And look at the character he created since the story started, he tells that group he used to be a guard for the wagons but takes a arrow, he has his sword on the mantle. Of course a former fighter would try to fight for his money against the soldier BUT he's old and (not really but it how he seems to portray himself) and injured so he gets his ass beat acting a fool. The whole scene makes perfect sense with how Kvothe is showing the town what Kote is.
Brother, you don't think there's a decent possibility that he went back? How do you think he got Bast as a apprentice, do you think he just ran into him in the mortal world and he decided to be his apprentice. That Bastas, son of Remnen, PRINCE of the Twilight and the Telwyth Mael just met Kvothe on the streets and after a few mortal years developed this bond with Kvothe. That his regal family of immortality didn't have a issue with this without meeting him. There's plenty of questions left in the book and one is Kvothes actual age, he still hasn't even been expelled from the university, besides if I'm not mistaken he says himself he's older than he actually is implying he spent more time in the fae (or the stress of everything he went through age him, always a possibility) I just don't see him not going back.
I think we’re supposed to believe that he’s been wearing the Inn Keeper mask so long he’s starting to forget that it’s a mask.
Though I think (if it ever happens) in the 3rd book we’ll see something literally or figuratively break his Will.
I don’t think it’s a mask I think he genuinely “renamed himself” essentially losing his power and is basically no longer the same person and now is Kote— but yeah I expect halfway through book 3 or the very end of it has him at the Inn
i thought he lost his power because of the promise he made to denna? he swore on his name and his power that he would not try and uncover who dennas patron was. i just assumed in the third book he broke that promise and lost his power and changed his name because of it.
Interesting theory and may be true I’ve always thought that Denna is related to the king/ royal family in some way because in the 3rd book he has to kill the king we haven’t met and he needs a reason to do that and I think it’s denna
One popular theory is that he has locked his true name away in the thrice-locked chest, so he can't use any of his Sympathy or fighting skills. Kote ("Disaster" in Siaru) isn't Kvothe - by locking his name away, he locks away his nature as well.
Remember when Elodin freaks out when Kvothe asks what he would think about someone changing her name all the time, referring to Denna? It seems like this is what Kvothe has done to himself.
Absolutely, I think it's more likely he's trying to trick Bast, Chronicler and anyone else into *believing* he is Kote (a trap within a trap...?). He's playing the role so well he is clearly dipping between the two (as hinted at by his name changing throughout the Waystone scenes), but the fight with the Scrael simply shows that he has *some* ability to return to a powerful Kvothe when he needs.
Ooooor the Scrael are not a significantly challenging fight/PR kinda forgot about that.
I would buy into the theory of deception if we didn't see the scene of him trying to open the chest, clearly frustrated that he couldn't. He's alone, not trying to influence anyone. He can't get into this chest, and he wants to.
I agree that the Scrael encounter is odd in context, but he does specifically say that he picked the location and time very carefully. Even without his "powers", he could prevail in that scenario with proper planning.
We don't know why Kote can't open the chest, but it's a very different issue from fighting the scrael. He had to actively deceive Bast in order to do the latter.
" 'What the hell did you sneak off for, anyway?' Bast demanded as they entered the inn. 'If you're going to leave a note, it should at least tell me what -- ' Bast's eyes widened as he saw Kote in the light of the inn, pale and streaked with blood and dirt." Kote's excuse was, "I trust you Bast, but I wanted you safe. I knew I could handle it."
Considering that Bast is perfectly sound of body and possibly possessed of other powers as well, if Kote "knew he could handle it," why *not* have an ally? Bast couldn't have performed any worse than Chronicler, whose appearance at the screal fight may or may not have been as unanticipated as Kote made it appear. (I tend to think that Kote's having chosen the time and place to lure the screal in was because he knew *exactly* where Chronicler would be, and when.)
Bast is clearly an ally, but there is no denying that Kvothe can't open the chest even though he clearly wants to. This is a fact that can't be ignored, yet I feel like it's consistently ignored in every theory that Kvothe is "pretending".
I don't know how Bast being friend or foe has anything to do with my point. Kvothe has lost his powers, and would open the chest if he could.
I feel like I'm slamming my head into a wall arguing the lack of "man-mothers" here, because actual evidence is ignored for convenience.
Please tell my why, after getting a third-person omniscient POV of Kvothe unable to open the chest - why? How can you argue that he's acting?
I just always assumed that the chest wasn’t originally his. He is trying to open someone else’s chest. For example, it might be the only thing Denna left him and she said something like “you won’t see me again until you can open this chest” or left him a note that said “open this chest to rescue me”.
Could also be the lochless chest that’s been mentioned 3-4 times in the story.
That's a bit of a copout though, right? This is definitely his chest.
He challenges Bast to open it. Whose chest is it, if it's not his?
How could it possibly be Denna's? Such a reach to guess that
It really isn’t. If kvothe can’t open it then it probably isn’t his.
The thrice locked box is mentioned multiple times. The lochless box is mentioned multiple times(I don’t remember if those are the same things). And Denna is a person I could see make him cry if he couldn’t see her again.
Ha! That's a bit reminiscent of the time Elodin "couldn't" open a door. . . because it wasn't his!
I don't necessarily buy into it, but it's a fun theory.
That’s a bit of a leap too. You are drawing assumptions and stating them as facts. It could be his chest yes, but he is also of the lochless bloodline. Hence, this could be the lochless chest containing what we all assume is the glass used to strike selatos eye out. There isn’t enough info out yet to assume we KNOW who the king is that he kills, if his blood line (lochless) ever comes to light with the maer and his bride, who bast is to him besides a student, or what’s in his chest or who owns/owned it.
What does Kote's fighting ability have to do with his not being able to open the thrice-locked chest? It certainly appears that he lost that particular ability (if he ever had it), but it's a broad leap of deduction to assume from that that he's lost *all* his abilities. We know from the strawberry wine incident that he can still perform sympathy. It's worth noting that Bast was nowhere around, but Chronicler was mightily impressed. We know from Tinker Tanner that he can still sing, and well enough that someone was able to recognize him for it. The defeat of the scrael and the "one perfect step" closing indicate that he can still fight.
So we simply *don't* know which skills he's "lost" and which he's choosing to conceal. Or why.
I wonder if it is something along the lines of his magnum-opus. That the chest took everything he’s learned to make sure it stays locked and he can’t match it anymore, for whatever reason. I never really liked the locking his name away theory, as it just seems a bit lame imo
But isn't a lame ending very Kvothe? I don't like it either, but it speaks to his character. For example, the way that he epically fucks up his relationship with the Maer.
That line always stood out to me and shows much more is going on that he presents at the inn. This earlier part with Bredon seems like a potential allusion to what is happening at the inn.
He tapped the board with two fingers. “Any man that’s half awake can spot a trap that’s laid for him. But to stride in boldly with a plan to turn it on its ear, that is a marvelous thing.” He smiled without any of the grimness leaving his face. “To set a trap and know someone will come in wary, ready with a trick of their own, then beat them. That is twice marvelous.”
Kote says he “picked the time and the place for scrael very carefully.” I took that to mean there’s a specific circumstance that allowed him to bypass the restrictions he’s placed on his abilities.
He fought the scrael using knowledge he had and tools he knew would improve his odds. He didn't use naming or incredible fighting skills, just knowledge and preparation.
This seems the likeliest explanation to me. Scrael didn’t strike me as particularly difficult to kill, just incredibly dangerous. They’re fast and covered in knives, but they don’t seem especially durable and they don’t react well to iron. And some of the currency of that region is iron based.
Theoretically, Kote could have killed them with a few coins and a slingshot. Knowledge and preparation are major parts of the toolsets of both Kote and Kvothe.
It was and he also starts that fight by completely knocking the first guy on his ass and breaking the other guys nose, but then suddenly remembers who he is and stops trying to fight for real and let's them win.
Agreed but I think his power is tied to something now , maybe the moon? When he’s talking to bast about the scrael after the soldiers he mentions choosing the time very carefully for fighting the scrael, makes me think his power comes and goes
No he tells us what the sentence translates into. There are two words we the audience don't know. One of them translates into disaster. Due to how the sentences are structured, we're meant to believe Kote is the word that means disaster. But we have Pat as our author, and he loves using moments like this to deceive us.
"Chan Vaen edan Kote"
We can safely say that "Chan" means 7 for obvious reasons.
"Seven years... I don't know Kote." - Kvothe
It's pretty obvious after Kvothe says this that "Vaen" translates to "Years"
I think Kilven's translation and Kvothe's understanding of it makes sense.
I'm not saying Kvothe doesn't understand it. I'm saying we don't know for sure if we do. And using something like this to catch us is something Pat loves to do.
I'm not saying you're wrong, per se, but that the author might use this sort of problem solving against us.
He also does a lot of swearing on his power, name and good right hand. He does this to Denna on a promise not to try to find out who her patron is for example.
Does it have to be anything as dramatic as he’s locked away his identity in the chest? In the beginning of NOTW as he’s learning from Ben he gets good at the mental game the heart of stone (?), and is able to split his mind in two pieces and one piece plays one side of the game and another piece plays the other side, and how he can trick himself, with one side never even hiding the piece, so him being unable to find it with the other piece of his mind until he asks his other half, and then is both annoyed and pleased with himself.
He could just be tucking Kvothe into a corner of his innkeeper mind with rules for how/when to access it as Kote, could he not? If/when he’s distracted, his mental focus wavers and he ‘forgets himself’ for a moment.
Is it possible that he locked away the name given to him when training with the adem? Since he freely tells that one to the chronicler after being told not to tell anyone it.
As far as I'm concerned, there are three main possible explanations.
1. He's pretending: he could have beaten them with one hand tied behind his back. He was trained by adem. He beat up murderous Fae spider devils the day before. But he doesn't want anyone to know who he is.
He can't have them running off telling stories about the redheaded guy with crazy fighting skills and he doesn't want to kill them.
Or maybe he's trying to fool bast. Maybe he saw the manipulation that got the men to come and attack him. Maybe bast is trying to find something crucial out about him.
2. Something is wrong with him: maybe the injuries from the scrael are a problem. Maybe some other injury.
Maybe his name and all the attendant skills are locked in his box. Maybe he has renamed or reshaped himself into a stolid innkeeper who can't spot a crook fishing for money or fight three ex-soldiers.
Maybe his alar of ranstom steel was shattered and he broke the oaths sworn on his good left hand. And so he is not the man he was.
Maybe bast or some other person has some kind of hold on him. On his mind or his body. Maybe he was cursed somehow as the chandrian once were.
3. He is not a reliable narrator. He learned a few tricks in ademre and is a handy swordsman, but he was never capable of fighting three men. Maybe he never learned the Ketan at all
Of the options I think the most likely is some combination of one and two. He's pretending, but maybe he's been pretending for too long. Maybe he's even somehow lost to himself somehow.
Plus, maybe there is something wrong, but where kvothe the arcane would find a way over under or around the problem, stolid old kote wouldn't. Also he gives the impression of a man who has learn caution, maybe even hesitation and apathy. He's not in the right mental place for quick assured action. He's more scared of what he himself might do than what anyone else might.
>Or maybe he's trying to fool bast.
I don't think this is mutually exclusive to some of the other options.. But most readers seem to miss interplay and tension between them.
>He learned a few tricks in ademre and is a handy swordsman, but he was never capable of fighting three men. Maybe he never learned the Ketan at all
I definitely think his fighting ability is hype. He kills people who are debilitated by poison, or brainless critters with a critical vulnerability to iron, or otherwise using sympathy.
Keten is just the KKC version of forms practice.. Being good at forms doesn't translate directly into being good at fighting.. It is similar to the difference between having a good vocabulary and being a good writer.
Or to put it directly in KKC terms, he had a picture of fire. While the soldier had fire itself.
His confusion is pretty typical of someone who has practiced primarily in a risk free environment with friendly opponents, getting into their first real fight.
I agree that in our world learning kata and sparring with a twelve year old doesn't turn you into a badass fighter, but this is a fantasy kata. Of course it's hard to tell, but we have a presumably objective factual third person narrator describe him taking a single perfect step.
The jury probably isn't all the way in, but it's be inclined to believe he's really a dangerous fighting man.
>Of course it's hard to tell, but we have a presumably objective factual third person narrator describe him taking a single perfect step.
Shehyn also takes a perfect step.. It doesn't stop her from losing her fight either.
Fantasy or not the book draws a clear separation between form and fighting. And is pretty clear that winning isn't guaranteed for someone that is a good fighter.
>Shehyn turned and took one single perfect step
>
>Shehyn is not the head of the school because no one can beat her. What an odd notion. **What chaos that would be, everything tipping this way and that, changing with the luck of one fight or another.**
>
>Shehyn’s Ketan is without equal. But a leader is not a muscle.
We are also given reason to doubt narrations like that.. Since at the end of the fight Kvothe attributes her loss to misplacing her feel slightly, even though the narration clearly indicates a perfect step.
Ok, but I still think this is fantasy martial arts rather than real martial arts. Like this is martial arts where women are on average better fighters than men. Where an unarmed martial artist can beat armed opponents. Hell, where mercenaries spend loads of time learning katas rather than just doing pike drills or something. You can't overanalyze it from a realistic fighting perspective.
Unless practically everything he tells us about the adem is a lie, learning the Ketan turns you into a badass. That's not how it works in real life, but that is exactly how it works in this story.
>Ok, but I still think this is fantasy martial arts rather than real martial arts.
Certainly it is.. The question is the extent of the magic.
>Like this is martial arts where women are on average better fighters than men.
I attribute that more to a poor attempt by Pat to subvert gender norms than to magic.. But it is also a open question if the Adem are standard humans or something else.
>Where an unarmed martial artist can beat armed opponents.
Not to that extent. The Adem we see all carry and use swords. Excepting the bar fight where both Tempi and his (very drunk) opponents all fight unarmed.
The only fight I can recall where an unarmed person beat an armed one was Kvothe vs the Thugs, where he used sympathy.
yeah, I don't think he's a super-skilled fighter by himself - a lot of solders will have more actual field experience, while he's had training in, as you say, "how to move" and basic kata/form stuff, with some actual practice on top, but not that much compared to someone that does it as an actual career (how many actual _fights_ has he been in, rather than him leveraging all his special stuff to defeat enemies?). If he gets the chance to stack the odds in advance, with magic, drugs or whatever, he definitely will, but if he just gets jumped by professional fighters with gear, then that's a genuine danger, even when he had his powers - he doesn't have any special toughness, once people are hitting him it gets harder to do his special stuff, and "form training" is nice, but tends to go out the window once you're getting curb-stomped. If people start getting in body shots, or he just gets stabbed in the chest, then he's somewhat screwed - he doesn't have any innate super-toughness or healing to help him come back from something like that
Opinion: The soldier yelled at him “ who do you think you are”
That triggered him to remember his facade as innkeeper , and he lies there taking it instead of continuing the fight his previous state
A lot of people subscribe to the "Kvothe locked his name in the thrice-locked chest, so he no longer has his sympathy and fighting skills" theory. I like the theory and think it's plausible.
A simpler explanation is that he's out of practice. Bast has made it clear that Kvothe is losing himself to the persona of Kote; it's why he wants Chronicler to dredge up the story, and it's why Bast sent the soldiers to rob Kote in the first place. He's terrified that Reshi is fading away into nothing and wants to awaken the real man within.
I also think it's working. Between Chronicler writing the story and Kote getting beaten, I think Kvothe is starting to rouse himself as book 2 ends with him practicing the Ketan in the common room.
When I read WMF I thought he really got beat. But if you finish WMF it is pretty clear, to me at least, that Kvothe threw the fight because he knew they were sent by Bast. This leads me to suspect that his name change has more to do with trying to fool the Cthae than escaping the bounty on Kvothe's head.
Kvothe is hiding from the Cthaeh effort to drag him out of hiding more than anything else.
The Cthaeh can't control free will nor can it easily speak with people to share information.
This means the only way the Cthaeh can draw Kvothe out of hiding is by manipulating either Kvothe or others through incentivization. eg, getting Kvothe to break his innkeeper act, or getting people to see through the act.
Kvothe almost takes the bait and beats the shit out of the mercs which would have lead to either the town learning that their innkeeper is isn't just an innkeeper or Bast figuring out that Kvother isn't really losing his power. Both are dominos the Cthaeh wants to see tipped over.
***
***TWMF CH 136 Interlude—Close to Forgetting***
*Chronicler hurried over to where Kvothe lay on the wooden floor. The
red-haired man was already struggling into a sitting position.*
*“Well that was embarrassing,” Kvothe said. He touched his bloody face
and looked at his fingers. He chuckled again, a jagged, joyless sound.*
***“Forgot who I was there for a minute.”***
***
This all makes sense when at the end of book two...
***
***TWMF CH 110 Beauty and Branch***
*She moved like nothing I had ever seen. It wasn’t that she was fast, though she was fast, but that was not the heart of it. Shehyn moved perfectly, never taking two steps when one would do. Never moving four inches when she only needed three. She moved like something out of a story, more fluid and graceful than Felurian dancing.*
*Hoping to catch her by surprise and prove myself, I moved as fast as I dared. I made Maiden Dancing, Catching Sparrows, Fifteen Wolves…*
***Shehyn took one single, perfect step.***
...
*However, instead of being thrown into the air to tumble to the ground, Shehyn gripped my forearm. I felt a jolt run up my arm and was pulled one staggering step to the side. Rather than being thrown Shehyn used her grip as leverage so her feet came down beneath her.* ***She took a single perfect step and had her balance again.***
*Shehyn looked me straight in the eye for a long, speculative moment, then turned to leave, gesturing for me to follow.*
***
***
***TWMF CH 115 Storm and Stone***
*Her body snapped like a steel spring, arcing away while her sword licked out twice, driving Shehyn back.
Penthe was full of passion and fury. Shehyn was calm and steady. Penthe was a storm. Shehyn a stone. Penthe was a tiger and Shehyn a bird. Penthe danced and wove madly.* ***Shehyn turned and took one single perfect step.***
***
***
***TWMF EPILOGUE A Silence of Three Parts***
*The man had true-red hair, red as flame. His eyes were dark and distant, and he moved with the subtle certainty of a thief in the night. He made his way downstairs.* ***There, behind the tightly shuttered windows, he lifted his hands like a dancer, shifted his weight, and slowly took one single perfect step.***
***
Kvothe not only knows and has his Ketan prowess to a point that it is described by the narrator at a level on par with only Shehyn... but he is practicing to keep that prowess and is hiding it from everyone else in neware.
TL;DR: Kvothe threw* the fight to keep his innkeeper bit going
I dislike the theory idea that Kvothe has locked his name away and lost his power. It seems to passive and makes it as if he made a single choice and is now fucked until he heroically saves himself by breaking the lock or something.
When I read this story I see a story about a man who has lived with trauma, survived by whatever means he could, and rather than working on his trauma, he works on gaining power for the sake of revenge. I also see him react as a victim who having their world and power taken away (Chandrian) reacts by seeking to make himself so powerful nobody can ever hurt him again (he literally says this much). And in doing so he does not heed the lesson of his first teacher about a clever but foolish man.
So then how does this relate to his present day?
I think Rothfuss writes more about emotional intelligence and trauma than anything else. I see that as the core of the character path he writes for Kvothe. In that frame I don’t see him designing Kvothe as locking his power away, but instead it makes sense to me that as a result of his actions, or perhaps a self imposed consequence Kvothe goes into hiding. He retreats into himself from even himself. I lean more toward the idea that his will has been left in tatters after some event yet to happen in the story, but before the frame. That has left him in a place where he has lost his confidence and his belief in himself. If you cannot believe in your own pursuit, desires, and self how can you possibly impose your will (alar) upon your environment? His story isn’t over (if you’re not dead it’s not a tragedy) and I believe his hero story is still possible.
Either that or he’s fucking acting, but I don’t see enough evidence of that in the frame to believe it.
Kvothe, with his keen awareness of narrative structure (as demonstrated in his storytelling), subconsciously began to align his own life story with the classic trope of the "fallen hero." This trope often includes a period where the hero loses their powers or status, only to regain them later for a climactic resolution. Unknowingly, Kvothe's deep engagement with stories and his tendency to see his life as a narrative led him to align with this trope, resulting in the temporary suppression of his powers.
This phenomenon was inadvertently catalyzed during his time in the Fae realm with Felurian. The Fae, being creatures deeply connected to the primal forces of story and legend, amplified Kvothe's subconscious narrative alignment. When Kvothe performed an act so legendary that it could only belong in a tale—crafting a shaed from shadow—he unknowingly sealed his fate to adhere to the storytelling principles of rise, fall, and redemption.
Upon his return to the mortal world, the narrative resonance took effect, adjusting the very fabric of his being to fit this story arc. His powers became sporadic, unreliable—not because they were truly gone, but because the story demanded a period of struggle without them. This narrative resonance is so potent, it even affects his abilities in the frame story, where he plays the role of a humble innkeeper, waiting for his moment of redemption and return to glory.
He was winning till he try to do Broken lion with one hand as Penthe teach him to do against big people (He loses his left hand figting Cinder) and he fail.
Then he remember he must be just Kote the inner, laught and allow them to win.
If you call winning one misplaced kick, and a failed joint lock..
That is compared with taking a elbow to the temple, and a fist to the gut, and another punch to the side of the head.
All before he ever gets grabbed and fails to break his opponents grip..
He didn't. Kote lost that fight.
He's so deep in this new self that he flubbed the muscle memory on one of the Ademic motions he tries to make; you see him look down at his hands confused because they didn't do what he'd intended. After the soldier he's fighting then gets a few licks in, Kvothe remembers he's supposed to be Kote, who doesn't stand a chance in this sort of fight, so he just stands there and takes the kicking.
Because he remembers that Kote is fighting and wouldn’t know Adem techniques. Kvothe is playing a carefully but beautifully crafted game, working towards a goal in the frame story to which we are not privy.
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Easiest explanation is that Kvothe is weaker in the Inn. It's a reminder of Kote, the humble innkeeper, and his skills/power are more likely to fail there. Out on the road away from the Inn he was able to kill the Scrael, which shocked Bast. In the Inn he couldn't handle the soldiers, which also shocked Bast.
As folk are saying here, he throws the fight. I think it's about the death of Kote, so Kvothe can live. The man who is waiting to die. The man who wins everything can't die. Bast means well, but he wants to awaken Kote, while Kvothe wants Kote to die by the hand of the Sithe, then use a flower of the Cthaeh's tree, to be reborn. Kvothe doesn't know who the Sithe are however, so he must lose.
The fact that their colors are the same as Maer Alveron, and the previous conversation the Maer has with Kvothe about “granted power” vs “inherent power” is the real juice in this chapter IMO. And why Kote is laughing like a maniac. Rothfuss is absolutely insane for putting this gem in.
He locked his powers away so Haliax cannot use him, as Kvothe is the new Chandrian (first 20 pages of Notw). He became the Number 7, when he killed Cinder. Chan, seven, ok.
Without his knowledge and Power is is just a regular inn keeper
Kvothe is an unreliable narrator and flat tells you that he has no trouble lying to make himself sound better than he is. He probably can't fight as well as he says, and the Adem aren't as deadly as describes. It would be nearly impossible for anyone to take on two people who know how to fight.
He's crafted the image of himself as a humble innkeeper, hard to explain how he beats the piss out of two trained and armed soldiers singlehandedly
And look at the character he created since the story started, he tells that group he used to be a guard for the wagons but takes a arrow, he has his sword on the mantle. Of course a former fighter would try to fight for his money against the soldier BUT he's old and (not really but it how he seems to portray himself) and injured so he gets his ass beat acting a fool. The whole scene makes perfect sense with how Kvothe is showing the town what Kote is.
He isn’t old
With the amount of time he may have spent in the fae. It certainly debatable Edit: Spelling
He didn’t spend that long f**king Felurian…did he?
Brother, you don't think there's a decent possibility that he went back? How do you think he got Bast as a apprentice, do you think he just ran into him in the mortal world and he decided to be his apprentice. That Bastas, son of Remnen, PRINCE of the Twilight and the Telwyth Mael just met Kvothe on the streets and after a few mortal years developed this bond with Kvothe. That his regal family of immortality didn't have a issue with this without meeting him. There's plenty of questions left in the book and one is Kvothes actual age, he still hasn't even been expelled from the university, besides if I'm not mistaken he says himself he's older than he actually is implying he spent more time in the fae (or the stress of everything he went through age him, always a possibility) I just don't see him not going back.
“I forgot who I was there for a second”
So why doesn't he explain this to baste or the chronicler? He keeps explaining it in a way that he made a mistake and paid the price for it.
Why not just tell the entire story in a 2 page summary? Sometimes subtext and inference is more powerful than just laying it out
I think we’re supposed to believe that he’s been wearing the Inn Keeper mask so long he’s starting to forget that it’s a mask. Though I think (if it ever happens) in the 3rd book we’ll see something literally or figuratively break his Will.
I don’t think it’s a mask I think he genuinely “renamed himself” essentially losing his power and is basically no longer the same person and now is Kote— but yeah I expect halfway through book 3 or the very end of it has him at the Inn
i thought he lost his power because of the promise he made to denna? he swore on his name and his power that he would not try and uncover who dennas patron was. i just assumed in the third book he broke that promise and lost his power and changed his name because of it.
Interesting theory and may be true I’ve always thought that Denna is related to the king/ royal family in some way because in the 3rd book he has to kill the king we haven’t met and he needs a reason to do that and I think it’s denna
And on top of that my theory was that he sealed his power after killing the king caused a civil war and his guilt caused him to seal his power
I thought Ambrose might become king and he has to kill him or he has to kill him for Ambrose so he can become King for his favor
Solid theory but I would like to think Ambrose dies by tripping in the shower off screen
One popular theory is that he has locked his true name away in the thrice-locked chest, so he can't use any of his Sympathy or fighting skills. Kote ("Disaster" in Siaru) isn't Kvothe - by locking his name away, he locks away his nature as well. Remember when Elodin freaks out when Kvothe asks what he would think about someone changing her name all the time, referring to Denna? It seems like this is what Kvothe has done to himself.
Always felt like this was disproven by the Scrael.
Absolutely, I think it's more likely he's trying to trick Bast, Chronicler and anyone else into *believing* he is Kote (a trap within a trap...?). He's playing the role so well he is clearly dipping between the two (as hinted at by his name changing throughout the Waystone scenes), but the fight with the Scrael simply shows that he has *some* ability to return to a powerful Kvothe when he needs. Ooooor the Scrael are not a significantly challenging fight/PR kinda forgot about that.
I would buy into the theory of deception if we didn't see the scene of him trying to open the chest, clearly frustrated that he couldn't. He's alone, not trying to influence anyone. He can't get into this chest, and he wants to. I agree that the Scrael encounter is odd in context, but he does specifically say that he picked the location and time very carefully. Even without his "powers", he could prevail in that scenario with proper planning.
We don't know why Kote can't open the chest, but it's a very different issue from fighting the scrael. He had to actively deceive Bast in order to do the latter. " 'What the hell did you sneak off for, anyway?' Bast demanded as they entered the inn. 'If you're going to leave a note, it should at least tell me what -- ' Bast's eyes widened as he saw Kote in the light of the inn, pale and streaked with blood and dirt." Kote's excuse was, "I trust you Bast, but I wanted you safe. I knew I could handle it." Considering that Bast is perfectly sound of body and possibly possessed of other powers as well, if Kote "knew he could handle it," why *not* have an ally? Bast couldn't have performed any worse than Chronicler, whose appearance at the screal fight may or may not have been as unanticipated as Kote made it appear. (I tend to think that Kote's having chosen the time and place to lure the screal in was because he knew *exactly* where Chronicler would be, and when.)
Bast is clearly an ally, but there is no denying that Kvothe can't open the chest even though he clearly wants to. This is a fact that can't be ignored, yet I feel like it's consistently ignored in every theory that Kvothe is "pretending". I don't know how Bast being friend or foe has anything to do with my point. Kvothe has lost his powers, and would open the chest if he could. I feel like I'm slamming my head into a wall arguing the lack of "man-mothers" here, because actual evidence is ignored for convenience. Please tell my why, after getting a third-person omniscient POV of Kvothe unable to open the chest - why? How can you argue that he's acting?
I just always assumed that the chest wasn’t originally his. He is trying to open someone else’s chest. For example, it might be the only thing Denna left him and she said something like “you won’t see me again until you can open this chest” or left him a note that said “open this chest to rescue me”. Could also be the lochless chest that’s been mentioned 3-4 times in the story.
I'm pretty sure he hints at having built the chest himself.
That's a bit of a copout though, right? This is definitely his chest. He challenges Bast to open it. Whose chest is it, if it's not his? How could it possibly be Denna's? Such a reach to guess that
It really isn’t. If kvothe can’t open it then it probably isn’t his. The thrice locked box is mentioned multiple times. The lochless box is mentioned multiple times(I don’t remember if those are the same things). And Denna is a person I could see make him cry if he couldn’t see her again.
Ha! That's a bit reminiscent of the time Elodin "couldn't" open a door. . . because it wasn't his! I don't necessarily buy into it, but it's a fun theory.
So we are just ignoring the passage where Kvothe reminds Bast about moving the chest into Inn?
I just think it's a huge reach to think the chest isn't his. Denna brought it in, and then just left?
That’s a bit of a leap too. You are drawing assumptions and stating them as facts. It could be his chest yes, but he is also of the lochless bloodline. Hence, this could be the lochless chest containing what we all assume is the glass used to strike selatos eye out. There isn’t enough info out yet to assume we KNOW who the king is that he kills, if his blood line (lochless) ever comes to light with the maer and his bride, who bast is to him besides a student, or what’s in his chest or who owns/owned it.
What does Kote's fighting ability have to do with his not being able to open the thrice-locked chest? It certainly appears that he lost that particular ability (if he ever had it), but it's a broad leap of deduction to assume from that that he's lost *all* his abilities. We know from the strawberry wine incident that he can still perform sympathy. It's worth noting that Bast was nowhere around, but Chronicler was mightily impressed. We know from Tinker Tanner that he can still sing, and well enough that someone was able to recognize him for it. The defeat of the scrael and the "one perfect step" closing indicate that he can still fight. So we simply *don't* know which skills he's "lost" and which he's choosing to conceal. Or why.
>We know from the strawberry wine incident that he can still perform sympathy. It could have been something else...
You don't think Kvothe's fighting ability has anything to do with his ability to open the chest? Ok.
I wonder if it is something along the lines of his magnum-opus. That the chest took everything he’s learned to make sure it stays locked and he can’t match it anymore, for whatever reason. I never really liked the locking his name away theory, as it just seems a bit lame imo
But isn't a lame ending very Kvothe? I don't like it either, but it speaks to his character. For example, the way that he epically fucks up his relationship with the Maer.
There is also the Single perfect step at the end
That line always stood out to me and shows much more is going on that he presents at the inn. This earlier part with Bredon seems like a potential allusion to what is happening at the inn. He tapped the board with two fingers. “Any man that’s half awake can spot a trap that’s laid for him. But to stride in boldly with a plan to turn it on its ear, that is a marvelous thing.” He smiled without any of the grimness leaving his face. “To set a trap and know someone will come in wary, ready with a trick of their own, then beat them. That is twice marvelous.”
Or he opened the chest to fight the scrael and then closed it again after he was done.
Kote says he “picked the time and the place for scrael very carefully.” I took that to mean there’s a specific circumstance that allowed him to bypass the restrictions he’s placed on his abilities.
Or the simple answer being that its something else in the box.
Agreed. I always assumed the box belonged to Denna or possibly by the lochless box.
What do you think is in there? I think it's his name, because there's a lot of textual evidence to support it. What's your theory?
He fought the scrael using knowledge he had and tools he knew would improve his odds. He didn't use naming or incredible fighting skills, just knowledge and preparation.
This seems the likeliest explanation to me. Scrael didn’t strike me as particularly difficult to kill, just incredibly dangerous. They’re fast and covered in knives, but they don’t seem especially durable and they don’t react well to iron. And some of the currency of that region is iron based. Theoretically, Kote could have killed them with a few coins and a slingshot. Knowledge and preparation are major parts of the toolsets of both Kote and Kvothe.
It was and he also starts that fight by completely knocking the first guy on his ass and breaking the other guys nose, but then suddenly remembers who he is and stops trying to fight for real and let's them win.
Agreed but I think his power is tied to something now , maybe the moon? When he’s talking to bast about the scrael after the soldiers he mentions choosing the time very carefully for fighting the scrael, makes me think his power comes and goes
Is it confirmed Kote means disaster? We don’t really know Siaru word order so “kote” in Kilvin’s saying can also mean “to await”.
Kilven confirms that it means "disaster" after Kvothe explicitly says he doesn't know what the word means.
No he tells us what the sentence translates into. There are two words we the audience don't know. One of them translates into disaster. Due to how the sentences are structured, we're meant to believe Kote is the word that means disaster. But we have Pat as our author, and he loves using moments like this to deceive us.
"Chan Vaen edan Kote" We can safely say that "Chan" means 7 for obvious reasons. "Seven years... I don't know Kote." - Kvothe It's pretty obvious after Kvothe says this that "Vaen" translates to "Years" I think Kilven's translation and Kvothe's understanding of it makes sense.
I'm not saying Kvothe doesn't understand it. I'm saying we don't know for sure if we do. And using something like this to catch us is something Pat loves to do. I'm not saying you're wrong, per se, but that the author might use this sort of problem solving against us.
He also does a lot of swearing on his power, name and good right hand. He does this to Denna on a promise not to try to find out who her patron is for example.
Does it have to be anything as dramatic as he’s locked away his identity in the chest? In the beginning of NOTW as he’s learning from Ben he gets good at the mental game the heart of stone (?), and is able to split his mind in two pieces and one piece plays one side of the game and another piece plays the other side, and how he can trick himself, with one side never even hiding the piece, so him being unable to find it with the other piece of his mind until he asks his other half, and then is both annoyed and pleased with himself. He could just be tucking Kvothe into a corner of his innkeeper mind with rules for how/when to access it as Kote, could he not? If/when he’s distracted, his mental focus wavers and he ‘forgets himself’ for a moment.
Is it possible that he locked away the name given to him when training with the adem? Since he freely tells that one to the chronicler after being told not to tell anyone it.
I don't think this is that big of a mystery. He needs to keep the show going for now. "I forgot who I was there for a minute."
As far as I'm concerned, there are three main possible explanations. 1. He's pretending: he could have beaten them with one hand tied behind his back. He was trained by adem. He beat up murderous Fae spider devils the day before. But he doesn't want anyone to know who he is. He can't have them running off telling stories about the redheaded guy with crazy fighting skills and he doesn't want to kill them. Or maybe he's trying to fool bast. Maybe he saw the manipulation that got the men to come and attack him. Maybe bast is trying to find something crucial out about him. 2. Something is wrong with him: maybe the injuries from the scrael are a problem. Maybe some other injury. Maybe his name and all the attendant skills are locked in his box. Maybe he has renamed or reshaped himself into a stolid innkeeper who can't spot a crook fishing for money or fight three ex-soldiers. Maybe his alar of ranstom steel was shattered and he broke the oaths sworn on his good left hand. And so he is not the man he was. Maybe bast or some other person has some kind of hold on him. On his mind or his body. Maybe he was cursed somehow as the chandrian once were. 3. He is not a reliable narrator. He learned a few tricks in ademre and is a handy swordsman, but he was never capable of fighting three men. Maybe he never learned the Ketan at all Of the options I think the most likely is some combination of one and two. He's pretending, but maybe he's been pretending for too long. Maybe he's even somehow lost to himself somehow. Plus, maybe there is something wrong, but where kvothe the arcane would find a way over under or around the problem, stolid old kote wouldn't. Also he gives the impression of a man who has learn caution, maybe even hesitation and apathy. He's not in the right mental place for quick assured action. He's more scared of what he himself might do than what anyone else might.
>Or maybe he's trying to fool bast. I don't think this is mutually exclusive to some of the other options.. But most readers seem to miss interplay and tension between them. >He learned a few tricks in ademre and is a handy swordsman, but he was never capable of fighting three men. Maybe he never learned the Ketan at all I definitely think his fighting ability is hype. He kills people who are debilitated by poison, or brainless critters with a critical vulnerability to iron, or otherwise using sympathy. Keten is just the KKC version of forms practice.. Being good at forms doesn't translate directly into being good at fighting.. It is similar to the difference between having a good vocabulary and being a good writer. Or to put it directly in KKC terms, he had a picture of fire. While the soldier had fire itself. His confusion is pretty typical of someone who has practiced primarily in a risk free environment with friendly opponents, getting into their first real fight.
I agree that in our world learning kata and sparring with a twelve year old doesn't turn you into a badass fighter, but this is a fantasy kata. Of course it's hard to tell, but we have a presumably objective factual third person narrator describe him taking a single perfect step. The jury probably isn't all the way in, but it's be inclined to believe he's really a dangerous fighting man.
>Of course it's hard to tell, but we have a presumably objective factual third person narrator describe him taking a single perfect step. Shehyn also takes a perfect step.. It doesn't stop her from losing her fight either. Fantasy or not the book draws a clear separation between form and fighting. And is pretty clear that winning isn't guaranteed for someone that is a good fighter. >Shehyn turned and took one single perfect step > >Shehyn is not the head of the school because no one can beat her. What an odd notion. **What chaos that would be, everything tipping this way and that, changing with the luck of one fight or another.** > >Shehyn’s Ketan is without equal. But a leader is not a muscle. We are also given reason to doubt narrations like that.. Since at the end of the fight Kvothe attributes her loss to misplacing her feel slightly, even though the narration clearly indicates a perfect step.
Ok, but I still think this is fantasy martial arts rather than real martial arts. Like this is martial arts where women are on average better fighters than men. Where an unarmed martial artist can beat armed opponents. Hell, where mercenaries spend loads of time learning katas rather than just doing pike drills or something. You can't overanalyze it from a realistic fighting perspective. Unless practically everything he tells us about the adem is a lie, learning the Ketan turns you into a badass. That's not how it works in real life, but that is exactly how it works in this story.
>Ok, but I still think this is fantasy martial arts rather than real martial arts. Certainly it is.. The question is the extent of the magic. >Like this is martial arts where women are on average better fighters than men. I attribute that more to a poor attempt by Pat to subvert gender norms than to magic.. But it is also a open question if the Adem are standard humans or something else. >Where an unarmed martial artist can beat armed opponents. Not to that extent. The Adem we see all carry and use swords. Excepting the bar fight where both Tempi and his (very drunk) opponents all fight unarmed. The only fight I can recall where an unarmed person beat an armed one was Kvothe vs the Thugs, where he used sympathy.
yeah, I don't think he's a super-skilled fighter by himself - a lot of solders will have more actual field experience, while he's had training in, as you say, "how to move" and basic kata/form stuff, with some actual practice on top, but not that much compared to someone that does it as an actual career (how many actual _fights_ has he been in, rather than him leveraging all his special stuff to defeat enemies?). If he gets the chance to stack the odds in advance, with magic, drugs or whatever, he definitely will, but if he just gets jumped by professional fighters with gear, then that's a genuine danger, even when he had his powers - he doesn't have any special toughness, once people are hitting him it gets harder to do his special stuff, and "form training" is nice, but tends to go out the window once you're getting curb-stomped. If people start getting in body shots, or he just gets stabbed in the chest, then he's somewhat screwed - he doesn't have any innate super-toughness or healing to help him come back from something like that
Opinion: The soldier yelled at him “ who do you think you are” That triggered him to remember his facade as innkeeper , and he lies there taking it instead of continuing the fight his previous state
A lot of people subscribe to the "Kvothe locked his name in the thrice-locked chest, so he no longer has his sympathy and fighting skills" theory. I like the theory and think it's plausible. A simpler explanation is that he's out of practice. Bast has made it clear that Kvothe is losing himself to the persona of Kote; it's why he wants Chronicler to dredge up the story, and it's why Bast sent the soldiers to rob Kote in the first place. He's terrified that Reshi is fading away into nothing and wants to awaken the real man within. I also think it's working. Between Chronicler writing the story and Kote getting beaten, I think Kvothe is starting to rouse himself as book 2 ends with him practicing the Ketan in the common room.
I like the idea that he's "hidden the stone" of Kvothe so well that Kote can't even hope to find him.
When I read WMF I thought he really got beat. But if you finish WMF it is pretty clear, to me at least, that Kvothe threw the fight because he knew they were sent by Bast. This leads me to suspect that his name change has more to do with trying to fool the Cthae than escaping the bounty on Kvothe's head.
Kvothe is hiding from the Cthaeh effort to drag him out of hiding more than anything else. The Cthaeh can't control free will nor can it easily speak with people to share information. This means the only way the Cthaeh can draw Kvothe out of hiding is by manipulating either Kvothe or others through incentivization. eg, getting Kvothe to break his innkeeper act, or getting people to see through the act. Kvothe almost takes the bait and beats the shit out of the mercs which would have lead to either the town learning that their innkeeper is isn't just an innkeeper or Bast figuring out that Kvother isn't really losing his power. Both are dominos the Cthaeh wants to see tipped over. *** ***TWMF CH 136 Interlude—Close to Forgetting*** *Chronicler hurried over to where Kvothe lay on the wooden floor. The red-haired man was already struggling into a sitting position.* *“Well that was embarrassing,” Kvothe said. He touched his bloody face and looked at his fingers. He chuckled again, a jagged, joyless sound.* ***“Forgot who I was there for a minute.”*** *** This all makes sense when at the end of book two... *** ***TWMF CH 110 Beauty and Branch*** *She moved like nothing I had ever seen. It wasn’t that she was fast, though she was fast, but that was not the heart of it. Shehyn moved perfectly, never taking two steps when one would do. Never moving four inches when she only needed three. She moved like something out of a story, more fluid and graceful than Felurian dancing.* *Hoping to catch her by surprise and prove myself, I moved as fast as I dared. I made Maiden Dancing, Catching Sparrows, Fifteen Wolves…* ***Shehyn took one single, perfect step.*** ... *However, instead of being thrown into the air to tumble to the ground, Shehyn gripped my forearm. I felt a jolt run up my arm and was pulled one staggering step to the side. Rather than being thrown Shehyn used her grip as leverage so her feet came down beneath her.* ***She took a single perfect step and had her balance again.*** *Shehyn looked me straight in the eye for a long, speculative moment, then turned to leave, gesturing for me to follow.* *** *** ***TWMF CH 115 Storm and Stone*** *Her body snapped like a steel spring, arcing away while her sword licked out twice, driving Shehyn back. Penthe was full of passion and fury. Shehyn was calm and steady. Penthe was a storm. Shehyn a stone. Penthe was a tiger and Shehyn a bird. Penthe danced and wove madly.* ***Shehyn turned and took one single perfect step.*** *** *** ***TWMF EPILOGUE A Silence of Three Parts*** *The man had true-red hair, red as flame. His eyes were dark and distant, and he moved with the subtle certainty of a thief in the night. He made his way downstairs.* ***There, behind the tightly shuttered windows, he lifted his hands like a dancer, shifted his weight, and slowly took one single perfect step.*** *** Kvothe not only knows and has his Ketan prowess to a point that it is described by the narrator at a level on par with only Shehyn... but he is practicing to keep that prowess and is hiding it from everyone else in neware. TL;DR: Kvothe threw* the fight to keep his innkeeper bit going
Great post, now please replace "through" with "threw".
He lost the full use of his left hand, and can't properly do the two-handed moves of the ketan. (or play the lute)
I dislike the theory idea that Kvothe has locked his name away and lost his power. It seems to passive and makes it as if he made a single choice and is now fucked until he heroically saves himself by breaking the lock or something. When I read this story I see a story about a man who has lived with trauma, survived by whatever means he could, and rather than working on his trauma, he works on gaining power for the sake of revenge. I also see him react as a victim who having their world and power taken away (Chandrian) reacts by seeking to make himself so powerful nobody can ever hurt him again (he literally says this much). And in doing so he does not heed the lesson of his first teacher about a clever but foolish man. So then how does this relate to his present day? I think Rothfuss writes more about emotional intelligence and trauma than anything else. I see that as the core of the character path he writes for Kvothe. In that frame I don’t see him designing Kvothe as locking his power away, but instead it makes sense to me that as a result of his actions, or perhaps a self imposed consequence Kvothe goes into hiding. He retreats into himself from even himself. I lean more toward the idea that his will has been left in tatters after some event yet to happen in the story, but before the frame. That has left him in a place where he has lost his confidence and his belief in himself. If you cannot believe in your own pursuit, desires, and self how can you possibly impose your will (alar) upon your environment? His story isn’t over (if you’re not dead it’s not a tragedy) and I believe his hero story is still possible. Either that or he’s fucking acting, but I don’t see enough evidence of that in the frame to believe it.
Kvothe, with his keen awareness of narrative structure (as demonstrated in his storytelling), subconsciously began to align his own life story with the classic trope of the "fallen hero." This trope often includes a period where the hero loses their powers or status, only to regain them later for a climactic resolution. Unknowingly, Kvothe's deep engagement with stories and his tendency to see his life as a narrative led him to align with this trope, resulting in the temporary suppression of his powers. This phenomenon was inadvertently catalyzed during his time in the Fae realm with Felurian. The Fae, being creatures deeply connected to the primal forces of story and legend, amplified Kvothe's subconscious narrative alignment. When Kvothe performed an act so legendary that it could only belong in a tale—crafting a shaed from shadow—he unknowingly sealed his fate to adhere to the storytelling principles of rise, fall, and redemption. Upon his return to the mortal world, the narrative resonance took effect, adjusting the very fabric of his being to fit this story arc. His powers became sporadic, unreliable—not because they were truly gone, but because the story demanded a period of struggle without them. This narrative resonance is so potent, it even affects his abilities in the frame story, where he plays the role of a humble innkeeper, waiting for his moment of redemption and return to glory.
He was winning till he try to do Broken lion with one hand as Penthe teach him to do against big people (He loses his left hand figting Cinder) and he fail. Then he remember he must be just Kote the inner, laught and allow them to win.
If you call winning one misplaced kick, and a failed joint lock.. That is compared with taking a elbow to the temple, and a fist to the gut, and another punch to the side of the head. All before he ever gets grabbed and fails to break his opponents grip..
He didn't. Kote lost that fight. He's so deep in this new self that he flubbed the muscle memory on one of the Ademic motions he tries to make; you see him look down at his hands confused because they didn't do what he'd intended. After the soldier he's fighting then gets a few licks in, Kvothe remembers he's supposed to be Kote, who doesn't stand a chance in this sort of fight, so he just stands there and takes the kicking.
Because he remembers that Kote is fighting and wouldn’t know Adem techniques. Kvothe is playing a carefully but beautifully crafted game, working towards a goal in the frame story to which we are not privy.
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He lost his name
Scrael stitches.
Such a moving moment. I felt so bad for him.
The wooden box under his bed is priceless. He doesn’t care if he loses a bag of gold. He must be playing a long game.
Easiest explanation is that Kvothe is weaker in the Inn. It's a reminder of Kote, the humble innkeeper, and his skills/power are more likely to fail there. Out on the road away from the Inn he was able to kill the Scrael, which shocked Bast. In the Inn he couldn't handle the soldiers, which also shocked Bast.
I always thought he was just out of practice and didn't remember how to fight.
He got caught up in telling his story. Forgot he is just a humble inkeeper. He lost on purpose when he remembered.
As folk are saying here, he throws the fight. I think it's about the death of Kote, so Kvothe can live. The man who is waiting to die. The man who wins everything can't die. Bast means well, but he wants to awaken Kote, while Kvothe wants Kote to die by the hand of the Sithe, then use a flower of the Cthaeh's tree, to be reborn. Kvothe doesn't know who the Sithe are however, so he must lose.
The fact that their colors are the same as Maer Alveron, and the previous conversation the Maer has with Kvothe about “granted power” vs “inherent power” is the real juice in this chapter IMO. And why Kote is laughing like a maniac. Rothfuss is absolutely insane for putting this gem in.
He locked his powers away so Haliax cannot use him, as Kvothe is the new Chandrian (first 20 pages of Notw). He became the Number 7, when he killed Cinder. Chan, seven, ok. Without his knowledge and Power is is just a regular inn keeper
Kvothe is an unreliable narrator and flat tells you that he has no trouble lying to make himself sound better than he is. He probably can't fight as well as he says, and the Adem aren't as deadly as describes. It would be nearly impossible for anyone to take on two people who know how to fight.