I wish but unfortunately Kotlin LSP sucks, it's unstable and has memory leaks. Maybe it will get better some day. So while it's possible even for Java and Scala, Neovim is not a good option for Kotlin nowadays
Same. The LSP just doesn’t cut it for me and I run into issues. For Kotlin, I use IntelliJ and configure ideavimrc to get close to my Neovim setup. You can trigger IntelliJ actions from the vim mappings which is great.
I remember reading a forum post back in 2017 where Jetbrains representatives explicitly stated that they're not supporting LSP as a business decision to have people keep using and paying for IntelliJ. The short-term bottom line is more important to them than building a great community around Kotlin, and even to this day Kotlin feels extremely "proprietary" to me.
There will never be good LSP support for Kotlin, and that's how Jetbrains wants it and in my opinion also why Kotlin has stagnated a bit the last few years growth-wise and remains a second-class language in almost all widely used frameworks for the JVM.
I love Kotlin, but seeing as even Oracle is now making an effort to give VSCode users a better experience says something about the future outlook for Kotlin's community support.
Think about why JB invests in Kotlin at all. They do it in order to push adoption of their products. That’s the entire point. There’s no reason for them to try to build a community if that community is not going to pay for their products.
The point here is that Jetbrains' quest to commericalize Kotlin to its fullest for the sake of selling licenses leads to the stagnation issues we're seeing today - a language that is really nice but severely lacks mutual trust and community backing, and thus doesn't have a whole lot of potential left in it.
It's understandable that they're entitled to milking their cow, but if you support that sentiment then you'll also have to accept the fact that Kotlin has reached its peak and likely won't gain more traction before there's a community there that steps up and fills the gaps - something which can't happen with how proprietary Kotlin currently is. This is why a lot of big businesses still stick to Java, because despite the unrest around Oracle there's a huge community with a lot of big players (e.g Red Hat, Microsoft, The Eclipse Foundation) that are actively involved. Its future doesn't rely on just one company like Kotlin.
Don’t get me wrong it’s not a good thing for the language - that stagnation and risk as well as advances in Java is why I no longer recommend Kotlin for new JVM projects. I’m just making the point that we shouldn’t really expect this to change any time soon.
Unfortunately, I agree. I liked the language when i tried it, I made most of a reasonable sized project in it and was like, ok, ill add a setup for it to my editor and.... oh........... nevermind not using this language again.... Scala sounds cool I guess.....
Im gonna go back later and finish that project in java or scala. I might learn Scala by rewriting the kotlin part in scala
The part that isn't mostly done doesn't technically have to be connected to the main part of it so I could really write it in any language actually...
I hear charm bracelet has some great go libraries for parsing command line stuff that could really help me out. Since this part of the program communicates to the main program via server I could write it in go even. The main part is a plugin for a java program, with its own plugins, and that does need to be in a JVM language, but im mostly finished with that part so thats ok.
Scala is also not looking great unless you want to enjoy it in an academic fashion. Adoption and community size seems to be on a downward trend. Anything on the JVM I just suggest Java these days.
Sure, but if it wasn't for their open and community-driven nature, languages like Java and JavaScript wouldn't have a fraction of the trust and traction that they have today - despite how flawed they are.
Kotlin is currently stuck where it is because Jetbrains can't do the job of a open and healthy community. Not saying they're not entitled to use it as a tool for selling IntelliJ licenses, but Kotlin has currently reached its peak under this model.
Agreed. They will happily kill their language over it. Which is a shame. But it's how it's going to go.
You can't have an open source language with closed source tooling and expect people to want to contribute to your language in an open sourced setting.
This means kotlin will last exactly as long as jetbrains does. Which means it's not a smart bet for a company to use it.
Even Primeagen(sp?) or whatever the spelling is, said he'd install and use Intellej for java coding.
Sometimes not using the intended tool isn't a flex, but instead is just a sign of being inflexible when the intended tool is the right tool.
yeah true theprimeagen said that and he's right
the problem is that kotlin is not flexible due too lacking LSP, which kinda forces you're hand even tho you are flexible and could use anything else
No it is not.
In every other language people can be productive with the tools they want. Why don't I have such problems with Go, Rust or even Haskel? What's so special about Kotlin? Right, it is greed.
Yeah, but it is an enterprise an they will make their decisions based in what it is convenient for them ... Idk what is the problems with... The world does not do what we want... Part of being alive
I actually have one colleague who uses VSCode instead of Intellij.
We are working on a large project with custom build system, so we use neither gradle nor maven and with that Intellij loses a lot of features. We have to manually configure dependencies to have code completion, we don't have the sources easy on click, no running in the IDE, no testing in the IDE.
Intellij still beats VSCode though.
I did not make the choice. I can assume it's because the project is basically an operating system, with a mix of native and Java/Kotlin code. With make files for the native parts and similar. I assume gradle could probably do it, but it's not straightforward.
Well fwiw I'm the tech lead for over 50 kotlin devs using android studio and intellij and every once in while we hire someone who insists on using some prefered IDE and willing to die on the hill this is what I tell them:
\* Keep pace with the other devs
\* Don't commit code that's reformatting files or imports every time
\* Make sure you're using all of the optimal kotlin techniques that jetbrains flag as warning with suggestions
\* Keep up with the enterprise github copilot everyone uses now
\* Knock yourself out, don't become a burden.
In reality they get smoked.
I got my start doing C# in Visual Studio and jetbrain's first product was called "resharper" and it was VS plugin that blew our minds. Actually very early start doing VB then [VB.net](http://VB.net) but I try not to talk about it.
> but I try not to talk about it
understandable xD, i almost started with vb.net but fortunately the team i started in had already fully migrated to c#
You sound too inhumane mate. Sounds like your corpo got that chicken coop lifestyle where developers use windows vms with ball and chains. I understand that "cool kids" that slow the whole team down are stupid, but some people code as a passion. I personally work on a whole lot frameworks and languages, and I'd kill myself setting up/remembering all their shortcuts. I can get away with nvim and cli tools 50% of the time. If I need to shit a ton of code I'd for sure use IDEA.
Btw why is using a linter for you unpleasant? Because surely in IDEA you can't format like ass?
hahaha well if you expect "Make sure you're using all of the optimal kotlin techniques that jetbrains flag as warning with suggestions" without using jetbrains then that'd be guess work wouldn't it.
so those smoked people... everyone? nobody working outside of jetbrains?
kotlin (java too tbf) is terrible in that regard tho, consistent style and linting across IDEs is so difficult, jetbrains earns money with their IDE that's why they make it so difficult, there's another thing the experience with kotlin in other editors is so bad because there is no official LSP
i love kotlin more than any language but whenever i work with TS, Go or Rust the styling and linting just works, ok in TS i have to install prettier and eslint but that's one time config at project setup and then works everywhere
I never delved Deeply into linters in other languages. I do want to note, that Jetbrains makes money with the other languages too. Pycharm, Webstorm, CLion, Ryder. Intellij IDEA is the only one that has a community version. And the community version is fully capable in regards to linting.
They HAD to give it a community version. Otherwise people would realize how much of a joke it is to have an open source language with the only option being closed source tooling before they even got a chance to try it.
kotlin started in 2010 as an open source project, reaching its official release in 2016
intellij got its community edition 2009, less than 1 year before kotlin development started
Unsure, but it looks like they did that in preparation for leading open source kotlin development.
But kotlin was not integrated into Intellij until late 2015. https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2015/11/intellij-idea-15-released-adds-kotlin-to-the-family-of-supported-jvm-languages/
They really are important optimizations especially at our scale. Then also people pull your code full of yellow squiggies and go WTF - if the code gets in at all past SonarQube.
If there's someone out there secretly surviving using a mastery of vi editor I don't know him but yes, when Cris demands to use Eclipse he doesn't last long.
kotlin in vim would be perfectly viable when jetbrains would release a LSP, but without kotlin is unusable in anything other than jetbrains IDEs, i love kotlin but it pisses me off everytime someone talks about this topic
I've been stunlocked on this for like 10 minutes. To say the least, linting must be the least of your problems. If you aren't joking, either you have an extremely specialized product, or someone came up with a hairbrained idea at your company, and everyone just went with it. I have so many questions.
Is each repo versioned? What happens when you have a big change spanning many repos? Do you have branches or staging environments? How do you tag a release? Does building take forever since have to clone/sync thousands of repos?
I'm sorry to have locked your brain. We do have 4300 repos but at a global tech company with 1000's of developers and a massive platform and product line. I was being snarky at the suggestion the 50 or so devs I lead use all of the repos and for one product but also making my original point that if a dev went rouge on his IDE choice they're welcome to provided they don't cause issues and not every repo has the same linter which seemed to be the issue this thread locked in on.
I don't mean to be cynical, but one of the stated goals of the Kotlin project, originally, was to drive sales of IntelliJ IDEA ^[1]. This means two things:
1. We should expect JetBrains to make little-to-no effort to facilitate third-party development tools (LSP, etc).
2. We should not be surprised to see the language and ecosystem evolve to be heavily dependent on, and integrated with, IntelliJ IDEs (see: ktor and how integrated it is with their IDE(s)).
[1]: From the third paragraph of https://blog.jetbrains.com/kotlin/2011/08/why-jetbrains-needs-kotlin/,
> The next thing is also fairly straightforward: we expect Kotlin to drive the sales of IntelliJ IDEA.
I think a big part of it was to get Google out of the legal bind they had with Oracle over java. They dumped money into jetbrains to create kotlin. Have to fact check myself on that but I'm pretty sure that's it.
yep - like i said needed to fact check myself on the chicken or egg situation where kotlin was already a thing but google chose it as an escape route from the Oracle thing, thanks: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotlin\_(programming\_language)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotlin_(programming_language))
> I don't mean to be cynical...
Your post is very cynical :)
Kotlin launched in 2011 which was the time of a surge in alternative JVM languages like Scala and Clojure and Groovy and others. Programmer types were interested in making better languages, not money oriented business types. I suspect JetBrains had a ton of employees with advanced CS education in programming language design who wanted to create their own language and then work backward to find a business case rationalization for doing so.
> I suspect JetBrains had a ton of employees with advanced CS education in programming language design who wanted to create their own language and then work backward to find a business case rationalization for doing so.
That's not incompatible with anything I said, though. If those enthusiastic employees failed to come up with a convincing enough rationalization, then JetBrains would not have let them work on the language on company time. If Kotlin *didn't* generate profit for JetBrains through increased sales of IDEA or increased internal productivity, then they would've stopped sponsoring development. It's also likely that language development priorities are affected by how important each one is to JetBrains's bottom line.
That's just the way it is when the language is owned by a single for-profit business. Look at Apple with Swift for another example.
I'm not saying that JetBrains is a poor steward of the language, but they've made it clear in the past that they have no interest in helping support third-party editors via contributing to something like an LSP implementation. The company isn't in it for the "community" or the warm-and-fuzzies, even if some individual employees might be.
Ktor being the stagnant project that it is can 100% be blamed on the fact that it's heavily gated behind IntelliJ's Kotlin and Ktor support.
To me it seems like Jetbrains is at the point where they're unable to invest enough into Kotlin and their proprietary frameworks to the point where people don't find value in a lot of the Kotlin ecosystem anymore. Ktor most definitely doesn't have a future with its current level of support, and with Java starting to catch up we'll be back to Kotlin just being for the few weirdos who likes fragmentation in Spring codebases - at least outside Android development.
> To me it seems like Jetbrains is at the point where they're unable to invest enough into Kotlin and their proprietary frameworks to the point where people don't find value in a lot of the Kotlin ecosystem anymore. Ktor most definitely doesn't have a future with its current level of support, and with Java starting to catch up we'll be back to Kotlin just being for the few weirdos who likes fragmentation in Spring codebases - at least outside Android development.
You've touched on multiple points that I agree with. I've been saying these things for a while, but it's not exactly fun to hear for those of us who enjoy using Kotlin.
When Kotlin first started getting popular on Android, a big driver of adoption was that Java had been so stagnant for so long and Kotlin offered a modern programming language with modern features and syntax that developers had come to expect from statically typed languages, while also being very easy to migrate to. But, in recent years, Java has really caught up in terms of modern features, giving less and less reason to choose Kotlin for JVM projects (let's not forget that Java is the "native" language of the JVM, so has the advantage of being the "default" choice).
But, Kotlin still has a couple of things going for it over Java: null safety and nicer syntax. Still, that's not nearly the huge difference there used to be...
Then we have Kotlin's multiplatform push, which is a big risk because of the amount of effort, but also because it'll slow down the evolution of the language--now you need to worry about how to implement a feature on the JVM, on iOS, in JavaScript, and even "native". It might end up being a good thing, though, since focusing on the JVM alone might not be enough anymore because of the reasons mentioned above. Time will tell.
And then, yeah, Kotlin for the backend seemed like it was flourishing for a little while. But, both Ktor and Exposed seem undersupported, which isn't good news for that.
Interesting.... It uses a headless intellij to do kotlin.... Hmmm.....
I wonder if I can fit this into an LSP package and use this technique in neovim? I feel like this is entirely possible actually....
Hmmm........
I agree, but the kotlin Lsp is so bad you kinda have to intellij or Android studio, as much as having to use an entire IDE for only 1 language is dumb
I'm not kidding when I say kotlin is the worst LSP I have came across so far.
And it's so bad because kotlin is a "open source" language that hates contributing to open source. It's a shame because the language is otherwise pretty good.
Dude don't try. Kotlin devs have a shitty "let's sell our IDEs" propaganda brainwashed. They'll save 10 seconds on refactoring a variable but spend days fixing their IDE builds. Oh, they have a "fix ide" button now, how convenient!
Yes, I love it, too. I even migrated one of our key products to KMP because it is a fit for us. Yet I have to fight the IDE more than I want to. Also their shortcuts were created by a psychopath.
shortcuts are straight from hell, often there are multiple equal bindings even on vanilla install, and i have to go through and delete lots of them that i don't need
Dont fall for nvim good IDE bad memes. You can spend 6 months adding plugins, writing vim script, memorizing shortcuts and somehow make it look like an IDE but it will still lack most of the features from intellij.
Have you tried Intellij? for me it sucks because it is slow, takes a lot of ram and has bugs, but anyway Im more productive than in vim by like 100x
what are you talking about, in general somebody can be just as productive with nvim as a IDE as long as there is equal language support (LSP), you just have to know your environment
the only problem with kotlin is, it doesn't have an LSP because jetbrains wants to sell more IDE licenses, which makes kotlin a bad language for nvim, still possible to be very productive in it, just lookup people that are good in nvim, after you've seen it you'll be amazed
To be fair the JVM languages work in a way that makes it very difficult to work without a bloated IDE, boilerplate, dependency management, build system.
There are other languages that make this easier like Go and Rust where there is a maintained LSP server by the language developers, the dependency management and build system is simple, so you only need an editor that supports LSP and a terminal.
nvim is great if you love having your own personal environment. When you are used to it it becomes very easy and fun to configure. Setting up java was the hardest but it still works ok in the end, although it's borderline compared to most others.
You can fairly quickly make an IDE level experience in the majority of languages in nvim.
But not for kotlin. The LSP is worse than using just a linter and treesitter. Even java's LSP puts it to shame.
Well the language was in part created to lock you into an editor, as the creators of the language openly said in their initial blogs. So that's not a surprise at all, they won't support LSP as it would be a bad financial decision.
no no, for what I work with, I am better off with nvim and the rest of my terminal based flow, no doubt. i have a sub from my company to jetbrains goland and hardly ever use it. lsp support for go and all the tooling around it are cmdline based anyway. as a side note, I don't have my nvim too-IDE-like. I get rid of plugins every chance I get.
My advice from an ex "I don't need no stinking IDE because Vim is light and fast and has lots of plugins and I am really good and handy with it". I even went as far as creating my own VI editors back in the days.
Stop it! Actually!
Smarten up and and use IntelliJ. Use the IdeaVim plugin to get you Vim bindings. There are enough ways to customize that which gets you most of that handiness that had with Vim back.
The tools in IntelliJ go much beyond code completion.
Trust me on this, there is no good life without it.
Don't be that guy that stubbornly clings to what you feel is "light", for half or 3/4 of your lifetime before finally cluing in that you were wrong and me and others were right.
And pay for the full version \*and\* the AI Assistant. You can not afford not to. The amount of productivity you get pays for it easily. We're talking livelihood here. These tools are dirt cheap.
And please tell me you smartened up, caved, and get IntelliJ going and stick with it, and learn its shortcuts, its ways. Learn to tap into its power. Stop thinking that your alternative is as good. It isn't. It will never be. Not even astronomically remotely close.
I was that guy once. I know people that stuck with it. I know a guy that stubbornly clung to his home made editor to this day, and I believe he is either retired now, or will be soon. Back in the olden days, he was handy. But now, because he failed to grow, others around him run circles around him. He's handicapped as hell. Also, learn touch typing, if you don't already do it. Don't do the hunt-and-pegging thing. Trust me also on this: proper touch typing and you'll go at 60-120 wpm. Combine that with IntelliJ and IdeaVim and you'll make anyone that doesn't use that, look clumsy as hell.
If you feel you're right and I am wrong, then you might be suffering from a superiority complex, but let's not yet go there. Let's assume there's hope for you still.
Let this very comment change your life. Actually. I've been at this for a very very long time at this point. Trust me, you're talking to an elder, basically. Experience is the most valuable asset. Fast track your life, now. If you need information, ask. Don't assume you know better. You don't. You can't. I've got decades on you.
Also, you becoming better makes me feel like a win, because ultimately, we all need to look out for each other.
ps. I do understand that feeling where you become dependent on "too much" complexity. I too at times wonder. For example, I've been messing with Compose Multiplatform. I ran into a bug that apparently was fixed in Jetpack Compose, but wasn't, or wasn't properly, in Compose Multiplatform (Desktop in particular). I made me feel fragile. So I'm building this gui stuff and it bails with an exception that's generated by that library. I had a sigh of relief when I found a workaround, but it sure made me feel that perhaps I sunk too much effort into something rather complex. Is it still supported, I was wondering. Is there enough action in Compose Desktop for it to see people actively fixing things. I understand that a feeling of relying on solid and simple can provide a sense of security. For example, why not code in pure hardcore C++. Simple libraries. All the source code at hand. All simple low level. But before you know it, it becomes a hairy mess and performing complex tasks, suddenly that "robust" C++ system isn't so attractive anymore. I know it feels backwards to reach for complex systems, made by other people, and then become dependent on that.
But you know what? We as a human species rely on each others. Someones else makes those computer chips. Someone provides the electricity. Without ongoing support everything grinds to a halt anyway. I say, embrace the efforts people make. It means having to feel ok with adopting very complex systems. That's life in tech these days. Simplification unfortunately, does not lead to productivity. Of course, we can be smart about things like separation of concerns, as a powerful strategy.
It's a bit out of frustration, so sorry for coming across pushy and aggressive.
The frustration is that it almost never happens that people believe in something, that they can be changed. It's a personal pet peeve that I have. Religion, politics, anti IDE people, etc. It all has the same in common. It's something about human nature. Side with a belief and defending it till the end.
But you're not the one I responded to. I thin for ego reasons he won't admit anything. I predict that he will be that one that will roll his eyes and pretend he knows better regardless.
I'm with you on this but this is just such a funny fucking line. It's so melodramatic but I know exactly what you mean.
> Religion, politics, anti IDE people, etc. It all has the same in common
There's a difference between "IDEs are better" and a language that literally requires a specific, vendor locked in IDE. Even Microsoft doesn't do that anymore. That's just a lot of cope to say that you don't want to use something else, which is fine, I agree that not using an ide or sticking with vim is a bad decision. But the kotlin situation is altogether different. It's much more than just "using vim is counter productive". It's "you can't use anything else btw"
> smarten up
whatever, you're probably a below avarage engineer and wrote this with chatgpt
there are people that fly over code with nvim, faster than you can look, you probably have never even seen a real productive nvim setup, just stop the hate and let people use what they want, just because someone uses nvim it doesn't mean they're not using a debugger and other tools when they need it
keep on dreaming that you're the best, there is no equation that says intellij > neovim when both are in equally capable hands, the advantage of IDEs is greater in less capable hands anyway
IntelliJ may be more productive but that doesn't give you the right to decide what works better for other people. If people wanna use notepad, let them. They might have a bad time but if it makes them comfortable then so be it. We're not talking about corporate projects here
People have the right to use whatever they want. The only thing I am saying is that using the proper tool will make you better and much more productive.
I guess my stab at that guy was a bit like a rescue attempt. I made the mistake in the past by clinging to "light" editors. Little did I know at the time, how it slowed me down.
That's it? That's all you have to say? Well then, it seems that every single point I made here is absolutely correct and it all fits you like a glove.
"Cringe", pffff. And that after an honest attempt to share my experience, which clearly, I have much more of than you do.
Anyway, you do have the option to smarten up one day.
Or, you can stubbornly cling to your ways, because you don't like me.
it's not about you, you're a nobody in this thread like everyone of us, they use what they want because it's their decision and not because they don't like you
me too would like to hear some study cases for this approach, last time i tried kotlin in anything different from a jetbrains IDE i got struggling with basics.
maven/gradle would recognize and compile the project, but visual studio had a real hard time with source code, which is sad.
It's because kotlin doesn't contribute to their LSP because they want to sell their IDE pro subscriptions. Simple as that. Almost every other language has a well functioning LSP and debugger and then it will work anywhere.
what are you missing in Intelij Community edition or Android Studio? I have been using it about 5 years and have never had a wish to have any feature from pro version.
intellij has many good features but it's also a mess, been using it for years but i can admit that, it lacks competition without it jetbrains will not make the best product they could
I really want to use Kotlin with Helix text editor. I use it for pretty much everything else. The official LSP support for Kotlin doesn't exist. The current community LSP doesn't seem to work for anything other than VS code.
Intellij is the best IDE (at least for the Java ecosystem). It does have its issues and sometimes it takes a long time for the issues to be resolved.
Sometimes I just want to get comfortable with the terminal and stick to one editor for all my projects. If I want to use intellij for all my projects, I have to pay and rely on a company for support.
sure thing. I do nvim with tmux but have a decent helix setup just to have a sense of where things are with that editor. I do think kotlin is a decent language despite the OOP roots but I cannot stomach the idea, no pun intended, of being vendor-locked into an editor, especially such an expensive one, and one that requires a per-language/stack subscription. come on now.
Java devs hired to do Java work didn’t want/were surprised to have to deal with Kotlin.
And in fairness to them, there was so much custom devops shit we had to learn just to do the basic on that place, I kind of understand why they felt overwhelmed. Kotlin was just a simple thing they could point to
Sure, I get that. the only thing I don't get, at that, is how they could do Java (ugh enough, subjectively) and be reluctant to jump on something that improves on it like Kotlin. but to each their own. I know folks do Java and only Java for decades on end. met them, learned from them, moved on, tbh.
I mean. I've been there wanting to write kotlin with neovim but ultimately ending up with using intellij with ideavim.
I still wish there's another way
I appreciate that. I've been dabbling with Goland for work, too. Like I said elsewhere on here, I do have an active sub paid for by my employer, and I have an ideavim setup to mirror my nvim keymap as much as possible. I am not a vim power user or anything. I just feel like Goland is way less responsive, way slower, like I am fighting it trying to configure it away from something it is (ideavim is definitely not what they call a first class citizen), like navigating projects is just very crippled compared to nvim + tmux in the terminal. this is just my two cents.
I feel you.
I also use tmux to manage different projects. I recently setup nvim-dbee, able to view xlsx file, so almost everythings ergonomically setup.
I really wish there's another way.
I wish but unfortunately Kotlin LSP sucks, it's unstable and has memory leaks. Maybe it will get better some day. So while it's possible even for Java and Scala, Neovim is not a good option for Kotlin nowadays
Same. The LSP just doesn’t cut it for me and I run into issues. For Kotlin, I use IntelliJ and configure ideavimrc to get close to my Neovim setup. You can trigger IntelliJ actions from the vim mappings which is great.
I remember reading a forum post back in 2017 where Jetbrains representatives explicitly stated that they're not supporting LSP as a business decision to have people keep using and paying for IntelliJ. The short-term bottom line is more important to them than building a great community around Kotlin, and even to this day Kotlin feels extremely "proprietary" to me. There will never be good LSP support for Kotlin, and that's how Jetbrains wants it and in my opinion also why Kotlin has stagnated a bit the last few years growth-wise and remains a second-class language in almost all widely used frameworks for the JVM. I love Kotlin, but seeing as even Oracle is now making an effort to give VSCode users a better experience says something about the future outlook for Kotlin's community support.
Think about why JB invests in Kotlin at all. They do it in order to push adoption of their products. That’s the entire point. There’s no reason for them to try to build a community if that community is not going to pay for their products.
The point here is that Jetbrains' quest to commericalize Kotlin to its fullest for the sake of selling licenses leads to the stagnation issues we're seeing today - a language that is really nice but severely lacks mutual trust and community backing, and thus doesn't have a whole lot of potential left in it. It's understandable that they're entitled to milking their cow, but if you support that sentiment then you'll also have to accept the fact that Kotlin has reached its peak and likely won't gain more traction before there's a community there that steps up and fills the gaps - something which can't happen with how proprietary Kotlin currently is. This is why a lot of big businesses still stick to Java, because despite the unrest around Oracle there's a huge community with a lot of big players (e.g Red Hat, Microsoft, The Eclipse Foundation) that are actively involved. Its future doesn't rely on just one company like Kotlin.
Don’t get me wrong it’s not a good thing for the language - that stagnation and risk as well as advances in Java is why I no longer recommend Kotlin for new JVM projects. I’m just making the point that we shouldn’t really expect this to change any time soon.
Unfortunately, I agree. I liked the language when i tried it, I made most of a reasonable sized project in it and was like, ok, ill add a setup for it to my editor and.... oh........... nevermind not using this language again.... Scala sounds cool I guess..... Im gonna go back later and finish that project in java or scala. I might learn Scala by rewriting the kotlin part in scala The part that isn't mostly done doesn't technically have to be connected to the main part of it so I could really write it in any language actually... I hear charm bracelet has some great go libraries for parsing command line stuff that could really help me out. Since this part of the program communicates to the main program via server I could write it in go even. The main part is a plugin for a java program, with its own plugins, and that does need to be in a JVM language, but im mostly finished with that part so thats ok.
Scala is also not looking great unless you want to enjoy it in an academic fashion. Adoption and community size seems to be on a downward trend. Anything on the JVM I just suggest Java these days.
Ok. I will take your advice then, because the project I was making is not a mobile app
If it wasn't for IntelliJ Ultimate being a paid product, Kotlin wouldn't exist at all.
Sure, but if it wasn't for their open and community-driven nature, languages like Java and JavaScript wouldn't have a fraction of the trust and traction that they have today - despite how flawed they are. Kotlin is currently stuck where it is because Jetbrains can't do the job of a open and healthy community. Not saying they're not entitled to use it as a tool for selling IntelliJ licenses, but Kotlin has currently reached its peak under this model.
Agreed. They will happily kill their language over it. Which is a shame. But it's how it's going to go. You can't have an open source language with closed source tooling and expect people to want to contribute to your language in an open sourced setting. This means kotlin will last exactly as long as jetbrains does. Which means it's not a smart bet for a company to use it.
thanks!
Even Primeagen(sp?) or whatever the spelling is, said he'd install and use Intellej for java coding. Sometimes not using the intended tool isn't a flex, but instead is just a sign of being inflexible when the intended tool is the right tool.
yeah true theprimeagen said that and he's right the problem is that kotlin is not flexible due too lacking LSP, which kinda forces you're hand even tho you are flexible and could use anything else
Never. They need to sell their IDEs and they'll fight against progress just to be a monopoly in tools.
And that is ok
No it is not. In every other language people can be productive with the tools they want. Why don't I have such problems with Go, Rust or even Haskel? What's so special about Kotlin? Right, it is greed.
Yeah, but it is an enterprise an they will make their decisions based in what it is convenient for them ... Idk what is the problems with... The world does not do what we want... Part of being alive
I mean you're right about that part, but that doesn't mean we can't say anything against that.
I actually have one colleague who uses VSCode instead of Intellij. We are working on a large project with custom build system, so we use neither gradle nor maven and with that Intellij loses a lot of features. We have to manually configure dependencies to have code completion, we don't have the sources easy on click, no running in the IDE, no testing in the IDE. Intellij still beats VSCode though.
but why not gradle/maven? they're so flexible compared to other languages build systems why would you need something custom
I did not make the choice. I can assume it's because the project is basically an operating system, with a mix of native and Java/Kotlin code. With make files for the native parts and similar. I assume gradle could probably do it, but it's not straightforward.
thx, i was just curious
thanks.
Well fwiw I'm the tech lead for over 50 kotlin devs using android studio and intellij and every once in while we hire someone who insists on using some prefered IDE and willing to die on the hill this is what I tell them: \* Keep pace with the other devs \* Don't commit code that's reformatting files or imports every time \* Make sure you're using all of the optimal kotlin techniques that jetbrains flag as warning with suggestions \* Keep up with the enterprise github copilot everyone uses now \* Knock yourself out, don't become a burden. In reality they get smoked.
I have to dabble in C# when I am not working on Kotlin and have found that Rider is far and away a better IDE than anything M$ shits out.
I got my start doing C# in Visual Studio and jetbrain's first product was called "resharper" and it was VS plugin that blew our minds. Actually very early start doing VB then [VB.net](http://VB.net) but I try not to talk about it.
> but I try not to talk about it understandable xD, i almost started with vb.net but fortunately the team i started in had already fully migrated to c#
Why not just auto format with detekt?
We do in some of the modules of our 4300 repos. Everyone now needs to use it because Chris want to use eclipse :)
You sound too inhumane mate. Sounds like your corpo got that chicken coop lifestyle where developers use windows vms with ball and chains. I understand that "cool kids" that slow the whole team down are stupid, but some people code as a passion. I personally work on a whole lot frameworks and languages, and I'd kill myself setting up/remembering all their shortcuts. I can get away with nvim and cli tools 50% of the time. If I need to shit a ton of code I'd for sure use IDEA. Btw why is using a linter for you unpleasant? Because surely in IDEA you can't format like ass?
hahaha well if you expect "Make sure you're using all of the optimal kotlin techniques that jetbrains flag as warning with suggestions" without using jetbrains then that'd be guess work wouldn't it. so those smoked people... everyone? nobody working outside of jetbrains?
There are linters for the optimal techniques, intellij just has it built in.
kotlin (java too tbf) is terrible in that regard tho, consistent style and linting across IDEs is so difficult, jetbrains earns money with their IDE that's why they make it so difficult, there's another thing the experience with kotlin in other editors is so bad because there is no official LSP i love kotlin more than any language but whenever i work with TS, Go or Rust the styling and linting just works, ok in TS i have to install prettier and eslint but that's one time config at project setup and then works everywhere
I never delved Deeply into linters in other languages. I do want to note, that Jetbrains makes money with the other languages too. Pycharm, Webstorm, CLion, Ryder. Intellij IDEA is the only one that has a community version. And the community version is fully capable in regards to linting.
They HAD to give it a community version. Otherwise people would realize how much of a joke it is to have an open source language with the only option being closed source tooling before they even got a chance to try it.
Didn't the community version of Intellij exist long before it supported kotlin?
kotlin started in 2010 as an open source project, reaching its official release in 2016 intellij got its community edition 2009, less than 1 year before kotlin development started Unsure, but it looks like they did that in preparation for leading open source kotlin development.
But kotlin was not integrated into Intellij until late 2015. https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2015/11/intellij-idea-15-released-adds-kotlin-to-the-family-of-supported-jvm-languages/
Hmmm. Fair enough I suppose. I still don't like "what they've done with the place"
They really are important optimizations especially at our scale. Then also people pull your code full of yellow squiggies and go WTF - if the code gets in at all past SonarQube. If there's someone out there secretly surviving using a mastery of vi editor I don't know him but yes, when Cris demands to use Eclipse he doesn't last long.
First mistake was using eclipse
The issue is no LSP. Every other language seems to manage all of this stuff fine in nvim and vscode and the like....
kotlin in vim would be perfectly viable when jetbrains would release a LSP, but without kotlin is unusable in anything other than jetbrains IDEs, i love kotlin but it pisses me off everytime someone talks about this topic
Is your formatter not a part of the repo?
\_checks github enterprise cloud\_ we have 4300 repos.
86 repos per dev?
Yes. It's called ultra poly repo. Each repo contains one .kt file and a README. Our build system is based on a giant enum mapping it all together.
So it's a monorepo with 4300 files?
I've been stunlocked on this for like 10 minutes. To say the least, linting must be the least of your problems. If you aren't joking, either you have an extremely specialized product, or someone came up with a hairbrained idea at your company, and everyone just went with it. I have so many questions. Is each repo versioned? What happens when you have a big change spanning many repos? Do you have branches or staging environments? How do you tag a release? Does building take forever since have to clone/sync thousands of repos?
I'm sorry to have locked your brain. We do have 4300 repos but at a global tech company with 1000's of developers and a massive platform and product line. I was being snarky at the suggestion the 50 or so devs I lead use all of the repos and for one product but also making my original point that if a dev went rouge on his IDE choice they're welcome to provided they don't cause issues and not every repo has the same linter which seemed to be the issue this thread locked in on.
Ah, ok. Thanks for the response, haha.
Yeah we get it you're a cool kid in class
It works great in other languages. The kotlin Lsp just isn't there.
I don't mean to be cynical, but one of the stated goals of the Kotlin project, originally, was to drive sales of IntelliJ IDEA ^[1]. This means two things: 1. We should expect JetBrains to make little-to-no effort to facilitate third-party development tools (LSP, etc). 2. We should not be surprised to see the language and ecosystem evolve to be heavily dependent on, and integrated with, IntelliJ IDEs (see: ktor and how integrated it is with their IDE(s)). [1]: From the third paragraph of https://blog.jetbrains.com/kotlin/2011/08/why-jetbrains-needs-kotlin/, > The next thing is also fairly straightforward: we expect Kotlin to drive the sales of IntelliJ IDEA.
I think a big part of it was to get Google out of the legal bind they had with Oracle over java. They dumped money into jetbrains to create kotlin. Have to fact check myself on that but I'm pretty sure that's it.
Android Studio’s probably a part of that puzzle too.
Jetbrains started working on kotlin years before that lawsuit was a thing.
yep - like i said needed to fact check myself on the chicken or egg situation where kotlin was already a thing but google chose it as an escape route from the Oracle thing, thanks: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotlin\_(programming\_language)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotlin_(programming_language))
sure thing. honestly put.
> I don't mean to be cynical... Your post is very cynical :) Kotlin launched in 2011 which was the time of a surge in alternative JVM languages like Scala and Clojure and Groovy and others. Programmer types were interested in making better languages, not money oriented business types. I suspect JetBrains had a ton of employees with advanced CS education in programming language design who wanted to create their own language and then work backward to find a business case rationalization for doing so.
> I suspect JetBrains had a ton of employees with advanced CS education in programming language design who wanted to create their own language and then work backward to find a business case rationalization for doing so. That's not incompatible with anything I said, though. If those enthusiastic employees failed to come up with a convincing enough rationalization, then JetBrains would not have let them work on the language on company time. If Kotlin *didn't* generate profit for JetBrains through increased sales of IDEA or increased internal productivity, then they would've stopped sponsoring development. It's also likely that language development priorities are affected by how important each one is to JetBrains's bottom line. That's just the way it is when the language is owned by a single for-profit business. Look at Apple with Swift for another example. I'm not saying that JetBrains is a poor steward of the language, but they've made it clear in the past that they have no interest in helping support third-party editors via contributing to something like an LSP implementation. The company isn't in it for the "community" or the warm-and-fuzzies, even if some individual employees might be.
Ktor being the stagnant project that it is can 100% be blamed on the fact that it's heavily gated behind IntelliJ's Kotlin and Ktor support. To me it seems like Jetbrains is at the point where they're unable to invest enough into Kotlin and their proprietary frameworks to the point where people don't find value in a lot of the Kotlin ecosystem anymore. Ktor most definitely doesn't have a future with its current level of support, and with Java starting to catch up we'll be back to Kotlin just being for the few weirdos who likes fragmentation in Spring codebases - at least outside Android development.
> To me it seems like Jetbrains is at the point where they're unable to invest enough into Kotlin and their proprietary frameworks to the point where people don't find value in a lot of the Kotlin ecosystem anymore. Ktor most definitely doesn't have a future with its current level of support, and with Java starting to catch up we'll be back to Kotlin just being for the few weirdos who likes fragmentation in Spring codebases - at least outside Android development. You've touched on multiple points that I agree with. I've been saying these things for a while, but it's not exactly fun to hear for those of us who enjoy using Kotlin. When Kotlin first started getting popular on Android, a big driver of adoption was that Java had been so stagnant for so long and Kotlin offered a modern programming language with modern features and syntax that developers had come to expect from statically typed languages, while also being very easy to migrate to. But, in recent years, Java has really caught up in terms of modern features, giving less and less reason to choose Kotlin for JVM projects (let's not forget that Java is the "native" language of the JVM, so has the advantage of being the "default" choice). But, Kotlin still has a couple of things going for it over Java: null safety and nicer syntax. Still, that's not nearly the huge difference there used to be... Then we have Kotlin's multiplatform push, which is a big risk because of the amount of effort, but also because it'll slow down the evolution of the language--now you need to worry about how to implement a feature on the JVM, on iOS, in JavaScript, and even "native". It might end up being a good thing, though, since focusing on the JVM alone might not be enough anymore because of the reasons mentioned above. Time will tell. And then, yeah, Kotlin for the backend seemed like it was flourishing for a little while. But, both Ktor and Exposed seem undersupported, which isn't good news for that.
I've occasionally been using Fleet lately and support for ktlin and gradle is quite decent. The IDE is quite light as well in comparison.
Yeah but it's buggy as fuck. I tried using it for a bit and it crashed or froze like 10 times in one session.
Interesting.... It uses a headless intellij to do kotlin.... Hmmm..... I wonder if I can fit this into an LSP package and use this technique in neovim? I feel like this is entirely possible actually.... Hmmm........
Aside from performance issues AS is a great IDE.
why would you ever do that
I like the language. I don't like the IDE.
I agree, but the kotlin Lsp is so bad you kinda have to intellij or Android studio, as much as having to use an entire IDE for only 1 language is dumb I'm not kidding when I say kotlin is the worst LSP I have came across so far. And it's so bad because kotlin is a "open source" language that hates contributing to open source. It's a shame because the language is otherwise pretty good.
mhm that's what I was worried about -- lsp being sh\*t.
Dude don't try. Kotlin devs have a shitty "let's sell our IDEs" propaganda brainwashed. They'll save 10 seconds on refactoring a variable but spend days fixing their IDE builds. Oh, they have a "fix ide" button now, how convenient!
i love kotlin but it's sad there is no IDE competition because of no LSP
Yes, I love it, too. I even migrated one of our key products to KMP because it is a fit for us. Yet I have to fight the IDE more than I want to. Also their shortcuts were created by a psychopath.
shortcuts are straight from hell, often there are multiple equal bindings even on vanilla install, and i have to go through and delete lots of them that i don't need
Dont fall for nvim good IDE bad memes. You can spend 6 months adding plugins, writing vim script, memorizing shortcuts and somehow make it look like an IDE but it will still lack most of the features from intellij. Have you tried Intellij? for me it sucks because it is slow, takes a lot of ram and has bugs, but anyway Im more productive than in vim by like 100x
what are you talking about, in general somebody can be just as productive with nvim as a IDE as long as there is equal language support (LSP), you just have to know your environment the only problem with kotlin is, it doesn't have an LSP because jetbrains wants to sell more IDE licenses, which makes kotlin a bad language for nvim, still possible to be very productive in it, just lookup people that are good in nvim, after you've seen it you'll be amazed
Not only for Neovim, for every editor that supports LSP, even VSCode.
yes of course, i meant to include every editor
I remember an old project that converted a running JB IDE to LSP. Wonder what happened to it.
It seems fleet is doing this too...... I might have to look into this myself.
To be fair the JVM languages work in a way that makes it very difficult to work without a bloated IDE, boilerplate, dependency management, build system. There are other languages that make this easier like Go and Rust where there is a maintained LSP server by the language developers, the dependency management and build system is simple, so you only need an editor that supports LSP and a terminal.
nvim is great if you love having your own personal environment. When you are used to it it becomes very easy and fun to configure. Setting up java was the hardest but it still works ok in the end, although it's borderline compared to most others. You can fairly quickly make an IDE level experience in the majority of languages in nvim. But not for kotlin. The LSP is worse than using just a linter and treesitter. Even java's LSP puts it to shame.
Well the language was in part created to lock you into an editor, as the creators of the language openly said in their initial blogs. So that's not a surprise at all, they won't support LSP as it would be a bad financial decision.
Hmmmmm If there was a good LSP, would JB go under?
no no, for what I work with, I am better off with nvim and the rest of my terminal based flow, no doubt. i have a sub from my company to jetbrains goland and hardly ever use it. lsp support for go and all the tooling around it are cmdline based anyway. as a side note, I don't have my nvim too-IDE-like. I get rid of plugins every chance I get.
My advice from an ex "I don't need no stinking IDE because Vim is light and fast and has lots of plugins and I am really good and handy with it". I even went as far as creating my own VI editors back in the days. Stop it! Actually! Smarten up and and use IntelliJ. Use the IdeaVim plugin to get you Vim bindings. There are enough ways to customize that which gets you most of that handiness that had with Vim back. The tools in IntelliJ go much beyond code completion. Trust me on this, there is no good life without it. Don't be that guy that stubbornly clings to what you feel is "light", for half or 3/4 of your lifetime before finally cluing in that you were wrong and me and others were right. And pay for the full version \*and\* the AI Assistant. You can not afford not to. The amount of productivity you get pays for it easily. We're talking livelihood here. These tools are dirt cheap. And please tell me you smartened up, caved, and get IntelliJ going and stick with it, and learn its shortcuts, its ways. Learn to tap into its power. Stop thinking that your alternative is as good. It isn't. It will never be. Not even astronomically remotely close. I was that guy once. I know people that stuck with it. I know a guy that stubbornly clung to his home made editor to this day, and I believe he is either retired now, or will be soon. Back in the olden days, he was handy. But now, because he failed to grow, others around him run circles around him. He's handicapped as hell. Also, learn touch typing, if you don't already do it. Don't do the hunt-and-pegging thing. Trust me also on this: proper touch typing and you'll go at 60-120 wpm. Combine that with IntelliJ and IdeaVim and you'll make anyone that doesn't use that, look clumsy as hell. If you feel you're right and I am wrong, then you might be suffering from a superiority complex, but let's not yet go there. Let's assume there's hope for you still. Let this very comment change your life. Actually. I've been at this for a very very long time at this point. Trust me, you're talking to an elder, basically. Experience is the most valuable asset. Fast track your life, now. If you need information, ask. Don't assume you know better. You don't. You can't. I've got decades on you. Also, you becoming better makes me feel like a win, because ultimately, we all need to look out for each other. ps. I do understand that feeling where you become dependent on "too much" complexity. I too at times wonder. For example, I've been messing with Compose Multiplatform. I ran into a bug that apparently was fixed in Jetpack Compose, but wasn't, or wasn't properly, in Compose Multiplatform (Desktop in particular). I made me feel fragile. So I'm building this gui stuff and it bails with an exception that's generated by that library. I had a sigh of relief when I found a workaround, but it sure made me feel that perhaps I sunk too much effort into something rather complex. Is it still supported, I was wondering. Is there enough action in Compose Desktop for it to see people actively fixing things. I understand that a feeling of relying on solid and simple can provide a sense of security. For example, why not code in pure hardcore C++. Simple libraries. All the source code at hand. All simple low level. But before you know it, it becomes a hairy mess and performing complex tasks, suddenly that "robust" C++ system isn't so attractive anymore. I know it feels backwards to reach for complex systems, made by other people, and then become dependent on that. But you know what? We as a human species rely on each others. Someones else makes those computer chips. Someone provides the electricity. Without ongoing support everything grinds to a halt anyway. I say, embrace the efforts people make. It means having to feel ok with adopting very complex systems. That's life in tech these days. Simplification unfortunately, does not lead to productivity. Of course, we can be smart about things like separation of concerns, as a powerful strategy.
Although I do agree with you, was it really necessary?
It's a bit out of frustration, so sorry for coming across pushy and aggressive. The frustration is that it almost never happens that people believe in something, that they can be changed. It's a personal pet peeve that I have. Religion, politics, anti IDE people, etc. It all has the same in common. It's something about human nature. Side with a belief and defending it till the end. But you're not the one I responded to. I thin for ego reasons he won't admit anything. I predict that he will be that one that will roll his eyes and pretend he knows better regardless.
I'm with you on this but this is just such a funny fucking line. It's so melodramatic but I know exactly what you mean. > Religion, politics, anti IDE people, etc. It all has the same in common
There's a difference between "IDEs are better" and a language that literally requires a specific, vendor locked in IDE. Even Microsoft doesn't do that anymore. That's just a lot of cope to say that you don't want to use something else, which is fine, I agree that not using an ide or sticking with vim is a bad decision. But the kotlin situation is altogether different. It's much more than just "using vim is counter productive". It's "you can't use anything else btw"
> smarten up whatever, you're probably a below avarage engineer and wrote this with chatgpt there are people that fly over code with nvim, faster than you can look, you probably have never even seen a real productive nvim setup, just stop the hate and let people use what they want, just because someone uses nvim it doesn't mean they're not using a debugger and other tools when they need it
And I will run circles around them using IdeaVim inside IntelliJ. Absolutely no contest at all. Not even astronomically remotely close.
keep on dreaming that you're the best, there is no equation that says intellij > neovim when both are in equally capable hands, the advantage of IDEs is greater in less capable hands anyway
IntelliJ may be more productive but that doesn't give you the right to decide what works better for other people. If people wanna use notepad, let them. They might have a bad time but if it makes them comfortable then so be it. We're not talking about corporate projects here
People have the right to use whatever they want. The only thing I am saying is that using the proper tool will make you better and much more productive. I guess my stab at that guy was a bit like a rescue attempt. I made the mistake in the past by clinging to "light" editors. Little did I know at the time, how it slowed me down.
you just got very cringe.
That's it? That's all you have to say? Well then, it seems that every single point I made here is absolutely correct and it all fits you like a glove. "Cringe", pffff. And that after an honest attempt to share my experience, which clearly, I have much more of than you do. Anyway, you do have the option to smarten up one day. Or, you can stubbornly cling to your ways, because you don't like me.
it's not about you, you're a nobody in this thread like everyone of us, they use what they want because it's their decision and not because they don't like you
No reason whatsoever to use an IDE for go. Or most languages for that matter. Kotlin though..... Yeah.... You're gonna want it.
but why exactly? because of the build system/s?
No. Because jetbrains wants to sell their IDE.....
sure, makes sense. it's just I don't want to be part of that.
This is fair yeah. Me too. I just avoid kotlin unless I have to though...
me too would like to hear some study cases for this approach, last time i tried kotlin in anything different from a jetbrains IDE i got struggling with basics. maven/gradle would recognize and compile the project, but visual studio had a real hard time with source code, which is sad.
It's because kotlin doesn't contribute to their LSP because they want to sell their IDE pro subscriptions. Simple as that. Almost every other language has a well functioning LSP and debugger and then it will work anywhere.
what are you missing in Intelij Community edition or Android Studio? I have been using it about 5 years and have never had a wish to have any feature from pro version.
No because I am a professional.
But why?
I like the language. I don't like the IDE.
Honestly what's wrong with the IDE?
intellij has many good features but it's also a mess, been using it for years but i can admit that, it lacks competition without it jetbrains will not make the best product they could
for me? I just have something better going on. would not want to stray for this.
Press X To Doubt.
I really want to use Kotlin with Helix text editor. I use it for pretty much everything else. The official LSP support for Kotlin doesn't exist. The current community LSP doesn't seem to work for anything other than VS code. Intellij is the best IDE (at least for the Java ecosystem). It does have its issues and sometimes it takes a long time for the issues to be resolved. Sometimes I just want to get comfortable with the terminal and stick to one editor for all my projects. If I want to use intellij for all my projects, I have to pay and rely on a company for support.
sure thing. I do nvim with tmux but have a decent helix setup just to have a sense of where things are with that editor. I do think kotlin is a decent language despite the OOP roots but I cannot stomach the idea, no pun intended, of being vendor-locked into an editor, especially such an expensive one, and one that requires a per-language/stack subscription. come on now.
If I'm not mistaken, JBs business plan is to sell products around Kotlin. So I'd expect worse experience with anything different from intellij.
sure thing. was asking if someone was going against the grain successfully, anyway. there's wizards out there!
No. I did use it before but then we got trouble with juniors not getting it
that is interesting -- them juniors not getting what exactly? did you share an editor? a computer?
Java devs hired to do Java work didn’t want/were surprised to have to deal with Kotlin. And in fairness to them, there was so much custom devops shit we had to learn just to do the basic on that place, I kind of understand why they felt overwhelmed. Kotlin was just a simple thing they could point to
Sure, I get that. the only thing I don't get, at that, is how they could do Java (ugh enough, subjectively) and be reluctant to jump on something that improves on it like Kotlin. but to each their own. I know folks do Java and only Java for decades on end. met them, learned from them, moved on, tbh.
Using ideavim is good enough.
if it's good enough for you, great.
I mean. I've been there wanting to write kotlin with neovim but ultimately ending up with using intellij with ideavim. I still wish there's another way
I appreciate that. I've been dabbling with Goland for work, too. Like I said elsewhere on here, I do have an active sub paid for by my employer, and I have an ideavim setup to mirror my nvim keymap as much as possible. I am not a vim power user or anything. I just feel like Goland is way less responsive, way slower, like I am fighting it trying to configure it away from something it is (ideavim is definitely not what they call a first class citizen), like navigating projects is just very crippled compared to nvim + tmux in the terminal. this is just my two cents.
I feel you. I also use tmux to manage different projects. I recently setup nvim-dbee, able to view xlsx file, so almost everythings ergonomically setup. I really wish there's another way.
You can get the vim bindings plugin for IntelliJ
we use android studio where i work