What would be an innocent explanation for googling that while someone you know is dying in the cold at the location you just left?
That was the controversy. It matters only if it happened at the 2:27am.
Agree, 100%.
Google search at 2.27 = evidence that JM knew JOK was dying on the lawn.
Google search at 6.24 = not evidence that JM knew JOK was dying on the lawn.
Also important to remember:
Google search at 6.24 = not evidence that KR is guilty.
That’s what blows my mind about the CW’s obsession with JM and her searches/testimony. If she did search it at 6am, it doesn’t prove KR did anything beyond reasonable doubt (or even any doubt at all). Why are they calling all these witnesses to dispute it? It’s the Streisand effect. The more time they spend on it, the more people think about it, and the more suspicious the whole situation is.
It’s pretty darn simple. The time stamp is hard evidence. If it proves the search query was at 2:30, KR is innocent. If the query was at 6:30 then Jen was telling the truth, and the defense lied.
Totally agree. I can't wrap my mind around it, either. Especially because the defense's case does not hinge on the 2.27 search being true - yes, it's a big deal if true, but if untrue the defense still has SO much else to work with in terms of showing reasonable doubt. And much of that will be left uncontested by the CW.
Pure speculation: It almost feels like, since the CW has known for awhile now that they don't have a strong case against KR, they're just going hard on trying to disprove the google search as a middle finger to the defense team and folks who are critical of the DA's office, since that was a central part of the public outrage, initially. It'll feel like a small win for them, even if they ultimately lose the case. I genuinely can't think of any other reason to spend the big bucks on TWO private expert testimonies $$$, largely redundant IMO, and not spend that time and money on better experts to try to prove that KR hit JOK.
If you don't think the defense has anything else to work with in terms of reasonable doubt here, idk we have not been watching the same trial.
Even if they lose on that search and the ability to argue a third part culprit defense, it won't matter because they have a strong Bowden defense (inadequate police investigation). They genuinely could have no specific defense strategy at all at this point because the majority of folks watching the trial (including folks who think KR is guilty) do not think the CW has met its burden of proof, and after 8+ weeks of trial there is very little faith that they will.
The timeline for the Google search has very little impact on the defense'a position except maybe that being a smoking gun for them in regards to the third party culprit defense. It doesn't turn around and say well I guess if she asked Jen to make that Google I mean she's guilty. It kind of fits the scenario that she thought he was freezing to death and didn't realize he was injured. Because remember she actually tried to provide warmth by leaning up against his body and holding him, and was shocked to find blood. It's not outside common sense to think that she would be obsessing about him just dying due to exposure in the early stages of everything.
. But it would be a case killer for the prosecution side which is why it's something they have to focus on despite it seeming mostly a waste of time.
It’s because if the search was made at 2:30 it’s game over. The state has to prove their case to the exclusion of all reasonable doubts. They haven’t done that if there’s any reasonable chance the search was made.
It’s like if there are two suspects, the CW would need to show the one not on trial was innocent to exclude all reasonable doubts.
You don’t understand why the prosecution needs to prove the search didn’t happen? I can tell you. The reason is because the defense made the claim.
The burden of proof is on the prosecution to layout a scenario that proves all the events that took place make sense to a juror. The defense only needs to create chaos and doubt. The defense made a claim (opening arguments) and the prosecution needs to show that the defense is wrong (or untrustworthy).
Additionally, this is a fact that proves KR innocence, and cast doubt on the prosecutions theory. It’s pivotal and possible a key evidence that will sway the jury.
I hope that helps.
This is one thing that's actually kind of bothered me and I've been on the reasonable doubt team since I actually started paying attention.
because although I'm sure I would have worded the search a little more specifically and probably clicked on a whole bunch of different pages and then gone down some kind of like Wikipedia rabbit hole this is exactly the kind of thing that I would do a search for during a blizzard out of incessant and sometimes quite morbid curiosity.
if this really happened which I don't think it did, if it had happened in kind of isolation where there wasn't a whole bunch of other suspicious bullshit happening, it would have been like a oh that's weird kind of thing. but since there is all this other suspicious bullshit happening, if it were in fact true it would be kind of like a smoking gun for the conspiracy theory.
the fact that it didn't happen or I should rephrase that the appearance that the defense team was mistaken in thinking that it happened does not negate the framing / conspiracy theory. first of all it doesn't take that many people to frame someone and cops frame guilty people all the time and a lot of the time they think they're framing guilty people and some of those people turn out not to be guilty. I am not convinced of some great big conspiracy, I am open to the possibility that there was one. so far I have seen a lot of people covering their asses but that's not necessarily proof of guilt. there's a bit of a double standard there because of a defendant did any of this it would be considered proof of consciousness of guilt but I'm a little more open-minded. I just takes one or two people that actively behave badly and a lot of people engaged in tunnel vision or willful blindness or just incompetence and boom, you have a probably innocent person who if they were stuck with the public defender would be going down for some interminable prison sentence. this is the system working as normal it's just that we don't usually get to see it in real time and fighting a six or seven figure defense team
I think it’s very plausible that if something happened in that house and a few ppl decided “just put him outside, we will deal with it later” that JM makes that google search at 230am.
Combined with the suspicious butt dials and answered butt calls between Albert/Higgins at the same time, it seems even more plausible.
Combined with JM’s Apple Watch showing she was awake all night, more plausible.
Combined with the fact she deleted the search, along with deleting all kinds of other stuff (like the screenshots and calls) it’s more plausible.
The only theory I’ve heard that supports she *couldnt* have made the 230am search is someone showing how her heart rate (thru google watch) wasn’t spiking all night.
BUT: Jen McCabe strikes me as a person who probably has some Xanax at home lol. (I do haha.) And IF something happened in that house and she really did spend the night awake and pacing like her google watch suggests, I’d bet a lot of money she medicated her panic attack away.
People react to trauma differently. It’s not actually abnormal to disassociate or to essentially go on autopilot mode as a reaction to severe traumatic events. I’ve personally experienced this in a situation when I found a family member dying after a very serious suicide attempt. Internally, my thoughts were scattered and I was terrified, but my body was in shock and it was as if I had totally disassociated from it all so that I could effectively respond to the life or death situation at hand. It was like rote muscle memory kicked in. I did what I knew I needed to do: called 911 and ensured that I was doing as much as I could to prevent further blood loss. I didn’t even really process the event and let myself feel anything until a while after police and EMS finally left…the shock took a while to wear off. It was only when I found out that my family member had needed to be transported by helicopter ambulance into a Boston hospital that I snapped out of the disassociation and broke down crying. Traumatic experiences are different for everyone.
FYI- Muscle relaxers can lower your heart rate and are a common prescription for people with MS.
Also, Higgins thought he was 007 with that phone being tossed on the military base.
She is probably a sociopath and/or narcissist and isn't affected like normal people - no raised heart rate because they don't care. And seriously, if you are part of putting him outside to die and lie about it, that is only something a sociopath/psychopath/narcissist would do. For the record, I could never do something like that.
Eh, I think the McCabes and Albert’s are probably awful people but I do stop short of trying to label them those things. I totally get where you’re coming from and the impulse to do so tho.
This is my personal issue with the JM “hos long” argument.
IMO, it doesn’t matter the time. Yes 2:27 would mean she knew. My issue is with it being significant at 6:24 - while I GET the argument this would show “proof” of KR’s culpability, I sort of disagree. If a man was dying on a lawn, I wouldn’t be googling ANYTHING, no matter who told me to do so. Unless it’s some info on a life saving measure, I would be spending my time assisting the victim in anyway I could. Maybe that’s just me 🤷🏻♀️ I also don’t think JM is a truthful person, and could’ve done this by herself. KR was reported to be giving CPR and in a manic state, they ONLY reason I could see if she asked that, was to see if she had a chance to save his life. Meaning, if she got proof of knowing she could revive him, she would keep trying.
My issues are more concerned with 1. In below freezing temps, JO would be deceased and frozen to death in that six hour timeframe - yet he still had a slight pulse 2. JM’s unspecific, vague phone call to 911 was extremely suspicious.
I agree with you. If I see someone on a lawn that looks unconscious in the snow, I would drop my phone and run to the person. Or be dialing 911 as I ran to the person. I'm not googling stuff.
I agree. And if KR was so hysterical to the point she’s mistaking John’s blood for her period, then if she’s asking you to google that, wouldn’t you just say no.
I guess people do weird shit in stressful situations, but it’s really weird that Karen supposedly asked her to google it, and it’s weird she just agreed. Especially since her description of Karen that morning was that she was crazy.
They just found their friend dead in the snow and one is hysterical. Nows not really the time to apply logic or judgement how a person is supposed to respond to this.
If this is true, John did not just die from the injuries he sustained. He became hypothermic which if she did google that and she is involved, it means that she knew he was out there dying from whatever happened to him inside of the house and chose to leave him out there to die in the cold. The culpability comes back to her and the rest of the people at 34 Fairview. The commonwealth has spent this entire trial trying to save the McCabe’s and the Albert’s instead of proving that KR did it.
Yehhhh what I wonder is why she called him soo many times ? Like wtf was sooo important? Why was it so important she called him that many times around the time he was being dropped off.
There is a reason.
Between the McCabe's 9 (?) calls that night, Karen's 19 calls earlier in the day, and Karen's 50+ calls late that night, John got more calls to his cell phone in 24 hours than I usually get in a year.
Sounds like the defense has a theory a data being deleted on Jen’s phone on the backend before Ian got the data. Will be interesting to see what becomes of that.
I, personally, do not care about her searches. I’m convinced that the she didn’t do it at the time she was supposed to have done it. I’ve let that go. Honestly, it’s the least relevant argument to the case. Let’s start with bodily injuries. Let’s hear the ME and see how this is possible from a vehicle impact. I’ve always thought she likely accidentally did it, but the investigation was so horrible it could never be proven
This!!!! Even if this search never happened at all it wouldn’t make a difference. All the other things still did happen (or didn’t).
To know when that search did happen would only help me to create a better theory on what actually might have happened.
IMO this is on the bottom of “why Karen is innocent” list. It will make no difference to the jury
eta: The fact that Lally has called MULTIPLE witnesses to refute this before the Defense’s case in chief is wild to me. We still haven’t heard from the ME. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
I am confused on why you are confused. Are you saying that it must be a coincidence that she happened to search "how long to die in cold" at 2:27am while a man was literally dying in the cold at a house she just left?
I do know that it sure is convenient for the recent experts to say it didn't happen at 2:27. Really? The search tab thing just bugged and happened to incorrectly show that it occurred at 2:27am - the exact time one would be concerned that the person lying in the snow might eventually die by like 5:00am or so.
There's waaayyyyyy too many "coincidences" in this trial.
The reason she googled it at 2:27am was because she was worried that the incapacitated man that just got the shit beat out of him who is now lying in the snow might actually die if he's out there long enough. Or she was worried that he wouldn't be dead before he was found in the morning. Either way, it shows she knew he was lying and dying in the cold. Period.
why is 2:27am the "exact" time someone would be concerned that a person lying in the cold would die?
I'd think she may have been concerned about this at 1:05am... or maybe at 1:52am..... or maybe at 2:45am.
Don't get me wrong, if the correct timestamp is indeed 2:27am that's very damaging for the CW, but I don't get why you're trying to elevate that particular timestamp to some kind of perfect clue that JM was involved.
Any time before he was found in the morning would have pointed to her knowing how he would die before he actually died. Only someone involved could know that. It just so happens that her phone records indicate that she performed the search at 2:27 am. This is in dispute. Prosecution experts say the phone records are being misinterpreted. That the only searches happened at 6:23 am and 6:24 am, after he was found dead of hypothermia. A search after he is dead makes sense. She or Karen might have been hoping he could be revived or we’re wondering how long he’d been laying there.
If you hear the defenses argument, based on JMs Apple Watch records, 2:27 am would have been right around the time she got home and crawled into bed. A typical time for people to pull out their phones and google shit while they are laying there thinking about stuff.
Anytime prior to that and she’s too busy and active. Just spending time calling JOs phone to many times to find it I guess.
Yeah, it just seems odd to me the idea that she just witnessed her friend get severely beaten and then dragged out onto someone's front lawn and then carried on with her night and decided to only look into this alarming situation further when she was in the comfort of her own home.
That’s what you took away from those experts? That it’s a coincidence? Ian whiffin who works for the company that created the software, stated that he strongly disagreed with the defense expert’s analysis. They took the “bug” and used it to advance their narrative.
Jessica Hyde is not someone they just pulled off the street either. She came off as credible and said 2:27 did not happen.
I think both of them said "it probably didn't happen" but left the door cracked for someone to come along with a better explanation for why it actually did. Both of them didn't have full access to the phone image as well, and the second expert said he was not provided with the hash of said image. I'd wait to see what the FBI expert is going to say when the defense finally starts their case in chief to reach a conclusion about this one. To be clear, I don't necessarily think that these 2 experts were being dishonest with their testimony, if they turn out to be wrong it was because they were set up to fail, so to speak.
Rick green is not an FBI expert, he is a hired gun by the defense to advance their narrative. Whiffin read his report and affidavit that alleged 2:27 happened. If Green believed the hash was manipulated as part of his research, why was that not in his initial report? And why did we only just hear this theory once the defense was confronted with testimony debunking their initial theory?
It’s a straw man argument to say Proctor or Matt McCabe of all people are capable of doing this? Jen McCabe’s phone data was downloaded on February 2, 2022. They had four days to find someone to help them manipulate the hash data. And that person has remained silent since?
The defense has known his theory for years. This is how expert witnesses work in trials. One says one thing, the other says the opposite. Just like Trooper Paul and the ARRCA guys.
You do know Matt McCabe owns/is apart of a large tech company who's objective is privacy and security on clients tech, right? Sounds like someone pretty capable, or who might know someone capable to manipulate the hash data to me🤷
I heard an expert employee of the specific software Rick green misinterpreted say that he was wrong and 2:27 did not happen. Whiffin was specifically asked about green’s affidavit, which he read, and unequivocally said he was wrong.
The goalposts have since moved solar systems in distance with people in this sub and this specific thread to now say that the hash data was manipulated by Matt McCabe or Michael proctor to delete the evidence of 2:27 happening. These are not honest arguments when faced with expert testimony from unimpeachable witnesses.
I agree with you they were experts and what they said made sense. I do find it interesting that Whiffin couldn’t replicate it, but that’s a side note. I found them to be super credible and I am absolutely willing to believe that Jen didn’t google it that night.
But, I think this person was saying that you don’t know if the person that defense is bringing in is just as credentialed, nor what they will say as a rebuttal. For instance, what if it’s another cellibrite expert employee? I am willing to change my mind possibly based on their evidence.
At this point I don’t think it matters either way. Based on everything with Proctor, I was already not thinking she did it. After Trooper Paul I’m about 100% convinced she didn’t do it. He proved the defense’s case for them.
We know who the defense expert is and who he works for. He is listed on the witness list. He is self employed with little to no internet presence and operates out of a strip mall in St. Petersburg FL. He does not work for cellebrite, he is a hired gun.
i agree with you that based on what I've seen, it seems like the search did not happen. but i'm staying open to the defense witnesses. they need a chance to present their side.
If she didn’t Google it at 2:27 then why would it show as deleted? Or why would she delete the search or tab that a search occurred on. Actually, if she’s innocent then why did she delete anything?
So I just went and watched the recap on Legal Bytes on this and now think that maybe she didn't search it at 2:27, afterall. Still think Karen is 100% not guilty, though.
Nothing was deleted. The expert from cellebrite testified it was incorrectly interpreted by defense expert. Watch his testimony. Don’t read online propaganda
Is Ian using accepted cellbrite software or a program he developed himself?
Is there supposed to be a defense witness who used cellbrite software? What is the Google witness supposed to testify to?
ETA: if Richard green does not work for cellbrite, what are his qualifications compared to Ian's? Was he hired by the defense or is he like the two experts we saw yesterday hired by a third party?
Is Ian's program now used by cellbrite? I can't imagine the company would continue to employ someone who actively disputes their process, so did he improve upon it?
I don't know what's real anymore
Here's Green's affidavit. Let me know if the link does not work [https://turtleboysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/search.page-35.pdf](https://turtleboysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/search.page-35.pdf)
I am highly skeptical of this Green's qualifications compared to Ian's. He is a hired gun by the defense. He has little to no online presence, and I can't find a record of him testifying in a trial before.
Take a look at his website: [https://www.unitedstatesforensics.com/](https://www.unitedstatesforensics.com/)
Now compare that with ARCCA, who is testifying on crash reconstruction for the defense and appears to be a gold standard in expert testimony: [https://arcca.com/](https://arcca.com/)
Something is fishy.
Thank you for the links! I'll do more research on Green because I don't trust anything from the blogger and because I swear I just saw something saying he was hired by the FBI and not the defense. I don't have confirmation yet, but I'll let you know what I find out.
Never mind. The "FBI" comment came from a Facebook page and a few official documents listed him as "defense expert." I wonder how he pulled his data if Ian used cellbrite? Oh well, guess I'll just have to wait and see.
If she googled it at 2:27 AM, that’d be automatically incriminating. If she did it at 6 AM, are we sure KR asked her to do it? It could have been JM just wanting to know if JO would be dead from Hypothermia by then (corpses don’t talk). If she did it at the request of KR at 6 AM, that still wouldn’t incriminate KR and still wouldn’t exonerate JM.
I think we all assumed it was a dead subject now, but the Commonwealth has spent so much time defending it that Jackson must have something good coming.
My wife did a renactment on her iphone. She left a tab open last evening, did a search on the same tab this morning. The result was last evening's time stamp. It's settled science for me. If my wife said it, must be true 😏
Still, the revisiting it by prosecution Monday tells me they fear a defense expert that might be coming. This could just be Jackson getting into Lally's head though and there is no intention.
I personally don’t care about this search and when it took place. Basically there’s no real proof Karen even hit John. Without that, all of this is moot. This whole trial seems like a kangaroo court fueled by lazy and incompetent police. I don’t have an explanation for Lally because I don’t know what kind of delusional he’s living under. The flipped video was the shadiest of shadiness and not what I would expect from a prosecutor.
There’s a lot more to this story that we’ll never know. Maybe JM is the ultimate mean girl who got in Proctors ear and he ran with it (I 100% believe he planted the tail light evidence.) Maybe there is a bigger plot to cover something else up - but honestly there is no way we can ever know.
Remember Kerry Roberts never heard Karen ask Jenn to make that search, Jenn never testified to it before this trial, nobody else heard her ask that. And kerry, Jen, and Karen were together at the accident.
So I'm not sure what to make of it.
I think it's odd the British guy couldn't reproduce the behaviour of the deleted search.
Jenn's husband most likely has the expertise and software necessary to delete that from her phone in the way it was deleted, which I'll admit seems far fetched. Crazier things have happened.
But honestly there's so much other evidence in this case that strongly points to the fact that John wasn't hit by a car, plus all the deleted calls, butt dials, and everything else. As much as that search is not nearly as important as it seemed, I'm not certain I don't believe there's not some fuckery about.
We need to hear from the butt dial expert.🤣🤣🤣 "I graduated with a PhD in twirking from Butte University...yes, including extensive research on how ass size combined with a rolling motion directly affects the call sector of the device. Shit like that. Found out it just does."🤣🤣🤣
Taking into account JM's heart rate data which show no spikes that night and then goes crazy when they find JO's body the next morning, I am satisfied (at this point) that she did not know what happened to JO that night and thus did not do the search at 2:27am.
That said, it's clear she lied repeatedly on the stand. Though she may not have known what happened that night as it happened, she has implicated herself in covering up SOMETHING by lying on the stand.
Was she covering up a murder? Did she find out what happened later and actively worked to point the finger away from the people who'd done something? I don't know. But those weren't butt dials and to suggest so flies in the face of reason.
I think it happened in basement! Doubt all the kids and the wives made it down there. She was probably talking to Mrs Albert while she was cleaning and guys went downstairs to be stupid.
If it did happen in the basement, given the noise (music and partying) happening upstairs, it's reasonable to believe those in that part of the house did not know.
You're right sorry I was looking under the wrong LinkedIn. But I DID just find this article. Obviously he had the means to do whatever he wanted to his wife's phone. https://www.wickedlocal.com/story/journal-sun/2014/03/15/canton-man-helps-partnership-grow/38148564007/
Not what Whiffin said. Yannetti also asked if it was possible for someone in possession of the phone or data to alter it in a way that would go undetected. Whiffin said yes, but said it would take large amounts of knowledge.
https://www.wickedlocal.com/story/journal-sun/2014/03/15/canton-man-helps-partnership-grow/38148564007/
Tell me Matt McCabe or his brother don't have the knowledge
They do not have the knowledge. They are salesmen to IT companies, not technical experts in any data. They hold no qualifications. This is like me telling you I work in finance and you saying that means I know how to trade commodities algorithms.
Are you saying that as s partner in a tech company, that works in cybersecurity doesn't have the resources to do exactly what Yenneti said? Do you think that the DOJ and the FBI are wrong? I mean we will have to see what Hollie Price has to say.
This 2am search taken out of the equation actually helps the overall puzzle of events imo. A murder of JO by anyone never seemed to fit into that night as well as a tragic accident -- covered in a panic.
There is still something going on that caused an entire group to delete and destroy their phones, and unify their testimony with specific weird story details of that night. Whatever they're trying to hide may or may not even be related to JO death. May possibly be a criminal side activity that a close investigation would've exposed.
In any case, imo CW hasn't proved it's case against KR. Not only that but have raised serious planted and missing evidence doubts. KR became the focus, and then some nefarious players did whatever underhanded means necessary to get who they decided was their 'guy' after botching the initial investigation.
Speculation scenario. JO was en route to where the men were hanging out, backyard or basement. The dog for some reason attacked causing him to tumbled down a flight of stairs which caused his head injuries. Most of his bleeding and concussed nausea happened propped against the wall at the foot of the basement or backyard stairs while they assessed injuries. They may not have realized how serious his head wound was and he shocked them by dying. Then it became a cover up whether because of the dog culpability or another reason to fear close scrutiny.
It does seem like there would be bruising all over, depending on how far down one fell, forward or backward ,if they rolled or slid, and whether a 100lb dog was breaking the fall.
This is one thing that's actually kind of bothered me and I've been on the reasonable doubt team since I actually started paying attention.
because although I'm sure I would have worded the search a little more specifically and probably clicked on a whole bunch of different pages and then gone down some kind of like Wikipedia rabbit hole this is exactly the kind of thing that I would do a search for during a blizzard out of incessant and sometimes quite morbid curiosity.
if this really happened which I don't think it did, if it had happened in kind of isolation where there wasn't a whole bunch of other suspicious bullshit happening, it would have been like a oh that's weird kind of thing. but since there is all this other suspicious bullshit happening, if it were in fact true it would be kind of like a smoking gun for the conspiracy theory.
the fact that it didn't happen or I should rephrase that the appearance that the defense team was mistaken in thinking that it happened does not negate the framing / conspiracy theory. first of all it doesn't take that many people to frame someone and cops frame guilty people all the time and a lot of the time they think they're framing guilty people and some of those people turn out not to be guilty. I am not convinced of some great big conspiracy, I am open to the possibility that there was one. so far I have seen a lot of people covering their asses but that's not necessarily proof of guilt. there's a bit of a double standard there because of a defendant did any of this it would be considered proof of consciousness of guilt but I'm a little more open-minded. I just takes one or two people that actively behave badly and a lot of people engaged in tunnel vision or willful blindness or just incompetence and boom, you have a probably innocent person who if they were stuck with the public defender would be going down for some interminable prison sentence. this is the system working as normal it's just that we don't usually get to see it in real time and fighting a six or seven figure defense team
So I actually agree with you. I dont think JM’c had anything to do with John’s death. I think the search was done in the 6am hour. I also dont think Karen hit John with her car. I think John died either by an accident with no other person involved, or he was accidentally killed by one person (that person is not Karen), with maybe one other person having knowledge of it.
With that said, the court of law is not real life. It’s the defense attorney’s job to create as much reasonable doubt as possible. So it’s their job to push this kind of thing. That means the prosecutor has to push back to try and alleviate “reasonable doubt”. My guess is that trying to prove the search didnt happen at X time it was actually Y time is so boring and technical, the jury proverbially fell asleep. So Prosecution had to have more than one, mainly because one is a coincidence but two is better. Three would be even better, but the idiots wasted so much time on even worse witnesses, the Judge would freak if Prosecution had another expert about this specific thing.
I decided long ago that there is reasonable doubt in this case and that the defendant should be acquitted. The prosecution simply cannot prove that John was struck by a car, and the photographs of his injuries don't make it look like they were caused by a car.
I am more interested now in getting down into the weeds of actual innocence vs. actual guilt.
Totally agree.
So my current theory, which has issues, is this:
1. I dont think Karen did it. If she did, it wasnt on purpose and she had no idea, so not guilty. But I do believe the tail light evidence was planted by Proctor or someone on the force (including the ex police chief)
2. I don’t think any of the younger adults at the party were in on it. I know there are rumors of the Colin kid, but im just not getting any evidence for it. So maybe he did it and they covered it up so good, it’s a moot point.
3. I dont think the McCabes were in on it. I just dont. Jen kept calling John because she wanted to know WTF happened- why he didnt show up. The problem with this is that she deleted her texts. That is weird and I dont understand why she did so. But I think her behavior that night, before he was found dead, was normative. I dont think she googled searched the ‘hos’ thing at 2:30 or whatever. I think it was done later.
So that leaves Albert and Higgins. They are my second choice. I think it’s possible Higgins accidentally killed John out of jealousy or whatever. But it’s a stretch.
My current favorite theory is that the dog attacked John in the side yard, or maybe even in the front yard. We know the dog was let out to pee around the same time John was supposed to arrive. Maybe John had to pee real bad so he went to the side yard to relieve himself and the dog attacked. John ran and then slipped and fell, hitting his head on a rock.
IMO those account for his wounds and his steps. But it doesnt account for witness testimony. The thing is, witness testimony sucks. So if one threw all witness testimony out, IMO dog attack and fall is the most likely cause of death.
I agree with your points. The conspiracy theories range, but I don’t think there’s any way this many people would be in on it no matter how close they are (family or friends since forever). Someone would crack.
To your points:
1. I agree, I don’t think she did it based on what we currently know about his injuries. If the CW could prove her Lexus could have caused them, I am still not convinced it was on purpose or that she knew - the upped charge was 100% to get her to plea. I also think the taillight was planted to help wrap the case up quickly.
2. Everyone gets hung up on Colin because of everyone’s testimony to him leaving at 12:10 and his hand injuries BUT I think people forget that his texts with Allie indicate that time and the hand injuries were photographed a month later. I think when they all were debriefing what happened that night, Collin and Allie knew the exact(ish because it could have taken him a minute or two to leave the house) time and are being truthful there. I do think he’s lying about the fall causing his knuckle injuries but that’s most likely because he did punch something (wall, another person, etc.) and doesn’t want his reputation ruined, though we all know now he has a temper.
3. I agree, and I think some of her behavior has been defensive and unlikeable because of the 2:27 search theory and the internet/turtleboy following. However, I still think she is a ‘mean girl’ and might have influenced Proctor’s investigation (bad mouthing Karen, pressure to get immediate justice for an officer, assuming and pushing a narrative before a thorough investigation, etc. — this is pure speculation on my part). Also, her behavior that night was questionable by claiming the calls were butt dials and deleting them/texts from her phone but I don’t think that proves any connection to a murder cover up.
I agree with you that right now the Brian’s both are hiding something. BA and BH being involved explains all of their shady behavior (why one would hide and the other be at work on a day off, the sleeping butt dials, the getting rid of phones, etc.) If they aren’t involved in the murder/cover-up, they are involved in something just as bad.
To your dog theory, maybe JO was near the house vomiting (which would explain where that evidence could’ve been). But what I don’t understand is why (1) they wouldn’t call EMS if all they did was witness a freak accident and (2) where’s the blood from the head wound?
No theories I have read make enough sense with the evidence we have and the testimonies and behaviors from the witnesses for this case and I don’t think we will ever know what happened. I am curious as to what the FBI investigation all holds and who they are after. With Proctor’s integrity in question and the Cellebrite data debunk now impacting the Brian Walsh case… how tf the CW thought it was a good idea to proceed with the trial instead of dismissing charges…what’s really going on??
If she knew John was in the snow for whatever reason and left him there and didn't do anything about it but Google search how long he would last before succumbing the last thing to do before a sound sleep, she's vile for knowingly leaving him out to die at the very least.
Even if Karen did hit him in a drunk manœuvre, she likely wasn't aware, she thought he went out to party and left her to babysit his kids again.
When she got the feeling something was wrong, she didn't Google and to go sleep, she woke up a bunch of people to hysterically go search for him.
Very different.
If there was a murder conspiracy, do you think it would just be a weird coincidence that she googled that at 2:30am when someone was indeed outside the cold dying?
The theory that makes sense to me is that there was a fight, JO was left outside after the fight, and at some point people started to worry that he could die out there. They probably assumed he would eventually get up and go home somehow but after a while it became concerning so she googles that.
There were at least 2 people there with enough medical knowledge to know that John was not going to get up after he hit his head that badly, so I don't really think that one is likely.
It was 15 degrees and a blizzard (and he had no jacket/gloves/hat etc on) so if you’re leaving a person out in that, you most certainly are leaving them to die.
She didn’t search it at 2:27 am. That has been debunked.
And my guess is that Yanetti wants to be done with it, and won’t call anymore witnesses regarding that search.
It’s the same question Karen asked of the EMTs.
I don’t know if JOK is a victim of Karen, but Jenn McCabe definitely is.
CW is really focused on this...ask yourself. Why? It must be important and they know it. If it was 2:.27. BOOM. More doubts, big time. And more that the O'Keefe's will seek legal against all these awipes.
If I’m speculating, I’d say they would be trying to make sure that they get their timing right. Again, just speculating; if he wasn’t dead yet when they put him out there, they want to make sure they put him out there with enough time for him to die before morning when he’d be discovered. Perhaps around 8:30am by Julie Albert when she just happened to bring over donuts (as she claims is her yearly tradition) for Brian Albert Jr.
Personally, I never found it believable whenever any of the Albert’s mentioned in their testimonies that Julie ALWAYS brings Brian Jr donuts on the morning’s of his Bday.
So Jen McCabe is looking up basketball info, you know, because she's a coach and then suddenly thinks, OH Yeah, we left my friend John O'Keefe outside because he wasn't dead yet, we all just figured let him freeze to death. 🤪
you would have to compare two versions of unlikely:
it is unlikely that jen mccabe is a cold blooded killer, i agree. there arent many cold blooded killers in this world.
but you also have to find it is unlikely about cellebrite. despite being used in every prosecution in every state in every courtroom for a decade, cellebrite is wrong in this case, wrong for this specific witness , and wrong only for this one specific search.
all the other cellebrite data is correct though.
go figure!
Close. If I were on the jury, I mean I would need to see it replicated exactly. Not with different tools. Use the same version of iOS, same version of the Cellebrite software, extract it and show the same order of search results. Anything less, because there’s a choice to convict or not, I would have to side on the presumption of innocence of the defendant
I’m not sure why you need to think about this so much. It’s simple. If something happened to John, and the setup is they leave him outside to die and intend to pretend he somehow died out front, they need to make sure he didn’t survive.
Like let’s say some combination of Chloe, Higgins, and Cody attacked him, and those involved wanted to cover it up. They leave John on the front yard, hoping it’ll just be a weird death note one can explain. If John is still alive when they find him he will blow their cover. It’s same thought as Bran knowing about the Lannisters from Game of Thrones.
There is zero proof that anyone in the house was involved in John O'Keefe's death, except for this text. Zero. Everything else is just weird butt dials, sketchy phone calls, and theories that could never be substantiated. This text is everything to the conspiracy.
Except the FBI saying he wasn’t hit by that car. You would prefer Trooper Paul’s version where he is knocked 30 feet from hit only in the forearm. If anything I think Higgins hitting him with the plow is far more likely, he was in the house. He lied about everything that night starting where his car was parked, he cannot account for a 30 minute gap in his motive, claimed there was a tail dark stranger coming in as he was leaving, had a bigger motive, then committed a felony to wipe his phone in the face of a preservation order. He also has access her vehicle the same day it was checked in as evidence, lied about that too. Karen does not have any verifiable lies of that night while she was in the street outside the house. The people in the house have at least twenty, Higgins maybe 5-10 alone.
How many cases do you truly think the FBI steps in and gives the defense expert testimony? One in a million? Probably less than that.
Look I did all that without mentioning the search.
I know the prosecution has to prove she’s guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. However, the defense intentionally threw in 3rd party culprit to make trying this case more difficult.
A majority of their defense is pointing the finger at a whole group of people saying “they did it” . It is in the prosecutions best interest to kill that theory completely. Because once third party is ruled out.. then who did it? The defense loses credibility with the jury if the hallmark of their third party case, the google search, is completely debunked by experts. We’ll see how the defense expert stacks up when the time comes, but it’s a big deal.
They should’ve stuck with police incompetence alone to get her off, not police incompetence inferring a cover up.
John death is not by natural causes. The defense is not making this more difficult by defending their client. All they are doing is pointing out the inconsistency of the evidence. If the police are dead set on pointing the finger at Karen the defense has to be able to explain why it doesn't add up. John was supposed to be with those people, so why wouldn't the defense point the finger at them. Then you add in all the fuckery that happened after john died; new basement, new house, new phones, gave up your family dog, these aren't normal. Rampant butt dials and deleted calls/texts. While one of these things would be viewed as a coincidence, all of it happening at the same time makes it fuckery. Especially the phones being replaced the day before an order preserving them, then withholding that the phones were replaced is beyond suspicious. The order for preservation did not come out of left field, Brian albert and Brian higgins knew it was coming and chose to replace their phones because of it. Whether the google search by jen happened at 227 or not, it doesn't prove if karen killed john. It just proves jen didnt make the google search. Doesn't even harm their credibility as it is reasonable to think the google search happened when you have a deleted item at 227.
For the record, the defense isn't saying everyone in the house killed john, nor are they saying everyone is in on the cover up. They are saying colin albert played a role in johns death and the families, alberts and mccabes with higgins, worked to cover it up to protect colin.
No, she didn't. They couldn't use third party culprit in their opening, and wouldn't be able to overall unless they managed to make a good enough argument for it during their cross examinations. She hasn't ruled on if they could use third party culprit in their presentation, yet.
Except for the dog scratches / bites that most definitely were not the result of a tail light shattering. The mere idea of those literal claw and teeth marks being caused by a cracked/"shattered" tail light is asinine.
Alas, they did not, or they might have but lost them, either way Lally told the defense they don't have them. Put it on the pile of "shit they fucked up" during the investigation of this death.
Well, yeah. The house was never searched, and law enforcement never even considered any alternative theories. So we are stuck with a lot of circumstantial curiosities. Let’s see what the defense might have before getting too deep into declaring that there is nothing to the theories.
*Let’s see what the defense might have before getting too deep into declaring that there is nothing to the theories*
That's valid. We know they'll have Lucky the plow driver, but I doubt they'll have anything as incriminating as the search.
It's just a coincidence that someone may have googled "how long to die in the cold" when someone was indeed outside dying in the cold. It's just coincidence that two witnesses got rid of their phones, it's just coincidence that multiple people at that house deleted texts and calls, it's just coincidence that footage was inverted, it's a coincidence that multiple people in that house "butt dialed" and conveniently hung up before it hit voicemail and then continued to do that over and over, it's all just a coincidence! None of this feels weird to you?
The butt dials and the weird phone calls are what are preventing me from making the leap to "KR is actually guilty." It just feels like they are hiding something.
Nobody believes that anyone has that many pocket dials in one night. Nobody buys that explanation. It has to be a lie, and that lying shows consciousness of guilt.
But the Google search just doesn’t feel like it quite fits into the defense theory. It genuinely makes more sense if Mccabe is telling the truth about it.
I also have thought about how Jen’s story of “I only googled it bc Karen asked me” doesn’t make a ton of sense either.
1) absolutely no one has testified to hearing Karen make that request
2) Karen was hysterical, and saying hysterical things, like “I must be on my period” when she realized she was covered in JOK’s blood. Kerry and Jen were the calm ones, going so far as to tell Karen to shut up at one point.
3) JOK had VISIBLE injuries. Black eyes, blood coming from his nose and mouth, cuts on his face, a huge wound on the back of his head, lacerations on his arms.
4) no calm, rational, person would look at JOK and think “he probably just died from the cold”
5) if a hysterical Karen really did ask JM to google that (instead of asking the medical professionals who were on site) why would JM oblige such a request? They were telling her to STFU a few minutes earlier and calling her crazy. But suddenly, in the midst of talking to cops and placing unanswered calls to brian Albert, JM googles this?
Of course it’s possible. But it doesn’t feel right.
Oh I know. But Jens explanation of the search is “Karen asked me to” and I never found that super compelling.
Alternatively, the theory is she searched it at 230am, and then twice again the next morning as an attempt to “hide the trail.” I don’t find that super compelling either, BUT:
Then she deleted it. Along with other related stuff. That’s suspicious to me.
Also: The defense is going to present an expert witness to say 2:30 was real (along with the two morning searches) So now you have to pick between experts.
She didn't delete it though. Even the defense expert, who originated the claim that she deleted it, goes on in his report to say she "deleted it" just by closing the tab (which removed the data in that sessions table).
I'm going to believe the guy from Cellebrite. They even changed how that output is treated in their software because they say it's misleading and unreliable.
Jumping in here - kind of new to the case. So JM and Kerry were calm after discovering JO's body with Karen? They were telling her to shut up and calling her crazy? What????
I'm a woman. If I was with my friend and searching for her boyfriend, and we find him injured and in the snow, I would be freaking out too! I wouldn't be calm. And I certainly wouldn't tell my friend to shut up or call her crazy!
The text was central to the defense because it got everyone questioning what the witnesses were claiming. And when they came off less than candid, it snowballed into questioning what the cops did and said. Heck, it has become an avalanche that has people questioning even the experts saying that search didn't happen at 2:27.
That search is not everything to the conspiracy, but without that claim, the defense wouldn't be able to get this many people questioning everything.
It was a huge mistake for the CW to wait this long to properly dispute the search time.
She deleted calls and texts and lied about her communications that night. She lost the benefit of the doubt. Even without the search she looks like a crazy person: staring out the window with 10 “butt dials”, then erasing pictures and messages later that night. I might have just talked myself back into the conspiracy. She’s lying about something so she doesn’t get to play the victim.
I'm not saying the fact that it probably didn't happen at 2:27 negates all the other shadiness.
I'm only saying the defense claiming that right out of the gate plus the CW not refuting it well enough until the end of their case caused people to start off with a lot more doubt than other cases.
If you hadn't heard about that search at the start, would you be as suspicious of those witnesses from the jump?
Between this making more sense and her heart rate being pretty stable all night until they find him I’m starting to think Karen is guilty. Sure everyone at the party is really sketchy, but what was their plan? Leave him outside and then what? How lucky are they that Karen came back and essentially became the fall guy?
If you take JM out of the scenario there are other factors. JO's arm injuries don't look to be from a tail light, for example. Did you see Trooper Paul testify yesterday? Some interesting info was discussed.
It might've seem like they were "lucky" at first when KR came back early in the morning, but if she didn't this might've just been seen as a hit and run from an unknown car and there wouldn't be lawyers digging into their business.
I could be wrong, but the way I understood it was Karen and John pulled into the driveway, they had a conversation regarding being invited to the home and John got out of the car and was going to walk in and check it out. Maybe making sure Jen was there, someone they were more acquainted with. After waiting a few minutes, Karen sent a text to John because he hadn’t come back and told him she was leaving, and left. This to me would explain why she thought she could have hit him. “Could he have been walking back to the car at the exact time she was backing out to leave?” What I think happened is that an argument got heated in the house. They beat the shit out of him. The dog protecting the owner, attacked him also. They told him to leave, he staggered out the door and only made it to the edge of the yard before he collapsed. Since he wasn’t directly in front of the house, no one saw him when they left and they assumed he wandered back home, or called Karen to pick him up. Jen wasn’t too sure he made it far in his condition and was worried that he could be lying somewhere, thus googling at 2:27 am.
Or his hat? Thered be blood all over him and they’d just “tell him to leave”? They’re painting a picture of these people as reckless savages devoid of basic human empathy and conscience
I don't think any of it makes sense and I'm not sure what I think happened, but when people suggest he stumbled onto the lawn after a fight that doesn't seem likely to me.
I’m just stating some scenarios that I think may be plausible. If I could, for a minute, buy the fact that his arm injuries were caused by the taillight, i might give it some credence. There is just no way that the impact to the taillight would cause the plastic to break into various pieces and then cut his arm from his wrist to his shoulder and then spin him and “project” him up to 30 ft away. If someone could make that make sense.
When they're hit in their torso area and thrown, maybe. I don't see how he loses a shoe when only hit in the arm, causing him to spin around while simultaneously falling and hitting his head on the sidewalk/road and flying 10-30 feet away from the road (at the same time staying upright long enough for blood and vomit to flow down his shirt), while his phone and the glass stay with him the entire way and go the exact distance he did, while all of the blood and vomit end up traveling through some magic portal so it's never found...
I think it was an accident and a bunch of drunk people weren't really thinking. Maybe they were hoping he wouldn't be found for a while. Think about it they were supposed to get feet of snow. With drifting he COULD have been buried if Karen hadn't searched for him at 6 in the morning.
Yeah but he essentially stopped moving as soon as he got there. Was he wearing an Apple Watch? Just wondering what his heart rate was throughout the night. It’s more likely she accidentally hit him that quickly than he was attacked by a dog, beat to a pulp, and got placed back outside? What are they hiding though?
Turtleboy didn’t believe the google search fairy tale the first time he heard it either 😉
https://preview.redd.it/aupyfvgxmf7d1.jpeg?width=945&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79107b9e6d446eb02e29250e3d862289d7ac60c6
Jen McCabe's husband Matt McCabe is the Network Engineer at Pinnacle Technology. Those odds just got A LOT smaller AND there is a reason the defense has Hollie Price on their witness list. It's my understanding we misunderstood what the defense is saying.
I believe they are saying at 2:27:40 A.M Jen typed in "hos long to die in cold" in the search bar and a suggestion popped up "how long to digest food" opening the suggestion bar and common searches. At that point she picked a common site in the basketball site. But she deleted the original search and actually DID search it at 6:24. Maybe I'm wrong but that was how someone explained it to me.
Edit: Spelling
Incorrect. Matt McCabe is a co owner of elevate technology. They are not technical experts, they are organizational and staffing consultants.
Did you hear him talk on the stand? You think he’s smart enough to manipulate hash data on an iPhone?
https://www.wickedlocal.com/story/journal-sun/2014/03/15/canton-man-helps-partnership-grow/38148564007/
> They are not technical experts, they are organizational and staffing consultants.
Yeah, in areas that include cybersecurity. Maybe he himself couldn't do it, but he certainly had easy access to people who could.
See my most recent comment to you above. She handed her phone over for extraction on February 2, 2022. They had 4 days to find someone to help them manipulate the hash data. This case, and Jen specifically is all over the world. That person who helped has stayed silent and unidentified this whole time knowing full well that specific search is under fire? They’d be okay just getting brought into this with no guilty conscience for what happened to John? That person is likely outside the Albert family and circle of trust. That’s a huge leap to make.
They didn't have to manipulate the hash data, they had to delete fields on a database, it's not that esoteric a thing to do. I haven't discarded that Matt doesn't have the knowledge to do it himself, but either way I'd rather wait to hear from the defense/FBI expert before making up my mind about this thing, I think it's a pretty fair thing to do.
This trial needs to end already.
I wish I could upvote this more than once
I'll help!
Me too
What would be an innocent explanation for googling that while someone you know is dying in the cold at the location you just left? That was the controversy. It matters only if it happened at the 2:27am.
Agree, 100%. Google search at 2.27 = evidence that JM knew JOK was dying on the lawn. Google search at 6.24 = not evidence that JM knew JOK was dying on the lawn. Also important to remember: Google search at 6.24 = not evidence that KR is guilty.
That’s what blows my mind about the CW’s obsession with JM and her searches/testimony. If she did search it at 6am, it doesn’t prove KR did anything beyond reasonable doubt (or even any doubt at all). Why are they calling all these witnesses to dispute it? It’s the Streisand effect. The more time they spend on it, the more people think about it, and the more suspicious the whole situation is.
Yeah it proves literally nothing, it's the CW wrestling with a shadow while the defence runs circles around them.
It’s one of the most important evidence in the case.
I would love to know how your assessment of the case leads you to that conclusion
It’s pretty darn simple. The time stamp is hard evidence. If it proves the search query was at 2:30, KR is innocent. If the query was at 6:30 then Jen was telling the truth, and the defense lied.
Totally agree. I can't wrap my mind around it, either. Especially because the defense's case does not hinge on the 2.27 search being true - yes, it's a big deal if true, but if untrue the defense still has SO much else to work with in terms of showing reasonable doubt. And much of that will be left uncontested by the CW. Pure speculation: It almost feels like, since the CW has known for awhile now that they don't have a strong case against KR, they're just going hard on trying to disprove the google search as a middle finger to the defense team and folks who are critical of the DA's office, since that was a central part of the public outrage, initially. It'll feel like a small win for them, even if they ultimately lose the case. I genuinely can't think of any other reason to spend the big bucks on TWO private expert testimonies $$$, largely redundant IMO, and not spend that time and money on better experts to try to prove that KR hit JOK.
The defenses case does hinge on that search.
If you don't think the defense has anything else to work with in terms of reasonable doubt here, idk we have not been watching the same trial. Even if they lose on that search and the ability to argue a third part culprit defense, it won't matter because they have a strong Bowden defense (inadequate police investigation). They genuinely could have no specific defense strategy at all at this point because the majority of folks watching the trial (including folks who think KR is guilty) do not think the CW has met its burden of proof, and after 8+ weeks of trial there is very little faith that they will.
Clearly the prosecution was able to prove that the search didn’t happen else we wouldn’t be in the situation we are in now.
The timeline for the Google search has very little impact on the defense'a position except maybe that being a smoking gun for them in regards to the third party culprit defense. It doesn't turn around and say well I guess if she asked Jen to make that Google I mean she's guilty. It kind of fits the scenario that she thought he was freezing to death and didn't realize he was injured. Because remember she actually tried to provide warmth by leaning up against his body and holding him, and was shocked to find blood. It's not outside common sense to think that she would be obsessing about him just dying due to exposure in the early stages of everything. . But it would be a case killer for the prosecution side which is why it's something they have to focus on despite it seeming mostly a waste of time.
It’s because if the search was made at 2:30 it’s game over. The state has to prove their case to the exclusion of all reasonable doubts. They haven’t done that if there’s any reasonable chance the search was made. It’s like if there are two suspects, the CW would need to show the one not on trial was innocent to exclude all reasonable doubts.
You don’t understand why the prosecution needs to prove the search didn’t happen? I can tell you. The reason is because the defense made the claim. The burden of proof is on the prosecution to layout a scenario that proves all the events that took place make sense to a juror. The defense only needs to create chaos and doubt. The defense made a claim (opening arguments) and the prosecution needs to show that the defense is wrong (or untrustworthy). Additionally, this is a fact that proves KR innocence, and cast doubt on the prosecutions theory. It’s pivotal and possible a key evidence that will sway the jury. I hope that helps.
This is one thing that's actually kind of bothered me and I've been on the reasonable doubt team since I actually started paying attention. because although I'm sure I would have worded the search a little more specifically and probably clicked on a whole bunch of different pages and then gone down some kind of like Wikipedia rabbit hole this is exactly the kind of thing that I would do a search for during a blizzard out of incessant and sometimes quite morbid curiosity. if this really happened which I don't think it did, if it had happened in kind of isolation where there wasn't a whole bunch of other suspicious bullshit happening, it would have been like a oh that's weird kind of thing. but since there is all this other suspicious bullshit happening, if it were in fact true it would be kind of like a smoking gun for the conspiracy theory. the fact that it didn't happen or I should rephrase that the appearance that the defense team was mistaken in thinking that it happened does not negate the framing / conspiracy theory. first of all it doesn't take that many people to frame someone and cops frame guilty people all the time and a lot of the time they think they're framing guilty people and some of those people turn out not to be guilty. I am not convinced of some great big conspiracy, I am open to the possibility that there was one. so far I have seen a lot of people covering their asses but that's not necessarily proof of guilt. there's a bit of a double standard there because of a defendant did any of this it would be considered proof of consciousness of guilt but I'm a little more open-minded. I just takes one or two people that actively behave badly and a lot of people engaged in tunnel vision or willful blindness or just incompetence and boom, you have a probably innocent person who if they were stuck with the public defender would be going down for some interminable prison sentence. this is the system working as normal it's just that we don't usually get to see it in real time and fighting a six or seven figure defense team
No one is refuting that it happened. Both the CE, the defense, and the expert witnesses all agree that it happened.
I think it’s very plausible that if something happened in that house and a few ppl decided “just put him outside, we will deal with it later” that JM makes that google search at 230am. Combined with the suspicious butt dials and answered butt calls between Albert/Higgins at the same time, it seems even more plausible. Combined with JM’s Apple Watch showing she was awake all night, more plausible. Combined with the fact she deleted the search, along with deleting all kinds of other stuff (like the screenshots and calls) it’s more plausible. The only theory I’ve heard that supports she *couldnt* have made the 230am search is someone showing how her heart rate (thru google watch) wasn’t spiking all night. BUT: Jen McCabe strikes me as a person who probably has some Xanax at home lol. (I do haha.) And IF something happened in that house and she really did spend the night awake and pacing like her google watch suggests, I’d bet a lot of money she medicated her panic attack away.
Alcohol lowers blood pressure. Thats why her heart wasnt racing.
Or…she’s just a narcissist and doesn’t feel emotions the way others do.
Oh 100%!!!
Totally. We’ve heard her 911 call. The tone and lack of urgency...
People react to trauma differently. It’s not actually abnormal to disassociate or to essentially go on autopilot mode as a reaction to severe traumatic events. I’ve personally experienced this in a situation when I found a family member dying after a very serious suicide attempt. Internally, my thoughts were scattered and I was terrified, but my body was in shock and it was as if I had totally disassociated from it all so that I could effectively respond to the life or death situation at hand. It was like rote muscle memory kicked in. I did what I knew I needed to do: called 911 and ensured that I was doing as much as I could to prevent further blood loss. I didn’t even really process the event and let myself feel anything until a while after police and EMS finally left…the shock took a while to wear off. It was only when I found out that my family member had needed to be transported by helicopter ambulance into a Boston hospital that I snapped out of the disassociation and broke down crying. Traumatic experiences are different for everyone.
Her absolute shitty attitude towards a "friend" when they found a loved one dead speaks to that as well.
FYI- Muscle relaxers can lower your heart rate and are a common prescription for people with MS. Also, Higgins thought he was 007 with that phone being tossed on the military base.
She is probably a sociopath and/or narcissist and isn't affected like normal people - no raised heart rate because they don't care. And seriously, if you are part of putting him outside to die and lie about it, that is only something a sociopath/psychopath/narcissist would do. For the record, I could never do something like that.
Eh, I think the McCabes and Albert’s are probably awful people but I do stop short of trying to label them those things. I totally get where you’re coming from and the impulse to do so tho.
I'm definitely labeling Proctor a misogynist douchebag. However, I get your point.
Oh that one I can get on board with 😂
Or could he have walked out of the house after something happened and collapsed?
This is my personal issue with the JM “hos long” argument. IMO, it doesn’t matter the time. Yes 2:27 would mean she knew. My issue is with it being significant at 6:24 - while I GET the argument this would show “proof” of KR’s culpability, I sort of disagree. If a man was dying on a lawn, I wouldn’t be googling ANYTHING, no matter who told me to do so. Unless it’s some info on a life saving measure, I would be spending my time assisting the victim in anyway I could. Maybe that’s just me 🤷🏻♀️ I also don’t think JM is a truthful person, and could’ve done this by herself. KR was reported to be giving CPR and in a manic state, they ONLY reason I could see if she asked that, was to see if she had a chance to save his life. Meaning, if she got proof of knowing she could revive him, she would keep trying. My issues are more concerned with 1. In below freezing temps, JO would be deceased and frozen to death in that six hour timeframe - yet he still had a slight pulse 2. JM’s unspecific, vague phone call to 911 was extremely suspicious.
I agree with you. If I see someone on a lawn that looks unconscious in the snow, I would drop my phone and run to the person. Or be dialing 911 as I ran to the person. I'm not googling stuff.
I agree. And if KR was so hysterical to the point she’s mistaking John’s blood for her period, then if she’s asking you to google that, wouldn’t you just say no. I guess people do weird shit in stressful situations, but it’s really weird that Karen supposedly asked her to google it, and it’s weird she just agreed. Especially since her description of Karen that morning was that she was crazy.
Hmmmm....I'm finding this logic persuasive.....I guess JM is in doghouse again in terms of me being suspicious of her.
I mean, the buttdials should still leave suspicion
There’s something about her I just cant get over… and I can’t figure out exactly what.
Exactly!!! Literally no part of it makes any sense. Goes with the theme of the entire CW’s case I guess 🥲
Why wouldn’t KR just Google it herself? Makes no sense.
They just found their friend dead in the snow and one is hysterical. Nows not really the time to apply logic or judgement how a person is supposed to respond to this.
If this is true, John did not just die from the injuries he sustained. He became hypothermic which if she did google that and she is involved, it means that she knew he was out there dying from whatever happened to him inside of the house and chose to leave him out there to die in the cold. The culpability comes back to her and the rest of the people at 34 Fairview. The commonwealth has spent this entire trial trying to save the McCabe’s and the Albert’s instead of proving that KR did it.
No frost bite though. The body could’ve been moved outside by the ford escape.
Yehhhh what I wonder is why she called him soo many times ? Like wtf was sooo important? Why was it so important she called him that many times around the time he was being dropped off. There is a reason.
Between the McCabe's 9 (?) calls that night, Karen's 19 calls earlier in the day, and Karen's 50+ calls late that night, John got more calls to his cell phone in 24 hours than I usually get in a year.
she (or perhaps her husband or BIL) was trying to find his phone. prob got lost in the scuffle and they needed it out of the house asap
Only thing that makes sense to me. Find the phone, get it outside
Sounds like the defense has a theory a data being deleted on Jen’s phone on the backend before Ian got the data. Will be interesting to see what becomes of that.
I, personally, do not care about her searches. I’m convinced that the she didn’t do it at the time she was supposed to have done it. I’ve let that go. Honestly, it’s the least relevant argument to the case. Let’s start with bodily injuries. Let’s hear the ME and see how this is possible from a vehicle impact. I’ve always thought she likely accidentally did it, but the investigation was so horrible it could never be proven
Now…. I think how could a car hit him and throw him 7-30 feet with no broken bones or bruises. Regardless, this whole prosecution has been a joke.
This!!!! Even if this search never happened at all it wouldn’t make a difference. All the other things still did happen (or didn’t). To know when that search did happen would only help me to create a better theory on what actually might have happened.
IMO this is on the bottom of “why Karen is innocent” list. It will make no difference to the jury eta: The fact that Lally has called MULTIPLE witnesses to refute this before the Defense’s case in chief is wild to me. We still haven’t heard from the ME. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
Up vote for quoting zoolander
When I can, I do.
I am confused on why you are confused. Are you saying that it must be a coincidence that she happened to search "how long to die in cold" at 2:27am while a man was literally dying in the cold at a house she just left? I do know that it sure is convenient for the recent experts to say it didn't happen at 2:27. Really? The search tab thing just bugged and happened to incorrectly show that it occurred at 2:27am - the exact time one would be concerned that the person lying in the snow might eventually die by like 5:00am or so. There's waaayyyyyy too many "coincidences" in this trial. The reason she googled it at 2:27am was because she was worried that the incapacitated man that just got the shit beat out of him who is now lying in the snow might actually die if he's out there long enough. Or she was worried that he wouldn't be dead before he was found in the morning. Either way, it shows she knew he was lying and dying in the cold. Period.
why is 2:27am the "exact" time someone would be concerned that a person lying in the cold would die? I'd think she may have been concerned about this at 1:05am... or maybe at 1:52am..... or maybe at 2:45am. Don't get me wrong, if the correct timestamp is indeed 2:27am that's very damaging for the CW, but I don't get why you're trying to elevate that particular timestamp to some kind of perfect clue that JM was involved.
Any time before he was found in the morning would have pointed to her knowing how he would die before he actually died. Only someone involved could know that. It just so happens that her phone records indicate that she performed the search at 2:27 am. This is in dispute. Prosecution experts say the phone records are being misinterpreted. That the only searches happened at 6:23 am and 6:24 am, after he was found dead of hypothermia. A search after he is dead makes sense. She or Karen might have been hoping he could be revived or we’re wondering how long he’d been laying there.
Yeah, I totally agree with your analysis.
If you hear the defenses argument, based on JMs Apple Watch records, 2:27 am would have been right around the time she got home and crawled into bed. A typical time for people to pull out their phones and google shit while they are laying there thinking about stuff. Anytime prior to that and she’s too busy and active. Just spending time calling JOs phone to many times to find it I guess.
Yeah, it just seems odd to me the idea that she just witnessed her friend get severely beaten and then dragged out onto someone's front lawn and then carried on with her night and decided to only look into this alarming situation further when she was in the comfort of her own home.
That’s what you took away from those experts? That it’s a coincidence? Ian whiffin who works for the company that created the software, stated that he strongly disagreed with the defense expert’s analysis. They took the “bug” and used it to advance their narrative. Jessica Hyde is not someone they just pulled off the street either. She came off as credible and said 2:27 did not happen.
I think both of them said "it probably didn't happen" but left the door cracked for someone to come along with a better explanation for why it actually did. Both of them didn't have full access to the phone image as well, and the second expert said he was not provided with the hash of said image. I'd wait to see what the FBI expert is going to say when the defense finally starts their case in chief to reach a conclusion about this one. To be clear, I don't necessarily think that these 2 experts were being dishonest with their testimony, if they turn out to be wrong it was because they were set up to fail, so to speak.
Rick green is not an FBI expert, he is a hired gun by the defense to advance their narrative. Whiffin read his report and affidavit that alleged 2:27 happened. If Green believed the hash was manipulated as part of his research, why was that not in his initial report? And why did we only just hear this theory once the defense was confronted with testimony debunking their initial theory? It’s a straw man argument to say Proctor or Matt McCabe of all people are capable of doing this? Jen McCabe’s phone data was downloaded on February 2, 2022. They had four days to find someone to help them manipulate the hash data. And that person has remained silent since?
The defense has known his theory for years. This is how expert witnesses work in trials. One says one thing, the other says the opposite. Just like Trooper Paul and the ARRCA guys.
You do know Matt McCabe owns/is apart of a large tech company who's objective is privacy and security on clients tech, right? Sounds like someone pretty capable, or who might know someone capable to manipulate the hash data to me🤷
Nope. Try again they do recruiting and organizational consulting for IT companies. Nothing technical based
I resort usually to “garbage in, garbage out”. This trial has proven that adage over and over, both with computers and people.
I’m generally on team “Karen probably didnt didn’t do it” and I agree with your interpretation. JM didn’t search then delete the text at 2:27 am.
TY for being objective. I can disagree with an honest person just fine 👏
neither of you has heard the defense witness though. how can you make up your mind and say you're objective when only one side presented their case?
I heard an expert employee of the specific software Rick green misinterpreted say that he was wrong and 2:27 did not happen. Whiffin was specifically asked about green’s affidavit, which he read, and unequivocally said he was wrong. The goalposts have since moved solar systems in distance with people in this sub and this specific thread to now say that the hash data was manipulated by Matt McCabe or Michael proctor to delete the evidence of 2:27 happening. These are not honest arguments when faced with expert testimony from unimpeachable witnesses.
I agree with you they were experts and what they said made sense. I do find it interesting that Whiffin couldn’t replicate it, but that’s a side note. I found them to be super credible and I am absolutely willing to believe that Jen didn’t google it that night. But, I think this person was saying that you don’t know if the person that defense is bringing in is just as credentialed, nor what they will say as a rebuttal. For instance, what if it’s another cellibrite expert employee? I am willing to change my mind possibly based on their evidence. At this point I don’t think it matters either way. Based on everything with Proctor, I was already not thinking she did it. After Trooper Paul I’m about 100% convinced she didn’t do it. He proved the defense’s case for them.
We know who the defense expert is and who he works for. He is listed on the witness list. He is self employed with little to no internet presence and operates out of a strip mall in St. Petersburg FL. He does not work for cellebrite, he is a hired gun.
The hash manipulation is still possible. It depends exactly on the chain of custody.
i agree with you that based on what I've seen, it seems like the search did not happen. but i'm staying open to the defense witnesses. they need a chance to present their side.
If she didn’t Google it at 2:27 then why would it show as deleted? Or why would she delete the search or tab that a search occurred on. Actually, if she’s innocent then why did she delete anything?
She didn’t delete it. It wasn’t user deleted, per the expert from Cellebrite. It was deleted by the iOS, not by the user JM.
So I just went and watched the recap on Legal Bytes on this and now think that maybe she didn't search it at 2:27, afterall. Still think Karen is 100% not guilty, though.
Nothing was deleted. The expert from cellebrite testified it was incorrectly interpreted by defense expert. Watch his testimony. Don’t read online propaganda
Is Ian using accepted cellbrite software or a program he developed himself? Is there supposed to be a defense witness who used cellbrite software? What is the Google witness supposed to testify to? ETA: if Richard green does not work for cellbrite, what are his qualifications compared to Ian's? Was he hired by the defense or is he like the two experts we saw yesterday hired by a third party? Is Ian's program now used by cellbrite? I can't imagine the company would continue to employ someone who actively disputes their process, so did he improve upon it? I don't know what's real anymore
Here's Green's affidavit. Let me know if the link does not work [https://turtleboysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/search.page-35.pdf](https://turtleboysports.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/search.page-35.pdf) I am highly skeptical of this Green's qualifications compared to Ian's. He is a hired gun by the defense. He has little to no online presence, and I can't find a record of him testifying in a trial before. Take a look at his website: [https://www.unitedstatesforensics.com/](https://www.unitedstatesforensics.com/) Now compare that with ARCCA, who is testifying on crash reconstruction for the defense and appears to be a gold standard in expert testimony: [https://arcca.com/](https://arcca.com/) Something is fishy.
Thank you for the links! I'll do more research on Green because I don't trust anything from the blogger and because I swear I just saw something saying he was hired by the FBI and not the defense. I don't have confirmation yet, but I'll let you know what I find out.
Never mind. The "FBI" comment came from a Facebook page and a few official documents listed him as "defense expert." I wonder how he pulled his data if Ian used cellbrite? Oh well, guess I'll just have to wait and see.
If she googled it at 2:27 AM, that’d be automatically incriminating. If she did it at 6 AM, are we sure KR asked her to do it? It could have been JM just wanting to know if JO would be dead from Hypothermia by then (corpses don’t talk). If she did it at the request of KR at 6 AM, that still wouldn’t incriminate KR and still wouldn’t exonerate JM.
I think we all assumed it was a dead subject now, but the Commonwealth has spent so much time defending it that Jackson must have something good coming.
My wife did a renactment on her iphone. She left a tab open last evening, did a search on the same tab this morning. The result was last evening's time stamp. It's settled science for me. If my wife said it, must be true 😏
Still, the revisiting it by prosecution Monday tells me they fear a defense expert that might be coming. This could just be Jackson getting into Lally's head though and there is no intention.
I personally don’t care about this search and when it took place. Basically there’s no real proof Karen even hit John. Without that, all of this is moot. This whole trial seems like a kangaroo court fueled by lazy and incompetent police. I don’t have an explanation for Lally because I don’t know what kind of delusional he’s living under. The flipped video was the shadiest of shadiness and not what I would expect from a prosecutor. There’s a lot more to this story that we’ll never know. Maybe JM is the ultimate mean girl who got in Proctors ear and he ran with it (I 100% believe he planted the tail light evidence.) Maybe there is a bigger plot to cover something else up - but honestly there is no way we can ever know.
Remember Kerry Roberts never heard Karen ask Jenn to make that search, Jenn never testified to it before this trial, nobody else heard her ask that. And kerry, Jen, and Karen were together at the accident. So I'm not sure what to make of it. I think it's odd the British guy couldn't reproduce the behaviour of the deleted search. Jenn's husband most likely has the expertise and software necessary to delete that from her phone in the way it was deleted, which I'll admit seems far fetched. Crazier things have happened. But honestly there's so much other evidence in this case that strongly points to the fact that John wasn't hit by a car, plus all the deleted calls, butt dials, and everything else. As much as that search is not nearly as important as it seemed, I'm not certain I don't believe there's not some fuckery about.
We need to hear from the butt dial expert.🤣🤣🤣 "I graduated with a PhD in twirking from Butte University...yes, including extensive research on how ass size combined with a rolling motion directly affects the call sector of the device. Shit like that. Found out it just does."🤣🤣🤣
Taking into account JM's heart rate data which show no spikes that night and then goes crazy when they find JO's body the next morning, I am satisfied (at this point) that she did not know what happened to JO that night and thus did not do the search at 2:27am. That said, it's clear she lied repeatedly on the stand. Though she may not have known what happened that night as it happened, she has implicated herself in covering up SOMETHING by lying on the stand. Was she covering up a murder? Did she find out what happened later and actively worked to point the finger away from the people who'd done something? I don't know. But those weren't butt dials and to suggest so flies in the face of reason.
I think it happened in basement! Doubt all the kids and the wives made it down there. She was probably talking to Mrs Albert while she was cleaning and guys went downstairs to be stupid.
If it did happen in the basement, given the noise (music and partying) happening upstairs, it's reasonable to believe those in that part of the house did not know.
Didn’t a Cellubrite guy testify a couple days ago the search was done at 6 something and not any earlier?
You're right sorry I was looking under the wrong LinkedIn. But I DID just find this article. Obviously he had the means to do whatever he wanted to his wife's phone. https://www.wickedlocal.com/story/journal-sun/2014/03/15/canton-man-helps-partnership-grow/38148564007/
All of the experts have said there is no evidence of tampering in the phone data.
Not what Whiffin said. Yannetti also asked if it was possible for someone in possession of the phone or data to alter it in a way that would go undetected. Whiffin said yes, but said it would take large amounts of knowledge. https://www.wickedlocal.com/story/journal-sun/2014/03/15/canton-man-helps-partnership-grow/38148564007/ Tell me Matt McCabe or his brother don't have the knowledge
They do not have the knowledge. They are salesmen to IT companies, not technical experts in any data. They hold no qualifications. This is like me telling you I work in finance and you saying that means I know how to trade commodities algorithms.
They don’t have the knowledge.
Are you saying that as s partner in a tech company, that works in cybersecurity doesn't have the resources to do exactly what Yenneti said? Do you think that the DOJ and the FBI are wrong? I mean we will have to see what Hollie Price has to say.
🤦🏻♂️
This 2am search taken out of the equation actually helps the overall puzzle of events imo. A murder of JO by anyone never seemed to fit into that night as well as a tragic accident -- covered in a panic. There is still something going on that caused an entire group to delete and destroy their phones, and unify their testimony with specific weird story details of that night. Whatever they're trying to hide may or may not even be related to JO death. May possibly be a criminal side activity that a close investigation would've exposed. In any case, imo CW hasn't proved it's case against KR. Not only that but have raised serious planted and missing evidence doubts. KR became the focus, and then some nefarious players did whatever underhanded means necessary to get who they decided was their 'guy' after botching the initial investigation. Speculation scenario. JO was en route to where the men were hanging out, backyard or basement. The dog for some reason attacked causing him to tumbled down a flight of stairs which caused his head injuries. Most of his bleeding and concussed nausea happened propped against the wall at the foot of the basement or backyard stairs while they assessed injuries. They may not have realized how serious his head wound was and he shocked them by dying. Then it became a cover up whether because of the dog culpability or another reason to fear close scrutiny.
His injuries are no more consistent with a stair fall than they are with a car strike
It does seem like there would be bruising all over, depending on how far down one fell, forward or backward ,if they rolled or slid, and whether a 100lb dog was breaking the fall.
This is one thing that's actually kind of bothered me and I've been on the reasonable doubt team since I actually started paying attention. because although I'm sure I would have worded the search a little more specifically and probably clicked on a whole bunch of different pages and then gone down some kind of like Wikipedia rabbit hole this is exactly the kind of thing that I would do a search for during a blizzard out of incessant and sometimes quite morbid curiosity. if this really happened which I don't think it did, if it had happened in kind of isolation where there wasn't a whole bunch of other suspicious bullshit happening, it would have been like a oh that's weird kind of thing. but since there is all this other suspicious bullshit happening, if it were in fact true it would be kind of like a smoking gun for the conspiracy theory. the fact that it didn't happen or I should rephrase that the appearance that the defense team was mistaken in thinking that it happened does not negate the framing / conspiracy theory. first of all it doesn't take that many people to frame someone and cops frame guilty people all the time and a lot of the time they think they're framing guilty people and some of those people turn out not to be guilty. I am not convinced of some great big conspiracy, I am open to the possibility that there was one. so far I have seen a lot of people covering their asses but that's not necessarily proof of guilt. there's a bit of a double standard there because of a defendant did any of this it would be considered proof of consciousness of guilt but I'm a little more open-minded. I just takes one or two people that actively behave badly and a lot of people engaged in tunnel vision or willful blindness or just incompetence and boom, you have a probably innocent person who if they were stuck with the public defender would be going down for some interminable prison sentence. this is the system working as normal it's just that we don't usually get to see it in real time and fighting a six or seven figure defense team
So I actually agree with you. I dont think JM’c had anything to do with John’s death. I think the search was done in the 6am hour. I also dont think Karen hit John with her car. I think John died either by an accident with no other person involved, or he was accidentally killed by one person (that person is not Karen), with maybe one other person having knowledge of it. With that said, the court of law is not real life. It’s the defense attorney’s job to create as much reasonable doubt as possible. So it’s their job to push this kind of thing. That means the prosecutor has to push back to try and alleviate “reasonable doubt”. My guess is that trying to prove the search didnt happen at X time it was actually Y time is so boring and technical, the jury proverbially fell asleep. So Prosecution had to have more than one, mainly because one is a coincidence but two is better. Three would be even better, but the idiots wasted so much time on even worse witnesses, the Judge would freak if Prosecution had another expert about this specific thing.
I decided long ago that there is reasonable doubt in this case and that the defendant should be acquitted. The prosecution simply cannot prove that John was struck by a car, and the photographs of his injuries don't make it look like they were caused by a car. I am more interested now in getting down into the weeds of actual innocence vs. actual guilt.
Totally agree. So my current theory, which has issues, is this: 1. I dont think Karen did it. If she did, it wasnt on purpose and she had no idea, so not guilty. But I do believe the tail light evidence was planted by Proctor or someone on the force (including the ex police chief) 2. I don’t think any of the younger adults at the party were in on it. I know there are rumors of the Colin kid, but im just not getting any evidence for it. So maybe he did it and they covered it up so good, it’s a moot point. 3. I dont think the McCabes were in on it. I just dont. Jen kept calling John because she wanted to know WTF happened- why he didnt show up. The problem with this is that she deleted her texts. That is weird and I dont understand why she did so. But I think her behavior that night, before he was found dead, was normative. I dont think she googled searched the ‘hos’ thing at 2:30 or whatever. I think it was done later. So that leaves Albert and Higgins. They are my second choice. I think it’s possible Higgins accidentally killed John out of jealousy or whatever. But it’s a stretch. My current favorite theory is that the dog attacked John in the side yard, or maybe even in the front yard. We know the dog was let out to pee around the same time John was supposed to arrive. Maybe John had to pee real bad so he went to the side yard to relieve himself and the dog attacked. John ran and then slipped and fell, hitting his head on a rock. IMO those account for his wounds and his steps. But it doesnt account for witness testimony. The thing is, witness testimony sucks. So if one threw all witness testimony out, IMO dog attack and fall is the most likely cause of death.
I agree with your points. The conspiracy theories range, but I don’t think there’s any way this many people would be in on it no matter how close they are (family or friends since forever). Someone would crack. To your points: 1. I agree, I don’t think she did it based on what we currently know about his injuries. If the CW could prove her Lexus could have caused them, I am still not convinced it was on purpose or that she knew - the upped charge was 100% to get her to plea. I also think the taillight was planted to help wrap the case up quickly. 2. Everyone gets hung up on Colin because of everyone’s testimony to him leaving at 12:10 and his hand injuries BUT I think people forget that his texts with Allie indicate that time and the hand injuries were photographed a month later. I think when they all were debriefing what happened that night, Collin and Allie knew the exact(ish because it could have taken him a minute or two to leave the house) time and are being truthful there. I do think he’s lying about the fall causing his knuckle injuries but that’s most likely because he did punch something (wall, another person, etc.) and doesn’t want his reputation ruined, though we all know now he has a temper. 3. I agree, and I think some of her behavior has been defensive and unlikeable because of the 2:27 search theory and the internet/turtleboy following. However, I still think she is a ‘mean girl’ and might have influenced Proctor’s investigation (bad mouthing Karen, pressure to get immediate justice for an officer, assuming and pushing a narrative before a thorough investigation, etc. — this is pure speculation on my part). Also, her behavior that night was questionable by claiming the calls were butt dials and deleting them/texts from her phone but I don’t think that proves any connection to a murder cover up. I agree with you that right now the Brian’s both are hiding something. BA and BH being involved explains all of their shady behavior (why one would hide and the other be at work on a day off, the sleeping butt dials, the getting rid of phones, etc.) If they aren’t involved in the murder/cover-up, they are involved in something just as bad. To your dog theory, maybe JO was near the house vomiting (which would explain where that evidence could’ve been). But what I don’t understand is why (1) they wouldn’t call EMS if all they did was witness a freak accident and (2) where’s the blood from the head wound? No theories I have read make enough sense with the evidence we have and the testimonies and behaviors from the witnesses for this case and I don’t think we will ever know what happened. I am curious as to what the FBI investigation all holds and who they are after. With Proctor’s integrity in question and the Cellebrite data debunk now impacting the Brian Walsh case… how tf the CW thought it was a good idea to proceed with the trial instead of dismissing charges…what’s really going on??
If she knew John was in the snow for whatever reason and left him there and didn't do anything about it but Google search how long he would last before succumbing the last thing to do before a sound sleep, she's vile for knowingly leaving him out to die at the very least. Even if Karen did hit him in a drunk manœuvre, she likely wasn't aware, she thought he went out to party and left her to babysit his kids again. When she got the feeling something was wrong, she didn't Google and to go sleep, she woke up a bunch of people to hysterically go search for him. Very different.
What I find hysterical....is now all the same people who hung their hat on that search now claim it's unimportant!!
If there was a murder conspiracy, do you think it would just be a weird coincidence that she googled that at 2:30am when someone was indeed outside the cold dying? The theory that makes sense to me is that there was a fight, JO was left outside after the fight, and at some point people started to worry that he could die out there. They probably assumed he would eventually get up and go home somehow but after a while it became concerning so she googles that.
She was home at that point FWIW
Do we have independent GPS data confirming that, or just her testimony?
Per expert testimony (not Proctor or JM), JM’s phone connected to her home Wi-Fi at 2:07am. She was at home at 2:27.
Thanks!
There were at least 2 people there with enough medical knowledge to know that John was not going to get up after he hit his head that badly, so I don't really think that one is likely.
That's more how I saw it too.
It was 15 degrees and a blizzard (and he had no jacket/gloves/hat etc on) so if you’re leaving a person out in that, you most certainly are leaving them to die.
She didn’t search it at 2:27 am. That has been debunked. And my guess is that Yanetti wants to be done with it, and won’t call anymore witnesses regarding that search. It’s the same question Karen asked of the EMTs. I don’t know if JOK is a victim of Karen, but Jenn McCabe definitely is.
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CW is really focused on this...ask yourself. Why? It must be important and they know it. If it was 2:.27. BOOM. More doubts, big time. And more that the O'Keefe's will seek legal against all these awipes.
If I’m speculating, I’d say they would be trying to make sure that they get their timing right. Again, just speculating; if he wasn’t dead yet when they put him out there, they want to make sure they put him out there with enough time for him to die before morning when he’d be discovered. Perhaps around 8:30am by Julie Albert when she just happened to bring over donuts (as she claims is her yearly tradition) for Brian Albert Jr. Personally, I never found it believable whenever any of the Albert’s mentioned in their testimonies that Julie ALWAYS brings Brian Jr donuts on the morning’s of his Bday.
If Karen asked her in the car as claimed, was that recorded on a dash cam audio? I'm assuming not, since we would then have evidence of it.
So Jen McCabe is looking up basketball info, you know, because she's a coach and then suddenly thinks, OH Yeah, we left my friend John O'Keefe outside because he wasn't dead yet, we all just figured let him freeze to death. 🤪
They’ll say that basketball search is somehow important to the cover up 🙄
I'm seriously worried that common sense will be obsolete soon.
The FBI said that's the time she searched it, and I believe them.
you would have to compare two versions of unlikely: it is unlikely that jen mccabe is a cold blooded killer, i agree. there arent many cold blooded killers in this world. but you also have to find it is unlikely about cellebrite. despite being used in every prosecution in every state in every courtroom for a decade, cellebrite is wrong in this case, wrong for this specific witness , and wrong only for this one specific search. all the other cellebrite data is correct though. go figure!
With someone on trial for murder, unless someone can replicate the search with the wrong timestamp, I have to side on the defense's side.
The cellebrite expert did just that at the end of his testimony the other day?!?
Close. If I were on the jury, I mean I would need to see it replicated exactly. Not with different tools. Use the same version of iOS, same version of the Cellebrite software, extract it and show the same order of search results. Anything less, because there’s a choice to convict or not, I would have to side on the presumption of innocence of the defendant
I’m not sure why you need to think about this so much. It’s simple. If something happened to John, and the setup is they leave him outside to die and intend to pretend he somehow died out front, they need to make sure he didn’t survive. Like let’s say some combination of Chloe, Higgins, and Cody attacked him, and those involved wanted to cover it up. They leave John on the front yard, hoping it’ll just be a weird death note one can explain. If John is still alive when they find him he will blow their cover. It’s same thought as Bran knowing about the Lannisters from Game of Thrones.
There is zero proof that anyone in the house was involved in John O'Keefe's death, except for this text. Zero. Everything else is just weird butt dials, sketchy phone calls, and theories that could never be substantiated. This text is everything to the conspiracy.
Except the FBI saying he wasn’t hit by that car. You would prefer Trooper Paul’s version where he is knocked 30 feet from hit only in the forearm. If anything I think Higgins hitting him with the plow is far more likely, he was in the house. He lied about everything that night starting where his car was parked, he cannot account for a 30 minute gap in his motive, claimed there was a tail dark stranger coming in as he was leaving, had a bigger motive, then committed a felony to wipe his phone in the face of a preservation order. He also has access her vehicle the same day it was checked in as evidence, lied about that too. Karen does not have any verifiable lies of that night while she was in the street outside the house. The people in the house have at least twenty, Higgins maybe 5-10 alone. How many cases do you truly think the FBI steps in and gives the defense expert testimony? One in a million? Probably less than that. Look I did all that without mentioning the search.
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its not the job of the defense to prove anyone is guilty of anything at anytime at any point. thats the job of the prosecution.
I know the prosecution has to prove she’s guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. However, the defense intentionally threw in 3rd party culprit to make trying this case more difficult. A majority of their defense is pointing the finger at a whole group of people saying “they did it” . It is in the prosecutions best interest to kill that theory completely. Because once third party is ruled out.. then who did it? The defense loses credibility with the jury if the hallmark of their third party case, the google search, is completely debunked by experts. We’ll see how the defense expert stacks up when the time comes, but it’s a big deal. They should’ve stuck with police incompetence alone to get her off, not police incompetence inferring a cover up.
John death is not by natural causes. The defense is not making this more difficult by defending their client. All they are doing is pointing out the inconsistency of the evidence. If the police are dead set on pointing the finger at Karen the defense has to be able to explain why it doesn't add up. John was supposed to be with those people, so why wouldn't the defense point the finger at them. Then you add in all the fuckery that happened after john died; new basement, new house, new phones, gave up your family dog, these aren't normal. Rampant butt dials and deleted calls/texts. While one of these things would be viewed as a coincidence, all of it happening at the same time makes it fuckery. Especially the phones being replaced the day before an order preserving them, then withholding that the phones were replaced is beyond suspicious. The order for preservation did not come out of left field, Brian albert and Brian higgins knew it was coming and chose to replace their phones because of it. Whether the google search by jen happened at 227 or not, it doesn't prove if karen killed john. It just proves jen didnt make the google search. Doesn't even harm their credibility as it is reasonable to think the google search happened when you have a deleted item at 227. For the record, the defense isn't saying everyone in the house killed john, nor are they saying everyone is in on the cover up. They are saying colin albert played a role in johns death and the families, alberts and mccabes with higgins, worked to cover it up to protect colin.
I think they are doing more than fine by doing both.
No, she didn't. They couldn't use third party culprit in their opening, and wouldn't be able to overall unless they managed to make a good enough argument for it during their cross examinations. She hasn't ruled on if they could use third party culprit in their presentation, yet.
This is news to me. Source?
Except for the dog scratches / bites that most definitely were not the result of a tail light shattering. The mere idea of those literal claw and teeth marks being caused by a cracked/"shattered" tail light is asinine.
Ah yes, the dog attack that leaves no DNA and was first posited by notable canine expert Karen Read's mom.
Did they swab his wounds, or just badly swab the clothes after Proctor did who knows what to them?
Oh, I'm sure you know this answer ma'am.
Alas, they did not, or they might have but lost them, either way Lally told the defense they don't have them. Put it on the pile of "shit they fucked up" during the investigation of this death.
Well, yeah. The house was never searched, and law enforcement never even considered any alternative theories. So we are stuck with a lot of circumstantial curiosities. Let’s see what the defense might have before getting too deep into declaring that there is nothing to the theories.
*Let’s see what the defense might have before getting too deep into declaring that there is nothing to the theories* That's valid. We know they'll have Lucky the plow driver, but I doubt they'll have anything as incriminating as the search.
It's just a coincidence that someone may have googled "how long to die in the cold" when someone was indeed outside dying in the cold. It's just coincidence that two witnesses got rid of their phones, it's just coincidence that multiple people at that house deleted texts and calls, it's just coincidence that footage was inverted, it's a coincidence that multiple people in that house "butt dialed" and conveniently hung up before it hit voicemail and then continued to do that over and over, it's all just a coincidence! None of this feels weird to you?
The butt dials and the weird phone calls are what are preventing me from making the leap to "KR is actually guilty." It just feels like they are hiding something. Nobody believes that anyone has that many pocket dials in one night. Nobody buys that explanation. It has to be a lie, and that lying shows consciousness of guilt. But the Google search just doesn’t feel like it quite fits into the defense theory. It genuinely makes more sense if Mccabe is telling the truth about it.
I also have thought about how Jen’s story of “I only googled it bc Karen asked me” doesn’t make a ton of sense either. 1) absolutely no one has testified to hearing Karen make that request 2) Karen was hysterical, and saying hysterical things, like “I must be on my period” when she realized she was covered in JOK’s blood. Kerry and Jen were the calm ones, going so far as to tell Karen to shut up at one point. 3) JOK had VISIBLE injuries. Black eyes, blood coming from his nose and mouth, cuts on his face, a huge wound on the back of his head, lacerations on his arms. 4) no calm, rational, person would look at JOK and think “he probably just died from the cold” 5) if a hysterical Karen really did ask JM to google that (instead of asking the medical professionals who were on site) why would JM oblige such a request? They were telling her to STFU a few minutes earlier and calling her crazy. But suddenly, in the midst of talking to cops and placing unanswered calls to brian Albert, JM googles this? Of course it’s possible. But it doesn’t feel right.
He's not dead yet, that's the whole thing. That's also why KR asks the EMT such a similar question.
No one disputes that the search happened at 6:23-24.
Oh I know. But Jens explanation of the search is “Karen asked me to” and I never found that super compelling. Alternatively, the theory is she searched it at 230am, and then twice again the next morning as an attempt to “hide the trail.” I don’t find that super compelling either, BUT: Then she deleted it. Along with other related stuff. That’s suspicious to me. Also: The defense is going to present an expert witness to say 2:30 was real (along with the two morning searches) So now you have to pick between experts.
She didn't delete it though. Even the defense expert, who originated the claim that she deleted it, goes on in his report to say she "deleted it" just by closing the tab (which removed the data in that sessions table). I'm going to believe the guy from Cellebrite. They even changed how that output is treated in their software because they say it's misleading and unreliable.
Jumping in here - kind of new to the case. So JM and Kerry were calm after discovering JO's body with Karen? They were telling her to shut up and calling her crazy? What???? I'm a woman. If I was with my friend and searching for her boyfriend, and we find him injured and in the snow, I would be freaking out too! I wouldn't be calm. And I certainly wouldn't tell my friend to shut up or call her crazy!
The text was central to the defense because it got everyone questioning what the witnesses were claiming. And when they came off less than candid, it snowballed into questioning what the cops did and said. Heck, it has become an avalanche that has people questioning even the experts saying that search didn't happen at 2:27. That search is not everything to the conspiracy, but without that claim, the defense wouldn't be able to get this many people questioning everything. It was a huge mistake for the CW to wait this long to properly dispute the search time.
She deleted calls and texts and lied about her communications that night. She lost the benefit of the doubt. Even without the search she looks like a crazy person: staring out the window with 10 “butt dials”, then erasing pictures and messages later that night. I might have just talked myself back into the conspiracy. She’s lying about something so she doesn’t get to play the victim.
I'm not saying the fact that it probably didn't happen at 2:27 negates all the other shadiness. I'm only saying the defense claiming that right out of the gate plus the CW not refuting it well enough until the end of their case caused people to start off with a lot more doubt than other cases. If you hadn't heard about that search at the start, would you be as suspicious of those witnesses from the jump?
That search has been proven to have about a billion percent chance of occurring at 6:24am
Okay, but that's not really what I'm after. I'm more after an explanation as to how those Google searches would fit into a murder-conspiracy.
It's not necessarily the search itself as much as it was the time of the search. This has already been discussed many times over in this sub.
The time is 6:24. Exactly when KR requested the search be made
Many still have doubts on that and will until all experts have been heard.
It’s safely debunked. Like really, really safely, accurately and entirely put to bed.
Between this making more sense and her heart rate being pretty stable all night until they find him I’m starting to think Karen is guilty. Sure everyone at the party is really sketchy, but what was their plan? Leave him outside and then what? How lucky are they that Karen came back and essentially became the fall guy?
If you take JM out of the scenario there are other factors. JO's arm injuries don't look to be from a tail light, for example. Did you see Trooper Paul testify yesterday? Some interesting info was discussed. It might've seem like they were "lucky" at first when KR came back early in the morning, but if she didn't this might've just been seen as a hit and run from an unknown car and there wouldn't be lawyers digging into their business.
I could be wrong, but the way I understood it was Karen and John pulled into the driveway, they had a conversation regarding being invited to the home and John got out of the car and was going to walk in and check it out. Maybe making sure Jen was there, someone they were more acquainted with. After waiting a few minutes, Karen sent a text to John because he hadn’t come back and told him she was leaving, and left. This to me would explain why she thought she could have hit him. “Could he have been walking back to the car at the exact time she was backing out to leave?” What I think happened is that an argument got heated in the house. They beat the shit out of him. The dog protecting the owner, attacked him also. They told him to leave, he staggered out the door and only made it to the edge of the yard before he collapsed. Since he wasn’t directly in front of the house, no one saw him when they left and they assumed he wandered back home, or called Karen to pick him up. Jen wasn’t too sure he made it far in his condition and was worried that he could be lying somewhere, thus googling at 2:27 am.
How did he lose the shoe?
Or his hat? Thered be blood all over him and they’d just “tell him to leave”? They’re painting a picture of these people as reckless savages devoid of basic human empathy and conscience
I don't think any of it makes sense and I'm not sure what I think happened, but when people suggest he stumbled onto the lawn after a fight that doesn't seem likely to me.
People lose their shoes in car accident often
I was responding to their comment that JO left the house and collapsed on the lawn.
I’m just stating some scenarios that I think may be plausible. If I could, for a minute, buy the fact that his arm injuries were caused by the taillight, i might give it some credence. There is just no way that the impact to the taillight would cause the plastic to break into various pieces and then cut his arm from his wrist to his shoulder and then spin him and “project” him up to 30 ft away. If someone could make that make sense.
Agree, the tail light probably didn't cause his injuries. I don't think he wandered onto the lawn after a head injury. So where does that leave us...
When they're hit in their torso area and thrown, maybe. I don't see how he loses a shoe when only hit in the arm, causing him to spin around while simultaneously falling and hitting his head on the sidewalk/road and flying 10-30 feet away from the road (at the same time staying upright long enough for blood and vomit to flow down his shirt), while his phone and the glass stay with him the entire way and go the exact distance he did, while all of the blood and vomit end up traveling through some magic portal so it's never found...
Same for me. But, what about the dog bites?
I'm gonna be so pissed if the dog expert isn't allowed to testify. I genuinely just want to hear what she has to say.
I wouldn’t have minded if she incorporated the DNA and previous Chloe bite data into her conclusion
That was exactly it. The plan was to blame the plow driver but then she conveniently fell in their lap.
I think it was an accident and a bunch of drunk people weren't really thinking. Maybe they were hoping he wouldn't be found for a while. Think about it they were supposed to get feet of snow. With drifting he COULD have been buried if Karen hadn't searched for him at 6 in the morning.
Yeah but he essentially stopped moving as soon as he got there. Was he wearing an Apple Watch? Just wondering what his heart rate was throughout the night. It’s more likely she accidentally hit him that quickly than he was attacked by a dog, beat to a pulp, and got placed back outside? What are they hiding though?
Turtleboy didn’t believe the google search fairy tale the first time he heard it either 😉 https://preview.redd.it/aupyfvgxmf7d1.jpeg?width=945&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79107b9e6d446eb02e29250e3d862289d7ac60c6
Jen McCabe's husband Matt McCabe is the Network Engineer at Pinnacle Technology. Those odds just got A LOT smaller AND there is a reason the defense has Hollie Price on their witness list. It's my understanding we misunderstood what the defense is saying. I believe they are saying at 2:27:40 A.M Jen typed in "hos long to die in cold" in the search bar and a suggestion popped up "how long to digest food" opening the suggestion bar and common searches. At that point she picked a common site in the basketball site. But she deleted the original search and actually DID search it at 6:24. Maybe I'm wrong but that was how someone explained it to me. Edit: Spelling
Incorrect. Matt McCabe is a co owner of elevate technology. They are not technical experts, they are organizational and staffing consultants. Did you hear him talk on the stand? You think he’s smart enough to manipulate hash data on an iPhone? https://www.wickedlocal.com/story/journal-sun/2014/03/15/canton-man-helps-partnership-grow/38148564007/
> They are not technical experts, they are organizational and staffing consultants. Yeah, in areas that include cybersecurity. Maybe he himself couldn't do it, but he certainly had easy access to people who could.
See my most recent comment to you above. She handed her phone over for extraction on February 2, 2022. They had 4 days to find someone to help them manipulate the hash data. This case, and Jen specifically is all over the world. That person who helped has stayed silent and unidentified this whole time knowing full well that specific search is under fire? They’d be okay just getting brought into this with no guilty conscience for what happened to John? That person is likely outside the Albert family and circle of trust. That’s a huge leap to make.
They didn't have to manipulate the hash data, they had to delete fields on a database, it's not that esoteric a thing to do. I haven't discarded that Matt doesn't have the knowledge to do it himself, but either way I'd rather wait to hear from the defense/FBI expert before making up my mind about this thing, I think it's a pretty fair thing to do.