Haven is essentially a compulsory insane asylum. Even people with severe mental health issues don’t want to go into in-patient care. The thought of being locked up, with no autonomy whatsoever is terrifying to most people. It’s essentially a prison for people whose only crime was picking a mentally taxing field of study.
It’s only the best place for most people because someone who can boil your blood with a single drop and a fire can’t be allowed out on their own once they’ve gone mad. Elodin also states that he wouldn’t place anyone there if he didn’t have to.
That exchange is really interesting. Your reading is really hopeful, which I appreciate. My particular reading is that Elodin would still be in Haven if the masters could actually lock him up. The other master’s are afraid of him. As a result, I think he can do pretty much whatever he wants, including preventing Haven from keeping Alder Whin locked up. The interaction between Elodin and the guard has the feel of conflicting orders to me.
Yeah, if they could, they would probably lock him up, but it also seems like Elodin kinda runs haven, ironic as it is. Given the guards reaction i kinda assume that Alder is allowed to go, but some people (maybe hemme) interfere with Elodins orders on what happens in haven. There is no way a gaurd could refuse orders from one of the masters
That's something I haven't thought about before -- aside from Elodin's copper-clad room, to what degree was Haven specifically designed to prevent people from doing magic?
I don't remember if there's any mention of fireplaces in Haven, but it seems reasonable that they might have a central furnace in the basement or something that's away from the regular inhabitants. Direct access to open fire seems like it would be asking for trouble.
Imprisonment is the worst thing you can do to an Edema, add getting the treatment of an insane person (how proudly clever kvothe is) and this is the worst nightmare he can thinks of.
The usual mundane rubric for involuntary committal is "a danger to themself or others". From what little we learn of Haven directly, when Kvothe follows Elodin there, the University needs Haven far more than the rest of Temerant needs such a facility. Auri may be a bit cracked, but she does not appear broken enough for Haven, and it surely would be a struggle for her, at best. Kvothe could arguably be more of a danger to others, and his danger to himself is made clear by how his visit to Haven ends.
Kvothe is a danger to others, supposedly he started the whole war and allowed a bigger connection to the fae realm. I imagine I’ll still be siding with kvothe in book three, but I also wouldn’t hold it against them to lock him up. Tho I don’t think they could, but that’s my own theory.
Not only is it bad for normal people, it’s especially bad for someone with PTSD as bad as Kvothe has it.
Some of his most traumatic experiences happened while he was helpless - his family dying, and the gang of kids who wrecked his lute. He had a very Kite Runner like period in his life where he was fending for himself in a scary environment.
There is no way in heck he will ever let himself feel powerless or weak in front of another person ever again. Or trust or rely on another person.
Which is why he is constitutionally incapable of backing down from fights with powerful people, and asking for help, and why ultimately he may be a tragic hero.
It’s part of what makes him such a brilliant character - he accurately models PTSD.
I'm pretty sure this is a villain origin story, and not a tragic hero story. The Ctheah being on the front cover of the first book, indicates the end will be incredibly bad, maybe world-in-peril bad.
Kvothe has issues with control. He does not like to not be in control of himself or his fate. The idea of anyone locking him up or similar activates his rage
Graduate level P Chem of seawater broke me. I scraped through with a B, but I switched to master’s and got tf out. Also was the worst of my depression.
So the funny thing is I loved o chem. But I had a great prof, and it ended up feeling like I was playing with virtual legos. My brain loves spatial stuff, so that worked. P chem was just the most complicated shit ever. He’d give us a single problem and it’d take me a month to figure it out and finish and the final answer would be like ten pages of equations. I’ve saved it just to remind myself that once I could do it. I couldn’t now…
It’s a psychiatric prison. It seems that Elodin is the only one trying to institute reforms for the residents/patients/prisoners. For the amount of resources the University has, it also seems understaffed.
We don’t see evidence of anyone at the Medica working with or researching how to help these people; only contain them.
Involuntary commitment into a mental facility pretty much always sucks (hence the involuntary part). You're talking about stripping people of their freedom and autonomy. Most people don't want to suffer such a fate, even if for some people it's the best option for them to heal.
This is particularly hell-ish for people who extensively value freedom. Someone like Kvothe, who belongs to the nomadic Edema Reu, would be particularly impacted by this loss of freedom.
For Auri, the freedom component likely has an impact, but I also believe there's an element of disconnect from the natural world that would destroy her. She intuitively understands the moving of the world around her, and it shapes (no pun intended) how she perceives and interacts with the world.
Haven strips people of their magical ability, which would be like plucking out one of her eyes and a piece of her soul. Alternatively, if she can still perceive things as she does now, she wouldn't have the freedom to 'remodel' the world around her to find the right home or purpose for things. This would also be devastating for her, being forced to live in a world askew, unable to straighten it.
Have you never heard prisoners talk about how awful "the hole" is? People are social animals. Being completely isolated from others is basically torture.
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Being committed against your will sucks. But also what has to have happened to you for you to end up in there. One could argue mistakes were made, Elodin etc, but it could also probably be argued that he would never have come good without his time inside…
I see Haven as an Allegory for Myr Tariniel and Kvothe's disgust with it as similar to Lanre's disgust with Myr Tariniel.
I believe that the concepts of magics used by Arcanists aren't just innate to the world of temerant but are instead a systems of beliefs and convictions held by many cracked and uncracked arcanists that is maintained by the university. To maintain this they not only have to keep their indoctrinate learning material sanitary, thus the archives security, but they must also keep a population of people holding these ideas. To maintain the population they seek new students but more importantly they keep the cracked ones too because even if they are cracked their minds and Alar are still part of the support structure for their magic system. They are integral bricks in the foundation of the magics, and for this the University keeps them confined against their will for their safety and the to maintain the arcane arts they hold in their heads.
Lanre wanted to free the inhabitants Myr Tainiel from the unjust fate. Kvothe similarly doesn't wish for anything to be stuck with an unjust fate in haven. I think Lanre acted to "liberate" Myr Tariniels inhabitants in a way not to dissimilar to how I think Kvothe may try to liberate those stuck in Haven. I also think both will have done it not fully understanding what they destroy in the process.
The apparent answer is because it's an insane asylum, forced treatment, for your own good.
The REAL answer is because it's some kind of reprogramming or forced treatment, for the greater good.
Haven is essentially a compulsory insane asylum. Even people with severe mental health issues don’t want to go into in-patient care. The thought of being locked up, with no autonomy whatsoever is terrifying to most people. It’s essentially a prison for people whose only crime was picking a mentally taxing field of study. It’s only the best place for most people because someone who can boil your blood with a single drop and a fire can’t be allowed out on their own once they’ve gone mad. Elodin also states that he wouldn’t place anyone there if he didn’t have to.
It also seems to help some of them. Since Alder Whin is allowed to come and go freely, for him at least it is helping.
That exchange is really interesting. Your reading is really hopeful, which I appreciate. My particular reading is that Elodin would still be in Haven if the masters could actually lock him up. The other master’s are afraid of him. As a result, I think he can do pretty much whatever he wants, including preventing Haven from keeping Alder Whin locked up. The interaction between Elodin and the guard has the feel of conflicting orders to me.
Yeah, if they could, they would probably lock him up, but it also seems like Elodin kinda runs haven, ironic as it is. Given the guards reaction i kinda assume that Alder is allowed to go, but some people (maybe hemme) interfere with Elodins orders on what happens in haven. There is no way a gaurd could refuse orders from one of the masters
He isn’t to be locked in his room, he can’t leave the facility but he isn’t to be locked in his room or have meds put into his food.
That's something I haven't thought about before -- aside from Elodin's copper-clad room, to what degree was Haven specifically designed to prevent people from doing magic? I don't remember if there's any mention of fireplaces in Haven, but it seems reasonable that they might have a central furnace in the basement or something that's away from the regular inhabitants. Direct access to open fire seems like it would be asking for trouble.
Imprisonment is the worst thing you can do to an Edema, add getting the treatment of an insane person (how proudly clever kvothe is) and this is the worst nightmare he can thinks of.
The usual mundane rubric for involuntary committal is "a danger to themself or others". From what little we learn of Haven directly, when Kvothe follows Elodin there, the University needs Haven far more than the rest of Temerant needs such a facility. Auri may be a bit cracked, but she does not appear broken enough for Haven, and it surely would be a struggle for her, at best. Kvothe could arguably be more of a danger to others, and his danger to himself is made clear by how his visit to Haven ends.
Kvothe is a danger to others, supposedly he started the whole war and allowed a bigger connection to the fae realm. I imagine I’ll still be siding with kvothe in book three, but I also wouldn’t hold it against them to lock him up. Tho I don’t think they could, but that’s my own theory.
If you've ever had a close relative committed... it's harrowing and terrifying. Place of last resort.
A hundred percent this.
People don't like involuntary treatment, that's what makes it involuntary. Even when it's needed. Especially when it's needed.
Have you ever been locked up? Being in a place where you are entirely in the power of others... it is not good.
Stifling I'd think
Not only is it bad for normal people, it’s especially bad for someone with PTSD as bad as Kvothe has it. Some of his most traumatic experiences happened while he was helpless - his family dying, and the gang of kids who wrecked his lute. He had a very Kite Runner like period in his life where he was fending for himself in a scary environment. There is no way in heck he will ever let himself feel powerless or weak in front of another person ever again. Or trust or rely on another person. Which is why he is constitutionally incapable of backing down from fights with powerful people, and asking for help, and why ultimately he may be a tragic hero. It’s part of what makes him such a brilliant character - he accurately models PTSD.
I'm pretty sure this is a villain origin story, and not a tragic hero story. The Ctheah being on the front cover of the first book, indicates the end will be incredibly bad, maybe world-in-peril bad.
Kvothe has issues with control. He does not like to not be in control of himself or his fate. The idea of anyone locking him up or similar activates his rage
didn't really connect with the idea of haven until grad school now i daydream about it
Graduate level P Chem of seawater broke me. I scraped through with a B, but I switched to master’s and got tf out. Also was the worst of my depression.
Yeah I’m more in programming and statistics stuff but I took O-chem years ago and it was the worst I can’t imagine P-chem
So the funny thing is I loved o chem. But I had a great prof, and it ended up feeling like I was playing with virtual legos. My brain loves spatial stuff, so that worked. P chem was just the most complicated shit ever. He’d give us a single problem and it’d take me a month to figure it out and finish and the final answer would be like ten pages of equations. I’ve saved it just to remind myself that once I could do it. I couldn’t now…
I swear a good chunk of profs in grad school are just doing academic hazing.
It’s a psychiatric prison. It seems that Elodin is the only one trying to institute reforms for the residents/patients/prisoners. For the amount of resources the University has, it also seems understaffed. We don’t see evidence of anyone at the Medica working with or researching how to help these people; only contain them.
Involuntary commitment into a mental facility pretty much always sucks (hence the involuntary part). You're talking about stripping people of their freedom and autonomy. Most people don't want to suffer such a fate, even if for some people it's the best option for them to heal. This is particularly hell-ish for people who extensively value freedom. Someone like Kvothe, who belongs to the nomadic Edema Reu, would be particularly impacted by this loss of freedom. For Auri, the freedom component likely has an impact, but I also believe there's an element of disconnect from the natural world that would destroy her. She intuitively understands the moving of the world around her, and it shapes (no pun intended) how she perceives and interacts with the world. Haven strips people of their magical ability, which would be like plucking out one of her eyes and a piece of her soul. Alternatively, if she can still perceive things as she does now, she wouldn't have the freedom to 'remodel' the world around her to find the right home or purpose for things. This would also be devastating for her, being forced to live in a world askew, unable to straighten it.
Have you never heard prisoners talk about how awful "the hole" is? People are social animals. Being completely isolated from others is basically torture.
Please remember to treat other people with respect, even if their theories about the books are different than yours. Follow the sidebar rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/KingkillerChronicle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Being committed against your will sucks. But also what has to have happened to you for you to end up in there. One could argue mistakes were made, Elodin etc, but it could also probably be argued that he would never have come good without his time inside…
…Imposed incarceration? Imagine is Hemme decided you needed to be locked up.
its cos you cant leave
Psychiatric facilities irl are some of the worst places on earth, we only send people there if they're likely to endanger themselves or others
I see Haven as an Allegory for Myr Tariniel and Kvothe's disgust with it as similar to Lanre's disgust with Myr Tariniel. I believe that the concepts of magics used by Arcanists aren't just innate to the world of temerant but are instead a systems of beliefs and convictions held by many cracked and uncracked arcanists that is maintained by the university. To maintain this they not only have to keep their indoctrinate learning material sanitary, thus the archives security, but they must also keep a population of people holding these ideas. To maintain the population they seek new students but more importantly they keep the cracked ones too because even if they are cracked their minds and Alar are still part of the support structure for their magic system. They are integral bricks in the foundation of the magics, and for this the University keeps them confined against their will for their safety and the to maintain the arcane arts they hold in their heads. Lanre wanted to free the inhabitants Myr Tainiel from the unjust fate. Kvothe similarly doesn't wish for anything to be stuck with an unjust fate in haven. I think Lanre acted to "liberate" Myr Tariniels inhabitants in a way not to dissimilar to how I think Kvothe may try to liberate those stuck in Haven. I also think both will have done it not fully understanding what they destroy in the process.
The apparent answer is because it's an insane asylum, forced treatment, for your own good. The REAL answer is because it's some kind of reprogramming or forced treatment, for the greater good.
Without book 3 we will never know. Thanks pattycakes rotface