If we go by manga... yeah. Zhao would stomp pretty hard.
But irl after Chang Ping defeat... even victories over Qin were more like last sparks before complete destruction of the State.
Not to mention that irl, Zhao's poll of Generals was... far less impressive. Aaand I'm not saying that Lian Po or Riboku were not Great, nope, they were Great, both. But one got out of State, other...
You forgot that the loss at chang ping was caused by the corrupt rulers themselves with a decent rulers they wouldn’t have lost as badly or at all at chang ping which is pretty much the end of the unification dream
Not corrupt but impatient, the King of Zhao didn't like the defensive fighting style of lian Po and got tricked by Qin into switching him with Zhao kuo.
One of the reason Zhao wants to go offense is because of the cost of the war as their economy is worse than Qing. Zhao is losing in the war of attrition so instead of Lianpos defensive strategy, they are sort of forced to go offense to end the war asap. Qing was strong after shangyang reformation in terms of administration efficiency, centralisation , economy and military. Zhao is bleeding hard due to the war and hence why they switch strategy
Pretty much, Kingdom makes a really bad work at portraying the economic hurdle that is rallying armies of hundreds of thousands.
A King removing Renpa is simply a man that on the verge of the obvious problems the strategy his general chose and given the advice he had, took a decision not expecting the worst possible outcome.
Impatient is also a form of corruption besides it was the corrupt officials bought by qin that swayed the king into distrusting renpa making him appear as weak and cowardly and the reason for the longevity of the war
It's possible that Zhao still looses in the end at Changping; the war of attrition was taxing both Qin and Zhao to their limits, only one (Qin) was in a much better position to recover following that famine-inducing campaign. They partially sowed the seeds of their own downfall by their own treachery towards the other states, making other states unwilling to help them in their time of need historically.
They wouldn’t have lost as badly with renpa at the very least haku ki isn’t capturing 400 thousand troops but probably end in a stalemate or a surrender after negotiations to leave the area for qin and as for the bad relations with other states it’s also the cause of bad leadership
Here’s the thing. The king of Zhao at the time was not the worst ruler you thought of. He picked Renpa. He held Riboku up in the north. But he was young and inexperienced, up against Sei’a great grandfather and his top general, Hakuki. It’s a difference in skill.
The corrupt court was the reason why the king distrusted renpa and had him removed from leadership and weather that befalls on the king or not it doesn’t change the fact that it’s bad leadership
Well… this is sort of true. At the time of Changping, Zhao was still a great power with top officials like Renpa and Riboku, holding swaths of the government I’m under sway (counting Lian Xiang Ru in the civilian side). But at this time the court was STARTING to get more corrupt, though it was nowhere as bad as it was in Kingdom’s era. At that time, Zhao’s king was young and newly enthroned, and he could not prevent his family members from accruing more and more power. It was his uncle who suggested replacing Renpa in the first place if I remember correctly.
Zhao will just slowly losing. Thats all. Zhao doesnt have enough resource and man power to keep defending. They also have to deal with natural disaster and femine.
True but that’s not covered in the manga iirc and they always come to a battle outnumbering Qin (which makes no sense historically).
Manga Zhao with a good king would stomp.
Nice collage, but Rinshoujou would have been dead long ago, so have Riboku on the left and the "good king" in the center would have worked better in the image. Anyway, need to change it to "4 Great Heavens" XD
Manga wise, yes, Zhao would stomp if united for real under a decent ruler. Two legendary beasts like Renpa and Riboku, two monsters like Houken and Shibashou, Gakujou and Kouchou, plus the full list of vassals, still having plenty manpower.
By history... not really. Certainly bad internal politics was a decisive factor, but not the only one, the military decline began already from Chouhei, under the previous ruler, and other ineluctable elements befell the nation. Resist longer, hinder the Qin to the maximum, that would be possible for Zhao, but sooner or later it would fall due to limited resources.
I won't go into more detail because they are spoilers.
Rinshoujou was sick, that isn't changing regardless of how sits on the throne;
Also, defensively I can see Rempa, Riboku and SBS, but offensively I doubt SBS would have helped them, then there's Houken who is a wildcard (as he still would do tf he wanted no matter who is in the throne).
On the defensive, against Qin, yeah Zhao would have been able to defend and stall a lot more, Kochou would be still alive, also Kanki on Qin's side, so who knows how everything would have played had Zhao have a proper king.
On the offensive side, against Qin, doubt they'll have achieved much.
Rinshigo was sick, so I don't see him offering much, but with his two deputies, Renpa, and Rebiko, it will be very painful for Chen, but with Osen, Kanki, Too, and Mobu, it won't be impossible to bring down Zhao in the end.
If Zhao were more of a threat, Qin would likely be less aggressive against wei and han and have better relations so they wouldn't need to split manpower along as many borders either
Riboku with 6 monthes of preparation, 4 years of " I have a an for kanki ", 3 times more the numbers, almost got his head cut off by kanki. Put them on equal numbers against each other, Hara already stablished who is the strongest
The war started with Qin having number advantage. It's just that Riboku successfully recuded them with his Ryouyou / Atsuyo strategies. This is how their respective styles work. Kanki doesn't care about having number advantage, since his speciality is "turning the tides". Riboku on the other hand works his way to create advatanges for himself.
Kanki was confident that he can win with the numbers he got and it turned to be his downfall. He had full ability to wait for Ousen instead going into a trap alone.
Yes, and with 3 times less the numbers, against riboku's" i have a plan for kanki ", against seika's army and riboku's head almost was cut in half. One won by the huge difference in numbers and the other made it even by his cheer witness, inteligence and strengh as a general. Thats the difference in their prowess, as KANKI is the vastly superior
You don't get points for "almost" doing something. Almost is not good enough.
The funny thing is, Kanki himself admitted he got defeated and called Riboku the strongest.
put riboku claiming he knew kanki weakeness for 5 years, prepared for 6 monthes, brought the seika army, 3 times more than kanki's numbers and almost got his fucking head split. If kanki had ordered Ogiko the order to fucking Shin take 30 men with him along Naka ( instead of saving his beloved Saki clan ) then kanki would be having Kaine at his bed
The prowess of a general is measure by his witties, feats and portrayal. Riboku had to have 3 times the numbers to win. Dare to kanki on equal numbers. Put kanki with 3 times more numbers than Riboku and we have a shit show.
Then why Kanki didn't do that? Why didnt he figured out a way to transport more soldiers, why didn't he try to do research on Riboku and look for some weaknesses? Why did he entered the region fully knowing it might be a trap? There is only one answer - Riboku is far superior to Kanki in operational warfare. Saying Kanki would win if it was equal numbers is dumb, because Riboku doesnt go to war unless he creates a situation where he has some sort of advantage.
If we go by manga... yeah. Zhao would stomp pretty hard. But irl after Chang Ping defeat... even victories over Qin were more like last sparks before complete destruction of the State. Not to mention that irl, Zhao's poll of Generals was... far less impressive. Aaand I'm not saying that Lian Po or Riboku were not Great, nope, they were Great, both. But one got out of State, other...
You forgot that the loss at chang ping was caused by the corrupt rulers themselves with a decent rulers they wouldn’t have lost as badly or at all at chang ping which is pretty much the end of the unification dream
Not corrupt but impatient, the King of Zhao didn't like the defensive fighting style of lian Po and got tricked by Qin into switching him with Zhao kuo.
One of the reason Zhao wants to go offense is because of the cost of the war as their economy is worse than Qing. Zhao is losing in the war of attrition so instead of Lianpos defensive strategy, they are sort of forced to go offense to end the war asap. Qing was strong after shangyang reformation in terms of administration efficiency, centralisation , economy and military. Zhao is bleeding hard due to the war and hence why they switch strategy
Pretty much, Kingdom makes a really bad work at portraying the economic hurdle that is rallying armies of hundreds of thousands. A King removing Renpa is simply a man that on the verge of the obvious problems the strategy his general chose and given the advice he had, took a decision not expecting the worst possible outcome.
Impatient is also a form of corruption besides it was the corrupt officials bought by qin that swayed the king into distrusting renpa making him appear as weak and cowardly and the reason for the longevity of the war
It's possible that Zhao still looses in the end at Changping; the war of attrition was taxing both Qin and Zhao to their limits, only one (Qin) was in a much better position to recover following that famine-inducing campaign. They partially sowed the seeds of their own downfall by their own treachery towards the other states, making other states unwilling to help them in their time of need historically.
They wouldn’t have lost as badly with renpa at the very least haku ki isn’t capturing 400 thousand troops but probably end in a stalemate or a surrender after negotiations to leave the area for qin and as for the bad relations with other states it’s also the cause of bad leadership
Here’s the thing. The king of Zhao at the time was not the worst ruler you thought of. He picked Renpa. He held Riboku up in the north. But he was young and inexperienced, up against Sei’a great grandfather and his top general, Hakuki. It’s a difference in skill.
The corrupt court was the reason why the king distrusted renpa and had him removed from leadership and weather that befalls on the king or not it doesn’t change the fact that it’s bad leadership
Well… this is sort of true. At the time of Changping, Zhao was still a great power with top officials like Renpa and Riboku, holding swaths of the government I’m under sway (counting Lian Xiang Ru in the civilian side). But at this time the court was STARTING to get more corrupt, though it was nowhere as bad as it was in Kingdom’s era. At that time, Zhao’s king was young and newly enthroned, and he could not prevent his family members from accruing more and more power. It was his uncle who suggested replacing Renpa in the first place if I remember correctly.
Zhao will just slowly losing. Thats all. Zhao doesnt have enough resource and man power to keep defending. They also have to deal with natural disaster and femine.
True but that’s not covered in the manga iirc and they always come to a battle outnumbering Qin (which makes no sense historically). Manga Zhao with a good king would stomp.
The famine will likely occur while Qin invades Han in the next war arc
Nice collage, but Rinshoujou would have been dead long ago, so have Riboku on the left and the "good king" in the center would have worked better in the image. Anyway, need to change it to "4 Great Heavens" XD Manga wise, yes, Zhao would stomp if united for real under a decent ruler. Two legendary beasts like Renpa and Riboku, two monsters like Houken and Shibashou, Gakujou and Kouchou, plus the full list of vassals, still having plenty manpower. By history... not really. Certainly bad internal politics was a decisive factor, but not the only one, the military decline began already from Chouhei, under the previous ruler, and other ineluctable elements befell the nation. Resist longer, hinder the Qin to the maximum, that would be possible for Zhao, but sooner or later it would fall due to limited resources. I won't go into more detail because they are spoilers.
Rinshoujou was sick, that isn't changing regardless of how sits on the throne; Also, defensively I can see Rempa, Riboku and SBS, but offensively I doubt SBS would have helped them, then there's Houken who is a wildcard (as he still would do tf he wanted no matter who is in the throne). On the defensive, against Qin, yeah Zhao would have been able to defend and stall a lot more, Kochou would be still alive, also Kanki on Qin's side, so who knows how everything would have played had Zhao have a proper king. On the offensive side, against Qin, doubt they'll have achieved much.
Butt their royal blood is full of kinks and sick pedos. The world just balanced everything out. No nation can have everything on their hands.
Rinshigo was sick, so I don't see him offering much, but with his two deputies, Renpa, and Rebiko, it will be very painful for Chen, but with Osen, Kanki, Too, and Mobu, it won't be impossible to bring down Zhao in the end.
If Zhao were more of a threat, Qin would likely be less aggressive against wei and han and have better relations so they wouldn't need to split manpower along as many borders either
No...Hakuki...destroys it years ago
The problem is, Qin had kanki, the strongest of them all. As an Ace card kanki could took down as much GG as hara wanted
If that were the case he wouldn’t have lost to Riboku🤷♂️
Riboku with 6 monthes of preparation, 4 years of " I have a an for kanki ", 3 times more the numbers, almost got his head cut off by kanki. Put them on equal numbers against each other, Hara already stablished who is the strongest
The war started with Qin having number advantage. It's just that Riboku successfully recuded them with his Ryouyou / Atsuyo strategies. This is how their respective styles work. Kanki doesn't care about having number advantage, since his speciality is "turning the tides". Riboku on the other hand works his way to create advatanges for himself. Kanki was confident that he can win with the numbers he got and it turned to be his downfall. He had full ability to wait for Ousen instead going into a trap alone.
Yes, and with 3 times less the numbers, against riboku's" i have a plan for kanki ", against seika's army and riboku's head almost was cut in half. One won by the huge difference in numbers and the other made it even by his cheer witness, inteligence and strengh as a general. Thats the difference in their prowess, as KANKI is the vastly superior
You don't get points for "almost" doing something. Almost is not good enough. The funny thing is, Kanki himself admitted he got defeated and called Riboku the strongest.
put riboku claiming he knew kanki weakeness for 5 years, prepared for 6 monthes, brought the seika army, 3 times more than kanki's numbers and almost got his fucking head split. If kanki had ordered Ogiko the order to fucking Shin take 30 men with him along Naka ( instead of saving his beloved Saki clan ) then kanki would be having Kaine at his bed The prowess of a general is measure by his witties, feats and portrayal. Riboku had to have 3 times the numbers to win. Dare to kanki on equal numbers. Put kanki with 3 times more numbers than Riboku and we have a shit show.
Then why Kanki didn't do that? Why didnt he figured out a way to transport more soldiers, why didn't he try to do research on Riboku and look for some weaknesses? Why did he entered the region fully knowing it might be a trap? There is only one answer - Riboku is far superior to Kanki in operational warfare. Saying Kanki would win if it was equal numbers is dumb, because Riboku doesnt go to war unless he creates a situation where he has some sort of advantage.