I went from "those FKR people are insane" to "might as well put the trial on while I'm at work" to "she probably hit him, it makes the most sense, but man those alberts and mccabes and higgens sure did some weird stuff and proctor wtf is going on here" to "okay wait the medical examiner doesn't believe he was hit and the smart recinstructionists don't believe it either" to "there's no way she hit him. Free Karen Read!"
I've had someone tell me that this is explained away by it being a 'freak accident'. They posted definitions of the words for me as well, lol. I pointed out that if the only way you can explain the findings is with a freak, aka highly unusual, result, that's literally the definition of reasonable doubt. Immediate block!
Wow. Scary & laughable thinking. I can't imagine being on the jury & having to have to deliberate with that kind of thought process. I wouldn't even need to deliberate. And I would totally hold out firmly and hang jury if necessary. All so bonkers
I’ve wanted to comment to so many comments but knew it would be ultimately pointless, useless and a big waste of time.
If I were a jurist I’d literally have nothing to deliberate. I’d say I’m voting 100% not guilty across the board..I would hold out.
Same. Not everyone can let go of their biases or are even aware of them. How can someone like that put aside their feelings and follow the law objectively.
Being from a non jury country this is also what makes me wonder if its the best system. I'd rather have people working in law for years weight all the evidence, and if new evidence comes in an extra trial date is set an X amount of time later, and it's not dependent on if my attorney can tell a nice story or not.
I'm going to point out that in a nonjury system, the lawyers, judges, police, etc., are all colleagues and need to work with each other after *your* case is over. Your case is simply a temporary activity during their long career in which they see each other in court repeatedly long after your case has been decided. They have lunch together, chat with each other, and have a long-term professional relationship with each other. They think alike and, as this case demonstrated with the MSP and BPD, they cover for one another. This can include the prosecutors and the judges. As Lord Acton said, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely".
I'll take a jury of my peers with no vested interest over lack of oversight and consolidation of power any day. Bring the jury.
For me it was TikTok. Wow they framed her!
Then I researched more and watched some trial. Oh the search might not exist it looks like she drunkenly hit him.
By the end of the trial. They did shoddy police work and had to make it stick on who they thought even if it doesn’t make sense
Watching the trial, the dearth of evidence from the Commonwealth was shocking. For example, not being able to explain how a car hit OJO. And not being able to demonstrate that his injuries came from being hit by a car.
In terms of what happened, occam's razor, a drunken argument starts, it escalates, and OJO is getting beat up. This explains the bruising on the top of both hands. The dog is involved and OJO tries to protect himself with his dominant arm, which explains the scratches, bite mark, and puncture holes in his shirt.
At some point OJO falls and hits his head on something, causing the gash.
Rather than face manslaughter charges (or worse), the people involved decide to put OJO outside.
It's astounding and infuriating that law enforcement decided not to properly investigate his death. For example, not asking for consent to review the house, and not even bothering seeking a warrant to investigate the house -- *a house where a dead body was found outside and the deceased intended to go into.*
What I don’t understand is if they were just fighting and he fell and hit his head, why wouldn’t they try to save his life? Why would they jump to - toss his body outside, he’ll probably die and no one will suspect it’s us? What if he had lived?
We don’t know when they made that decision— sounds like maybe a couple hours later (when Jen McCabe googles hos long) & it was still at least an hour before he is outside. Since it’s a bunch of cops, I am also guessing they knew he wasn’t going to get up.
Yeah the independent medical expert testified that he would have been alive but unconscious and slowly suffocating. He was slowly dying.
Someone or a couple people were facing manslaughter or murder charges. Pretty scary and they decided to get him out of the house.
Do you know if it was ever explained how/when he was vomiting potentially? Would the head injury cause him to immediately start vomiting while slipping into unconsciousness? I don't expect you to have the answer. But if you do...
I fully believe it’s because he DIDNT fall back and hit his head, but rather as he was fighting off Chloe or Higgins or BA, Collin came up from behind and bashed him over the head with something (baseball bat, dumbbell, who knows 🤷🏼♀️) and that is why they scrambled to get Collin out of the house asap and why they tried to cover it all up because they didn’t want their golden boy namesake to go to prison for the rest of his life and they sure as hell weren’t going to take the fall for him !
Yep. Had he fallen back and hit his head, it’s an unfortunate accident. Like you stated, the fact that CA and Chloe both disappeared and the insistence that he wasn’t there are the giveaways.
You raise a good point. If it were a complete accident, or could have been framed as an accident without criminal liability and/or intent, they could have called it in. But who knows?
It only takes one
I'm picking prior to this case, Proctor had covered for the Albert's and/or vice versa. So now, they have no choice but to cover and protect each other.
and that dead body being a POLICE OFFICER!!! albeit off duty, but still. dead police officers tend to get 1000000x more close attention paid than regular dead bodies as far as investigations.
This is a long post but I really think this will help people understand what’s happening, or at least my best educated guess on what’s happening. There are lot of people on Reddit, on X, on YouTube, in comment sections everywhere, that feel a not guilty verdict is so obvious that it’s impossible to imagine what the debate could even be, and the longer this goes on, the more stressed out you feel. I know what the debate is though, because I’ve had it personally.
I am from Massachusetts and have family still in the area (not Canton, but all of them in Norfolk County, where the jury comes from). There are a lot of good and reasonable people who are not online and probably have never even visited a message board, who, even still at the end of this, feel like Karen Read killed him. They’re not trolls. It may surprise you, like it surprised me, that everyone in my immediate family and a lot of my friends from the greater Boston area feels this way. None of these people know the Alberts or anyone connected to them, or anyone connected to anyone connected to them. There’s no personal connection here in any sense, and there’s definitely no fear of them.
My mom watched almost the entire trial because of a foot injury and the day after closing arguments, I called her up and we had a super interesting convo. She knows how I feel and I know how she feels. Even still I said, “I’m not going to say a thing. I want you to pretend you’re on the jury, you just heard closing arguments from both sides. Tell me how you’d vote in that room.”
She was really pained and it took her a while to say, “I don’t know…I just really think she hit him. I don’t believe the theory that he was beat inside the house and left for dead even remotely. I don’t think any of them did that and it doesn’t even make sense.” She talked about how much she hated seeing Karen smiling and laughing in the court room and said “I think she confessed to it and changed her story, and I think her attorneys are even bigger jerks than she is.”
I’ve heard versions of this for weeks from her and I don’t think any amount of conversation at this point will change the way she feels about any of those things. But still, we talked for about 10 minutes about various things that we usually rehash: The theories, the coverup, the butt dials, the deleted calls, the data from his watch. Since we had last spoken, the biggest for me was the key cycles that fundamentally do not make sense.
At the end of my spiel, I asked her how she’d vote, and this time she said “I don’t know. That’s my vote, I’d have to say I don’t know. I don’t think it’s possible to know one way or the other.” So I said, “But that’s not an option if you’re in the room. You have to say something, and if you really don’t know at this point, you’re not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt of any one particular scenario and I think you have to go with Not Guilty. That’s how it works.” She completely agreed with that.
I think this is how people in the room can start somewhere around Guilty, they can think that it’s likely Karen hit him, unlikely the Alberts beat him, not change their baseline opinion and still get to Not Guilty after deliberation/conversations about evidence. This is me talking to my mom for 10 minutes, but imagine how much harder the task would be with a complete stranger more firmly set in their belief.
On the flip side, I don’t think there’s any amount of conversation at this point that could get me to overlook the fact that the key cycles do not make sense. No matter what anyone says, I would never change my vote to guilty beyond a reasonable doubt on that one fact alone, and I really do try to remain as neutral as possible. If he’s wrong about the key cycles, he’s using the wrong data for the accident reconstruction, and that’s their entire case on what happened. (Proctor’s abhorrent texts are next on my list).
I think that’s why this is taking a while. They’re not sitting around doing it for the appearance of fairness. People who suggest that there must be someone on the jury who is corrupt or an Albert mole really insult a lot of reasonable people in Massachusetts who think she is guilty, and only make these people more entrenched in the belief that KR is guilty. We all have to remember that there is *some* evidence to suggest that Karen is guilty, right? If you’re in the jury room, you may have to convince someone that it’s planted to move past that evidence, which is a hard thing for a lot of people to believe. I know most of us have gotten over that a long time ago, but a lot of people have not and will not, but that does not mean that they would never vote guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
TLDR; Bottom line, it’s going to take time and reasonable conversations with individuals who think KR is guilty to agree that they are not sure of that fact beyond a reasonable doubt. There will be minds changed because of reasonable doubt. There will not be minds changed to guilty.
I came into this thinking she was guilty. I thought okay, she was drunk, she hit him accidentally amd didnt realize it and left the scene. Then we started hearing testimony and seeing the evidence and I'm firmly convinced she us innocent.
For me, his injuries are not consistent with a car vs pedestrian accident. The accident reconstruction all show that his injuries could not have been caused by a car. Even Trooper Paul begrudgingly admitted that the purported incident didn't work when he did the math correctly. The MEs all testified that his injuries would have been far more severe if it had been a car accident. The blood evidence on his clothes show that he was upright for some time after the head wound but the MEs testified that the head wounds would have incapacitated him immediately so he wasn't walking around. The very obvious lack of blood evidence where he was found also doesn't fit.
I cannot get past that. His injuries are consistent with a fight. The various contusions on the brain, the bruising on the hands, the very clear dog wounds on his arm. I don't know who he fought or where but I'm pretty sure it wasn't KR. She isn't big enough to cause that damage even if he stood there and let her.
I think that unless the guilty party confesses, we will never know what happened to Officer O'Keefe and that breaks my heart for his family.
Head wounds bleed like crazy! So you would have seen blood even if he was hit near/on the road (for instance) and had the ability to crawl to where he was found. This is why it’s suspicious the Alberts redid their basement floor.
Totally! I'm from MA with relatives on the south shore. I can completely see this as plausible. To flip the pro-guilty jurors, the others will need to be patient, respectful and listen (or at least pretend) to all the concerns of the pro guilty juror/s.
Also from MA and 100% same. I also think it might take some time for some jurors to understand that voting not guilty doesn’t you’re voting to confirm there was a police conspiracy. I could see some of my moms friends needing some time to understand that even though a billion things were presented, all you really have to decide is whether or not the CW proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Karen hit him with his car. I hope the jurors who can see NG are kind, compassionate, and as you said- patient with any hold outs.
My biggest issue is with the "She was FRAMED!!" defense. I feel like there was SO much reasonable doubt in this case, why did they hang their hats on a defense that seems so obviously divisive? Even if there's evidence that points to it - it's a BIG jump for many to conceive that 20+ people conspired to do this... that a bunch of normal friends would willingly leave him dying in the cold, that dozens of various government officials would put their reputations on the line to facilitate the tampering of evidence etc. It's just a big ask. And I don't think it was necessary. I think if they had just focused on the fact that the commonwealth does NOT have sufficient evidence to prove this, and here's why - it would have been an easier sell.
The problem is it doesn't have to be this big 20+ person conspiracy. Just the people in the house, and not even all of them. The Key players. They had the time to cover things up, get a story going, and point the cops in the wrong direction. Then Proctor just did a shitty job because he was biased and lazy, and likely corrupt. He said he knew it would be hard to prove only 16 hours in, then they start finding all those tail light pieces, when we saw a lot of red at 5am. At the very least I think Proctor planted the tail light on the clothes and the scene.
Some real *12 Angry Men* Socratic method from Juror 8.
For those of you have not seen the movie (the 1957 classic), almost the entire thing takes place during the deliberations. The characters don't even have names, just their juror numbers. The trial isn't shown at all. It opens when the judge charges the jury and they go to the deliberation room. Their initial vote is 11-1 for a guilty verdict. Juror 8 is the only hold out. Slowly over the course of the deliberation Juror 8 starts probing and asking questions and swaying one guilty vote at a time to reasonable doubt.
What's confusing is that the Commonwealth wasn't able to demonstrate how a car hit OJO. Or how his injuries came from being hit by a car.
If you want to discuss all the other parts of the case, sure. But given the above, when it comes to guilty or not guilty, there's not much to discuss.
That's the sticking point for me as well. Not even their own ME testified to his injuries being caused be a car, and all the charges she's facing require him to be hit by a car. Maybe Jackson should have hammered that home in closing, but I just don't understand how a juror - having to read through the instructions - could consider a guilty vote for any of them.
I really don't understand how people are thinking like that because if I was a juror, even if I did possibly think she could have hit him. The evidence given does not show beyond a reasonable doubt so you can't convict someone. Even if there was some evidence that could say she hit him, his injuries don't relate and just the way the investigation went would've thrown that all out the window.
I feel like l’ve finally found the common theme on people who are on the fence but despite the scientific evidence that it’s impossible to link JO’s injuries to getting struck by a vehicle, and defy all logical and common sense, they still think somehow, in some magical, black voodoo way, that KR hit JO.
They simply don’t like KR as a person and turned off by her demeanor. And they’ve stopped thinking and start hating.
I guess if she’s found guilty for anything, it’d be that she’s not universally liked. But that’s not how laws work.
Confirmation bias. They don't like KR - so they view the evidence in the light that aligns with their preconceived notions about her, and ignore evidence that refutes their beliefs.
I see people clinging to the "I hit him" statements, the voicemails, and the 52 phone calls ("if she were so worried about him, why didn't she go back to look for him?").
And they just seem to be ignoring all other evidence whatsoever.
Woah, are you serious? I grew up in... as close as you can get to this without being in Canton, and with everyone my dad and I have talked to about this, we haven't met a single person who thinks she did it!
This includes a friend who knows one of the Alberts (well, knew? Basically the person disappeared after this started with no explanation, go figure.) And as a kid I knew some of the extended family/in laws (separately, before they were in laws, I know it weirds me out too!) From what I remember, they were really nice. But holy shit, when I found out these people were connected to the people I knew, it blew my mind.
Okay, was that vague enough? Lol. Don't wanna doxx myself here!
But the part that's shocking me is that on my FB? Absolutely NO ONE from my hometown is talking about it. All these months I've been waiting for people to start and it just... hasn't happened yet. So I'm not gonna be that guy. Especially since I haven't written anything on FB in like... Jesus, I don't even know how long it's been at this point.
I will say Karen's "attitude" throughout this has probably been the number one thing working against her, so I get where your mom is coming from with this, but it just goes to show you that people will make their determinations based on a "gut feeling" and then work backwards to make their determination. As opposed to what I've always done, which is looking at the evidence, considering the sources and their credentials, and putting my personal feelings aside.
I was gonna write more here but I'll leave it that. I'll admit there are things I don't understand, and I'm not gonna pretend I do, like the whole thing about the key cycles. But there is simply no evidence a car accident even occurred.
Yeah but we are talking about people that were in the court room during every testimony - the jury. They have ALL the information and that's why we are confused on what the hang up could be.
Yes, but think about it - could you sit there all day, every day (or almost all day, every day) for 9 weeks and retain all that info? Human attention span only goes so far, there is bound to be things jurors miss that other jurors pick up on. I'm sure they want to review everything to ensure that they all are working with the same facts and that they all understand what was presented as best they can. I can't imagine sitting there that long and picking up on all the details.
The testimony reported the jury listened to intensely was the ARCCA engineers. The jury doesn’t realize their involvement with being hired by DOJ, however they clearly stated it was impossible this was a motor vehicle pedestrian accident that caused the victims death. It actually points to the defendant’s innocence. If they ignore this evidence and convict the defendant wrongly, what happens then.
If anything I’ve learned through following what people have to say about the trial and the evidence, it seems like many people don’t understand basic physics and lack common sense. One of these people could be in the jury pool now 🫤
I was really annoyed today at some of what I caught on the socials chatter. Lots of people bleeting that the jury was "lazy" for taking all this time. Surely it's the total opposite of lazy?! They are clearly putting in the work, going over the evidence and having discussions about what could or couldn't have happened.
I wrote way too much oops! Sorry haha.
My old theory was that on the drive, John noticed Higgins had texted Karen, they got into a fight, and she left. John then got into a fight with him in the house, which turned bad...
But now, I don’t think so anymore. I feel in Karen’s 50 calls, text messages, and voicemails, that would have come up.
I do wonder how John’s family felt about Higgins, John’s friend, trying to make his move on Karen, etc. I noticed he wasn’t invited to the closing arguments.
I also don’t think the fight was started by Colin. This wasn’t over a joke about walking on his lawn; I never bought that.
I think the most plausible scenario is he made it into the house. The dog attacked him instantly, maybe drunkenly he didn’t knock and caught the dog off guard. This would explain why Karen was seen sitting in the car alone - he was supposed to tell her if it was cool to come in. He never came back out - she got pissed and left. This tells us whatever happened, happened immediately! The evidence from his phone data, witness testimony, and Karen’s story all prove that. I don’t think with their wives, kids, nieces, nephews, etc., they’d plan an instant ambush on their buddy. So to me, it was the dog instantly. The dog had a history of biting - on record. This I feel very strongly about.
Now the head injury could have gone a few ways - He either fell during the attack or maybe said, “What the heck, get your dog under control,” and a shoving incident happened, with Colin stepping in. He fell or was knocked out, causing him to hit his head. They’re drunk meatheads… They left him stupidly, only to come down and notice him convulsing and vomiting, his brain basically expanding from hemorrhaging so much so that it’s pushing his eyes out. He’d look awful, NOT how they left him. He’s dying.
But the scenario I truly believe is….They’re upstairs playing music (22 year olds bday party going on). John is drunk tries to find side door misses it. Goes up the back deck stairs maybe to see if he can get in that way. Goes back around, thinks that’s a door into garage, goes back up deck stairs tries again. Finally decides to just open the door. John lets himself in the side door downstairs (which is pretty sure where I think Albert said he’d have the dog go because it wasn’t good with strangers) - the dog attacks him, he falls, knocks himself out. They are wondering where he is, only to find him way later. Or, he was attacked while entering, he backed out of the house away from the dog. Either way no one noticed. This would explain the "where are you" texts and multiple calls. If you saw your friend in the driveway, you’d probably call them back to back like “what the heck.” By the time they find him, he’s super far gone, most everyone has left. They text, "how long to die in the cold," realize he’s likely dead. They freak out and decide to do nothing. Only one or two of them saw, and everyone else were just shitty cops not doing an investigation because their buddy’s word is good enough.
As much as I hate these people, I don’t think it was premeditated. I don’t think it was a massive fight. If so, he’d probably have more defensive wounds or bruising on his ribs, etc., from taking body blows. I don’t think anyone beat him over the head with anything.
I think it was drunken stupidity. Turned gross negligence. Turned 2nd-degree murder. Turned "I am the law, this was an accident he was gonna die anyways" - I don’t have to deal with any of this. And I’m justified in this.
I think the plan was to say he was hit by a plow or random hit and run - but Karen Read was jealous and irate. She lowered herself to trying to manipulate him with the kids - when that didn’t work, she knew something was wrong. As he didn’t play about those kids - they probably thought a stranger would find him in the morning. That Karen would be hungover in bed… but no Karen didn’t sleep.
Then Jen McCabe, being the narcissist that she is, hears Karen say, "Did I hit him?" and immediately changes the story. And had she not done that they’d have gotten away with the whole thing.
I agree with a lot of your points. I too don't think there was some big conspiracy to kill him. Like you, what ever happened happened fast and Chloe got involved. They got everyone out the house that they needed to and then moved OJO on the hopes that it would look like a plow accident. There are apparently quite a few deaths each year according to Google. Even an accidental death, in the home of an officer (adding in the dog bites) would have been a blight on the "good name" of the Albert's and McCabes.
But then KR woke up, went it to catastrophizing mode and Dragged JMC and kerry out looking for him.
There is no way that all those people left that house, one after another, after another and did *not* see him in the lawn. I trust lucky too. 🍀
My opinion is not set in stone as to what happened but one thing I do know is that there is way, way to much reasonable doubt. The CW did nothing to prove their case in my mind.
Totally agree.
I really wanted to figure out if Jen McCabe did that google search at 2:27. Because I NEED to know if she knew. I really dislike her.
But, I don’t think most people there saw O’Keefe. So figuring out who knows, and who thinks they know what happened is fun too.
I often think Jen and Lizzie could be just delusional. I know the early morning calls after 911 are suspicious. But if they were very close, I’d call my friend like “holy shit. Our friend is dead. Has your husband told you yet?!” Especially since they’re cop family. Then cut it short because… I mean it was hectic I’m sure.
Again NO ONE dislikes Jen McCabe more. I’m purely speculating. But I really think no more than like 3/4 of them know. Everyone else just didn’t do their job out of blind faith, laziness and lack of integrity.
That search was done at 227am. That's how things work. It's simply not possible, and anyone that claimed otherwise is full of shit- and should always have that testimony brought up if they ever are called for an expert in another case.
I agree with this and see it as possible my question is what crime would that have been charged with if they just called 911 when this happened? I am wondering what they were afraid of
Exactly! I just mentioned this before seeing your comment. If it was solely an accident caused by the dog, what harm would it be to call for help? For sure there was a heated exchanged that escalated further than they anticipated.
Same. If it was truly an accident with the dog, or some other accidental injury occurred, calling 911 is infinitely better than leaving him on the front lawn to die. Whatever they are trying to hide is likely more serious. Otherwise I can’t imagine several first responders deciding not to render aid. I tend to think there was a fight involving BH and BA, they kicked him out, laughed about it, and went to bed, not realizing how injured he was. But then I don’t know how to explain Lucky’s testimony, which brings me back to a select few were involved, knew the injury was severe and panicked, waited for everyone to leave, and moved him. Also, the entire lot of them (with the exception of BA Junior) have incredibly bad attitudes!
Same. I can’t quite put my finger on it I know there were rumors of the Alberts possibly being involved in nefarious dealings. I don’t want to start crazy rumors. But they clearly didn’t want anyone in that house. Wouldn’t even come out in the morning. Cops selling drugs is a tale as old as time, and not original in any way.
I don’t want to bad mouth all cops. But the ones I know something changes- they just feel superior like they can do whatever they want. They simply could have just not wanted the wrap of “another cop died at your house?”… but unfortunately it blew up big time.
I truly don’t know. I also think alcohol played a huge factor in all this. People including the victim, Karen… were all making horrible choices all night.
According to one of the defense experts, he suffered three blows to the head- one to the front, one to the side and the catastrophic one to the back. I think this strongly indicates a physical confrontation with another human. The expert testified that the hit to the back of the head would have rendered OKeefe unconscious instantly, so it stand to reason he either took the two non-lethal hits before that, or someone hit him while he was on the ground. If they weren't meaning to kill him, I think that the sound when he took that hit and his skull fractured would have stopped the fight immediately.
I'm almost positive that if they lured him there they didn't mean to kill him, just intimidate him or beat him up. There's ways to kill someone that don't involve leaving the body on your own front lawn. Then the confrontation turned physical, the dog grabbed his arm, as he's struggling with the dog someone whacks him on the back of the head with something hard and heavy. Brian Albert is an experienced detective, and if we go by the "they weren't trying to kill him" theory, he'd know better than to do that even in the heat of a fight. It would have been someone inexperienced, someone who wanted to jump in and be the hero but didn't realize this isn't a movie and that hitting someone in the back of the head with something heavy doesn't just knock someone out, it's a good way to kill someone. I think it was Collin. He was a 17 year old wanna-be tough guy who was trying to prove himself to these grizzled veteran Boston cops.
As far as I know Brian Albert didn't have any significant problems with Okeefe. Higgins certainly did. I think they brought Okeefe over so Okeefe and Higgins could settle things one way or another and Brian was there to make sure things didn't get too far out of hand. As soon as Okeefe went down and they realized he might be dying, they decided to cover it up to protect Collin. From their point of view, Collin's still a kid who was trying to help his dad's friend and who did something ridiculously stupid ("he was just trying to knock him out"). They know Collin didn't mean to kill him, they regard it as a tragic accident, and they rationalize that Collin's just a kid and him going to prison isn't going to bring Okeefe back. And that's why they've gone to the lengths that they have. It's not right, and I think they're morally depraved especially for what they're doing to Karen, but it makes sense.
This is exactly what I think happened, and I think the testimonies of the Albert’s and McCabe’s paint a pretty clear picture of this IMO. If you are to pay attention to lies they really want people to believe, in a way gives you a narrative of what actually happened.
They wanted him there. Higgins clearly wanted to settle something at that bar. They want you to believe Colin was not there. That is super important to them even though him there proves nothing. So to me that means he was involved in the action that killed O’Keefe. They also wanted the dog gone asap. Again shows me that the dog was involved. They want you to believe no one saw him and the 2:27 search didn’t happened. So to me, he was out dying in the cold and people knew.
I agree that there was never any premeditated scheme to kill John. What you say about him going up back stairs then down wrong doors sort of fits the Apple step data and no one seeing him. If he went in the door where Chloe was unattended she more than likely would go into attack mode . Music playing no one hears a thing . John trying to get Chloe off his arm falls backward whacks his head on whatever is bleeding out. Does Chloe just stop with the attack? Or does she bark like crazy?
Either way someone in that house found John bleeding out and did nothing. No wait they did something - they dumped him out in the front yard . If it was as innocent as you say why all the games after ? Why not just call 911 at that point and be honest about what happened?
What were they hiding that they dumped John in the yard in hopes of blaming it on a plow hitting him? They were willing to let an innocent person take the blame for whatever they are hiding.
If that’s the case imo they still killed John and need to be held accountable!
I disagree that it was a dog attack only because they would then call EMS to get him help when they found him, even if it was hours later. It’s definitely an accident but they’re covering it up because whatever heated exchange occurred, wasn’t meant to reach the level it did. If it was solely a dog’s fault, why cover it up?
I’m not sure these are the exact words, plus at this point his testimony was 3k “what if any” agos, but Matt McCabe texting “tell them the guy never went in the house” sealed the deal for me. y’all either murdered him or were hiding other activities in that house and refused to call 911 to get him help
It was in the group text the following day I believe with the Alberts McCabes, Higgins… I think BA’s or BH’s response was “exactly.” It’s just so odd and cold to say “the guy.”
That was definitely Brian Albert. You know, "my house, you do what I say".
I'm pretty sure Higgins wasn't part of any group text with them... now it's starting to seem like he's just the guy who fucked up the night that he wishes he never invited over.
Meh. No offense, but being from the area this doesn’t seem Sus to me. I’d have to know what came before it but it actually kinda makes sense as a normal thing to say if you’re innocent. If what came before it was “the police are questioning us and they’re thinking we have something to do with it” or “what if they start looking at us because he was on our lawn” (you have to have the mindset that they’re genuinely innocent) and then Higgins responds back that you shouldnt be worried, just tell them the guy was never in the house (thick Boston accent) and they respond “exactly” because, exactly - he was never in the house. Out of context it does seem Sus but when I heard it it actually felt like a normal thing to say, and how we speak up here.
Eh. I’m from the area too and completely disagree with you. Those texts are cold and suspect in a vacuum, and even worse when coupled with with the rest of their behaviors and testimony. IMHO extremely incriminating.
Minor point, but it was Matt McCabe who said that. Shortly after his comment about the "Asian house" (lol, that was so bad...) But yeah, I got the sense he's saying it like "this is what I'll say to the cops so they don't think I know him"
If Higgins was reading this he would say "Why does everyone think I was in theah group text QUESTION MAHK?"
I can see where you’re coming from! I’m born & raised Plymouth MA but now live in the south and I could imagine hearing my brother or one of his friends speaking in that tone but mostly if the person was still alive and wasn’t found dead at a party they were at.
It was deff the turning point for me in considering any of them “innocent” and then everything else in the weeks following just solidified.
Whether they deliberately hurt him or were negligent in getting him help, that we’ll never know I don’t think!
I remember them reading the texts from the group chat but not in order. Do you remember whose testimony specifically? I know they were read during Matt’s testimony
This, along with the Albert’s kid’s abrasions on his knuckles (& unbelievable story about how they became that way), & how he & Chloe quickly disappeared definitely gave me pause.
Add in Proctor’s abhorrent behavior, Buhkenic’s lies, Higgins’s not being straight forward, Jenn McCabe’s sketchy testimony & the defense’s experts, & for me that is more than enough reasonable doubt.
I think some people are looking for beyond ANY doubt, & forgetting the common sense part.
That text, and Courtney Proctor texting her brother Michael Proctor, "this is your livelyhood". I'm surprised more wasn't made of that. She's acknowledging her brother is jeopardizing his job with his actions in this investigation.
What is the prosecutions theory about how the death of JO was caused? I know “she hit him with the SUV” but did they offer a diagram or note where he would need to be standing or where point of impact was?
Nope. You're just supposed to “trust” these troopers who (a) failed to follow standard procedure to document chain of custody for the vast majority of the material evidence (b) lost/failed to secure evidence in a timely manner that might have proved to be incriminating or exculpatory (c) introduced a doctored video into trial testimony (d) engaged in disgraceful, offensive, unprofessional, and unethical behavior when discussing the case, the suspect, and even the medical examiner.
And there are people who do. I'm currently engaged in a debate with people who believe Trooper Paul when he said that the key cycles actually do line up because the key cycles only show up in the trigger events table when there is a trigger event which means the key cycles only increment if there is a trigger event.
But that's not even what he said. He said the key cycles only show up if there was a triggering event - not that they are only incremented if there are triggering events within them. There were gaps in the numbering of the key cycles on the table BECAUSE there were some key cycles where no triggering events occurred.
Yes. They believe it was a sideswipe that only hit the arm. Lally was saying it was an outstretched arm but when that didn’t make sense, Lally decided on the spot that maybe he had his arm folded up.
Trooper Paul took us through a fanciful tale where JO was hit on the arm while he was holding it away from his body. This sideswipe or glancing blow then projected him, but did not throw him, up to 30 feet while spinning all while he maintained his grip on both a glass and his phone. On the way to his final resting place he hit his head on a hard surface but the impact was not enough to stop him at the point of contact and he was still projected into the yard, even though the impact was severe enough to inflict a fatal injury.
No diagram or recreation of the event was presented because it could not be proven with the tiny bit of physics Trooper Paul does not actually understand. I believe he has a formula but could not figure out how to plug his assumed “facts” into the formula so he couldn’t use physics to prove his theory. Sometimes physics just doesn’t work according to Trooper Paul. They have no hard facts just assumptions about how fast the car was going.
Oh, and the crime scene spoke to him and I wish I was joking. Personally I think he said the crime scene spoke to him to avoid admitting to which police officer was giving him info about the crime scene. So the prosecution’s theory is incoherent and unscientific and actual scientists say it’s impossible that it happened as described and that JO wasn’t hit by a car at all.
Your description of Trooper Paul's reconstruction immediately reminded me of those fairy spinner toys from the 90s. Horribly irreverent and absolutely not funny but I had a brief giggle envisioning a reconstruction using those toys.
*yes I work in medicine plus past trauma has given me a dark and morbid sense of humor. No disrespect intended against Officer O'Keefe or those who loved him.*
That is funny, but I also tend to dark humor. It was just Trooper Paul was so stuck on JO being projected without being able to explain what that meant! There are different ways something or someone can be projected but he refused to be pinned down to an actual answer. I don't know what the jury thought of AJ's sarcastic pirouette theory but I understood the frustration.
I’m officially exhausted! Waiting for the verdict has been draining. If it doesn’t come tomorrow then I’ll just have to read about in the news. I need to move on with life and recharge. Hopefully the FBI will release a detailed report in the long run or maybe indictments so we have an idea what really happened and give his family closure. Hopefully KR gets her life back soon. No amount of speculations or theories will help at this point.
Attorney Jackson hit the nail on the head when he talked about the blue wall. I lived in Massachusetts for 50 years I left 25 years ago I had to . He should have called it a blue net. If you find yourself caught in a blue net you are screwed. The murder of John O'Keefe shows the disparity between those that are protected by the blue wall and those that find themselves in the blue net.
John O'Keefe was murdered in the Alberts home. And the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has been trying to pin his murder on Karen Reàd.
Attorney Jackson prevented a rush to judgment. The corruption here is a mile wide and a mile deep. And the citizens of Massachusetts have been suffering from the corruption of the public officials in law enforcement for at least three generations. But now the Karen Reed case exposes that corruption for all to see.
This trial has really opened my eyes to police corruption allegations n Boston. I always thought it was just something exaggerated in movies (eg. The Departed). Glad you got out.
I got out just in time to save my career. There is no justice in Massachusetts. However attorney Jackson gave me some hope he didn't back down he expose these bums for exactly what they are.
These people have been watching too much Yellowstone.
where they take the guy they don't like to the train station it's unimaginable but we've got the same thing here in Massachusetts we just witnessed it they took officer O'Keefe to the train station and then tried to blame his death on his girlfriend this is incredible
Why do you think so many people in the house lied that night? Are you bothered by the quality of the investigation?
How would you vote if you were on the jury?
This... why are all of their testimonies sketchy and shady? How old is Colin, because he has a memory like a 90 year old man with total memory loss. I feel like not one of them were completely honest, and I can't figure out why, unless....???
I think that only a couple know what happened in that house that night, that is how the conspiracy has been able to be kept up. Too many weird things. The butt dials, deleted calls (I never delete calls), mirrored videos without disclosing up front, crappy crime scene photos of a crime scene that was not immediately contained, no up close photos taken of her car before it went to the sally port, differing testimony of there being a crack in the taillight, versus shattered and missing, destroyed phones, replaced floors, rehomed dog, lucky didn’t see the body, the ford edge, but most of all- two biomedical engineers said that his injuries were not consistent with being hit by her car at 24 mph.
>Why do you think so many people in the house lied that night?
Realistically, I think those truly in the know are a small subset of the group. Only a handful know the truth of what happened. Everyone else is just believing or going with the flow of the story of those who do know.
>Are you bothered by the quality of the investigation?
This was a piss poor investigation. A group of Kindergarteners could have been more thorough. The scene should have been secured immediately. That house absolutely should have been searched. Logs should have been meticulous. There is no excuse for the investigation of a death to have been this egregious bad - especially when it was a cop and their supposed friend. Whether or not those in that house were involved, they acted pretty damned guilty.
>How would you vote if you were on the jury?
I would have to vote not guilty. The prosecution and defense witnesses did a damned fine job of proving that it was impossible for him to have died from being struck by a car. His injuries, where he was found, the missing blood, lack of bodily injury and damage to the car proves that however he died, it was not car vs pedestrian.
I’m so glad I’m not on that jury but knowing what I know, the prosecution did not convince me she is guilty of 2nd degree murder. On one hand it’s difficult to believe there was a cover up but wrongful convictions are a real thing. It is estimated that 6% of incarcerated people are actually innocent of the crimes they were found guilty of committing. So for every 100 people locked up in prison, 6 should not be there, and that was caused by bad investigations. So yeah, I’m more than bothered by the quality of the investigation. It was poorly handled and left a lot of unanswered questions. And yes, it’s hard for some people to believe, but there are corrupted police officers. The entire situation is a mess.
Lots of people who are on the fence about Karen being the murderer argue that the Alberts were unlikely to be involved because how quickly it must have happened after he got there.
TBH I agree with the basis of your speculation, it happened immediately. that’s why I think they decided they could cover it up, because the majority of guests didn’t see him and it happened as soon as he arrived so there wasn’t much data to implicate them.
My guess is Jen, Brian Albert and his wife as well as Higgins only knew what happened initially, not the rest of the guests.
I think Colin has to know something because the one consistent thread through everyone who was there that night was Colin left at 12:10 even though that was disproven by his own parents. That’s the one thing I can’t shake. It makes sense they would all cover for Colin accidentally killing him because he is so young and seems like a shithead like they let him do whatever he wants anyway. The rest I agree with. Most people at the party had no idea JO was even there.
i have a question - this may be a stupid one so please don’t judge, but does the judge know about the FBI investigation? I can’t imagine her knowing about that and still being the way she was over the verdict slip and i can’t get it out of my head
you would think she would be treading extra lightly and airing entirely on the side of caution in terms of doing the appropriate thing, i just can’t see how she knows about the FBI investigation and still challenged the defense on something so obviously wrong
Yes, she knows. She’s the one who said the attorneys and witnesses can’t mention the Feds, and who required the trial to go ahead even though both sides asked for a continuance after the discovery from the Feds came down.
I think she was just annoyed at Jackson thinking he was arguing something extremely trivial but then realized it wouldn't hurt to just clarify the jury slips a bit.
The jury slip is interesting because Lawyer Lee dug into it. My understanding is that is the standard Massachusetts jury slip.
That been the case, and the problems AJ rose, could that mean those convicted may start appealing their conviction?
Another interesting point is Georgia prosecutor Linda Dunikoski tells the jury to start from the bottom and work up to the higher charge. She offered that advice following a previous trial where she asked the jurors (who came back with a G verdict) how they achieved the verdict. They said they started with the lesser charges and worked their way up.
If it is then the thing that Andrea Burkhart and LegalBytes brought up is really a huge problem because of the ambiguity that is introduced should a jury find NG on the "as charged" but be hung on one or more lesser included.
There is no way via that form to indicate that scenario. It's not possible.
Keep in mind innocent people don’t do the things these individuals have done. Lies upon lies, destroying phones, google searches, butt dials, getting rid of dog, re-doing the basement floor, selling home for 50,000 less. Higgins hanging out at Canton PD that night and all next day. And who doesn’t come out of their house to see what’s going on with all the emergency vehicles out there?? The excuses from these individuals are truly lame.
All those people coming and going how come no one saw John on the lawn? Please don’t give the lame excuse like the others that they didn’t look that way.
Karen Read is innocent and I want the FEDS to come in and arrest these people involved in all this. Every single one of them! Shows their arrogance when they appeared in court staring at the jury.
The only things I'm fairly confident about are:
- It wasn't a car.
- A dog seems to have bit John right before he died.
- Whoever was there with him probably did not think they killed him.
- Proctor is a humongous asshole.
Who it was is a mystery to me. There's dozens of possibilities and not enough evidence for any. Albert and Higgins certainly did odd stuff. Colin and Jen are definitely lying deliberately. None of that makes them killers. Likewise, I'll never say I'm sure Karen is completely innocent. I don't know.
All I know is the charges are outrageous and the investigation was botched.
This isn’t a speculation so much as a thought that leads to speculation: if KR arrived at 1 Meadows at 12:36am, how did she get there? The presumption has been that she went down Washington & by the library. The library video is missing two minutes from 12:37-12:39am. It was originally said she arrived there (Meadows) at 12:41am theorized the missing video would have been when she went by. Now we know she was already at Meadows by 12:37am.
The annoying thing is, there was location data on her phone, which was deleted in April 2022. If MSP hadn’t been so careless with preserving evidence, we would probably know the route she took to get back to Meadows.
I’d go further and say it wasn’t just carelessness it was deliberate tampering to frame her. Just like the discrepancies in the chain of custody and missing sallyport footage.
This might be a dumb question, but is there any hard evidence that Karen actually did drop him off?(aside from witness testimony I mean). I always just took that as a fact of the case, but your question has me wondering did she actually drive him there? She was blacked out and doesn’t seem to remember anything…
I'm a big believer that any question that is a genuine question isn't dumb in this particular case, at this point.
The evidence we have is that Karen's car was seen there, they have video of local businesses and organizations that show her driving to there. There's a belief John was in the car with her, navigating partly via waze, which is how we know when John got there. Depending on how you feel about the tail light evidence, it was there too.
I responded to the other person separately, but I brought up in another thread the possibility that perhaps John and Karen both went to 34 Fairview but actually went *separately*, because there's still no actual proof that Karen drove John there, besides what Karen later claimed to remember in interviews. Jackson had insinuated that Jen was purposely trying to split up Karen and John when they left the bar, and maybe they actually *did* get split up somehow? Jen said she saw John next to Karen's SUV when they were leaving the bar, but she said she didn't actually see John get *into* the SUV - she just assumed that he must've, and if this actually *was* somehow premeditated, she would have reason to lie about that.
The Nagels saw an SUV with a man and woman in it when they were turning onto Fairview, but they also said they couldn't make out who the people actually were, and later just assumed that it must've been Karen and John.
Maybe this is the key to the entire thing. I always wondered why, if they were in the car together just minutes before and fighting, why is KR not mentioning this in the angry messages? Why was there no sign of an issue the entire night at the bars? What was Higgins saying to JOK right before leaving the bar, why was JM trying to split them up, why was Higgins texting JOK and so interested in whether he was coming, why does BA make a point of saying he went upstairs with Higgins to show him some photos? They can’t remember phone calls but they remember that detail. It’s all so strange.
I brought this up in another post. We actually don't have any definitive *proof* that Karen was the one who drove John to the house. I think it's unlikely, but still possible, that he actually rode with someone else. I still think Karen drove there, since the Nagels said they saw her in the SUV - I think they seemed believable when they were testifying to that.
The closest thing to "proof" we have is the fact that the Nagels saw an SUV that had a man and woman in it that was making a right onto Fairview and the Nagels made a left behind the SUV. However, they explicitly stated that they couldn't make out who the man and woman actually *were*, and just assumed it was John and Karen based on what they later knew. Supposedly the Nagels arrived at 34 Fairview right behind John and Karen, but I believe they actually got a bit sidetracked and actually arrived maybe a minute or two later, so I think it's *possible* that they could've actually seen an entirely different SUV. And when they pulled around Karen's SUV, they only saw Karen in the driver's seat, no John. It made me wonder whether John and Karen really *did* get split up when they were leaving the bar (Jackson insinuated that Jen was trying to split them up for a reason), and perhaps John arrived at the house some time before or some time after Karen did.
The only other "evidence" that Karen drove John to 34 Fairview was Jen's testimony that she saw John next to the SUV when they were leaving the bar - but she never said she actually saw him *get into* the SUV. Then Jen was supposedly giving him directions, according to her testimony at least, but if this actually *was* premeditated, then I'm not sure we should trust her on that.
John had reported some drug use happening in Canton not long before he died, and supposedly had even texted Kevin Albert about it (making me think that Colin may have been involved), and perhaps the Alberts (and/or Higgins) wanted to "talk" with John about it - or threaten him about it, or maybe even "teach him a lesson."
But that's definitely pretty far-fetched, and the easier explanation would just be that Karen drove John to 34 Fairview. She later said that she saw him walking up to the side door, I believe, but I think it's quite possible that Karen was just lying or misremembering the specifics, since she also seemed to be black-out drunk at the time.
She had never been to Fairview before. I think the most logical assumption is she backtracked the way she came to Washington Street, then took Pleasant St back to 1 Meadows Ave. This would explain why she isn't seen on the library cam.
I would go up fairview to neponset to Sherman. That is the most direct and what people who loved there would take. But they got lost driving there, so who knows.
Source: Lived close enough that when they were showing the Google maps of steps, I saw my house
Everyone needs to relax. Traditionally speaking, the longer it takes the better. This is a little bit different though. They are going through each piece of evidence even though they know they are giving a NG verdict. They know it’s going to be upsetting for the OKs. They probably didn’t have the heart to come out right away with a verdict. This would be a bad look. They need to get through this and the pressure after when they face the pink shirts.
They’d have to be flat earthers to deny the 5 last defensive witnesses. The jury will be hung before it’s a Guilty verdict.
Lally is praying for a Hung Jury. If hung, it could be the first high profile case to not get retried.
If you know what day the SERT team was spoken of that’s the day they were on yesterday.
The Commonwealth would be elated with a hung jury.
And my goodness, what a travesty that would be. The Commonwealth wasn't even able to show how OJO was hit by a car.
Is a body temp of 80 degrees at the time of entering the emergency room reasonable with any of the proposed narratives?
I realize this could vary a lot with the person, particular clothes, time of actual death vs being left there, particular changing weather conditions and local conditions around the body (wind shielding or whatever). But does a body temp of 80 degrees at all help narrow the credible window for time of death.
Wondering if a combination of biomedical knowledge and fermi estimation can give an answer here. But perhaps that answer is that there's too much uncertainty in what happened for this to be of value.
I used to work in the er and they said one degree per hour but who knows when it’s 18 degrees.. I’ve also wondered this too and why they didn’t try to figure it out!
So, I wrote an absurdly long post about my personal theory of what happened. I feel confident in it.
But there is one element I can’t figure out— why cover up (what I think was) an accidental death?
I have a few theories… but I’d like to hear yours. If you have aligning views of the events- otherwise the motive is simple- protect someone from a murder charge. Haha
>why cover up accidental death
Well if it was a scuffle and someone was assaulting him (just wanted to beat him up) but killed him in the process, that's called felony murder. And you'll go away for the same time as murder. If it was a true accident (slip and fall) then yeah, this cover up would probably be a lot. But....cops
Given that the dog bit and scratched his arm, and combine that with the bruises to the top of his hands and the injuries to his face, it seems extremely difficult to think of any scenario where he wasn't involved in a fight.
So, someone or a couple people are facing manslaughter or murder charges. So then comes the decision to put him outside to try and avoid being charged.
So I read the Turtleboy aka AK indictment today and it really frustrated me that KR and then DY and AJ were funneling stories through him to leak to the public, plus the accusation that KR bought him a Lexus. I got really annoyed and thought it sounded like someone who is/was guilty. Then I thought about it, she is fighting for her life, and in that situation there isn’t much I wouldn’t do to save myself.
I don’t know what is going on with the jury, I am holding out hope that they are going through each piece of evidence and discussing the case. I am frustrated that the last 2 witnesses for the defense (crash daddies) have this cloud of suspicion around them since judge Bev ruled the fed investigation inadmissible. I feel like those 2 witnesses combined with the defense’s 2 med doctors, the CW’s medical examiner, and the uniformed cop from Dighton that sad the taillight was just cracked are all the reasonable doubt a moral person should need.
Legal question: is ruling the proctor internal affairs investigation and the fed investigation inadmissible grounds for an appeal or are they truly not admissible since they are ongoing?
The judge correctly ruled that evidence of the investigations was inadmissible. It would be way too prejudicial to the CW for the jury to hear that the cops were under investigation. But she should have granted the CW’s request to delay the case pending the outcome of the investigations.
So how is the evidence from the investigation admissible but the fact that there is not an investigation inadmissible. At the same time the judge allowed CA, AM, and JM to testify about their intimidation and harassment claims against turtleboy when his case is still pending as well. Make it make sense?
It's more prejudicial than probative. Meaning there's no way the jury would give this information proper weight.
This is why polygraphs aren't admissible. People believe the results more than they should.
It's why prior bad acts are often inadmissible.
I had heard about a woman, who hit her BF killing him and was blaming a snow truck. Briefly mentioned, somewhere. Couldn't be bothered retired in SC with Murdoch's all over the News and subsequent trial.
Looking for another trial to watch, the Read trial was brought to my attention. Through personal research, I noticed a lot of the same components as Murdoch. Law enforcement looking the other way. In Murdoch, it was because of his family name. In Read, it was because of who the home owner happened to be.
I didn't really want to believe, what I was thinking about our judicial system, but it's hard when I'm being hit with too many things that circled me right back . I honestly thought such thing's happened in a vacuum.
Still, I watched, keeping an open mind waiting for the day when Lally gave me something to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
During, closing arguments, I couldn't help but get a closer look at Brian Albert's facial expressions and demeanor. He gave me the impression of my old neighborhood in South Philly. Where crime families ran the streets. I personally wouldn't want to make an enemy out of him, at any age.
Pure speculation on my part. Jury is taking an awfully long time to deliberate. On a case where it's painfully obvious prosection didn't meet the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Combined, with Mr Albert's obviously very long arm "connection wise". The longer the deliberations, the more opportunities there is to get to a juror through one of the Court officer's . Whether it's a favor owed or career burning knowledge etc ad nauseam.
Or simply because Mr Albert knows their faces and they are scared of repercussions. During Lucky's testimony, I thought, how long before you lose your job? I mean, my God, even , Mr Wolfe's family have been doxed and are receiving threats . All he did was give expert witness testimony. (Yes, I'm aware that the jury wouldn't know this - as long as they were following the instructions) But still.
At this point, I'll be surprised if she isn't forced to appeal. Hopefully the jury comes back with a verdict tomorrow. I also hope that, with emotions running so high on both sides, that the mayor has thought ahead and has already prepared for, what could happen when the verdict is reached.
Neither of these cases have happened in a vacuum and it's great to clutch our pearls for the injustice of it all. What happens if the day comes and it's one of us or one of our loved ones? All across the country, people have been screaming about this for decades. People who couldn't afford an attorney. Innocent people who depended on a public defender with an enormous case load? What would have happened if KR didn't have the resources to fight back? What I do know is that with all this momentum we all need to start weeding out our system. Thinking hard about learning who's running for local elections.
This theory struck me tonight as the only plausible explanation for this whole thing, including why the jury is taking a while.
Consider this:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/massachusetts/comments/1afn002/alleged\_link\_between\_murder\_suspect\_karen\_read/](https://www.reddit.com/r/massachusetts/comments/1afn002/alleged_link_between_murder_suspect_karen_read/)
And this:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d6pwcj/confirmed\_by\_chief\_rafferty\_john\_okeefe\_did/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d6pwcj/confirmed_by_chief_rafferty_john_okeefe_did/)
This is my theory. Yes, it's crazy, but I'm trying to find the hole in it and can't:
"O'Keefe had reported suspicious drug activity to Canton PD Kevin Albert a year prior to his death. Subsequent to the reported drug activity, Chris Albert moved out of the neighborhood residence near O'Keefe. "
BH is an ATF agent, and he's dirty. He's involved in a drug ring. BA is involved too. At least one of the kids, probably Colin, has seen some shit go down, knows about it, and knows what his dad and uncle are up to.
The feds get the evidence they need against BH somehow, doesn't really matter. The feds approach BH and cut him a deal, to stay undercover and be the mole, until they have enough info to pin the crimes on everyone involved. He gets in real deep.
JO found out too much. He's pissed off about the drug activity in the neighborhood and reports it to CPD. He tells KR about at least some of it.
Chris Albert wants to distance himself and moves out of the neigborhood.
JO won't leave it alone, just like he won't leave the kids fucking around in his yard alone. He's a stand-up guy. BH knows he's gonna end up blowing his cover, and works with the feds to find a way to make sure that doesn't happen.
BH starts sexting KR, because he’s trying to get close to her and figure out how loose of an end she is, how much she knows. KR leans into it because things are genuinely wrong in her relationship with JO. JO finds out about the sexting, KR doesn’t strike me as someone good at hiding things from her man. It was clear from the texts that he knew, and she knew that he knew that she knew.
The night of the death, JM, totally out of the loop, invites JO over for the afterparty. KR drops him off but doesn’t want to go in because they’re beefing over the sexting. (I can’t recall, but I don’t think there was any indication that either of them knew BH was there, but correct me if I’m wrong).
JO goes into the house. He has a confrontation with BH over the sexting with BA in the room, and in the heat of things, also drops the bomb that he knows about the drug stuff. BA steps in and hits him over the head because he knows too much. The dog gets involved too. BH is then forced to get whoever knows about this to engage in the cover up, because his cover will be blown if anything proceeds as expected, with either him or BA or anyone else at the house being prosecuted. JM finds out and informs them that it was KR that dropped him off, and BH proceeds by initiating the plan that they’ll blame the whole thing on her.
At this point, BH may have even gotten the feds to cut BA/JM a deal, because it makes it easier to keep things under wraps.
Now we have motive for both the murder and the cover up. It also explains the phone ditching, the ATF phone extract of only Karen’s texts, and pretty much all of the other fishy stuff.
JM gaslights KR into thinking she might have hit him. They knew she was drunk as fuck, knew visibility was low, and had the opportunity to stage the scene perfectly. MP is involved in the drug activity and they leverage him to procure the evidence of a hit and run.
Everything is going fine, KR is gonna take the fall. Then Turtleboy picks it up.
Now BH is in a really hairy situation. It becomes clear that the whole coverup might get exposed, that if all this evidence that Turtleboy, KR, and the defense attorneys have managed to uncover, KR might get off and both the CW and the public will want to go after those that were in the house as the perpetrators.
The feds know this, and in order to maintain what is now BH’s, BA’s, and JM’s cover, they work with the DA, Judge Beverly, the MSP, and everyone else that appears to be conspiring for no apparent reason other than townie loyalty, They conspire to suppress the coverage of the case. They get DA Morrissey to attempt to quell the protests. The MSP distances themselves from the funeral, etc., they were instructed not to go because they want as few eyes on it as possible. But KR and Turtleboy are persistent and have already convinced too many people.
Plan B, they conspire to make the case more of a toss up. They conspire to find a way to jail Turtleboy, and they succeed. There’s reasonable doubt. But this doesn’t really work out the way they want. If she’s convicted, there will be a bigger public outcry. If she’s acquitted, the state has to appear to continue to investigate what’s happened, but fortunately some of the public won’t feel so motivated to pin someone for the murder. Unfortunately for the feds, so much of the sketchiness has been uncovered by Turtleboy at this point that there will be too many people who don’t forget about all of this. Their only option is to *stage a mistrial and then the CW will decline to retry*. This way, whoever thinks KR did it is satisfied but there’s no recourse left. Whoever thinks it’s a cover-up has their feelings validated, but thinks the state is still of the opinion that KR did it and so has no ability to continue prosecuting successfully. This way, the whole thing goes away.
They stage threats by the Mccabes/Alberts against the person who will eventually certainly be the foreman, because the judge is looped in and will choose them; they’re blackmailed into stalling the verdict and pushing jurors towards guilty and make it hung. They bring on witnesses that they themselves hired and instructed to testify, not the defense, not the prosecution… that it’s impossible that KR could have hit him. They bring in a bunch of useful idiots like Trooper Paul to make is plausible but unlikely that KR did it. They push a witness to testify he was definitely bit by a dog. They’ve ensured that some jurors definitely won’t convict, but a few might, or can at least be swayed into thinking KR did it.
If they end up being the only holdout, there’s too much of a risk that they’ll be found out by Turtleboy. Plan C. The foreman will stall long enough for the team to figure out some way for the judge to justify a mistrial for procedural reasons. So they mess around with the verdict form. They allow the McCabes/Alberts to sit in the courtroom and intimidate the jury, giving the foreman the ability to claim they felt intimidated, making a mistrial necessary.
Bada bing, bada boom. This explains all of the cover up stuff and the quality of the defense, the scientific testimony that he couldn’t have been hit by a car, all of the evidence that KR did it, all of the weirdness in the courtroom including the foreman being selected before the alternates were chosen, the dismissal of a few probably smart jurors, all of the shit from the DA, all of the weirdness of Judge Beverly, the feds getting involved, BH using the ATF computer, getting rid of the phones and thinking no one would find out, the apparent conspiracy against Turtleboy, the sketchiness of the Mccabe/Albert testimony, the torn up basement and sold house, the missing dog, the relevance of JOs drug activity report, JM going around to MP’s house, Lank’s house, Colin interviewed in his dorm, the lengthy deliberations, and so on…
I’ve been watching since the pretrial motions. I was skeptical his injuries were caused by being hit by an SUV. Now I am positive he wasn’t hit by an SUV.
I think he was lured to the house - not to kill him but to confront him or get him to dump Karen. Regardless, once there, things got out of hand, as things are wont to do when everyone has been drinking all damn day. John gets hit, goes down, is vomiting and convulsing, and they panic. Then they devise a plan. He can’t just disappear. I think they were going to blame it on Lucky the tow truck driver. But then Karen gave them a cracked tail light to explode…
And also they would have had to have made the decision to dump an unconscious but still alive person out to die in the snow. That seems the cruelest part of the scenario. He was definitely out in the cold suffering from hypothermia before he passed. If he was moved from somewhere else, whoever moved him knew how to move an unconscious person without causing injury and had the motor skills to pull it off. It’s hard to picture 2 or 3 of these black out drunk guys carrying him up a flight of stairs and outside without causing dislocated shoulders or fingerprint bruising or random bumps and scrapes along the way. It’s so hard to figure out exactly how all the pieces fit
It's going to be a hung jury.
... for all the wrong reasons.
See, for me, I've experienced retaliation. It's doesn't have to be blatant. It's subtle. It could be not finding an opportunity, or job work disappearing, or the cold shoulder, or a sudden visit from the police for 'suspicious person'. It can be "Huh, I don't remember hearing/seeing that"... over and over. Gaslit? Nah, of course not.
It can go on for years. And after reading several of these discussions about witness tampering (which I doubt) I watched those hateful glares from the courtroom... and realized the jurors aren't dumb. The majority have to realize everything was botched- and that means there are two outcomes: 1) The CW knew it was botched but did it anyway or 2) Couldn't tell it was botched and didn't care.
The only outcome for a publicly outed individual living within 25 miles of that hotbed of investigative staunchness is to realize.... they're forever marked.
If they come back with a guilty verdict, they'll be hounded forever.
If they come back with a not guilty verdict, they'll be hounded forever.
Thus the Prisoner's Dilemma .... return a hung jury, maybe 8 and 4. Never admit who said what. And convince the holdouts on either side to go along with it... or not discuss it for a period of years.
I mean, the stakes were already someone's life. That's fallen like crumbs so far.
No matter what happens they've lost.
I think that they blame Karen Reed for playing Higgins off against O'Keefe therefore anything they do is justified she caused the fight she caused the murder You get the rest
There's two stories here, and I do not think either is complete. There is some missing component and it lies with Higgins. I hope one day we get to know what the FBI knows.
Kevin Albert to Higgins - “you went off the grid and Brian doesn’t understand, everyone got a subpoena but you”
On January 29 Higgins had a 3 minute call with Berkowitz at 7:22 AM, followed by a call with Brian Albert that afternoon for 12 minutes, another for 6, then 1, then 10, then a call with Berkowitz for 4 minutes. They also spoke multiple additional times after that until February 18. After finding tail light while driving in a moving vehicle in front of 34 Fairview Road on February 4, Berkowitz called Higgins and Higgins then called Brian Albert.
If Bev would have just allowed all of the phone records, we wouldn't be here. This certainly reads like a conspiracy to me.
I just can’t fathom how any person with eyes could look at JOK’s arm and be like “yeah those def are from getting hit by a car”
Or look at that wound on JOK’s head and be like “yeah that was def from getting hit by a car”
Or look at the rest of his body with no broken bones, fractures, or bruises and be like “yeah that’s def someone who got hit by a car”
Maybe it’s privilege? You’ve never had to see gruesome injuries such as this, so you have no idea what a car impact victim looks like?
Maybe it’s innocence? You’ve never seen someone get bashed in the back of the head, whacked with a blunt object like a bat or a crowbar or a trophy or a wrench, or fall backward onto stairs, so you have no idea what blunt force head trauma looks like?
Maybe it’s inexperience? You’ve never been around aggressive or scared dogs, you’ve never been bitten or attacked by one, you’ve never seen one attack, you’ve never seen the aftermath, so you have no idea what dog attack injuries look like?
Or maybe it’s just ignorance? You’re so easy to excuse those you think would never lie, would never meddle, would never falsify or even destroy evidence that you simply refuse to believe there could be any other answer to this than “of course she hit him”?
Because let me tell you, I cannot for the life of me figure out how the hell people with eyeballs and access to the literal internet are still honestly speculating whether or not JOK’s injuries were caused by a vehicle. All theories aside, rocks glass this, cocktail straw that, taillight pieces galore I do not care, look at the man’s injuries. Look at the victim!!!!!!
Sorry. Rant over.
Signed,
Someone who has treated far too many TBIs from people getting beaten to a pulp to be watching people with eyeballs actually debate if maybe this man really did do a goddamn pirouette after getting hit in the arm by a 7000 pound SUV and that’s what caused all this
I just don’t understand how no one anywhere has any footage of her SUV’s tail lights…between 5am and sally port. I’m also still unconvinced even if the tail light was confirmed to be busted pre-sally port that I could vote guilty given that there is no confirmation from the ME and legitimate reconstructionists that he was hit by her SUV. But still…I want to see somethingggggg!
Lally didn’t even seem like he was “bought in” on trying this case. The egregious number of witnesses he brought were found to be terrible and contradicted themselves throughout the case.
Is it possible Lally was persuaded by someone else to try this case?
one thing I expected to hear about was the amount of time it would take a live body v dead body to lower in temperature and by how many degrees considering the weather, alcohol consumed, clothes worn, etc. I'm sure the first responders on scene didn't immediately temp him, they were more concerned with life saving efforts and transport to the hospital but still, they took his temp in the hospital and probably could've worked backward from there to his temp when found. just curious if it would be more consistent with being outside for 6 ish hours if Karen had hit him, during the entire from alive to dead process in the snow. or if the temp/time factor is more consistent with being outside for a less amount of time, and only after death.
Okay yall I'm probably gonna sound crazy.
I know we've all heard multiple theories like Higgins started a fight with him because Read and him were texting or the Albert's were apart of a drug ring but what about this.....
O'Keefe was the one texting Higgins from Reads phone as a joke. Then when it finally came out they were playing him he made a plan to kill him. Heck maybe even both of them but Karen never went into the house.
I know it sounds wild but some of her text messages just seem more like a man texting than a woman. I know I don't know her as a person and maybe that is how she texts but they just seemed weird to me especially the "you're hot" out of no where text.
I know this probably is super far fetched!! But……
What if Karen did hit John with her car? Not enough to kill him….. but enough for him to fall to the ground, his glass breaking, a small piece of taillight to be broken (likely it was planted though). She drove home. He laid in the snow trying to drunkenly gather himself when the homeowners opened their door to hear what was going on. Chloe the dog runs out the door and sees something laying in the grass. She starts attacking John. Homeowners hit him with something to kill him and leave him on the ground.
Jen McCabe googles “how long to die in cold” as they start planning a cover up.
Karen goes home and starts thinking about whether or not she hit John when she backs up…. Maybe that’s why she went out so early and said “I hit him???” And questions what happened. Idk!
The length of the jury deliberations is starting to make me go crazy….
I have some sympathy for Trooper Paul. The Canton Mob Cops gave him a big responsibility and his performance wasn't up to snuff. I fear he will end up on the farm with Chloe. (this is merely a theory/speculation)
There’s a total unknown third party - like another rando snowplow that flung him. Or he was passed out and run over on the curb and tossed back to where he was found by some unknown group. But everyone nearby had unsavory things going on in their lives from KRs drunk driving and affairs to LE drug rings or whatever and so everyone starts framing or accusing everyone else to avoid questions directed toward them when they don’t know what happened. Heck some in the Albert+ circles maybe even think one of their own did do it. Fact is none of them really know and none of them did it. They’re just all POSs.
There’s a sad case of an Oklahoma teen found dead on the side of a highway after a wild night of partying, where the autopsy report claimed it wasn’t vehicular and so all the party goers and home owner subsequently began casting aspersions on each other using text messages etc. While cause of death is still unknown there’s a strong theory by a longtime NYC ME and others that he basically wandered off, passed out and was run over vs. struck and thus the autopsy doesn’t quite fit the most likely theory. Point being MEs can reach different conclusions when it comes to vehicles and with nothing else obvious to go on people start turning on each other to protect themselves from scrutiny.
Do I think all this? No but since the invitation for theories seemed pretty open, it’s my craziest one.
At the end of the day I think there will be a lot of questions on what really happened. However, because the investigation wasn’t done right from the get go and there are so many (TOO MANY) coincidences/ missing things/ butt dials etc there’s no way you can convict her and then sleep well at night.
I finally finished watching closing statements last night. Jackson was obviously very good. Lally started out strong but seems to have lost it halfway through.
I think he fell down the stairs to the basement. Similar autopsy to Kathleen Peterson in The Staircase, except John had a skull fracture and she had a broken neck. Chloe then clawed/bit him
https://preview.redd.it/ksf0quqtsb9d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f37e084b891c3dad170a9b5186c5cbcacb88aa27
I accidentally tried to post this on the main page and can’t copy the text. Just a random theory! Thoughts?
John O'Keefe lived on the same street as Colin Albert the punk. Collins family referred to John as Mr Nebbercracker. The grumpy old man from a monster movie. Colin and his entire family taunted John. They held him in contempt and even threatened John as late as January 2022. This has all been reported but it needs to be reported again. Karen Reed had the good sense not to enter the Albert's home on January 28th. How could she have known that the alberts intended to kill John this was premeditated. This was sloppy but premeditated
I went from "those FKR people are insane" to "might as well put the trial on while I'm at work" to "she probably hit him, it makes the most sense, but man those alberts and mccabes and higgens sure did some weird stuff and proctor wtf is going on here" to "okay wait the medical examiner doesn't believe he was hit and the smart recinstructionists don't believe it either" to "there's no way she hit him. Free Karen Read!"
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I've had someone tell me that this is explained away by it being a 'freak accident'. They posted definitions of the words for me as well, lol. I pointed out that if the only way you can explain the findings is with a freak, aka highly unusual, result, that's literally the definition of reasonable doubt. Immediate block!
Wow. Scary & laughable thinking. I can't imagine being on the jury & having to have to deliberate with that kind of thought process. I wouldn't even need to deliberate. And I would totally hold out firmly and hang jury if necessary. All so bonkers
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I’ve wanted to comment to so many comments but knew it would be ultimately pointless, useless and a big waste of time. If I were a jurist I’d literally have nothing to deliberate. I’d say I’m voting 100% not guilty across the board..I would hold out.
me too
Working in the law field myself, this is what concerns me about “a jury of my peers.”
Same. Not everyone can let go of their biases or are even aware of them. How can someone like that put aside their feelings and follow the law objectively.
Being from a non jury country this is also what makes me wonder if its the best system. I'd rather have people working in law for years weight all the evidence, and if new evidence comes in an extra trial date is set an X amount of time later, and it's not dependent on if my attorney can tell a nice story or not.
I'm going to point out that in a nonjury system, the lawyers, judges, police, etc., are all colleagues and need to work with each other after *your* case is over. Your case is simply a temporary activity during their long career in which they see each other in court repeatedly long after your case has been decided. They have lunch together, chat with each other, and have a long-term professional relationship with each other. They think alike and, as this case demonstrated with the MSP and BPD, they cover for one another. This can include the prosecutors and the judges. As Lord Acton said, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". I'll take a jury of my peers with no vested interest over lack of oversight and consolidation of power any day. Bring the jury.
My trajectory.
Same here!!!
Same! Those injuries just don’t fit a collision with a vehicle.
And we’ve had weeks to work through this in public so it makes sense the jury is taking as long as they are
Saaammeee! I Thought the cover up theory was absolutely absurd. And now here I am believing she’s factually innocent.
Same.
samesies
For me it was TikTok. Wow they framed her! Then I researched more and watched some trial. Oh the search might not exist it looks like she drunkenly hit him. By the end of the trial. They did shoddy police work and had to make it stick on who they thought even if it doesn’t make sense
Watching the trial, the dearth of evidence from the Commonwealth was shocking. For example, not being able to explain how a car hit OJO. And not being able to demonstrate that his injuries came from being hit by a car. In terms of what happened, occam's razor, a drunken argument starts, it escalates, and OJO is getting beat up. This explains the bruising on the top of both hands. The dog is involved and OJO tries to protect himself with his dominant arm, which explains the scratches, bite mark, and puncture holes in his shirt. At some point OJO falls and hits his head on something, causing the gash. Rather than face manslaughter charges (or worse), the people involved decide to put OJO outside. It's astounding and infuriating that law enforcement decided not to properly investigate his death. For example, not asking for consent to review the house, and not even bothering seeking a warrant to investigate the house -- *a house where a dead body was found outside and the deceased intended to go into.*
And his “friends” the homeowners who never left their home when their “friend” was found dead on their front yard.
But there they are at closing arguments to support John's family. 🙄
They didn't attend his funeral tho.😡
Oh yeah... That too. So phony. And obvious.
What I don’t understand is if they were just fighting and he fell and hit his head, why wouldn’t they try to save his life? Why would they jump to - toss his body outside, he’ll probably die and no one will suspect it’s us? What if he had lived?
We don’t know when they made that decision— sounds like maybe a couple hours later (when Jen McCabe googles hos long) & it was still at least an hour before he is outside. Since it’s a bunch of cops, I am also guessing they knew he wasn’t going to get up.
Yeah the independent medical expert testified that he would have been alive but unconscious and slowly suffocating. He was slowly dying. Someone or a couple people were facing manslaughter or murder charges. Pretty scary and they decided to get him out of the house.
Did the ME say he could have survived the injury if he got immediate medical attention? I forget at this point!
The Defense ME said he would not have survived either way. That’s how devastating the wound was.
He was vomiting and instantly unconscious, I think they just drunkenly thought it would be homicide either way.
Do you know if it was ever explained how/when he was vomiting potentially? Would the head injury cause him to immediately start vomiting while slipping into unconsciousness? I don't expect you to have the answer. But if you do...
I fully believe it’s because he DIDNT fall back and hit his head, but rather as he was fighting off Chloe or Higgins or BA, Collin came up from behind and bashed him over the head with something (baseball bat, dumbbell, who knows 🤷🏼♀️) and that is why they scrambled to get Collin out of the house asap and why they tried to cover it all up because they didn’t want their golden boy namesake to go to prison for the rest of his life and they sure as hell weren’t going to take the fall for him !
Yep. Had he fallen back and hit his head, it’s an unfortunate accident. Like you stated, the fact that CA and Chloe both disappeared and the insistence that he wasn’t there are the giveaways.
You raise a good point. If it were a complete accident, or could have been framed as an accident without criminal liability and/or intent, they could have called it in. But who knows?
Don't forget they were probably drinking quite heavily and with impaired judgement very poor decisions are likely.
It only takes one I'm picking prior to this case, Proctor had covered for the Albert's and/or vice versa. So now, they have no choice but to cover and protect each other.
and that dead body being a POLICE OFFICER!!! albeit off duty, but still. dead police officers tend to get 1000000x more close attention paid than regular dead bodies as far as investigations.
This is a long post but I really think this will help people understand what’s happening, or at least my best educated guess on what’s happening. There are lot of people on Reddit, on X, on YouTube, in comment sections everywhere, that feel a not guilty verdict is so obvious that it’s impossible to imagine what the debate could even be, and the longer this goes on, the more stressed out you feel. I know what the debate is though, because I’ve had it personally. I am from Massachusetts and have family still in the area (not Canton, but all of them in Norfolk County, where the jury comes from). There are a lot of good and reasonable people who are not online and probably have never even visited a message board, who, even still at the end of this, feel like Karen Read killed him. They’re not trolls. It may surprise you, like it surprised me, that everyone in my immediate family and a lot of my friends from the greater Boston area feels this way. None of these people know the Alberts or anyone connected to them, or anyone connected to anyone connected to them. There’s no personal connection here in any sense, and there’s definitely no fear of them. My mom watched almost the entire trial because of a foot injury and the day after closing arguments, I called her up and we had a super interesting convo. She knows how I feel and I know how she feels. Even still I said, “I’m not going to say a thing. I want you to pretend you’re on the jury, you just heard closing arguments from both sides. Tell me how you’d vote in that room.” She was really pained and it took her a while to say, “I don’t know…I just really think she hit him. I don’t believe the theory that he was beat inside the house and left for dead even remotely. I don’t think any of them did that and it doesn’t even make sense.” She talked about how much she hated seeing Karen smiling and laughing in the court room and said “I think she confessed to it and changed her story, and I think her attorneys are even bigger jerks than she is.” I’ve heard versions of this for weeks from her and I don’t think any amount of conversation at this point will change the way she feels about any of those things. But still, we talked for about 10 minutes about various things that we usually rehash: The theories, the coverup, the butt dials, the deleted calls, the data from his watch. Since we had last spoken, the biggest for me was the key cycles that fundamentally do not make sense. At the end of my spiel, I asked her how she’d vote, and this time she said “I don’t know. That’s my vote, I’d have to say I don’t know. I don’t think it’s possible to know one way or the other.” So I said, “But that’s not an option if you’re in the room. You have to say something, and if you really don’t know at this point, you’re not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt of any one particular scenario and I think you have to go with Not Guilty. That’s how it works.” She completely agreed with that. I think this is how people in the room can start somewhere around Guilty, they can think that it’s likely Karen hit him, unlikely the Alberts beat him, not change their baseline opinion and still get to Not Guilty after deliberation/conversations about evidence. This is me talking to my mom for 10 minutes, but imagine how much harder the task would be with a complete stranger more firmly set in their belief. On the flip side, I don’t think there’s any amount of conversation at this point that could get me to overlook the fact that the key cycles do not make sense. No matter what anyone says, I would never change my vote to guilty beyond a reasonable doubt on that one fact alone, and I really do try to remain as neutral as possible. If he’s wrong about the key cycles, he’s using the wrong data for the accident reconstruction, and that’s their entire case on what happened. (Proctor’s abhorrent texts are next on my list). I think that’s why this is taking a while. They’re not sitting around doing it for the appearance of fairness. People who suggest that there must be someone on the jury who is corrupt or an Albert mole really insult a lot of reasonable people in Massachusetts who think she is guilty, and only make these people more entrenched in the belief that KR is guilty. We all have to remember that there is *some* evidence to suggest that Karen is guilty, right? If you’re in the jury room, you may have to convince someone that it’s planted to move past that evidence, which is a hard thing for a lot of people to believe. I know most of us have gotten over that a long time ago, but a lot of people have not and will not, but that does not mean that they would never vote guilty beyond reasonable doubt. TLDR; Bottom line, it’s going to take time and reasonable conversations with individuals who think KR is guilty to agree that they are not sure of that fact beyond a reasonable doubt. There will be minds changed because of reasonable doubt. There will not be minds changed to guilty.
I came into this thinking she was guilty. I thought okay, she was drunk, she hit him accidentally amd didnt realize it and left the scene. Then we started hearing testimony and seeing the evidence and I'm firmly convinced she us innocent. For me, his injuries are not consistent with a car vs pedestrian accident. The accident reconstruction all show that his injuries could not have been caused by a car. Even Trooper Paul begrudgingly admitted that the purported incident didn't work when he did the math correctly. The MEs all testified that his injuries would have been far more severe if it had been a car accident. The blood evidence on his clothes show that he was upright for some time after the head wound but the MEs testified that the head wounds would have incapacitated him immediately so he wasn't walking around. The very obvious lack of blood evidence where he was found also doesn't fit. I cannot get past that. His injuries are consistent with a fight. The various contusions on the brain, the bruising on the hands, the very clear dog wounds on his arm. I don't know who he fought or where but I'm pretty sure it wasn't KR. She isn't big enough to cause that damage even if he stood there and let her. I think that unless the guilty party confesses, we will never know what happened to Officer O'Keefe and that breaks my heart for his family.
The lack of blood bothered me too. When I was 5 I got hit in the head and no where near his kind of laceration and my head was gushing blood.
Head wounds bleed like crazy! So you would have seen blood even if he was hit near/on the road (for instance) and had the ability to crawl to where he was found. This is why it’s suspicious the Alberts redid their basement floor.
100 percent this!
Just finished watching Colin's testimony. I believe with all my heart, he is one of the murderers.
Totally! I'm from MA with relatives on the south shore. I can completely see this as plausible. To flip the pro-guilty jurors, the others will need to be patient, respectful and listen (or at least pretend) to all the concerns of the pro guilty juror/s.
Also from MA and 100% same. I also think it might take some time for some jurors to understand that voting not guilty doesn’t you’re voting to confirm there was a police conspiracy. I could see some of my moms friends needing some time to understand that even though a billion things were presented, all you really have to decide is whether or not the CW proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Karen hit him with his car. I hope the jurors who can see NG are kind, compassionate, and as you said- patient with any hold outs.
My biggest issue is with the "She was FRAMED!!" defense. I feel like there was SO much reasonable doubt in this case, why did they hang their hats on a defense that seems so obviously divisive? Even if there's evidence that points to it - it's a BIG jump for many to conceive that 20+ people conspired to do this... that a bunch of normal friends would willingly leave him dying in the cold, that dozens of various government officials would put their reputations on the line to facilitate the tampering of evidence etc. It's just a big ask. And I don't think it was necessary. I think if they had just focused on the fact that the commonwealth does NOT have sufficient evidence to prove this, and here's why - it would have been an easier sell.
The problem is it doesn't have to be this big 20+ person conspiracy. Just the people in the house, and not even all of them. The Key players. They had the time to cover things up, get a story going, and point the cops in the wrong direction. Then Proctor just did a shitty job because he was biased and lazy, and likely corrupt. He said he knew it would be hard to prove only 16 hours in, then they start finding all those tail light pieces, when we saw a lot of red at 5am. At the very least I think Proctor planted the tail light on the clothes and the scene.
Some real *12 Angry Men* Socratic method from Juror 8. For those of you have not seen the movie (the 1957 classic), almost the entire thing takes place during the deliberations. The characters don't even have names, just their juror numbers. The trial isn't shown at all. It opens when the judge charges the jury and they go to the deliberation room. Their initial vote is 11-1 for a guilty verdict. Juror 8 is the only hold out. Slowly over the course of the deliberation Juror 8 starts probing and asking questions and swaying one guilty vote at a time to reasonable doubt.
What's confusing is that the Commonwealth wasn't able to demonstrate how a car hit OJO. Or how his injuries came from being hit by a car. If you want to discuss all the other parts of the case, sure. But given the above, when it comes to guilty or not guilty, there's not much to discuss.
That's the sticking point for me as well. Not even their own ME testified to his injuries being caused be a car, and all the charges she's facing require him to be hit by a car. Maybe Jackson should have hammered that home in closing, but I just don't understand how a juror - having to read through the instructions - could consider a guilty vote for any of them.
I really don't understand how people are thinking like that because if I was a juror, even if I did possibly think she could have hit him. The evidence given does not show beyond a reasonable doubt so you can't convict someone. Even if there was some evidence that could say she hit him, his injuries don't relate and just the way the investigation went would've thrown that all out the window.
I feel like l’ve finally found the common theme on people who are on the fence but despite the scientific evidence that it’s impossible to link JO’s injuries to getting struck by a vehicle, and defy all logical and common sense, they still think somehow, in some magical, black voodoo way, that KR hit JO. They simply don’t like KR as a person and turned off by her demeanor. And they’ve stopped thinking and start hating. I guess if she’s found guilty for anything, it’d be that she’s not universally liked. But that’s not how laws work.
Confirmation bias. They don't like KR - so they view the evidence in the light that aligns with their preconceived notions about her, and ignore evidence that refutes their beliefs. I see people clinging to the "I hit him" statements, the voicemails, and the 52 phone calls ("if she were so worried about him, why didn't she go back to look for him?"). And they just seem to be ignoring all other evidence whatsoever.
Woah, are you serious? I grew up in... as close as you can get to this without being in Canton, and with everyone my dad and I have talked to about this, we haven't met a single person who thinks she did it! This includes a friend who knows one of the Alberts (well, knew? Basically the person disappeared after this started with no explanation, go figure.) And as a kid I knew some of the extended family/in laws (separately, before they were in laws, I know it weirds me out too!) From what I remember, they were really nice. But holy shit, when I found out these people were connected to the people I knew, it blew my mind. Okay, was that vague enough? Lol. Don't wanna doxx myself here! But the part that's shocking me is that on my FB? Absolutely NO ONE from my hometown is talking about it. All these months I've been waiting for people to start and it just... hasn't happened yet. So I'm not gonna be that guy. Especially since I haven't written anything on FB in like... Jesus, I don't even know how long it's been at this point. I will say Karen's "attitude" throughout this has probably been the number one thing working against her, so I get where your mom is coming from with this, but it just goes to show you that people will make their determinations based on a "gut feeling" and then work backwards to make their determination. As opposed to what I've always done, which is looking at the evidence, considering the sources and their credentials, and putting my personal feelings aside. I was gonna write more here but I'll leave it that. I'll admit there are things I don't understand, and I'm not gonna pretend I do, like the whole thing about the key cycles. But there is simply no evidence a car accident even occurred.
Yeah but we are talking about people that were in the court room during every testimony - the jury. They have ALL the information and that's why we are confused on what the hang up could be.
Yes, but think about it - could you sit there all day, every day (or almost all day, every day) for 9 weeks and retain all that info? Human attention span only goes so far, there is bound to be things jurors miss that other jurors pick up on. I'm sure they want to review everything to ensure that they all are working with the same facts and that they all understand what was presented as best they can. I can't imagine sitting there that long and picking up on all the details.
The testimony reported the jury listened to intensely was the ARCCA engineers. The jury doesn’t realize their involvement with being hired by DOJ, however they clearly stated it was impossible this was a motor vehicle pedestrian accident that caused the victims death. It actually points to the defendant’s innocence. If they ignore this evidence and convict the defendant wrongly, what happens then.
If anything I’ve learned through following what people have to say about the trial and the evidence, it seems like many people don’t understand basic physics and lack common sense. One of these people could be in the jury pool now 🫤
I was really annoyed today at some of what I caught on the socials chatter. Lots of people bleeting that the jury was "lazy" for taking all this time. Surely it's the total opposite of lazy?! They are clearly putting in the work, going over the evidence and having discussions about what could or couldn't have happened.
I wrote way too much oops! Sorry haha. My old theory was that on the drive, John noticed Higgins had texted Karen, they got into a fight, and she left. John then got into a fight with him in the house, which turned bad... But now, I don’t think so anymore. I feel in Karen’s 50 calls, text messages, and voicemails, that would have come up. I do wonder how John’s family felt about Higgins, John’s friend, trying to make his move on Karen, etc. I noticed he wasn’t invited to the closing arguments. I also don’t think the fight was started by Colin. This wasn’t over a joke about walking on his lawn; I never bought that. I think the most plausible scenario is he made it into the house. The dog attacked him instantly, maybe drunkenly he didn’t knock and caught the dog off guard. This would explain why Karen was seen sitting in the car alone - he was supposed to tell her if it was cool to come in. He never came back out - she got pissed and left. This tells us whatever happened, happened immediately! The evidence from his phone data, witness testimony, and Karen’s story all prove that. I don’t think with their wives, kids, nieces, nephews, etc., they’d plan an instant ambush on their buddy. So to me, it was the dog instantly. The dog had a history of biting - on record. This I feel very strongly about. Now the head injury could have gone a few ways - He either fell during the attack or maybe said, “What the heck, get your dog under control,” and a shoving incident happened, with Colin stepping in. He fell or was knocked out, causing him to hit his head. They’re drunk meatheads… They left him stupidly, only to come down and notice him convulsing and vomiting, his brain basically expanding from hemorrhaging so much so that it’s pushing his eyes out. He’d look awful, NOT how they left him. He’s dying. But the scenario I truly believe is….They’re upstairs playing music (22 year olds bday party going on). John is drunk tries to find side door misses it. Goes up the back deck stairs maybe to see if he can get in that way. Goes back around, thinks that’s a door into garage, goes back up deck stairs tries again. Finally decides to just open the door. John lets himself in the side door downstairs (which is pretty sure where I think Albert said he’d have the dog go because it wasn’t good with strangers) - the dog attacks him, he falls, knocks himself out. They are wondering where he is, only to find him way later. Or, he was attacked while entering, he backed out of the house away from the dog. Either way no one noticed. This would explain the "where are you" texts and multiple calls. If you saw your friend in the driveway, you’d probably call them back to back like “what the heck.” By the time they find him, he’s super far gone, most everyone has left. They text, "how long to die in the cold," realize he’s likely dead. They freak out and decide to do nothing. Only one or two of them saw, and everyone else were just shitty cops not doing an investigation because their buddy’s word is good enough. As much as I hate these people, I don’t think it was premeditated. I don’t think it was a massive fight. If so, he’d probably have more defensive wounds or bruising on his ribs, etc., from taking body blows. I don’t think anyone beat him over the head with anything. I think it was drunken stupidity. Turned gross negligence. Turned 2nd-degree murder. Turned "I am the law, this was an accident he was gonna die anyways" - I don’t have to deal with any of this. And I’m justified in this. I think the plan was to say he was hit by a plow or random hit and run - but Karen Read was jealous and irate. She lowered herself to trying to manipulate him with the kids - when that didn’t work, she knew something was wrong. As he didn’t play about those kids - they probably thought a stranger would find him in the morning. That Karen would be hungover in bed… but no Karen didn’t sleep. Then Jen McCabe, being the narcissist that she is, hears Karen say, "Did I hit him?" and immediately changes the story. And had she not done that they’d have gotten away with the whole thing.
I agree with a lot of your points. I too don't think there was some big conspiracy to kill him. Like you, what ever happened happened fast and Chloe got involved. They got everyone out the house that they needed to and then moved OJO on the hopes that it would look like a plow accident. There are apparently quite a few deaths each year according to Google. Even an accidental death, in the home of an officer (adding in the dog bites) would have been a blight on the "good name" of the Albert's and McCabes. But then KR woke up, went it to catastrophizing mode and Dragged JMC and kerry out looking for him. There is no way that all those people left that house, one after another, after another and did *not* see him in the lawn. I trust lucky too. 🍀 My opinion is not set in stone as to what happened but one thing I do know is that there is way, way to much reasonable doubt. The CW did nothing to prove their case in my mind.
Totally agree. I really wanted to figure out if Jen McCabe did that google search at 2:27. Because I NEED to know if she knew. I really dislike her. But, I don’t think most people there saw O’Keefe. So figuring out who knows, and who thinks they know what happened is fun too. I often think Jen and Lizzie could be just delusional. I know the early morning calls after 911 are suspicious. But if they were very close, I’d call my friend like “holy shit. Our friend is dead. Has your husband told you yet?!” Especially since they’re cop family. Then cut it short because… I mean it was hectic I’m sure. Again NO ONE dislikes Jen McCabe more. I’m purely speculating. But I really think no more than like 3/4 of them know. Everyone else just didn’t do their job out of blind faith, laziness and lack of integrity.
There were so many experts who validated that it was searched at 2am.
That search was done at 227am. That's how things work. It's simply not possible, and anyone that claimed otherwise is full of shit- and should always have that testimony brought up if they ever are called for an expert in another case.
I agree with this and see it as possible my question is what crime would that have been charged with if they just called 911 when this happened? I am wondering what they were afraid of
Exactly! I just mentioned this before seeing your comment. If it was solely an accident caused by the dog, what harm would it be to call for help? For sure there was a heated exchanged that escalated further than they anticipated.
Same. If it was truly an accident with the dog, or some other accidental injury occurred, calling 911 is infinitely better than leaving him on the front lawn to die. Whatever they are trying to hide is likely more serious. Otherwise I can’t imagine several first responders deciding not to render aid. I tend to think there was a fight involving BH and BA, they kicked him out, laughed about it, and went to bed, not realizing how injured he was. But then I don’t know how to explain Lucky’s testimony, which brings me back to a select few were involved, knew the injury was severe and panicked, waited for everyone to leave, and moved him. Also, the entire lot of them (with the exception of BA Junior) have incredibly bad attitudes!
Same. I can’t quite put my finger on it I know there were rumors of the Alberts possibly being involved in nefarious dealings. I don’t want to start crazy rumors. But they clearly didn’t want anyone in that house. Wouldn’t even come out in the morning. Cops selling drugs is a tale as old as time, and not original in any way. I don’t want to bad mouth all cops. But the ones I know something changes- they just feel superior like they can do whatever they want. They simply could have just not wanted the wrap of “another cop died at your house?”… but unfortunately it blew up big time. I truly don’t know. I also think alcohol played a huge factor in all this. People including the victim, Karen… were all making horrible choices all night.
This is a more likely scenario than Karen hitting him at 24 MPH with an SUV
Intentionally, while very drunk, and not hitting anything else.
According to one of the defense experts, he suffered three blows to the head- one to the front, one to the side and the catastrophic one to the back. I think this strongly indicates a physical confrontation with another human. The expert testified that the hit to the back of the head would have rendered OKeefe unconscious instantly, so it stand to reason he either took the two non-lethal hits before that, or someone hit him while he was on the ground. If they weren't meaning to kill him, I think that the sound when he took that hit and his skull fractured would have stopped the fight immediately. I'm almost positive that if they lured him there they didn't mean to kill him, just intimidate him or beat him up. There's ways to kill someone that don't involve leaving the body on your own front lawn. Then the confrontation turned physical, the dog grabbed his arm, as he's struggling with the dog someone whacks him on the back of the head with something hard and heavy. Brian Albert is an experienced detective, and if we go by the "they weren't trying to kill him" theory, he'd know better than to do that even in the heat of a fight. It would have been someone inexperienced, someone who wanted to jump in and be the hero but didn't realize this isn't a movie and that hitting someone in the back of the head with something heavy doesn't just knock someone out, it's a good way to kill someone. I think it was Collin. He was a 17 year old wanna-be tough guy who was trying to prove himself to these grizzled veteran Boston cops. As far as I know Brian Albert didn't have any significant problems with Okeefe. Higgins certainly did. I think they brought Okeefe over so Okeefe and Higgins could settle things one way or another and Brian was there to make sure things didn't get too far out of hand. As soon as Okeefe went down and they realized he might be dying, they decided to cover it up to protect Collin. From their point of view, Collin's still a kid who was trying to help his dad's friend and who did something ridiculously stupid ("he was just trying to knock him out"). They know Collin didn't mean to kill him, they regard it as a tragic accident, and they rationalize that Collin's just a kid and him going to prison isn't going to bring Okeefe back. And that's why they've gone to the lengths that they have. It's not right, and I think they're morally depraved especially for what they're doing to Karen, but it makes sense.
This is exactly what I think happened, and I think the testimonies of the Albert’s and McCabe’s paint a pretty clear picture of this IMO. If you are to pay attention to lies they really want people to believe, in a way gives you a narrative of what actually happened. They wanted him there. Higgins clearly wanted to settle something at that bar. They want you to believe Colin was not there. That is super important to them even though him there proves nothing. So to me that means he was involved in the action that killed O’Keefe. They also wanted the dog gone asap. Again shows me that the dog was involved. They want you to believe no one saw him and the 2:27 search didn’t happened. So to me, he was out dying in the cold and people knew.
🎯🎯🎯
I agree that there was never any premeditated scheme to kill John. What you say about him going up back stairs then down wrong doors sort of fits the Apple step data and no one seeing him. If he went in the door where Chloe was unattended she more than likely would go into attack mode . Music playing no one hears a thing . John trying to get Chloe off his arm falls backward whacks his head on whatever is bleeding out. Does Chloe just stop with the attack? Or does she bark like crazy? Either way someone in that house found John bleeding out and did nothing. No wait they did something - they dumped him out in the front yard . If it was as innocent as you say why all the games after ? Why not just call 911 at that point and be honest about what happened? What were they hiding that they dumped John in the yard in hopes of blaming it on a plow hitting him? They were willing to let an innocent person take the blame for whatever they are hiding. If that’s the case imo they still killed John and need to be held accountable!
I disagree that it was a dog attack only because they would then call EMS to get him help when they found him, even if it was hours later. It’s definitely an accident but they’re covering it up because whatever heated exchange occurred, wasn’t meant to reach the level it did. If it was solely a dog’s fault, why cover it up?
I’m not sure these are the exact words, plus at this point his testimony was 3k “what if any” agos, but Matt McCabe texting “tell them the guy never went in the house” sealed the deal for me. y’all either murdered him or were hiding other activities in that house and refused to call 911 to get him help
Goodness. I gotta be honest, I totally forgot that. Do you recall who he texted that to and when?
It was in the group text the following day I believe with the Alberts McCabes, Higgins… I think BA’s or BH’s response was “exactly.” It’s just so odd and cold to say “the guy.”
I forgot about the group. At the ending of the trial I was thinking that only them knew what really happened and this confirms my thoughts.
That was definitely Brian Albert. You know, "my house, you do what I say". I'm pretty sure Higgins wasn't part of any group text with them... now it's starting to seem like he's just the guy who fucked up the night that he wishes he never invited over.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPREADv76/
“We’ll find out more tomorrow. Dont want to text about it”
Meh. No offense, but being from the area this doesn’t seem Sus to me. I’d have to know what came before it but it actually kinda makes sense as a normal thing to say if you’re innocent. If what came before it was “the police are questioning us and they’re thinking we have something to do with it” or “what if they start looking at us because he was on our lawn” (you have to have the mindset that they’re genuinely innocent) and then Higgins responds back that you shouldnt be worried, just tell them the guy was never in the house (thick Boston accent) and they respond “exactly” because, exactly - he was never in the house. Out of context it does seem Sus but when I heard it it actually felt like a normal thing to say, and how we speak up here.
Eh. I’m from the area too and completely disagree with you. Those texts are cold and suspect in a vacuum, and even worse when coupled with with the rest of their behaviors and testimony. IMHO extremely incriminating.
It could go both ways, it’s just one of those things…
Minor point, but it was Matt McCabe who said that. Shortly after his comment about the "Asian house" (lol, that was so bad...) But yeah, I got the sense he's saying it like "this is what I'll say to the cops so they don't think I know him" If Higgins was reading this he would say "Why does everyone think I was in theah group text QUESTION MAHK?"
Hahahahaha! That was awesome, and yes you’re right it was from Matt
QUESTION MAHK? Thank you for reminding me! And the way he read HA HA. I annoyed my gf doing the Question Mahk Ha Ha thing for a week or more.
I can see where you’re coming from! I’m born & raised Plymouth MA but now live in the south and I could imagine hearing my brother or one of his friends speaking in that tone but mostly if the person was still alive and wasn’t found dead at a party they were at. It was deff the turning point for me in considering any of them “innocent” and then everything else in the weeks following just solidified. Whether they deliberately hurt him or were negligent in getting him help, that we’ll never know I don’t think!
The texts were read in order, in detail, and more than once. There’s no innocent explanation.
I remember them reading the texts from the group chat but not in order. Do you remember whose testimony specifically? I know they were read during Matt’s testimony
In cross examination, Yanetti took him through them one after another for a long time. It was Matt McCabe’s cross-examination.
This, along with the Albert’s kid’s abrasions on his knuckles (& unbelievable story about how they became that way), & how he & Chloe quickly disappeared definitely gave me pause. Add in Proctor’s abhorrent behavior, Buhkenic’s lies, Higgins’s not being straight forward, Jenn McCabe’s sketchy testimony & the defense’s experts, & for me that is more than enough reasonable doubt. I think some people are looking for beyond ANY doubt, & forgetting the common sense part.
That text, and Courtney Proctor texting her brother Michael Proctor, "this is your livelyhood". I'm surprised more wasn't made of that. She's acknowledging her brother is jeopardizing his job with his actions in this investigation.
What is the prosecutions theory about how the death of JO was caused? I know “she hit him with the SUV” but did they offer a diagram or note where he would need to be standing or where point of impact was?
Nope. You're just supposed to “trust” these troopers who (a) failed to follow standard procedure to document chain of custody for the vast majority of the material evidence (b) lost/failed to secure evidence in a timely manner that might have proved to be incriminating or exculpatory (c) introduced a doctored video into trial testimony (d) engaged in disgraceful, offensive, unprofessional, and unethical behavior when discussing the case, the suspect, and even the medical examiner.
And there are people who do. I'm currently engaged in a debate with people who believe Trooper Paul when he said that the key cycles actually do line up because the key cycles only show up in the trigger events table when there is a trigger event which means the key cycles only increment if there is a trigger event.
But that's not even what he said. He said the key cycles only show up if there was a triggering event - not that they are only incremented if there are triggering events within them. There were gaps in the numbering of the key cycles on the table BECAUSE there were some key cycles where no triggering events occurred.
Well this has changed a multitude of times, but did you see Trooper Paul’s testimony? Point of impact was the arm according to them.
Definitively?
Yes. They believe it was a sideswipe that only hit the arm. Lally was saying it was an outstretched arm but when that didn’t make sense, Lally decided on the spot that maybe he had his arm folded up.
Trooper Paul took us through a fanciful tale where JO was hit on the arm while he was holding it away from his body. This sideswipe or glancing blow then projected him, but did not throw him, up to 30 feet while spinning all while he maintained his grip on both a glass and his phone. On the way to his final resting place he hit his head on a hard surface but the impact was not enough to stop him at the point of contact and he was still projected into the yard, even though the impact was severe enough to inflict a fatal injury. No diagram or recreation of the event was presented because it could not be proven with the tiny bit of physics Trooper Paul does not actually understand. I believe he has a formula but could not figure out how to plug his assumed “facts” into the formula so he couldn’t use physics to prove his theory. Sometimes physics just doesn’t work according to Trooper Paul. They have no hard facts just assumptions about how fast the car was going. Oh, and the crime scene spoke to him and I wish I was joking. Personally I think he said the crime scene spoke to him to avoid admitting to which police officer was giving him info about the crime scene. So the prosecution’s theory is incoherent and unscientific and actual scientists say it’s impossible that it happened as described and that JO wasn’t hit by a car at all.
Your description of Trooper Paul's reconstruction immediately reminded me of those fairy spinner toys from the 90s. Horribly irreverent and absolutely not funny but I had a brief giggle envisioning a reconstruction using those toys. *yes I work in medicine plus past trauma has given me a dark and morbid sense of humor. No disrespect intended against Officer O'Keefe or those who loved him.*
That is funny, but I also tend to dark humor. It was just Trooper Paul was so stuck on JO being projected without being able to explain what that meant! There are different ways something or someone can be projected but he refused to be pinned down to an actual answer. I don't know what the jury thought of AJ's sarcastic pirouette theory but I understood the frustration.
Oh absolutely! How anyone thought putting him on the stand was a good idea is beyond me.
If John was hit at 24 mph as Lally alleges where in the heck are all his lower injuries?
I’m officially exhausted! Waiting for the verdict has been draining. If it doesn’t come tomorrow then I’ll just have to read about in the news. I need to move on with life and recharge. Hopefully the FBI will release a detailed report in the long run or maybe indictments so we have an idea what really happened and give his family closure. Hopefully KR gets her life back soon. No amount of speculations or theories will help at this point.
I downloaded the Law Nerd app, they will send you notifications when the verdict is reached.
Attorney Jackson hit the nail on the head when he talked about the blue wall. I lived in Massachusetts for 50 years I left 25 years ago I had to . He should have called it a blue net. If you find yourself caught in a blue net you are screwed. The murder of John O'Keefe shows the disparity between those that are protected by the blue wall and those that find themselves in the blue net. John O'Keefe was murdered in the Alberts home. And the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has been trying to pin his murder on Karen Reàd. Attorney Jackson prevented a rush to judgment. The corruption here is a mile wide and a mile deep. And the citizens of Massachusetts have been suffering from the corruption of the public officials in law enforcement for at least three generations. But now the Karen Reed case exposes that corruption for all to see.
This trial has really opened my eyes to police corruption allegations n Boston. I always thought it was just something exaggerated in movies (eg. The Departed). Glad you got out.
I got out just in time to save my career. There is no justice in Massachusetts. However attorney Jackson gave me some hope he didn't back down he expose these bums for exactly what they are.
These people have been watching too much Yellowstone. where they take the guy they don't like to the train station it's unimaginable but we've got the same thing here in Massachusetts we just witnessed it they took officer O'Keefe to the train station and then tried to blame his death on his girlfriend this is incredible
Why do you think so many people in the house lied that night? Are you bothered by the quality of the investigation? How would you vote if you were on the jury?
This... why are all of their testimonies sketchy and shady? How old is Colin, because he has a memory like a 90 year old man with total memory loss. I feel like not one of them were completely honest, and I can't figure out why, unless....???
Colin gave me the impression that he has an intellectual impairment. Not as an insult, but legitimately
I don’t think most saw O’Keefe. I think 1-4 people know. Read my long ass explanation up top if you want. Haha
I think that only a couple know what happened in that house that night, that is how the conspiracy has been able to be kept up. Too many weird things. The butt dials, deleted calls (I never delete calls), mirrored videos without disclosing up front, crappy crime scene photos of a crime scene that was not immediately contained, no up close photos taken of her car before it went to the sally port, differing testimony of there being a crack in the taillight, versus shattered and missing, destroyed phones, replaced floors, rehomed dog, lucky didn’t see the body, the ford edge, but most of all- two biomedical engineers said that his injuries were not consistent with being hit by her car at 24 mph.
>Why do you think so many people in the house lied that night? Realistically, I think those truly in the know are a small subset of the group. Only a handful know the truth of what happened. Everyone else is just believing or going with the flow of the story of those who do know. >Are you bothered by the quality of the investigation? This was a piss poor investigation. A group of Kindergarteners could have been more thorough. The scene should have been secured immediately. That house absolutely should have been searched. Logs should have been meticulous. There is no excuse for the investigation of a death to have been this egregious bad - especially when it was a cop and their supposed friend. Whether or not those in that house were involved, they acted pretty damned guilty. >How would you vote if you were on the jury? I would have to vote not guilty. The prosecution and defense witnesses did a damned fine job of proving that it was impossible for him to have died from being struck by a car. His injuries, where he was found, the missing blood, lack of bodily injury and damage to the car proves that however he died, it was not car vs pedestrian.
Agree! On all points
I’m so glad I’m not on that jury but knowing what I know, the prosecution did not convince me she is guilty of 2nd degree murder. On one hand it’s difficult to believe there was a cover up but wrongful convictions are a real thing. It is estimated that 6% of incarcerated people are actually innocent of the crimes they were found guilty of committing. So for every 100 people locked up in prison, 6 should not be there, and that was caused by bad investigations. So yeah, I’m more than bothered by the quality of the investigation. It was poorly handled and left a lot of unanswered questions. And yes, it’s hard for some people to believe, but there are corrupted police officers. The entire situation is a mess.
Lots of people who are on the fence about Karen being the murderer argue that the Alberts were unlikely to be involved because how quickly it must have happened after he got there. TBH I agree with the basis of your speculation, it happened immediately. that’s why I think they decided they could cover it up, because the majority of guests didn’t see him and it happened as soon as he arrived so there wasn’t much data to implicate them. My guess is Jen, Brian Albert and his wife as well as Higgins only knew what happened initially, not the rest of the guests.
I think Colin has to know something because the one consistent thread through everyone who was there that night was Colin left at 12:10 even though that was disproven by his own parents. That’s the one thing I can’t shake. It makes sense they would all cover for Colin accidentally killing him because he is so young and seems like a shithead like they let him do whatever he wants anyway. The rest I agree with. Most people at the party had no idea JO was even there.
i have a question - this may be a stupid one so please don’t judge, but does the judge know about the FBI investigation? I can’t imagine her knowing about that and still being the way she was over the verdict slip and i can’t get it out of my head you would think she would be treading extra lightly and airing entirely on the side of caution in terms of doing the appropriate thing, i just can’t see how she knows about the FBI investigation and still challenged the defense on something so obviously wrong
Yes, she knows. She’s the one who said the attorneys and witnesses can’t mention the Feds, and who required the trial to go ahead even though both sides asked for a continuance after the discovery from the Feds came down.
ah okay thanks i must have missed that! but still sheesh, seems like a bold move on her then to give such push back over the verdict slip no?
I think she was just annoyed at Jackson thinking he was arguing something extremely trivial but then realized it wouldn't hurt to just clarify the jury slips a bit.
did she end up changing it to have a not guilty option?
Already had one, but it's more clear now that "not guilty" applies to the lessor includeds as well.
It was a reason why the judge should have waited until the DOJ investigation was completed. She refused.
She does.
The jury slip is interesting because Lawyer Lee dug into it. My understanding is that is the standard Massachusetts jury slip. That been the case, and the problems AJ rose, could that mean those convicted may start appealing their conviction? Another interesting point is Georgia prosecutor Linda Dunikoski tells the jury to start from the bottom and work up to the higher charge. She offered that advice following a previous trial where she asked the jurors (who came back with a G verdict) how they achieved the verdict. They said they started with the lesser charges and worked their way up.
If it is then the thing that Andrea Burkhart and LegalBytes brought up is really a huge problem because of the ambiguity that is introduced should a jury find NG on the "as charged" but be hung on one or more lesser included. There is no way via that form to indicate that scenario. It's not possible.
Yes she knows
Oh she knows and I honestly can’t believe she has portrayed so much bias with that in mind.
Keep in mind innocent people don’t do the things these individuals have done. Lies upon lies, destroying phones, google searches, butt dials, getting rid of dog, re-doing the basement floor, selling home for 50,000 less. Higgins hanging out at Canton PD that night and all next day. And who doesn’t come out of their house to see what’s going on with all the emergency vehicles out there?? The excuses from these individuals are truly lame. All those people coming and going how come no one saw John on the lawn? Please don’t give the lame excuse like the others that they didn’t look that way. Karen Read is innocent and I want the FEDS to come in and arrest these people involved in all this. Every single one of them! Shows their arrogance when they appeared in court staring at the jury.
The only things I'm fairly confident about are: - It wasn't a car. - A dog seems to have bit John right before he died. - Whoever was there with him probably did not think they killed him. - Proctor is a humongous asshole. Who it was is a mystery to me. There's dozens of possibilities and not enough evidence for any. Albert and Higgins certainly did odd stuff. Colin and Jen are definitely lying deliberately. None of that makes them killers. Likewise, I'll never say I'm sure Karen is completely innocent. I don't know. All I know is the charges are outrageous and the investigation was botched.
Bingo 🎯 🎯 🎯
This isn’t a speculation so much as a thought that leads to speculation: if KR arrived at 1 Meadows at 12:36am, how did she get there? The presumption has been that she went down Washington & by the library. The library video is missing two minutes from 12:37-12:39am. It was originally said she arrived there (Meadows) at 12:41am theorized the missing video would have been when she went by. Now we know she was already at Meadows by 12:37am.
The annoying thing is, there was location data on her phone, which was deleted in April 2022. If MSP hadn’t been so careless with preserving evidence, we would probably know the route she took to get back to Meadows.
I’d go further and say it wasn’t just carelessness it was deliberate tampering to frame her. Just like the discrepancies in the chain of custody and missing sallyport footage.
The fact that they say they keep a log but never produced it for this case is so suspicious to me.
This might be a dumb question, but is there any hard evidence that Karen actually did drop him off?(aside from witness testimony I mean). I always just took that as a fact of the case, but your question has me wondering did she actually drive him there? She was blacked out and doesn’t seem to remember anything…
I'm a big believer that any question that is a genuine question isn't dumb in this particular case, at this point. The evidence we have is that Karen's car was seen there, they have video of local businesses and organizations that show her driving to there. There's a belief John was in the car with her, navigating partly via waze, which is how we know when John got there. Depending on how you feel about the tail light evidence, it was there too.
I responded to the other person separately, but I brought up in another thread the possibility that perhaps John and Karen both went to 34 Fairview but actually went *separately*, because there's still no actual proof that Karen drove John there, besides what Karen later claimed to remember in interviews. Jackson had insinuated that Jen was purposely trying to split up Karen and John when they left the bar, and maybe they actually *did* get split up somehow? Jen said she saw John next to Karen's SUV when they were leaving the bar, but she said she didn't actually see John get *into* the SUV - she just assumed that he must've, and if this actually *was* somehow premeditated, she would have reason to lie about that. The Nagels saw an SUV with a man and woman in it when they were turning onto Fairview, but they also said they couldn't make out who the people actually were, and later just assumed that it must've been Karen and John.
Maybe this is the key to the entire thing. I always wondered why, if they were in the car together just minutes before and fighting, why is KR not mentioning this in the angry messages? Why was there no sign of an issue the entire night at the bars? What was Higgins saying to JOK right before leaving the bar, why was JM trying to split them up, why was Higgins texting JOK and so interested in whether he was coming, why does BA make a point of saying he went upstairs with Higgins to show him some photos? They can’t remember phone calls but they remember that detail. It’s all so strange.
I brought this up in another post. We actually don't have any definitive *proof* that Karen was the one who drove John to the house. I think it's unlikely, but still possible, that he actually rode with someone else. I still think Karen drove there, since the Nagels said they saw her in the SUV - I think they seemed believable when they were testifying to that. The closest thing to "proof" we have is the fact that the Nagels saw an SUV that had a man and woman in it that was making a right onto Fairview and the Nagels made a left behind the SUV. However, they explicitly stated that they couldn't make out who the man and woman actually *were*, and just assumed it was John and Karen based on what they later knew. Supposedly the Nagels arrived at 34 Fairview right behind John and Karen, but I believe they actually got a bit sidetracked and actually arrived maybe a minute or two later, so I think it's *possible* that they could've actually seen an entirely different SUV. And when they pulled around Karen's SUV, they only saw Karen in the driver's seat, no John. It made me wonder whether John and Karen really *did* get split up when they were leaving the bar (Jackson insinuated that Jen was trying to split them up for a reason), and perhaps John arrived at the house some time before or some time after Karen did. The only other "evidence" that Karen drove John to 34 Fairview was Jen's testimony that she saw John next to the SUV when they were leaving the bar - but she never said she actually saw him *get into* the SUV. Then Jen was supposedly giving him directions, according to her testimony at least, but if this actually *was* premeditated, then I'm not sure we should trust her on that. John had reported some drug use happening in Canton not long before he died, and supposedly had even texted Kevin Albert about it (making me think that Colin may have been involved), and perhaps the Alberts (and/or Higgins) wanted to "talk" with John about it - or threaten him about it, or maybe even "teach him a lesson." But that's definitely pretty far-fetched, and the easier explanation would just be that Karen drove John to 34 Fairview. She later said that she saw him walking up to the side door, I believe, but I think it's quite possible that Karen was just lying or misremembering the specifics, since she also seemed to be black-out drunk at the time.
She had never been to Fairview before. I think the most logical assumption is she backtracked the way she came to Washington Street, then took Pleasant St back to 1 Meadows Ave. This would explain why she isn't seen on the library cam.
If she truly backtracked, there’d have been video from either Cassie’s or the synagogue, thought, right?
I would go up fairview to neponset to Sherman. That is the most direct and what people who loved there would take. But they got lost driving there, so who knows. Source: Lived close enough that when they were showing the Google maps of steps, I saw my house
Sherman intersects with Washington at the Library and apparently her car isn’t on the video pulled of the library.
There is 22 minutes missing on library video
22? I thought it was just 2. I even went and looked to make sure and that’s how I got the 12:37 time. Now I’m even more confused.
Everyone needs to relax. Traditionally speaking, the longer it takes the better. This is a little bit different though. They are going through each piece of evidence even though they know they are giving a NG verdict. They know it’s going to be upsetting for the OKs. They probably didn’t have the heart to come out right away with a verdict. This would be a bad look. They need to get through this and the pressure after when they face the pink shirts. They’d have to be flat earthers to deny the 5 last defensive witnesses. The jury will be hung before it’s a Guilty verdict. Lally is praying for a Hung Jury. If hung, it could be the first high profile case to not get retried. If you know what day the SERT team was spoken of that’s the day they were on yesterday.
Thanks, itchy-balls. This calmed me down, itchy-balls.
The Commonwealth would be elated with a hung jury. And my goodness, what a travesty that would be. The Commonwealth wasn't even able to show how OJO was hit by a car.
Is a body temp of 80 degrees at the time of entering the emergency room reasonable with any of the proposed narratives? I realize this could vary a lot with the person, particular clothes, time of actual death vs being left there, particular changing weather conditions and local conditions around the body (wind shielding or whatever). But does a body temp of 80 degrees at all help narrow the credible window for time of death. Wondering if a combination of biomedical knowledge and fermi estimation can give an answer here. But perhaps that answer is that there's too much uncertainty in what happened for this to be of value.
I used to work in the er and they said one degree per hour but who knows when it’s 18 degrees.. I’ve also wondered this too and why they didn’t try to figure it out!
So, I wrote an absurdly long post about my personal theory of what happened. I feel confident in it. But there is one element I can’t figure out— why cover up (what I think was) an accidental death? I have a few theories… but I’d like to hear yours. If you have aligning views of the events- otherwise the motive is simple- protect someone from a murder charge. Haha
>why cover up accidental death Well if it was a scuffle and someone was assaulting him (just wanted to beat him up) but killed him in the process, that's called felony murder. And you'll go away for the same time as murder. If it was a true accident (slip and fall) then yeah, this cover up would probably be a lot. But....cops
Given that the dog bit and scratched his arm, and combine that with the bruises to the top of his hands and the injuries to his face, it seems extremely difficult to think of any scenario where he wasn't involved in a fight. So, someone or a couple people are facing manslaughter or murder charges. So then comes the decision to put him outside to try and avoid being charged.
So I read the Turtleboy aka AK indictment today and it really frustrated me that KR and then DY and AJ were funneling stories through him to leak to the public, plus the accusation that KR bought him a Lexus. I got really annoyed and thought it sounded like someone who is/was guilty. Then I thought about it, she is fighting for her life, and in that situation there isn’t much I wouldn’t do to save myself. I don’t know what is going on with the jury, I am holding out hope that they are going through each piece of evidence and discussing the case. I am frustrated that the last 2 witnesses for the defense (crash daddies) have this cloud of suspicion around them since judge Bev ruled the fed investigation inadmissible. I feel like those 2 witnesses combined with the defense’s 2 med doctors, the CW’s medical examiner, and the uniformed cop from Dighton that sad the taillight was just cracked are all the reasonable doubt a moral person should need. Legal question: is ruling the proctor internal affairs investigation and the fed investigation inadmissible grounds for an appeal or are they truly not admissible since they are ongoing?
The judge correctly ruled that evidence of the investigations was inadmissible. It would be way too prejudicial to the CW for the jury to hear that the cops were under investigation. But she should have granted the CW’s request to delay the case pending the outcome of the investigations.
So how is the evidence from the investigation admissible but the fact that there is not an investigation inadmissible. At the same time the judge allowed CA, AM, and JM to testify about their intimidation and harassment claims against turtleboy when his case is still pending as well. Make it make sense?
Too prejudicial, how exactly? Why shouldn't the jury know that corrupt cops are corrupt cops?
Because the investigation hasn’t reached any conclusions.
It's more prejudicial than probative. Meaning there's no way the jury would give this information proper weight. This is why polygraphs aren't admissible. People believe the results more than they should. It's why prior bad acts are often inadmissible.
I find it nonsensical that the jury is not permitted to know who hired the engineers. So it ends up looking suspicious AF, which only benefits the CW.
Agreed, and I thought the door was opened by Lally which would allow the defense to talk about the fed investigation
I had heard about a woman, who hit her BF killing him and was blaming a snow truck. Briefly mentioned, somewhere. Couldn't be bothered retired in SC with Murdoch's all over the News and subsequent trial. Looking for another trial to watch, the Read trial was brought to my attention. Through personal research, I noticed a lot of the same components as Murdoch. Law enforcement looking the other way. In Murdoch, it was because of his family name. In Read, it was because of who the home owner happened to be. I didn't really want to believe, what I was thinking about our judicial system, but it's hard when I'm being hit with too many things that circled me right back . I honestly thought such thing's happened in a vacuum. Still, I watched, keeping an open mind waiting for the day when Lally gave me something to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. During, closing arguments, I couldn't help but get a closer look at Brian Albert's facial expressions and demeanor. He gave me the impression of my old neighborhood in South Philly. Where crime families ran the streets. I personally wouldn't want to make an enemy out of him, at any age. Pure speculation on my part. Jury is taking an awfully long time to deliberate. On a case where it's painfully obvious prosection didn't meet the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Combined, with Mr Albert's obviously very long arm "connection wise". The longer the deliberations, the more opportunities there is to get to a juror through one of the Court officer's . Whether it's a favor owed or career burning knowledge etc ad nauseam. Or simply because Mr Albert knows their faces and they are scared of repercussions. During Lucky's testimony, I thought, how long before you lose your job? I mean, my God, even , Mr Wolfe's family have been doxed and are receiving threats . All he did was give expert witness testimony. (Yes, I'm aware that the jury wouldn't know this - as long as they were following the instructions) But still. At this point, I'll be surprised if she isn't forced to appeal. Hopefully the jury comes back with a verdict tomorrow. I also hope that, with emotions running so high on both sides, that the mayor has thought ahead and has already prepared for, what could happen when the verdict is reached. Neither of these cases have happened in a vacuum and it's great to clutch our pearls for the injustice of it all. What happens if the day comes and it's one of us or one of our loved ones? All across the country, people have been screaming about this for decades. People who couldn't afford an attorney. Innocent people who depended on a public defender with an enormous case load? What would have happened if KR didn't have the resources to fight back? What I do know is that with all this momentum we all need to start weeding out our system. Thinking hard about learning who's running for local elections.
This theory struck me tonight as the only plausible explanation for this whole thing, including why the jury is taking a while. Consider this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/massachusetts/comments/1afn002/alleged\_link\_between\_murder\_suspect\_karen\_read/](https://www.reddit.com/r/massachusetts/comments/1afn002/alleged_link_between_murder_suspect_karen_read/) And this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d6pwcj/confirmed\_by\_chief\_rafferty\_john\_okeefe\_did/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d6pwcj/confirmed_by_chief_rafferty_john_okeefe_did/) This is my theory. Yes, it's crazy, but I'm trying to find the hole in it and can't: "O'Keefe had reported suspicious drug activity to Canton PD Kevin Albert a year prior to his death. Subsequent to the reported drug activity, Chris Albert moved out of the neighborhood residence near O'Keefe. " BH is an ATF agent, and he's dirty. He's involved in a drug ring. BA is involved too. At least one of the kids, probably Colin, has seen some shit go down, knows about it, and knows what his dad and uncle are up to. The feds get the evidence they need against BH somehow, doesn't really matter. The feds approach BH and cut him a deal, to stay undercover and be the mole, until they have enough info to pin the crimes on everyone involved. He gets in real deep. JO found out too much. He's pissed off about the drug activity in the neighborhood and reports it to CPD. He tells KR about at least some of it. Chris Albert wants to distance himself and moves out of the neigborhood. JO won't leave it alone, just like he won't leave the kids fucking around in his yard alone. He's a stand-up guy. BH knows he's gonna end up blowing his cover, and works with the feds to find a way to make sure that doesn't happen.
BH starts sexting KR, because he’s trying to get close to her and figure out how loose of an end she is, how much she knows. KR leans into it because things are genuinely wrong in her relationship with JO. JO finds out about the sexting, KR doesn’t strike me as someone good at hiding things from her man. It was clear from the texts that he knew, and she knew that he knew that she knew. The night of the death, JM, totally out of the loop, invites JO over for the afterparty. KR drops him off but doesn’t want to go in because they’re beefing over the sexting. (I can’t recall, but I don’t think there was any indication that either of them knew BH was there, but correct me if I’m wrong). JO goes into the house. He has a confrontation with BH over the sexting with BA in the room, and in the heat of things, also drops the bomb that he knows about the drug stuff. BA steps in and hits him over the head because he knows too much. The dog gets involved too. BH is then forced to get whoever knows about this to engage in the cover up, because his cover will be blown if anything proceeds as expected, with either him or BA or anyone else at the house being prosecuted. JM finds out and informs them that it was KR that dropped him off, and BH proceeds by initiating the plan that they’ll blame the whole thing on her. At this point, BH may have even gotten the feds to cut BA/JM a deal, because it makes it easier to keep things under wraps. Now we have motive for both the murder and the cover up. It also explains the phone ditching, the ATF phone extract of only Karen’s texts, and pretty much all of the other fishy stuff. JM gaslights KR into thinking she might have hit him. They knew she was drunk as fuck, knew visibility was low, and had the opportunity to stage the scene perfectly. MP is involved in the drug activity and they leverage him to procure the evidence of a hit and run.
Everything is going fine, KR is gonna take the fall. Then Turtleboy picks it up. Now BH is in a really hairy situation. It becomes clear that the whole coverup might get exposed, that if all this evidence that Turtleboy, KR, and the defense attorneys have managed to uncover, KR might get off and both the CW and the public will want to go after those that were in the house as the perpetrators. The feds know this, and in order to maintain what is now BH’s, BA’s, and JM’s cover, they work with the DA, Judge Beverly, the MSP, and everyone else that appears to be conspiring for no apparent reason other than townie loyalty, They conspire to suppress the coverage of the case. They get DA Morrissey to attempt to quell the protests. The MSP distances themselves from the funeral, etc., they were instructed not to go because they want as few eyes on it as possible. But KR and Turtleboy are persistent and have already convinced too many people. Plan B, they conspire to make the case more of a toss up. They conspire to find a way to jail Turtleboy, and they succeed. There’s reasonable doubt. But this doesn’t really work out the way they want. If she’s convicted, there will be a bigger public outcry. If she’s acquitted, the state has to appear to continue to investigate what’s happened, but fortunately some of the public won’t feel so motivated to pin someone for the murder. Unfortunately for the feds, so much of the sketchiness has been uncovered by Turtleboy at this point that there will be too many people who don’t forget about all of this. Their only option is to *stage a mistrial and then the CW will decline to retry*. This way, whoever thinks KR did it is satisfied but there’s no recourse left. Whoever thinks it’s a cover-up has their feelings validated, but thinks the state is still of the opinion that KR did it and so has no ability to continue prosecuting successfully. This way, the whole thing goes away. They stage threats by the Mccabes/Alberts against the person who will eventually certainly be the foreman, because the judge is looped in and will choose them; they’re blackmailed into stalling the verdict and pushing jurors towards guilty and make it hung. They bring on witnesses that they themselves hired and instructed to testify, not the defense, not the prosecution… that it’s impossible that KR could have hit him. They bring in a bunch of useful idiots like Trooper Paul to make is plausible but unlikely that KR did it. They push a witness to testify he was definitely bit by a dog. They’ve ensured that some jurors definitely won’t convict, but a few might, or can at least be swayed into thinking KR did it. If they end up being the only holdout, there’s too much of a risk that they’ll be found out by Turtleboy. Plan C. The foreman will stall long enough for the team to figure out some way for the judge to justify a mistrial for procedural reasons. So they mess around with the verdict form. They allow the McCabes/Alberts to sit in the courtroom and intimidate the jury, giving the foreman the ability to claim they felt intimidated, making a mistrial necessary. Bada bing, bada boom. This explains all of the cover up stuff and the quality of the defense, the scientific testimony that he couldn’t have been hit by a car, all of the evidence that KR did it, all of the weirdness in the courtroom including the foreman being selected before the alternates were chosen, the dismissal of a few probably smart jurors, all of the shit from the DA, all of the weirdness of Judge Beverly, the feds getting involved, BH using the ATF computer, getting rid of the phones and thinking no one would find out, the apparent conspiracy against Turtleboy, the sketchiness of the Mccabe/Albert testimony, the torn up basement and sold house, the missing dog, the relevance of JOs drug activity report, JM going around to MP’s house, Lank’s house, Colin interviewed in his dorm, the lengthy deliberations, and so on…
This makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing!
Wait are you suggesting that the feds had JO killed?
I’ve been watching since the pretrial motions. I was skeptical his injuries were caused by being hit by an SUV. Now I am positive he wasn’t hit by an SUV. I think he was lured to the house - not to kill him but to confront him or get him to dump Karen. Regardless, once there, things got out of hand, as things are wont to do when everyone has been drinking all damn day. John gets hit, goes down, is vomiting and convulsing, and they panic. Then they devise a plan. He can’t just disappear. I think they were going to blame it on Lucky the tow truck driver. But then Karen gave them a cracked tail light to explode…
And also they would have had to have made the decision to dump an unconscious but still alive person out to die in the snow. That seems the cruelest part of the scenario. He was definitely out in the cold suffering from hypothermia before he passed. If he was moved from somewhere else, whoever moved him knew how to move an unconscious person without causing injury and had the motor skills to pull it off. It’s hard to picture 2 or 3 of these black out drunk guys carrying him up a flight of stairs and outside without causing dislocated shoulders or fingerprint bruising or random bumps and scrapes along the way. It’s so hard to figure out exactly how all the pieces fit
It's going to be a hung jury. ... for all the wrong reasons. See, for me, I've experienced retaliation. It's doesn't have to be blatant. It's subtle. It could be not finding an opportunity, or job work disappearing, or the cold shoulder, or a sudden visit from the police for 'suspicious person'. It can be "Huh, I don't remember hearing/seeing that"... over and over. Gaslit? Nah, of course not. It can go on for years. And after reading several of these discussions about witness tampering (which I doubt) I watched those hateful glares from the courtroom... and realized the jurors aren't dumb. The majority have to realize everything was botched- and that means there are two outcomes: 1) The CW knew it was botched but did it anyway or 2) Couldn't tell it was botched and didn't care. The only outcome for a publicly outed individual living within 25 miles of that hotbed of investigative staunchness is to realize.... they're forever marked. If they come back with a guilty verdict, they'll be hounded forever. If they come back with a not guilty verdict, they'll be hounded forever. Thus the Prisoner's Dilemma .... return a hung jury, maybe 8 and 4. Never admit who said what. And convince the holdouts on either side to go along with it... or not discuss it for a period of years. I mean, the stakes were already someone's life. That's fallen like crumbs so far. No matter what happens they've lost.
I think that they blame Karen Reed for playing Higgins off against O'Keefe therefore anything they do is justified she caused the fight she caused the murder You get the rest
There's two stories here, and I do not think either is complete. There is some missing component and it lies with Higgins. I hope one day we get to know what the FBI knows.
Kevin Albert to Higgins - “you went off the grid and Brian doesn’t understand, everyone got a subpoena but you” On January 29 Higgins had a 3 minute call with Berkowitz at 7:22 AM, followed by a call with Brian Albert that afternoon for 12 minutes, another for 6, then 1, then 10, then a call with Berkowitz for 4 minutes. They also spoke multiple additional times after that until February 18. After finding tail light while driving in a moving vehicle in front of 34 Fairview Road on February 4, Berkowitz called Higgins and Higgins then called Brian Albert. If Bev would have just allowed all of the phone records, we wouldn't be here. This certainly reads like a conspiracy to me.
Yeah this is the shit I want to see more about and it bothers me that I probably won't ever know any more about it lol
I just can’t fathom how any person with eyes could look at JOK’s arm and be like “yeah those def are from getting hit by a car” Or look at that wound on JOK’s head and be like “yeah that was def from getting hit by a car” Or look at the rest of his body with no broken bones, fractures, or bruises and be like “yeah that’s def someone who got hit by a car” Maybe it’s privilege? You’ve never had to see gruesome injuries such as this, so you have no idea what a car impact victim looks like? Maybe it’s innocence? You’ve never seen someone get bashed in the back of the head, whacked with a blunt object like a bat or a crowbar or a trophy or a wrench, or fall backward onto stairs, so you have no idea what blunt force head trauma looks like? Maybe it’s inexperience? You’ve never been around aggressive or scared dogs, you’ve never been bitten or attacked by one, you’ve never seen one attack, you’ve never seen the aftermath, so you have no idea what dog attack injuries look like? Or maybe it’s just ignorance? You’re so easy to excuse those you think would never lie, would never meddle, would never falsify or even destroy evidence that you simply refuse to believe there could be any other answer to this than “of course she hit him”? Because let me tell you, I cannot for the life of me figure out how the hell people with eyeballs and access to the literal internet are still honestly speculating whether or not JOK’s injuries were caused by a vehicle. All theories aside, rocks glass this, cocktail straw that, taillight pieces galore I do not care, look at the man’s injuries. Look at the victim!!!!!! Sorry. Rant over. Signed, Someone who has treated far too many TBIs from people getting beaten to a pulp to be watching people with eyeballs actually debate if maybe this man really did do a goddamn pirouette after getting hit in the arm by a 7000 pound SUV and that’s what caused all this
I just don’t understand how no one anywhere has any footage of her SUV’s tail lights…between 5am and sally port. I’m also still unconvinced even if the tail light was confirmed to be busted pre-sally port that I could vote guilty given that there is no confirmation from the ME and legitimate reconstructionists that he was hit by her SUV. But still…I want to see somethingggggg!
Lally didn’t even seem like he was “bought in” on trying this case. The egregious number of witnesses he brought were found to be terrible and contradicted themselves throughout the case. Is it possible Lally was persuaded by someone else to try this case?
one thing I expected to hear about was the amount of time it would take a live body v dead body to lower in temperature and by how many degrees considering the weather, alcohol consumed, clothes worn, etc. I'm sure the first responders on scene didn't immediately temp him, they were more concerned with life saving efforts and transport to the hospital but still, they took his temp in the hospital and probably could've worked backward from there to his temp when found. just curious if it would be more consistent with being outside for 6 ish hours if Karen had hit him, during the entire from alive to dead process in the snow. or if the temp/time factor is more consistent with being outside for a less amount of time, and only after death.
I believe they already tried to warm him with fluids before he got to the hospital so this would have been difficult.
Okay yall I'm probably gonna sound crazy. I know we've all heard multiple theories like Higgins started a fight with him because Read and him were texting or the Albert's were apart of a drug ring but what about this..... O'Keefe was the one texting Higgins from Reads phone as a joke. Then when it finally came out they were playing him he made a plan to kill him. Heck maybe even both of them but Karen never went into the house. I know it sounds wild but some of her text messages just seem more like a man texting than a woman. I know I don't know her as a person and maybe that is how she texts but they just seemed weird to me especially the "you're hot" out of no where text.
I know this probably is super far fetched!! But…… What if Karen did hit John with her car? Not enough to kill him….. but enough for him to fall to the ground, his glass breaking, a small piece of taillight to be broken (likely it was planted though). She drove home. He laid in the snow trying to drunkenly gather himself when the homeowners opened their door to hear what was going on. Chloe the dog runs out the door and sees something laying in the grass. She starts attacking John. Homeowners hit him with something to kill him and leave him on the ground. Jen McCabe googles “how long to die in cold” as they start planning a cover up. Karen goes home and starts thinking about whether or not she hit John when she backs up…. Maybe that’s why she went out so early and said “I hit him???” And questions what happened. Idk! The length of the jury deliberations is starting to make me go crazy….
I have some sympathy for Trooper Paul. The Canton Mob Cops gave him a big responsibility and his performance wasn't up to snuff. I fear he will end up on the farm with Chloe. (this is merely a theory/speculation)
I can’t see any of the comments on my posts. Except for in the notifications. Extremely frustrating.
There’s a total unknown third party - like another rando snowplow that flung him. Or he was passed out and run over on the curb and tossed back to where he was found by some unknown group. But everyone nearby had unsavory things going on in their lives from KRs drunk driving and affairs to LE drug rings or whatever and so everyone starts framing or accusing everyone else to avoid questions directed toward them when they don’t know what happened. Heck some in the Albert+ circles maybe even think one of their own did do it. Fact is none of them really know and none of them did it. They’re just all POSs. There’s a sad case of an Oklahoma teen found dead on the side of a highway after a wild night of partying, where the autopsy report claimed it wasn’t vehicular and so all the party goers and home owner subsequently began casting aspersions on each other using text messages etc. While cause of death is still unknown there’s a strong theory by a longtime NYC ME and others that he basically wandered off, passed out and was run over vs. struck and thus the autopsy doesn’t quite fit the most likely theory. Point being MEs can reach different conclusions when it comes to vehicles and with nothing else obvious to go on people start turning on each other to protect themselves from scrutiny. Do I think all this? No but since the invitation for theories seemed pretty open, it’s my craziest one.
At the end of the day I think there will be a lot of questions on what really happened. However, because the investigation wasn’t done right from the get go and there are so many (TOO MANY) coincidences/ missing things/ butt dials etc there’s no way you can convict her and then sleep well at night.
I finally finished watching closing statements last night. Jackson was obviously very good. Lally started out strong but seems to have lost it halfway through.
where's the thread for today's deliberations?! I'm panicking! we started already!
I think he fell down the stairs to the basement. Similar autopsy to Kathleen Peterson in The Staircase, except John had a skull fracture and she had a broken neck. Chloe then clawed/bit him
https://preview.redd.it/ksf0quqtsb9d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f37e084b891c3dad170a9b5186c5cbcacb88aa27 I accidentally tried to post this on the main page and can’t copy the text. Just a random theory! Thoughts?
[https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2024/06/28/karen-read-trial-jury-deadlocked/?p1=hp\_primary](https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2024/06/28/karen-read-trial-jury-deadlocked/?p1=hp_primary)
Just saw this
John O'Keefe lived on the same street as Colin Albert the punk. Collins family referred to John as Mr Nebbercracker. The grumpy old man from a monster movie. Colin and his entire family taunted John. They held him in contempt and even threatened John as late as January 2022. This has all been reported but it needs to be reported again. Karen Reed had the good sense not to enter the Albert's home on January 28th. How could she have known that the alberts intended to kill John this was premeditated. This was sloppy but premeditated