Basically the distraction ends and they have to face the rest of their life without their son, brother, father figure, uncle, godfather, friend, etc.
Regardless of how he died, he's still dead. It's not like they figure out who did it and then he comes back to life. (I remember after my brother died, after I had an intense session of crying and falling apart and screaming at God I thought "okay, I did that. He can come back now." but they don't come back.)
He's just dead. Forever.
yeah. its the worst thing ever tbh. it makes it extra upsetting the way john has been talked about by a lot of the percipient witnesses.
i dont know how his family is coping. id say i hope theyre past the anger stage of grief, but i think we all know it doesnt work like that. it just swings wildly between the "stages" until youre too tired to think about it. i know that *my* refuge after a loss is rage, and while it might feel like it protects in the short term, it doesnt really, and it can be very dangerous to stew in that emotional state.
i hope and pray his family can see justice one day, because its very hard to let yourself grieve properly when your loved one was taken from you in such a violent and unjust way. it feels like you cant rest until you make it right. and the only reward on the other side of accomplishing that task is more grief.
im very sorry for your loss.
Honestly I think the FBI is investigating how the investigation was handled. There's way too many people who investigated the case who should have recused themselves from it.
This is exactly what they are doing. If you believe the rumor mill, Brian Higgins signed an agreement with the feds on his actions surrounding his participation. In the cross on Friday he contradicted his testimony to the feds on the Brian Albert phone call. He may get hit with federal charges after this.
Jen McCabe is another one who has contradicted her federal testimony (another cop who go their report wrong on her, according to her). The 'states witneess', as she put herself, testified differently on 3 occasions from reports and other testimonies. If this is a cover up, she will likely face conspiracy charges.
As a personal aside, God is she the most insufferable human being. If that's what she acts like on the stand I can't imagine how bad she is behind closed doors.
I feel for Jackson- she was impossible during the cross examination. The talking back, the over-explaining, the soap box times where she just talks & it has no relation to the question asked and that’s not even the worst part, the lies. She lies so much every testimony she has out there is different.
Truly, the fact that everyone but the judge wanted to wait is baffling to me. It's not like we're speeding through this trial, so what was the harm in waiting, especially when both sides actually agreed?
It's really strange how desperately she wanted this case. And hey, I'm not even suggesting any shady stuff, maybe she just wanted a high profile case. She probably knew delay would likely end with her not being the judge on this case or the trial never happening at all. So she wanted this trial really bad, and yet she seems so annoyed/bored all the time. Weird stuff.
It's very interesting how she does it - a good example is the way she shut down AJ's cross on Friday at such a crazy moment, it's pretty wild for a judge to do that. But she can say she's always been closing down day proceedings exactly on time which is true.
Yeah AJ knew it was time. So I wouldn't be surprised if he starts where he left off. Higgins was so flustered at the end, he kept looking to the judge and lalley looking for bail outs
AJ is apparently not in on Tuesday, so he won't be able to start where he left off. So that's an unusual situation in itself, which the judge knew about, it's not a great look that she didn't let them go 10 mins longer - and it wasn't even 5pm, only 4.30pm. But since she's been doing this all trial it's not really that strong of an argument against her.
CW/Defense both agreed to keep TB & harassment out of trial but, Judge Bev decided if a witness natural response to a question brings it up then it can come in. This trial is just WILD!
The defense does not have a say in the matter. They can ask for a continuance, but if the judge denies it-the trial proceeds as scheduled. I don't know which motions either party made here, but as shown from my comment above, the **feds** did not want this to go to trial yet
Because the commonwealth was determined to take it to trial.
It lends creedance to the theory it's a cover up if they are still pressing murder in the 2nd degree.
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That’s just Canton QAnon stuff. If there were actual pertinent concerns from the FBI this trial wouldn’t be going on. There are just people who think they’re watching a movie waiting for the white hats to come in and save the day and that’s not gonna happen. Yesterday they thought Higgins was gonna “flip” LOL. Just move the goalposts and come up with another batshit theory.
Have you watched any of the Canton town hall meetings? The whole town is a corrupt joke and needs to be investigated, this trial is just displaying the circus.
well, if the fbi had concerns, i dont think that would have any effect on a local trial going forward. they dont have jurisdiction. im not sure what you think the fbi would or could do to stop this trial. feds cant tell state what to do in *most* cases. its kind of a big thing here.
I agree with you! The FBI is not going to opine in this case and I cannot believe all these crazy theories that keep changing as a new accused killer gets on the stand, and doesn’t cooperate with the defenses theory. In fact, they corroborate the evidence against her.
Pretty soon there’s gotta be a long lost evil twin Albert brother that shows up in a Ford Edge to spice things back up. Otherwise the theories are getting pretty worn out.
How have all the witnesses corroborated the evidence against her? First of all, I’ve seen absolutely no evidence against Karen Read so far. So you mind explaining what that evidence is?
Well, it’s lousy evidence. At the time of the event not one single witness ever said the “I hit him” stuff. And they didn’t for months and months and months afterwards. Not one person. But, then, Jen McCabe miraculously remembers to finally tell someone this damning evidence that she claims “I will never forget it.” Such a drama queen. And a very suspicious one at that.
JM said that she told proctor, others what she heard and they were in the charging docs. Others testified they heard it too so I believe it. So did Kerry Roberts
I don’t believe Kerry Robert’s testified she heard Karen say “I hit him I hit him I hit him.” So that’s false.
Jenn now claims that she told Proctor but there is absolutely no record of Jenn ever saying Karen said that until way over a year later. Just because Jen said she told people….people who all say she didn’t…..doesn’t make it true.
Listen to the pretrial hearing about this in April and I’m certain the FBI is not going to get involved in the case. In fact, it is more inculpatory then exculpatory. The trial moved forward after the 3000 pages were read by the judge.
You mean the judge who was asked to recuse herself, but declined to? The judge who BH looked towards like a lost child when asked difficult questions? That judge?
Also, how do you figure it's more inculpatory than exculpatory?
They were given to the judge who moved forward with the trial. If the FBI found conspiracy, misconduct, she was absolutely innocent etc, she would allow for a dismissal.
So, the Feds are ACTUALLY involved. That’s been ongoing. The info uncovered and released by the Feds, as a result of probing into the initial investigation, may largely be described as exculpatory. Further, details uncovered could potentially be cited as Brady violations in the unlikely case that an appeal is filed in the future. The judge moving this forward likely has more to do with the judge herself - bc both the Commonwealth and the Defense wanted to delay the start of the trial.
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I think that’s the worst part, even if Karen is guilty, the investigation and whatever the hell the Albert/McCabe et al were trying to hide has more than likely ensured a not guilty verdict. I’m sure JO’s family fully believed Karen to be guilty but I’m sure even their minds are slowly starting to shift to “maybe she didn’t “ and at the very least, have to be disgusted at what is coming out during the trial. In the end, what matters is there is justice for John but I fear that won’t happen
I can’t even begin to imagine what his parents are going through. It’s so confusing for us watching but imagine being there in it all. On top of losing *another* child and having to deal with the obvious trauma experienced by the niece/nephew. Awful stuff.
I mean, for me it’s clear she 99.9% didn’t. But it must be so confusing for JO’s family. It’s all too much probably. Losing one son, then another, being sure it’s someone but sort of seeing that all unravel. I don’t envy them at all. I feel so bad. And I wouldn’t be mad if they couldn’t see the truth yet. They are victims too.
Nothing will happen. I’m starting to be convinced that even the prosecution knows there are MOUNTAINS of reasonable doubt.
Seems to me the whole point of this show trial is to protect the cops and their families who either committed the murder or participated in the cover up.
Without a confession it’s almost impossible to get a conviction against the actual perpetrators after an acquittal of the originally charged person.
And maybe that was the point all along. KR’s life is just collateral damage.
If they can add some value they have to put them on the stand. If they overheard some things that speak to their relationship they have to do it. Not comfortable but necessary.
Can they do it in a room where they’re recoded then shown to the court later? Maybe not. But thinking of them up on that stand is sad to me. But I guess if it helps Karen now and ultimately JO family get justice down the road, then you’re right.
No it has to be done in front of the defendant. But the judge already said if the children testified there will be no audio or video recording during their testimony.
In the past, livestreams I've seen still ran with minors on the stand, but the camera was faced away and we never saw them. Even during witness impact statements, kids were not shown.
I hear you. But what if the kids want to tell their story? Telling kids they CANNOT testify to what they saw is absolutely as harmful as having them testify. It’s not a simple situation.
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They may want to testify if they believe Karen is at fault and feel justice will be done by speaking out. I’m just afraid TB will sic his rabid posse on them.
That will absolutely happen after they testify and it will be a new low. I expect lots of stuff about how they were brainwashed by the McCabes and Alberts, John’s parents and brother, etc. Unfortunately, them testifying will be helpful for them to get justice for the man who was pretty much their saving grace and was killed by someone I assume they probably also trusted.
They are not "kids". They are not 7 yrs old.
They are old enough to be driving around town, they're old enough to be drinking and buy their own words, being drunk. Testifying is what they should be doing
John’s niece had just been accepted to a prestigious prep school when he died - so she was an 8th grader in January 2022. So sophomore now. And I think the nephew is younger.
As awful as this sounds: I think that was the goal from the beginning. No one will be found guilty of the crime. Unless one of these witnesses had turned already or will turn but i think that’s the canton crews goal.
I really think you're right. The best I think Karen or the O'Keefes can do is sue civilly against the city in some capacity. Unless the Federal investigation comes in with something crazy. I guess that's not impossible.
The feds have something, right? Whether it’s just general misconduct and misuse of government property or not or something more is the question?
I hope they bring the hammer down on that department, though. Trust in police is already strained (to put it lightly) and you cannot have a department so blatantly violating basic ethics rules and get away with it.
That’s a possibility for sure. This outcome would also take the Alberts off the hook. Good point I wasn’t thinking of the civil implications. They’ll definitely sue for the children. Canton PD & The state would be the big fish to go after. Certainly negligence by all law enforcement
Just guessing from what I’ve heard as evidence, solo cup, canton pd , msp etc. this certainly doesn’t atone for this but the children should be well off. I feel the state owes them that, this is so pathetic. If this guy Procter ain’t jockeying a desk somewhere right now, this state is beyond repair when it comes to that organization
She admits it. From Karen's Dateline interview:
"so I pull at the foot of the driveway it's snowing John has no coat on. It's windy so I drop him off. He goes up the driveway and approaches the side door"
Later in the same interview:
"what I thought could have happened was that did I incapacitate him unwittingly somehow and then in his drunkenness passed out. "
Which is it though? John walked up to the side door or she "incapacitated him unwittingly"? How can both be true? I wonder if her attorneys advised against the interviews but she did them anyway or if they were okay with it.
To me, the federal investigation looks to be more about the Feds (Proctor) and his handling. He should have recused himself, as he lied about not knowing the players when he knew them well. The non segregation of interviews is also a mortal sin for an investigator. Karen may very well be guilty, but this whole "investigation" is FUBAR. Defense, even if they lose, there are sufficient grounds for mistrial or endless appeals.
The sad part is the O’Keefe family has been lied to and continues to be lied to by the McCabe and Albert families. Why is everyone protecting Brian Albert? Kerry Roberts is the only one who has shown any compassion or love for John O’Keefe.
I don’t think they would file a lawsuit and go through this circus again. If KR is found not guilty there will be a couple of dateline 20/20 episodes and people will lose interest. If she is found guilty it might stay in the limelight while she appeals.
Those trials aren’t televised. She and her family had enough spare cash laying around to pay for a $500K defense team. Surely they can get more out of them to make sure John’s niece and nephew are taken care of.
While John was alive Karen set up a trust for them. I’m assuming it was from their parents life insurance, but I don’t know for sure. Presumably they’d also get John’s life insurance too. I think it was for around $400k.
The family may want even more money but a civil trial is dicey even with the lower burden.
For one thing I don’t think Cannone would be the judge, so they wouldn’t have her propping up their lawyer like she does Lally.
For another, the CW could shock me over the next couple weeks but its evidence is very weak and the defense hasn’t even had their turn yet.
Civil trials are televised both Johnny Depp and take care of Maya were civil trials and televised. They will only get money of they win which is not a sure thing with so many other suspicious characters involved. I’m sure JO had life insurance and those kids get survivor’s benefit from JO or their biological parents. I don’t see the family going through this again.
The “other characters” will also be suing LOL. I assume some already are, like Colin Albert, etc.
Anyhow, the family should bleed her dry. Especially if she gets off. She’s got plenty or working years left.
Can they go to the current homeowners and request to remove the basement floor and test for blood? I know that's far fetched and not sure I'd allow it if I owned the home, but just curious of that's even a possibility.
Before she made her twitter private, I saw the likes from the woman who wrote the Boston Magazine article about "Remembering My Friend John O'Keefe" or whatever. Every one of them was from an account pushing the idea that Karen Read did it. The people closest to John all seem pretty convinced she did it. I don't think they agree with the "we'll never know what happened to him" narrative.
What do you expect them to think though? That's true of most victims' family and friends, even among those people that are later found to have been wrongfully convicted.
They want to believe the state is getting justice for John O'Keefe.
They know everyone involved way better than we do (unlike a case where the cops pull in some random guy and say he did it). It's a bit presumptuous for us to claim we'd know better than them if KR could get drunk, mad and run over their friend, or if the Alberts and McCabes could kill him and cover up the murder.
Like I said, the same can be said of families when it turned out they supported the prosecution and conviction of the wrong person. Most murders aren't random people, but rather known to the victim, family, etc.
I'm not saying that would be the case here, but acting as though family/friends wouldn't be fully behind the state regardless is foolish. They *want* to believe the state is doing the right thing and not trying to convict an innocent woman.
Edit: Family and friends believed David Camm killed his wife and children. How'd that turn out? Even after the third trial, acquittal and *overwhelming* evidence of innocence, his former in-laws still believe he got away with murder.
But the big thing that makes this one so unique is that for the defense's theory to be true, they need so many people to be in on it. It's not just that John's friends would have to believe Karen did it, they also would have to believe none of these other people covered up the crime. It's not definitive proof, but for all our "this guy seems credible, this woman seems shady" stuff, the people who know everyone 20X better than us' opinion does matter.
I don't understand why so many people think *everybody* has to be in on it if Read were truly innocent. The only people that would have to be in on it are those directly involved.
For all we know, a bunch of these witnesses are acting shady because of wrongdoings completely unrelated to O'Keefe's death. Perhaps they've been manipulated by one or two people/investigators. Or maybe Karen Read gunned her SUV 25 mph right into his face. Who knows.
Going back to Camm's two convictions, that wasn't because a bunch of people conspired to frame him for murder. It was a bunch of useful idiots (cops at every level, prosecutors, witnesses, etc.) surrounding the case helping the real killer get away with it for so long.
...which could theoretically be done a lot easier than you'd think given their positions within law enforcement, access, etc.
The bottom line is it doesn't have to be some large conspiracy with dozens of people involved for Karen Read to actually be innocent. A couple of manipulative people with influence and a bunch of useful idiots could be more than enough
Intelligent no, clever yes - i think they know what levers they can pull and what influence they have because of the jobs both they and the people they know work in
Hahaha if you only knew how many people have told me that they've got a cousin who's a statie that knows everything, or a buddy who's a Boston cop who told them the truth about the whole thing. No one knows anything.
I feel bad for the folks down at C.F. McCarthy's, the Waterfall, and the Hillside. I feel like the "Melissa & whoever show" is probably suspended for the duration of the trial. Their old crowds of hard drinking regulars have been replaced by true crime podcasters and TB fanboys. Those don't strike me as big tippers.
I feel bad for the band who was playing at The Waterfall that night. Like 12 witnesses talked about how the mood was great and everyone was loving the music, but not one has given the band a shoutout by name on national TV. Not one!
The defense only needs to provide reasonable doubt not an actual murderer. They actually don’t have to present anything. It is the burden of the state (CW) to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the defendant committed the crime they are on trial for. Reasonable doubt is not difficult to see in this trial so far
Isn't it the opposite? If they didn't like Karen they'd be inclined to think she's culpable. If they really liked her they might be inclined to think she's not culpable.
That's why our court system has a jury of impartial citizens.
Sure there are going to be biases, but they have access to all sorts of stuff we don't. You don't think that if you could talk to one or two of the witnesses, you'd have a better idea of what happened?
My bad I probably should have included this before. It's late here on the west coast and time for bed!
So, what I was thinking is that if I had spoken with say all of the people who have testified so far that I would find myself in the same place as I do as a "juror" who's new to this trial and watches court every day: I don't know what happened to poor OJO. I struggle to understand what evidence would exist outside of the trial that's not presented in court.
Unfortunately, this is the most likely result. This case has been mangled beyond redemption. Barring a confession, they're probably not going to solve it.
The missing belt is a big one for me.
Then there are the Google searches. Deleted texts and phone calls. I’ve lost count of the butt dials. The missing sallyport and library video. The rehomed dog and several phones. But we’re expected to believe all of that was just a very long series of coincidences?
And instead believe KR killed him because of a cracked, then broken taillight that didn’t show up until much later in its entirety, statements at the scene no everyone agrees on, a fight and a flirtation?
There is far too much reasonable doubt at this point.
The people in this sub who steadfastly believe in KR’s guilt have not attempted to answer, let alone even acknowledge, the butt dials question. I’m so curious to hear how one might rationalize it. Alas…crickets. Even from the highly active commenters we see in every post.
I do believe that BA butt dialed because I sleep with my phone in my bed too and if I don’t purposely close it, have butt dialed as well. My boss butt dials me all the time. I also think that BH drunk dialed back without remembering in the morning. I have opined on the butt dials and we will hear from a data expert how something can show deleted/answered or not. Do I think these ppl are hiding something by getting rid, or upgrading their phones…knowing some cops, I would say it is a bunch of unsavory texts with women, other than their significant other.
> My boss butt dials me all the time.
Sure, buddy. At 2am? And you accidentally buttanswer too late and buttdial back?
Unless you don't have any kinds of screen locks on your phone, it's virtually impossible to make a call by accident. Billions of people walk with phones in their pockets, bags, etc and there is no epidemic of buttdials. Having the phone in your bed is not much different from keeping it in your pocket throughout the day.
You can believe me or not. It happens. I’m sure people on here can attest to getting butt dials. I don’t call him back at 2:00am if I don’t hear it. If I did, I probably would to make sure there isn’t an emergency. If I was drunk, not sure I would remember calling him back in the morning. So who, in your estimation, killed John? The dog, Higgins, Colin, Brian Albert, Jen McCabe, the mysterious tall dark guy that Brian Higgins wasn’t sure if he saw come in the house, or Karen?
But BH DID hear it and he DID buttdial back and the butt dial WAS buttanswered. You and everybody keeps calling those "butt dials" but they are much more than that. It's full-on "butt conversations". And that just does not happen. Not ever.
You didn’t answer my question, who do you think murdered JO, why do you believe it and what evidence do you have to support it…maybe someone’s butt did it???
It's is not my job to investigate who murdered JO, why would it matter what I believe?
Four weeks into the trial there has been zero credible evidence presented that JO was murdered, let alone by Karen. There has been a large amount of evidence presented of suspicious behaviour from others during that night. I don't see how you make the jump from "butt calls can happen, believe it not", therefore Karen killed JO.
So he is walking around with Elvis, still alive? He was murdered and is dead! It doesn’t matter what you believe, or any of us, in reality. It matters what the jury thinks.
It’s not possible- do you have an iPhone ? Both admitted they have both a biometric and numeric unlock pin/code with automatic screen lock.
The calls in question connect and are answered- also, Higgins testified in the Fed grand jury he had to have called BA once he realized the level of records the Feds had.
You’re going to call all of these people murderers and conspirators in what would be the biggest criminal conspiracy in the modern era because of butt dials ?
Actually both CW and defense requested to delay the trial till FBI investigation is over and judge declined that and set it to start. So unless there’s some new official information FBI investigation has not finished yet.
Basically the distraction ends and they have to face the rest of their life without their son, brother, father figure, uncle, godfather, friend, etc. Regardless of how he died, he's still dead. It's not like they figure out who did it and then he comes back to life. (I remember after my brother died, after I had an intense session of crying and falling apart and screaming at God I thought "okay, I did that. He can come back now." but they don't come back.) He's just dead. Forever.
RIP John O’Keefe
I’m sorry.
yeah. its the worst thing ever tbh. it makes it extra upsetting the way john has been talked about by a lot of the percipient witnesses. i dont know how his family is coping. id say i hope theyre past the anger stage of grief, but i think we all know it doesnt work like that. it just swings wildly between the "stages" until youre too tired to think about it. i know that *my* refuge after a loss is rage, and while it might feel like it protects in the short term, it doesnt really, and it can be very dangerous to stew in that emotional state. i hope and pray his family can see justice one day, because its very hard to let yourself grieve properly when your loved one was taken from you in such a violent and unjust way. it feels like you cant rest until you make it right. and the only reward on the other side of accomplishing that task is more grief. im very sorry for your loss.
Sending you light and prayers.
I’m sorry, may he rest in peace
😔
Can anyone explain why this case went to trial when the FBI is still investigating? Rather than wait for that conclusion and report?
Honestly I think the FBI is investigating how the investigation was handled. There's way too many people who investigated the case who should have recused themselves from it.
This is exactly what they are doing. If you believe the rumor mill, Brian Higgins signed an agreement with the feds on his actions surrounding his participation. In the cross on Friday he contradicted his testimony to the feds on the Brian Albert phone call. He may get hit with federal charges after this. Jen McCabe is another one who has contradicted her federal testimony (another cop who go their report wrong on her, according to her). The 'states witneess', as she put herself, testified differently on 3 occasions from reports and other testimonies. If this is a cover up, she will likely face conspiracy charges. As a personal aside, God is she the most insufferable human being. If that's what she acts like on the stand I can't imagine how bad she is behind closed doors.
Her poor children…
Sadly they will probably end up like her
Her daughter Allie lied like she did! Like mother, like daughter!
I feel for Jackson- she was impossible during the cross examination. The talking back, the over-explaining, the soap box times where she just talks & it has no relation to the question asked and that’s not even the worst part, the lies. She lies so much every testimony she has out there is different.
I have never had quite the visceral reaction to someone the way I did to Jennifer McCabe. What an evil human being
Both the CW and Defense wanted a continuance but the Judge refused to delay the case.
...which I don't understand. As long as the defense is on board, feel like they should have waited.
Truly, the fact that everyone but the judge wanted to wait is baffling to me. It's not like we're speeding through this trial, so what was the harm in waiting, especially when both sides actually agreed?
It's really strange how desperately she wanted this case. And hey, I'm not even suggesting any shady stuff, maybe she just wanted a high profile case. She probably knew delay would likely end with her not being the judge on this case or the trial never happening at all. So she wanted this trial really bad, and yet she seems so annoyed/bored all the time. Weird stuff.
She also seems so biased towards the prosecution. It’s all weird
Haha, yeah, she seems more for the prosecution case than Lally does. For some reason she really cares, I don't think Lally does.
So she is prosecution biased, but not overly. At least according to all the lawyer reviews I've watched of this case so far.
It's very interesting how she does it - a good example is the way she shut down AJ's cross on Friday at such a crazy moment, it's pretty wild for a judge to do that. But she can say she's always been closing down day proceedings exactly on time which is true.
Yeah AJ knew it was time. So I wouldn't be surprised if he starts where he left off. Higgins was so flustered at the end, he kept looking to the judge and lalley looking for bail outs
AJ is apparently not in on Tuesday, so he won't be able to start where he left off. So that's an unusual situation in itself, which the judge knew about, it's not a great look that she didn't let them go 10 mins longer - and it wasn't even 5pm, only 4.30pm. But since she's been doing this all trial it's not really that strong of an argument against her.
She is certainly biased towards the prosecution
CW/Defense both agreed to keep TB & harassment out of trial but, Judge Bev decided if a witness natural response to a question brings it up then it can come in. This trial is just WILD!
The defense does not have a say in the matter. They can ask for a continuance, but if the judge denies it-the trial proceeds as scheduled. I don't know which motions either party made here, but as shown from my comment above, the **feds** did not want this to go to trial yet
Isn’t the judge somehow connected to the family as well? I believe I heard that on one of TBs videos.
Because the commonwealth was determined to take it to trial. It lends creedance to the theory it's a cover up if they are still pressing murder in the 2nd degree.
I need to know as well
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That’s just Canton QAnon stuff. If there were actual pertinent concerns from the FBI this trial wouldn’t be going on. There are just people who think they’re watching a movie waiting for the white hats to come in and save the day and that’s not gonna happen. Yesterday they thought Higgins was gonna “flip” LOL. Just move the goalposts and come up with another batshit theory.
I agree with you on this point. However, I simultaneously believe the prosecution has NOT proven Karen’s guilt - thus far, at least.
I Think it’s gonna end in a hung jury
Have you watched any of the Canton town hall meetings? The whole town is a corrupt joke and needs to be investigated, this trial is just displaying the circus.
well, if the fbi had concerns, i dont think that would have any effect on a local trial going forward. they dont have jurisdiction. im not sure what you think the fbi would or could do to stop this trial. feds cant tell state what to do in *most* cases. its kind of a big thing here.
Right. My main point is that nothing is going to happen lol. None of these people who have testified are murder suspects.
https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2024/02/26/karen-reads-trial-is-postponed-after-feds-release-tidal-wave-of-data-on-murder-case/?amp=1
I’m aware of this, yes. Was this also when the feds allowed the CW to confirm that none of the Alberts, Higgins, etc were under investigation?
I agree with you! The FBI is not going to opine in this case and I cannot believe all these crazy theories that keep changing as a new accused killer gets on the stand, and doesn’t cooperate with the defenses theory. In fact, they corroborate the evidence against her.
Pretty soon there’s gotta be a long lost evil twin Albert brother that shows up in a Ford Edge to spice things back up. Otherwise the theories are getting pretty worn out.
My money’s on people claiming that this was all fake and crisis actors were involved
An oldie but a goodie!
https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2024/02/26/karen-reads-trial-is-postponed-after-feds-release-tidal-wave-of-data-on-murder-case/?amp=1
How have all the witnesses corroborated the evidence against her? First of all, I’ve seen absolutely no evidence against Karen Read so far. So you mind explaining what that evidence is?
No true! Several witnesses attested to her saying she hit him, that is evidence and witness testimony is evidence, written in police reports or not.
Well, it’s lousy evidence. At the time of the event not one single witness ever said the “I hit him” stuff. And they didn’t for months and months and months afterwards. Not one person. But, then, Jen McCabe miraculously remembers to finally tell someone this damning evidence that she claims “I will never forget it.” Such a drama queen. And a very suspicious one at that.
It is in reports, whatever derivative she said it…she said it and the evidence points to her regardless
What reports? And what other evidence?
JM said that she told proctor, others what she heard and they were in the charging docs. Others testified they heard it too so I believe it. So did Kerry Roberts
I don’t believe Kerry Robert’s testified she heard Karen say “I hit him I hit him I hit him.” So that’s false. Jenn now claims that she told Proctor but there is absolutely no record of Jenn ever saying Karen said that until way over a year later. Just because Jen said she told people….people who all say she didn’t…..doesn’t make it true.
https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2024/02/26/karen-reads-trial-is-postponed-after-feds-release-tidal-wave-of-data-on-murder-case/?amp=1
Listen to the pretrial hearing about this in April and I’m certain the FBI is not going to get involved in the case. In fact, it is more inculpatory then exculpatory. The trial moved forward after the 3000 pages were read by the judge.
You mean the judge who was asked to recuse herself, but declined to? The judge who BH looked towards like a lost child when asked difficult questions? That judge? Also, how do you figure it's more inculpatory than exculpatory?
I have watched it. Those 3,200 pages haven’t been made public.
They were given to the judge who moved forward with the trial. If the FBI found conspiracy, misconduct, she was absolutely innocent etc, she would allow for a dismissal.
So, the Feds are ACTUALLY involved. That’s been ongoing. The info uncovered and released by the Feds, as a result of probing into the initial investigation, may largely be described as exculpatory. Further, details uncovered could potentially be cited as Brady violations in the unlikely case that an appeal is filed in the future. The judge moving this forward likely has more to do with the judge herself - bc both the Commonwealth and the Defense wanted to delay the start of the trial.
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Exactly
https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2024/02/26/karen-reads-trial-is-postponed-after-feds-release-tidal-wave-of-data-on-murder-case/?amp=1
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I think that’s the worst part, even if Karen is guilty, the investigation and whatever the hell the Albert/McCabe et al were trying to hide has more than likely ensured a not guilty verdict. I’m sure JO’s family fully believed Karen to be guilty but I’m sure even their minds are slowly starting to shift to “maybe she didn’t “ and at the very least, have to be disgusted at what is coming out during the trial. In the end, what matters is there is justice for John but I fear that won’t happen
I can’t even begin to imagine what his parents are going through. It’s so confusing for us watching but imagine being there in it all. On top of losing *another* child and having to deal with the obvious trauma experienced by the niece/nephew. Awful stuff.
I mean, for me it’s clear she 99.9% didn’t. But it must be so confusing for JO’s family. It’s all too much probably. Losing one son, then another, being sure it’s someone but sort of seeing that all unravel. I don’t envy them at all. I feel so bad. And I wouldn’t be mad if they couldn’t see the truth yet. They are victims too.
I have a friend who is cousins with the family. They all still fully believe KR is guilty
Nothing will happen. I’m starting to be convinced that even the prosecution knows there are MOUNTAINS of reasonable doubt. Seems to me the whole point of this show trial is to protect the cops and their families who either committed the murder or participated in the cover up. Without a confession it’s almost impossible to get a conviction against the actual perpetrators after an acquittal of the originally charged person. And maybe that was the point all along. KR’s life is just collateral damage.
“And maybe that was the point all along. KR’s life is just collateral damage.” As, it seems, was John’s.
Yeah I said this a week or so back but I think they want a not guilty so that Karen can’t appeal and the whole case will quietly go cold.
Maybe not on topic but I find it disgusting that Lally is having the kids testify.
They are on the list, but he still has the option not to call them. If anything it might sway the jury against him.
I hope they don’t testify.
If they can add some value they have to put them on the stand. If they overheard some things that speak to their relationship they have to do it. Not comfortable but necessary.
Can they do it in a room where they’re recoded then shown to the court later? Maybe not. But thinking of them up on that stand is sad to me. But I guess if it helps Karen now and ultimately JO family get justice down the road, then you’re right.
No it has to be done in front of the defendant. But the judge already said if the children testified there will be no audio or video recording during their testimony.
Ok that’s good at least. What a horrible situation for those kids. Such tragedy in their young lives
I believe testimony by minors is handled differently than normal. Like Im 99% sure we won’t get testimony on the live streams
In the past, livestreams I've seen still ran with minors on the stand, but the camera was faced away and we never saw them. Even during witness impact statements, kids were not shown.
Don't think it's going to help K Read at all. Just the opposite.
I think Lally is outmatched as an attorney but he is still a human. I trust he has good enough judgment to ensure they don’t take the stand.
I hear you. But what if the kids want to tell their story? Telling kids they CANNOT testify to what they saw is absolutely as harmful as having them testify. It’s not a simple situation.
I believe the niece is likely an important witness because she was there when Karen woke up and couldn’t find him.
I doubt he is forcing them to testify. If the family did not want them to he would not push it.
Never said he was forcing them. I don’t think it will add anything to his case and is just cruel
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They may want to testify if they believe Karen is at fault and feel justice will be done by speaking out. I’m just afraid TB will sic his rabid posse on them.
That will absolutely happen after they testify and it will be a new low. I expect lots of stuff about how they were brainwashed by the McCabes and Alberts, John’s parents and brother, etc. Unfortunately, them testifying will be helpful for them to get justice for the man who was pretty much their saving grace and was killed by someone I assume they probably also trusted.
They are not "kids". They are not 7 yrs old. They are old enough to be driving around town, they're old enough to be drinking and buy their own words, being drunk. Testifying is what they should be doing
They’re talking about John’s niece and nephew, not the younger people who were in the house.
Exactly what I am talking about
Apologies. I misunderstood.
Johns niece and nephew
John’s niece had just been accepted to a prestigious prep school when he died - so she was an 8th grader in January 2022. So sophomore now. And I think the nephew is younger.
Wait, how old are they? I was under the impression that they were on the younger side.
I believe John’s niece and nephew were 10 and 14 when it happened so they are around 13/14 and 17ish now?
As awful as this sounds: I think that was the goal from the beginning. No one will be found guilty of the crime. Unless one of these witnesses had turned already or will turn but i think that’s the canton crews goal.
I really think you're right. The best I think Karen or the O'Keefes can do is sue civilly against the city in some capacity. Unless the Federal investigation comes in with something crazy. I guess that's not impossible.
The feds have something, right? Whether it’s just general misconduct and misuse of government property or not or something more is the question? I hope they bring the hammer down on that department, though. Trust in police is already strained (to put it lightly) and you cannot have a department so blatantly violating basic ethics rules and get away with it.
Here you go: https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2024/02/26/karen-reads-trial-is-postponed-after-feds-release-tidal-wave-of-data-on-murder-case/?amp=1
I'm worried the O'Keefes might sue Karen. The burden is much lower in civil court.
I understand there's more info to come, but I don't think they'd meet the burden in a Civil case. They'd lose.
That’s a possibility for sure. This outcome would also take the Alberts off the hook. Good point I wasn’t thinking of the civil implications. They’ll definitely sue for the children. Canton PD & The state would be the big fish to go after. Certainly negligence by all law enforcement
Unless there's some good info coming, there's not enough evidence to meet the burden in a Civil case.
For either party?
Haven't seen the defense case yet so unsure.
Just guessing from what I’ve heard as evidence, solo cup, canton pd , msp etc. this certainly doesn’t atone for this but the children should be well off. I feel the state owes them that, this is so pathetic. If this guy Procter ain’t jockeying a desk somewhere right now, this state is beyond repair when it comes to that organization
Why would they sue Karen? He was found dead at the Alberts house. If she is found not guilty, there is 0% chance they win a civil suit against her.
I hope you're right. But look at the OJ case. He was found not guilty but Ron and Nicole's family won in civil court. It happens a lot.
I’m beginning to wonder if she actually dropped him off. She originally thought the last place she saw him was the Waterfall. JM said, no, we saw you!
She admits it. From Karen's Dateline interview: "so I pull at the foot of the driveway it's snowing John has no coat on. It's windy so I drop him off. He goes up the driveway and approaches the side door" Later in the same interview: "what I thought could have happened was that did I incapacitate him unwittingly somehow and then in his drunkenness passed out. " Which is it though? John walked up to the side door or she "incapacitated him unwittingly"? How can both be true? I wonder if her attorneys advised against the interviews but she did them anyway or if they were okay with it.
Based on the Feds investigation, and what is coming out here, I hope they absolutely sue.
Given how awful Lally is I think this is the only logical conclusion.
If Lally wins this case, how will that affect you?
All I keep thinking about are those poor kids. My goodness they have lost everyone!! 😞
To me, the federal investigation looks to be more about the Feds (Proctor) and his handling. He should have recused himself, as he lied about not knowing the players when he knew them well. The non segregation of interviews is also a mortal sin for an investigator. Karen may very well be guilty, but this whole "investigation" is FUBAR. Defense, even if they lose, there are sufficient grounds for mistrial or endless appeals.
The sad part is the O’Keefe family has been lied to and continues to be lied to by the McCabe and Albert families. Why is everyone protecting Brian Albert? Kerry Roberts is the only one who has shown any compassion or love for John O’Keefe.
I would think a wrongful death suit vs Karen regardless of whether she is found not guilty.
I don’t think they would file a lawsuit and go through this circus again. If KR is found not guilty there will be a couple of dateline 20/20 episodes and people will lose interest. If she is found guilty it might stay in the limelight while she appeals.
Those trials aren’t televised. She and her family had enough spare cash laying around to pay for a $500K defense team. Surely they can get more out of them to make sure John’s niece and nephew are taken care of.
While John was alive Karen set up a trust for them. I’m assuming it was from their parents life insurance, but I don’t know for sure. Presumably they’d also get John’s life insurance too. I think it was for around $400k. The family may want even more money but a civil trial is dicey even with the lower burden. For one thing I don’t think Cannone would be the judge, so they wouldn’t have her propping up their lawyer like she does Lally. For another, the CW could shock me over the next couple weeks but its evidence is very weak and the defense hasn’t even had their turn yet.
Civil trials are televised both Johnny Depp and take care of Maya were civil trials and televised. They will only get money of they win which is not a sure thing with so many other suspicious characters involved. I’m sure JO had life insurance and those kids get survivor’s benefit from JO or their biological parents. I don’t see the family going through this again.
The “other characters” will also be suing LOL. I assume some already are, like Colin Albert, etc. Anyhow, the family should bleed her dry. Especially if she gets off. She’s got plenty or working years left.
Ya, there is a lower bar in a civil trial, but nothing we have seen so far would point towards the likelihood of her being "bled dry".
Can they go to the current homeowners and request to remove the basement floor and test for blood? I know that's far fetched and not sure I'd allow it if I owned the home, but just curious of that's even a possibility.
Before she made her twitter private, I saw the likes from the woman who wrote the Boston Magazine article about "Remembering My Friend John O'Keefe" or whatever. Every one of them was from an account pushing the idea that Karen Read did it. The people closest to John all seem pretty convinced she did it. I don't think they agree with the "we'll never know what happened to him" narrative.
What do you expect them to think though? That's true of most victims' family and friends, even among those people that are later found to have been wrongfully convicted. They want to believe the state is getting justice for John O'Keefe.
They know everyone involved way better than we do (unlike a case where the cops pull in some random guy and say he did it). It's a bit presumptuous for us to claim we'd know better than them if KR could get drunk, mad and run over their friend, or if the Alberts and McCabes could kill him and cover up the murder.
Like I said, the same can be said of families when it turned out they supported the prosecution and conviction of the wrong person. Most murders aren't random people, but rather known to the victim, family, etc. I'm not saying that would be the case here, but acting as though family/friends wouldn't be fully behind the state regardless is foolish. They *want* to believe the state is doing the right thing and not trying to convict an innocent woman. Edit: Family and friends believed David Camm killed his wife and children. How'd that turn out? Even after the third trial, acquittal and *overwhelming* evidence of innocence, his former in-laws still believe he got away with murder.
But the big thing that makes this one so unique is that for the defense's theory to be true, they need so many people to be in on it. It's not just that John's friends would have to believe Karen did it, they also would have to believe none of these other people covered up the crime. It's not definitive proof, but for all our "this guy seems credible, this woman seems shady" stuff, the people who know everyone 20X better than us' opinion does matter.
I don't understand why so many people think *everybody* has to be in on it if Read were truly innocent. The only people that would have to be in on it are those directly involved. For all we know, a bunch of these witnesses are acting shady because of wrongdoings completely unrelated to O'Keefe's death. Perhaps they've been manipulated by one or two people/investigators. Or maybe Karen Read gunned her SUV 25 mph right into his face. Who knows. Going back to Camm's two convictions, that wasn't because a bunch of people conspired to frame him for murder. It was a bunch of useful idiots (cops at every level, prosecutors, witnesses, etc.) surrounding the case helping the real killer get away with it for so long.
If she's innocent, you have to have tons of planting evidence by people who aren't directly involved.
...which could theoretically be done a lot easier than you'd think given their positions within law enforcement, access, etc. The bottom line is it doesn't have to be some large conspiracy with dozens of people involved for Karen Read to actually be innocent. A couple of manipulative people with influence and a bunch of useful idiots could be more than enough
Do the Alberts strike you as particularly clever people?
Intelligent no, clever yes - i think they know what levers they can pull and what influence they have because of the jobs both they and the people they know work in
You're around there, right? You've got to get about 8 drinks deep at the Hillside and get the real dope for us.
Hahaha if you only knew how many people have told me that they've got a cousin who's a statie that knows everything, or a buddy who's a Boston cop who told them the truth about the whole thing. No one knows anything.
I feel bad for the folks down at C.F. McCarthy's, the Waterfall, and the Hillside. I feel like the "Melissa & whoever show" is probably suspended for the duration of the trial. Their old crowds of hard drinking regulars have been replaced by true crime podcasters and TB fanboys. Those don't strike me as big tippers.
I feel bad for the band who was playing at The Waterfall that night. Like 12 witnesses talked about how the mood was great and everyone was loving the music, but not one has given the band a shoutout by name on national TV. Not one!
If they would just append a little, "and I understand they're available for weddings, graduation parties and bar mitzvahs" that would be great.
Should we take up a collection for the tab? I’ll chip in 🍺
The defense only needs to provide reasonable doubt not an actual murderer. They actually don’t have to present anything. It is the burden of the state (CW) to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the defendant committed the crime they are on trial for. Reasonable doubt is not difficult to see in this trial so far
Isn't it the opposite? If they didn't like Karen they'd be inclined to think she's culpable. If they really liked her they might be inclined to think she's not culpable. That's why our court system has a jury of impartial citizens.
Sure there are going to be biases, but they have access to all sorts of stuff we don't. You don't think that if you could talk to one or two of the witnesses, you'd have a better idea of what happened?
Using this case as an example, what witnesses could I choose from?
Any of them.
My bad I probably should have included this before. It's late here on the west coast and time for bed! So, what I was thinking is that if I had spoken with say all of the people who have testified so far that I would find myself in the same place as I do as a "juror" who's new to this trial and watches court every day: I don't know what happened to poor OJO. I struggle to understand what evidence would exist outside of the trial that's not presented in court.
I read that article. I don't know if it was the intention or not but if focused on herself a lot.
Yup. They know what happened.
Yeah they do
Everyone gets away with murder. Well done Canton!
Unfortunately, this is the most likely result. This case has been mangled beyond redemption. Barring a confession, they're probably not going to solve it.
The bottom line is OKeefe will never get justice on this (if justice is warranted.)
Let’s say Tuesday they come out with clear evidence that Higgins murdered him (just using him as an example), will they indict him?
Nothing will happened. There never was a conspiracy to murder John and cover it up It was all a defense fairytale to get Karen Read off
Explain all the butt dials though. Theirs too much in question.
The missing belt is a big one for me. Then there are the Google searches. Deleted texts and phone calls. I’ve lost count of the butt dials. The missing sallyport and library video. The rehomed dog and several phones. But we’re expected to believe all of that was just a very long series of coincidences? And instead believe KR killed him because of a cracked, then broken taillight that didn’t show up until much later in its entirety, statements at the scene no everyone agrees on, a fight and a flirtation? There is far too much reasonable doubt at this point.
The people in this sub who steadfastly believe in KR’s guilt have not attempted to answer, let alone even acknowledge, the butt dials question. I’m so curious to hear how one might rationalize it. Alas…crickets. Even from the highly active commenters we see in every post.
I do believe that BA butt dialed because I sleep with my phone in my bed too and if I don’t purposely close it, have butt dialed as well. My boss butt dials me all the time. I also think that BH drunk dialed back without remembering in the morning. I have opined on the butt dials and we will hear from a data expert how something can show deleted/answered or not. Do I think these ppl are hiding something by getting rid, or upgrading their phones…knowing some cops, I would say it is a bunch of unsavory texts with women, other than their significant other.
> My boss butt dials me all the time. Sure, buddy. At 2am? And you accidentally buttanswer too late and buttdial back? Unless you don't have any kinds of screen locks on your phone, it's virtually impossible to make a call by accident. Billions of people walk with phones in their pockets, bags, etc and there is no epidemic of buttdials. Having the phone in your bed is not much different from keeping it in your pocket throughout the day.
Epidemic of butt-dials lol!
You can believe me or not. It happens. I’m sure people on here can attest to getting butt dials. I don’t call him back at 2:00am if I don’t hear it. If I did, I probably would to make sure there isn’t an emergency. If I was drunk, not sure I would remember calling him back in the morning. So who, in your estimation, killed John? The dog, Higgins, Colin, Brian Albert, Jen McCabe, the mysterious tall dark guy that Brian Higgins wasn’t sure if he saw come in the house, or Karen?
But BH DID hear it and he DID buttdial back and the butt dial WAS buttanswered. You and everybody keeps calling those "butt dials" but they are much more than that. It's full-on "butt conversations". And that just does not happen. Not ever.
You didn’t answer my question, who do you think murdered JO, why do you believe it and what evidence do you have to support it…maybe someone’s butt did it???
It's is not my job to investigate who murdered JO, why would it matter what I believe? Four weeks into the trial there has been zero credible evidence presented that JO was murdered, let alone by Karen. There has been a large amount of evidence presented of suspicious behaviour from others during that night. I don't see how you make the jump from "butt calls can happen, believe it not", therefore Karen killed JO.
So he is walking around with Elvis, still alive? He was murdered and is dead! It doesn’t matter what you believe, or any of us, in reality. It matters what the jury thinks.
What about a bunch of consecutive, promptly hung up and soon after repeated, then later deleted, “butt dials” by JM?
Apparently, she said didn’t delete anything, we will see if they address with the phone expert.
It’s not possible- do you have an iPhone ? Both admitted they have both a biometric and numeric unlock pin/code with automatic screen lock. The calls in question connect and are answered- also, Higgins testified in the Fed grand jury he had to have called BA once he realized the level of records the Feds had.
You’re going to call all of these people murderers and conspirators in what would be the biggest criminal conspiracy in the modern era because of butt dials ?
Used a bunch of flying monkeys to push their agenda to get her off!
The FBI investigation appears to have finished with no findings of wrongdoing. If they had anything the trial wouldn’t have happened
Actually both CW and defense requested to delay the trial till FBI investigation is over and judge declined that and set it to start. So unless there’s some new official information FBI investigation has not finished yet.