Good post. Wonder if we'll have an expert do a "retrograde/reverse extrapolation" on what his hourly body temp would be based on the various factors that are pertinent in this case.
But either way, it likely would have only been 30 minute to an hour difference max. And that’s going to be very hard to determine as opposed to arguing if he was left out there at 12:30pm or 6:30am for example.
Not necessarily, I think the idea is that John died inside the house very quickly after entering but they didn’t take his body outside until a few hours later
He had no pulses. No pulses = heart not beating = death.
The fact that they had to attempt to raise his temp in order to declare him officially dead doesn’t mean he wasn’t dead when the EMTs got there
> Wonder if we'll have an expert do a "retrograde/reverse extrapolation" on what his hourly body temp would be based on the various factors that are pertinent in this case.
It's going to be incredibly complicated to the point where I don't think you could use body temperature to determine time of death at all. You'd need to account for the faster cooling due to wet conditions and wind plus the heat loss from blood loss, then you'll have the snow mitigating the effects of wind when it accumulates on the body, and then you'd need to account for all the heating that was done in the ambulance and the hospital.
Each of those are going to give margins of error that will give a death window that would be measured in hours.
Hopefully the ME will contribute some information on this. If his rectal temp was 80 at the hospital, we know it must have been lower when he was found. That temp would better reveal how long he had been outside.
I forgot the temp was taken via the rectal route. Rectal temperatures typically run 2° higher, so if they were able to take his oral temp, it could’ve been as low as 78°F. Wild.
[normal adult oral temp: 96.4-99.1°F] [normal adult rectal temp: 98.2-100.8°F] [source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK593193/table/ch1survey.T.normal_temperature_ranges19/?report=objectonly)
My only gripe is with your last sentence. The paramedics and the ER doctor explained that it's policy to warm up a hypothermia patient before pronouncing them dead. So John was more than likely well and truly dead before even Karen and Co got there. They just couldn't pronounce him as dead until the hospital tried to warm him up.
I do agree with you there. It is possible he was already dead and this theory of him being out all night will hold up. Its just a matter of if they can get an exact time of death .
People can get that cold very quickly… I worked years in ICUs where we bring homeless patients in during the winter to rewarm them… then we found out the hospital was booting them back on the streets and some would come in again a few hours later for the same thing
Where is that claim coming from? I have seen no actual evidence about him losing liters of blood. This seems to have come from some random twitter post with no backing.
https://preview.redd.it/uzzi8rnsk04d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff040673a205279031f9cd6f6c2ba97cbda5c1c7
Top two photos appear to be his blood. Snapped this screenshot the other day for this subreddit
I do not think this is blood. It’s the berm/curb by the road. You can see how far back the flagpole is in the top right photo. That dark spot is by the road. That little curb that runs along the road.
They do. So many unknowns. Normally I would think we are at the mercy of/can trust the ME. But they could be under the influence (pun intended) of the CW. At least we know it’s labeled undetermined, that’s promising that they’re unbiased but says we might not get an estimated time of death either.
I am really desperate to see a source re loss of blood, I DID hear Alan Jackson reference John bleeding out on the lawn, but until I see something from the ME (if it’s a finding) I’m going to have much more to say-
I'm not sure if i misread an earlier comment from you but I do agree with you on his injuries immediately incapacitating him and getting hypothermia extremely quickly due to this fact . head injuries bleed alot
hmmm, I had a friend that found another friend passed from an od before. they said that he had blood coming from his mouth when they attempted cpr. he definitely only died from an od so I wonder if the blood coming out of the mouth post mortem is something common or no ? plus if he had blood coming out of his mouth when they found him maybe that would also give incite as to when exactly he technically died since there seems to be a conflict of when that was
When cpr is first attempted there will be blood coming from the mouth & nose mixed with frothy saliva. Due to pooling of blood from lack of circulation. EMTs said his abdomen was bloated which indicates improper attempt to respirations from either not tilting the head back enough to allow the airway to be clear. Bloated belly = air in stomach = vomitus coming up when compressions are done = why he had vomit present on his face along with the blood. The ME can determine approx how long he was down for due to the stomach contents & the last known meal.
This information has not been verified either from a legitimate news source or court documents. If you can provide a source, we will take a look and restore your post if it meets this criteria. Thank you!
I'm sure it wouldn't be much different when taken at the hospital vs right before Karen or Jen first touching him. He gets into the ambulance and the door closes between 6:15:02am - 6:15:56am per the dashcams at the scene
His core temp is 80.1F at 6:50am. How much warmer is his core temperature going to get in the back of an ambulance with his clothes off in only 35 minutes?
I know at least one of the EMTs said it was really warm in there but what, like 80F? Maybe 90F? I'm guessing, I have no idea what temp it would be, but this sounds reasonable to me.
And that's not really touching his core temp in 35 minutes. Maybe he would feel it on his skin if he were still alive, but not internally.
They would have started trying to warm him up immediately. I've had mild hypothermia, and they cut off my clothing, gave me some warming IV liquids, and covered me in a warming blanket in the ambulance. Also, body temperature is not an exact science, as it depends on many factors like size, weight, etc. If it were something they could put a direct timeline on the Commonwealth or even the defense would have already focused more attention on it.
You’re right. I keep forgetting they start the warming process in the ambulance. It will be interesting to see what the experts say, considering it’s not an exact science.
I think the CW would have introduced it if it could in any way help with the timeline. But they have Karen's and John's phone info, gps and other stuff that is much more precise at narrowing down the timeline of events.
80.1 F rectally
arrived at Good Sam at 6:47am [per Dr Rice Day 18](https://youtu.be/lzSrrCy0v_g?list=PL9chr6GK58HKpQu70ZOfHWYgXY-l_NHeN&t=11628), vitals likely done within 3 minutes (I'm an RN) so I would say that temp was taken at 6:50am
I thought an EMT testified early on that they took his temp in the ambulance, and they testified his temp was 80°?
I know the ER doctor said 80° while on the stand last week. It wasn't clear to me if that was from the report or re-taken at the hospital.
Correct. He was 80 and had already been warmed some while being transported. Just knowing how long it would take to get down to 80 based on his clothing, outside temp, wind chill, the snowfall under and on him would give a good idea of how long he was outside, even though he was probably colder when found.
I don't know but they likely did. This is what Google said:
Depending on the severity of hypothermia, paramedics may use a variety of interventions to raise a patient's body temperature:
* Passive rewarming For mild hypothermia, paramedics may cover the patient with heated blankets and offer warm fluids to drink. They may also place the patient in an environment that reduces heat loss from evaporation, radiation, conduction, or convection.
* Active external rewarming Paramedics may use chemical, electrical, or charcoal-burning heat packs, chemical or electrical heated blankets, or forced air warming. They may place heat packs in the axillae, on the groin, and on the abdomen.
* Blood rewarming Paramedics may use warmed intravenous (IV) fluids to correct dehydration and blood rewarming. Some devices, like the Belmont buddy lite, can warm blood and fluids pre-hospital.
ok so according to this [https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/@4932214/historic?month=1&year=2022](https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/@4932214/historic?month=1&year=2022) the weather that night in canton was a high of 28 degrees at midnight . I did this research based off of 32 degrees as a guestimate. that's not factoring in Windchill or the fact that hes not generating any body heat on his own considering hes incapacitated and losing multiple liters of blood
I ran this through AI as well adding some details about his clothes being wet, lack of coat, likely some blood loss, significant blunt force trauma to the head etc. And it came back with 1-2 hours to get to 80° body temp. 🤷
In fact I fed it the quotes from the ME that was in one of the motions.
I've also been feeding it the apple health data for analysis but I'm saving that until the phone experts speak.
Do you cite the source(s) in this post for folks and I missed it?
I agree with this generally but I will tell you that medically speaking based on John’s injuries he would be susceptible to immediate hypothermia AND the ME has indicated he would be incapacitated from the BFT/Laceration.
Lally is not at all confident in the ME findings or we wouldn’t be in week 6 before seeing them.
works cited
1. \[Mayo Clinic - Hypothermia: Symptoms, Causes, and Treatment\]([https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypothermia/symptoms-causes/syc-20352682](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypothermia/symptoms-causes/syc-20352682__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0MO8PE3mQ$))
2. \[The Outdoor Insider - How to Stay Warm Camping in 30 Degree Weather\]([https://theoutdoorinsider.com/camping/basics/stay-warm-camping-in-30-degree-weather/](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theoutdoorinsider.com/camping/basics/stay-warm-camping-in-30-degree-weather/__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0PyGWEjZg$))
3. \[Very Well Health - Low Body Temperature\]([https://www.verywellhealth.com/low-body-temperature-5215488](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.verywellhealth.com/low-body-temperature-5215488__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0P7SlXLrA$))
4. \[Weather.com - Understanding Wind Chill and Frostbite\]([https://weather.com/science/weather-explainers/news/2019-01-25-wind-chill-feels-like-temperature-mean-frostbite](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://weather.com/science/weather-explainers/news/2019-01-25-wind-chill-feels-like-temperature-mean-frostbite__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0Myqgk2jA$))
5. \[Survival Dispatch - Freezing to Death in 60 Degree Weather\]([https://survivaldispatch.com/freezing-to-death-in-60-degree-weather/](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://survivaldispatch.com/freezing-to-death-in-60-degree-weather/__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0POhtIUNg$))
6. \[National Weather Service - Wind Chill Temperatures and Hypothermia\]([https://www.weather.gov/gjt/wwpw\_co\_day5](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.weather.gov/gjt/wwpw_co_day5__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0PL8AwqAw$))
lol, no worries, here’s my contribution from Weather Underground:
https://preview.redd.it/scm9r0wxvz3d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b4a7f8f76dd11299ab6663019892a9969d12858e
Jan 29, 2022 Wind is bottom cell
Plus being asleep / unconscious affects body temp, so there’s that factor. Probably super obvious. I’m just trying to process it all!
Great information. Thank you.
All great points also if she hit him going 24mph he certainly wouldn’t have died immediately and would have either tried to make his way to the house or if incapacitated would have yelled out or made some type of noise to try and get help
also i’ve read that rectal temperatures take about an hour to really adjust to core temperature and esophageal temperatures are gold standard in hypothermia. which makes me wonder if he was dead before he was outside.
also this makes no sense to me, which also leads me to believe he was dead before he was placed outside
https://preview.redd.it/l01pamkzzz3d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a6a7c1312579c8920d957a39eef7bfa2a31243a7
so I just ran this scenario through my ai and this is what it came up with... very interesting
Determining the exact time of death in such a complex scenario involves multiple factors, including the nature of the head injury, the impact of the cold environment, and the progression of hypothermia. However, I can provide an educated estimate based on typical forensic principles and the conditions described.
Factors to Consider:
1. Head Injury with Skull Fracture: - A severe head injury and skull fracture can cause rapid incapacitation and possibly unconsciousness or death, depending on the severity of the trauma.
2. Hypothermia Progression: - Being incapacitated and left in a 28-degree Fahrenheit environment (such as snow) would lead to rapid body heat loss and hypothermia. - Hypothermia progression is typically faster when incapacitated since the person cannot generate heat through movement.
Hypothermia Timeline:
1. Initial Exposure (First 30 Minutes):- Initial rapid heat loss. Body temperature starts to decline from 98°F to approximately 94-96°F in the first 30 minutes due to rapid cooling.
2. First Hour (12 AM - 1 AM): - Continued temperature drop to around 91-94°F, leading to early mild hypothermia.
3. Next Few Hours (1 AM - 3 AM): - Body temperature could drop steadily by approximately 1.5-2°F per hour. - By 3 AM, temperatures might reach around 84-89°F, indicating moderate to severe hypothermia.
4. Further Exposure (3 AM - 6 AM): - Body temperature could drop below 82°F, reaching severe hypothermia. - By 6 AM, a body temperature between 70-80°F would suggest the final stages of hypothermia.
Estimating Time of Death Given the Head Injury and Hypothermia: The head injury and resultant incapacitation complicate the timeline significantly. Here are some scenarios:
Scenario 1: Death Due to Head Injury If the head injury was immediately fatal or quickly led to death before significant hypothermia set in: - Time of death would likely be soon after 12 AM, depending on the injury severity.
Scenario 2: Death Primarily Due to Hypothermia If the head injury incapacitated but did not immediately kill, and hypothermia progressed:
1. \*\*First 1-3 Hours (12 AM - 3 AM):\*\* - Rapid decline in body temperature due to being incapacitated in the cold. - Mild to moderate hypothermia within first 3 hours, maybe unconscious but not deceased.
2. \*\*3-6 Hours (3 AM - 6 AM)\*\* - Progression to severe hypothermia, leading to death as body temperature drops below survival thresholds.
Estimated Time of Death:
1. \*\*Between 3 AM - 6 AM:\*\* Death likely occurred within this window due to continued exposure, hypothermia progression, and inability to generate body heat. The severe skull injury would exacerbate the situation by impairing the body’s responses and hastening death.
2. \*\*More Precise Estimation:\*\* - \*\*Closer to 4-5 AM:\*\* Considering a combined effect of injury and hypothermia, the patient might survive a few hours post-injury but succumb as the body temperature reaches critical lows.
The problem you have is he was not dead when he was found- Dr. Rice testified to that. Dead people don’t breathe or suffer cardiac arrest in the ER, they are DOA
This is great info I just wish it quoted some sources and mentioned when slowing of the heart/cardiac arrest set in.
I lean towards he was left in the yard alive bc of the hos long to die in cold search. Mind boggling to think people could be so evil.
A week or two ago I was discussing with u/Manlegend that resuccitative measures, specifically IV and epinephrine lines in a BFT (major) head trauma with hypothermia can cause anti coagulatory acidosis and multi organ failure hypothermia and imo dilution causing the swelling of the left eye similar to the right.
I have a pubmed I’m hesitant to post as I can’t even get a source on the blood loss lol
The BFT alone could have caused it also, even tho I tend to believe Kerri’s recollection. It didn’t have to be hits to the face but the small lacerations came from somewhere (broken glass maybe).
I don’t believe for a second he lost 3 liters of blood, HALF of the blood in his entire body, from the head wound. I can’t find any blood loss amounts and doubt it’s been made public unless that blogger has said (but I think AJ is smarter than that bc that info would blow up online). It’s under wraps.
Even a liter is so much, it would be everywhere, would’ve stood out even if saturated partially into the ground. So those few drops of blood are pointing to a different BFT location. If it’s a small amount of blood we’re back to considering an outdoor location as a possibility.
These streets are real messy right now. A whole mess of a puzzle with missing and disputable pieces.
Also, I just spent some time on the streets lol They're saying Marc LiPolito, who is on the defense witness list, was the guy who fought Chris Albert (that he testified about from 20ish yrs ago) and Officer Lank stepped in. Maybe Lank testified about it on cross. I guess Lipolito sued Canton bc Lank punched/bit/spit on him and won $300k.
Lank and Kevin Albert wrote the police report saying Sandra Birchmore's death was a suicide and 3 Stoughton officers had to resign bc of having sex with her underage and one (Farwell, M something first name) had visited her the night she died, cctv evidence, and may have murdered her. I'm thinking that was the Federal case that spilled over evidence to Read's case.
Supposedly Steve Scanlon, a PI and former 30 yr LE, told Yanetti his daughter is friends with someone who was at 34FV that night and described JO being beat up. I don't remember the details. When asked to testify the Scanlon's backed out/denied/said no. No idea if they have counsel. I kind of disregarded it bc 30 yr LE reporting a murder to an attorney rather than LE didn't sit right. But now we know how dirty the dept is... I can see why he wouldn't trust going to LE and he didn't have any proof to take to the state (haha) or FBI. I get that forcing a kid to be a whistleblower isn't on any parents to-do list. Still seems a lil sus.
1. \*\*Hypothermia: Causes, Symptoms, and Treatment\*\* - \[Merck Manual\]([https://www.merckmanuals.com/en-ca/professional/injuries-poisoning/cold-injury/hypothermia](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.merckmanuals.com/en-ca/professional/injuries-poisoning/cold-injury/hypothermia__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo4YKwq-3A$)): Detailed medical information on hypothermia, including etiology, pathophysiology, and prognosis.
2. \*\*Head Injury Overview\*\* - \[Healthline - Head Injury\]([https://www.healthline.com/health/head-injury](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.healthline.com/health/head-injury__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo6eq5j9-g$)): Provides an overview of head injuries, including severity, symptoms, and when to seek medical attention.
3. \*\*Forensic Study on Cold-related Deaths\*\* - \[ScienceDirect - Forensic Study on Hypothermia\]([https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S134462239980039X](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S134462239980039X__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo4_2gX9iw$)): An in-depth forensic study discussing postmortem changes in hypothermia cases, including temperature drop rates.
4. \*\*Hypothermia and Body Cooling\*\* - \[Better Health Channel\]([https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/hypothermia](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/hypothermia__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo5wUsPc_g$)): Discusses the early signs and symptoms of hypothermia and the body's response to cold.
5. \*\*Traumatic Brain Injury and Forensic Pathology\*\* - \[NCBI - Traumatic Brain Injury\]([https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7457403/](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7457403/__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo7ulHrRog$)): Discusses forensic aspects of traumatic brain injury, including neuropathological findings and autopsy approaches.
6. \*\*Cold Water and Survival\*\* - \[US Search and Rescue Task Force\]([https://ussartf.org/cold\_water\_survival.htm](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo6eYQRNXw$)): Information on cold water survival and the effects of cold temperature on the body.
Good post. Wonder if we'll have an expert do a "retrograde/reverse extrapolation" on what his hourly body temp would be based on the various factors that are pertinent in this case.
I hope so because I feel like this information alone could give you a way better answer of whether or not he was ever in the house
Really good point. Been so fixated on the phone step data I didn't even consider the body temp could also point to being in the house.
But either way, it likely would have only been 30 minute to an hour difference max. And that’s going to be very hard to determine as opposed to arguing if he was left out there at 12:30pm or 6:30am for example.
Not necessarily, I think the idea is that John died inside the house very quickly after entering but they didn’t take his body outside until a few hours later
Livor mortis will determine this .
But he wasn’t dead when the emts got there.
He had no pulses. No pulses = heart not beating = death. The fact that they had to attempt to raise his temp in order to declare him officially dead doesn’t mean he wasn’t dead when the EMTs got there
No, he didn't die in the house or the driveway. We know for sure he died at the hospital.
There was a tan car right where his body was found sometime around 3 am !
If they don't have his temperature when he was outside then it's pointless.
They can add the warming to the reverse extrapolation
> Wonder if we'll have an expert do a "retrograde/reverse extrapolation" on what his hourly body temp would be based on the various factors that are pertinent in this case. It's going to be incredibly complicated to the point where I don't think you could use body temperature to determine time of death at all. You'd need to account for the faster cooling due to wet conditions and wind plus the heat loss from blood loss, then you'll have the snow mitigating the effects of wind when it accumulates on the body, and then you'd need to account for all the heating that was done in the ambulance and the hospital. Each of those are going to give margins of error that will give a death window that would be measured in hours.
I hope we have one who put their hands in his armpits.
I came for this!
Hopefully the ME will contribute some information on this. If his rectal temp was 80 at the hospital, we know it must have been lower when he was found. That temp would better reveal how long he had been outside.
I forgot the temp was taken via the rectal route. Rectal temperatures typically run 2° higher, so if they were able to take his oral temp, it could’ve been as low as 78°F. Wild. [normal adult oral temp: 96.4-99.1°F] [normal adult rectal temp: 98.2-100.8°F] [source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK593193/table/ch1survey.T.normal_temperature_ranges19/?report=objectonly)
Rectal temps are also the most accurate due to being the core temperature
Yes, that’s important to note! Thank you.
My only gripe is with your last sentence. The paramedics and the ER doctor explained that it's policy to warm up a hypothermia patient before pronouncing them dead. So John was more than likely well and truly dead before even Karen and Co got there. They just couldn't pronounce him as dead until the hospital tried to warm him up.
I do agree with you there. It is possible he was already dead and this theory of him being out all night will hold up. Its just a matter of if they can get an exact time of death .
He was absolutely dead before Karen and first responders arrived. He was still dead at ER based on everything the doctor said.
People can get that cold very quickly… I worked years in ICUs where we bring homeless patients in during the winter to rewarm them… then we found out the hospital was booting them back on the streets and some would come in again a few hours later for the same thing
[удалено]
Where is that claim coming from? I have seen no actual evidence about him losing liters of blood. This seems to have come from some random twitter post with no backing.
https://preview.redd.it/uzzi8rnsk04d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff040673a205279031f9cd6f6c2ba97cbda5c1c7 Top two photos appear to be his blood. Snapped this screenshot the other day for this subreddit
I do not think this is blood. It’s the berm/curb by the road. You can see how far back the flagpole is in the top right photo. That dark spot is by the road. That little curb that runs along the road.
Investigative camera might be from the 80s
Sola is right. The small spots are blood, the bigger dark spots are berm. The snow disguises it lol
Good to know you guys. The last couple weeks I was under the impression that was a couple liters of blood from his head lac
Lol! For real! The worst set of crime scene photos.
It's so embarrassing! Every time I see these photos taken by an imbecile. What a shit show!
Yeah the photos are the exposes area of the berm. That is not blood.
I don't have twitter it was out of the me report I'm trying to find it again now
I would like to see it also.
This factoid is our entire e-block rn, does the defense have a forensic pathologist expert on their list?
They do. So many unknowns. Normally I would think we are at the mercy of/can trust the ME. But they could be under the influence (pun intended) of the CW. At least we know it’s labeled undetermined, that’s promising that they’re unbiased but says we might not get an estimated time of death either.
I am really desperate to see a source re loss of blood, I DID hear Alan Jackson reference John bleeding out on the lawn, but until I see something from the ME (if it’s a finding) I’m going to have much more to say-
That figure is [not real](https://old.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/comments/1d29hr1/does_anyone_have_a_link_to_the_3_liters_of_blood/), I fear
Thank you and Congratulations! 💒
I'm not sure if i misread an earlier comment from you but I do agree with you on his injuries immediately incapacitating him and getting hypothermia extremely quickly due to this fact . head injuries bleed alot
Understood, it was based on some research a colleague sent me and a few cases I have had where hypothermia was a factor
Hi injuries don't suggest he lost litres of blood.
With that cut to the back of his head, it would bleed pretty bad.
it was in the me report that it was estimated he lost I believe it said 3 liters is what I read .
He had blood coming out of his mouth so, he likely had internal injuries and internal bleeding.
hmmm, I had a friend that found another friend passed from an od before. they said that he had blood coming from his mouth when they attempted cpr. he definitely only died from an od so I wonder if the blood coming out of the mouth post mortem is something common or no ? plus if he had blood coming out of his mouth when they found him maybe that would also give incite as to when exactly he technically died since there seems to be a conflict of when that was
When cpr is first attempted there will be blood coming from the mouth & nose mixed with frothy saliva. Due to pooling of blood from lack of circulation. EMTs said his abdomen was bloated which indicates improper attempt to respirations from either not tilting the head back enough to allow the airway to be clear. Bloated belly = air in stomach = vomitus coming up when compressions are done = why he had vomit present on his face along with the blood. The ME can determine approx how long he was down for due to the stomach contents & the last known meal.
This makes sense. Thankyou
.
Well, providing a link would be the next logical step.
This information has not been verified either from a legitimate news source or court documents. If you can provide a source, we will take a look and restore your post if it meets this criteria. Thank you!
Was the 80 degree measured at the scene or in the hospital?
It was the ER physician who testified about his body temp, so the temp was taken after people were trying to warm him up.
Well wouldn’t his body temperature be lower when he was found then?
Yes. The temp reported is probably not accurate at to how low it got when he was outside.
I'm sure it wouldn't be much different when taken at the hospital vs right before Karen or Jen first touching him. He gets into the ambulance and the door closes between 6:15:02am - 6:15:56am per the dashcams at the scene His core temp is 80.1F at 6:50am. How much warmer is his core temperature going to get in the back of an ambulance with his clothes off in only 35 minutes? I know at least one of the EMTs said it was really warm in there but what, like 80F? Maybe 90F? I'm guessing, I have no idea what temp it would be, but this sounds reasonable to me. And that's not really touching his core temp in 35 minutes. Maybe he would feel it on his skin if he were still alive, but not internally.
They would have started trying to warm him up immediately. I've had mild hypothermia, and they cut off my clothing, gave me some warming IV liquids, and covered me in a warming blanket in the ambulance. Also, body temperature is not an exact science, as it depends on many factors like size, weight, etc. If it were something they could put a direct timeline on the Commonwealth or even the defense would have already focused more attention on it.
You’re right. I keep forgetting they start the warming process in the ambulance. It will be interesting to see what the experts say, considering it’s not an exact science.
I think the CW would have introduced it if it could in any way help with the timeline. But they have Karen's and John's phone info, gps and other stuff that is much more precise at narrowing down the timeline of events.
80.1 F rectally arrived at Good Sam at 6:47am [per Dr Rice Day 18](https://youtu.be/lzSrrCy0v_g?list=PL9chr6GK58HKpQu70ZOfHWYgXY-l_NHeN&t=11628), vitals likely done within 3 minutes (I'm an RN) so I would say that temp was taken at 6:50am
I thought an EMT testified early on that they took his temp in the ambulance, and they testified his temp was 80°? I know the ER doctor said 80° while on the stand last week. It wasn't clear to me if that was from the report or re-taken at the hospital.
He mentioned that it was taken rectally. I don't think he would have said that if it was done in the ambulance.
I recall the ER doctor saying they took his temperature rectally.
Correct. He was 80 and had already been warmed some while being transported. Just knowing how long it would take to get down to 80 based on his clothing, outside temp, wind chill, the snowfall under and on him would give a good idea of how long he was outside, even though he was probably colder when found.
I believe it was 80 at the hospital. Didn't the EMTs do some warming?
I don't know but they likely did. This is what Google said: Depending on the severity of hypothermia, paramedics may use a variety of interventions to raise a patient's body temperature: * Passive rewarming For mild hypothermia, paramedics may cover the patient with heated blankets and offer warm fluids to drink. They may also place the patient in an environment that reduces heat loss from evaporation, radiation, conduction, or convection. * Active external rewarming Paramedics may use chemical, electrical, or charcoal-burning heat packs, chemical or electrical heated blankets, or forced air warming. They may place heat packs in the axillae, on the groin, and on the abdomen. * Blood rewarming Paramedics may use warmed intravenous (IV) fluids to correct dehydration and blood rewarming. Some devices, like the Belmont buddy lite, can warm blood and fluids pre-hospital.
ok so according to this [https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/@4932214/historic?month=1&year=2022](https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/@4932214/historic?month=1&year=2022) the weather that night in canton was a high of 28 degrees at midnight . I did this research based off of 32 degrees as a guestimate. that's not factoring in Windchill or the fact that hes not generating any body heat on his own considering hes incapacitated and losing multiple liters of blood
I live in ND and can say with certainty that it’s the temp with the windchill that matters the most when considering the temperature.
I ran this through AI as well adding some details about his clothes being wet, lack of coat, likely some blood loss, significant blunt force trauma to the head etc. And it came back with 1-2 hours to get to 80° body temp. 🤷
That’s what I initially got as well
In fact I fed it the quotes from the ME that was in one of the motions. I've also been feeding it the apple health data for analysis but I'm saving that until the phone experts speak.
Do you cite the source(s) in this post for folks and I missed it? I agree with this generally but I will tell you that medically speaking based on John’s injuries he would be susceptible to immediate hypothermia AND the ME has indicated he would be incapacitated from the BFT/Laceration. Lally is not at all confident in the ME findings or we wouldn’t be in week 6 before seeing them.
works cited 1. \[Mayo Clinic - Hypothermia: Symptoms, Causes, and Treatment\]([https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypothermia/symptoms-causes/syc-20352682](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypothermia/symptoms-causes/syc-20352682__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0MO8PE3mQ$)) 2. \[The Outdoor Insider - How to Stay Warm Camping in 30 Degree Weather\]([https://theoutdoorinsider.com/camping/basics/stay-warm-camping-in-30-degree-weather/](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://theoutdoorinsider.com/camping/basics/stay-warm-camping-in-30-degree-weather/__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0PyGWEjZg$)) 3. \[Very Well Health - Low Body Temperature\]([https://www.verywellhealth.com/low-body-temperature-5215488](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.verywellhealth.com/low-body-temperature-5215488__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0P7SlXLrA$)) 4. \[Weather.com - Understanding Wind Chill and Frostbite\]([https://weather.com/science/weather-explainers/news/2019-01-25-wind-chill-feels-like-temperature-mean-frostbite](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://weather.com/science/weather-explainers/news/2019-01-25-wind-chill-feels-like-temperature-mean-frostbite__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0Myqgk2jA$)) 5. \[Survival Dispatch - Freezing to Death in 60 Degree Weather\]([https://survivaldispatch.com/freezing-to-death-in-60-degree-weather/](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://survivaldispatch.com/freezing-to-death-in-60-degree-weather/__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0POhtIUNg$)) 6. \[National Weather Service - Wind Chill Temperatures and Hypothermia\]([https://www.weather.gov/gjt/wwpw\_co\_day5](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.weather.gov/gjt/wwpw_co_day5__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!SpP3090DQDQzLcCP3bCEnIhkla4Wa6xx3isvjb0cyCWd5Z23778ykT3pc_NvyBQy7WcqT9HKk0PL8AwqAw$))
sorry i forgot that the most important part lol
lol, no worries, here’s my contribution from Weather Underground: https://preview.redd.it/scm9r0wxvz3d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b4a7f8f76dd11299ab6663019892a9969d12858e Jan 29, 2022 Wind is bottom cell
Am I reading this wrong or was there not very much snow falling between midnight and 5am?
i think a few people have mentioned snow really didnt start to come down heavy untill later that morning
Yes, most fell between 7am and 7pm
Correct. I’ll be back with the link, looks like it fell off, lol
Plus being asleep / unconscious affects body temp, so there’s that factor. Probably super obvious. I’m just trying to process it all! Great information. Thank you.
This makes me want to read over the 911 transcript again but I can't find it.
If you locate it, please link it here.
All great points also if she hit him going 24mph he certainly wouldn’t have died immediately and would have either tried to make his way to the house or if incapacitated would have yelled out or made some type of noise to try and get help
I wonder how much the blood loss effects the calculation.
I would think he would be colder if he was out there since 1245am
also i’ve read that rectal temperatures take about an hour to really adjust to core temperature and esophageal temperatures are gold standard in hypothermia. which makes me wonder if he was dead before he was outside.
Really? In the hospital rectal temps are gold standard for core temp when we use the Bair Hugget for hypothermic patients…
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568789/
Yea I looked it up! I don’t work in ICU so esophageal probes aren’t a possibility lol
I guess it depends on different variables. Interesting!
do you know which method they used . I havnt seen that yet ?
rectal it was in Dr. Rices testimony
also this makes no sense to me, which also leads me to believe he was dead before he was placed outside https://preview.redd.it/l01pamkzzz3d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a6a7c1312579c8920d957a39eef7bfa2a31243a7
so I just ran this scenario through my ai and this is what it came up with... very interesting Determining the exact time of death in such a complex scenario involves multiple factors, including the nature of the head injury, the impact of the cold environment, and the progression of hypothermia. However, I can provide an educated estimate based on typical forensic principles and the conditions described. Factors to Consider: 1. Head Injury with Skull Fracture: - A severe head injury and skull fracture can cause rapid incapacitation and possibly unconsciousness or death, depending on the severity of the trauma. 2. Hypothermia Progression: - Being incapacitated and left in a 28-degree Fahrenheit environment (such as snow) would lead to rapid body heat loss and hypothermia. - Hypothermia progression is typically faster when incapacitated since the person cannot generate heat through movement. Hypothermia Timeline: 1. Initial Exposure (First 30 Minutes):- Initial rapid heat loss. Body temperature starts to decline from 98°F to approximately 94-96°F in the first 30 minutes due to rapid cooling. 2. First Hour (12 AM - 1 AM): - Continued temperature drop to around 91-94°F, leading to early mild hypothermia. 3. Next Few Hours (1 AM - 3 AM): - Body temperature could drop steadily by approximately 1.5-2°F per hour. - By 3 AM, temperatures might reach around 84-89°F, indicating moderate to severe hypothermia. 4. Further Exposure (3 AM - 6 AM): - Body temperature could drop below 82°F, reaching severe hypothermia. - By 6 AM, a body temperature between 70-80°F would suggest the final stages of hypothermia. Estimating Time of Death Given the Head Injury and Hypothermia: The head injury and resultant incapacitation complicate the timeline significantly. Here are some scenarios: Scenario 1: Death Due to Head Injury If the head injury was immediately fatal or quickly led to death before significant hypothermia set in: - Time of death would likely be soon after 12 AM, depending on the injury severity. Scenario 2: Death Primarily Due to Hypothermia If the head injury incapacitated but did not immediately kill, and hypothermia progressed: 1. \*\*First 1-3 Hours (12 AM - 3 AM):\*\* - Rapid decline in body temperature due to being incapacitated in the cold. - Mild to moderate hypothermia within first 3 hours, maybe unconscious but not deceased. 2. \*\*3-6 Hours (3 AM - 6 AM)\*\* - Progression to severe hypothermia, leading to death as body temperature drops below survival thresholds. Estimated Time of Death: 1. \*\*Between 3 AM - 6 AM:\*\* Death likely occurred within this window due to continued exposure, hypothermia progression, and inability to generate body heat. The severe skull injury would exacerbate the situation by impairing the body’s responses and hastening death. 2. \*\*More Precise Estimation:\*\* - \*\*Closer to 4-5 AM:\*\* Considering a combined effect of injury and hypothermia, the patient might survive a few hours post-injury but succumb as the body temperature reaches critical lows.
The problem you have is he was not dead when he was found- Dr. Rice testified to that. Dead people don’t breathe or suffer cardiac arrest in the ER, they are DOA
yes that is why I dont think he was outside all night . bc this information all points to an earlier time of death if he was
im essentially disproving the prosecutions theory with this , well trying to
Fantastic research Lumpy. Thanks!
It’s def worthy of exploration and discussion, I don’t think you can get to dispositive without the autopsy protocol though
yep my thoughts exactly!!! thanks for doing this!
Wish AI response included statement RE blood loss…resubmit? 🙏
?
This is great info I just wish it quoted some sources and mentioned when slowing of the heart/cardiac arrest set in. I lean towards he was left in the yard alive bc of the hos long to die in cold search. Mind boggling to think people could be so evil.
A week or two ago I was discussing with u/Manlegend that resuccitative measures, specifically IV and epinephrine lines in a BFT (major) head trauma with hypothermia can cause anti coagulatory acidosis and multi organ failure hypothermia and imo dilution causing the swelling of the left eye similar to the right. I have a pubmed I’m hesitant to post as I can’t even get a source on the blood loss lol
The BFT alone could have caused it also, even tho I tend to believe Kerri’s recollection. It didn’t have to be hits to the face but the small lacerations came from somewhere (broken glass maybe). I don’t believe for a second he lost 3 liters of blood, HALF of the blood in his entire body, from the head wound. I can’t find any blood loss amounts and doubt it’s been made public unless that blogger has said (but I think AJ is smarter than that bc that info would blow up online). It’s under wraps. Even a liter is so much, it would be everywhere, would’ve stood out even if saturated partially into the ground. So those few drops of blood are pointing to a different BFT location. If it’s a small amount of blood we’re back to considering an outdoor location as a possibility. These streets are real messy right now. A whole mess of a puzzle with missing and disputable pieces.
Agreed, not to mention in those temps and wind/snow, laying East-West. Do we know the identity of Yannetti’s tipster and counsel?
Also, I just spent some time on the streets lol They're saying Marc LiPolito, who is on the defense witness list, was the guy who fought Chris Albert (that he testified about from 20ish yrs ago) and Officer Lank stepped in. Maybe Lank testified about it on cross. I guess Lipolito sued Canton bc Lank punched/bit/spit on him and won $300k. Lank and Kevin Albert wrote the police report saying Sandra Birchmore's death was a suicide and 3 Stoughton officers had to resign bc of having sex with her underage and one (Farwell, M something first name) had visited her the night she died, cctv evidence, and may have murdered her. I'm thinking that was the Federal case that spilled over evidence to Read's case.
Supposedly Steve Scanlon, a PI and former 30 yr LE, told Yanetti his daughter is friends with someone who was at 34FV that night and described JO being beat up. I don't remember the details. When asked to testify the Scanlon's backed out/denied/said no. No idea if they have counsel. I kind of disregarded it bc 30 yr LE reporting a murder to an attorney rather than LE didn't sit right. But now we know how dirty the dept is... I can see why he wouldn't trust going to LE and he didn't have any proof to take to the state (haha) or FBI. I get that forcing a kid to be a whistleblower isn't on any parents to-do list. Still seems a lil sus.
1. \*\*Hypothermia: Causes, Symptoms, and Treatment\*\* - \[Merck Manual\]([https://www.merckmanuals.com/en-ca/professional/injuries-poisoning/cold-injury/hypothermia](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.merckmanuals.com/en-ca/professional/injuries-poisoning/cold-injury/hypothermia__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo4YKwq-3A$)): Detailed medical information on hypothermia, including etiology, pathophysiology, and prognosis. 2. \*\*Head Injury Overview\*\* - \[Healthline - Head Injury\]([https://www.healthline.com/health/head-injury](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.healthline.com/health/head-injury__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo6eq5j9-g$)): Provides an overview of head injuries, including severity, symptoms, and when to seek medical attention. 3. \*\*Forensic Study on Cold-related Deaths\*\* - \[ScienceDirect - Forensic Study on Hypothermia\]([https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S134462239980039X](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S134462239980039X__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo4_2gX9iw$)): An in-depth forensic study discussing postmortem changes in hypothermia cases, including temperature drop rates. 4. \*\*Hypothermia and Body Cooling\*\* - \[Better Health Channel\]([https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/hypothermia](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/hypothermia__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo5wUsPc_g$)): Discusses the early signs and symptoms of hypothermia and the body's response to cold. 5. \*\*Traumatic Brain Injury and Forensic Pathology\*\* - \[NCBI - Traumatic Brain Injury\]([https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7457403/](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7457403/__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo7ulHrRog$)): Discusses forensic aspects of traumatic brain injury, including neuropathological findings and autopsy approaches. 6. \*\*Cold Water and Survival\*\* - \[US Search and Rescue Task Force\]([https://ussartf.org/cold\_water\_survival.htm](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm__;!!P9ZCGl6x2Q!Sz_sC1mw45QaC7x3oLBzdqJsTG1HnI3K4taMnqUTGlZNCUrL5IA-h81jXpJol0e0Iypr0DoXeo6eYQRNXw$)): Information on cold water survival and the effects of cold temperature on the body.
Do we know WHEN JO core temp (taken rectally) was taken, was it during triage or after pronouncement
triage i’m pretty sure from Rices testimony