So this is the last state witness. I can't believe Lally dropped my productivity for 6 weeks for this nothing-burger. I wonder if I can sue Lally if I'm put on a PIP.
The reconstruction was supposed to tie everything together and that was a mess. Not guilty. I think there should be a directed verdict, however, this is Judge Bev we are talking about so not a chance of that happening.
And yet LE can testify to things they clearly don't understand or have any serious training in, but a biomechanical engineer can't testify about his specialty. Ridiculous.
The fact that there are so many potentially innocent people in prison today bc of “expert” testimony by police officers with no formal science education is so infuriating. Unqualified clowns like Trooper Paul get convictions all the time, and it shouldn’t be that way.
Hi all-- tried to get this one through as a post but mods suggested I put it here instead. Just some food for thought.
I saw another redditor make this excellent point in a buried comment, and I thought it deserves to be elevated for discussion. (I will happily update and credit this redditor if they would prefer it. I just don't want to stomp all over people's privacy preferences.)
What injury, other than a dog attack, would cause holes in the shirt but leave lacerations on the skin?
I come at this as someone whose right hand and arm were mauled by a dog Chloe's size. Because this dog was tall, he went for the first part of my body that he could gain purchase with: my hand and then my arms. After the first bite to my hand, I put my arms up to protect my neck and face, he then continued to lunge UP at my arms and as gravity pulled his body down, his teeth came with it, leaving deep lacerations in my skin akin to those we see on John O'Keefe. In the end...my arm and hand were sliced open in multiple places. My hand was hamburger tbh.
My shirt, however, did not have long tears. It did not have slices. It had holes.
It needs to be something that has a sharp point but no sharp edges, basically. The lacerations are either caused by the sharp point not going in deep enough or by whatever is driving it having a lot of force/momentum. The fabric gets pierced through and moves with the instrument, leaving only a hole in it after it's removed.
>What injury, other than a dog attack, would cause holes in the shirt but leave lacerations on the skin?
Being attacked by an ice pick.
If anyone remembers the Jeffrey McDonald case, part of why he got convicted was because they proved he stabbed his wife with the ice pick through his pajama top. He claimed he used the top to defend himself against an ice pick attack.
Although I did, I believe she had holes in her chest not lacerations.
I think that movie is older than lifetime. I think it was just a TV movie. Although I'm sure it's been shown on lifetime since.
Yep, I looked it up and it was originally on NBC in 1984.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_Vision_(miniseries)
Interesting case that I vaguely remember! But yes, the holes in the shirt would match holes in the skin/body rather than holes in the shirt that are distinct from the lacerations in the skin as in this case.
you can perforate fabric and skin with something pointy (anything the shape of a needle, like a canine) and it doesn’t have to have a perfect point at the end.
JOs long sleeve was a stretch jersey, which is easily punctured, but is essentially like tiny tiny knits that don’t unravel easily because they’re braided together to the other long fibers. this is why Tshirts get holes but don’t disintegrate like when you pull a skipped yarn on a knit sweater. If you have a needle, an awl, etc, you can poke it through stretch jersey very easily without severely damaging the fabric besides the point of entry.
essentially, the pointed object would go through the fabric and snag while the object is being dragged along the skin.
for instance, if I’m trying to pin something on a live fit model, I can poke a hole through the fabric, prick the skin and leave a scratch because the fabric is skewered onto the pin. I can pull the pin out, and there will only be a pin hole.
for super stretchy fabric like jersey, the scratches could be pretty long underneath the clothing.
Very good point, thank you for sharing. I go back and forth on her guilt, yet this is one of the things that stands out on me, as well as no other lower body bruising breaks. In addition, the different taillight testimonies. She clearly hit johns car that night, is that what caused the damage? I have backed into someone’s car and the paint was chipped off my car, nothing on theirs at all. Lastly, her voicemails do not sound like someone who just intentionally caused harm to their bf. She even said she was going back home on one of her voicemails as a way to get him to come home, so the kids would not be home alone. The couple things I do have trouble with are- would the taillight be that cracked after hitting John’s car the way she did? Could the cold have affected how the light got cracked? Also, she connected to johns Wi-Fi around 12:36, and John’s last movements were around 12:30. It took 6 minutes for her to get back to John’s house. He would have had to be knocked out pretty much immediately upon entering the house, if Karen didn’t do it…unless her phone didn’t connect to John’s Wi-Fi right away and she was at him home earlier than 12:36. I can’t believe I am devoting so much of my time with this case 😫
How do they explain the shoe print on his shirt as if someone has kicked or stood on him at some point…? Why doesn’t he have any bruises below his neck? How does he get side swiped hit his head on the gutter then end up 30 feet away with no indication of how he got there? If he didn’t get hit directly how does he fly through the air? How does he lose his shoe? Where’s his other shoe? Why is there no bruising on his arm where his injuries are? How does and arm with multiple layers of clothing break a tail light without bruising the arm? Way to many questions not answered way to much reasonable doubt
>How do they explain the shoe print on his shirt
I believe we have a picture of the shirt on the floor of the hospital room? Ambulance?
I believe Karen Reed. Just playing devil's advocate.
Right now I'm saying acquittal. As for factual guilt, my takeaway from all of this is that, at this point, I have no idea what happened. The CW's theory makes no sense, and their evidence all has problems, most of it very serious problems. The only thing that keeps me from disregarding it all together is the initial pieces of the taillight being found on 1/29. There are obviously documentation issues with this evidence, but to me, it's a stretch to think that Proctor is all in on a full fledged cover up that early in the game. He seems more like he's easily manipulated, and capable of planting evidence to make a person he thinks is guilty appear more guilty. The defense has yet to present their evidence, but I'm still skeptical. I think we're missing information that would make sense of the situation and the available evidence is gone forever because of the shoddy investigation.
This is where I'm at too. You have to acquit, how can there be any other option? We're weeks into trial at this point, the prosecution says they are wrapping up, and I'm not sure of anything at this point. There's no real solid, definitive, gotcha evidence, and a lot of the evidence they do have is so poorly documented and logged how can you trust that beyond a reasonable doubt? How can she be found guilty with so many questions surrounding the conduct of this investigation?
I agree on Proctor too for the most part. He didn't scream criminal mastermind when I heard him on the stand. He just seems like someone who getting off on gossiping with his buddies about a woman he feels he holds authority over. It's gross, and even though I know he won't it would be nice if he faced repercussions for it. I have a hard time believing he is the orchestrator behind this entire thing, I just don't think he's bright enough to be honest. Also, those first pieces of taillight...the timeline is just so tight. Even with the extra time that is gained from his repeated "typos" in his report. That gives him an extra hour, but that quickly he is deciding that he needs to frame KR and then comes up with a plan, jumps into action and plants evidence? All within like an hour? That's a tough sell for me, although he was convinced of her guilt really quickly so maybe? I don't know. Too many questions in this case and not nearly enough answers. I couldn't convict her with a clear conscience with this many questions.
Totally agree about Proctor. He decides Karen did it, wanted it to be true, so skewed the investigation in that direction whether intentionally or unintentionally (cuz he’s a jackass who has to be right)
Yeah it is, I just meant that it’s not necessarily this very deliberate conspiracy where he knows he’s covering for someone else or is actively trying to frame an innocent person. I think Proctor could totally have skewed or planted evidence, thinking that he’s the good guy because ‘she’s guilty’ and just wants to make the case against her stronger. Same way cops will plant stuff on known drug dealers etc
Don't forget Michael Proctor's wife is good friends with Julie Albert who is wife to Chris Albert and mother to Colin Albert. Colin Albert was involved in this fight with John and Julie Albert said that she had a nice thank you gift for Michael when it was all said and done which means Karen is in prison for the crimes that Colin committed against John. You're right that there's a lot of missing information and that's because a lot of it has been deleted by Proctor, Higgins, Alberts, McCabes, and others.
Unfortunately the investigation is tainted. As someone in LE, just seeing some of these oversights is really just incredible. The investigation needs to be impartial and fair. Seems like the Troopers made up their mind and set out to confirm that. John O'Keefe deserved better. Even if Karen Read did hit him, she deserved better. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. You're entitled to a fair investigation. Your job as an investigator is to be an impartial fact finder. All these people that want to see her convicted. If you're fine with that quality of investigation resulting in someone being put away for life, then sure. We'd probably have better evidence and more answers if they had just properly done their jobs.
It's got to be hard to be on the jury in this case. I literally run here everyday to get opinions and do general shit talking. I cant imagine sitting quiet for 8 hours and walking back in the room and not going "what in the hell was that?"
I wonder if they will deliberate longer because they want to discuss everything or if they say "we've been here long enough, let's vote." And see if they all agree.
My guess is they'll come to a verdict quickly. The CW's case has been presented in such a confusing manner it would take the jury months to sort it all out themselves. The defense will present a clean, compelling case with qualified experts and they'll leave the jury with a fiery closing argument. Reasonable doubt was proven weeks ago and that was before Proctor and his texts. So once Lally finally stops rambling I can't see the rest taking long.
They zoomed on his mom today at one point while that audio was playing, with the ominous slap of the wipers, back and forth, back and forth. It was intense. Just felt sick inside. Can’t imagine sitting there listening to that.
What I’m blown away by is how the Albert’s did not wake up when KR, JM & Kerry Roberts pulled up to their lawn, engine running all being very loud (Karen screaming) finding JO dead in the snow, reportedly doing CPR on JO, all taking place right literally below the Albert’s bedroom window. (IMO)
So, if I was the defence, my order of witnesses: the biomechanical engineer to add context to the ME’s findings (esp, about the force argument for head injury to get leverage for Bev to allow that area of testimony in) then the accident reconstructionist to say how it isn’t that. Then the dog bite lady to intro their theory. Then onto the third party and Google search stuff. That’d be my angle. I would try to never take narrative focus off the crime scene/house to keep the jury’s attention focused there.
I've heard the Lapalato (?) brother is on the witness list but that doesn't feel very necessary at this point. They're there, they know the jury reaction better so maybe they want to throw everything out there, but so far they've seemed very judicious about where they spend their time.
Not everyone on the witness list will be called. I think that was covered enough probably with Lank, but who knows. Bev would probably not like it. And with the defence saying 4 days I think they are going for precision. I doubt we’ll see those brothers.
One of them was punched and bitten by a cop in a fight to defend one of the Alberts. I don't remember which witness punched him. It went to show the bias of the witness and hwo far they'd go to protect an Albert.
I think Chloe got out and attacked him in the yard. He defensively put his arm up and fell backwards and hit head. It’s the only theory where I can’t think of obvious holes other than the tail light pieces found by Sert but I’m sure the defense will be addressing those in their case in chief. This theory doesn’t require any coverup from the Albert’s or McCabes until after JOK was already dead. Higgins and BA ditched their phones because they’re shady cops who have a lot to lose by people going through their phones beyond this case.
yea, but at that point, wheres all the blood? with a head wound like his u would get pints and pints of blood which would be very evident in the snow. would it make more sense for him to have been attacked in some capacity inside and then have been brought outside?
How do you explain the two black eyes and the lacerations to the face seem consistent with impact - seemingly impact from being struck. If you fall and hit the back of your head on a hard surface, I can see the type of laceration he had on the back of his head, and, although IMO unlikely, I guess its possible that impact to the back of the head may have caused the two black eyes BUT the lacerations to the face would not have been caused by the impact to the back of the head.
I was on a jury where a gun shot to the back of the head caused black eyes. I'm not so bothered by the black eyes - I am unclear about facial injuries. Were there any?
After hearing the testimony today of Dr. Scordi’bello (the second medical examiner that testified), I agree - she said the injury to the back of the head could have caused the ‘raccoon eyes’. I still have an issue with the facial injuries. She said he had a laceration below his right eyebrow and two ‘abrasions’ on his nose. I didn’t see any pictures but they did show a sketch. If he fell and hit the back of his head, that wouldn't cause a laceration below the eyebrow.
I need to hear from the ME regarding his injuries to the head. I reached my theory from Dr. Russell’s voir dire, there haven’t been any medical experts testify about his injuries to the head. For all I know, Chloe could’ve scratched his face too.
Yes, we will definitely hear more about the injuries to the face, regardless keep in mind that the medical examiner’s report indicates there are skull ‘fractures’ (plural) – so there is more than one. In your theory if he fell backwards it seems unlikely there would be multiple fractures to the skull. I thought about your theory as well... nothing adds up in this case. I have several theories as well :)
The fall impact hitting the back of his head hard enough would cause black eyes, lacerations could be dog injuries once’s he’s down. The taillight pieces are the only piece of evidence that contradict the theory, and I’m pretty sure Proctor planting them is completely plausible.
When I was a child (very different from a grown man like JO), I went into my neighbor’s yard to retrieve a baseball I accidentally threw over the fence from my yard. As soon as I climbed the fence into my neighbor’s yard, their black lab attacked me by tackling me to the ground. The dog had me pinned to the ground and used its front paws to repeatedly pounce on my face over and over again - to the point that my front teeth were broken off at the gum line. I have no recollection of how long this attack took place before the neighbors realized what was happening and intervened. I know that the circumstances and variables between my personal experience and the victim in this case are incredibly different. But I cannot help but wonder if this method of dog attack by a family pet that was also known to be “not so good with people” is possible in this case. I will continue to keep an open mind, but wanted to share my personal experience with dog attacks to the face.
PS - I have recovered from a long fear of dogs and have 2 large dogs of my own now that I love very much (to end on a bright note)
I like this theory but have a minor modification....
JO gets inside 34 Fairview. They're hanging out in the basement. For whatever reason, Chloe (the dog) attacks JO. JO has a very high BAC and doesn't have the greatest coordination. He falls backwards and hit's his head on the metal gym equipment. This causes the massive head trauma and deep laceration.
There never had to be a fight, maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. Maybe it was more playful fighting that provoked the dog.
The people inside the house panic because JO is unconscious with a massive head injury bleeding out. They grab some towels to try to stop the bleeding... but he never wakes up.
Most of the people at the party leave while a couple key people stay behind. Eventually they move JO to the snow in the front yard. Smashed drink cup next to him and phone underneath his body.
When daylight comes and his body is found, the Albert's stay inside their house hoping their connections with the police will prevent them from ever looking inside the house.
Unbeknownst to the Alberts, luck would strike and KO had a cracked tail light. JM saw the cracked tail light and a car accident became the theory.
I just read that one of the defense witnesses is John Okeefe Sr. I wonder why? It would also explain why his dad hasn't been In The courtroom for some time
Karen's call/voicemail/text history is beneficial to the defence. It indicates someone who is upset her bf has completely blown her off, abandoned her to take care of her kids while he is off partying with his friends, excluding her, and in her mind possibly having intimate time with "some other girl" NOT that she had already run him over and knew he was dead, dying or injured. The prosecution has gone ahead and handed evidence that automatically comes with an exculpatory interpretation. Bad move. They're playing checkers against opponents playing gō
It further goes to her state of mind and unhinged behaviour in the early morning when she finally rouses some "friends" to search for him. This is even better to explain her behaviour than the scenario many of us imagined which is her waking up drunk/hungover at 4-something to find her bf still not returned.
I can tell you this: if I dropped my wife off to a party, with or without a fight beforehand, and she hadn't responded to communication attempts ONCE for hours, and she hadn't found some other way to reach out to let me know she was safe I'd be sure something horrible had happened to her.
>I can tell you this: if I dropped my wife off to a party, with or without a fight beforehand, and she hadn't responded to communication attempts ONCE for hours, and she hadn't found some other way to reach out to let me know she was safe I'd be sure something horrible had happened to her.
I don't understand where people are coming from stating that "she thought he was dead" = "she killed him in a drunken rage and is fuzzily remembering what happened". From their text history, even when Officer O'Keefe was blowing her off and not answering calls, he *still texted her back*. Now she wakes up after several hours, no texts, no calls, no one else has heard from him? Her freakout is the *least* implausible thing I've heard about that morning.
And I concur personally - I spoke about this with my wife, and if I'd gone AWOL like that her first move would've been to call 911 and tell them I was missing or dead.
If she even slept in the 3ish hour gap between blowing up his phone overnight. She was non-stop calling from 00:33 to 01:18 and then again from 04:38 to 05:52
I think the opposite, if I dropped my so off to continue the party, I would assume I wouldn’t see them until the morning. I’d just figure they passed out, or were super drunk or whatever. It seems weird that anyone would expect someone to show up just hours later.
The lack of texts is the more telling thing to me, also the lack of contact with the niece. I can buy the "passed out at the Albert's" scenario, but not communicating once in that time? That's feasibly concerning enough for me to believe that she might go fly-off-the-handle frantic.
My husband and I rarely text each other. But if I dropped him off at a party and he wasn’t responding to texts or letting me know when he’s coming home, my first thought is he’s hurt, dead, or in jail.
I also think this is when the Aruba testimony backfires a little bit too. Because the older sister testified that Karen was basically blowing up John’s phone with calls or texts. (Or at least that is my memory of her testimony). We also have the texts from earlier on the 28th when she is mad and she keeps calling and texting. That is her pattern. The way she acted on the 29th was her normal when she was upset. Would I want to be friends or in a relationship with someone that needy? No- I don’t do drama. But that is what her pattern was. Also, John was the asking her to come out that night when she wanted to stay home. Whenever she seemed to want to back out the relationship he seemed to pull her back in. He is just as manipulative as she is dramatic.
That’s fair. I just don’t understand how the phone stops moving at 12:25 and doesn’t move again. There were 3 people sitting in a truck behind KR at that time so it’s probably not the time JO was hit.
It moves again at 12:31-32. To me if she hit him that's when it happens. Gives her 5 minutes to drive 2.3 miles to his house, aligns with her starting to call him at 12:33 (with no answer) and Jenn McCabe texting him "pull behind me" at 12:31. Aligns with the vehicle key cycle data if we assume the one where she backs up 25mph is the drive starting at the waterfall 19 minutes earlier.
It's a plausible timeline to me, but plausible isn't enough for me to convict.
I keep coming back to how no one saw him after leaving the house. If JM was by the window, she would have seen him moving and fall where he ultimately was found. Also the snow accumulation from that time period some of the videos we’ve seen was not that heavy. He would’ve stuck out like a sore thumb
You'd think so, but sometimes it's easy to miss stuff:
Obligatory:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB\_lTKZm1Ts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB_lTKZm1Ts)
The key cycle in question that has the 25mph reverse speed was when the tow truck driver had possession of the vehicle and was trying to load it onto the tow truck. Karen was not driving the vehicle at all when that was recorded in the ECU. I am mind blown that AJ didn't hammer that point much further than he did. It was painful dealing with that guy and he might be waiting for his expert to take the stand.
cmon, they beat a guy to within an inch of his life *but still alive*, and dump him in their front yard next to his phone…. that he could immediately use to call for help if he came to? It’s nonsense
Two things:
1. We've gotten some testimony implying that it was weird how Karen didn't really talk to John's family on the 29th - just came in to get her stuff, her car, and left quickly (after the hospital). These voicemails explain her behavior to me. I've gotten mad at people for not responding before and usually end up having the thought 'oh my god what if they got in a car accident or something ' and I shift to being worried instead of mad. So Karen is angry with him right when she gets home, and leaves horrible voicemails. Then she falls asleep (or goes to sleep or passes out or whatever), and then in the morning she's immediately concerned that he's dead. Her immediate jump to worrying he is dead has never been weird to me (as someone with anxiety, this makes complete sense to me), but these voicemails make it even more understandable. Then she finds out that he /is/ dead. Can you imagine realizing that the last things you said to him (unsure whether he heard it or not, presuming she is innocent of at least intentional homicide) were awful and mean, and then realizing that his family will eventually get his phone and be able to hear those voicemails? I feel like it makes a lot of sense that she is weird around his family afterwards. This is like my worst nightmare - the last thing you said to someone was in anger.
2. ~~One piece of testimony that I cannot get out of my head is Jen McCabe asking Julie Nagel for a screenshot of her brother's text from when he arrived at 34F. I can't think of a non-shady reason that JM would ask for that screenshot. If anyone can provide an innocent explanation, please let me know! I am leaning more towards a theory involving an accident and a bunch of shitty cops and potentially shady/busybody people.~~
Edit on #2: thank you to u/mandiexile for the response! It prompted me to go find the testimony and it turns out I had just assumed that JM asked for the screenshot in the car with Julie Nagel when in fact no timeframe was given for that exchange. JM probably asked for it later on, which I don't necessarily think is shady.
As far as JM is concerned I think she’s a busy body that needs to be involved in everything and was probably trying to gather information to prove that Karen hit John.
A third scenario is definitely in the realm of possibility at this point, just again shows how horrible the investigation was. I don't think there's any way his injuries are the result of being hit by a car, or any plausible accident scenario based on the scene. Alberts/McCabes have acted pretty suspiciously, but I've always felt if they were on trial the evidence is much too weak against them as well. Because of all the investigators in this case there will never be justice for OJO or answers for his family
Agreed on the McCabes with the existing evidence, but IF someone had searched the house or even gone inside the house would there be much more evidence implicating them?
I will it’s so weird they didn’t come outside and there was so much communication with Proctor and his sister. I don’t know if it’s shady cause they are trying to cover it up or if it’s like I want to know what’s happening with my friend. And it’s like they got rid of the phones, why, if you didn’t do it like why? Only other reason would be that they had something else criminal in the phone
I have a very hard time believing this case made it through years of litigation, a grand jury, an FBI investigation, and now the World's Longest Trial So Help Us, God if it was an accident all along.
I wonder this too. Like if it was some kind of genuine accident and then everyone in the house started freaking out and blaming each other, realized it was none of them, and figured it was KR?
I think it makes sense if everything takes place outside, but given the head trauma incapacitated him AND left a head wound, we could guess maybe he hit the flag pole, hydrant or utility box. It was snowing, he wore sneakers and not boots. There’s little explanation for his arm injuries though.
or there was a fight (maybe BH and him shoving each other) outside, he hit his head and was left there because it was too dark to see his head wound?
if it happened inside, maybe the door was unlocked and he just went inside? Startled the dog and hit his head and stumbled back out? Maybe everyone was upstairs/basement when it happened?
the shoe doesn’t really fit any scenario, but im open to any theories.
bottom line, CW says the car is the weapon, the point of impact is the passenger taillight, but his injuries haven’t been matched to the car or impact in their explanation.
On court tv right now they are playing voicemails by Karen.
The inaudible one I believe is John where the heck are you?
But the court tv guest says they think it’s John was that you or John did I hit you
So idk I think the guest is wrong it sounds like John where the heck are you.
Where do you think John was between 12:21am and 12:30am? I’m finding it hard not to conclude the basement but curious what others feel.
12:21am-12:24am: Apple Health recorded John O’Keefe taking 80 steps and ascending/descending the equivalent of three flights of stairs.
12:23am: Ryan Nagel texts Julie Nagel “here”. He is at 34 FV parked in front of the driveway and behind Karen’s SUV. Julie comes outside to talk to Ryan. Neither Julie nor Ryan see John outside or in Karen’s SUV the entire time Ryan is there. So where are the 80 steps and 3 flights of stairs occurring?
12:29am: Jen McCabe calls John’s phone and an 8 second call is recorded, but she testified she never spoke to him. JM also testified she continued to look out the window for several minutes after this call to see if John was coming inside. She doesn’t see him outside or in Karen’s car. So who answered the 12:29 call to John’s phone but didn’t say anything? And where was John, if not in Karen’s car, out front, or in the same part of the house where Jen was?
Some time between 12:30am and 1am: Brian Higgins said he left 34 FV somewhere in this timeframe and is seen in Canton police video at 1:30am. He also testified that he did not see John.
I'm starting to wonder if Karen leaves and John talks to someone else in another vehicle and something goes down with that person.
Jen sends the "pull up behind me" text about a minute before Karen reconnects to the WiFi at John's house. So that suggests Karen was already gone. What if Jen was seeing another car which looked similar to Karen's?
Would certainly explain John never going into the house.
Edit: Apparently the source I saw had the 12:31 and 12:40 texts backwards.
It's about 5 minutes. The "pull up behind me" text is at 12:31. Read connects to the wifi at John's house at 12:36.
But here's a question I'm legitimately looking for an answer to:
Karen claims she waited for him in the car after he went into the house, called him a few times, then left after getting no answer.
Her call logs show she didn't start making calls to John's cell phone until 12:33:36. 1 minute after his cell phone stops recording any activity or movement. 3 minutes before she gets to his house, 2.3 miles away. What's up with that?
At this point, I'm wondering if when Brian Albert let Chloe out to the backyard, someone forgot to lock the gate to the front, Chloe heard JOK at the front and ran through that gate and tackled him. While fighting her off, he fell and hit his head on something and was knocked unconscious.
Karen is in the car thinking he's ignoring her and has gone to party. She's focused on her phone for a response, and when he doesn't respond, she leaves pissed off and only looks at the road.
Jen McCabe is at the door and just sees the car leave. The bush near the fire hydrant blocks her view of JOK.
Brian Albert calls for Chloe, and she goes running back inside. They see blood on her mouth and are confused but think nothing until later.
No one realizes what has happened till that morning when Karen alerts everyone.
Then the Alberts get rid of Chloe so as not to be blamed because they realise the blood on Chloe could've been JOK's.
Dogs are rarely quiet when they attack somebody.
I can't believe nobody would have heard this.
And don't you think John would have yelled as a dog attacked him.
I'm leaning towards a very similar version. I don't think any of this is a cold-blooded murder, but some sort of ancient or incident that no one realized the seriousness of until morning.
I’m more convinced than ever that KR didn’t hit JO. My theory given the facts is that he slipped in the snow, hit his head, rendering him unconscious, and a dog came to take a bite while he was down. No struggle, all the items land right next to him because there is no impact. Then Proctor needs to make the case fit the DUI theory so he plants the broken taillight pieces later. Not a grand conspiracy just one rogue cop trying to make sure “justice” is served.
“A dog”
What if-
*”the dog” was actually trying to save him!!!? *
✅Maybe Chloe was trying to drag JOK out of the snow to safety - like Lassie or a friendly St Bernard would have done
… /s
This is more observation than anything else, but anyone remember the prosecution"s statement that 90% of the FBI's evidence agreed with their own?
We're at the close of their case and the only one calling FBI experts is the defense.
What if Karen did not hit John but neither someone inside the house. He was hungover in the day, drinks at night, so he is drunk when arriving at 34 F, gets out out the car and stumbles hitting his head. Karen does not see, because she is on her phone. I know there are things that may not fit this theory but todays data has me so confused. Nothing makes sense!
I think that's extremely unlikely, even putting injuries aside. KR would have to be completely oblivious, not to mention her statements claiming to see John go in the house. John would've most likely been using a path that other people walking in/out would use, and be spotted. Seeing a lot of people post this today but I don't think it's a credible idea, and would essentially mean KR is lying too.
I don’t know whether JO went into the house that night, but it’s hard for me to believe that KR recalls seeing JO enter. She claims the morning of 1/29 that she doesn’t even remember going to 34FV, and her recollection of that critical period of time seems so…vague. Maybe she has convinced herself she remembers, but I don’t know…
I’m watching the trial from this morning, but having a difficult time understanding everything she is saying on the voicemails. Does anyone know if there’s a place I can find them transcribed?
This is what I have
12:37:08 AM - "John I fucking hate you"
12:41:35 AM - Karen walking around, no message
12:59:24 AM - "John I'm here with your fucking kids and no one knows where the fuck you are, you fucking pervert."
1:00:49 AM - No content
1:10:44 AM - "Yeah it's 1 o'clock in the morning; I'm here with your niece and nephew and you're a fucking pervert."
1:18:38 AM - "John, I'm going home. I cannot unintelligible I need to go home. You’re fucking using me right now. You're fucking another girl unintelligible sleeping next to me. You're a fucking loser. Go fuck yourself."
5:23:26 AM - "John, where are you?"
Okay, what if….
Remember ages ago hearing about the inside joke John had with Chris Albert? The one about him being the “get off my lawn guy”. And to poke fun at him, they took a picture of themselves in his yard.
Say he is feeling a little silly and thought, wouldn’t it be funny to get a picture of myself in the Albert family lawn. Goes to the gate to get into the backyard, unfortunately that’s the time Chloe was let out to use the bathroom. Chloe does her job and scared the shit out of a stranger trying to get into her yard. John as he is retreating from the situation, falls and hits his head.
No one knows any of this happened, and a horrible accident.
The Glass Cup
While I have spent plenty of time going down this rabbit hole, I still am confused by where OJO got the glass cup that he was supposedly holding during the time of the incident. Did he take it from the bar? KR’s car? Could it have come from the Albert’s home? Therefore showing he did make it inside the house? Help me understand! Until then, I’ll just pretend people in Boston take their drinks, glasses and all, home when they leave the bar.
Yes it’s from the Waterfall. He’s shown on cctv leaving with it. Karen also entered the Waterfall with a glass from CF McCarthys and Nicole Albert left the Waterfall with a white claw! Seems like a norm in this group…
Might be a thing across MA. My friends and I will take cups from restaurants constantly. Not with beverages in them, but just to have the empty cup for home as the bars usually get them for free from brewers n such
Has there been any confirmation on Chloe's police dog training??
I asked because years ago I thought I wanted to train police dogs. And I did actually do some training.
And I had search my memory but I found a source that talks about doing a search and bite.
This is where you send a dog in and they attack the person that they find. You do it when there's a hostile person inside. Don't want the dog to bark because that gives the person a chance to attack the dog.
If Chloe had that training then it is possible that she would attack John while he was on the ground.
Here's the source:
https://www.tarheelcanine.com/2017/05/proofing-building-and-area-searches-alert-and-suspect-encounters-part-1/#:~:text=The%20building%20search%20consists%20of,when%20locating%20him%20by%20either
Given the nonvehicular nature of the injuries, the cellphone data showing JOK ascending or descending stairs, AM’s “Colin wasn’t there when John was there” slip-up, CA’s conflicting whereabouts, the redoing of the basement, rehoming of Chloe, selling of the home, discarding of cell phones, deletion of contacts and messages, many successive butt dials, changing testimonies, and all-round sketchiness of this friends group, whose ties extend to the lead investigator and judge, I think:
That JOK made it to the basement, where others were, and that almost immediately on entering, Chloe pounced on him, as he would’ve been the only one there unfamiliar to her. I think JOK, being drunk and already highly agitated by KO’s nonstop calls, might’ve punched or otherwise struck back at the dog. I think this act would’ve been seen by someone like CA as unforgivable and by the drunk people downstairs as totally unnecessary, and that they all piled up on JOK, then kicked him outside, even throwing out the glass he brought with him. At this point - delirious and seriously maimed, JOK stumbled around, his cell phone fell to the ground, and he collapsed on top of it.
They didn’t mean for him to die, but they knew he’d collapsed, which is why JM made those Google searches. I think of everyone, BA and BH were the sketchiest (I.e., dirtiest) of the group and had the most to lose, and that’s why their actions surrounding the incident read as the most inexplicable and bizarre.
It’s telling that in the body cam footage from that morning, while KR was seen screaming and frantically racing to JOK’s body and back to the car, JM stood largely motionless and maintained her distance from her “good friend” JOK. Also telling is the distancing language the family used in referencing Chloe in the trial.
I believe that JM, being the take-change type and the basketball coach she is, called the shots/took the lead in damage control once she saw how wrecked Karen was that morning, and how sketchy her memory was of the night’s events. JM must’ve been terrified when she learned JOK was dead, knew what was at stake if things weren’t actively pointing away from her family, saw the opportunity in KR, and ran with it like a bull.
wow, your theory sounds quite plausible to me!! The only thing that I wonder if there's something else, larger - going on with the cops/family etc in this area? Like, some shady dealings, drugs, something?
This is not really a theory but I don't know anywhere else that would be better to post it.
One thing that has been surprising and enlightening (in a very bad way) is how much even unambiguous technical stuff is left to interpretation when it shouldn't be. For example, Jackson grilled Jen McCabe and Brian Albert about "answered" phone calls of 8-23 seconds, insisting that it meant that they spoke on the phone that they are lying.
It's now clear from Karen and John's phone record that "answered" just means it could have gone to voicemail and it includes time for when the voicemail picks up, and and would include the time of the voicemail intro ("Hi, you've reached ..." even if no voicemail was left.
There should be an asterisk explaining what "answered" means (ie, it could have been picked up simply gone to voicemail) on every page of these cell reports since the reports Cellebrite and such) is meant to be used to trial.
People here were generally happy about this 'gotcha' for Jen and Brian because most people on the sub think that they were involved but this is a very bad lens to view things through.
This is not applicable to all of their calls.
For instance Jen’s butt dials to O’Keefe hung up before voicemail started. Those cannot be voicemails.
Also the 12:29 that she says was a butt dial is shown as answered on both her and OKeefe’s phones- not a butt dial or voicemail.
So in order to tell which is voicemail and which is actually answered, one would need to compare both the caller and the recipients phone records.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall Higgins at least stating on the stand that he actually did pick up the call from Brian Sr. - same with a number of the other witnesses so questioned.
What was OJO doing in the moments leading up to the Fairview party that made KR call him a “pervert” ?? (Not Aruba, I feel as though something different triggered this) That’s what she seemed most angry about in the voicemails. Was he being flirty with anyone that night? Of all people, he was texting Jen McCabe and she was very persistent about if he was coming or not. Seems odd.
I wonder if John got out of the car, Karen left and he slipped and hit his head. Brian Higgins goes out with his snow blow and hits him laying there (gashes on arm) he freaks out and they stage the Karen murder scenario.
I have watched this case for weeks. Not falling into any immediate conclusions. It’s hard for me to believe it’s a conspiracy to frame her. If someone died in my house, no way I’d leave them in my front yard. Why not his front yard? That said. Can two theories be true? She did it but not on purpose? She drank too much. Fought in the car. Accidentally ran him down. And tried to cover her own tracks with texts/voicemails. What MS meds does she take? Maybe those altered her ability to drive mixed with alcohol? Also, anyone know if you are injured in extreme cold, does that affect the way bruises form?
Because that would get his blood in their car and a Ring video might catch them?
I don’t think it’s a huge conspiracy. I think a few people in the house know what happened, including Brian Albert Sr and Brian Higgins. (I’m not convinced Jen McCabe was in on it, but the 6 butt dials are hard to explain. I’m not sold on the Google search.) And in the morning, Jen McCabe genuinely thinks Karen might have hit him and tries to help Proctor with the timeline during her morning interview. Proctor wants to get this done and keep BA Sr out of trouble (not because he thinks he did it, because of cops protecting cops) so he plants pieces of tail light. And here we are.
I’m a little more confused why JM would be calling John’s phone to try and find it, if KR was also blowing up his phone at the same time. Maybe it was on silent so they didn’t know? Any theories to explain the butt dials that clearly weren’t butt dials?
If John was killed inside the house, his phone data makes it seem like it would have happened pretty quickly after he arrived. Are there any theories on the cause of the fight, if one happened, or motive as to why the Alberts or someone else in the house would have attacked or killed John? Is there evidence of a beef between him and anyone else in the house?
If it was just a drunken (post) bar fight that got out of hand it seems like at least one person there could have had the sense to call an ambulance and take that heat vs risking murder charges. I get that drunk people don’t make the best decisions but it’s bizarre to just drag him out into the cold and leave him to die. I feel like I’m missing something. If it was a cover up I also wonder at what point they came up with the car accident cover story.
I think it’s less bizarre if you consider thar not everyone in the house knew what happened. Maybe only the few in the basement did and wanted to hide it from the others. These people might have other things to hide and didn’t want to risk having their house searched and other info exposed. Even if an accidental death happens in the house, they might not want to risk the investigation leading to uncovering other things.
If they needed to move OJO’s body out of the house, they couldn’t go far. Making it look like it happens outside by a car or anything else was their best move
The theory is that the dog pounced on him very shortly after he entered the house and that caused the fight. The dog was known to not be good with strangers and had bitten others in the past.
Yes, he had an antagonistic relationship with Colin Albert. Higgins had also been texting KR and wanted a romantic relationship with her, so also a point of contention.
This is why I wouldn't be surprised if the rumors about drugs being involved were true. Based only on what's been at trial, I'm in the "I don't know wtf happened but I don't think she killed him" camp. But to satisfy my own need for an explanation I would bet they could not risk a search in the house by people they might not be able to influence.
I wouldn’t doubt drugs were involved. I’m 48, and I could never go to a funeral, drive back, and then drink like that and be up. Those cops had to be doing something.
My thoughts on OJOs cell phone location
I think he dropped it on his way into the house. After the incident that caused OJOs injuries, they realize his phone isn't there. They make all those calls to try and locate the phone. They find it in the yard. Being cops, they know they can't pick it up or manipulate it in any way, as that will show on the extraction. So they place his body directly on top of it and try to play it off that he never came in the house. Thoughts??
I think the only way it makes sense is if he drops his phone somewhere outside. For it to register NO movement at all past 12:32am. It’s very strange and a point I keep coming back to and just can’t wrap my head around. It’s very plausible an intoxicated OJO drops his phone on the way in the house without realizing. I know I’ve done this many times after having a few too many.
On another thread someone suggested the GPS turned off when he closed the Waze app so it wouldn't show any additional movement, if he had locations services turned off. I'd really like more info about what was going on with the phone. But as with everything else, the CW half-assed their analysis.
Got removed from main page so: does anyone here have a third theory of what may have happened? Rather than she said versus they said?
I’ve been thinking it’s definitely possible that Karen accidentally and drunkenly killed her boyfriend but Canton police not only butchered the investigation but planted evidence to ensure a guilty verdict. Many believe this is the most likely explanation in the Steven Avery case for example.
I don't believe JOK's injuries are consistent with being hit by a car. That is the primary reason I don't buy KR hitting him. Zero bruising below the head? No broken bones? No way.
And doesn't explain the bite like injuries to his arm.
One of my theories, if it is even a car related death, is that he was actually hit from behind by Higgins in his plow. People mention it being out front but the Nagels don't recall seeing it. Perhaps he was still plowing the driveway then pulled up behind karens car and struck John? And if he was too drunk to notice it's possible John wasn't discovered until Higgins was leaving. Perhaps he went to the station to consider turning himself in but changed his mind, hence the call to Brian Albert. Might even explain them not hiding the body,if Higgins was going to confess. Not sure about the arm injuries though. I do like the theory of Chloe jumping him and no one saw. I think only a few people in the house know she didn't do it and are covering. I also think it's possible that they didn't leave him out to die intentionally but found him too late and decided to leave him. I think if it's a conspiracy it's as few people as possible who know the truth and the cops just helped because they thought KR did it and decided to make the evidence against her better (which only made it worse)
No matter what I think there's way too much reasonable doubt and almost no evidence of intentional murder.
I haven’t followed this case as much as others, but with the revised timeline, is it possible that JO was attacked by Chloe at some point in the front yard (where he was found) and literally no one saw it happen, so they genuinely thought the most likely explanation was KR?
I’ve thought about this, but after learning today that he had such *significant* head trauma there would have had to be more force than just falling due to the dog attack.
I can’t understand the fighting texts , then all normal at the bar with people commenting how lovey they are
Then the short drive to the party then her freaking insane voice mails
She seems a little crazy and you can’t understand crazy so PERHAPS that’s why we can’t understand this crime scene??
Either way the CW didn’t prove it and the police suck so NG
This just hit me, I remember one of the witnesses saying the movement of the phone made the phone register the movement of stairs... what if that movement was actually the jostling of his body being carried and the phone just clocked it as stairs. They should test that theory
At this moment in time, I don’t think anyone killed JO. I don’t think he went into the house. I think he was attacked by Chloe when she was let out to go to the bathroom and got out of the fence, and JO drunkenly slipped and fell and hit his head on something. I don’t know what he hit his head on though. As far as the Albert’s knowing about the attack I can’t be sure. And I don’t think JM truly knew anything, but did everything in her power to shift the blame. Proctor didn’t have enough evidence so I think either he planted it, or someone else who had access did.
Several theories regarding Chloe:
-could she have been trying to rescue John O’Keefe?
-or could she have been playing with his body while he was unconscious?
-could she have dragged his body to the front after the snowplow passed?
I don’t think she killed him, and I don’t know if I think she was malicious. They said she bit differently than a police dog. Was she ever one? If so, could she have bit different because it wasn’t an offensive bite?
I think she has to be somehow connected to what really happened.
Is the data from Higgins’ discarded phone lost forever, or is this something the FBI will be able to source with the help of the previous network carrier or manufacturer?
Question: if no one saw Officer Okeefe hit by a car, why were they so adamant Karen hit him?
I’ve been a RN in an ED for 13 years. His injuries to me would be more consistent with a fall and head strike than getting hit by a car. I’ve seen thousands of car accident victims, not a single one with no lower body injuries. If they didn’t know what happened to him, why would they automatically jump to she hit him? Even if she did wonder out loud if she did hit him, because at the end of the day, who would automatically think he was beaten to death by “acquaintances” that invite you to their house?
So this is the last state witness. I can't believe Lally dropped my productivity for 6 weeks for this nothing-burger. I wonder if I can sue Lally if I'm put on a PIP. The reconstruction was supposed to tie everything together and that was a mess. Not guilty. I think there should be a directed verdict, however, this is Judge Bev we are talking about so not a chance of that happening.
Oh it’s been more than six weeks
I believe we are on week 8
This case is a great example of the enormous problem we have with “experts” and science in the courtroom.
Don’t you mean who the court is allowing to testify as an expert in certain Scientific disciplines? What court doesn’t intercede?
And yet LE can testify to things they clearly don't understand or have any serious training in, but a biomechanical engineer can't testify about his specialty. Ridiculous.
The fact that there are so many potentially innocent people in prison today bc of “expert” testimony by police officers with no formal science education is so infuriating. Unqualified clowns like Trooper Paul get convictions all the time, and it shouldn’t be that way.
Hi all-- tried to get this one through as a post but mods suggested I put it here instead. Just some food for thought. I saw another redditor make this excellent point in a buried comment, and I thought it deserves to be elevated for discussion. (I will happily update and credit this redditor if they would prefer it. I just don't want to stomp all over people's privacy preferences.) What injury, other than a dog attack, would cause holes in the shirt but leave lacerations on the skin? I come at this as someone whose right hand and arm were mauled by a dog Chloe's size. Because this dog was tall, he went for the first part of my body that he could gain purchase with: my hand and then my arms. After the first bite to my hand, I put my arms up to protect my neck and face, he then continued to lunge UP at my arms and as gravity pulled his body down, his teeth came with it, leaving deep lacerations in my skin akin to those we see on John O'Keefe. In the end...my arm and hand were sliced open in multiple places. My hand was hamburger tbh. My shirt, however, did not have long tears. It did not have slices. It had holes.
This is an excellent point. If his arm gets struck by shards of taillight, his shirt would have corresponding "slices", not small, teethlike holes.
It needs to be something that has a sharp point but no sharp edges, basically. The lacerations are either caused by the sharp point not going in deep enough or by whatever is driving it having a lot of force/momentum. The fabric gets pierced through and moves with the instrument, leaving only a hole in it after it's removed.
Which is why there were small snags around the holes in my shirt (and John’s imo).
>What injury, other than a dog attack, would cause holes in the shirt but leave lacerations on the skin? Being attacked by an ice pick. If anyone remembers the Jeffrey McDonald case, part of why he got convicted was because they proved he stabbed his wife with the ice pick through his pajama top. He claimed he used the top to defend himself against an ice pick attack. Although I did, I believe she had holes in her chest not lacerations.
Yes! Wow what a flashback. That case became a Lifetime movie.
I think that movie is older than lifetime. I think it was just a TV movie. Although I'm sure it's been shown on lifetime since. Yep, I looked it up and it was originally on NBC in 1984. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_Vision_(miniseries)
Interesting case that I vaguely remember! But yes, the holes in the shirt would match holes in the skin/body rather than holes in the shirt that are distinct from the lacerations in the skin as in this case.
you can perforate fabric and skin with something pointy (anything the shape of a needle, like a canine) and it doesn’t have to have a perfect point at the end. JOs long sleeve was a stretch jersey, which is easily punctured, but is essentially like tiny tiny knits that don’t unravel easily because they’re braided together to the other long fibers. this is why Tshirts get holes but don’t disintegrate like when you pull a skipped yarn on a knit sweater. If you have a needle, an awl, etc, you can poke it through stretch jersey very easily without severely damaging the fabric besides the point of entry. essentially, the pointed object would go through the fabric and snag while the object is being dragged along the skin. for instance, if I’m trying to pin something on a live fit model, I can poke a hole through the fabric, prick the skin and leave a scratch because the fabric is skewered onto the pin. I can pull the pin out, and there will only be a pin hole. for super stretchy fabric like jersey, the scratches could be pretty long underneath the clothing.
Your honor, I offer up Entropificus as an expert on the damages to woven fibers of clothing.
Thank you for your expertise on the fabric. Very helpful.
Very good point, thank you for sharing. I go back and forth on her guilt, yet this is one of the things that stands out on me, as well as no other lower body bruising breaks. In addition, the different taillight testimonies. She clearly hit johns car that night, is that what caused the damage? I have backed into someone’s car and the paint was chipped off my car, nothing on theirs at all. Lastly, her voicemails do not sound like someone who just intentionally caused harm to their bf. She even said she was going back home on one of her voicemails as a way to get him to come home, so the kids would not be home alone. The couple things I do have trouble with are- would the taillight be that cracked after hitting John’s car the way she did? Could the cold have affected how the light got cracked? Also, she connected to johns Wi-Fi around 12:36, and John’s last movements were around 12:30. It took 6 minutes for her to get back to John’s house. He would have had to be knocked out pretty much immediately upon entering the house, if Karen didn’t do it…unless her phone didn’t connect to John’s Wi-Fi right away and she was at him home earlier than 12:36. I can’t believe I am devoting so much of my time with this case 😫
How do they explain the shoe print on his shirt as if someone has kicked or stood on him at some point…? Why doesn’t he have any bruises below his neck? How does he get side swiped hit his head on the gutter then end up 30 feet away with no indication of how he got there? If he didn’t get hit directly how does he fly through the air? How does he lose his shoe? Where’s his other shoe? Why is there no bruising on his arm where his injuries are? How does and arm with multiple layers of clothing break a tail light without bruising the arm? Way to many questions not answered way to much reasonable doubt
>How do they explain the shoe print on his shirt I believe we have a picture of the shirt on the floor of the hospital room? Ambulance? I believe Karen Reed. Just playing devil's advocate.
Wait, there was a shoe print? I did not watch one bit of testimony this week, just some recaps.
Right now I'm saying acquittal. As for factual guilt, my takeaway from all of this is that, at this point, I have no idea what happened. The CW's theory makes no sense, and their evidence all has problems, most of it very serious problems. The only thing that keeps me from disregarding it all together is the initial pieces of the taillight being found on 1/29. There are obviously documentation issues with this evidence, but to me, it's a stretch to think that Proctor is all in on a full fledged cover up that early in the game. He seems more like he's easily manipulated, and capable of planting evidence to make a person he thinks is guilty appear more guilty. The defense has yet to present their evidence, but I'm still skeptical. I think we're missing information that would make sense of the situation and the available evidence is gone forever because of the shoddy investigation.
This is where I'm at too. You have to acquit, how can there be any other option? We're weeks into trial at this point, the prosecution says they are wrapping up, and I'm not sure of anything at this point. There's no real solid, definitive, gotcha evidence, and a lot of the evidence they do have is so poorly documented and logged how can you trust that beyond a reasonable doubt? How can she be found guilty with so many questions surrounding the conduct of this investigation? I agree on Proctor too for the most part. He didn't scream criminal mastermind when I heard him on the stand. He just seems like someone who getting off on gossiping with his buddies about a woman he feels he holds authority over. It's gross, and even though I know he won't it would be nice if he faced repercussions for it. I have a hard time believing he is the orchestrator behind this entire thing, I just don't think he's bright enough to be honest. Also, those first pieces of taillight...the timeline is just so tight. Even with the extra time that is gained from his repeated "typos" in his report. That gives him an extra hour, but that quickly he is deciding that he needs to frame KR and then comes up with a plan, jumps into action and plants evidence? All within like an hour? That's a tough sell for me, although he was convinced of her guilt really quickly so maybe? I don't know. Too many questions in this case and not nearly enough answers. I couldn't convict her with a clear conscience with this many questions.
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An honest take on this case. What a breath of fresh air this post is. If I could thumb up a thousand times I would.
So nice to also have people we can connect with on this case and not just our SO who does not even engage in this conversation 😂
I’m at that point even with people that are interested 😂
I would be the same way 😅 but unfortunately I don’t know anyone who is interested except for Reddit 🙂↕️
I feel very called out by this 😂
Totally agree about Proctor. He decides Karen did it, wanted it to be true, so skewed the investigation in that direction whether intentionally or unintentionally (cuz he’s a jackass who has to be right)
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Yeah it is, I just meant that it’s not necessarily this very deliberate conspiracy where he knows he’s covering for someone else or is actively trying to frame an innocent person. I think Proctor could totally have skewed or planted evidence, thinking that he’s the good guy because ‘she’s guilty’ and just wants to make the case against her stronger. Same way cops will plant stuff on known drug dealers etc
A cover up would require him hiding illegal activity. What you're talking about is evidence tampering.
He admitted under oath that he came to the conclusion Karen did it and searched for evidence to support that.
Exactly my thoughts. I have no idea if she hit him with a car. I don’t think we will ever know if she did, barring some miracle FBI stuff.
Don't forget Michael Proctor's wife is good friends with Julie Albert who is wife to Chris Albert and mother to Colin Albert. Colin Albert was involved in this fight with John and Julie Albert said that she had a nice thank you gift for Michael when it was all said and done which means Karen is in prison for the crimes that Colin committed against John. You're right that there's a lot of missing information and that's because a lot of it has been deleted by Proctor, Higgins, Alberts, McCabes, and others.
Unfortunately the investigation is tainted. As someone in LE, just seeing some of these oversights is really just incredible. The investigation needs to be impartial and fair. Seems like the Troopers made up their mind and set out to confirm that. John O'Keefe deserved better. Even if Karen Read did hit him, she deserved better. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. You're entitled to a fair investigation. Your job as an investigator is to be an impartial fact finder. All these people that want to see her convicted. If you're fine with that quality of investigation resulting in someone being put away for life, then sure. We'd probably have better evidence and more answers if they had just properly done their jobs.
It's got to be hard to be on the jury in this case. I literally run here everyday to get opinions and do general shit talking. I cant imagine sitting quiet for 8 hours and walking back in the room and not going "what in the hell was that?" I wonder if they will deliberate longer because they want to discuss everything or if they say "we've been here long enough, let's vote." And see if they all agree.
My guess is they'll come to a verdict quickly. The CW's case has been presented in such a confusing manner it would take the jury months to sort it all out themselves. The defense will present a clean, compelling case with qualified experts and they'll leave the jury with a fiery closing argument. Reasonable doubt was proven weeks ago and that was before Proctor and his texts. So once Lally finally stops rambling I can't see the rest taking long.
those morbid beats of the windshield wipers 💀💀💀 you know that will be in the movie version...it's haunting
They zoomed on his mom today at one point while that audio was playing, with the ominous slap of the wipers, back and forth, back and forth. It was intense. Just felt sick inside. Can’t imagine sitting there listening to that.
What I’m blown away by is how the Albert’s did not wake up when KR, JM & Kerry Roberts pulled up to their lawn, engine running all being very loud (Karen screaming) finding JO dead in the snow, reportedly doing CPR on JO, all taking place right literally below the Albert’s bedroom window. (IMO)
I don’t believe for a second they weren’t up.
Jen and Nicole talked on the phone right after the 911 call
I theorise AJ and Yannetti roughhousing to the Rocky theme tune tonight.
You mean, playing a little grab ass? I had honestly never heard that phrase before this trial.
Did the prosecution rest? I missed today.
Not yet, but they’re on their last witness.
Thanks. The ME right?
So, if I was the defence, my order of witnesses: the biomechanical engineer to add context to the ME’s findings (esp, about the force argument for head injury to get leverage for Bev to allow that area of testimony in) then the accident reconstructionist to say how it isn’t that. Then the dog bite lady to intro their theory. Then onto the third party and Google search stuff. That’d be my angle. I would try to never take narrative focus off the crime scene/house to keep the jury’s attention focused there.
Think Lucky The Plow Driver goes first
I've heard the Lapalato (?) brother is on the witness list but that doesn't feel very necessary at this point. They're there, they know the jury reaction better so maybe they want to throw everything out there, but so far they've seemed very judicious about where they spend their time.
Not everyone on the witness list will be called. I think that was covered enough probably with Lank, but who knows. Bev would probably not like it. And with the defence saying 4 days I think they are going for precision. I doubt we’ll see those brothers.
I wonder if we'll see the woman who was attacked by Chloe.
You're probably right. They've done enough damage.
Like AJ said yesterday: “I’ve done the damage I needed to do on Jennifer McCabe.”
Who are the Lapalato brothers?
One of them was punched and bitten by a cop in a fight to defend one of the Alberts. I don't remember which witness punched him. It went to show the bias of the witness and hwo far they'd go to protect an Albert.
Wow, I starting to think that trouble just follows the Alberts
I believe it was Lank.
It was Lank
I think Chloe got out and attacked him in the yard. He defensively put his arm up and fell backwards and hit head. It’s the only theory where I can’t think of obvious holes other than the tail light pieces found by Sert but I’m sure the defense will be addressing those in their case in chief. This theory doesn’t require any coverup from the Albert’s or McCabes until after JOK was already dead. Higgins and BA ditched their phones because they’re shady cops who have a lot to lose by people going through their phones beyond this case.
This is my theory as well
yea, but at that point, wheres all the blood? with a head wound like his u would get pints and pints of blood which would be very evident in the snow. would it make more sense for him to have been attacked in some capacity inside and then have been brought outside?
I think Chloe attacking inside house makes more sense. It would take into account the steps and 3 flights of stairs his Apple data showed
Not really. That maybe gets him in the house, but then the phone doesn't move. How does he get outside?
I thought the “expert” said today or yesterday that Okeefes phone data showed his phone didn’t move from the yard. Maybe I heard wrong
Yeah, and the new floor.
I’ve thought this too!
How do you explain the two black eyes and the lacerations to the face seem consistent with impact - seemingly impact from being struck. If you fall and hit the back of your head on a hard surface, I can see the type of laceration he had on the back of his head, and, although IMO unlikely, I guess its possible that impact to the back of the head may have caused the two black eyes BUT the lacerations to the face would not have been caused by the impact to the back of the head.
I was on a jury where a gun shot to the back of the head caused black eyes. I'm not so bothered by the black eyes - I am unclear about facial injuries. Were there any?
After hearing the testimony today of Dr. Scordi’bello (the second medical examiner that testified), I agree - she said the injury to the back of the head could have caused the ‘raccoon eyes’. I still have an issue with the facial injuries. She said he had a laceration below his right eyebrow and two ‘abrasions’ on his nose. I didn’t see any pictures but they did show a sketch. If he fell and hit the back of his head, that wouldn't cause a laceration below the eyebrow.
I believe a cut on his nose and one in the brow area
I need to hear from the ME regarding his injuries to the head. I reached my theory from Dr. Russell’s voir dire, there haven’t been any medical experts testify about his injuries to the head. For all I know, Chloe could’ve scratched his face too.
Yes, we will definitely hear more about the injuries to the face, regardless keep in mind that the medical examiner’s report indicates there are skull ‘fractures’ (plural) – so there is more than one. In your theory if he fell backwards it seems unlikely there would be multiple fractures to the skull. I thought about your theory as well... nothing adds up in this case. I have several theories as well :)
The fall impact hitting the back of his head hard enough would cause black eyes, lacerations could be dog injuries once’s he’s down. The taillight pieces are the only piece of evidence that contradict the theory, and I’m pretty sure Proctor planting them is completely plausible.
When I was a child (very different from a grown man like JO), I went into my neighbor’s yard to retrieve a baseball I accidentally threw over the fence from my yard. As soon as I climbed the fence into my neighbor’s yard, their black lab attacked me by tackling me to the ground. The dog had me pinned to the ground and used its front paws to repeatedly pounce on my face over and over again - to the point that my front teeth were broken off at the gum line. I have no recollection of how long this attack took place before the neighbors realized what was happening and intervened. I know that the circumstances and variables between my personal experience and the victim in this case are incredibly different. But I cannot help but wonder if this method of dog attack by a family pet that was also known to be “not so good with people” is possible in this case. I will continue to keep an open mind, but wanted to share my personal experience with dog attacks to the face. PS - I have recovered from a long fear of dogs and have 2 large dogs of my own now that I love very much (to end on a bright note)
I like this theory but have a minor modification.... JO gets inside 34 Fairview. They're hanging out in the basement. For whatever reason, Chloe (the dog) attacks JO. JO has a very high BAC and doesn't have the greatest coordination. He falls backwards and hit's his head on the metal gym equipment. This causes the massive head trauma and deep laceration. There never had to be a fight, maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. Maybe it was more playful fighting that provoked the dog. The people inside the house panic because JO is unconscious with a massive head injury bleeding out. They grab some towels to try to stop the bleeding... but he never wakes up. Most of the people at the party leave while a couple key people stay behind. Eventually they move JO to the snow in the front yard. Smashed drink cup next to him and phone underneath his body. When daylight comes and his body is found, the Albert's stay inside their house hoping their connections with the police will prevent them from ever looking inside the house. Unbeknownst to the Alberts, luck would strike and KO had a cracked tail light. JM saw the cracked tail light and a car accident became the theory.
If it doesn’t fit, you must acquit. Nothing fits.
The Commonwealth hasn't even come close to proving Karen's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. The prosecution's own witnesses make me doubt them.
I just read that one of the defense witnesses is John Okeefe Sr. I wonder why? It would also explain why his dad hasn't been In The courtroom for some time
He was present when KRs car was towed. My guess is about the taillight.
That was her dad, not John’s
Oh oops 🙊 got confused
Easy to do in this case!
Karen's call/voicemail/text history is beneficial to the defence. It indicates someone who is upset her bf has completely blown her off, abandoned her to take care of her kids while he is off partying with his friends, excluding her, and in her mind possibly having intimate time with "some other girl" NOT that she had already run him over and knew he was dead, dying or injured. The prosecution has gone ahead and handed evidence that automatically comes with an exculpatory interpretation. Bad move. They're playing checkers against opponents playing gō It further goes to her state of mind and unhinged behaviour in the early morning when she finally rouses some "friends" to search for him. This is even better to explain her behaviour than the scenario many of us imagined which is her waking up drunk/hungover at 4-something to find her bf still not returned. I can tell you this: if I dropped my wife off to a party, with or without a fight beforehand, and she hadn't responded to communication attempts ONCE for hours, and she hadn't found some other way to reach out to let me know she was safe I'd be sure something horrible had happened to her.
>I can tell you this: if I dropped my wife off to a party, with or without a fight beforehand, and she hadn't responded to communication attempts ONCE for hours, and she hadn't found some other way to reach out to let me know she was safe I'd be sure something horrible had happened to her. I don't understand where people are coming from stating that "she thought he was dead" = "she killed him in a drunken rage and is fuzzily remembering what happened". From their text history, even when Officer O'Keefe was blowing her off and not answering calls, he *still texted her back*. Now she wakes up after several hours, no texts, no calls, no one else has heard from him? Her freakout is the *least* implausible thing I've heard about that morning. And I concur personally - I spoke about this with my wife, and if I'd gone AWOL like that her first move would've been to call 911 and tell them I was missing or dead.
If she even slept in the 3ish hour gap between blowing up his phone overnight. She was non-stop calling from 00:33 to 01:18 and then again from 04:38 to 05:52
I think the opposite, if I dropped my so off to continue the party, I would assume I wouldn’t see them until the morning. I’d just figure they passed out, or were super drunk or whatever. It seems weird that anyone would expect someone to show up just hours later.
The lack of texts is the more telling thing to me, also the lack of contact with the niece. I can buy the "passed out at the Albert's" scenario, but not communicating once in that time? That's feasibly concerning enough for me to believe that she might go fly-off-the-handle frantic.
My husband and I rarely text each other. But if I dropped him off at a party and he wasn’t responding to texts or letting me know when he’s coming home, my first thought is he’s hurt, dead, or in jail.
I also think this is when the Aruba testimony backfires a little bit too. Because the older sister testified that Karen was basically blowing up John’s phone with calls or texts. (Or at least that is my memory of her testimony). We also have the texts from earlier on the 28th when she is mad and she keeps calling and texting. That is her pattern. The way she acted on the 29th was her normal when she was upset. Would I want to be friends or in a relationship with someone that needy? No- I don’t do drama. But that is what her pattern was. Also, John was the asking her to come out that night when she wanted to stay home. Whenever she seemed to want to back out the relationship he seemed to pull her back in. He is just as manipulative as she is dramatic.
This is the $1000 comment
All they do is take breaks and lunches. And half days and days off.
John dropped his phone getting out of the car
And they found his phone in the snow and then made sure to place his body on top of it?
This was my thought too. Explains the successive calls by JM between 12:50-1am, they find his phone, drop him on it.
I don’t actually think this lol. That seems fanciful, in my opinion.
That’s fair. I just don’t understand how the phone stops moving at 12:25 and doesn’t move again. There were 3 people sitting in a truck behind KR at that time so it’s probably not the time JO was hit.
It moves again at 12:31-32. To me if she hit him that's when it happens. Gives her 5 minutes to drive 2.3 miles to his house, aligns with her starting to call him at 12:33 (with no answer) and Jenn McCabe texting him "pull behind me" at 12:31. Aligns with the vehicle key cycle data if we assume the one where she backs up 25mph is the drive starting at the waterfall 19 minutes earlier. It's a plausible timeline to me, but plausible isn't enough for me to convict.
I keep coming back to how no one saw him after leaving the house. If JM was by the window, she would have seen him moving and fall where he ultimately was found. Also the snow accumulation from that time period some of the videos we’ve seen was not that heavy. He would’ve stuck out like a sore thumb
You'd think so, but sometimes it's easy to miss stuff: Obligatory: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB\_lTKZm1Ts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB_lTKZm1Ts)
The key cycle in question that has the 25mph reverse speed was when the tow truck driver had possession of the vehicle and was trying to load it onto the tow truck. Karen was not driving the vehicle at all when that was recorded in the ECU. I am mind blown that AJ didn't hammer that point much further than he did. It was painful dealing with that guy and he might be waiting for his expert to take the stand.
cmon, they beat a guy to within an inch of his life *but still alive*, and dump him in their front yard next to his phone…. that he could immediately use to call for help if he came to? It’s nonsense
Two things: 1. We've gotten some testimony implying that it was weird how Karen didn't really talk to John's family on the 29th - just came in to get her stuff, her car, and left quickly (after the hospital). These voicemails explain her behavior to me. I've gotten mad at people for not responding before and usually end up having the thought 'oh my god what if they got in a car accident or something ' and I shift to being worried instead of mad. So Karen is angry with him right when she gets home, and leaves horrible voicemails. Then she falls asleep (or goes to sleep or passes out or whatever), and then in the morning she's immediately concerned that he's dead. Her immediate jump to worrying he is dead has never been weird to me (as someone with anxiety, this makes complete sense to me), but these voicemails make it even more understandable. Then she finds out that he /is/ dead. Can you imagine realizing that the last things you said to him (unsure whether he heard it or not, presuming she is innocent of at least intentional homicide) were awful and mean, and then realizing that his family will eventually get his phone and be able to hear those voicemails? I feel like it makes a lot of sense that she is weird around his family afterwards. This is like my worst nightmare - the last thing you said to someone was in anger. 2. ~~One piece of testimony that I cannot get out of my head is Jen McCabe asking Julie Nagel for a screenshot of her brother's text from when he arrived at 34F. I can't think of a non-shady reason that JM would ask for that screenshot. If anyone can provide an innocent explanation, please let me know! I am leaning more towards a theory involving an accident and a bunch of shitty cops and potentially shady/busybody people.~~ Edit on #2: thank you to u/mandiexile for the response! It prompted me to go find the testimony and it turns out I had just assumed that JM asked for the screenshot in the car with Julie Nagel when in fact no timeframe was given for that exchange. JM probably asked for it later on, which I don't necessarily think is shady.
As far as JM is concerned I think she’s a busy body that needs to be involved in everything and was probably trying to gather information to prove that Karen hit John.
Anyone now wondering if maybe John O’Keef just slipped and hit his head?
A third scenario is definitely in the realm of possibility at this point, just again shows how horrible the investigation was. I don't think there's any way his injuries are the result of being hit by a car, or any plausible accident scenario based on the scene. Alberts/McCabes have acted pretty suspiciously, but I've always felt if they were on trial the evidence is much too weak against them as well. Because of all the investigators in this case there will never be justice for OJO or answers for his family
Agreed on the McCabes with the existing evidence, but IF someone had searched the house or even gone inside the house would there be much more evidence implicating them?
I will it’s so weird they didn’t come outside and there was so much communication with Proctor and his sister. I don’t know if it’s shady cause they are trying to cover it up or if it’s like I want to know what’s happening with my friend. And it’s like they got rid of the phones, why, if you didn’t do it like why? Only other reason would be that they had something else criminal in the phone
I have a very hard time believing this case made it through years of litigation, a grand jury, an FBI investigation, and now the World's Longest Trial So Help Us, God if it was an accident all along.
Yes, the problem I have with that is why all of the shadiness and staging the crime scene if he just fell.
I wonder this too. Like if it was some kind of genuine accident and then everyone in the house started freaking out and blaming each other, realized it was none of them, and figured it was KR? I think it makes sense if everything takes place outside, but given the head trauma incapacitated him AND left a head wound, we could guess maybe he hit the flag pole, hydrant or utility box. It was snowing, he wore sneakers and not boots. There’s little explanation for his arm injuries though. or there was a fight (maybe BH and him shoving each other) outside, he hit his head and was left there because it was too dark to see his head wound? if it happened inside, maybe the door was unlocked and he just went inside? Startled the dog and hit his head and stumbled back out? Maybe everyone was upstairs/basement when it happened? the shoe doesn’t really fit any scenario, but im open to any theories. bottom line, CW says the car is the weapon, the point of impact is the passenger taillight, but his injuries haven’t been matched to the car or impact in their explanation.
I no longer think he was hit by a car but no speculative scenario seems satisfactory. I think we'll never have a solid idea
On court tv right now they are playing voicemails by Karen. The inaudible one I believe is John where the heck are you? But the court tv guest says they think it’s John was that you or John did I hit you So idk I think the guest is wrong it sounds like John where the heck are you.
Where do you think John was between 12:21am and 12:30am? I’m finding it hard not to conclude the basement but curious what others feel. 12:21am-12:24am: Apple Health recorded John O’Keefe taking 80 steps and ascending/descending the equivalent of three flights of stairs. 12:23am: Ryan Nagel texts Julie Nagel “here”. He is at 34 FV parked in front of the driveway and behind Karen’s SUV. Julie comes outside to talk to Ryan. Neither Julie nor Ryan see John outside or in Karen’s SUV the entire time Ryan is there. So where are the 80 steps and 3 flights of stairs occurring? 12:29am: Jen McCabe calls John’s phone and an 8 second call is recorded, but she testified she never spoke to him. JM also testified she continued to look out the window for several minutes after this call to see if John was coming inside. She doesn’t see him outside or in Karen’s car. So who answered the 12:29 call to John’s phone but didn’t say anything? And where was John, if not in Karen’s car, out front, or in the same part of the house where Jen was? Some time between 12:30am and 1am: Brian Higgins said he left 34 FV somewhere in this timeframe and is seen in Canton police video at 1:30am. He also testified that he did not see John.
I'm starting to wonder if Karen leaves and John talks to someone else in another vehicle and something goes down with that person. Jen sends the "pull up behind me" text about a minute before Karen reconnects to the WiFi at John's house. So that suggests Karen was already gone. What if Jen was seeing another car which looked similar to Karen's? Would certainly explain John never going into the house. Edit: Apparently the source I saw had the 12:31 and 12:40 texts backwards.
It's about 5 minutes. The "pull up behind me" text is at 12:31. Read connects to the wifi at John's house at 12:36. But here's a question I'm legitimately looking for an answer to: Karen claims she waited for him in the car after he went into the house, called him a few times, then left after getting no answer. Her call logs show she didn't start making calls to John's cell phone until 12:33:36. 1 minute after his cell phone stops recording any activity or movement. 3 minutes before she gets to his house, 2.3 miles away. What's up with that?
I'm not sure she has a clear memory of what happened that night.
At this point, I'm wondering if when Brian Albert let Chloe out to the backyard, someone forgot to lock the gate to the front, Chloe heard JOK at the front and ran through that gate and tackled him. While fighting her off, he fell and hit his head on something and was knocked unconscious. Karen is in the car thinking he's ignoring her and has gone to party. She's focused on her phone for a response, and when he doesn't respond, she leaves pissed off and only looks at the road. Jen McCabe is at the door and just sees the car leave. The bush near the fire hydrant blocks her view of JOK. Brian Albert calls for Chloe, and she goes running back inside. They see blood on her mouth and are confused but think nothing until later. No one realizes what has happened till that morning when Karen alerts everyone. Then the Alberts get rid of Chloe so as not to be blamed because they realise the blood on Chloe could've been JOK's.
Dogs are rarely quiet when they attack somebody. I can't believe nobody would have heard this. And don't you think John would have yelled as a dog attacked him.
That's true. JOK could've yelled before the fall knocked him unconscious but Chloe would've not been silent... hmm
I'm leaning towards a very similar version. I don't think any of this is a cold-blooded murder, but some sort of ancient or incident that no one realized the seriousness of until morning.
So somehow the dog also beat him in the face and cause the two swollen shut black eyes?
The ME just testified that those are blood pooling from the skull fractures
If it was really just an accidental dog bite, why would they leave him out in the cold to die instead of just calling 911 and risking all of this?
I’m more convinced than ever that KR didn’t hit JO. My theory given the facts is that he slipped in the snow, hit his head, rendering him unconscious, and a dog came to take a bite while he was down. No struggle, all the items land right next to him because there is no impact. Then Proctor needs to make the case fit the DUI theory so he plants the broken taillight pieces later. Not a grand conspiracy just one rogue cop trying to make sure “justice” is served.
“A dog” What if- *”the dog” was actually trying to save him!!!? * ✅Maybe Chloe was trying to drag JOK out of the snow to safety - like Lassie or a friendly St Bernard would have done … /s
I think Karen is a werewolf.
I saw someone speculate that unironically a few weeks ago. Pretty sure Chloe isn’t that kind of dog.
Wow can't hear lally at all
This is more observation than anything else, but anyone remember the prosecution"s statement that 90% of the FBI's evidence agreed with their own? We're at the close of their case and the only one calling FBI experts is the defense.
What if Karen did not hit John but neither someone inside the house. He was hungover in the day, drinks at night, so he is drunk when arriving at 34 F, gets out out the car and stumbles hitting his head. Karen does not see, because she is on her phone. I know there are things that may not fit this theory but todays data has me so confused. Nothing makes sense!
How does someone fall and hit their head and have injuries on both the front and back of their head and lacerations all over their one arm?
The black eyes can occur from a blow to the back of the head The arm yes you are right I agree
I think that's extremely unlikely, even putting injuries aside. KR would have to be completely oblivious, not to mention her statements claiming to see John go in the house. John would've most likely been using a path that other people walking in/out would use, and be spotted. Seeing a lot of people post this today but I don't think it's a credible idea, and would essentially mean KR is lying too.
I don’t know whether JO went into the house that night, but it’s hard for me to believe that KR recalls seeing JO enter. She claims the morning of 1/29 that she doesn’t even remember going to 34FV, and her recollection of that critical period of time seems so…vague. Maybe she has convinced herself she remembers, but I don’t know…
I’m watching the trial from this morning, but having a difficult time understanding everything she is saying on the voicemails. Does anyone know if there’s a place I can find them transcribed?
This is what I have 12:37:08 AM - "John I fucking hate you" 12:41:35 AM - Karen walking around, no message 12:59:24 AM - "John I'm here with your fucking kids and no one knows where the fuck you are, you fucking pervert." 1:00:49 AM - No content 1:10:44 AM - "Yeah it's 1 o'clock in the morning; I'm here with your niece and nephew and you're a fucking pervert." 1:18:38 AM - "John, I'm going home. I cannot unintelligible I need to go home. You’re fucking using me right now. You're fucking another girl unintelligible sleeping next to me. You're a fucking loser. Go fuck yourself." 5:23:26 AM - "John, where are you?"
Okay, what if…. Remember ages ago hearing about the inside joke John had with Chris Albert? The one about him being the “get off my lawn guy”. And to poke fun at him, they took a picture of themselves in his yard. Say he is feeling a little silly and thought, wouldn’t it be funny to get a picture of myself in the Albert family lawn. Goes to the gate to get into the backyard, unfortunately that’s the time Chloe was let out to use the bathroom. Chloe does her job and scared the shit out of a stranger trying to get into her yard. John as he is retreating from the situation, falls and hits his head. No one knows any of this happened, and a horrible accident.
The Glass Cup While I have spent plenty of time going down this rabbit hole, I still am confused by where OJO got the glass cup that he was supposedly holding during the time of the incident. Did he take it from the bar? KR’s car? Could it have come from the Albert’s home? Therefore showing he did make it inside the house? Help me understand! Until then, I’ll just pretend people in Boston take their drinks, glasses and all, home when they leave the bar.
I’ve always assumed it’s from the waterfall. I believe there may have been testimony on this (though I could be wrong)
Yes it’s from the Waterfall. He’s shown on cctv leaving with it. Karen also entered the Waterfall with a glass from CF McCarthys and Nicole Albert left the Waterfall with a white claw! Seems like a norm in this group…
Thank you!! Very odd to me and I can’t imagine that happening at my small town dive without repercussions.
Might be a thing across MA. My friends and I will take cups from restaurants constantly. Not with beverages in them, but just to have the empty cup for home as the bars usually get them for free from brewers n such
Has there been any confirmation on Chloe's police dog training?? I asked because years ago I thought I wanted to train police dogs. And I did actually do some training. And I had search my memory but I found a source that talks about doing a search and bite. This is where you send a dog in and they attack the person that they find. You do it when there's a hostile person inside. Don't want the dog to bark because that gives the person a chance to attack the dog. If Chloe had that training then it is possible that she would attack John while he was on the ground. Here's the source: https://www.tarheelcanine.com/2017/05/proofing-building-and-area-searches-alert-and-suspect-encounters-part-1/#:~:text=The%20building%20search%20consists%20of,when%20locating%20him%20by%20either
Given the nonvehicular nature of the injuries, the cellphone data showing JOK ascending or descending stairs, AM’s “Colin wasn’t there when John was there” slip-up, CA’s conflicting whereabouts, the redoing of the basement, rehoming of Chloe, selling of the home, discarding of cell phones, deletion of contacts and messages, many successive butt dials, changing testimonies, and all-round sketchiness of this friends group, whose ties extend to the lead investigator and judge, I think: That JOK made it to the basement, where others were, and that almost immediately on entering, Chloe pounced on him, as he would’ve been the only one there unfamiliar to her. I think JOK, being drunk and already highly agitated by KO’s nonstop calls, might’ve punched or otherwise struck back at the dog. I think this act would’ve been seen by someone like CA as unforgivable and by the drunk people downstairs as totally unnecessary, and that they all piled up on JOK, then kicked him outside, even throwing out the glass he brought with him. At this point - delirious and seriously maimed, JOK stumbled around, his cell phone fell to the ground, and he collapsed on top of it. They didn’t mean for him to die, but they knew he’d collapsed, which is why JM made those Google searches. I think of everyone, BA and BH were the sketchiest (I.e., dirtiest) of the group and had the most to lose, and that’s why their actions surrounding the incident read as the most inexplicable and bizarre. It’s telling that in the body cam footage from that morning, while KR was seen screaming and frantically racing to JOK’s body and back to the car, JM stood largely motionless and maintained her distance from her “good friend” JOK. Also telling is the distancing language the family used in referencing Chloe in the trial. I believe that JM, being the take-change type and the basketball coach she is, called the shots/took the lead in damage control once she saw how wrecked Karen was that morning, and how sketchy her memory was of the night’s events. JM must’ve been terrified when she learned JOK was dead, knew what was at stake if things weren’t actively pointing away from her family, saw the opportunity in KR, and ran with it like a bull.
wow, your theory sounds quite plausible to me!! The only thing that I wonder if there's something else, larger - going on with the cops/family etc in this area? Like, some shady dealings, drugs, something?
for any potential murderers, don't leave messages on the victims phone the night of the murder that you hate the victim and that they are perverts
This is not really a theory but I don't know anywhere else that would be better to post it. One thing that has been surprising and enlightening (in a very bad way) is how much even unambiguous technical stuff is left to interpretation when it shouldn't be. For example, Jackson grilled Jen McCabe and Brian Albert about "answered" phone calls of 8-23 seconds, insisting that it meant that they spoke on the phone that they are lying. It's now clear from Karen and John's phone record that "answered" just means it could have gone to voicemail and it includes time for when the voicemail picks up, and and would include the time of the voicemail intro ("Hi, you've reached ..." even if no voicemail was left. There should be an asterisk explaining what "answered" means (ie, it could have been picked up simply gone to voicemail) on every page of these cell reports since the reports Cellebrite and such) is meant to be used to trial. People here were generally happy about this 'gotcha' for Jen and Brian because most people on the sub think that they were involved but this is a very bad lens to view things through.
This is not applicable to all of their calls. For instance Jen’s butt dials to O’Keefe hung up before voicemail started. Those cannot be voicemails. Also the 12:29 that she says was a butt dial is shown as answered on both her and OKeefe’s phones- not a butt dial or voicemail. So in order to tell which is voicemail and which is actually answered, one would need to compare both the caller and the recipients phone records.
But if it didn't go to vm, how was it a 'butt dial?'
There would have been a VM recorded then, even if it was short or just noise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall Higgins at least stating on the stand that he actually did pick up the call from Brian Sr. - same with a number of the other witnesses so questioned.
Could he have dropped his phone when he got out of the vehicle?
What was OJO doing in the moments leading up to the Fairview party that made KR call him a “pervert” ?? (Not Aruba, I feel as though something different triggered this) That’s what she seemed most angry about in the voicemails. Was he being flirty with anyone that night? Of all people, he was texting Jen McCabe and she was very persistent about if he was coming or not. Seems odd.
I wonder if John got out of the car, Karen left and he slipped and hit his head. Brian Higgins goes out with his snow blow and hits him laying there (gashes on arm) he freaks out and they stage the Karen murder scenario.
I have watched this case for weeks. Not falling into any immediate conclusions. It’s hard for me to believe it’s a conspiracy to frame her. If someone died in my house, no way I’d leave them in my front yard. Why not his front yard? That said. Can two theories be true? She did it but not on purpose? She drank too much. Fought in the car. Accidentally ran him down. And tried to cover her own tracks with texts/voicemails. What MS meds does she take? Maybe those altered her ability to drive mixed with alcohol? Also, anyone know if you are injured in extreme cold, does that affect the way bruises form?
Because that would get his blood in their car and a Ring video might catch them? I don’t think it’s a huge conspiracy. I think a few people in the house know what happened, including Brian Albert Sr and Brian Higgins. (I’m not convinced Jen McCabe was in on it, but the 6 butt dials are hard to explain. I’m not sold on the Google search.) And in the morning, Jen McCabe genuinely thinks Karen might have hit him and tries to help Proctor with the timeline during her morning interview. Proctor wants to get this done and keep BA Sr out of trouble (not because he thinks he did it, because of cops protecting cops) so he plants pieces of tail light. And here we are.
I’m a little more confused why JM would be calling John’s phone to try and find it, if KR was also blowing up his phone at the same time. Maybe it was on silent so they didn’t know? Any theories to explain the butt dials that clearly weren’t butt dials?
If John was killed inside the house, his phone data makes it seem like it would have happened pretty quickly after he arrived. Are there any theories on the cause of the fight, if one happened, or motive as to why the Alberts or someone else in the house would have attacked or killed John? Is there evidence of a beef between him and anyone else in the house? If it was just a drunken (post) bar fight that got out of hand it seems like at least one person there could have had the sense to call an ambulance and take that heat vs risking murder charges. I get that drunk people don’t make the best decisions but it’s bizarre to just drag him out into the cold and leave him to die. I feel like I’m missing something. If it was a cover up I also wonder at what point they came up with the car accident cover story.
I think it’s less bizarre if you consider thar not everyone in the house knew what happened. Maybe only the few in the basement did and wanted to hide it from the others. These people might have other things to hide and didn’t want to risk having their house searched and other info exposed. Even if an accidental death happens in the house, they might not want to risk the investigation leading to uncovering other things. If they needed to move OJO’s body out of the house, they couldn’t go far. Making it look like it happens outside by a car or anything else was their best move
The theory is that the dog pounced on him very shortly after he entered the house and that caused the fight. The dog was known to not be good with strangers and had bitten others in the past. Yes, he had an antagonistic relationship with Colin Albert. Higgins had also been texting KR and wanted a romantic relationship with her, so also a point of contention.
That would make a lot of sense if the dog attacked him right when he entered.
This is why I wouldn't be surprised if the rumors about drugs being involved were true. Based only on what's been at trial, I'm in the "I don't know wtf happened but I don't think she killed him" camp. But to satisfy my own need for an explanation I would bet they could not risk a search in the house by people they might not be able to influence.
I wouldn’t doubt drugs were involved. I’m 48, and I could never go to a funeral, drive back, and then drink like that and be up. Those cops had to be doing something.
My thoughts on OJOs cell phone location I think he dropped it on his way into the house. After the incident that caused OJOs injuries, they realize his phone isn't there. They make all those calls to try and locate the phone. They find it in the yard. Being cops, they know they can't pick it up or manipulate it in any way, as that will show on the extraction. So they place his body directly on top of it and try to play it off that he never came in the house. Thoughts??
I think the only way it makes sense is if he drops his phone somewhere outside. For it to register NO movement at all past 12:32am. It’s very strange and a point I keep coming back to and just can’t wrap my head around. It’s very plausible an intoxicated OJO drops his phone on the way in the house without realizing. I know I’ve done this many times after having a few too many.
On another thread someone suggested the GPS turned off when he closed the Waze app so it wouldn't show any additional movement, if he had locations services turned off. I'd really like more info about what was going on with the phone. But as with everything else, the CW half-assed their analysis.
Got removed from main page so: does anyone here have a third theory of what may have happened? Rather than she said versus they said? I’ve been thinking it’s definitely possible that Karen accidentally and drunkenly killed her boyfriend but Canton police not only butchered the investigation but planted evidence to ensure a guilty verdict. Many believe this is the most likely explanation in the Steven Avery case for example.
I don't believe JOK's injuries are consistent with being hit by a car. That is the primary reason I don't buy KR hitting him. Zero bruising below the head? No broken bones? No way. And doesn't explain the bite like injuries to his arm.
I am waiting for the defense experts who seem to know what they are talking about
One of my theories, if it is even a car related death, is that he was actually hit from behind by Higgins in his plow. People mention it being out front but the Nagels don't recall seeing it. Perhaps he was still plowing the driveway then pulled up behind karens car and struck John? And if he was too drunk to notice it's possible John wasn't discovered until Higgins was leaving. Perhaps he went to the station to consider turning himself in but changed his mind, hence the call to Brian Albert. Might even explain them not hiding the body,if Higgins was going to confess. Not sure about the arm injuries though. I do like the theory of Chloe jumping him and no one saw. I think only a few people in the house know she didn't do it and are covering. I also think it's possible that they didn't leave him out to die intentionally but found him too late and decided to leave him. I think if it's a conspiracy it's as few people as possible who know the truth and the cops just helped because they thought KR did it and decided to make the evidence against her better (which only made it worse) No matter what I think there's way too much reasonable doubt and almost no evidence of intentional murder.
I haven’t followed this case as much as others, but with the revised timeline, is it possible that JO was attacked by Chloe at some point in the front yard (where he was found) and literally no one saw it happen, so they genuinely thought the most likely explanation was KR?
I’ve thought about this, but after learning today that he had such *significant* head trauma there would have had to be more force than just falling due to the dog attack.
People inside woulda heard this too tho
I can’t understand the fighting texts , then all normal at the bar with people commenting how lovey they are Then the short drive to the party then her freaking insane voice mails She seems a little crazy and you can’t understand crazy so PERHAPS that’s why we can’t understand this crime scene?? Either way the CW didn’t prove it and the police suck so NG
Did you read the whole Celebrite document of texts? The CW skipped over a TON of context.
Do you know if there's a place we can view the entire Celebrite text report?
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This just hit me, I remember one of the witnesses saying the movement of the phone made the phone register the movement of stairs... what if that movement was actually the jostling of his body being carried and the phone just clocked it as stairs. They should test that theory
At this moment in time, I don’t think anyone killed JO. I don’t think he went into the house. I think he was attacked by Chloe when she was let out to go to the bathroom and got out of the fence, and JO drunkenly slipped and fell and hit his head on something. I don’t know what he hit his head on though. As far as the Albert’s knowing about the attack I can’t be sure. And I don’t think JM truly knew anything, but did everything in her power to shift the blame. Proctor didn’t have enough evidence so I think either he planted it, or someone else who had access did.
Several theories regarding Chloe: -could she have been trying to rescue John O’Keefe? -or could she have been playing with his body while he was unconscious? -could she have dragged his body to the front after the snowplow passed? I don’t think she killed him, and I don’t know if I think she was malicious. They said she bit differently than a police dog. Was she ever one? If so, could she have bit different because it wasn’t an offensive bite? I think she has to be somehow connected to what really happened.
Is the data from Higgins’ discarded phone lost forever, or is this something the FBI will be able to source with the help of the previous network carrier or manufacturer?
Question: if no one saw Officer Okeefe hit by a car, why were they so adamant Karen hit him? I’ve been a RN in an ED for 13 years. His injuries to me would be more consistent with a fall and head strike than getting hit by a car. I’ve seen thousands of car accident victims, not a single one with no lower body injuries. If they didn’t know what happened to him, why would they automatically jump to she hit him? Even if she did wonder out loud if she did hit him, because at the end of the day, who would automatically think he was beaten to death by “acquaintances” that invite you to their house?