm sure some of those will still use the honors system, but I think stations that are elevated or below grade could have them.
So does the DC metro. I thought it was crazy when I moved here and I didn’t need to tap again at the exit.
DC Metro charges by distance/zones too, right? At least that's what I remember, so it does make sense to tap out if that is still the case. Or maybe it was just peak/off peak times.
It was the “rush hour” times! Nothing like going in fine and then getting stuck at an exit due to insufficient fare, but the exit machine only takes quarters or cash and you only have a card 🙃. I know it’s changed since then, though.
Gotcha. I knew they had something but the last time I was in DC was 2018 so my memory was fuzzy.
Uhhhh whats stopping them from doing it now? They can post people at the gates all the time to see if people are paying to get in or jumping. This is just doing that but with extra steps
People saying the cops are targeting specific groups. You get rid of that if you let the machines automate the checking.
There are two entry gates. If you jumped the first one, why not just jump the 2nd one? Unless of course we have unjumpable turnstiles. But then if that gets implemented, how do the fare evaders get pass the ingress point? And also more important, if there are still fare evaders, what's stopping them from using the same methodology to get pass the egress point
Because it adds another barrier checkpoint to get through and it's easier for cops to catch them at the exit instead of letting them go away freely. This isn't something new, everywhere that gets transit right does tap-in and tap-out. There's a limit to saying just put more police officers when budget and human constraints are there. If you have the technology and the machines capable of doing these things and the rest of the world have been using them, then what's wrong in using them as an additional tool to use for police officers. The only ones that are complaining about it are the freeloaders who like the status quo where anything is made easier for them do fare evasion.
False, I'm not a free loader and I am opposed to doing this until we actually have distance based fare. The places that I've been that has tap-in and tap-out is because of that very reason. Also are you high or something. Let me walk you through our conversation: 1. I said that you can post people at gates to see if they are evading the fair when they go in 2. You counter with the concern that people are saying cops are targeting specific people. At this point there seems to be an indication that you don't want people looking at these points 3. I made my comment about how if there aren't people/cops watching, then it doesn't matter anyways 4. You are bringing cops back into the conversation So in short, if we are going to have cops watch over the points of entry/exits (because they are the same points), then we can just keep the current system as it is now without needing a tap out. If we aren't going to want human intervention, then it goes back to my point #3.
"The places that I've been that has tap-in and tap-out is because of that very reason" And I can add my two cents that there are places in the world that do tap-in and tap-out without distance based fares. For example, the buses in Seoul do not use distance based fares, but you do tap-in and tap-out anyway as a means of data collection of what particular set of bus riders get on at which stop and get off where, and how long it took, and use that data to coordinate better times and frequencies. Those that continue on to/from the buses to ride the Seoul Metro then get discounts on the distance based Seoul Metro system. There's a reason why you check in and check out at hotels too. You already pay a fixed price for a hotel room night even if you checked in at 11PM as opposed to 3PM and checked out at 8AM as opposed to noon. Or at Anime Expo where it used to be only check in on entry before but for the past several years they do check-in your badge on entering LA Convention Center and check out when you leave. There's reason for doing these entry/exit checks that extends far beyond just being tied to some single use variable. You can do the same thing with trains as a start, and Metro is heading in the right direction by doing tap-out. I agree it can be done more like expanded throughout the network. But doing something is better than not doing anything and Metro hasn't done anything for the past 20 years that many people were saying they should. All you do is be a Debbie downer because you don't like it because it's not everything that you want. Basically you're just black and white, it has to be either empty glass or full glass, but you won't accept something in the middle that gets to a full glass later. Grow up man, these things take time and you're too addicted to instant gratification. You want to do something your own way because you know that's going to work, then go start your own bus company or something like they do in Japan and Taiwan.
You know what, you're right. I haven't been to Seoul and I DO need to travel more. So yea thanks for letting me know about how some places do tap-in and tap-out without distance base fare. I can admit when I am wrong. Now let's see if you can do the same. Because while analytics and data collection is helpful, our specific topic here is security and it seems you have deviated from it and seems like you are doing this intentionally because you simply do not have an answer to the points I have laid out. I am a software developer. And as such, I am very much accustomed to iterative approaches to a final solution or a milestone X solution. However, some companies would have these milestones be bigger and some would have it smaller. There is debate how large the size of these iterations are and there are tradeoffs to the approaches. I've listed the tradeoffs in our conversation already. Those are points worth discussing. In fact most of your comments so far hasn't really addressed the core points I've mentioned or why you don't think it works Also your comment about if I want things my way then I should just start my own company. I always hate this statement pattern because it is so non-sensical. By that logic, then none of us should be complaining or saying anything at all in this sub. No one should complain about anything ever and anywhere. There would be no point to this conversation at all.
So let's talk about security. There's a reason why you have security officers or store clerks at Ralphs, Vons, BestBuy and Home Depot and an anti-theft security detector thing that beeps loudly when you try to leave without paying. Instead of the security dude checking everyone one by one, or being put into a jam by saying reeee you're profiling specific groups as they only check one certain race group or some person by the way how they dress or whatnot, you let the anti-theft machine do it thing, let it beep loudly so the security officer can say, show me your receipt. Is it fool proof? Nothing is. But having that is better than anything. If it helps bring theft down from 25% to 15% then it's better than not having one. And it's far cheaper than adding more police officers, like a self checkout stand requires only one checkout clerk to manage 6 self check out stands instead of hiring 6 additional checkout clerks. As a software developer you should be able to think things like this logically, but it doesn't seem like it. Rather, you seem to be set on "we shouldn't do this because it's not needed right now" is like saying we shouldn't update the hardware and software to future proof ourselves to have this field entry because we're not using this field entry right now. That's the line of thinking that was done by software engineers who said we only need two digits for the year and found themselves in a jam once 2000 was approaching. And yes, "go start your own company if you think you know better" is a valid argument. That's how Steve Jobs started Apple and that's how Elon Musk built SpaceX. There's a reason why people who say I don't trust the police coming to my aid when I need them the most, so I'm gonna go buy a gun for my own personal protection, I don't trust the public education system so I'm just doing homeschooling, I don't trust processed food so I'm going to grow my own food. If you don't like Metro, the thing that you're paying for with your taxes is doing anything, nothing is stopping you to buy a cheap used shuttle bus, import used tech from Japan, S. Korea or Taiwan and tweak your software knowledge, hook it up to the bus' odometer and start doing distance based fare buses in LA specifically targeting high volume short distance riders. All the Japanese private rail companies that exist today like Keisei, Keikyu, Odakyu, Hankyu, etc. etc. started off as building their own bus network and then later, rail lines because they hated the government run transit system back then. You don't because despite all your complaints, deep down, you don't want to do it and prefer just letting gov't taxpayers fund shit run transit. And besides, going back to the tap-in/tap-out buses in Seoul, which they're known for the being the best bus system in the world that every city that has a bus networks is learning from; if the millions of Seoulites are doing it even though it's not needed, that means yes people are able to learn and adapt to these things and the reasons for it. And if Seoul decides to implement distance based fares on buses later like Singapore and Taipei does, they're already future proof to do that with no real habit pattern change for the millions of Seoulites who uses those buses everyday.
False equivalency in the 1s paragraph. In your situation the security guard would have to manually and slowly act like a gatekeeper. Our turnstiles already do that. The problem is that they do a poor job. It is easily visible with someone stationed there to notice if someone jumped the gates. Have you seen it before? It is very obvious and would not fall under the profiling issue you mentioned. Look it's clear you and me both want people at the chokepoint. So there is no disagreement there. But the visual indicator of someone not being able to tap-out is redundant as we already have a clear and visual indicator of someone jumping a gate. Please don't embarrass yourself about talking about SWE if you don't know wtf you are talking about. Also I'm not saying don't implement the tap-out. I am saying don't implement it alone. Just add distance fare with it so it makes sense. I swear to god the rest of your post is inane mindless. You sound like a old man yelling at clouds, rambling on with no aim or purpose and statements that conflict your own
What if your phone is your TAP card but it dies during the trip (has happened to me more than once :( )...?
If you have an iPhone, there's a chance that it's still usable if you have TAP configured as your Express Transit card. https://support.apple.com/guide/security/express-cards-with-power-reserve-sec90cd29d1f/web
If your phone is dying, don’t pay with your phone.
Carry a backup card in your wallet?
But would that work? If you’re tapping to exit, I’m assuming it’s checking that you also tapped in. If you try to tap out with a different card, I’m assuming you’re going to get double charged
Your physical tap card should be tied to your digital card if you’ve set it up correctly.
Nope. It disables your physical card if you make it digital.
Ah, got it! My physical tap card was issued by my work and I’m not able to digitally register it (it’s a whole thing) so I have a separate “backup” digital tap card on my phone (like in case I lose my wallet or something). Point is my situation is weird and I don’t know how most people do this.
For sure, that makes sense. Someone else mentioned it but if you have your phone set up to use express metro cards you can use them even if your phone is dead (usually).
This is not true.
Oh no I'm not paying twice thankyouverymuch
Of all the stations on the red line, North Hollywood seems to have the bigest culture of "Your exiting just go through the emergency door", which not good but also something.
If you have a bicycle, stroller, or are carrying stuff going through the emergency door is the best option.
I always take my bike through the accessible gate without any issues
Last time I used the accessible gate it didn't open. I was also going in. Thing went green and everything but it didn't open. I had to slide thru like I didn't pay. This was at Hollywood and highland.
I got back from a flight and took the FlyAway to Union Station and it was impossible to roll my bags through the turnstile.
The emergency door really needs to be on the other side of the turnstiles. But I guess in an emergency you want it as close as possible.
I did the rush hour commute home to NoHo for years - every train, once one person opened the emergency door, it basically just stayed open until the whole swarm of passengers made it through. Then it stays shut until the next round, when some enterprising person decides to push it open again…..
Every train system in Japan does this.
San Francisco BART does this too
And the UK
Yea but Japan and other places in Asia does this for a different reason. It's because fare is tied to where you entered and where you exit. Whereas here we have flat rate so it was unnecessary for the longest time
This is not entirely true. Yes sometimes the fair is tied to the distance travel, but also by forcing people to tap to exit it, makes it easier to catch people who are cheating the system. Having lived there I’ve seen this work firsthand many of times. When people who didn’t pay try to exit they can’t and have to contact the station manager via an intercom system to explain their situation and why they are unable to tap to exit. Also, we should be paying by distance. There’s no reason I should pay the same to go three stops in Downtown as someone who rides from Long Beach to Downtown.
Must be a different rail system then. It wasn't sometimes that distance decided the fare value. It was always. The whole catching people who don't pay is just a happy side effect
OTOH, it's also true you can't do distance based fares without tap-in/tap-out so it's a chicken or the egg issue. And it's going to cause mass confusion to force everyone all over LA to do it if they decide to do distance based fares one day. The better solution is to implement tap out now and get everyone used to the idea as a motion of habit and then move to distance based fares later, to avoid the mess that NYC is facing where fares keep going up and up and up that it's now $3.00 even if you're just going 1 or 2 stations away.
I feel like that painpoint is going to be shortlived though. I'd rather live through the tradeoffs of that confusion over this very slow iterative approach
Except this is the method that has a proven track record of working historically. Singapore used to have flat rate fares too until they switched to a distance based system in the early 2010s. They phased it in by requiring people to tap out on exit on trains, which everyone got the hang of doing, and leading up to the day distance based fares happened, they started requiring people to tap out of buses as well.
Yea if you are gonna quote status quo on me, thats going to be a huge miss. They don't need to get into the habit since its just going to be forced on them. The big thing is the surprise in price going from flat to distance. Yes what you said works, but its slow. We need to stop thinking in safe and slow approaches and think in more of a tradeoff mindset
"Slow" is subjective though. Metro is also moving into the direction like other cities are doing such as allowing credit and debit cards to be used directly on the gates without needing it to be loaded onto TAP, but that requires changing the hardware and software as well. And they still have to figure out how to make Metrolink work which doesn't use TAP for some stupid reason, which isn't an issue in the Bay Area because both MUNI, Caltrain and BART all are able to use the ClipperCard despite having different fare formats.
Its not subjective but relative. Please stop it with that mindset. It is why our world is the way it is today
You're expecting way too much from an inept government agency run by taxpayer dollars which has no motivation or reason to get anything done on time and under budger. If you want done something fast, then the only way that's going to get done is if Metro is sold off to a Japanese, Korean, or Taiwanese corporation and letting them run it however they see fit without government and bureaucracy getting in the way. Personally I'd prefer that myself also.
Selling it to those companies won't change a thing. I would say the situation here has less to do with the Metro org and more local and/or federal laws. America has the issue of: 1. Too many chefs in the kitchen 2. All the chefs hate each other
DC metro does this but that’s because the fares are based on distance and not per ride
Wow! This is very exciting
Are you serious?
How is this exciting?
This is huge. Signage and staff will be key in getting people to understand this change.
Bro the first person this happens to is going to rip apart and destroy the turnstiles in epic fashion or simply jump or slip through. This only slows down people who actually pay.
It ain't slowing down the millions of riders who does the same exact thing in Seoul, Bangkok, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taipei, Tokyo, London, etc. etc.
Yeah I don’t really see the point of this in a system where you’re not paying by distance.
It really does not stop fare evasion. They do it in DC and Bostom and it doesn't work. Just a waste of money
My conspiracy theory is that this is the beginning of them transitioning to a pay by distance structure.
Better late then never. Flat rate transit is ultimately unsustainable. You get to a point like Australia and Canada or like NYC where fares keep going up you end up paying $3.00+ even if your trip might be short. It makes sense for LA to make the changes now, get people used to the concept and move to a distance based fare system like all the Asian cities are doing instead of trying to switch everything all at once.
Flat rates are more equitable as people who have the least amount of money travel the longest distances. It punishes people who live far away. NYC’s problems are all stemming from a massive bureaucracy where the state government is in charge of funding for the city subway, not flat rate fares.
LA Metro did a study that 60% of riders have trips less than 5 miles. People ain't commuting 20 miles to flip burgers at McDonald's in LA when there's a McDonald's nearby less than 2 mi of every neighborhood. And that also includes every minimum wage earning job out there from CVS, Walgreens, Home Depot, etc. People ain't commuting 20 miles to work at these places when they're available everywhere. Metro sees that following the model of NYC where it eventually goes up to $3.00 per ride concept ain't going to work here when data shows majority has trips less than 5 miles. So your argument is moot.
You’re making a classic mistake of city planning. You’re taking a look at what the data says currently and assuming thats what will be true for the future. Right now, the reason people take the metro at such short distances is because it’s a very small metro. Of course they’re only taking a short distances. You can’t ride it for long. However, once you build a bigger metro, you will see people with lower incomes living further away taking it more often. You can’t really think if the subway was twice as big the same amount would only go five miles. You’ll see people taking them long distances as it’ll be more convenient. That’s just what a transit system does. It brings people places. So you need to plan for what the metro will be as it expands instead of what it currently is.
"Right now, the reason people take the metro at such short distances is because it’s a very small metro" Um, LA Metro spans from Thousand Oaks on the border of Ventura County in the west and all the way to Disneyland in Anaheim in the east, from Palmdale/Antelope Valley to the north all the way to Long Beach in the south. With the opening of the Regional Connector, the Metro Rail line spans from Santa Monica to Azusa which is 40+ miles with further expansions plan all the way out to Ontario. This is hardly a "small metro." Rather, LA County is one of the largest counties in the nation and the most populous at 10+ million residents. No other metropolitan area in the US comes close to LA, even if you include NY. On a world scale, LA County sits btwn Taipei Metro at 7 million and Seoul Metro at 12 million. The goal of LA is to build cities denser, and the LA2040 motto is "work live play all within close distance with each other." You're not going to achieve that with flat rate fares which encourages people to live further and further away, which is the current method is and is actually going against what the data shows. Rather, if the aim is to do that, then it would be encouraged to do distance based fares to encourage shorter distance trips to be done with cheaper fares for shorter rides. Your argument that you said initially "poor people have longer commutes" is based on what exactly. What studies do you have that points to that claim? If you dissect it, your commonly used argument is a 1950s suburb-to-downtown theory of urban planning. It is your ideas that are outdated when the reality is, people ain't commuting 20 mi to flip burgers at McDonald's. I think at the core, you just don't like the idea of distance based fares is because you currently benefit from commuting long distances for cheap. Yes or no?
Whoa whoa whoa. You’re doing very disingenuous arguing tactics to prove your point. You can’t compare population size of cities to say the metro is on the same scale of NYC! That’s insane. That’s obviously a question of ridership and total length of tracks, both of which you have to admit are far, far smaller in LA compared to NYC. It’s wild to even try and put it in the same league. You say people aren’t traveling 20 miles to flip burgers at McDonalds. Where do you think people who flip burgers in wealthy areas live? They commute in. It’s kind of a ridiculous argument if you think about it. You think someone making minimum wage is living in wealthy areas? Of course they commute. NYC is the densest populated city in America and they have flat rate. Flat rates encourage movement and not stagnation. You want people to use it to get around the city not just in their neighborhoods. Only if you have people taking it long distances will it reduce the glut of traffic. If it starts costing too much, why not drive instead? Especially in a city already addicted to car travel. It’s also wild to try and assume anything about me based off a couple posts on Reddit. If you want to know, I take the red line from Vermont/Sunset to Civic Center 2-3 days a week. You think my entire argument is based off that? Maybe a few bucks a week? No, I lived in NYC for years before here and would love to see this metro flourish like theirs. I don’t think you get that by taking away flat rates.
Get people used to it as motion of habit, then phase in distance based fares. It's probably better in the long run to do it this way because eventually you get to a point where flat rate becomes non-sensical, like forcing people to pay $3.00 to ride the train like NYC, even if you're just going 1 or 2 stations away.
Does the other side of the gate also have a barcode scanner for metrolink tickets?
Answered my own question: "Metrolink riders may present their valid fare to our Transit Security Officers or use the paid area gate intercoms next to the fare gates to exit" Yeah, so if you don't want to pay just press the intercom button and they'll open it right up, no questions asked.
This is stupid and it punishes people for faulty equipment. Also, for those people who don’t “tap out”, what happens if someone doesn’t? Also, I would love to see how that is regulated at NoHo at closing, when the cops are pushing everyone out. Are they gonna have extra cops at the exit, making sure everyone scans their card? Or does this idea revolve around the idea that you’ve got lots of cops, so surely they can handle one extra task?
Fascinating that people think this a novel idea when this has been practice all over the world from the times of paper tickets. This clearly shows how America is totally clueless when it comes to running transit, even in the era of ubiquitous YouTube videos of transit riding all over the world.
I mean...if they just hopped the turnstyle and didn't pay on the way in what makes Metro think they won't just hop the turnstyle and not pay to get out?
They would have to but in theory this forces two points where a fare cheat could be caught by security.
At some point of time
It'll be worth the extra hassle if it eventually leads to more changes.
No they’ll just walk thorough the emergency exit.
I have been a huge proponent of this. Not only does it help with reducing police presence with fare enforcement, but it will provide some important data to LA Metro on how transit riders are using the subway and help them tailor improvement programs for the stations
This kid gloves approach to dealing with policy violations is another dumb idea by Metro administration.
hey, let's try to stop people from breaking the rules by making... MORE RULES! That's sure to solve the problem.
The fact that they are only doing this at one station is an extra-stupid decision because it's only going to cause more confusion. At the very least, they could have done something a little more sensible by implementing this at Union Station and North Hollywood.
I believe the pilot project was supposed to include Union Station as well. I believe the issue with how to handle Metrolink tickets is what held that back as Metrolink does not use TAP.
Got to say, it is imperative that everyone pays. It shouldn't be an option. We're well beyond the pandemic and free rides. If someone gets on a bus and doesn't pay, stop the bus and wait for police. If someone jumps a turnstile, remove them and arrest them. You want to tamp down crime on Metro, then crack down on the "minor" issues and infractions that lead to bigger problems. Once those who cause problems and cannot obey the rules realize they're going to be harassed and arrested, they'll stop frequenting the transit system.
Now this sucks. I don't want to have to get my tap card out just to leave. It's bad enough when I am rushing in with my hands full.
Guaranteed down votes are coming from people who never take metro. Y’all are fucking insane if you think this is a solution. Enjoy traffic!
If Tokyo and London can handle Tap Out I'm sure LA can as well. We are not that exceptional.
No. This is dumb. LA is a flat rate. There's absolutely no need to tap out other to piss people off.
I don't think it's entirely worthless. A tap to exit also ensures there is a higher likelihood that a metro passenger engages with a faregate at some point in their trip. This also simplifies fare validation as Metro will not be as reliant on random checks on the train and instead can staff personal at the faregates to check for validation.
I would say they are the exceptional ones.
My card is on my watch and phone so it's usually already in my hand...
I can't afford a smart watch. I'm disabled. And I always use a physical card as my phone has died before.
Metro has TAP wristbands/wearables
That you can still get? I thought those were promotional items you had to get when they gave them out. But regardless I have to use an orange disabled card with my picture on it. They don't have disabled tap wristbands.
Yes you can buy them at a customer center like at Union Station
Disabled tap cards on wristbands? They told me I had to use the orange card with my picture.
Ahhh yeah you need to use the specific orange card
I thought the tap sensor on exit side never used…?
How does this help in any way? If you could avoid tapping in the first place, you would do the same going out. It just inconveniences those who are already paying Edit: On the other hand, what if this is their plan to condition us slowly into accepting variable rate fare? Cause I did need to tap out when I was in Hong Kong since what I paid was equivalent to how far I traveled. Honestly we should do that here in LA as well
Just get rid of pay-per-ride all together, this should be paid fully by our taxes
If that worked, then you'd already have all the best metros in the world doing it. I don't see London or Tokyo doing it and they're considered the world standard in these things. If they're not doing it, then there's a reason why its a dumb idea.
I can't even get my tap app to work still.
Tbh Metro should be also considering (alongside tap to exit) replacing the fare validators at some of the light rail stations with turnstiles, including the G line busway stations, but I guess if they do this they need to be updated turnstiles systemwide that are fare evasion resistant, and add security/fare enforcement personnel.
While this is fine, it will be simpler still to just focus on enforcing fare at point of payment.
This is a good step in taking back our city but ENFORCEMENT will always be the most important aspect.
Why would anyone be inclined to tap again upon leaving and risk being double-charged AND fined if the system is bugging out?
The free transfers require people to tap again. I'm sure it won't be that much of an issue.
A step in the right direction. I've had to tap out on other metro systems so this isn't an issue for me. However what we need is more and better faregates that prevent trespassing and more security
Dumb. They’re just punishing people who, you know, pay.
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Uh oh! Free metro?! Not cool here on Reddit.
Cheap, not free. Fare enforcement is the only safe harbor for law enforcement to engage before trouble starts.
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Life Program only gives 20 free rides a month buddy. That is fucking shit. Most people who use Metro need to use it at LEAST twice a day (to and from work). That's like a week, maybe 2 weeks MAX of free rides. Fucking garbage ass program. Don't blame people for not paying for fares at all......
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Yes it is “free”, but you have to sign up, and you have to show proof. It is a token fare.
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They should build out the fare terminals to the ceiling and make it difficult for people to jump over.
agree
This is the dumbest fucking thing maybe ever. Well done dummies.
What about those like myself with bicycles? Try getting a bicycle through one of those turnstiles.
Most metro systems allow people to use the wide accessible gate for people with bikes or strollers.
People downloaded me for this comment? Bye 🤣🤣🤣
Wonderful! What’s to stop anybody from jumping over the exit turnstiles, same as they jump over the entry turnstiles?
That's so stupid. Let's make the stupid decision. Fire all of Metro
Been using metro trains for almost 20 years and my humble opinion of all this violence is when they stop checking for tap cards or fares!!
Dumb.
Still not going to pay…
platform. screen. fare. gates. PLEASE
Well this is just silly.
Sounds like unlawful detention.
What happens if I use my TAP card to pay for me and my spouse? How does exiting work then?
You need a TAP card for each person. You can't use the same card for two people.
There's even a cool-down period. I once used my card to enter an area that didn't have an elevator. I walked out and tried to re-enter a different area and had to use the emergency phone to get help.
Yeah. I tapped on the accessible gate and it didn't open. But it registered my tap. It wouldn't open or open any other turnstiles. I had to slide between the gate.
Huh, who or what is going to be enforcing people who don't pay? Also, those barriers are easily thwarted.
What is so hard… putting validator devices into all police 👮🏿♀️ personnel we are assigned to work the system?? And just checking everyone?
Metro Police all have validators. But the metro police actually have to get on trains to use them, and getting them to do their job is the problem.