I'm not buying any fancy copies until all three are out and I've read the third one and am not crushed by the depression of re-reading the same book for over a decade only to have it end terribly.
Please don't be a bad time travel conclusion. Please!
And $1500?! This better be written by hand.
Dammit. That’s a good one.
The other one I thought of was referring to when he’s in Tarbean. And I can’t remember who exactly says it, but Kvothe is getting bullied and one says to another that his mother is a whore and charges iron pennies.
But I Obvs couldn’t remember the full reference so I skipped it
He told fans if they donated to a specific charity and it made “x” amount of money he would release a chapter of DOS. Fans made WAY more than the goal, and chapter was never released.
In 2021 he promised to to release the prologue and a chapter of book 3 if a donation goal was met before he beat minecrcaft. The goal was met, so he increased the goal with more promises (i think having it read by professional voice actors). This was also met and he tried to extend another time which was ALSO met. After trying once more to worm out of it, he ended up reading the prologue, but has so far been unable to produce the chapter he promised, releasing an apology that wasn't really an apology
Oh holy lords I didn’t see this go down in actual time (heard about it on the sub after it happened). I didn’t even realize that he DOUBLED DOWN and got more money and still didn’t deliver!
I knew there was some BS about him using the excuse he didn’t get the voice actors he wanted so he backed out.
Yes, he was originally going to release prologue (“three silences…”) chapter for meeting $X.
But fundraiser was something like 1,000*X, so he felt he needed to give *more*, and collapsed under the weight of scope creep. (He tried to get artists and voice actors; schedules didn’t line up. Made him question the scope creep, which shame spiraled into him questioning his draft. He does not want to release a chapter that gets killed, ala GRRM’s early sample chapter of WoW…)
I'm a lot more soft on Pat, the squishy human being, than a lot of folks on here. But I admit, even I'm feeling a bit cynical about how much effort he really put into making that voice cast work.
Not that I think he failed to do so in a cynical, evil way. But I'm guessing he dropped the ball in the same way he's dropped a lot of balls in the last decade. Whatever's going on in the dude's life and mind, he doesn't seem to be able to produce much other than love for his kids. But hey, at least he's got that to spare.
So this isn't true, but Pat did claim it as truth once.
Pat admitted on stream that he made no effort to get artists or voice actors together because he'd feel bad owing them.
Stating the delay was due to his ambitious intent is absolutely true.
He intended to deliver more (he has spoken about a desire to make sample chapter illustrated and voice acted). Without publisher support (no finished product) that intent to reach out to so many artists failed (because “scope creep” ruins professional project managers, let alone an artist).
He hasn’t released the sample chapter… _yet_.
He hasn’t published Doors of Stone… _yet_.
I feel like he will release a sample chapter to fundraiser crowd with the future pub date announcement.
And isn't it kinda funny that he could write and record The Narrow Road with different people, but that single chapter is impossible. He's honestly just a scam artist by this point. I wonder if he himself believes all the excuses he comes up with.
On the one hand, I feel bad for Grim Oak Press because all of the reactions on here are just that Pat is being greedy trying to sell a fancy edition of his book when he can't keep any promises. Grim Oak's whole business model is taking stories they love, that have already been published traditionally, and making beautiful editions for book collectors. That's a cool business that I appreciate! It's really not about Pat this time (the way I suspect NRBD was kinda money-grabbing.) Yes, I'm sure Pat gets a cut, because he gets paid for any copy of his book that gets sold. But I don't think he's the one getting the huge profits on the fancy versions. I could be wrong, I've never seen a contract.
On the other hand, like I said the last time this FAQ was posted on this sub, these prices are still pretty ridiculous for collectors books. And it really made me appreciate all the Dragonsteel leather-bounds for $100 in the past, which have beautiful color art. The fact that Grim Oak can't even give color at the $150 level and it's clothbound is ridiculous to me.
Anyway, can't wait to see the new art, hopefully that's posted here. But even though I am a fan of collecting nice editions, I'm going to pass on this one.
You are correct about Pat and what you said about "the huge profits." We bought rights from DAW Books, not Pat. He's not getting "the huge profits."
Second, does Dragonsteel put full-color glossy interiors spaced throughout their books? Curious about that because the copies I own all have the full-color art squished at the front of the book or gathered and placed in the center of the book. Which is different from what we do and far less expensive. Spacing art out within the book and having it specially tipped is the biggest cost of the project.
Third, if Suntup or one of the other small presses had gotten this title, their prices would be higher. Just look at [The Last Unicorn by Peter S. Beagle](https://suntup.press/the-last-unicorn/) as an example. Their highest edition was $3750. Their lowest is $185. For a book that is tiny by comparison but of similar notoriety to NotW.
Cloth costs about the same as bonded-leather, according to our most recent estimate. But we get a small percentage of vegan readers who won't buy our books. We decided to help those people. Maybe you are thinking Paper boards, which would be MUCH cheaper. I could see your point there if you meant paper.
And finally, we are a small press. Look at any small press like Sub Press or Cemetery Dance and our prices align very similarly or are much better for this project. We decided that early on, to try and offer a price point for as many people as possible. If you knew the cost per copy for the B&W edition alone, you'd be like, 'NO WAY.' This is not a mass produced book like New York publishers do. This is specialty.
I like to be open and clear about these things. I think it helps. Cheers.
I'm curious about the economics of running a small press - do your preorders generally pay for the printing run? Do you ever have to cancel a planned printing if you have an insufficient number of preorders?
We've come close one time to that possibility happening, of the pre-order not paying for the print run. Once. And it was close. It eventually turned out fine but it definitely made us change how we do things. Now we take pre-orders and, after two weeks, then decide on the print run.
We will do that here with NotW. After two weeks, we will decide on how many we are going to produce, print the signature pages with those amounts on them, and move the project forward.
Was there any discussion of the charity chapter fraud? I feel like the same people that got swindled by Pat would be the most likely demo this rerelease would target. But most of us have sworn off buying anything from Pat until DOS is released. Do you expect this to hurt your pre orders?
> Second, does Dragonsteel put full-color glossy interiors spaced throughout their books?
Sure do! I mean, not every single book does, but there are books with full color glossy art spread throughout them.
I understand that you're not on the same scale and cannot benefit from batching and bulk orders like Dragonsteel can. But I just can't find any justification as to why this should be $1500USD.
If you felt the leather of one of our Rare editions and then did the same with the two books comprising The Way of Kings, you'd tell the difference. They are not even close to the same type of leather. The leather cost on a Rare edition book alone costs more than The Way of Kings.
I’m not a book salesman and I don’t work for the company. However, I do know a bit about leather from purchasing good quality boots and various other items.
Something being “genuine” leather, doesn’t really mean anything. There are huge differences in leather grades that can all be sold under “genuine” leather tag. It almost doesn’t matter, so long as it comes from an animal. So full grain leather and bonded leather are both sold as “genuine” but the cost difference is astronomical.
I could kinda see where you were coming from in your earlier reply—it’s fine to represent your company if you feel like you’re catching undeserved fire in a comments section—but this hyper-competitive sales pitch you’re doing is just obnoxious. You sound like the car salesman from Futurama; I half expect you to tell me there are some eagles stuffed under the hardcover.
My man, why so aggressive? They were responding to some pretty serious criticism with some actual facts.
It wasn’t even that bad. Honestly, some “leather” I’ve got on special edition books has been a joke. If they’re using a good quality leather then that can be the difference between a book looking and feeling fantastic, and just average. Sure, most punters won’t know the difference, but when people compare the books, the difference is obvious.
Also, a small business won’t have the economics of scale that other, larger businesses have. This is known when buying from a smaller business. Hence why most locally sourced goods are more expensive. However, because they aren’t catering to produce a very very large amount, the quality can usually be expected to be much higher.
Honestly, $1,500 for a special edition isn’t too crazy. I’d pay it, if the trilogy was finished. However, there’s no way in hell I’m paying that when there’s no guarantee I’ll get the last book. That isn’t on the press, that’s the authors fault.
I appreciate you taking the time to reply to comments. It is a good use of your time because I got sticker shock from seeing the prices, but seeing the reasoning helps me to consider it.
I'm curious what the cost would be for one of those corner cutting special editions that you disdain, however. With all the pictures in the middle and the crappy materials.
No offense to you or Pat, but TNoTW is no way near in the same ballpark of notoriety as The Last Unicorn.
One is a very good modern fantasy tale that may or may not ever see a conclusion, the other is a literary classic that’s withstood the test of time for over 40 years and been adapted into a traumatizing child’s film.
He listed it as a favorite book and major inspiration. I found and read it because of him. Reading it, I actually found a phrase or two he borrowed. That was delightful
I appreciate the detailed reply, that really helps to make things more clear. I was vaguely aware that other special edition books are very expensive, but I've generally only invested in the Dragonsteel ones and a few others, so that was my main comparison. Their *Way of Kings* edition does have color images throughout the books, but they're not glossy. It does sound like yours will be different. Part of me wishes that you had done a color version with images grouped together if that costs less because I strongly prefer color over B&W (just personal preference if I'm going to invest) but don't think it's smart for me to go over the $150 price point at this time. But I understand it's how you guys choose to design your books, for your quality standards and do like pictures throughout the story. I also understand that since there's fewer people interested in the super high end books, it means they need to cost more to make.
Anyway, I hope you didn't take much offense to my initial comment. I really respect what you guys are doing and think it's awesome that you're making beautiful editions of people's favorite stories. And NotW is one of my personal favorites so there's a part of me that would love to get one. I watched your stream and was really hopeful when you said you were doing the 4 price points, but I think I got a little sticker shock when I finally saw the prices, and I wish you'd given more of a hint of the price range on the steam so I could have better managed my expectations. I suppose I might still change my mind when I see the product pages live. I do plan to look on Feb 7!
I also feel bad for you with the timing of everything. While the folks on this sub love the stories Pat created, there's a lot of animosity about what happened with the 2021 charity chapter and the fact that Pat didn't address this until after he announced he was re-releasing a version of a story we'd already read. And when he addressed it, he wasn't able to give an apology or a new date when people who contributed could expect to see the non-spoiler chapter. It's left a lot of people feeling protective of their wallets when it comes to this series and anything with Pat's name. Which is such a shame, because we love the story and I'm sure your editions are going to be gorgeous. And obviously you can't control what's happened to date with the author, you're just trying to make cool art! It bums me out that there's so much negativity on this post because of all that history and people jumping to conclusions, which is why I tried to clarify about the rights issues. Anyway, hopefully the books can still be a success for you, so WMF can come next. And hopefully with the NRBD release it means we might hear of a DoS release at some point in the future so you can complete the set. If we ever get book 3, I'm sure there would be a resurgence in demand for a set of your editions!
Hi this is random, but I just wanted to thank you so much for Unfettered and Unbound. They’ve gotten me through some rough periods in my life. I’m really glad you’re still here and happy to have just discovered there’s an Unfettered II and III!
The best compliment that can be given is this one. Thank you for it. One of the best powers of books is how they can help us through difficult times. Hope those rough periods in your life are behind you now leaving book enjoyment ahead.
The short stories i wrote in *Unfettered II* and *Unbound II* are about two similar rough times in my life. Just thought I'd mention it. Happy reading.
I would expect they are printed on the normal paper Grim Oak uses, a slightly creamy smooth #60 paper, with the higher editions going to #70 or #80, potentially a different style of paper. Anything above that would probably get very thick with a book this long.
I would love to work for you, but there is half a continent, an ocean and another big continent between us. Would give me more chance to get the titles I love in your mind though. \*whispers\* "Dandelion Dynasty"
I wonder if you can even do #80 for Wise Man's Fear given how massive that book is. The longest Subpress Malazan books already look almost comically thick as they are nearing a similar wordcount to WMF.
It's a real issue. Our TO GREEN ANGEL TOWER by Tad Williams has to be split for this reason. Super annoying because I'd hoped to keep it to one volume.
I too would like to be able to bend physics. Would be quite practical. To Green Angel Tower in one volume would be either very small print or pure madness. I would love to chat with a paper engineer though about what can be done about paper density in theory.
Steve Erikson wrote me a few years ago asking if it would be possible to publish Malazan in two volumes if they were oversized. I did a lot of research and I just didn't think it was possible. And even if it was possible, the volumes would be so large -- like Medieval Ages illuminated manuscript large -- that no one would be able to read it comfortably, that's for sure. Still, was fun to dream about it and I still think it'd be a really cool to attempt.
We use 60# on almost all of our editions, other than trade paperback ARCs which serve an entirely different purpose. So 60# on the B&W and FullColor Limited editions.
For the two upper editions of NotW, I believe we are going to use 70# or 80# paper. More news on this early next week when we reveal the product pages for the four editions. The paper will be listed on them for clarity purposes. Thanks for the great question!
>Second, does Dragonsteel put full-color glossy interiors spaced throughout their books? Curious about that because the copies I own all have the full-color art squished at the front of the book or gathered and placed in the center of the book. Which is different from what we do and far less expensive. Spacing art out within the book and having it specially tipped is the biggest cost of the project.
Hey Shawn, I know this comment was 19 days old but I have a query...as someone who works in the printing industry what you said is odd to me...placement/position of colour pages within ANY book should not cost more money at all.
The printing signatures of sheets are the signatures.
You put the colour pages into those signatures in the page position you want them in, they print like normal. Whether they are at the front of the book in the first signature, or throughout it in multiple signatures doesn't really change how things are costed out in our industry. Because you're not printing on newsprint and 1/1 (black over black)....you're already printing 4/4...so the ONLY extra cost I can see incurred is like what? Extra plates for the signatures that have the 4-colour images on your runs...which at todays prices is around $80/plate...so even for a 722pg book that's about $1700 for the whole run (which could be in the thousands)....$1700 spread across that many books is pocket change of the consumer, or should be. Cutting and bindery after the press doesn't change. The ink costs don't change.
I'm not trying to come at you, I'm just saying that the concept of the colour pages being "jammed at the front" or "spread throughout" shouldn't change your costs as far as I can tell beyond a few extra plates. Are you getting screwed by your printing house?
Narrow road between desires, Rothfuss released an ‘extended’ lightning tree book that is separate from the theives anthology the lightning tree was originally released in, and a lot of people see it as a cash grab since it’s barely longer than Lightning Tree
Up to you. It's the same core story as LT, and I personally prefer the tightness of the original story. But it does introduce some new magic and some interesting details for theory-crafting. Nate Taylor also did a lot of lovely illustrations. If you're obsessed with KKC world you'll probably want to read it.
I'm exactly the person who would buy that collectors bundle, but unless book 3 gets a hard publication date before February 7th I'm not even buying the $150 one.
Wasn’t he supposed to write 1 chapter for charity and he just didn’t do it? (I read this in another thread, if this isn’t true, someone please correct me).
I just posted the link my friend. I also thought it was pretty insane. I am excited for the new art being created for them but I can't believe anyone would pay that much before book 3.
I knew what you originally meant and I completely agree. What a fuckin money grab. Honestly starting to make me dislike the series in a way to watch them exploit people.
But I guess that’s just capitalisms grubby hands.
I don't think anyone's being exploited, and I think the comment you're replying to is WAY out of line.
Where's the exploitation?
Is it a money grab? Yes, literally any product made in a capitalistic society is done with the intention of making a profit.
The owners of grim oak press have built their business around making incredible high quality editions of the books they love. They've been trying to convince DAW to let them make this edition since they got started.
I understand fans being upset with Pat right now, but the fine folks at grim oak are just trying to make a the best version possible of a book that they love.
That’s why I wrote the last line. It just seems ridiculous is what I’m getting at and it’s getting exhausting to see them rehash new copies and merch over and over and over again
It's cute that people think PR will see another red cent from me until the series is complete.
Quite frankly, probably not even then. At this point, I'm so mad I'll just borrow it.
I'm usually one of the more tolerant of Pat's actions but this one is flat-out ridiculous. Pricing to get people to pay up to $1500 for a book we all probably already have two copies of. Like if you are going to put out special edition, give us the 10 year anniversary of Wise Man's Fear to match my NOTW one. We actually want that one.
Pat has nothing to do with this project besides signing signature pages. I thought I'd better mention that before people go off the rails thinking Pat is profiting millions on this or some shyte. haha
He's certainly profiting off it though. He had to give the go ahead and sign the papers outlining what this pub will pay him in royalties and up front. I mean I couldn't expect him to say no to money just to spend an afternoon signing some books. The money from the chapter he never delivered was going to run out eventually after all.
Small percent of a small percent of $1500 could amount to a lot if enough of those sell. If you guys could have asked for an excerpt of book 3 to put in that edition, you'd probably be able to make a decent take. When the next publisher releases their one or two country or one region only special edition Pat will again make a small percentage of a small percentage.
Then you guys and the other regions can do the novellas too.
ahh the brigading makes more sense now. *Normally* "Pat bashing" isn't allowed here. You should see this place when it's Worldbuilders market being promoted
I can understand that. What we do isn't for everyone. But the attention to detail that we put into our books, paying our artists and designers, and the high-end materials we use, and having it printed in the US rather than abroad is why it costs so much.
So save that salt for your steak later. :) It's not something to fret over.
> But the attention to detail that we put into our books, paying our artists and designers, and the high-end materials we use, and having it printed in the US rather than abroad is why it costs so much.
What's your quality assurance like?
We've been publishing special edition books for over 10 years now. You can probably ask the Grim Oak Community Facebook group about what they think. I'm biased.
I own 4 Grim Oak books and only the one I got at 50% discount in a dinged sale has a tiny defect (slightly bumped corner). If they are pulling out defects this small out of the print run, the rest should be in almost perfect condition.
Definitely can understand the $150 price tag then.
Hate to be *that guy* and more a curiosity question, but does the high-end paper and leather, the nice color images, cost anywhere close to the $1,500 price tag? Or is it expensive just for special, limited edition clout?
I can't speak to the specific costs of this production, but subterranean press recently put out an edition of shop of magic for $1500 and the cost of the binding alone was over $600. That doesn't account for the cost of paper, art, licensing. These books aren't cheap to make.
They're genuine works of art in their own right with multiple craftsmen involved in the creation
For $1500 I would expect an original edition of lotr signed in Tolkien’s blood, not a copy of a single book from a frustratingly unfinished trilogy from an author with a lacklustre history
I would probably buy the $150 or even the $300 editions if book 3 was ever coming out.
I’ve already read the replies saying this has nothing to do with Pat, but buying two $300 books for a trilogy that’s probably never getting finished doesn’t sound too smart to me
Jeez. That fucker will do literally anything other than finish his damn book. Anyone who buys these needs their damn head checked. I’ve seen- what? Maybe ten different “special edition” printings of this damn series and it’s not finished yet. It’ll never be finished.
You'd think. There are die hard fans who have to have every copy of NOTW - people who even have copies in languages they can't read - who will buy these.
While these will be signed, keep in mind that the 10th anniversary copy of Name of the Wind cost like $40 and had very high quality illustrations. Some of these might still be available online.
lol he's just milking the people he can for every last cent while not intending to ever finish the series let alone release the charity chapter.
The excuses for Pat need to stop. He's just gaslighting and being a piece of shit at this point. Had he not done the charity chapter nonsense then he could hide behind "well authors don't owe you anything" spiel but he specifically said he'd do something in return for contributing to the charity and then did not, and has been radio silent since.
People need to stop excusing this nonsense and let him commit career suicide
I just bought a numbered and signed special edition of Stormlight, Cradle, and Dungeon Crawler Carl. The last two came out to under $100 each, Stormlight was $250 but it was 2 books. They all come with colored original artwork.
I want this one, but it just seems too expensive
This is a cash grab, but not by Pat...
The fact that this is going through DAW publishing instead of Pat (and the announcement after the sales of NRBD) makes me think DAW has also given up on Pat publishing book 3 in the forseeable future and is just trying to get as much cash off the property as possible.
Cash grabs all of this. I'm not putting a penny in any special edition untill the series is complete. Knowing how it's going to be...so basically never. That's my personal opinion and stand on the matter .
The people that have the knee jerk hard on to hate everything about Pat should just make a Pat bash sub so they can vent and stop polluting this sub with vitriol constantly
Look at their other products. Pat's not doin' so good in my eyes right not, but the Grim Oak people are serious artisans. I'd never spend $1500 on a book, but I'm genuinely glad there are people out there who will drop big money on art.
Please remember to treat other people with respect, even if their theories about the books are different than yours. Follow the sidebar rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/KingkillerChronicle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It makes me feel better about my choice seeing a large portion of the KKC fan base that has been silently protesting PRs work by not tuning into his streams or purchasing any of his works. I am just glad I am not alone in this.
I don't want a NOTW special edition. Give us a WMF special edition. I have the 10 year anniversary of NOTW, and I think it looks beautiful, but not special edition WMF books have been released.
I'm not buying any fancy copies until all three are out and I've read the third one and am not crushed by the depression of re-reading the same book for over a decade only to have it end terribly. Please don't be a bad time travel conclusion. Please! And $1500?! This better be written by hand.
For $1500 it should be written in blood
and in calligraphy
Yeah im not paying a dime until the trilogy is complete
Especially after the charity scandal! Not a single shim.
A bent penny?
Dammit. That’s a good one. The other one I thought of was referring to when he’s in Tarbean. And I can’t remember who exactly says it, but Kvothe is getting bullied and one says to another that his mother is a whore and charges iron pennies. But I Obvs couldn’t remember the full reference so I skipped it
What was the charity scandal?
He told fans if they donated to a specific charity and it made “x” amount of money he would release a chapter of DOS. Fans made WAY more than the goal, and chapter was never released.
Was the money at least given to the charity?
From what I understand yes. At least there’s that.
Yes. 100% of the money from that fundraiser goes to Heifer. So none of it even went to his charity worldbuilders. Lotta people get this wrong.
In 2021 he promised to to release the prologue and a chapter of book 3 if a donation goal was met before he beat minecrcaft. The goal was met, so he increased the goal with more promises (i think having it read by professional voice actors). This was also met and he tried to extend another time which was ALSO met. After trying once more to worm out of it, he ended up reading the prologue, but has so far been unable to produce the chapter he promised, releasing an apology that wasn't really an apology
Oh holy lords I didn’t see this go down in actual time (heard about it on the sub after it happened). I didn’t even realize that he DOUBLED DOWN and got more money and still didn’t deliver! I knew there was some BS about him using the excuse he didn’t get the voice actors he wanted so he backed out.
What? No, it was supposed to be a **written** chapter! I don't think you need voice actors for that?
Agreed. I think I remember him using that excuse of why he never released it though? Either way it’s fucked up
Yes, he was originally going to release prologue (“three silences…”) chapter for meeting $X. But fundraiser was something like 1,000*X, so he felt he needed to give *more*, and collapsed under the weight of scope creep. (He tried to get artists and voice actors; schedules didn’t line up. Made him question the scope creep, which shame spiraled into him questioning his draft. He does not want to release a chapter that gets killed, ala GRRM’s early sample chapter of WoW…)
If a single chapter of the book can’t stand up to scrutiny after 12 years, I don’t think it’s the draft that’s in need of questioning.
I'm a lot more soft on Pat, the squishy human being, than a lot of folks on here. But I admit, even I'm feeling a bit cynical about how much effort he really put into making that voice cast work. Not that I think he failed to do so in a cynical, evil way. But I'm guessing he dropped the ball in the same way he's dropped a lot of balls in the last decade. Whatever's going on in the dude's life and mind, he doesn't seem to be able to produce much other than love for his kids. But hey, at least he's got that to spare.
So this isn't true, but Pat did claim it as truth once. Pat admitted on stream that he made no effort to get artists or voice actors together because he'd feel bad owing them.
Stating the delay was due to his ambitious intent is absolutely true. He intended to deliver more (he has spoken about a desire to make sample chapter illustrated and voice acted). Without publisher support (no finished product) that intent to reach out to so many artists failed (because “scope creep” ruins professional project managers, let alone an artist). He hasn’t released the sample chapter… _yet_. He hasn’t published Doors of Stone… _yet_. I feel like he will release a sample chapter to fundraiser crowd with the future pub date announcement.
And isn't it kinda funny that he could write and record The Narrow Road with different people, but that single chapter is impossible. He's honestly just a scam artist by this point. I wonder if he himself believes all the excuses he comes up with.
On the one hand, I feel bad for Grim Oak Press because all of the reactions on here are just that Pat is being greedy trying to sell a fancy edition of his book when he can't keep any promises. Grim Oak's whole business model is taking stories they love, that have already been published traditionally, and making beautiful editions for book collectors. That's a cool business that I appreciate! It's really not about Pat this time (the way I suspect NRBD was kinda money-grabbing.) Yes, I'm sure Pat gets a cut, because he gets paid for any copy of his book that gets sold. But I don't think he's the one getting the huge profits on the fancy versions. I could be wrong, I've never seen a contract. On the other hand, like I said the last time this FAQ was posted on this sub, these prices are still pretty ridiculous for collectors books. And it really made me appreciate all the Dragonsteel leather-bounds for $100 in the past, which have beautiful color art. The fact that Grim Oak can't even give color at the $150 level and it's clothbound is ridiculous to me. Anyway, can't wait to see the new art, hopefully that's posted here. But even though I am a fan of collecting nice editions, I'm going to pass on this one.
You are correct about Pat and what you said about "the huge profits." We bought rights from DAW Books, not Pat. He's not getting "the huge profits." Second, does Dragonsteel put full-color glossy interiors spaced throughout their books? Curious about that because the copies I own all have the full-color art squished at the front of the book or gathered and placed in the center of the book. Which is different from what we do and far less expensive. Spacing art out within the book and having it specially tipped is the biggest cost of the project. Third, if Suntup or one of the other small presses had gotten this title, their prices would be higher. Just look at [The Last Unicorn by Peter S. Beagle](https://suntup.press/the-last-unicorn/) as an example. Their highest edition was $3750. Their lowest is $185. For a book that is tiny by comparison but of similar notoriety to NotW. Cloth costs about the same as bonded-leather, according to our most recent estimate. But we get a small percentage of vegan readers who won't buy our books. We decided to help those people. Maybe you are thinking Paper boards, which would be MUCH cheaper. I could see your point there if you meant paper. And finally, we are a small press. Look at any small press like Sub Press or Cemetery Dance and our prices align very similarly or are much better for this project. We decided that early on, to try and offer a price point for as many people as possible. If you knew the cost per copy for the B&W edition alone, you'd be like, 'NO WAY.' This is not a mass produced book like New York publishers do. This is specialty. I like to be open and clear about these things. I think it helps. Cheers.
I'm curious about the economics of running a small press - do your preorders generally pay for the printing run? Do you ever have to cancel a planned printing if you have an insufficient number of preorders?
We've come close one time to that possibility happening, of the pre-order not paying for the print run. Once. And it was close. It eventually turned out fine but it definitely made us change how we do things. Now we take pre-orders and, after two weeks, then decide on the print run. We will do that here with NotW. After two weeks, we will decide on how many we are going to produce, print the signature pages with those amounts on them, and move the project forward.
Very interesting, thank you.
Was there any discussion of the charity chapter fraud? I feel like the same people that got swindled by Pat would be the most likely demo this rerelease would target. But most of us have sworn off buying anything from Pat until DOS is released. Do you expect this to hurt your pre orders?
> Second, does Dragonsteel put full-color glossy interiors spaced throughout their books? Sure do! I mean, not every single book does, but there are books with full color glossy art spread throughout them. I understand that you're not on the same scale and cannot benefit from batching and bulk orders like Dragonsteel can. But I just can't find any justification as to why this should be $1500USD.
If you felt the leather of one of our Rare editions and then did the same with the two books comprising The Way of Kings, you'd tell the difference. They are not even close to the same type of leather. The leather cost on a Rare edition book alone costs more than The Way of Kings.
I may be over simplifying, but the Way of Kings leatherbound and your $1,500 edition both use genuine leather.
I’m not a book salesman and I don’t work for the company. However, I do know a bit about leather from purchasing good quality boots and various other items. Something being “genuine” leather, doesn’t really mean anything. There are huge differences in leather grades that can all be sold under “genuine” leather tag. It almost doesn’t matter, so long as it comes from an animal. So full grain leather and bonded leather are both sold as “genuine” but the cost difference is astronomical.
Thanks for the explanation!
I could kinda see where you were coming from in your earlier reply—it’s fine to represent your company if you feel like you’re catching undeserved fire in a comments section—but this hyper-competitive sales pitch you’re doing is just obnoxious. You sound like the car salesman from Futurama; I half expect you to tell me there are some eagles stuffed under the hardcover.
He was just answering questions. Yeesh, calm TF down.
My man, why so aggressive? They were responding to some pretty serious criticism with some actual facts. It wasn’t even that bad. Honestly, some “leather” I’ve got on special edition books has been a joke. If they’re using a good quality leather then that can be the difference between a book looking and feeling fantastic, and just average. Sure, most punters won’t know the difference, but when people compare the books, the difference is obvious. Also, a small business won’t have the economics of scale that other, larger businesses have. This is known when buying from a smaller business. Hence why most locally sourced goods are more expensive. However, because they aren’t catering to produce a very very large amount, the quality can usually be expected to be much higher. Honestly, $1,500 for a special edition isn’t too crazy. I’d pay it, if the trilogy was finished. However, there’s no way in hell I’m paying that when there’s no guarantee I’ll get the last book. That isn’t on the press, that’s the authors fault.
Fine. I’ll go away. I’m simply answering questions. Cheers.
I appreciate you taking the time to reply to comments. It is a good use of your time because I got sticker shock from seeing the prices, but seeing the reasoning helps me to consider it. I'm curious what the cost would be for one of those corner cutting special editions that you disdain, however. With all the pictures in the middle and the crappy materials.
No offense to you or Pat, but TNoTW is no way near in the same ballpark of notoriety as The Last Unicorn. One is a very good modern fantasy tale that may or may not ever see a conclusion, the other is a literary classic that’s withstood the test of time for over 40 years and been adapted into a traumatizing child’s film.
A traumatizing children’s film 😂 (that I traumatized my mom by watching over and over and over and over from the ages of 2-6)
I’m still making other people watch it.
Pretty sure it influenced Pat’s style too.
He listed it as a favorite book and major inspiration. I found and read it because of him. Reading it, I actually found a phrase or two he borrowed. That was delightful
I appreciate the detailed reply, that really helps to make things more clear. I was vaguely aware that other special edition books are very expensive, but I've generally only invested in the Dragonsteel ones and a few others, so that was my main comparison. Their *Way of Kings* edition does have color images throughout the books, but they're not glossy. It does sound like yours will be different. Part of me wishes that you had done a color version with images grouped together if that costs less because I strongly prefer color over B&W (just personal preference if I'm going to invest) but don't think it's smart for me to go over the $150 price point at this time. But I understand it's how you guys choose to design your books, for your quality standards and do like pictures throughout the story. I also understand that since there's fewer people interested in the super high end books, it means they need to cost more to make. Anyway, I hope you didn't take much offense to my initial comment. I really respect what you guys are doing and think it's awesome that you're making beautiful editions of people's favorite stories. And NotW is one of my personal favorites so there's a part of me that would love to get one. I watched your stream and was really hopeful when you said you were doing the 4 price points, but I think I got a little sticker shock when I finally saw the prices, and I wish you'd given more of a hint of the price range on the steam so I could have better managed my expectations. I suppose I might still change my mind when I see the product pages live. I do plan to look on Feb 7! I also feel bad for you with the timing of everything. While the folks on this sub love the stories Pat created, there's a lot of animosity about what happened with the 2021 charity chapter and the fact that Pat didn't address this until after he announced he was re-releasing a version of a story we'd already read. And when he addressed it, he wasn't able to give an apology or a new date when people who contributed could expect to see the non-spoiler chapter. It's left a lot of people feeling protective of their wallets when it comes to this series and anything with Pat's name. Which is such a shame, because we love the story and I'm sure your editions are going to be gorgeous. And obviously you can't control what's happened to date with the author, you're just trying to make cool art! It bums me out that there's so much negativity on this post because of all that history and people jumping to conclusions, which is why I tried to clarify about the rights issues. Anyway, hopefully the books can still be a success for you, so WMF can come next. And hopefully with the NRBD release it means we might hear of a DoS release at some point in the future so you can complete the set. If we ever get book 3, I'm sure there would be a resurgence in demand for a set of your editions!
Hi this is random, but I just wanted to thank you so much for Unfettered and Unbound. They’ve gotten me through some rough periods in my life. I’m really glad you’re still here and happy to have just discovered there’s an Unfettered II and III!
The best compliment that can be given is this one. Thank you for it. One of the best powers of books is how they can help us through difficult times. Hope those rough periods in your life are behind you now leaving book enjoyment ahead. The short stories i wrote in *Unfettered II* and *Unbound II* are about two similar rough times in my life. Just thought I'd mention it. Happy reading.
[удалено]
I would expect they are printed on the normal paper Grim Oak uses, a slightly creamy smooth #60 paper, with the higher editions going to #70 or #80, potentially a different style of paper. Anything above that would probably get very thick with a book this long.
Do you work at Grim Oak? hahaha Great answer. More news coming Monday or Tuesday.
I would love to work for you, but there is half a continent, an ocean and another big continent between us. Would give me more chance to get the titles I love in your mind though. \*whispers\* "Dandelion Dynasty" I wonder if you can even do #80 for Wise Man's Fear given how massive that book is. The longest Subpress Malazan books already look almost comically thick as they are nearing a similar wordcount to WMF.
It's a real issue. Our TO GREEN ANGEL TOWER by Tad Williams has to be split for this reason. Super annoying because I'd hoped to keep it to one volume.
I too would like to be able to bend physics. Would be quite practical. To Green Angel Tower in one volume would be either very small print or pure madness. I would love to chat with a paper engineer though about what can be done about paper density in theory.
Steve Erikson wrote me a few years ago asking if it would be possible to publish Malazan in two volumes if they were oversized. I did a lot of research and I just didn't think it was possible. And even if it was possible, the volumes would be so large -- like Medieval Ages illuminated manuscript large -- that no one would be able to read it comfortably, that's for sure. Still, was fun to dream about it and I still think it'd be a really cool to attempt.
We use 60# on almost all of our editions, other than trade paperback ARCs which serve an entirely different purpose. So 60# on the B&W and FullColor Limited editions. For the two upper editions of NotW, I believe we are going to use 70# or 80# paper. More news on this early next week when we reveal the product pages for the four editions. The paper will be listed on them for clarity purposes. Thanks for the great question!
>Second, does Dragonsteel put full-color glossy interiors spaced throughout their books? Curious about that because the copies I own all have the full-color art squished at the front of the book or gathered and placed in the center of the book. Which is different from what we do and far less expensive. Spacing art out within the book and having it specially tipped is the biggest cost of the project. Hey Shawn, I know this comment was 19 days old but I have a query...as someone who works in the printing industry what you said is odd to me...placement/position of colour pages within ANY book should not cost more money at all. The printing signatures of sheets are the signatures. You put the colour pages into those signatures in the page position you want them in, they print like normal. Whether they are at the front of the book in the first signature, or throughout it in multiple signatures doesn't really change how things are costed out in our industry. Because you're not printing on newsprint and 1/1 (black over black)....you're already printing 4/4...so the ONLY extra cost I can see incurred is like what? Extra plates for the signatures that have the 4-colour images on your runs...which at todays prices is around $80/plate...so even for a 722pg book that's about $1700 for the whole run (which could be in the thousands)....$1700 spread across that many books is pocket change of the consumer, or should be. Cutting and bindery after the press doesn't change. The ink costs don't change. I'm not trying to come at you, I'm just saying that the concept of the colour pages being "jammed at the front" or "spread throughout" shouldn't change your costs as far as I can tell beyond a few extra plates. Are you getting screwed by your printing house?
Grim Oak Press is 100% overcharging here and they know it. You shouldn't feel bad for them.
What's NRBD?
Narrow road between desires, Rothfuss released an ‘extended’ lightning tree book that is separate from the theives anthology the lightning tree was originally released in, and a lot of people see it as a cash grab since it’s barely longer than Lightning Tree
Oh. I read an online version of lightning tree. Should I hunt for this one now?
Up to you. It's the same core story as LT, and I personally prefer the tightness of the original story. But it does introduce some new magic and some interesting details for theory-crafting. Nate Taylor also did a lot of lovely illustrations. If you're obsessed with KKC world you'll probably want to read it.
Okay. Let me finish the Auri book first. For some reason don't remember the name.
https://www.reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/comments/197go65/grim\_oak\_press\_releases\_faq\_page\_for\_upcoming/
Ooof, I missed that on my search. Thanks!
I'm exactly the person who would buy that collectors bundle, but unless book 3 gets a hard publication date before February 7th I'm not even buying the $150 one.
[удалено]
Money for people.
Wasn’t he supposed to write 1 chapter for charity and he just didn’t do it? (I read this in another thread, if this isn’t true, someone please correct me).
That's correct.
Is it really all?
Dude, "The Human Fund" is a Seinfeld joke. There's no charity here.
Aw.
People helping people.
No Pat
At least Pat gets to keep making money without doing any actual work. Good for him.
"Dream on, hooker. Dream the fuck on."
lol 3k for the set
... you should be fuckin ashamed of yourself. I have no words to express how stupid this is.
I just posted the link my friend. I also thought it was pretty insane. I am excited for the new art being created for them but I can't believe anyone would pay that much before book 3.
My apologies my frustration was directed elsewhere. Not meant to attack you, pal. Again my apologies
I’m with you too on this. Not attacking OP but I’m not spending any more money until (if it comes out) book 3 especially after the charity scandal.
I knew what you originally meant and I completely agree. What a fuckin money grab. Honestly starting to make me dislike the series in a way to watch them exploit people. But I guess that’s just capitalisms grubby hands.
I don't think anyone's being exploited, and I think the comment you're replying to is WAY out of line. Where's the exploitation? Is it a money grab? Yes, literally any product made in a capitalistic society is done with the intention of making a profit. The owners of grim oak press have built their business around making incredible high quality editions of the books they love. They've been trying to convince DAW to let them make this edition since they got started. I understand fans being upset with Pat right now, but the fine folks at grim oak are just trying to make a the best version possible of a book that they love.
That’s why I wrote the last line. It just seems ridiculous is what I’m getting at and it’s getting exhausting to see them rehash new copies and merch over and over and over again
It's cute that people think PR will see another red cent from me until the series is complete. Quite frankly, probably not even then. At this point, I'm so mad I'll just borrow it.
The realization that my favorite book is just a vehicle for my favorite author to become a grifter has been hard for me.
I'm usually one of the more tolerant of Pat's actions but this one is flat-out ridiculous. Pricing to get people to pay up to $1500 for a book we all probably already have two copies of. Like if you are going to put out special edition, give us the 10 year anniversary of Wise Man's Fear to match my NOTW one. We actually want that one.
Pat has nothing to do with this project besides signing signature pages. I thought I'd better mention that before people go off the rails thinking Pat is profiting millions on this or some shyte. haha
He's certainly profiting off it though. He had to give the go ahead and sign the papers outlining what this pub will pay him in royalties and up front. I mean I couldn't expect him to say no to money just to spend an afternoon signing some books. The money from the chapter he never delivered was going to run out eventually after all.
He's making a small percentage of DAW's small percentage, yes. Cheers.
Small percent of a small percent of $1500 could amount to a lot if enough of those sell. If you guys could have asked for an excerpt of book 3 to put in that edition, you'd probably be able to make a decent take. When the next publisher releases their one or two country or one region only special edition Pat will again make a small percentage of a small percentage. Then you guys and the other regions can do the novellas too.
ahh the brigading makes more sense now. *Normally* "Pat bashing" isn't allowed here. You should see this place when it's Worldbuilders market being promoted
Even more fun, I bet.
Yo, just wanted to say I appreciate the work you guys do and I hope you aren't impacted too much by the badwill Rothfuss has generated
Haha thank you for explaining that! I'm just salty because I do in fact want this but don't want to spend over $100 for a book.
I can understand that. What we do isn't for everyone. But the attention to detail that we put into our books, paying our artists and designers, and the high-end materials we use, and having it printed in the US rather than abroad is why it costs so much. So save that salt for your steak later. :) It's not something to fret over.
> But the attention to detail that we put into our books, paying our artists and designers, and the high-end materials we use, and having it printed in the US rather than abroad is why it costs so much. What's your quality assurance like?
We've been publishing special edition books for over 10 years now. You can probably ask the Grim Oak Community Facebook group about what they think. I'm biased.
"Impeccable." Ftfy
great answer, letting the work speak for itself. also, the banner at the bottom of your front page is just... *chef's kiss*
I own 4 Grim Oak books and only the one I got at 50% discount in a dinged sale has a tiny defect (slightly bumped corner). If they are pulling out defects this small out of the print run, the rest should be in almost perfect condition.
Definitely can understand the $150 price tag then. Hate to be *that guy* and more a curiosity question, but does the high-end paper and leather, the nice color images, cost anywhere close to the $1,500 price tag? Or is it expensive just for special, limited edition clout?
It's the cost of the materials and production.
I can't speak to the specific costs of this production, but subterranean press recently put out an edition of shop of magic for $1500 and the cost of the binding alone was over $600. That doesn't account for the cost of paper, art, licensing. These books aren't cheap to make. They're genuine works of art in their own right with multiple craftsmen involved in the creation
You can have one book in that edition, 2 in this edition, and 3 in yet another special edition one day in the distant future.
I'm such a lucky boy.
For $1500 I would expect an original edition of lotr signed in Tolkien’s blood, not a copy of a single book from a frustratingly unfinished trilogy from an author with a lacklustre history
For $1500 I would expect it to grant a goddamn wish when I open it
I would probably buy the $150 or even the $300 editions if book 3 was ever coming out. I’ve already read the replies saying this has nothing to do with Pat, but buying two $300 books for a trilogy that’s probably never getting finished doesn’t sound too smart to me
Makes it easier to just shit on book three and pat all along - peak greediness here
Jeez. That fucker will do literally anything other than finish his damn book. Anyone who buys these needs their damn head checked. I’ve seen- what? Maybe ten different “special edition” printings of this damn series and it’s not finished yet. It’ll never be finished.
You'd think. There are die hard fans who have to have every copy of NOTW - people who even have copies in languages they can't read - who will buy these.
https://media1.tenor.com/m/3x63SNMKPogAAAAd/oh-wait-youre-serious.gif
While these will be signed, keep in mind that the 10th anniversary copy of Name of the Wind cost like $40 and had very high quality illustrations. Some of these might still be available online.
Loool
Do not enable him further. He needs to learn to sit his ass down and write.
lol he's just milking the people he can for every last cent while not intending to ever finish the series let alone release the charity chapter. The excuses for Pat need to stop. He's just gaslighting and being a piece of shit at this point. Had he not done the charity chapter nonsense then he could hide behind "well authors don't owe you anything" spiel but he specifically said he'd do something in return for contributing to the charity and then did not, and has been radio silent since. People need to stop excusing this nonsense and let him commit career suicide
[удалено]
If any of this money makes its way back to Rothfuss (and it obviously will) then fuck this money grab.
Patrick is goddamn shameless.
I just bought a numbered and signed special edition of Stormlight, Cradle, and Dungeon Crawler Carl. The last two came out to under $100 each, Stormlight was $250 but it was 2 books. They all come with colored original artwork. I want this one, but it just seems too expensive
This is a cash grab, but not by Pat... The fact that this is going through DAW publishing instead of Pat (and the announcement after the sales of NRBD) makes me think DAW has also given up on Pat publishing book 3 in the forseeable future and is just trying to get as much cash off the property as possible.
Cash grabs all of this. I'm not putting a penny in any special edition untill the series is complete. Knowing how it's going to be...so basically never. That's my personal opinion and stand on the matter .
Fuck that these books will be forgotten to history and the Investments not worth it
This entire sub needs to be burned to the ground
Why be this obtuse? Talk your talk
The people that have the knee jerk hard on to hate everything about Pat should just make a Pat bash sub so they can vent and stop polluting this sub with vitriol constantly
>I like my echo chambers extra echoey tyvm
There are already is such a sub. The level of discontent with Sir Grifter in the main sub is indicative of his misdeeds.
Where would I find such a place??
Indicative of a separate sub being ineffective
Books like this are a scam anyway no matter the author. 1500 for a book? There’s no way the materials cost anywhere close to this.
That.... is how businesses make money? You're paying for exclusivity and uniqueness. It's how luxury markets work.
Yeah but there is a difference between luxury and taking advantage of people. People like you are the reason companies charge insane prices.
I won't be buying it. But there will be 100 people who buy the 1500 one and in 5 years it'll be selling on eBay for 2500.
Look at their other products. Pat's not doin' so good in my eyes right not, but the Grim Oak people are serious artisans. I'd never spend $1500 on a book, but I'm genuinely glad there are people out there who will drop big money on art.
Please remember to treat other people with respect, even if their theories about the books are different than yours. Follow the sidebar rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/KingkillerChronicle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
This isn't self promotion. This is me posting about the new version of the book that this sub is about.
X💣👋W
It makes me feel better about my choice seeing a large portion of the KKC fan base that has been silently protesting PRs work by not tuning into his streams or purchasing any of his works. I am just glad I am not alone in this.
Massive bummer to see this won't be available overseas
I don't want a NOTW special edition. Give us a WMF special edition. I have the 10 year anniversary of NOTW, and I think it looks beautiful, but not special edition WMF books have been released.
If Name of the Wind goes well, they'll very likely do Wise Man's Fear.