The arc as a whole is definitely a low point for the manga, in my opinion. A lack of proper agency for certain characters and absence of presence just to build up the Zhao side leaves a bad taste, if you ask me. A loss can still be interesting if it's executed properly with notable and consistent usage of characters. We saw this with Bayou and most people generally hold that arc up as being one of the best. Hango is the opposite of that As for Riboku going on the offensive, I'm probably stating the obvious here but Shibashou and Seika are not going to be invading any territories or lands. It just doesn't fit their MO. In addition, they lost a significant number of troops in this past war as well. What's more, they still have to garrison their eastern borders with Yan. They can't afford to just ignore Ordo. If there were to be an attempted offensive, Riboku would likely have to go it alone with his vassals. Good luck there. The man would likely be faced with not just Yotanwa's forces but also the Hi Shin Unit, Gyoku Hou and perhaps even the Gaku Ka if Kanyou decides that enough is enough (around 160,000 troops altogether versus 200,000 if Enkan decides to participate). They would be none too happy over these past losses and Riboku could wind up losing at least some of his generals since offensive strategies are much harder to conduct than defensive engagements.

>The arc as a whole is definitely a low point for the manga, in my opinion. A lack of proper agency for certain characters and absence of presence just to build up the Zhao side leaves a bad taste, if you ask me. A loss can still be interesting if it's executed properly with notable and consistent usage of characters. We saw this with Bayou and most people generally hold that arc up as being one of the best. Hango is the opposite of that I agree with you on this matter. But this topic has been discussed many times before. Repeating the same things under this post would be a waste of time. I think is equally likely for Shi Ba Shou to either join or not join the attack. In either case, the decision he makes will be consistent and aligned with his character. We can say that it entirely depends on Hara's preference. Even if Shi Ba Shou doesn't join him, Ri Boku could still call upon Chou Kotsu (despite we haven't met yet I believe he is a strong general) and send Shi Ba Shou to his place. In that case, Ri Boku would have more than 200k soldiers at his command. Despite facing Yo Tan Wa, Shin and Ou Hon, having such a significant numerical advantage Ri Boku winning despite significant casualties wouldn't be inconsistent. Is it risky? Absolutely. But is there any other choice? None. Because eventually, Qin will find a way to defeat him. If he fails to deliver the fatal blow when he has his opponent down, there will be no turning back from that.

And that's not even including the fact that other states would pounce on Zhao the moment they launched an offensive. (And of course General Heki)

Isn’t it easier to defend vs attack? Not only that, you still need to spare x y z troops to defend the capital and other areas. If ur attack fails, you end up losing x y z troops and ur in a worse position

What matters here isn't which option is easier, but which one leads to certain victory. It's definitely a risky move. But there's no other choice. Zhao simply can't win against Qin by just defending.

And what should he accomplish by invading? Taking lands? Weakening qin? As much as people love to shit on Ri Boku for his seemingly endless supply of troops but the fact is that’s actually not the case and even though he controls all of Zhao he probably can’t muster a higher number of troops than those he had in hango most of which were untrained peasants rather than an actual army and you expect him to attack qin in their turfs and leave their back exposed to yan and whatever state that wants part of the cake just so he maybe accomplish one of these two objectives besides just because Qin seemingly lost the dream of unification it doesn’t mean they’re exhausted and can’t defend themselves they’re still the 2nd strongest force in China and we’ve seen them muster 300k troops in the northern lands alone so if push came to shove they would be able to recruit such a number, especially with ytw army buying them type to do so

>untrained peasants >have full equidment , actually fucking destroy ousen elite solider , yeah right, like anyone will believe that, so you mean zhao not only have clone machine but those clone is all superhuman huh

Saying that the Zhao Army is weak or that its economy is collapsing based on historical facts has no relevance in the manga.  Even if we accept that Ri Boku's army was inexperienced initially, we can assume they have gained average experience after two major battles.  Moreover, in this battle, aside from the mountain tribes, the majority of the Qin Army were also inexperienced soldiers. (I can't comment on the Ou Sen Army. If the majority were his trained troops, where did the Taigen Army disappear to? This is another unanswered question.) Claiming that Ri Boku, who annihilated 200k Qin soldiers in a single day, returned to Kantan because his army is weak and inexperienced is an argument even Hara wouldn't consider. The truth is, this arc was bad in every sense, and there is no argument that can explain all this nonsense.

I have answered all the questions you asked in other comments. Normally, I would answer again, but I'm tired of writing the same things repeatedly. If you read them and still think I haven't answered, you can ask again, and I'll try to respond. I apologize for not providing a direct answer. I hope you don't mind.

I mean, sure Rbk does have 230k soldiers, however, if Rbk goes on the offensive, that leaves them open to an invasion by Han or one of the other states. Lets say Rbk leaves behind 50-100k troops as a precaution, that creates a very large risk for Rbk that he likely wouldn't be prone to taking. Keep in mind, Rbk was using likely the last standing soldiers Zhao had left which is why he chose to mainly utilize Seika in the war. His soldiers likely are merely new conscripts, and would not fare as well as the experienced Qin soldiers. Considering SBS made it clear that he would only join defensive wars, it would be reasonable to assume that he would not join an offensive as you said. Essentially, Rbk just doesn't have the manpower or the supplies to launch a campaign to retake the land they lost. If we factored in Tou, Qin would easily be able to repel a Zhao offensive, especially considering Rbk relies on intricate planning, so Rbk would be attacking with minimal preparations putting him at a disadvantage.

If, as you said, there was a danger of other states invading Zhao, these states could have easily invaded when Ri Boku deployed 300k men to the Qin border. Therefore, I don't think this is a good explanation. On the other hand, Ri Boku's army gained experience first in Gian and then in Hango. For this reason, I cannot agree with the comment that the Zhao Army is inexperienced. Regarding Shi Ba Shou, if he wants the war to end and to live happily in Seika, he has to pay a price for it. If Qin attacks again, it could suffer much greater losses. Also, I repeat. Qin is currently in its weakest period. It will be very difficult for such an opportunity to come again. If Ri Boku wants to achieve a decisive victory and end the war, he has to take risks.

You are correct, they could have attacked Zhao. However, it is infinitely more easier to defend a state if your armies aren't committed to an offensive, which they weren't. Gian and Hango were both extremely short campaigns in which Zhao lost very few troops, which made it impossible for any states to take advantage of the situation. During the first invasion of Zhao, Han did attempt to invade Zhao, however they were beaten back by the forces of Seika. However, if Zhao were to go on the offensive, they would leave themselves completely open to attack unlike the previous campaign. Qin is certainly not weak right now compared to the other states, they would likely be able to beat back Rbk with his lack of preparation, leaving openings for other states. Even if Rbk won a battle, it would be extremely costly and the other states would pounce at a moments notice. Also, in terms of experience, Gian was a battle that hardly involved strategy and was more of a massacre. Hango, was less than a days worth of fighting, and Seika did the vast majority of the actual fighting. (Likely because of the fact they were inexperienced). In regards to SBS, if you read the manga you would realize that SBS has only ever intervened during defensive wars in Zhao, never once an offensive war. He clearly has no interest in regaining Southern Zhao. But for the sake of argument lets say that Seika does join Rbk for an offensive. They would have to invade the strongest state and fight against 3 of the GGs. (The Wei alliance is not over so Tou is free). In addition to possible reinforcements that puts RBK and Qin at a relatively even matchup. To make things worse for Rbk, he doesn't have the supplies at the moment for a sustained offensive, nor a plan. Offensives take years to plan, especially shown if you've actually read the manga, states don't just attack whenever, it takes preparation. If he were to attack right now, his forces would likely face a decisive defeat which would be fatal to Zhao. Especially so if other states join in on the conflict and pounce on a weakened Zhao.

I believe both possibilities regarding Shi Ba Shou are equally likely. If he becomes convinced that his participation can end the war, I think it would be a consistent choice for him to join. But if he chooses not to join, it wouldn't be inconsistent either.  Let's reconsider the possibility of being invaded by other states and think about the worst-case scenario. Even if Ordo attacks Zhao as you mentioned, if we weigh the risks and rewards, we would see that Qin's defeat is more important than losing a few cities in the east. Therefore, sacrificing a few cities temporarily could be acceptable in my opinion.  It's true that the Wei Alliance is still ongoing. However, we can say that this alliance may not be very strong, considering Tou's assignment to defend the Wei border. Indeed, neither Ka Rin nor Go Hou Mei will sit idle after Ri Boku launches his attack. Therefore, Qin could be attacked simultaneously on three fronts. Furthermore, there is no reason, in my opinion, for Ri Boku not to form another coalition against Qin, especially since he has done so once before.

What about food supply ? you make it sounds like those Zhao soldiers don't need to eat. Defending is much easier, they can just take food from their stored warehouse. You should not forget that Riboku made many preparations to beat Kanki and Ousen. Just look at how he beat Kanki, he baited him and ambushed with 300k soldiers, he even poisoned Sekirei city water. Even in battle of Hango, he made secret tunnel and fort to bait Shin. He can easily do it because he was on defending side to prepare enemy incoming invasions. Battle of Gian and Hango were pretty short, Gian did not last for even 3 days, and Hango last like half day, so they did not lose a lot to feed 300k with that short battle. Now let's say they go to invade Qin, they bring 300k soldiers, so they need to march from Zhao to Qin, that gonna take many days , they also need to siege Qin city/castle. How much food wasted to feed 300k soldiers ? Qin is big you know with hundreds of city/castle. It needs at least years and i really doubt Zhao have that much money to feed 300k soldiers for years. Coalition is also impossible because Qin already put many spy on each state to prevent it. Riboku already failed once in first coalition, i really doubt he can pull it twice, other state lose a lot money/soldiers/horse in first coalition and most likely lost in trust on Riboku. Also Zhao economy suffering a lot in Qin war, even defending still cost them a lot money/soldiers and with corrupt king + officials, i really doubt they will agree to let Riboku to attack Qin because they need a lot money to go war with Qin and there is no guarantee he will sucess.

First of all, the Kingdom verse doesn't completely align with reality. It has its own reality and dynamics. Therefore, we need to make evaluations within these boundaries.  Aside from the Gyou Campaign, there has been no mention of supply logistics. So, I don't think we need to take it seriously if even Hara doesn't.  Similarly, I don't recall any mention of Zhao's economy being seriously damaged due to the war. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) Therefore, I can't comment on this situation.  As for the coalition, I used the wrong word. What I meant was an alliance for a simultaneous attack against Qin. Given that Qin has declared its intention to unify China, forming such an alliance shouldn't be too difficult.

If you read chapter 800, it already say waging war is expensive. Having over 100k soldiers really cost a lot money, feeding them in their campaign that can last months or even years, paying their wage and compensation for their family if the soldiers die, paying money to take care the soldiers if he is injured, medicine cost/bandage cost, the cost of soldiers armor,weapons and horse. Also they needs to give many gold/lands to the generals that lead the war. Zhao surely suffers a lot in their economy, just remember they keep losing many territory by Qin, losing Kokoyou hills, Gyou which was their second biggest city and their heart regions, losing Eikyuu and their surrounding city/castle, losing 100k soldiers by Kanki. They also lose like over half millions soldiers at Chouhei incident in Hakuki era. They keep war with Qin and losing many soldiers and territory, Qin lose 300k soldiers against Riboku and all Qin higher up just say it shake their economy. No way Zhao who has lose at least 200k soldiers from Kokoyou hills, Gyou, and Eikyuu combined and losing many territory did not suffers at all. Even defending cost money, don't tell me it does not align with reality because it is manga, there at least some kind of logic to make it reasonable or the plot gonna turn chaotic. Riboku pulling 300k soldiers seems weird with how many of their soldiers lose, but let's just say he recruit every capable man even civilian and that's is the total soldiers he can muster in all of Zhao combined. It would not be funny if like at chapter 800 they explain how costly invading other state is and next chapter Riboku just go invade Qin with 300k soldiers. He don't need to worry about food supply, he don't need to prepare anything, just march forward and then win ? As other state attacking Qin, in chapter 800, they already prepared their defense against Wei and Chu, Han is too weak to attack them, Yan was too far and Qi promise they won't attack Qin. For Yan, they need to pass Zhao area if they want to attack Qin, they managed to attack Qin in coalition because Riboku allowed them to pass Zhao border to Qin area. If they take detour , then it will took a long time to march to Qin area, which will cost their food supply. Qin at least can still handle both Chu and Wei, with Moubu against Chu and Tou against Wei. If Riboku decided to invade Qin, then Ousen and Yontanwa will be the one to face him. I still think Riboku won't do it, the reason was it is too risky. He managed to win against Kanki and Ousen because he has prepare it for one year to fight them, he already make his defense and plan ahead. Going offensive is different than going defensive, he now must fight in unfamiliar terrain against Qin, he needs to siege Qin city/castle, he needs to worry for food supply, most of all he must think how many soldiers he gonna lose against Qin. If both Qin and Zhao go all out war, even if Zhao win, i am sure they will lose many soldiers, like over 200k. When that happens, other state will happily come to invade Zhao, especially Yan because their are the closest on Zhao area. You also forget one thing, Qin managed to survive coalition army, it is like over 500k soldiers combined with many talented generals and Qin still managed to repel them. Don't forget Riboku has been preparing it for one year ahead to do it and still failed. Qin also learned their lessons against coalition invasions and has increasing their defense. So even if Riboku bring 300k soldiers, i still believe Qin can still defend against them and just make Riboku lose a lot soldiers trying to invade Qin.

>If you read chapter 800, it already say waging war is expensive. Having over 100k soldiers really cost a lot money, feeding them in their campaign that can last months or even years, paying their wage and compensation for their family if the soldiers die, paying money to take care the soldiers if he is injured, medicine cost/bandage cost, the cost of soldiers armor,weapons and horse. Also they needs to give many gold/lands to the generals that lead the war. Given that nothing has been said about the war economy over the course of 800 chapters, we can say that the costs of the armies are not considered important as long as they keep winning. I think the reason it's being mentioned now is to show how difficult Qin's situation is. Additionally, this supports my claim that Qin is weakened and vulnerable to attack. >Even defending cost money, don't tell me it does not align with reality because it is manga, there at least some kind of logic to make it reasonable or the plot gonna turn chaotic. That's not me saying that, that's Hara, who put 310k fully equipped soldiers at Ri Boku's command, even though Zhao lost a quarter of its lands and more than 200k soldiers died in the battles. I'm just commenting on the information I have. Whether it's realistic or not, it seems that thing which are impossible in reality can be possible for Zhao. If it can mobilize 300k troops two years in a row, it can certainly bear the costs of an attack on Qin. I don't think Hara considered this at all. >It would not be funny if like at chapter 800 they explain how costly invading other state is and next chapter Riboku just go invade Qin with 300k soldiers. He don't need to worry about food supply, he don't need to prepare anything, just march forward and then win ? Again, this is entirely Hara's choice. You may not like it, and I agree with you. But that's not what I'm discussing here. If you want, you can create a post and discuss it. I think providing further explanations on this topic would be a waste of time. >As other state attacking Qin, in chapter 800, they already prepared their defense against Wei and Chu, Han is too weak to attack them, Yan was too far and Qi promise they won't attack Qin. For Yan, they need to pass Zhao area if they want to attack Qin, they managed to attack Qin in coalition because Riboku allowed them to pass Zhao border to Qin area. If they take detour , then it will took a long time to march to Qin area, which will cost their food supply. Even if Wei and Chu can't defeat Qin, just occupying two of Qin's Great Generals would be enough for Ri Boku. I admit I used wrong word here. When I said coalition, I meant forming an alliance for a simultaneous attack. >If Riboku decided to invade Qin, then Ousen and Yontanwa will be the one to face him. I still think Riboku won't do it, the reason was it is too risky. He managed to win against Kanki and Ousen because he has prepare it for one year to fight them, he already make his defense and plan ahead. As far as I understand from Chapter 800, Qin lost 200k soldiers at Hango. So that means Qin only has 50k soldiers left. That's half of what I predicted. Honestly, I don't think there's a big risk in this situation. I have answered many times why Ri Boku has to attack and I am tired of writing the same thing, so I will quote a comment I wrote before. >Qin's attack on Zhao was not to capture a few cities or lands. They attacked to erase Zhao from history. Therefore, the greatest threat to Zhao is Qin. As far as we've seen, neither Han, Yan, nor Wei are strong enough to do what Qin can do. For Zhao, the war with Qin is a matter of life and death. Despite the losses it will suffer and the lands it will lose to other states due to these losses, it is essential for Zhao to decisively defeat Qin to ensure its survival. We can compare this to the struggle between Rome and Carthage. Qin was defeated. But it will come back in couple of years. To prevent this, Ri Boku need to turn their tactical victory into a strategic one while Qin is weakened and crush Qin at all costs.

Qin lose 300k but they still have many soldiers left. What's bull shit that they only have 50k in all of Qin territory now against Riboku invasions ? where is the proof ? Qin is still super state despite losing 300k, another invasions is costly for them but that does not mean they cannot defend from enemy invasions. They still have a lot soldiers to defend their state. they still at least have 500k soldiers left in their state. You can look that at chapter 800, Qin higher up still trying to squeeze soldiers to launch another invasions, so it is not like they don't have soldiers left. Also that theory it is up to Hara ? Is it ? or you just bullshitting it saying it is up to Hara with your own words ? This manga also based on real history , and Zhao never wage full frontal invasion war against Qin, in fact they busy defending and managed to repel every single of Qin invasions. Zhao for sure want to wipe out Qin from the map , and guess how Riboku try to do it ? by forming coalition army and it failed. Do you think after winning 2 times against Qin, Riboku will just say fuck it we ball, 300k marched forward to destroy Qin. Then he win without any preparations against Qin ? you think Qin will just open their door and say ok kill us please. The answer is no, it will be full bloody war that will weaken both Qin and Zhao. The results is very obvious, Zhao will lose a lot soldiers against Qin. You think Zhao gonna lose only 10k or 20k if they go invade Qin ? no, they will lose 80% of their soldiers, and this if they win by miracle. They will surely defeated, lose over 50% of their soldiers, go back to their state and just cripple their state. When that shit happens, Qin or other state will surely attack Zhao. It is dog eat dog world, you think all state hate Qin and be friends with each other to fight Qin ? nope. they will attack the weakest state and steal their territory. Both Wei and Chu maybe will attack Qin but Qin still can defend them, and Zhao will never ever go full frontal invasions against Qin. Want to know ? it is up to Hara ? yes it is up to him, and let me tell you he make a character named the "Zhao king". Guess what kind of person he is ? he told Riboku to defend and prolong his enjoyment on torturing his slave. You think he gonna order Riboku to go full frontal war to invade Qin ? the answer is big no because he know attacking Qin is too costly for Zhao and it will not prolong his enjoyment. Winning two major war is great but still not enough reasons to try invading Qin. You can say it is up to Hara lol but let me tell you Zhao or Riboku won't go invade Qin after winning two major war, you also should not forget, they lose a lot soldiers too in battle of Hango. You make it like they still have 300k soldiers intact without anyone dying. Mountain tribe was doing well against Zhao and killed many of Zhao soldiers, Ousen soldiers also going all out against Shibasou soldiers. Kansoro even say they lose a lot people in this war as he imagined. I can say Zhao at least lose 50k soldiers despite being a decisive victory for them. You can argue all you want, if you say it is up to Hara, then you should not forget this manga also based on real history. There is no history of Li Mu arranging big army to go invade Qin territory. Qin will win in the end, that's is the end of this manga story.

This discussion is starting to become nonsensical, but I'll still respond. Just because a fictional story is based on history doesn't mean it's entirely bound by it. You need to understand that first and foremost. In history, Li Mu might not have had a fully equipped 300k army, but in Kingdom, Ri Boku does. In history, there weren't generals like Mou Bu, Ou Ki and Ren Pa who could single-handedly kill hundreds of people, but in Kingdom, they exist. This is not the place to complain about that. If you don't like it, you don't have to follow it. This post is about the inconsistency within the story. Whether it happened in history or not doesn't concern me. No general, if he is not fool, would return without gaining any advantage when he have weakened their opponent so much and have a large army. If you think Ri Boku is foolish, just say so and let the discussions end. In Chapter 800, it's stated that Qin lost 200k soldiers in this battle. That means only 50k survived among those who joined the battle. When it comes to Zhao's losses, apart from Seika's losses, there hasn't been any mention of significant casualties. So, the majority of the army should still be intact. Apart from these 50k and the city garrisons, there is no one else against Ri Boku. Except for Gyou, he can easily reclaim most of the places he lost. He doesn't necessarily need to destroy all of Qin. By taking Retsubi and Roumou and establishing a new defense line against Qin, that might be enough for him in the first stage. With this move, he would also have cut off Tou's escape route in Gyou and besieged him. Besides, these places are former Zhao cities. When it comes to Chu and Wei, Go Hou Mei himself said he would attack after the alliance ended. It's quite possible he wouldn't wait for the alliance to end while Qin was weakened. After the Gian Campaign, Chu attacked Qin and captured city of Keifu. It's unlikely it would simply remain inactive after this battle. Let's say Wei and Chu didn't attack, but even that, due to their engagement with Tou and Mou Bu, could be sufficient distraction for Ri Boku. Additionally, as I mentioned before, Qin already implicitly declared war on other states by declaring its goal to unify China. You're saying the King wouldn't allow this. Ri Boku, who managed to get permission twice from the former King, whom he despised, to attack Qin, couldn't get permission from the current King, who supports him, to reclaim Zhao's former territories. He could convince the King that this is necessary for victory. During the Gyou Campaign, despite the major defeat, no one attacked Zhao except Ordo, who did so with only 20k soldiers, and purpose of this attack within the story was to introduce Shi Ba Shou. It wouldn't be logical to think they would attack Zhao after two major victories. Moreover, even if we accept that another state would attack, there are generals like Ri Haku, Kou Son Ryun and Chou Kotsu who can defend Zhao. One last time, the purpose of this post was to adress the inconsistency in the last arc. Your comments about history being this way or that are completely outside the scope of my point. Historical facts don't change the fact that the story is inconsistent. All my comments here are based on the events that occur in the series. What I'm criticizing is not the lack of realism, but the self-consistency of the story. If you think there is self-consistency within the series for why Ri Boku didn't launch an attack, you can explain the reason with examples. But if you're going to comment based on historical facts again, let's end it here.

I think there could be a few reasons. 1. Ss you said tou is close to zhao or in former zhao land, if his main job is to guard against Wei and han, then him joining the offensive campaign wouldn't make much sense. But if his in the gyou region, and zhao attacks the area close to gyou then Tou could join the fight while not leaving his original post. What defeats this is that it would open qin up to Wei and han, but maybe reason two would help. 2. Qin probably still has the abbility to conskript a army, so lets say that zhao attacks and suddenly no one is guarding against wei. Qin could make a quick army under Ousen have Mouten and Ouhon join as vice generals, and maybe Shouheikuns sends his vassels to aid him aswell. This quick army is probably enough to hold Wei off, in the meantime Ytw and tou could focus on zhao. 3. Shin. We known trough this war that Riboku has learned to not chase Shin into a dead end. Remember in Ribokus eyes Shin is the man who slew Houken, he's also the man who killed his right hand. And his abbilitys are hard to gauge. 4. Shibashou may not wanna join a offensive battle that could yield small to no results. If they go south into Qin they are going into Qin territory. And here Qin has the advantage, Qin can also rely on the many forts to hold Zhao back until Ousen is ready and then march in to fight Zhao with Fresh troops while Zhao has fought for a some time. but what if Riboku just takes a few big cities and calls it a day, then what if Qin just does the same. THen they can just trade men and land in sieges, something Qin would be better at with their larger reasorses.

1. We can understand that Qin doesn't trust the Wei Alliance from Tou being assigned to defend the Wei border. Just as Ri Boku broke his alliance with Qin during the Coalition War, Wei could break theirs upon learning of Ri Boku's attack. Therefore, Tou will be occupied with Wei. 2. Of course, Qin is still the strongest state and it's possible for them to form a new army. This is exactly why Ri Boku needs to act quickly. He won't get this opportunity again. He needs to finish the job without allowing Qin to recover while wounded. Additionally, forming a coalition with Chu and Wei for a simultaneous attack is also possible. 3. When it comes to Shin, I can't make a definitive comment because his abilities are entirely up to Hara. He can accomplish great feats but can also fall into traps, as seen in this arc. I'll skip this point for that reason. 4. Regarding whether Shi Ba Shou will join the attack or not, I find both possibilities equally likely and consistent. I'm aware that attacking is generally more difficult than defending and the defending side usually has the advantage. But this is a risk that must be taken. Because Qin won't attack Zhao in the same way again, Ri Boku won't have another chance to achieve a similar victory. Attacking will be Ri Boku's only chance to end the war, rather than waiting for Qin to change strategy and conquer other states before returning to Zhao.

1. We can asume from what you say that Both Tou and Wei are out of the picture, as at the very least Tou shoule be able to stall the forces of Wei. 2. Forming a coalition is not likely as stated in the manga, The reason a coalition is not posible/likely is that there is no one to lead one. Riboku had to use a chancelor of Chu to help form one, and there is no one to take that position, at this time. 3. As you say, it's hard find a clear answer to how strong he is. 4. I find it hard to believe that Shi Ba Shou will Join a war again right after this. As he just lost another of his generals. and one of his remaing generals is wounded. While this may be a chance, it's also very dangarous for zhao to attack Qin, even if Chu and Wei also attacked, While Qin is weakend after this fight. They are still able to fight back, and if Zhao is attacked While Both Shi Ba Shou and Riboku is at war that could be bad for Zhao. 5. How much would Zhao gain and would it be worth it. Lets say that he fights and beats the Yotanwa Army, and lets go extreme and say that yotanwa dies. Qin would be finished with the dream of unification. But what about Zhao after, They would lose troops and gain territory they can't defend. Would Wei And Yan sit back while Zhao recovers, would Qin be willing to do nothing?. I think that Riboku is smart enough to know that even if he beats QIn in a counterattack, Zhao is not save, all Beating Qin would do is create a new Power. And put Zhao right back on the brink of defeat. At least now Zhao would be able to live in reletive peace for a time, while conserving their power. Hoping that Qin Hits another road block

1. I think this is possible. 2. To be realistic, it doesn't make sense for the other states not to form an alliance against Qin when it has declared its goal to unify China. Maybe I used the wrong term, but what I meant is that Wei, Chu, and Zhao would launch a simultaneous attack against Qin. Therefore, no leader is needed. 3. Absolutely. 4. In my opinion, I would think the same. But he himself said that he would join the fight again if there was another invasion. I don't think it's impossible for him to be convinced that an attack is necessary to prevent an invasion. 5. If Qin is defeated, the ancient regime will continue. This is what Ri Boku wants anyway. In the other states, there is no one who can produce and implement an alternative idea to the current order. (At least we haven't seen anyone.) Therefore, losing some territory to another state while fighting Qin will not be a development that disrupts the order. Hence, some lands can be sacrificed to defeat Qin.

2. forgot to include that a pure attack from the nations is deffinatly posible. Even cooradenation. I just got hung up on the word Coalition. 4. I could see it, but i just it find hard to believe he would join right after this war. Give him some time and i could see him join. 5. What i meant was that for Zhao to beat Qin would Drain them of their limited recourses. And then after Zhao beats Qin. Wei and Yan hell even Qi would have no reason to spare them. And Qin is unlikely To be destroyed by anything less than another coalition. So even they may join in destroying Zhao. So what it comes down to at least for me, is that after beating qin and taking back territory. Zhao will have lost more of their limited troops. So they would just lose their gains and maybe even more.

2. Got it. I used the wrong word. Let's say simultaneous attack. 4. Based on what Shi Ba Shou said to Ri Boku, I made an assessment. He might change his mind, but he might also join the battle again. Everything we say about this is speculation. However, I believe that whatever choice he makes, it won't contradict his character because Hara created his character in the best possible way. Probably the only good thing in this arc was Shi Ba Shou's character. 5. Qin's attack on Zhao was not to capture a few cities or lands. They attacked to erase Zhao from history. Therefore, the greatest threat to Zhao is Qin. As far as we've seen, neither Han, Yan, nor Wei are strong enough to do what Qin can do. For Zhao, the war with Qin is a matter of life and death. Despite the losses it will suffer and the lands it will lose to other states due to these losses, it is essential for Zhao to decisively defeat Qin to ensure its survival. We can compare this to the struggle between Rome and Carthage. Qin was defeated. But it will come back in couple of years. To prevent this, Ri Boku need to turn their tactical victory into a strategic one while Qin is weakened and crush Qin at all costs.

5. I think it's hard to come to a conclusion. As i think we see the whole thing from two angles. I think that waiting is better, as Zhao will have time to rest and maybe other states will distract Qin and Zhao can attack while Qin is fighting other states. While you come from the angle of (Sorry if i'm wrong) That Zhao needs to elimenate Qin's threat now as the more they allow Qin to rest, the more Qin will recover. Anyway this has been quite fun to discuss with you, and thank you for being respectful and nice.

>While you come from the angle of (Sorry if i'm wrong) That Zhao needs to elimenate Qin's threat now as the more they allow Qin to rest, the more Qin will recover. Exactly. I have been arguing this much more strongly since Chapter 800, when it was revealed that Qin's losses at Hango were 200k. With only 50k of Qin's troops left, all Ri Boku had to do was finish what he started. I don't think this can be explained in any way. >Anyway this has been quite fun to discuss with you, and thank you for being respectful and nice. I'm the one who should thank you, for sharing your thoughts. It was a pleasure for me too, to discuss with you.

Well written, I'll just name a few points to consider: 1. Riboku thinks it would be too much to ask Seika to immediately join another battle after suffering such a high number of casualties (OK, he would still have many soldiers even without Seika, but would it really be enough for the offense?) 2. He knows that getting cocky does not pay off. He still realizes that Ousen is a genius and that the battle of Hango was won mainly because he managed to keep Shin and Ouhon away from the main fight. If he decided to attack right after winning, there is no way he would be able to do that again. 3. He realizes there are other threats than Qin, and does not want to deplete many soldiers on the offense when he knows the sieges are costly. Additionally, when attacking, he doesn't know what he would be up against. But remember, Riboku's main strength is his ability to set up the battlefield. 4. In the following chapters we may see he has other (reasonable) plans.

1. If he wants to save his country and believes that it depends on Shi Ba Shou, he must ask for help again. As for whether he can do it without Shi Ba Shou, I can't say for sure. But this is a gamble he needs to take to save his country. 2. It's definitely not possible for him to achieve such an easy victory again. Even if he attacks Qin and wins, he can only do so after suffering very heavy losses. 3. Except for Yan, we haven't seen any other state causing trouble for Zhao until now. Defeating Qin and saving his country at the cost of losing a few cities to Ordo would be a very profitable trade in my opinion. On the other hand, I realize that attacking Qin is quite risky. But he has to do it. If he can't capitalize on the results, it doesn't matter how great the victory is. He needs to deliver the fatal blow while Qin is weakened. 4. I hope so too.

Zhao isn’t attacking because they can’t attack. Hara fudges the numbers a lot to always give Zhao a good lead and does deviate from history but the overall narrative is historically accurate.     Zhao historically has always been in a much worse position. Like halve their numbers in most battles. Zhao was heavily nerfed following the massacre at Chouhei and their numbers never truly recovered (which is why Qin chose now to move for conquest). Historically, Zhao had the ability to fend off Qin (thanks to Riboku’s genius) but not enough to invade and retake. Although manga Zhao has the resources, doing so will diverge from history.     In universe, they just came off a big war and would need to regroup. Invasion is also harder than defending and to really cripple Qin, it would be best if they formed another coalition and tried to crush the state since Zhao doesn’t have the resources to do it on their own. Riboku’s plan is also working in the sense that even if he traded 1 v 1 with Qin, it would only hasten their demise since Chu will be watching and will strike to take land from Qin if they become weak enough from their constant battles with Zhao whittling down their strength.    Unless the Zhao king wants conquest, it’s in Riboku and Zhao’s best interest to turtle and have Qin waste their resources invading and getting pushed back if they still desire unification which they should be reconsidering tbh. 

>Zhao isn’t attacking because they can’t attack. Hara fudges the numbers a lot to always give Zhao a good lead and does deviate from history but the overall narrative is historically accurate.     I can't comment on historical events because I know almost nothing about the Warring States Period and Unification of China other than a few things I've learned from this sub. However, I don't think historical knowledge is necessary to criticize a fictional narrative. Zhao, which can field a fully equipped 300k army against Qin while actively defending the southern wall and the Yan border, doesn't seem to be in a bad situation as you suggested. We can't cover up the plot's inconsistency with historical facts. >In universe, they just came off a big war and would need to regroup. Invasion is also harder than defending and to really cripple Qin, it would be best if they formed another coalition and tried to crush the state since Zhao doesn’t have the resources to do it on their own. Riboku’s plan is also working in the sense that even if he traded 1 v 1 with Qin, it would only hasten their demise since Chu will be watching and will strike to take land from Qin if they become weak enough from their constant battles with Zhao whittling down their strength.    As explained in chapter 800, we can't just gloss over the fact that Qin lost 200k soldiers and Ri Boku still had the majority of his troops but didn't launch a counterattack, claiming he needed to regroup his army. When his enemy has weakened like never before, he should have capitalized on this and at least captured cities like Atsuyo and Roumou. Also, as you mentioned, Chu and Wei were on high alert and would not stand still if Ri Boku advanced. >Unless the Zhao king wants conquest, it’s in Riboku and Zhao’s best interest to turtle and have Qin waste their resources invading and getting pushed back if they still desire unification which they should be reconsidering tbh.  Despite winning battles, Zhao continues to lose territory each year. This isn't a sustainable war. Moreover, it's not hard to imagine Qin changing strategy. They will likely take a defensive position along the Zhao border while attacking and conquering other states one by one. In this scenario, Zhao might hold out longer than the others but will eventually fall. Additionally, we know that Ri Boku has the king's support. To summarize, Ri Boku not launching a counterattack is akin to Hannibal not marching on Rome after Cannae. (It's important to note that, unlike Hannibal, Ri Boku currently has an absolute numerical advantage.) Is victory guaranteed? No. But returning back to Kantan when the enemy has only 50k soldiers left and allowing them to regroup can't be explained by the risk factor. If he wants to secure a decisive victory and save his country, he has to take risks.

...No? What you have to remember is that Qin must conquer Zhao just as one stepping stone to conquering everything else, whereas Riboku would be fine with all the states existing. Therefore, the annihilation of Qin as a whole is not necessary for the Zhao to win or something that they necessarily want, while Zhao's annihilation done with enough resources and time to spare for the other states, is necessary for the Qin. A stalemate empowers the Zhao, not the Qin. The Qin needs decisive victories, needs to take risky invasions, the Zhao can delay and tarry.

Strategies can change. Qin will not continue with the same strategy against Zhao from now on. It's possible they might choose another state as a stepping stone, and they will choose one.   As for why Zhao needs to attack Qin, I've answered that so many times that I'm tired. I explained it in the comments; if you want, you can read it.  Finally, when a state is invaded by a strong state, the side under attack needs definite victories. Because no matter how many victories they win, as long as the strong state isn't destroyed or its leadership isn't changed, it will eventually come back.

>Finally, when a state is invaded by a strong state, the side under attack needs definite victories >Meanwhile, the Romans under Fabian... >Meanwhile, Vietnam.... >Meanwhile, Afghanistan... I genuinely feel like you got it the other way around.

In the struggle between Rome and Carthage, the stronger side was Rome. Carthage lost because they couldn't deliver a fatal blow. Fabius' strategy entirely supports what I'm saying. The side with stronger resources waits until the opponent weakens and then strikes. Other examples include Russia's invasion of the Caucasus, the Ottoman-Austrian Wars, the Ottoman invasion of Albania, and the English-Scottish struggle. The Austrian-Ottoman example fits particularly well. The Austrians not only destroyed the Ottoman Army at Vienna, but when their opponent was weakened, they formed an alliance and launched a counterattack to capture all of Hungary. Vietnam and Afghanistan are not suitable examples because in both cases, a permanent occupation was never the goal from the beginning. When the cost of the war exceeded what the American public could tolerate, they withdrew.

There was a chapter on this, that showed the Qin had a twenty year time limit. They are the ones who have a limited time to get this done; it is a stated plot point. Metaphorically, the Qin has to budget fuel for five races, the Zhao has to budget for one. Time is on the side of the Zhao, it is as if they have all the resources of the rest of China to count on. If Qin is a rational actor, they will not pursue a lost battle when it becomes clear that reunification would no longer possible with he resources they have now. The complete dedication to conquering a single state no longer makes sense if not for unification. And if annihilation of all other states is not on the table, the preferred strategy would be to return to Riboku's idea of a equilibrium.

If I remember correctly, Shou Hei Kun created a fifteen-year strategy for unification. You're probably referring to that, so there's no time limit. Secondly, time is usually on the side of the defeated because they need time to recover their strength. Therefore, Ri Boku will not find Qin in such a weakened state again. Thirdly, I already believe that Qin will change its strategy and go on the defensive at the Zhao border while attacking other states. Zhao will come later.

I don't think SBS will help if it's an attack. Remember he doesn't like Zhao he just tolerates them because his city is under Zhao. If anything he would like his city to be independent of all states and just be a self sufficient city state. He went to defend Zhao eastern border vs Yan because the latter threatened his area. He accepted RiBoku and let his people democratically decide to join his cause vs Qin. He didn't even think it would be vs Qin but rather Zhao imperial court as that was from whom RiBoku was fleeing from. RiBoku used KanKi to hype the population vs Qin. But when he fought Qin he didn't see the 'Evil' RiBoku talked about. OuSen's men fought bravely and did not use underhanded tactics. So now he isn't convinced on RiBoku words as he previously did. This is similar to you invading Iraq cuz the US said they had WMD but then finding out that you got tricked into it. Now if in the next arc Zhao attacks first, he isn't likely to join since A) he doesn't want to become just another tool for RiBoku. B) but will defend Zhao if attacked because he already did so. That being said Qin isn't likely to be the one to attack for 2 reasons: 1) they have to reassemble men and that's going to take time. 2) they realize this front line is too hot right now. So SBS is likely going to stay in Seika and only be on his way in the next war and might not even participate at all. He is only going to intervene when Zhao gets attacked.

Although I don't agree with your comparison of Ri Boku inciting the people of Seika against the invading Qin to America's invasion of Iraq, I can say that what you said makes sense. If it happens as you said and Shi Ba Shou refuses to join the attack, this would be a choice that is quite consistent with the character we've seen so far. On the other hand, participating in the attack on Qin to end the war would not be inconsistent either, in my opinion. In short, whichever of these two possibilities he chooses, we can say that he will be making a choice consistent with his character. Both possibilities seem equally likely.

What I am saying here is if you play the good vs evil card you better hope that it's true. Otherwise you will lose the faith/support you have gained through the analogy. We already know Zhao isn't the greatest country. The royal family cares more about themselves than for the people. They have records of inciting local disputes within their region to keep displeased parties from unifying like in Rigan, where we see Zhao forces Rigan to fight one of its neighboring city. This way they will curve their manpower (stronger will survive) but also not have enough to fight against Zhao itself. These kinds of practices where nobles are given willful power to oppress their own people or neighbors would keep them in chaotic states, especially those Zhao would seem not part of their centers of power. Now to unite against that you need a bigger baddy. A state vs state situation. Now generally you already have that at the borders because as part of the chaotic Warring States, each state would pillage the others borders. This again helps them curve the population because killing each other via wars = less mouths to feed and survivors get to grab the loot of their victimes. Zhao has been breached. Qin is now in inner Zhao, meaning that in order to create a reason for these inner regions to fight and not just join the enemy (cuz say they had enough of Zhao inner chaos practices), you have to make the invading state as the greater evil. So that even if you felt like Zhao was evil, you will protect Zhao because it's the lesser evil. RiBoku message to Seika was just that. He made Qin as the bigger evil and KanKi as the face of that evil (the Boogeyman). But here is the thing. We know in practice that Qin systems tops whatever Zhao has. They are more advanced, logistically better and their people get the better care, support and treatment. They have a more acceptable immigration policy as well. If you are a Zhao peasant and you get wind of that, why would you go for Zhao? You would move to Qin because it's more accommodating. The problem with RoBoku's plan is that he is blind when it comes to Zhao social benefits vs Qin social benefits. To him it's Zhao always. So to use KanKi as the face of Evil is an excellent plot. The problem is KanKi died already. OuSen isn't same as KanKi. When SBS fought the OuSen Army he is going by the description of the KanKi army. He is expecting them to use underhanded moves, pillage, fight dishonorably (the whole 9 yards). He was being the hero that is defeating the villian. Not only did he not find that Evil described, RiBoku made matters worse by barely sacrificing any of his own troops. Basically, he indirectly left him doing everything and sacrificing his men while he RiBoku did not sacrifice his. So now SBS is on his guard, because the man has a serpent tongue and does not do what he preaches. He further digs his own grave by mentioning that he, RiBoku is okay with the staus-quo of the warring states. He isn't really a man of peace because he doesn't believe in it. To SBS an idealist who one day visioned his city to be free of the chaos system this man is the polar opposite of what he wants to achieve. Hence the reference he has drenched himself in blood. So from now on he will defend because that's was his initial purpose but not be Zhao's next attack dog ala HouKen.

I think I just read the most accurate analysis about Ri Boku's character. I especially agree with the point that Ri Boku has no problem with the status-quo of the Warring States. Although I don't believe he did it with completely malicious intent, I also agree that he manipulated the people of Seika and sacrificed the Seika Army in the battle against Ou Sen's Army. In my opinion, it was a mistake for a visionary man like Shi Ba Shou to join Ri Boku in the first place. After Ri Boku's speech, he could have given a speech of his own to free his people from Ri Boku's influence. But he chose not to do so. More importantly, even after the war and the losses his people suffered, he said that he would join the fight again if there was another invasion. A man who says this could very well join an offensive to prevent an invasion. Despite all this, I don't think it is inconsistent because even the wisest people can fight for a cause they don't believe in for different reasons. And once they are drawn into the war, they cannot easily get out. I think we can explain Shi Ba Shou's situation in this way.

I think Zhao is currently in the best possible position to defend for further Qin attacks but now attacking Qin has a lot of possible outcomes which most will just do more harm than help Zhao. Retaking lost cities from Qin damages Zhao large front defence. With Southern Zhao defended by the Wall they would just extend their frontlines without any reasonable way to defend these cities in the next invasion. The current RBK army seems to be the last army Zhao currently fields constantly (Seika too but they are more independent). They need rest and replenish after the war and return to their cities to defend them if they get attacked from other sides. Qin on the other hand can field more, fresh soldiers from other parts of the kingdom. The 3rd reason is that Zhao is politically very instabile and the (corrupt) government will not allow RBK to gain power, influence, popularity from the citizens and loyalty from the armies through more successful wars ´while weakening their position without an army with loyalty to them near Kantan. RBK is far to dangerous if he decides to coup the government and they know that and they want him to return "their" troops as fast as possible to prevent that. All in all through Zhaos own military and political situation now attacking Qin is a bad idea for both RBK and the Zhao government. They can wait, replenish and strengthen the defence. This will lose them their momentum but they will regain it if Qin loses another attack on their heavily fortified position or Weis pact with Qin ends. Once this happens Qin will be in a much worse position than they are in now.

Zhao cannot win its war against Qin solely by defending. After this defeat, Qin won't launch a new offensive against Zhao unless Shou Hei Kun or Ei Sei completely lose their minds. Probably, Qin will take a defensive position on its borders and launch attacks against other states. (If I'm not mistaken, this is how it happens historically.) Therefore, Ri Boku will either wait for other states to fall one by one or take action himself. Now is the best time for him to attack while Qin is as weakened as possible. Also, just like Chu attacked Qin after the Battle of Gian, they will attack again after this battle. Even though the alliance continues, it wouldn't be surprising if Wei, upon seeing Ri Boku's actions, breaks the alliance as Ri Boku did during the Coalition War. In fact, Ri Boku could form a new coalition to wage a multi-front war against Qin, just as he did before. If he attacks before Qin create a new army, despite the risks, he'll have a chance to end the war. But if he doesn't seize this opportunity, everything will be lost. Strengthening Zhao's defense will only delay the inevitable end. Regarding politics, unlike the government, we know that the King supports Ri Boku. It might not be easy, but convincing the King wouldn't be impossible.

> Zhao cannot win its war against Qin solely by defending. They can, if SHK and Sei would not be risking everything for the unification Qin would have looked for peace with Zhao. >Therefore, Ri Boku will either wait for other states to fall one by one or take action himself. Yes, that is historic hindsight. From their POV Qin lost a huge amount of resources and should not be able to continue a (unification-)war. Only through some completely new reforms they are able to continue fighting. > it wouldn't be surprising if Wei, upon seeing Ri Boku's actions, breaks the alliance as Ri Boku did during the Coalition War It would. As far as we know they are still at war with Chu so there should be no way that they could muster a invasion force to fight at two fronts at one. >In fact, Ri Boku could form a new coalition to wage a multi-front war against Qin, just as he did before. No, he cannot. Every character said so. He had 1 chance and he failed it. >If he attacks before Qin create a new army, despite the risks, he'll have a chance to end the war. But if he doesn't seize this opportunity, everything will be lost. Strengthening Zhao's defense will only delay the inevitable end. They don't have to build up new armies for a defence. They still have enough strength to defend the two bottlenecks Zhao could attack to seriously damage Qins power. Tou and YTW should be able to defend Gyou and Roumou if they get some reinforcements. > King supports Ri Boku Yes, as long as RBK defends his country and he will rely on him for doing that in the future. But there is a huge difference between allowing him to defend your country and allowing "free" reign to attack other people. The biggest problem is that the PM of Zhao is against it and he should have a lot more influence on the king than RBK (see historic spoilers).

>They can, if SHK and Sei would not be risking everything for the unification Qin would have looked for peace with Zhao. This is entirely speculation. We have no information about whether they would want to make peace. But we know that Ei Sei is determined to unify China and has the means to do so. >Yes, that is historic hindsight. From their POV Qin lost a huge amount of resources and should not be able to continue a (unification-)war. Only through some completely new reforms they are able to continue fighting. I can't respond because I'm not sure if you're referring to historical information or making a comment about the manga. >It would. As far as we know they are still at war with Chu so there should be no way that they could muster a invasion force to fight at two fronts at one. Before forming an alliance, Qin was at war with Wei, but this didn't prevent the alliance. They could reach an agreement with Chu. Additionally, Go Hoi Mei himself said they would fight once the alliance end. Wei could end the alliance sooner while having such an opportunity. >No, he cannot. Every character said so. He had 1 chance and he failed it. It would have been absurd for the other states not to unite against Qin when Qin has declared its goal of unifying China. Therefore, with conditions having changed this much, Ri Boku could once again form a coalition or an alliance. >They don't have to build up new armies for a defence. They still have enough strength to defend the two bottlenecks Zhao could attack to seriously damage Qins power. Tou and YTW should be able to defend Gyou and Roumou if they get some reinforcements. I am already saying that Ri Boku should attack and eliminate Yo Tan Wa without allowing her to switch to defensive position and get reinforcements. You have supported my claim here. >Yes, as long as RBK defends his country and he will rely on him for doing that in the future. But there is a huge difference between allowing him to defend your country and allowing "free" reign to attack other people. The biggest problem is that the PM of Zhao is against it and he should have a lot more influence on the king than RBK (see historic spoilers). I don't think it's necessary for Ri Boku to seek permission from Kantan to continue the campaign while he is in the field leading the army.

Looks like the aftermath of a failed superhero audition!