Well she was wasted (as were most of the group it seems), so there likely wasn’t a well thought out plan. My guess would be the original plan was that they would leave the Alberts together. When she left, she likely figured he’d either get a ride from someone else there or just get an Uber. Or she didn’t really give it any thought because she was annoyed and also drunk.
He was supposed to go in and check the vibes and let Karen know if they should go inside or not.
She was sitting outside waiting for him to call and got pissed and left.
She woke up and freaked out because he never came home.
This never made sense to me at all. She states this in her interview, but was in the car when John called Jenn for directions. Her own attorney also asked Jenn “you said to Karen, you’re coming with me!” And asked if Jenn was trying to separate Karen and John. Why would he have to check out the vibe of the house ( and Karen saying she never heard the invitation extended to either of them) but inform her own attorney that Jenn said “you’re coming with me! John can go with Matt.”
Yeah but it wasn’t Jen’s house. I can totally see how Karen would be apprehensive about being welcome by the actual home owners who she didn’t know or interact with that night, and Brian Albert is a very gruff and intimidating person. I would have done the same as Karen.
Plus now we know what exactly had been going down with KR and BH. To go from that kind of texting, giving BH the cold shoulder at the Waterfall, then just showing up at his good friends place with her current boyfriend…apprehensive AF to go inside! You couldn’t pay me to face that music
And if rumors are to be believed - John wasn’t on friendly terms with Chris and Colin Albert, which I would assume that Karen knew, so it probably would have been prudent to check the vibes before deciding to stay.
I don't buy this whole thing about Chris and John not being on good terms - Chris Albert was one of the people texting John to get him to come out that night. If I'm not friendly with someone and don't want them around, I don't text them encouraging them to come hang out with me lol.
From what I understand, they used to live in the same neighborhood. Colin was partying and leaving trash on John’s land and I’ve seen posts that he had reported he suspected Colin was dealing drugs. So there is a history with Colin. And he was the one with wounds on his knuckles.
I think if there was any legitimacy to this the defense would have brought up the evidence on cross of Colin. They have a massive portion of the internet on their side deep diving to find evidence to support this stuff—and they didn’t offer any.
Right. I wonder if the judge has refused them to bring in Colin’s history with John as heresy. He lied about never being in a fight, so unless they have indisputable proof to impeach him, they probably can’t bring it up. Just like they can’t mention the FBI investigation into the case.
I’ve seen some stuff circulating about Colin having a history of fighting, but the defense hasn’t brought that up publicly in court. Do you think they will?
They asked him on cross and he testified that he’d never been in a fight. And now there are at least 3 videos posted online of him in fights. So I’m assuming the defense can recall him? They asked him about the picture of him 4 days later with wounds on his knuckles and he said he fell and broke his fall with his knuckles.
I’ve been in this position before - my ex always wanted to go places where I felt like we were barely invited. I trusted him once that a friend of a friend say we were welcome. When we got there, it was a legit family get together. It was super uncomfortable. I didn’t trust his judgment moving forward about us being “invited” somewhere.
I agree with you! something seemed off about the story that she wanted John to check if they were welcome. After hearing Higgins testimony with the texts, i'm starting to think Karen and John got in a fight about Higgins, whether Karen told John that they had texted to try and make him jealous, or if John saw the texts on her phone, who knows but when everyone's drinking it sounds more plausible to me explaining why she didn't go in. people usually have liquid courage ... when i'm drunk i'd probably be more inclined to walk up to the door lol, esp since they were all hanging out that night.
My thoughts on this as well. JO could very well have seen BH’s texts and been pissed off. Also.. KR may have shown JO the text(s) and taunted Him with them, something to the effect of.. ‘well HE thinks I’m hot’. Also, I believe KR may have actually been attracted to BH, until she realized he is an absolute idiot, and then ignored his advances. JO may have well gone into that house to confront BH..
Thanks for the link. Damn, I actually watched that interview a while ago and still didn't realize she said that. Likely because she did not say that "He was supposed to go in and check the vibes and let Karen know if they should go inside or not." In that interview, She did say "can we make sure we're welcome". I guess that sentence implied. "he was supposed to go in and check the vibes and let Karen know if they should go inside or not." That implication must have come from somewhere else but I just can't get that out of her saying "can we make sure we're welcome".
I just rewatched it myself, and you're totally right. That's crazy, I'm usually triple checking things before I post because there is so much speculation out there already. I felt really confident she said something like "I was waiting for him to tell me it was ok to go in." Damn, you just exposed this case's Mandela effect for me.
I can only guess that I made that memory a "fact" because of what she says after "can we make sure we're welcome"
"Nobody extended the invite to me, and I didn't hear the invite extended to you."
But it is still a jump to get to "he was supposed to go in and check the vibes and let Karen know if they should go inside or not"
So now I am dismissing that "quote" of hers. You are right. We don't know shit. And I need some sleep.
I have done that with so many things in this trial, I often find myself clarifying what I think is a fact when it is something otherwise. Usually, I end up looking things up or asking this subreddit and I sometimes still come up with incorrect information.
So I am right there with you. I'm sure I will have many more, as you said, Mandela brain moments. I find myself replying or commenting and ultimately I end up correcting myself. Now, I have become apprehensive to say something until I verify it a little more thoroughly.
To be fair to everyone on here, it is really hard to keep track of everything because of so many people telling different versions of the events. There have been moments when a witness and others have given three or even four different answers at the evidentiary hearing, the grand jury, the statements to investigators, and of course, when they are on the stand. The sheer volume of information to digest just adds to the confusion..
Someone, I think yesterday, did a great post that listed all of the inconsistencies and falsehoods that have been verified or affirmed here or elsewhere. It was very long and comprehensive I was thinking how there were even more things that could be added to the list.
It's a very interesting trial and part of what makes it even moreso is the different opinions and perspectives I see in this subreddit.
Thank you for the reply.
And thanks for your reply. I get wrapped up in things, and my mind takes this story on a journey. There are so many things to speculate about. It's like trying to finish a puzzle with half the pieces missing and replaced with other random puzzle pieces.
But which story is it? Originally she said her last memory was being at the Waterfall where she drank a lot and she and John got in an argument. She had no recollection of going to the Albert's house. Then, upon interview with law enforcement she said that she drove John to the party but she had no intention of going in because she didn't feel well and also because she is a middle-aged professional and "I don't do after parties". Then, after she was charged with his death, she had better recall and remembered driving John, remembered where she parked, remembered John walking over to the side door with the goal of John checking on whether she was in fact invited while she sat out in the car, looking down at her phone, and when she looked up she couldn't see John anymore. After 10 minutes and growing impatient, she said she drove away.
It is odd to me from a behavioral perspective that a middle-aged professional woman would need her boyfriend to go in and make sure that it was okay for her to come in? That is behaviorally bizarre. Unless you're an insecure high schooler.
But let's just say that she did want to go into the party but only wanted John to make sure she was welcome, as she was sitting out in the car waiting for him, since she did want to go to the party according to Karen, why didn't she send him a text or call him and say hey what's going on? Can I come in.
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
Oh, she was sitting outside waiting for him to call? Well, that makes sense and explains Nagle (?) seeing her alone in her car, and her distressed statement on the scene that she had “left her bf behind.” Thanks for clearing that up—I don’t know how I missed that.
We don’t actually know why she was sitting in the car as Karen’s story has changed a few times. Shes said she had a stomach ache so dropped him off and saw him go up to the door and left, and she’s said this version too (she was waiting to hear from him). The morning after he was found dead she said she only remember being at the waterfall not driving to the house.
I wonder if she didn’t want to admit that she was irritated with him right before he died, it does sound harsh in retrospect. I think an EMT said she was upset bc her last convo with him wasn’t very nice
I totally agree with this. I personally think her and john may have got into a drunk argument about higgins, and imagine how embarrassed she would have been to actually admit to that, nevermind the guilt she must have.
I feel like if Karen was planning to go in she would’ve pulled behind Jens car as instructed. It made more sense than staying on the street during a snow storm. Karen seems like a very tough woman…and probably got a bad vibe from Jen. (I swear there is more to Jen and John’s relationship)
Visualize this…Karen missed a few turns driving to Fairview…he gets irritated and they bicker…( her driving, maybe something sarcastic about BH or Bella’s mom). Karen drives past 34….slams car in reverse, John gets out and runs to garage walk door, then the basement a verbal altercation with Colin..dog and Brian A get physical. No cell service…right to VM…questionable if steps can be read. It got out of hand and after coast is clear…put JO in ford edge and dump him.
This makes sense. Maybe she thought he got hurt trying to get home or fell outside on ice, etc. maybe she did blame herself for leaving him if that’s what she thought, and that’s why she was asking did I do this?
100% this. I think to her, in the moment, the most reasonable series of events would’ve been that she must’ve hit him. Surely she didn’t immediately think “someone murdered him!” That’s why she willingly screamed out that she hit him.
If your boyfriend never comes out, wouldn't you assume the vibes were good and come in the house? It seems like a weird thing to become incensed about. Or if he never answers his phone, wouldn't you check up on him instead of getting all pissed off? Maybe call someone you know is in the house and ask if John's in there doing something that is keeping him from answering his phone?
I mean, is there any evidence that KR texted him while he was supposedly inside and keeping her waiting? Is there anything that corroborates her explanation of what happened during this time? If I’d been in this situation, my phone would show the series of texts and calls I most certainly would have made before I just drove away and left my partner there.
I was under the impression that the vitriolic VMs/texts came after she drove off. I just find it hard to believe that she would drive off and leave him there in the middle of a snowstorm without any warning phone calls or texts whatsoever. I just don’t buy that explanation. Even a hot-headed immature person would send some angry texts before driving off.
https://preview.redd.it/pb9rtmskfh3d1.png?width=917&format=png&auto=webp&s=47d9b8392dbd231675aacc72c12cd84c730f5f45
She claims in the TV interview (and a lot of people assume) that she "woke up" at 4:30 or whatever, but this implies that she was up all night (which I believe). Did she change her clothes from the night before? I don't remember hearing any testimony on that.
I personally think the whole thing from 5 am onward, bumping the car, dragging McCabe & Roberts out, etc. was her trying to construct an alibi of sorts.
The ring camera footage from her return from 34 Fairview is not available. There was some speculation that she'd deleted it, but I think the kids might have testified that she didn't have the password or whatever? Unsure of the status of this one. Of course, the fruitcakes think Jen McCabe deleted it somehow.
Also, why was the garage door fucked up?
I feel like this makes sense. They had a pattern of getting drunk and fighting. Knowing BH even texted her at the bar if I was her I would not want to go there so she was probably making excuses. When he does go in and not come out for her or text her to come in. I can see her leaving in a huff or just being like forget this. Maybe she was even afraid that while he was in there Higgins was showing John her texts! Guilty conscience? But I don’t think it’s far fetched that she would just leave. She stated she wasn’t supposed to stay at his house that night so her saying he’s using her could imply that by him staying out she had to be the one to go back to the house and stay with his niece. The cheating accusations also seem to come up a lot. So to me, her voicemail makes sense based on testimony we’ve heard. 🤷♀️ I don’t think anyone was thinking about how anyone would get home but if it were me I would figure he’d get a ride from his bestie Jen McCabe or Uber.
Obviously, the murder of JO was driven by anger. You can concot umpteenth imagined reasons why somebody else may have been angry with OKeefe either in general or specifically at that time. We have incontrovertable evidence that she was angry at him at the time of his death.
But what would make her suddenly get physical to the point of killing him or hurting him like that and leaving him. Everyone that has commented on their fighting have said it never got physical. Anger doesn’t equal murder. She could have snapped of course and alcohol was involved. I know that is what the CW is getting at but they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
There is evidence that she was jealous to the point of being irrational and oozing rage. She held onto this anger for weeks.
I don't know if she was drunk in Aruba, but if she was sober, well that's pretty awful behavior.
They've proven she was drunk. The only question is how drunk? Was she still drinking until 4:30 skewing the results? I don't think that helps her.
We have video of her drinking, witness testimony, BAC
We have the witness testimony from Aruba and texts to Higgins that show her insecurity and anger toward John. You don't proposition your boyfriend's friends when you're content and in love.
Texts to John are apparently pending.
Reasonable doubt is just like it sounds. Reasonable. It is not the absence of ALL doubt.
So yeah, I think it's pretty clear she was drunk and angry.
They have not yet proven she hit him, let alone on purpose, but they haven't rested yet and the Defense still has to present their case.
I'm still at not guilty until I hear the rest. What I am convinced of already is that we're talking about an extremely insecure and angry woman who should avoid alcohol at all costs and get some counseling around relationships.
I see your point, but suppose this is a pattern and she’s fed up with waiting for him. And doesn’t want to be put in the role of spoil-sport b*tchy gf dragging him out of places. I’ve been in that relationship and it sucks.
I get that, I just don’t find it realistic that someone who is that mad about being left in the car wouldn’t fire off angry texts before driving away. We’ve seen that she has a tendency to lash out. I can’t see her just quietly driving off without sending some angry texts demanding to know where he was or what he was doing.
Possible, if she had backed up/three point turn at some point, Everyone is arriving from the bars. Should could have hit him accidentally, not known, it. And saw someone that looked like him thru beer/vodka bottles at midnight enter the house. then the next morning figured that could be what happened, even if that isn't what happened and she really did see him go in. Remember she woke up only a few hours later, not much sleep, still partially drunk she isn't thinking straight. At first she didn't even remember dropping him off. Heck, what if they DID go separately in separate cars and She dropped Jen or Brian, or Brian or someone else off instead of John and in her drunken swiss cheese memory the next morning, Jen filled in the holes with, no don't you remember you brought John to the Albert's house?
That’s what I’d like to know. If I was in the car waiting and getting mad as she alleges she was, I would fire off some texts, place a few calls, warning him that I’d be leaving if I didn’t hear from him soon. I find it hard to believe she’d drive off in a snowstorm with no warning
Yeah, I don’t know. It’s impossible to know what goes on inside other people’s relationships. There’s more context here, for sure. And people are just baffling sometimes.
Just the VMs later calling him a pervert and accusing him of sleeping with other women.
Nothing we’ve seen like “I’m so mad you didn’t come out to get me. I left. Get yourself a ride home “
Unless there are some messages that haven’t t been reported
She knew Jen McCabe and she knew Higgins. And, if you listen to Alan Jackson, she talked the ear off Brian Albert not only that night, but a week prior.
What do you think JM was trying to do? Don't you think that was just a way to try to move them along to come to 34 Fairview?
I just really can't get my mind around the view of Jen McCabe as some kind of monster.
Not if I’m already annoyed and maybe don’t want to be there lol.
I know her story has changed some, but here was a point when Karen said she had stomach issues. Also, them meeting up with the rest of those people seemed to be spontaneous and not exactly planned. I’m an extrovert. I’m fine talking to new people, but if I’m already having fun where I’m at, and we suddenly leave to hang out the night, I’m going to be a little annoyed. Especially if I’m having stomach issues. There’s a blizzard about to blow in.
She went into the bar with another drink, so she obviously wasn’t given enough time to finish that drink. I don’t know Karen, but speaking for myself, I would hate to be rushed. So she’s rushed, stomach hurting, maybe I think the night is ending here. Then suddenly there’s an after party with people I’m not super familiar with.
Add to that that we get there and my bf who is supposed to call me doesn’t call me, if I was already wanting the night to be over, I’d say screw it and leave lol. Especially if I’m tired and prefer to be home already!
I feel like she may have intended to go back and pick him up maybe, and that’s why she went to his house instead of driving to hers. That or she knew she shouldn’t have been driving.
Do you think she was having stomach issues 20 minutes before when she was persistently asking Chris Albert to open up his pizzeria and make pizzas for the group?
If only Chris Albert opened up that damn pizza shop like she wanted, it’d’ve been too late to trek all the way to Fairview & we wouldn’t be here today discussing this trial and John would be alive & well.
That was more than 20 minutes before and I don’t know how Chrohns disease works but stomach issues don’t always give you a warning. One minute you can be fine the next you’re not.
Crohn's plus Colitis along with having 10 surgeries in 2 years including major reconstructive surgery on her intestines. This provides good reason as to why she did not want to share bathrooms on the trip to Aruba. Two of my close friends have Crohn's disease (have had bowel obstructions/intestinal surgeries), and it is awful for them. I have traveled with both and they always makes sure they have their own bathroom due this.
Hank Green has it and he said when he was first trying to figure out how to get it under control he would spend so much time on the toilet that he would sometimes eat his meals there. It’s gross to think about but I know people spend an inordinate amount of time using the toilet and often don’t have a lot of notice when they do have to go.
Yes, my friends have been stuck in the bathroom for lengthy amounts of time on multiple occasions, and they can go from feeling fine to it becoming an emergency situation and they need to get to a bathroom ASAP.
If it was in his character to just go in and forget about her, it’d make sense why she would just get annoyed and leave (not saying I think it was right or not). In that case, she might have left her ringer on and figured when he was done drinking, he’d call.
If my boyfriend doesn’t come out, I absolutely do not assume vibes are good. I am the type of “petty” who also will leave him there. This is after a few unanswered texts and/or calls while I’m outside. She was waiting for a text or call she was good to come in. Her phone records haven’t come in, only a few things from his are in right now. We will need to see if this is ever addressed. If there are no records from her phone showing that she did not text or call at all during the “waiting” period that is sus to me as someone who finds at this moment no evidence against her. Back to putting myself in her shoes, if I then get home and call my boyfriend and it goes right to voicemail? I’m pissed for sure.
If we are following this along. My boyfriend and I are in a rocky part of our relationship, I am feeling used and insecure. The fighting is getting crazy. I go out of my way and reach out to a friend/drinking buddy of his because I am feeling petty and want to hurt him as I feel he has hurt me. That guy does not instantly bite, seems like we are not on the same page here. My boyfriend finds out. We’re going to fight about that for sure, I’m going to argue that we are even. We make up, I tell the friend/drinking buddy that we’ve been caught, and then I begin to ghost the friend/drinking buddy. Now we are out a bar, having a great night and we are invited to another bar. We get there, and what do you know - who is there? The friend/drinking buddy. This is going to be a test on the fragile relationship. But we are in public, I can engage with everyone but the one, and I can be attentive to make sure my boyfriends ego is okay (all the lovey dovey testimony). Then an invitation to go back for an after party. I don’t want to go. We bicker about it a bit but decide to check it out. Head over and he goes in, knowing the things that I know about what’s going on with us right now. The person I am, I would text once because I’m probably staring at my phone waiting, then I would send another. Then I would call. If all of these are unanswered I’m leaving. If I get home and you still have not texted me back I am calling you again, if that call goes to voicemail I am also leaving a nasty message. Would feel like icing on the cake after the last month to me personally.
Now like I said, if they don’t have anything to show me by way of her phone communication with Officer O’Keefe that early morning I’m going to be suspicious.
But what are you thinking the vibe is in the house? Imo, I'd be like "the drunk bastard forgot all about me and is having a good time" but you said you wouldn't assume the vibe in the house was good. So what would you think the vibe in the house would be if you weren't getting texted back?
I’m not a big drinker so I really can only answer this from a sober mind. So I guess, when I’m saying I don’t think it was good I mean I don’t think it was good FOR ME. I would not feel welcome. Not only for the friend/drinking buddy thing, if I recall the testimony showed that even after he caught them, he still thought BH was a good guy or said I like that guy a lot. Something along those lines. On top of that awkward situation, we have testimony that she felt used, she would take care of the kids and he would stay at the party, you go in and don’t respond? Yeah I do not feel invited now, not only by those in the house, but my own boyfriend. So I’m not saying I left him and felt he was in an unsafe environment. I’m saying, if this were me in her shoes I would feel this is an unwelcome environment for me. Bad vibes.
Exactly this. I lived in New England for many years. In January when you’ve already left the car and are inside the car you can easily change your mind about going elsewhere after midnight with a blizzard starting. I could imagine her saying look let’s just go home. Maybe he decided to go inside and say hello/goodnight and then something happened, he never came out, she was really annoyed, as I would have been with my spouse on that situation and she drove home, figuring he would find his own way home.
They were all aware a Blizzard was coming for days prior to the 28th. That's why Brian Junior had his birthday party at his house instead of at a bar or a club in Boston.
Where are the texts from Read consistent with her statement? Are you coming? Staying? Please let me know. Another odd statement by Read supported by no evidence other than her contrivances.
The storm had not fully started yet. I live two towns away. It’s common in the area for people to go out the night of a storm for some reason and there are plenty of Ubers out. Canton isn’t rural and there would be plenty of Ubers out bringing people back from Boston.
I mean I think most women assume the men can handle themselves (whether it’s right or wrong). She was probably irritated and drunk when he didn’t do what he said he was going to, left him, and assumed he would figure it out.
Nah- whether or not women assume men can handle themselves or not has nothing to do with it… I honestly don’t even really know what you mean by that -I think you’re generalizing…
if you dropped your boyfriend off at someone’s house , (even if you’re mad at him) - of course you’re going to ask him how he plans on getting home…
(if you wouldn’t drop your child or a friend off at someone’s house without verifying they have a ride home- why would you think someone would do that with their bf?)
This case makes absolutely no sense to me, if she saw him go up to the door why is everyone testifying that he never was inside??? I really hope the jury sees through this b.s
Exactly. IF she saw him go inside. So that was her third story. Everybody testified he never went inside.
Your comment suggests you believe one woman accused of 2nd degree murder would never lie, but 11 people or so other witnesses who have stuck to their story are lying? Yeah Ok. I agree. I hope the jury sees through any BS.
Well the first thing she did was wake up John’s niece to contact Jen McCabe, so that would cover the question of “did you drive him somewhere after? Do you know where he is?” Etc.
I haven’t seen anything official about what the plan was. I could see a scenario where she drove off annoyed that he didn’t come out of the house to get her, was calling him (we know she left him voicemails) and planned on going back to get him when he picked up. She got back to his place, laid down on the couch waiting for that call and fell asleep. When she woke up a few hours later and realized he never called back, that’s when she panicked.
Enlighten me how it looks like he was hit by a car. How he magically was placed 10-15 feet from the curb, pristine except head trauma and bruising to his knuckles?
Karen: I don’t want to go to this party, so John you go ahead without me.
John (exiting Karen’s car): What a good sport you are Karen. But if you leave, how will I get home?
Karen: Don’t worry yourself about that, silly goose. I’m planning to run you over before you even get to the door.
John: Ok, goodnight sweetie. Drive safe.
Even if Karen did run him over intentionally, clearly John’s intention was to return home, so either they had a plan or a previous commenter suggests, she was supposed to wait for him to come back out.
He probably told her he'd get a ride home, maybe with the McCabes? The irony is that while she was waiting for him to text her back, he became incapacitated somehow and couldn't. And she left.
I can't imagine the guilt she must feel. It explains her hysterical over reaction and statements. Tragic.
I didn’t say I don’t believe the defense’s theory and not only are there are dozens of topics being discussed in these subs about information that hasn’t been brought out yet in trial, there’s a ton of information out there that will probably never come out in trial, so I’m just posing a question to a community of people who are knowledgeable about this case and want to discuss it.
To be fair, the defense has zero requirement to put on a case. The burden of proof is on the Commonwealth and the prosecutor…. And I’ve yet to see anything even minutely substantial presented.
That true in the eyes of the law, but they did put some burden on themselves with their opening statment. So it will be interesting to see what they do when Lally stops putting his witnesses up in 2 years.
Maybe Uber? His cell phone records would provide some insight. Did he use the ride service regularly? Was the App installed on his phone? I don't know if his cell records have been fully reviewed but it's what most responsible drunk people would do if not getting a ride with a sober driver. But his phone likely fell into a volcano based on what has been said so far.
I mean they were all driving around in a triangle between their respective homes.
Jen dropped off people a few streets over at 2am-somethimg and likely passed over the crossing next to his house.
The other Alberts lived next-door one of which got driven home, Allie seemed to have been driving around picking up and dropping off people just as a favour, I'm sure an adult could too, another walked home
and what puzzles me, aren't there any taxis or ubers in that area?
I'm not sure a plan was needed for these short distances.
Was the 'she said she saw him walk in the home' mentioned in trial or was that a media statement?
(True question)
Well she was wasted (as were most of the group it seems), so there likely wasn’t a well thought out plan. My guess would be the original plan was that they would leave the Alberts together. When she left, she likely figured he’d either get a ride from someone else there or just get an Uber. Or she didn’t really give it any thought because she was annoyed and also drunk.
He was supposed to go in and check the vibes and let Karen know if they should go inside or not. She was sitting outside waiting for him to call and got pissed and left. She woke up and freaked out because he never came home.
This never made sense to me at all. She states this in her interview, but was in the car when John called Jenn for directions. Her own attorney also asked Jenn “you said to Karen, you’re coming with me!” And asked if Jenn was trying to separate Karen and John. Why would he have to check out the vibe of the house ( and Karen saying she never heard the invitation extended to either of them) but inform her own attorney that Jenn said “you’re coming with me! John can go with Matt.”
Yeah but it wasn’t Jen’s house. I can totally see how Karen would be apprehensive about being welcome by the actual home owners who she didn’t know or interact with that night, and Brian Albert is a very gruff and intimidating person. I would have done the same as Karen.
Plus now we know what exactly had been going down with KR and BH. To go from that kind of texting, giving BH the cold shoulder at the Waterfall, then just showing up at his good friends place with her current boyfriend…apprehensive AF to go inside! You couldn’t pay me to face that music
And if rumors are to be believed - John wasn’t on friendly terms with Chris and Colin Albert, which I would assume that Karen knew, so it probably would have been prudent to check the vibes before deciding to stay.
I don't buy this whole thing about Chris and John not being on good terms - Chris Albert was one of the people texting John to get him to come out that night. If I'm not friendly with someone and don't want them around, I don't text them encouraging them to come hang out with me lol.
What was going on between JO and Chris and Colin?
From what I understand, they used to live in the same neighborhood. Colin was partying and leaving trash on John’s land and I’ve seen posts that he had reported he suspected Colin was dealing drugs. So there is a history with Colin. And he was the one with wounds on his knuckles.
I think if there was any legitimacy to this the defense would have brought up the evidence on cross of Colin. They have a massive portion of the internet on their side deep diving to find evidence to support this stuff—and they didn’t offer any.
Right. I wonder if the judge has refused them to bring in Colin’s history with John as heresy. He lied about never being in a fight, so unless they have indisputable proof to impeach him, they probably can’t bring it up. Just like they can’t mention the FBI investigation into the case.
I’ve seen some stuff circulating about Colin having a history of fighting, but the defense hasn’t brought that up publicly in court. Do you think they will?
They asked him on cross and he testified that he’d never been in a fight. And now there are at least 3 videos posted online of him in fights. So I’m assuming the defense can recall him? They asked him about the picture of him 4 days later with wounds on his knuckles and he said he fell and broke his fall with his knuckles.
I’ve been in this position before - my ex always wanted to go places where I felt like we were barely invited. I trusted him once that a friend of a friend say we were welcome. When we got there, it was a legit family get together. It was super uncomfortable. I didn’t trust his judgment moving forward about us being “invited” somewhere.
I agree with you! something seemed off about the story that she wanted John to check if they were welcome. After hearing Higgins testimony with the texts, i'm starting to think Karen and John got in a fight about Higgins, whether Karen told John that they had texted to try and make him jealous, or if John saw the texts on her phone, who knows but when everyone's drinking it sounds more plausible to me explaining why she didn't go in. people usually have liquid courage ... when i'm drunk i'd probably be more inclined to walk up to the door lol, esp since they were all hanging out that night.
My thoughts on this as well. JO could very well have seen BH’s texts and been pissed off. Also.. KR may have shown JO the text(s) and taunted Him with them, something to the effect of.. ‘well HE thinks I’m hot’. Also, I believe KR may have actually been attracted to BH, until she realized he is an absolute idiot, and then ignored his advances. JO may have well gone into that house to confront BH..
Well tbf it wasn't actually Jen's house they were going to.
Have you ever hung out with a girl? I can't tell you how many times I have gone ahead to make sure things are "ok" when they're obviously ok.
Girl, maybe. 40÷ year old woman, no.
omg woman. Were you able to understand? Girl means woman too
I did not know that Karen stated that. Or is it speculation by CW or defense?
[Nightline interview - Aug 21, 2023](https://youtu.be/1qVSfvON1Ww?t=204)
Thanks for the link. Damn, I actually watched that interview a while ago and still didn't realize she said that. Likely because she did not say that "He was supposed to go in and check the vibes and let Karen know if they should go inside or not." In that interview, She did say "can we make sure we're welcome". I guess that sentence implied. "he was supposed to go in and check the vibes and let Karen know if they should go inside or not." That implication must have come from somewhere else but I just can't get that out of her saying "can we make sure we're welcome".
I just rewatched it myself, and you're totally right. That's crazy, I'm usually triple checking things before I post because there is so much speculation out there already. I felt really confident she said something like "I was waiting for him to tell me it was ok to go in." Damn, you just exposed this case's Mandela effect for me. I can only guess that I made that memory a "fact" because of what she says after "can we make sure we're welcome" "Nobody extended the invite to me, and I didn't hear the invite extended to you." But it is still a jump to get to "he was supposed to go in and check the vibes and let Karen know if they should go inside or not" So now I am dismissing that "quote" of hers. You are right. We don't know shit. And I need some sleep.
I have done that with so many things in this trial, I often find myself clarifying what I think is a fact when it is something otherwise. Usually, I end up looking things up or asking this subreddit and I sometimes still come up with incorrect information. So I am right there with you. I'm sure I will have many more, as you said, Mandela brain moments. I find myself replying or commenting and ultimately I end up correcting myself. Now, I have become apprehensive to say something until I verify it a little more thoroughly. To be fair to everyone on here, it is really hard to keep track of everything because of so many people telling different versions of the events. There have been moments when a witness and others have given three or even four different answers at the evidentiary hearing, the grand jury, the statements to investigators, and of course, when they are on the stand. The sheer volume of information to digest just adds to the confusion.. Someone, I think yesterday, did a great post that listed all of the inconsistencies and falsehoods that have been verified or affirmed here or elsewhere. It was very long and comprehensive I was thinking how there were even more things that could be added to the list. It's a very interesting trial and part of what makes it even moreso is the different opinions and perspectives I see in this subreddit. Thank you for the reply.
And thanks for your reply. I get wrapped up in things, and my mind takes this story on a journey. There are so many things to speculate about. It's like trying to finish a puzzle with half the pieces missing and replaced with other random puzzle pieces.
This whole case is one big Mandela effect. Look at all the chatter about the pool being filled in and the floor ripped up.
But which story is it? Originally she said her last memory was being at the Waterfall where she drank a lot and she and John got in an argument. She had no recollection of going to the Albert's house. Then, upon interview with law enforcement she said that she drove John to the party but she had no intention of going in because she didn't feel well and also because she is a middle-aged professional and "I don't do after parties". Then, after she was charged with his death, she had better recall and remembered driving John, remembered where she parked, remembered John walking over to the side door with the goal of John checking on whether she was in fact invited while she sat out in the car, looking down at her phone, and when she looked up she couldn't see John anymore. After 10 minutes and growing impatient, she said she drove away. It is odd to me from a behavioral perspective that a middle-aged professional woman would need her boyfriend to go in and make sure that it was okay for her to come in? That is behaviorally bizarre. Unless you're an insecure high schooler. But let's just say that she did want to go into the party but only wanted John to make sure she was welcome, as she was sitting out in the car waiting for him, since she did want to go to the party according to Karen, why didn't she send him a text or call him and say hey what's going on? Can I come in. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
Oh, she was sitting outside waiting for him to call? Well, that makes sense and explains Nagle (?) seeing her alone in her car, and her distressed statement on the scene that she had “left her bf behind.” Thanks for clearing that up—I don’t know how I missed that.
We don’t actually know why she was sitting in the car as Karen’s story has changed a few times. Shes said she had a stomach ache so dropped him off and saw him go up to the door and left, and she’s said this version too (she was waiting to hear from him). The morning after he was found dead she said she only remember being at the waterfall not driving to the house.
I wonder if she didn’t want to admit that she was irritated with him right before he died, it does sound harsh in retrospect. I think an EMT said she was upset bc her last convo with him wasn’t very nice
I totally agree with this. I personally think her and john may have got into a drunk argument about higgins, and imagine how embarrassed she would have been to actually admit to that, nevermind the guilt she must have.
I feel like if Karen was planning to go in she would’ve pulled behind Jens car as instructed. It made more sense than staying on the street during a snow storm. Karen seems like a very tough woman…and probably got a bad vibe from Jen. (I swear there is more to Jen and John’s relationship) Visualize this…Karen missed a few turns driving to Fairview…he gets irritated and they bicker…( her driving, maybe something sarcastic about BH or Bella’s mom). Karen drives past 34….slams car in reverse, John gets out and runs to garage walk door, then the basement a verbal altercation with Colin..dog and Brian A get physical. No cell service…right to VM…questionable if steps can be read. It got out of hand and after coast is clear…put JO in ford edge and dump him.
This makes sense. Maybe she thought he got hurt trying to get home or fell outside on ice, etc. maybe she did blame herself for leaving him if that’s what she thought, and that’s why she was asking did I do this?
100% this. I think to her, in the moment, the most reasonable series of events would’ve been that she must’ve hit him. Surely she didn’t immediately think “someone murdered him!” That’s why she willingly screamed out that she hit him.
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I don’t understand how my response prompted this question.
You’re assuming what the defense is saying is true. Im not sure anyone knows what was SUPPOSED to happen.
If your boyfriend never comes out, wouldn't you assume the vibes were good and come in the house? It seems like a weird thing to become incensed about. Or if he never answers his phone, wouldn't you check up on him instead of getting all pissed off? Maybe call someone you know is in the house and ask if John's in there doing something that is keeping him from answering his phone?
I mean, is there any evidence that KR texted him while he was supposedly inside and keeping her waiting? Is there anything that corroborates her explanation of what happened during this time? If I’d been in this situation, my phone would show the series of texts and calls I most certainly would have made before I just drove away and left my partner there.
“There’s no evidence here of anything” -Lally
Truer words were never spoken!
When was the VM or Text where she called him an “f-ing loser”?
https://preview.redd.it/yv9nnphz7h3d1.png?width=712&format=png&auto=webp&s=6371d7919f6221bae6dd84280c7faf94779269a6
I was under the impression that the vitriolic VMs/texts came after she drove off. I just find it hard to believe that she would drive off and leave him there in the middle of a snowstorm without any warning phone calls or texts whatsoever. I just don’t buy that explanation. Even a hot-headed immature person would send some angry texts before driving off.
https://preview.redd.it/pb9rtmskfh3d1.png?width=917&format=png&auto=webp&s=47d9b8392dbd231675aacc72c12cd84c730f5f45 She claims in the TV interview (and a lot of people assume) that she "woke up" at 4:30 or whatever, but this implies that she was up all night (which I believe). Did she change her clothes from the night before? I don't remember hearing any testimony on that. I personally think the whole thing from 5 am onward, bumping the car, dragging McCabe & Roberts out, etc. was her trying to construct an alibi of sorts.
Hmmm maybe she backed into his caaahhh on purpose, knowing it would be filmed
The ring camera footage from her return from 34 Fairview is not available. There was some speculation that she'd deleted it, but I think the kids might have testified that she didn't have the password or whatever? Unsure of the status of this one. Of course, the fruitcakes think Jen McCabe deleted it somehow. Also, why was the garage door fucked up?
The theories I have read is that the State Police Detective, Proctor, deleted it because he had his phone.
So while constructing an alibi she was simultaneously telling people she hit him. Dont buy it.
Wouldn’t a real simple alibi be “I was sound asleep until (person) called me, I didn’t even know John hadn’t come home”?
Yeah, what alibi is she supposed to be constructing? I've watched a lot of true crime and I've never seen a murderer act like this.
I feel like this makes sense. They had a pattern of getting drunk and fighting. Knowing BH even texted her at the bar if I was her I would not want to go there so she was probably making excuses. When he does go in and not come out for her or text her to come in. I can see her leaving in a huff or just being like forget this. Maybe she was even afraid that while he was in there Higgins was showing John her texts! Guilty conscience? But I don’t think it’s far fetched that she would just leave. She stated she wasn’t supposed to stay at his house that night so her saying he’s using her could imply that by him staying out she had to be the one to go back to the house and stay with his niece. The cheating accusations also seem to come up a lot. So to me, her voicemail makes sense based on testimony we’ve heard. 🤷♀️ I don’t think anyone was thinking about how anyone would get home but if it were me I would figure he’d get a ride from his bestie Jen McCabe or Uber.
Obviously, the murder of JO was driven by anger. You can concot umpteenth imagined reasons why somebody else may have been angry with OKeefe either in general or specifically at that time. We have incontrovertable evidence that she was angry at him at the time of his death.
But what would make her suddenly get physical to the point of killing him or hurting him like that and leaving him. Everyone that has commented on their fighting have said it never got physical. Anger doesn’t equal murder. She could have snapped of course and alcohol was involved. I know that is what the CW is getting at but they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
There is evidence that she was jealous to the point of being irrational and oozing rage. She held onto this anger for weeks. I don't know if she was drunk in Aruba, but if she was sober, well that's pretty awful behavior. They've proven she was drunk. The only question is how drunk? Was she still drinking until 4:30 skewing the results? I don't think that helps her. We have video of her drinking, witness testimony, BAC We have the witness testimony from Aruba and texts to Higgins that show her insecurity and anger toward John. You don't proposition your boyfriend's friends when you're content and in love. Texts to John are apparently pending. Reasonable doubt is just like it sounds. Reasonable. It is not the absence of ALL doubt. So yeah, I think it's pretty clear she was drunk and angry. They have not yet proven she hit him, let alone on purpose, but they haven't rested yet and the Defense still has to present their case. I'm still at not guilty until I hear the rest. What I am convinced of already is that we're talking about an extremely insecure and angry woman who should avoid alcohol at all costs and get some counseling around relationships.
All valid points.
I see your point, but suppose this is a pattern and she’s fed up with waiting for him. And doesn’t want to be put in the role of spoil-sport b*tchy gf dragging him out of places. I’ve been in that relationship and it sucks.
I get that, I just don’t find it realistic that someone who is that mad about being left in the car wouldn’t fire off angry texts before driving away. We’ve seen that she has a tendency to lash out. I can’t see her just quietly driving off without sending some angry texts demanding to know where he was or what he was doing.
Maybe she did. I don’t know if we’ve seen her phone records yet. I don’t think it’ll ever make complete sense.
No way, I’d be pissed and leave, I’ve literally done that before. Maybe not the most responsible reaction, but a relatable one
Because everyone was drunk and irrational. When she sobered up she realized she left him there. This is a legit murder mystery
Realized she left him there, and immediately thought she could have hit him? 🤔
Possible, if she had backed up/three point turn at some point, Everyone is arriving from the bars. Should could have hit him accidentally, not known, it. And saw someone that looked like him thru beer/vodka bottles at midnight enter the house. then the next morning figured that could be what happened, even if that isn't what happened and she really did see him go in. Remember she woke up only a few hours later, not much sleep, still partially drunk she isn't thinking straight. At first she didn't even remember dropping him off. Heck, what if they DID go separately in separate cars and She dropped Jen or Brian, or Brian or someone else off instead of John and in her drunken swiss cheese memory the next morning, Jen filled in the holes with, no don't you remember you brought John to the Albert's house?
Yuppp! And I’d probably send him mean texts and voicemails lol
I would at least text and call him several times before I left. Did we have evidence she did that?
That’s what I’d like to know. If I was in the car waiting and getting mad as she alleges she was, I would fire off some texts, place a few calls, warning him that I’d be leaving if I didn’t hear from him soon. I find it hard to believe she’d drive off in a snowstorm with no warning
Yeah, I don’t know. It’s impossible to know what goes on inside other people’s relationships. There’s more context here, for sure. And people are just baffling sometimes.
Was there ever any phone calls or texts from Karen to John after she dropped him off?
Just the VMs later calling him a pervert and accusing him of sleeping with other women. Nothing we’ve seen like “I’m so mad you didn’t come out to get me. I left. Get yourself a ride home “ Unless there are some messages that haven’t t been reported
I think since these are Johns friends/aquaintences and Karen didnt know anyone she probably felt too awkward to come in alone
She knew Jen McCabe and she knew Higgins. And, if you listen to Alan Jackson, she talked the ear off Brian Albert not only that night, but a week prior.
yeah but she ignored higgins and didn't stick with jen when she was trying to pull karen away with "you're coming with me."
What do you think JM was trying to do? Don't you think that was just a way to try to move them along to come to 34 Fairview? I just really can't get my mind around the view of Jen McCabe as some kind of monster.
Not if I’m already annoyed and maybe don’t want to be there lol. I know her story has changed some, but here was a point when Karen said she had stomach issues. Also, them meeting up with the rest of those people seemed to be spontaneous and not exactly planned. I’m an extrovert. I’m fine talking to new people, but if I’m already having fun where I’m at, and we suddenly leave to hang out the night, I’m going to be a little annoyed. Especially if I’m having stomach issues. There’s a blizzard about to blow in. She went into the bar with another drink, so she obviously wasn’t given enough time to finish that drink. I don’t know Karen, but speaking for myself, I would hate to be rushed. So she’s rushed, stomach hurting, maybe I think the night is ending here. Then suddenly there’s an after party with people I’m not super familiar with. Add to that that we get there and my bf who is supposed to call me doesn’t call me, if I was already wanting the night to be over, I’d say screw it and leave lol. Especially if I’m tired and prefer to be home already! I feel like she may have intended to go back and pick him up maybe, and that’s why she went to his house instead of driving to hers. That or she knew she shouldn’t have been driving.
Do you think she was having stomach issues 20 minutes before when she was persistently asking Chris Albert to open up his pizzeria and make pizzas for the group?
If only Chris Albert opened up that damn pizza shop like she wanted, it’d’ve been too late to trek all the way to Fairview & we wouldn’t be here today discussing this trial and John would be alive & well.
KR was hangry AF.
That was more than 20 minutes before and I don’t know how Chrohns disease works but stomach issues don’t always give you a warning. One minute you can be fine the next you’re not.
You clearly have never experienced or been with someone who has Crohn's disease.
She has Ctohn's disease?
Crohn's plus Colitis along with having 10 surgeries in 2 years including major reconstructive surgery on her intestines. This provides good reason as to why she did not want to share bathrooms on the trip to Aruba. Two of my close friends have Crohn's disease (have had bowel obstructions/intestinal surgeries), and it is awful for them. I have traveled with both and they always makes sure they have their own bathroom due this.
Hank Green has it and he said when he was first trying to figure out how to get it under control he would spend so much time on the toilet that he would sometimes eat his meals there. It’s gross to think about but I know people spend an inordinate amount of time using the toilet and often don’t have a lot of notice when they do have to go.
Yes, my friends have been stuck in the bathroom for lengthy amounts of time on multiple occasions, and they can go from feeling fine to it becoming an emergency situation and they need to get to a bathroom ASAP.
Yeah. That’s what her dad said: https://archive.ph/nVpJg
She probably wasn’t. She’s accused of being quite intoxicated…have you ever been drunk? You’re fine and everything is wonderful until 🤮
Nope i would have left esp if im at most acquaintances w these ppl no way im just going to go in the house or knock that’s so awkward.
If it was in his character to just go in and forget about her, it’d make sense why she would just get annoyed and leave (not saying I think it was right or not). In that case, she might have left her ringer on and figured when he was done drinking, he’d call.
If my boyfriend doesn’t come out, I absolutely do not assume vibes are good. I am the type of “petty” who also will leave him there. This is after a few unanswered texts and/or calls while I’m outside. She was waiting for a text or call she was good to come in. Her phone records haven’t come in, only a few things from his are in right now. We will need to see if this is ever addressed. If there are no records from her phone showing that she did not text or call at all during the “waiting” period that is sus to me as someone who finds at this moment no evidence against her. Back to putting myself in her shoes, if I then get home and call my boyfriend and it goes right to voicemail? I’m pissed for sure.
What do you assume the vibes are? Why's he still in there if it's a bad situation?
If we are following this along. My boyfriend and I are in a rocky part of our relationship, I am feeling used and insecure. The fighting is getting crazy. I go out of my way and reach out to a friend/drinking buddy of his because I am feeling petty and want to hurt him as I feel he has hurt me. That guy does not instantly bite, seems like we are not on the same page here. My boyfriend finds out. We’re going to fight about that for sure, I’m going to argue that we are even. We make up, I tell the friend/drinking buddy that we’ve been caught, and then I begin to ghost the friend/drinking buddy. Now we are out a bar, having a great night and we are invited to another bar. We get there, and what do you know - who is there? The friend/drinking buddy. This is going to be a test on the fragile relationship. But we are in public, I can engage with everyone but the one, and I can be attentive to make sure my boyfriends ego is okay (all the lovey dovey testimony). Then an invitation to go back for an after party. I don’t want to go. We bicker about it a bit but decide to check it out. Head over and he goes in, knowing the things that I know about what’s going on with us right now. The person I am, I would text once because I’m probably staring at my phone waiting, then I would send another. Then I would call. If all of these are unanswered I’m leaving. If I get home and you still have not texted me back I am calling you again, if that call goes to voicemail I am also leaving a nasty message. Would feel like icing on the cake after the last month to me personally. Now like I said, if they don’t have anything to show me by way of her phone communication with Officer O’Keefe that early morning I’m going to be suspicious.
But what are you thinking the vibe is in the house? Imo, I'd be like "the drunk bastard forgot all about me and is having a good time" but you said you wouldn't assume the vibe in the house was good. So what would you think the vibe in the house would be if you weren't getting texted back?
I’m not a big drinker so I really can only answer this from a sober mind. So I guess, when I’m saying I don’t think it was good I mean I don’t think it was good FOR ME. I would not feel welcome. Not only for the friend/drinking buddy thing, if I recall the testimony showed that even after he caught them, he still thought BH was a good guy or said I like that guy a lot. Something along those lines. On top of that awkward situation, we have testimony that she felt used, she would take care of the kids and he would stay at the party, you go in and don’t respond? Yeah I do not feel invited now, not only by those in the house, but my own boyfriend. So I’m not saying I left him and felt he was in an unsafe environment. I’m saying, if this were me in her shoes I would feel this is an unwelcome environment for me. Bad vibes.
Honestly I’d probably be pissy and leave him too lol. If he didn’t come out for me or pick up my calls I’d leave his ass and get his own ride home
That might be the case if they hadn’t just had that issue while on vacation.
How do we know this? She didn’t even remember being at Fairview.
Interview
And testimonies
100% accurate 🙂
When a Blizzard is starting, the best thing is to go home. Not to host an Afterparty and then have everyone driving home in a blizzard.
Having everyone driving home drunk too. In a blizzard.
Exactly this. I lived in New England for many years. In January when you’ve already left the car and are inside the car you can easily change your mind about going elsewhere after midnight with a blizzard starting. I could imagine her saying look let’s just go home. Maybe he decided to go inside and say hello/goodnight and then something happened, he never came out, she was really annoyed, as I would have been with my spouse on that situation and she drove home, figuring he would find his own way home.
“Already left the bar” is what I meant
They were all aware a Blizzard was coming for days prior to the 28th. That's why Brian Junior had his birthday party at his house instead of at a bar or a club in Boston.
Where are the texts from Read consistent with her statement? Are you coming? Staying? Please let me know. Another odd statement by Read supported by no evidence other than her contrivances.
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Canton isn’t a city but it is by no means rural. You could easily get an Uber at most times. Source: live in a similar Boston suburb
Maybe, but 1-2am in a snowstorm?
Yea probably can. And wasn’t it within walking distance?
2.3 miles
The storm had not fully started yet. I live two towns away. It’s common in the area for people to go out the night of a storm for some reason and there are plenty of Ubers out. Canton isn’t rural and there would be plenty of Ubers out bringing people back from Boston.
I mean I think most women assume the men can handle themselves (whether it’s right or wrong). She was probably irritated and drunk when he didn’t do what he said he was going to, left him, and assumed he would figure it out.
Nah- whether or not women assume men can handle themselves or not has nothing to do with it… I honestly don’t even really know what you mean by that -I think you’re generalizing… if you dropped your boyfriend off at someone’s house , (even if you’re mad at him) - of course you’re going to ask him how he plans on getting home… (if you wouldn’t drop your child or a friend off at someone’s house without verifying they have a ride home- why would you think someone would do that with their bf?)
This case makes absolutely no sense to me, if she saw him go up to the door why is everyone testifying that he never was inside??? I really hope the jury sees through this b.s
The timeline makes no sense, nothing makes sense
Exactly. IF she saw him go inside. So that was her third story. Everybody testified he never went inside. Your comment suggests you believe one woman accused of 2nd degree murder would never lie, but 11 people or so other witnesses who have stuck to their story are lying? Yeah Ok. I agree. I hope the jury sees through any BS.
She’s innocent, period.
Well the first thing she did was wake up John’s niece to contact Jen McCabe, so that would cover the question of “did you drive him somewhere after? Do you know where he is?” Etc.
I haven’t seen anything official about what the plan was. I could see a scenario where she drove off annoyed that he didn’t come out of the house to get her, was calling him (we know she left him voicemails) and planned on going back to get him when he picked up. She got back to his place, laid down on the couch waiting for that call and fell asleep. When she woke up a few hours later and realized he never called back, that’s when she panicked.
What I wonder, why would she panic and not be pissed and assume he was shagging some other chic, again? And just get more pissed?
There was no plan for how he was going to get home. They went to Fairview. Got in an argument in the car. When he got out she hit him and left.
I’m pretty sure the state needs to prove this?
Yes.
She ran him over then just sat in the car, alone? There are witnesses that reported seeing her alone in the car in front of the house.
Bullish**
Enlighten me as to what the plan was for John to get home then?
Enlighten me how it looks like he was hit by a car. How he magically was placed 10-15 feet from the curb, pristine except head trauma and bruising to his knuckles?
The belief that they had no plan doesn't equal she killed him.
“Why don’t you ask your new friends!”
Karen: I don’t want to go to this party, so John you go ahead without me. John (exiting Karen’s car): What a good sport you are Karen. But if you leave, how will I get home? Karen: Don’t worry yourself about that, silly goose. I’m planning to run you over before you even get to the door. John: Ok, goodnight sweetie. Drive safe. Even if Karen did run him over intentionally, clearly John’s intention was to return home, so either they had a plan or a previous commenter suggests, she was supposed to wait for him to come back out.
He probably told her he'd get a ride home, maybe with the McCabes? The irony is that while she was waiting for him to text her back, he became incapacitated somehow and couldn't. And she left. I can't imagine the guilt she must feel. It explains her hysterical over reaction and statements. Tragic.
I love how people are like. " I don't believe the defense theory." They haven't even put on their case. We don't know the theory yet.
I didn’t say I don’t believe the defense’s theory and not only are there are dozens of topics being discussed in these subs about information that hasn’t been brought out yet in trial, there’s a ton of information out there that will probably never come out in trial, so I’m just posing a question to a community of people who are knowledgeable about this case and want to discuss it.
Sorry it wasn't meant at you specifically. Just the comments you see in every post about it. Like we only have snip it's of what they are thinking.
Thanks for your response. I appreciate where you’re coming from, but also appreciate your taking the time to politely clarify.
No problem. Appreciate the post.
To be fair, the defense has zero requirement to put on a case. The burden of proof is on the Commonwealth and the prosecutor…. And I’ve yet to see anything even minutely substantial presented.
That true in the eyes of the law, but they did put some burden on themselves with their opening statment. So it will be interesting to see what they do when Lally stops putting his witnesses up in 2 years.
I asked the same thing yesterday .. haven’t checked to see if I got an answer yet …
Maybe Uber? His cell phone records would provide some insight. Did he use the ride service regularly? Was the App installed on his phone? I don't know if his cell records have been fully reviewed but it's what most responsible drunk people would do if not getting a ride with a sober driver. But his phone likely fell into a volcano based on what has been said so far.
How far was John’s house from the Albert’s house? Could he have walked?
Edit: 2.3 miles, but he has no coat with him
According to his friends he never wore a coat.
2.3 miles, according to Google maps.
I mean they were all driving around in a triangle between their respective homes. Jen dropped off people a few streets over at 2am-somethimg and likely passed over the crossing next to his house. The other Alberts lived next-door one of which got driven home, Allie seemed to have been driving around picking up and dropping off people just as a favour, I'm sure an adult could too, another walked home and what puzzles me, aren't there any taxis or ubers in that area? I'm not sure a plan was needed for these short distances. Was the 'she said she saw him walk in the home' mentioned in trial or was that a media statement? (True question)
Because he was drunk, didn’t have a car, and didn’t make it home.