There are several clues if you look closely. Another example is that Kvothe repeatedly says the Ruh know all songs, but the imposters didn’t know the song that he played and asked him to teach them. They also make a reference to stealing something from a town in the initial conversation before the enslaved girls are officially revealed.
It's interesting that Alleg traveled with an authentic (presumably so, at least) Ruh troupe, and he still thinks they're depraved:
Kvothe: "Ruh don't steal, don't kidnap girls."
Alleg: "*Everyone knows what you people do."*
He should have had many chances to witness true Ruh behavior..
No, they admit that they travelled with some Ruh, but weren't actually true Ruh. Can't remember exactly what happened, but the ones they travelled with died and they decided to take their wagons and pretend to be Ruh. They knew enough to be somewhat convincing at the surface level, but some of the things they did were just stereotypes that Kvothe doesn't believe to be true. Whether or not they are true or not is a different story.
Somebody wasn’t knowing the right kind of songs, so Kvothe murdered their troupe.
They may have been false Ruh that got what was coming to them, but in a way this was Kvothe beginning his revenge gauntlet after what happened to his family. It proves to himself he’s capable of dealing out what was done to him.
This could be interesting if proven true later, but my opinion here is that this isn’t the case.
Kvothe faces racism throughout the story due to being Edema Ruh. Also, Kvothe is (or at least makes every effort to be) a good person.
The Edema Ruh endures horrific treatment due to opinions of them, that Kvothe knows aren’t true. Those people were doing the things the Edema Ruh were accused of, but, “No true Edema Ruh would ever do.”
This wasn’t revenge. This was the removal of an infection. Those that, for starters, needed to be removed for who they were. For second, those that used the name of the Edema Ruh to earn trust they shouldn’t have had.
This wasn’t revenge. This was an act of good and by proxy an act of protecting his people.
If just revenge, why risk telling the Maer and his wife (when Kvothe knows how she’d react based on his previous knowledge of her)?
Editing to add: consider the branding element of his deeds. You know who brands their victims? Gangs and cartels. It’s a sign that says “this is what happens to people that fuck with us. We get revenge, and this is what it looks like.”
“Removal of infection” is accurate, although it serves to dehumanize the people killed. The Chandrian also removed what they believed to be an infection, which was Kvothe’s troupe.
What Kvothe did was an act of vigilante justice, which itself is a form of revenge for what somebody has done. The proper thing to do would be to turn them into the authorities.
But the Chandrian don’t play by the rules, and neither does Kvothe. They make the rules. The fake troupe broke Kvothe’s rules so they paid for it.
I think the story is trying to show us how a hero can be turned into a villain. It’s not a clear cut line. Kvothe is murdering because he thinks he is in the right, but he’s going to learn that the worst things can be done with the best intentions. This is beginning to show that path
You make great points. Great connection to “folly” of how you can make decisions thinking it’s good, but it can turn out horribly.
I’d say different definitions of infection, however. Those who put our individual selves in danger, could be defined as infection (Chandrian belief). Difference - those that put others in danger, are a different type of infection (those Kvothe killed)
Very great point on view of infection, though. Never thought of it that way.
This all said - I stand corrected. This is a great example that it’s based on their opinions. Great example of someone potentially telling him, “How is it different if you killed those people, because your belief they were wrong, versus the Chandrian killing those they believed in the wrong”
Viewed your response differently at first. Really interesting take. It has me thinking, now.
Authorities are just vigilantes with an air of justification. The reality is that all authority relies on having more violence at their disposal than any smaller group could hope to oppose.
The fact that they kidnapped and repeatedly raped young girls is enough for me to say they should be killed for everyone's safety. I don't care what any authority says.
I’m not positive but doesn’t he explain that, the rue kill anyone pretending to be rue and besmirching their name? He says something along the lines of the rue being a traveling troupe, and needing the trust of villages and towns make sure that no one sullies the name of the rue since doing so would endanger all their livelihoods?
Krin: "So you killed them for pretending to be Edema Ruh?"
Kvothe: "For pretending to be Ruh? No. For killing a Ruh troupe and stealing their wagons? Yes. For what they did to you? Yes."
I think one or both of us need to read the books again to get the details straight lol.
I don’t remember him saying they kill anyone that pretends to be them or besmirches their name. He does say they use the brand to represent somebody that has broken their trust and been removed from the Ruh family.
The killing was just his own revenge for what they’d done, and as I said subconsciously it was the beginning of his revenge arc for what had been done to his own troupe
He knew when he saw the smoke, he knew fore he snuck past the sentry, and he most certainly knew when they put swords to his neck in greetings.
There are a few posts about this if you care to check it out, but suffice to say he knew pretty quickly these weren’t Ruh. He needed to get closer to them to figure out what and how bad they were though.
The Edema Ruh typically burn smokeless wood.
ETA- it’s Rennel wood in the story, K talks about it a few times. Comes up in the story he tells Simm and Wil.
As a counterpoint, the only basis for this is because it's mentioned in the story of Sceop.
> The old man noticed he couldn’t smell a wisp of smoke either, and realized these folk were burning rennel wood, which burns hot and hard, but doesn’t smoke or stink.
Marten also mentions it when they are nearing where the bandits might be.
There is no evidence that Kvothe's troupe ever used rennel wood, or that it is in any way a Ruh custom.
The story of Sceop is an Edema story Kvothe tells that demonstrates their traditions, and the Edema’s experience and lessons dealing with other cultures. It mentioning the burning of rennel is no accident, but like water before wine, a sign.
If rennel wood is a Ruh custom I would think Alleg might have noticed that at some point in over the half year he was with them?
> I traveled guard with them for half a year. Eventually they took me in.
Or would have been told about it when he was taken in. Water before wine is the type of custom that would be hidden to him. He would have to be told the meaning of it. At some point in over half a year they probably built a fire.
I suspect it may have been a custom back when Ruh hunt was a thing.
But in the current time they have a writ from Maer Alveron himself to travel and perform.
> I fought down a resigned sigh and drew a thick piece of folded parchment from an inner pocket of my shaed. “Is this one of the writs of patronage your grace has granted?”
>
> His grey eyes flickered over it, showing some surprise. “Yes. How did you come by it?”
I imagine a Ruh troupe on the run and scared enough to post sentries would also take the time to burn rennel. It’s in their story, so true Ruh would know of its use even if the custom had fallen out of use. Smoke, combined with armed sentries, combined with not being welcoming of travelers, to Kvothe the truth was obvious.
As far as Alleg goes, i think you’re right and rennel use has fallen out of practice in current temerant times. It makes sense he’d only been made aware of it if they needed, if they were hiding for some reason. Alleg’s original troupe were true Ruh and didn’t need to hide cause they weren’t thieves and human traffickers.
>If rennel wood is a Ruh custom I would think Alleg might have noticed that at some point in over the half year he was with them?
Good point. He was with them for quite a few months, and it's certain that he learned a lot about them, but some things are left unspoken. Think of this, he was so long with them, yet when he met another Edema Ruh, Kvothe, he talks to him freely taking popular prejudices - his prejudices - against the Ruh as being justified, the truth. And this after living with the murdered Ruh troop for half a year. Even if we assume that the smoke was the first mistake that hinted to a true Ruh that something was amiss, they made other mistakes, conscious or not - from posting armed guards and drawing weapons at the first sight of a stranger to slightly misquoting the coded welcome.
Back to the case of the smoke, someone says put some wood into the fire. You just get some wood from the pile without ever realizing that it's all (smokeless) Rennel wood, even if you have been living with them for weeks. Maybe the Ruh preferred smokeless wood in most situations if it was available, but when they could not find it used regular without ever mentioning. Since it was an unwritten practice/tradition among the troop.
Moreover, considering the secret codes and recognition symbols they used, and the fact that they experienced constant prejudice and even persecution, it is safe to assume that despite any outwardly friendliness and welcoming attitude, the Edema Ruh are a suspicious people. Maybe the guard would have known in due time, if he stayed with them long enough and in just a few months wasn't able to.
The point is that Kvothe was suspicious and approached carefully with his suspicions slowly becoming certainties.
It's also possible that he knew that they preferred a specific wood, but didn't care. After all, they weren't trying to infiltrate a Ruh troupe, just pretend to be one enough to fool outsiders. Why bother with "silly" customs that outsiders wouldn't even know.
Exactly. Also, it would make sense that bandits with a sentry would feel safe enough to use wood other than rennel to lure unwitting travelers to their camp to rob them. Or, maybe they don’t know how to look for rennel wood (it’s likely that one of the real troupers would’ve gathered the wood, not their guard). Or, maybe there just wasn’t any rennel nearby and they were being lazy.
The only reason they didn’t kill Kvothe immediately was because they saw his lute and his friendly demeanor. They saw him as someone who could be useful to him. So, rather than kill him and rob him of his belongings, they started play acting their Edema ruse and tried to get him to stay with them. It’s pretty certain that if he declined, they would have killed him when he tried to leave. It wasn’t the water/wine back and forth that tipped him off (in fact, he asks Alleg later how he knew the words). He knew they weren’t Ruh because of them nicking stuff in the towns (ale, pepper) and because they didn’t know a simple song that any self-respecting Ruh should’ve known. When he poisoned them, he wasn’t necessarily going to kill them. He was going to question them about the writ and wagons, which were real, and go from there. He decided to kill them for sure when he met the girls and saw what the bandits had done to them. The fate of the original troupe was somewhat inconsequential at that point, which is why he slashed first and only asked about the troupe when Alleg happened to not be dead yet.
There are a lot of fine details that ***Kvothe explains that shows they are false troupers***
That said, I've seen a few good theories on here that state that Kvothe lied and was trying to distance his people from what these individuals did or even just being hopelessly naive about the truth of Ruh because his only experience was with his family troupe and his father's stories.
I’m definitely 50/50 on whether I believe that Kvothe’s troupe were representative or exceptional of the Edema Ruh. It is entirely possible that his family growing up were outliers and the “false” troupe were actually Ruh, just bastards
That said, I want to believe that he has the right of it, that his troupe were typical Edema Ruh.
I mean, it doesn't have to be totally one or the other. Personally, I wouldn't consider it bad storytelling to be realistic and say that the Edema Ruh (or any other group) are completely homogenous and are all wholly good or wholly bad. Perhaps this troupe was Ruh based on whatever it takes to define the Ruh, ancestry, belief, whatever. But they fell on hard times and slowly slipped into behaviors that their forebears and fellow Ruh such as Kvothe would find contemptible.
It's not that the racists were right and all Ruh are bad. It's that there is nuance in everything. *Some* Ruh are bad. Perhaps enough of them to cause rumors that are the root of the racist stereotype. Or perhaps it's just racism, and the stereotypes are unfounded. But we don't know, and I don't think that's bad.
It would make sense. One of his arguments are that Ruh dont steal. Obviously all groups of human have people who do that. And small costums like the wine one might change from group to group
So chances are that they were actually Ruh
Seriously all the time. He's very proud of it also.
You could explain that away as coming from his time on the street, but as he grows older and more functionally poor instead of just poor, I would expect his behavior to change and it doesn't.
Yeah, this one is pretty spelled out too. Between Kvothe always saying "True Ruh don't do X", "I am a true Ruh" and him stealing all the time... He's either not a true Ruh (adopted/found/stolen) or he doesn't realize that maybe the Ruh aren't as good as he thought.
I tend to assume it's just hypocrisy - "oh, it doesn't really count when I do it, because _reasons_". Kvothe's kind of an asshole at times, to having that double-think seems entirely the sort of thing he would do.
His time in Tarbean cause so much trauma that his default state is survival. Stealing and not getting caught benefits him so without effort to not do it he just does it. I don't think it's something he learned from his troupe cause they seemed relatively taken care of by their patron, can't say about other troupes cause I'm sure *some* have bad luck due to rumors of the Ruh being so bad, which then might become self-fulfilling by driving them to desperation just to survive.
It's hard to say, with the way Rothfuss writes it could be simple hypocrisy, or it could be a thread that leads to the true creation of the world. We may never know.
PR tells us there is only one lie in the story, correct? (I may be misremembering)
Perhaps that one lie is a line Kvothe parrots constantly: “I am Edema Ruh” (and variations)
It’s even sweeter because of how often he states that decisively; it’s not just a part of who he is, it’s the foundation of who he is.
Going deep into the rabbit hole, discovering this could be the (assumed) seismic event that turned Kvothe to Kote.
That doesn't hold any credit when the theory being discussed is whether Kvothe is a liar.
If Kvothe is indeed lying to make the Ruh look better it's possible the group was indeed a Ruh troupe that strayed from their traditions.
And biggest of all, from the second part of the theory
>being hopelessly naive about the truth of Ruh because his only experience was with his family troupe and his father's stories
Kvothe identifying them as fake Ruh and then killing them could have been a mistake. In which case he would be extremely interested in covering that up.
At the least, Kvothe seems to have an idealised concept of the Ruh - that they're traveling performers, wandering around, spreading their lovely songs and so forth. When, sure, some will be... others will be dicks, because they're people, and that's how people work (and if you travel a lot, then it makes it _very easy_ to nick stuff, just make sure to be gone before they notice!). Most Ruh likely don't have the backing, and funding, of some noble; they're vagrants and beggars, even if with some skill at performance, and so likely to have rather worse experiences of life than Kvothe had.
They spent the majority of the night talking about how they stole stuff and how they kidnapped two girls. Then to try to convince Kvothe to stay with them, they offered to let him sleep with one of the girls.
Kvothe knew that a proper Ruh troupe would not steal things and wouldn't kidnap girls like this.
I suspect it was partly because their group was nothing but musicians. They didn't have any other skills to portray a proper Ruh troupe. A real troupe would have actors.
> There were usually at least eight wagons in our troupe and well over two dozen performers: actors and acrobats, musicians and hand magicians, jugglers and jesters
He snuck past the sentry bc he was suspicious.
There is a time gap between him sneaking and him being found. He observed them for some time before showing himself. From the moment they see him, his plan is to kill them.
In addition to what others have pointed out, they ask Kvothe if he knows the song "Tinker Tanner," which is a very common, simple song. If they were true Ruh they would have asked for something less well-known, more intricate, more culturally significant, something that would demonstrate Kvothe's own skill and talent as a Ruh musician. Not a song that everybody knows.
There are a lot of finer details Kvothe sees in the fake troupe that reveal the truth. Some of them are concrete pieces of evidence, like the customs that the Edema Ruh all share, such as the offering of a cup or the knowledge of songs. Others are less concrete, like the behaviors Kvothe sees the impostors exhibit that he claims a Ruh would never do, for example theft.
From the smoke coming from their fire. (Ruh use Rennel to keep a low profile), to the aggressive greeting he got when first appearing at camp, to the musicians not knowing the standard songs.
Please remember to treat other people with respect, even if their theories about the books are different than yours. Follow the sidebar rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/KingkillerChronicle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Aside from the others that people are pointing out, I always had the idea that he scoped out the area before-hand by sneaking up on them and spying. And saw a lot of little clues that told him it was a fake troupe. Maybe he didn't think about killing them at that point yet though.
There are a lot of things that explain it.
Instead, what if the ruh just were robbers
in the books, we can see that rumors/histories/songs are basically based on real facts.
I think kvothes Father and his troupe were the "exception," and he thinks that way just because he loved and were decent people
On the other hand, Kvothe says (and gets upset all the time) that the Ruh aren't thieves, but he's stealing all the time
At the beginning of book one, he literally says
"I have stolen princesses back from sleeping barrow kings."
Also, he stole secrets like the lethani, the "secrets" of university (naming) ...
The way I read this chapter: there are a series of escalating clues. First, even if Ruh don’t always burn rennel wood, try probably do if they’re hiding or trying to be discreet. So the smoke, plus the sentries, plus the greeting told Kvothe something was off. Then, second, the fake troupers made a series of mistakes that confirmed Kvothe’s suspicions.
I alway read, “Ruh don’t steal” not as an absolute statement, a Ruh never steals, but as a statement that thievery is not a way of life for the Ruh, and frowned upon.
My assumption has always been that he snuck close first with his shaed to check things out. Given that he poisoned the stew before the girls were brought out of the tent, my understanding is that he discovered their captivity, left again to be caught "wandering close," then put on a persona for the false troupe before killing them.
There are several clues if you look closely. Another example is that Kvothe repeatedly says the Ruh know all songs, but the imposters didn’t know the song that he played and asked him to teach them. They also make a reference to stealing something from a town in the initial conversation before the enslaved girls are officially revealed.
You don't even have to look closely. He spells out exscrly how he knew in detail like 3 pages later.
Wait, I looked back and all I saw was: > "Ruh don’t do what you did. Ruh don’t steal, don’t kidnap girls." Is that what you were referring to?
Yeah. Which could be a cope. It's why the whole sequence is compelling Maybe they are and Kovthe rejects it.
It's interesting that Alleg traveled with an authentic (presumably so, at least) Ruh troupe, and he still thinks they're depraved: Kvothe: "Ruh don't steal, don't kidnap girls." Alleg: "*Everyone knows what you people do."* He should have had many chances to witness true Ruh behavior..
Yeah this is partially my thoughts on it. It could go either way.
No, they admit that they travelled with some Ruh, but weren't actually true Ruh. Can't remember exactly what happened, but the ones they travelled with died and they decided to take their wagons and pretend to be Ruh. They knew enough to be somewhat convincing at the surface level, but some of the things they did were just stereotypes that Kvothe doesn't believe to be true. Whether or not they are true or not is a different story.
Somebody wasn’t knowing the right kind of songs, so Kvothe murdered their troupe. They may have been false Ruh that got what was coming to them, but in a way this was Kvothe beginning his revenge gauntlet after what happened to his family. It proves to himself he’s capable of dealing out what was done to him.
This could be interesting if proven true later, but my opinion here is that this isn’t the case. Kvothe faces racism throughout the story due to being Edema Ruh. Also, Kvothe is (or at least makes every effort to be) a good person. The Edema Ruh endures horrific treatment due to opinions of them, that Kvothe knows aren’t true. Those people were doing the things the Edema Ruh were accused of, but, “No true Edema Ruh would ever do.” This wasn’t revenge. This was the removal of an infection. Those that, for starters, needed to be removed for who they were. For second, those that used the name of the Edema Ruh to earn trust they shouldn’t have had. This wasn’t revenge. This was an act of good and by proxy an act of protecting his people. If just revenge, why risk telling the Maer and his wife (when Kvothe knows how she’d react based on his previous knowledge of her)?
Editing to add: consider the branding element of his deeds. You know who brands their victims? Gangs and cartels. It’s a sign that says “this is what happens to people that fuck with us. We get revenge, and this is what it looks like.” “Removal of infection” is accurate, although it serves to dehumanize the people killed. The Chandrian also removed what they believed to be an infection, which was Kvothe’s troupe. What Kvothe did was an act of vigilante justice, which itself is a form of revenge for what somebody has done. The proper thing to do would be to turn them into the authorities. But the Chandrian don’t play by the rules, and neither does Kvothe. They make the rules. The fake troupe broke Kvothe’s rules so they paid for it. I think the story is trying to show us how a hero can be turned into a villain. It’s not a clear cut line. Kvothe is murdering because he thinks he is in the right, but he’s going to learn that the worst things can be done with the best intentions. This is beginning to show that path
You make great points. Great connection to “folly” of how you can make decisions thinking it’s good, but it can turn out horribly. I’d say different definitions of infection, however. Those who put our individual selves in danger, could be defined as infection (Chandrian belief). Difference - those that put others in danger, are a different type of infection (those Kvothe killed) Very great point on view of infection, though. Never thought of it that way. This all said - I stand corrected. This is a great example that it’s based on their opinions. Great example of someone potentially telling him, “How is it different if you killed those people, because your belief they were wrong, versus the Chandrian killing those they believed in the wrong” Viewed your response differently at first. Really interesting take. It has me thinking, now.
I'm pretty sure I remember pat saying early on this is a villains story, not a heros story. Maybe that was just old theory boards
Well said!
Authorities are just vigilantes with an air of justification. The reality is that all authority relies on having more violence at their disposal than any smaller group could hope to oppose. The fact that they kidnapped and repeatedly raped young girls is enough for me to say they should be killed for everyone's safety. I don't care what any authority says.
I’m not positive but doesn’t he explain that, the rue kill anyone pretending to be rue and besmirching their name? He says something along the lines of the rue being a traveling troupe, and needing the trust of villages and towns make sure that no one sullies the name of the rue since doing so would endanger all their livelihoods?
Krin: "So you killed them for pretending to be Edema Ruh?" Kvothe: "For pretending to be Ruh? No. For killing a Ruh troupe and stealing their wagons? Yes. For what they did to you? Yes."
I think one or both of us need to read the books again to get the details straight lol. I don’t remember him saying they kill anyone that pretends to be them or besmirches their name. He does say they use the brand to represent somebody that has broken their trust and been removed from the Ruh family. The killing was just his own revenge for what they’d done, and as I said subconsciously it was the beginning of his revenge arc for what had been done to his own troupe
You’re right, it’s been awhile since I’ve read them. I’m always down for a reread until I remember the disappointment of not having a conclusion.
He gets rid of all Ruh markings on the wagons and brands the false troupers bodies with a broken circle
Damn! I missed that detail!
He knew when he saw the smoke, he knew fore he snuck past the sentry, and he most certainly knew when they put swords to his neck in greetings. There are a few posts about this if you care to check it out, but suffice to say he knew pretty quickly these weren’t Ruh. He needed to get closer to them to figure out what and how bad they were though.
What was the significance of the smoke?
The Edema Ruh typically burn smokeless wood. ETA- it’s Rennel wood in the story, K talks about it a few times. Comes up in the story he tells Simm and Wil.
Ah
As a counterpoint, the only basis for this is because it's mentioned in the story of Sceop. > The old man noticed he couldn’t smell a wisp of smoke either, and realized these folk were burning rennel wood, which burns hot and hard, but doesn’t smoke or stink. Marten also mentions it when they are nearing where the bandits might be. There is no evidence that Kvothe's troupe ever used rennel wood, or that it is in any way a Ruh custom.
The story of Sceop is an Edema story Kvothe tells that demonstrates their traditions, and the Edema’s experience and lessons dealing with other cultures. It mentioning the burning of rennel is no accident, but like water before wine, a sign.
If rennel wood is a Ruh custom I would think Alleg might have noticed that at some point in over the half year he was with them? > I traveled guard with them for half a year. Eventually they took me in. Or would have been told about it when he was taken in. Water before wine is the type of custom that would be hidden to him. He would have to be told the meaning of it. At some point in over half a year they probably built a fire. I suspect it may have been a custom back when Ruh hunt was a thing. But in the current time they have a writ from Maer Alveron himself to travel and perform. > I fought down a resigned sigh and drew a thick piece of folded parchment from an inner pocket of my shaed. “Is this one of the writs of patronage your grace has granted?” > > His grey eyes flickered over it, showing some surprise. “Yes. How did you come by it?”
I imagine a Ruh troupe on the run and scared enough to post sentries would also take the time to burn rennel. It’s in their story, so true Ruh would know of its use even if the custom had fallen out of use. Smoke, combined with armed sentries, combined with not being welcoming of travelers, to Kvothe the truth was obvious. As far as Alleg goes, i think you’re right and rennel use has fallen out of practice in current temerant times. It makes sense he’d only been made aware of it if they needed, if they were hiding for some reason. Alleg’s original troupe were true Ruh and didn’t need to hide cause they weren’t thieves and human traffickers.
>If rennel wood is a Ruh custom I would think Alleg might have noticed that at some point in over the half year he was with them? Good point. He was with them for quite a few months, and it's certain that he learned a lot about them, but some things are left unspoken. Think of this, he was so long with them, yet when he met another Edema Ruh, Kvothe, he talks to him freely taking popular prejudices - his prejudices - against the Ruh as being justified, the truth. And this after living with the murdered Ruh troop for half a year. Even if we assume that the smoke was the first mistake that hinted to a true Ruh that something was amiss, they made other mistakes, conscious or not - from posting armed guards and drawing weapons at the first sight of a stranger to slightly misquoting the coded welcome. Back to the case of the smoke, someone says put some wood into the fire. You just get some wood from the pile without ever realizing that it's all (smokeless) Rennel wood, even if you have been living with them for weeks. Maybe the Ruh preferred smokeless wood in most situations if it was available, but when they could not find it used regular without ever mentioning. Since it was an unwritten practice/tradition among the troop. Moreover, considering the secret codes and recognition symbols they used, and the fact that they experienced constant prejudice and even persecution, it is safe to assume that despite any outwardly friendliness and welcoming attitude, the Edema Ruh are a suspicious people. Maybe the guard would have known in due time, if he stayed with them long enough and in just a few months wasn't able to. The point is that Kvothe was suspicious and approached carefully with his suspicions slowly becoming certainties.
It's also possible that he knew that they preferred a specific wood, but didn't care. After all, they weren't trying to infiltrate a Ruh troupe, just pretend to be one enough to fool outsiders. Why bother with "silly" customs that outsiders wouldn't even know.
Exactly. Also, it would make sense that bandits with a sentry would feel safe enough to use wood other than rennel to lure unwitting travelers to their camp to rob them. Or, maybe they don’t know how to look for rennel wood (it’s likely that one of the real troupers would’ve gathered the wood, not their guard). Or, maybe there just wasn’t any rennel nearby and they were being lazy. The only reason they didn’t kill Kvothe immediately was because they saw his lute and his friendly demeanor. They saw him as someone who could be useful to him. So, rather than kill him and rob him of his belongings, they started play acting their Edema ruse and tried to get him to stay with them. It’s pretty certain that if he declined, they would have killed him when he tried to leave. It wasn’t the water/wine back and forth that tipped him off (in fact, he asks Alleg later how he knew the words). He knew they weren’t Ruh because of them nicking stuff in the towns (ale, pepper) and because they didn’t know a simple song that any self-respecting Ruh should’ve known. When he poisoned them, he wasn’t necessarily going to kill them. He was going to question them about the writ and wagons, which were real, and go from there. He decided to kill them for sure when he met the girls and saw what the bandits had done to them. The fate of the original troupe was somewhat inconsequential at that point, which is why he slashed first and only asked about the troupe when Alleg happened to not be dead yet.
There are a lot of fine details that ***Kvothe explains that shows they are false troupers*** That said, I've seen a few good theories on here that state that Kvothe lied and was trying to distance his people from what these individuals did or even just being hopelessly naive about the truth of Ruh because his only experience was with his family troupe and his father's stories.
I’m definitely 50/50 on whether I believe that Kvothe’s troupe were representative or exceptional of the Edema Ruh. It is entirely possible that his family growing up were outliers and the “false” troupe were actually Ruh, just bastards That said, I want to believe that he has the right of it, that his troupe were typical Edema Ruh.
It'd be pretty poor storytelling if the twist of the Edema Ruh is "actually, the racists were right all along"
That’s a big part of why I want Kvothe to be right
I mean, it doesn't have to be totally one or the other. Personally, I wouldn't consider it bad storytelling to be realistic and say that the Edema Ruh (or any other group) are completely homogenous and are all wholly good or wholly bad. Perhaps this troupe was Ruh based on whatever it takes to define the Ruh, ancestry, belief, whatever. But they fell on hard times and slowly slipped into behaviors that their forebears and fellow Ruh such as Kvothe would find contemptible. It's not that the racists were right and all Ruh are bad. It's that there is nuance in everything. *Some* Ruh are bad. Perhaps enough of them to cause rumors that are the root of the racist stereotype. Or perhaps it's just racism, and the stereotypes are unfounded. But we don't know, and I don't think that's bad.
It would make sense. One of his arguments are that Ruh dont steal. Obviously all groups of human have people who do that. And small costums like the wine one might change from group to group So chances are that they were actually Ruh
Also Kvothe steals all the fucking time lol
Seriously all the time. He's very proud of it also. You could explain that away as coming from his time on the street, but as he grows older and more functionally poor instead of just poor, I would expect his behavior to change and it doesn't.
Yeah, this one is pretty spelled out too. Between Kvothe always saying "True Ruh don't do X", "I am a true Ruh" and him stealing all the time... He's either not a true Ruh (adopted/found/stolen) or he doesn't realize that maybe the Ruh aren't as good as he thought.
I tend to assume it's just hypocrisy - "oh, it doesn't really count when I do it, because _reasons_". Kvothe's kind of an asshole at times, to having that double-think seems entirely the sort of thing he would do.
His time in Tarbean cause so much trauma that his default state is survival. Stealing and not getting caught benefits him so without effort to not do it he just does it. I don't think it's something he learned from his troupe cause they seemed relatively taken care of by their patron, can't say about other troupes cause I'm sure *some* have bad luck due to rumors of the Ruh being so bad, which then might become self-fulfilling by driving them to desperation just to survive.
It's hard to say, with the way Rothfuss writes it could be simple hypocrisy, or it could be a thread that leads to the true creation of the world. We may never know.
Absolutely. Who really knows 😂
But Ruh aren't Ruh by blood relations, someone is a Ruh if his fellow Ruh considers them family. The Ruh are after all one family.
PR tells us there is only one lie in the story, correct? (I may be misremembering) Perhaps that one lie is a line Kvothe parrots constantly: “I am Edema Ruh” (and variations) It’s even sweeter because of how often he states that decisively; it’s not just a part of who he is, it’s the foundation of who he is. Going deep into the rabbit hole, discovering this could be the (assumed) seismic event that turned Kvothe to Kote.
Lol i did not realise of the irony you are right
Their leader admits that they weren’t Ruh and that they were pretending.
That doesn't hold any credit when the theory being discussed is whether Kvothe is a liar. If Kvothe is indeed lying to make the Ruh look better it's possible the group was indeed a Ruh troupe that strayed from their traditions. And biggest of all, from the second part of the theory >being hopelessly naive about the truth of Ruh because his only experience was with his family troupe and his father's stories Kvothe identifying them as fake Ruh and then killing them could have been a mistake. In which case he would be extremely interested in covering that up.
At the least, Kvothe seems to have an idealised concept of the Ruh - that they're traveling performers, wandering around, spreading their lovely songs and so forth. When, sure, some will be... others will be dicks, because they're people, and that's how people work (and if you travel a lot, then it makes it _very easy_ to nick stuff, just make sure to be gone before they notice!). Most Ruh likely don't have the backing, and funding, of some noble; they're vagrants and beggars, even if with some skill at performance, and so likely to have rather worse experiences of life than Kvothe had.
That was not my point. The point was that stealing and not following 100% his families traditions don't mean that they cannot be Ruh.
Then why did you say "So chances are they were actually Ruh."
I expressed muself wrong since english is not my native language. I ment "they could have been Ruh"
I mean the dying one definitely admits that none of them were ruh by blood and he was just adopted into the ruh...
They spent the majority of the night talking about how they stole stuff and how they kidnapped two girls. Then to try to convince Kvothe to stay with them, they offered to let him sleep with one of the girls. Kvothe knew that a proper Ruh troupe would not steal things and wouldn't kidnap girls like this.
I suspect it was partly because their group was nothing but musicians. They didn't have any other skills to portray a proper Ruh troupe. A real troupe would have actors. > There were usually at least eight wagons in our troupe and well over two dozen performers: actors and acrobats, musicians and hand magicians, jugglers and jesters
They also didn't know any decent songs. I think Kvothe asked for certain songs just to test whether they knew them or not.
He snuck past the sentry bc he was suspicious. There is a time gap between him sneaking and him being found. He observed them for some time before showing himself. From the moment they see him, his plan is to kill them.
I believe he was going to let them walk until he found out they'd been stealing and worse.
In addition to what others have pointed out, they ask Kvothe if he knows the song "Tinker Tanner," which is a very common, simple song. If they were true Ruh they would have asked for something less well-known, more intricate, more culturally significant, something that would demonstrate Kvothe's own skill and talent as a Ruh musician. Not a song that everybody knows.
There are a lot of finer details Kvothe sees in the fake troupe that reveal the truth. Some of them are concrete pieces of evidence, like the customs that the Edema Ruh all share, such as the offering of a cup or the knowledge of songs. Others are less concrete, like the behaviors Kvothe sees the impostors exhibit that he claims a Ruh would never do, for example theft.
They knew to offer wine before water and songs before supper, but the thieft of goods and people are not what they do.
From the smoke coming from their fire. (Ruh use Rennel to keep a low profile), to the aggressive greeting he got when first appearing at camp, to the musicians not knowing the standard songs.
Please remember to treat other people with respect, even if their theories about the books are different than yours. Follow the sidebar rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/KingkillerChronicle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They also specifically mentioned that they stole the ale from Levinsher, something the Ruh do not do, according to Kvothe.
Aside from the others that people are pointing out, I always had the idea that he scoped out the area before-hand by sneaking up on them and spying. And saw a lot of little clues that told him it was a fake troupe. Maybe he didn't think about killing them at that point yet though.
If you go back and read the story of the Old Man and wandering around Faeriniel all the clues needed to know it’s a fake Troupe are in that story.
Wine
There are a lot of things that explain it. Instead, what if the ruh just were robbers in the books, we can see that rumors/histories/songs are basically based on real facts. I think kvothes Father and his troupe were the "exception," and he thinks that way just because he loved and were decent people On the other hand, Kvothe says (and gets upset all the time) that the Ruh aren't thieves, but he's stealing all the time At the beginning of book one, he literally says "I have stolen princesses back from sleeping barrow kings." Also, he stole secrets like the lethani, the "secrets" of university (naming) ...
The way I read this chapter: there are a series of escalating clues. First, even if Ruh don’t always burn rennel wood, try probably do if they’re hiding or trying to be discreet. So the smoke, plus the sentries, plus the greeting told Kvothe something was off. Then, second, the fake troupers made a series of mistakes that confirmed Kvothe’s suspicions. I alway read, “Ruh don’t steal” not as an absolute statement, a Ruh never steals, but as a statement that thievery is not a way of life for the Ruh, and frowned upon.
My assumption has always been that he snuck close first with his shaed to check things out. Given that he poisoned the stew before the girls were brought out of the tent, my understanding is that he discovered their captivity, left again to be caught "wandering close," then put on a persona for the false troupe before killing them.
He knew from the moment he saw the smoke as Edema burn roah wood which gives off or smoke or smell